Author Topic: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE  (Read 7955 times)

Belief10

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Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« on: February 11, 2016, 08:39:11 PM »
First post here, though following this blog for 2-3 years.

I'm early 30's, single,  and thinking about changing careers because I have a somewhat oppressive feeling that I'm wasting my life. I've been interested in psychology (first college major) but eventually ended up with an advanced business degree. I recently applied to a program which will allow me to either do social work or become a therapist. Haven't decided for sure if I will start, hence the post. I don't feel like I'm making a difference in peoples' lives in what I currently do. Always sort of felt I've been in the wrong field. Sort of gets my spirits down.

I currently work in finance at a bank making $68,000. $45,000 in the 401K. I recently have no debt other than investment properties debt. On the side, my business partner and I have 5 houses that will be paid off in less than 15 years, and they cash flow, and we will try to pick one up a year. I also own a property that I originally bought to live in, but just rented it out, making a nice profit each month while I rent (at a premium) in a great part of town and partake of many of the delights this world has to offer. Still, if I continue down this road (depending on when I get married and how many kids I have) I could probably be FIRE in 10 or 15 years, maybe 20.

If I changed careers, I would be mid-30's when I finished, green to a field, and considering while in school I would either have to quit work completely or take a much lower paying job, and part-time, I would probably be roughly $50,000 in debt, starting at a lower wage when school is out, likely in the $40,000 to $50,000 range.

Maybe I'm wrong, but my impression around here is that there's this notion that we grind it out and pay the time necessary to become FIRE, without really regarding the true "cost" to that mindset. I think to myself, why bust my ass (more like force myself) at a job that feels meaningless just so that I can be better off financially? Why not find something that I really enjoy doing, and then, having much more fulfillment, not worry so much about money in the sense that I'm working towards FIRE. I have the tendency to over complicate and over analyze things, so maybe I'm just getting in my own way and already know what to do.

There are definitely a couple of themes to this post, but curious if other people notice the tension in working towards FIRE, but at what "cost"? Also, has anyone out there changed careers to something more fulfilling but you took a financial hit to do it? Is it worth it to have less money but like the work and feel like your contributing to society and actually using your gifts?

GrowingTheGreen

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2016, 08:58:13 PM »
There is definitely a balance you have to strike between "the now" and "the FIRE". It's tough. I try to compromise between the two and focus on doing things that truly make me happy now, but still trying to live a frugal lifestyle. If 15 years of happiness delays my FIRE by 5, I'm ok with that. It's a very personal decision though.

Larabeth

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2016, 09:03:18 PM »
I work a job as a 911 dispatcher.  It is literally killing me at this point.  12 hour shifts, sedentary, with no serious pay (I make ~$36,000).  The really bad part is, I don't know where I could go to make more without a degree and with my lack of skill.

Noodle

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2016, 06:32:15 AM »
Well, I think the "grind it out" attitude tends to be more for people who are a few years away from a big payout or FIRE as opposed to someone like yourself who is closer to the beginning of the journey. What might be worth thinking about, though...

It sounds like you definitely need a change and there's nothing wrong with that. But is the change you need one that will cost $50,000? Before you commit to big loans for a career that is likely to have low pay (and how does this affect your business plans with the rentals?) have you considered looking around for a different variation on your current job or degree--maybe something that would pay less (like working for a smaller company or a non-profit) without putting you in debt as well? I always recommend the book Decisive by Chip and Dan Heath when it comes to decisions like this.

I mean, I am in the FI but not RE group--I've always had a lower salary for a career I liked and I'll be retiring on the traditional schedule--for me, being Mustachian means more financial security in a volatile field rather than RE. So I am not an advocate of working a job you hate for the money.

Gray Matter

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2016, 06:45:26 AM »
I'm a little biased right now, because a few months ago I went to get an ADD assessment, and the therapist doing the assessment ended up tapping into some deeply buried crap that I didn't even know was there, and we've been doing intense work every since.  It is transformative and I feel like I'm living again--it's hard to describe what it's like, but I can say it's been such an incredible gift.

My therapist left a more lucrative career in the banking industry at age 40 to get his PsyD, got licensed at age 45ish, and is now doing this kind of work for less pay than he was making 10 years ago.  But he seems really happy.  And I am so GRATEFUL every single day that he did this, because he is gifted and talented and is literally changing and saving lives.

I, too, made a mid-life career change in the past two years (leaving the financial services and moving to the non-profit world), taking a 50% pay cut in the process.  It has not been without its challenges (fundraising!), but I have zero regrets.  I'd rather feel like I'm making a difference in the world and postpone FIRE than keep slogging through.  I am, however, older than you (was 43 when I made the transition) and had just had enough of the slogging.

Good luck with this decision!

Bbbent

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2016, 07:38:27 AM »
I'm a little biased right now, because a few months ago I went to get an ADD assessment, and the therapist doing the assessment ended up tapping into some deeply buried crap that I didn't even know was there, and we've been doing intense work every since.  It is transformative and I feel like I'm living again--it's hard to describe what it's like, but I can say it's been such an incredible gift.

I went through this exact same thing after a near breakdown in 2010. I already knew I was some degree of ADD (no H) but getting at why was positively transformative. 

Well, maybe that's not quite right. I didn't change that many things, but now I -understand- why I am who I am, and find ways to make it a strength wherever possible.

To the OP: don't grind it out.  You're too young for that.   If it were me I'd sell off one or two of the properties to pay for the schooling.  And yes, you're overanalyzing.  If you were 55 it'd be a different story. But you're not.  Make a change now while you can.

Oh, and I'll give you the same advice I give to my 5 daughers.  DO NOT CREATE ANY PEOPLE.
(Well, not until you're really ready.   You've got plenty of time for that. And then keep it to a nice reasonable number. See Bbbent. Bbbent had 5 daughters. Don't be like Bbbent) 


tyleriam

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2016, 10:06:05 AM »
I have some experience in this department, my wife just last week finally got her LPC (Licensed Professional Counselor) after having started in school 10 years ago.  We have $90,000 in student loans to payoff as a result of the Master's degree.  If she wanted to work full time (we do not want her to, have a son, want her to be home when he gets off school) she could make $55K or so.  Instead she works contract during the hours our son is in school.  Those are the negatives.  The positive is that my wife was BORN to be a counselor.  She recently took a personality profile and the #1 career for her...Mental Health Counselor.  If you ask her what she would do if she won $100MM in the lottery, she confidently says she would travel for a year and then be a counselor where she works today.  She literally LOVES what she does and looks forward to going to work every day.  That is pretty awesome.

So back to my thoughts for you.  I would be quadruple sure this is what you want to do before you go to school for it.  I would highly recommend you take a personality profile, see if it comes back that counseling/therapy would be a field for you.  I would research where you would want to work (in school, social work type places, private practice) and if social work you could volunteer or go ahead and get a social worker job.  My wife worked as a social worker and she could probably make $45-50K as director without the $90,000 Master's Degree.  You won't be able to counsel people but you will be helping people.  Not a huge spread between the salaries though from what I can tell.

I would also warn you that not all of the people you help will be deserving, in fact my wife has told me probably 1 out of 10 clients is truly deserving the vast majority of people receiving social services are professionals at milking the system.  She does not get upset by that whereas that would INFURIATE me.

Something else, my wife started her Master's at Georgia State then when we got married and moved to Florida she lost a ton of hours.  These schools don't accept each others hours, my guess is because of the liability of the worst case scenario...client suicide with a lawsuit shortly after graduation could involve the school.  So that is one thing.  After we moved she finished her degree at Capella University a for profit online school.  Capella was MASSIVELY more expensive that Georgia State so I would warn you about Capella in that sense.  Also I will say it appears there is basically no weight given to what school your degree comes from at least in the jobs we have looked at for my wife.  It is a check box, do you have the degree, do you have the license?  It's not like in business or law school where the school ranking matters.  I would HIGHLY recommend attending a cheap, local, not for profit school.  The cheapest accredited program you can find.  I would hit it hard and get through it and not plan to move for ANY reason until you are finished.

Also, depending on your state licensure requirements you will have to work for several years unlicensed, in our case it was 3 whole years.  My observation with that is the only places that employ unlicensed counselors are social services/court appointed type places.  The really nice employers, private, non profit, VA hospitals, those sorts of folks wait for you to sort of serve your time in the dreggy places and you are licensed before they will hire you so there is that.  In my wife's caase she wants to work in that sort of place so for her she has loved it, I am begging her to get out of there.  There was literally a shooting in her parking lot 2 weeks ago.  She has numerous clients that have committed multiple murders, brutal rapes, you name it they have done it.

Overall I would categorize the Mental Health Counseling profession as almost a calling versus a good way to earn a living.  The degrees, internships, and then unlicensed work required (in our case 3 years of it) turns it into a minimum 5 year investment with mega debt before you can earn a minimal salary it is literally a losing proposition.  After you are licensed you can make $50K maybe, 45 more likely you will have been accumulating interest on the $50K for several years and then it will take you several more to payoff the debt so I would say rule of thumb, it takes 10 years, a full decade to bust through the school, the internship, the pre-licensing period, and then buckle down eat beans and rice and payback the student loans (most people take 20 years to pay them back).  We joke that you need to be independently wealthy to go into the counseling profession.

So all in all, I don't think slogging it out in a career you hate is mandatory.  I do however think that counseling/therapy, for the most part, is a money loosing proposition.  Something you make a lot of financial sacrifices to do because you love it.  If my wife had not LOVED it and I had my full say I would have had her stay in social work, within a couple years she was being offered program director positions that paid $45K a year with benefits with just her undergraduate degree which was already paid for.  Financially that would have been a great option to help people in non profit/service type career.  She, like a lot of others, felt called to the counseling branch of the field.  She loves to listen to people, sympathies with them, and analyze their thoughts and behaviors to help them find solutions to their problems. 

Rambling/long post but I think my/our experience here might help you decide.  If you have any questions feel free to ask.

Langer83

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2016, 03:05:40 PM »
You feel like you're wasting your life. That's definitely not a good feeling and it may be worth a major career change to address that issue. But I'd also keep in mind that:

a) A lot of people think meaning is one of the most important things to seek in a career, but to me that may be asking for too much. I think it's easier to find meaning in your hobbies and volunteer activities than in your job, so it may be worth pursuing some new activities along those lines to get away from the "wasting your life" feeling. If you could keep your current job and find meaning outside your career, you'd be way better off financially. And expectations play such a big role in happiness. If you expect your job to provide much of the meaning in your life, but it's really just a way to pay the bills, then you'll be unhappy even if you have a decent job all things considered.

b) It's common to think the "grass is always greener" elsewhere, but you don't know how you'll actually feel with your move until you've made it. Dan Gilbert's "Stumbling on Happiness" is a well-known book that describes how people are not very good at predicting what will make them happier in the future. I have several friends who work as social workers and therapists--it's a really tough career. You may feel like you're really helping people, but the downsides are serious--terrible pay for the amount of education you need, intense stress from dealing with clients (people in abusive relationships, addicted to drugs, suicidal, etc.), lots of tedious paperwork, and uncertain financing (Medicaid cuts, stingy insurers, etc.).

thriftyc

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2016, 04:49:13 PM »
I worked a job that I hated for 10 years.  I am now on the cup of FI and may be going back to school myself to retrain to a more enjoyable career. Pay will be lower in my case as well.  Wish I did it sooner.

I suggest making the change now, if it brings you to a job that you enjoy and you whistle on your drive into work for a few years, its so worth it.  Wish I did!  You may not want to retire as early anyhow if your truly enjoy what you do...

glider

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2016, 05:06:55 PM »
Oh, and I'll give you the same advice I give to my 5 daughers.  DO NOT CREATE ANY PEOPLE.
(Well, not until you're really ready.   You've got plenty of time for that.

Have to disagree with that, she is in her early 30s. There is not "plenty of time", if anything she is on the downward curve.

winostache

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2016, 05:16:19 PM »
Maybe I'm wrong, but my impression around here is that there's this notion that we grind it out and pay the time necessary to become FIRE, without really regarding the true "cost" to that mindset. I think to myself, why bust my ass (more like force myself) at a job that feels meaningless just so that I can be better off financially? Why not find something that I really enjoy doing, and then, having much more fulfillment, not worry so much about money in the sense that I'm working towards FIRE.

I would say that the MMM approach would be to find lower cost ways of fulfilling this hole in your life.  Are there ways to trial-run this idea?  Volunteer for Big Brother/Big Sister, visit prisoners, intern or work part time as an admin for a counseling service? (I don't know about counseling, so these are guesses.)

This is a big change, both in life and financially, so you need to move past the analyzing and start experimenting with this.  Maybe volunteering will be enough or it will crystallize your desire to become a counselor and you can be confident that it's worth putting off FIRE for a few more years.

PS-If you're thinking you don't have time for any of this, I've seen so many stories on this forum about people finding more time.  In the same vein of challenging every line item on your budget, challenge where all your time goes and how you can make the most of it.

pbkmaine

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2016, 05:19:31 PM »
I second all the advice on being sure of this before you spend time and money on training. Specifically, you should volunteer in the field. Work on a helpline or in a shelter. Anything that will give you some idea of what you are getting into. One of my best friends left banking to get her MD, trained for years, and ending up hating what the medical field has become. She retired early, and has told me that if she needs money she would rather work in Starbucks than in corporate medicine.

obstinate

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2016, 08:51:04 PM »
Worth noting that psychology is quite a common "don't know what to do" major, so there is a very high supply of people coming out of school with that degree. I wonder what your career prospects would be.

Do you really think you're going to feel better about things if you are working a bottom of the barrel job, with much less savings and making a lot less money at 40? I think it's something worth considering.

LouLou

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2016, 09:44:02 PM »
Do you hate your job?  I didn't get the sense that you do.  I think the main issue is that you are looking for meaning.  I think that all thoughtful people search for meaning in their lives.

Meaning does not have to come from your career or your job.  It can, but it doesn't have to. So I would start exploring ways to add meaning to your life.  What population do you want to work with?  If you are thinking about counseling adolescents, get connected to a mentoring program or college readiness program for teens.   If you want to help adults with serious mental health issues, find out how to volunteer at programs that they interact with.  You may find that is enough until you FIRE and can volunteer full time.  (Some of the happiest people I know in social justice / public interest fields are retired and volunteer nearly full time).  Or you may realize that you have a calling that you need to answer.  If that's the case, then find a cost-effective way to make that happen.

tobitonic

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2016, 10:38:03 PM »
Some of the happiest people I know in social justice / public interest fields are retired and volunteer nearly full time).

This sounds lovely. What kinds of volunteering opportunities have they tapped into full time?

Freedomin5

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2016, 12:01:21 AM »
There are ways to make money in the mental health field, though it does help to go all the way educationally and get a doctorate. At the very least, you get paid to do your internship (unlicensed) hours - albeit at a very low salary. Still, you make enough to live off of.

I've had friends who joined the Air Force/Army and had their tuition taken care of (in exchange for serving several years post-graduation). Their starting salary was quite high. Friends who ended up in forensic psychology and worked in the justice system also ended up with high salaries. There are also scholarships if you work with an underserved population.

Switching to the mental health field does not necessarily mean that you need to take a severe financial hit/go into debt, either during school or after graduation/licensure.

I would suggest, if you're not aleady doing so, to volunteer first with the population you want to work with. Sometimes, people romanticize the idea of therapy and "making a difference in people's lives" and then they find out that reality is very different. For example, non-profit charities that offer free/low-fee counseling services may value a person with your business background. That's one of the areas of need in the mental health profession. Therapists are often great people-helpers, but not always business-minded, and sometimes run into problems with simple thngs like business plans, etc. Offering your set of skills to counseling professionals may put you in contact with mentors and allow you to get a feel of the day in/day out of being a therapist.

RamonaQ

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2016, 07:08:34 AM »
I made the decision to change careers to a much less lucrative but more fulfilling one when I was in my early 30s and I'm so glad I did.  I used to work in marketing making about $80k, now I'm a librarian making about $40k (plus about 6k from a side hustle babysitting).

But, I hedged my bets when I made that change.  First, I started library school part-time while still working full-time in marketing.  I vowed not to go into debt for my degree - I got scholarships or grants or paid for it out of pocket.  It took a little longer that way but I could go year-round, so it didn't delay me that much.  Then, I got a part-time librarian job while still working full-time in marketing.  I'd work a couple weekends per month, just to get experience.  After doing that for a while and deciding that I wanted to do it for real, I started looking for full time librarian jobs.

I did this gradual approach partially because I've studied a lot of things I loved and then grew to dislike when it came time to work in that field in the real world.  I didn't want to give up on a well-paying career without being darn sure I'd be happier in a different one.

spokey doke

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2016, 09:16:10 AM »
To echo some key points...from tyleriam - making quadruple sure the counseling thing will be the thing for you before ditching the well paying job.

And from RamonaQ - the hedging of bets, rather than throwing your fate into the winds of graduate school and a new profession...and along those lines...how are your GRE scores?  Have you shopped for grad. programs?  Investing in these while you are still working are important.  One of the best things I did when I was sorting out career choices and graduate schools was to seriously buckle down and prep for raising my GRE scores.  It paid huge dividends.

Cougar

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2016, 01:13:07 PM »

you need to figure out if you would like to be in a psychology career at 50, 60 and 70. if you would like to do that rather than be full time retired with 100% of your time as your own; then change to psychology.

I found out in the past few years that I have that same love for astrophysics. I could do almost any job in that field, but like you I'm going to need an advanced degree to do anything more than cleaning up the lab would be over 50 by that point; so I missed any chance more than just having it as a hobby but you haven't yet.

if you want to do that when everyone else wants to be going on a cruise; then do it; else just concentrate on retirement.

LouLou

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2016, 02:29:00 PM »
Some of the happiest people I know in social justice / public interest fields are retired and volunteer nearly full time).

This sounds lovely. What kinds of volunteering opportunities have they tapped into full time?

One person is a jack-of-all-trades person at a food bank and homeless shelter.  Typically volunteers 30 to 40 hours a week, doing whatever needs to be done to keep things moving.  Extra food needs to be sorted? Sure!  Go to the park and feed the homeless?  Okay!  Another person has a business background, and focuses on thinking of new ventures for an artistic institution.  He gets SO EXCITED about the ideas, and works with everyone to help execute them when the board adopts them.  I also know of a retired couple who lives in a RV more than half a year.  They research volunteer opportunities that interest them around the US, and then travel there in the RV and work for free.  I would say that if you are FIRE, you could go to a non-profit and say "My skills are X, Y, Z and I want to do them for free!" many of them would be more than happy to accept.

And I will say, volunteering seems a whole lot more fun that being an employee.  You can disagree with decisions without worrying about paying the bills.

tobitonic

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2016, 07:02:17 PM »
Some of the happiest people I know in social justice / public interest fields are retired and volunteer nearly full time).

This sounds lovely. What kinds of volunteering opportunities have they tapped into full time?

One person is a jack-of-all-trades person at a food bank and homeless shelter.  Typically volunteers 30 to 40 hours a week, doing whatever needs to be done to keep things moving.  Extra food needs to be sorted? Sure!  Go to the park and feed the homeless?  Okay!  Another person has a business background, and focuses on thinking of new ventures for an artistic institution.  He gets SO EXCITED about the ideas, and works with everyone to help execute them when the board adopts them.  I also know of a retired couple who lives in a RV more than half a year.  They research volunteer opportunities that interest them around the US, and then travel there in the RV and work for free.  I would say that if you are FIRE, you could go to a non-profit and say "My skills are X, Y, Z and I want to do them for free!" many of them would be more than happy to accept.

And I will say, volunteering seems a whole lot more fun that being an employee.  You can disagree with decisions without worrying about paying the bills.

Thanks for getting back to me on this. You've just given my wife and I some more ideas for ways to better society beyond socially responsible day jobs and charitable donations. I love the idea of just spending all week helping at a food bank / shelter, as well as the idea of traveling around the country in an RV pursuing volunteer opportunities.

Genevieve

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2016, 07:22:02 PM »
I've taken a ~3-year detour to change careers, and I'm so glad I did it. But I only made ~$45,000, and my potential earnings are more in my new career as well. It's still a helping profession, but a well paid one. 

I seriously considered getting a degree in psychology to become a counselor. I even took a freshman psychology course at the local university. I eventually decided that I didn't want to go through 6 years of more school to do it. I've decided to volunteer at a mental health organization to serve that population without the 6-year detour and lower salary.

But for you, OP, you have a few rental houses? Why are you so far away from FI? You might be closer to FI than you think. Regardless, if you could break even on the rental income + part time job + school for a few years, you can start to save more if you need more once you are out of school in a few years.

Murse1001

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2016, 09:39:13 PM »
I think there has been some awesome advice to the original question.  I am going to post anyway, because I did something very similar to this about 7 years ago.  Take what you will from my hindsight. 

I was a banker, sales side of things until about 32 when I quit and went back to school to become a nurse (or "M"urse if you prefer).  I did so because I felt my occupation was rather dishonest (this was right before the financial crisis, so I wasnt too of base).  I, however, was not Mustachian when I made this decision, but going back to school and significantly downsizing my life to afford that decision were the seeds.  So I think you have a significant advantage on me from that stand point.  When I started school my net worth after selling my townhome was about zero.

I really enjoyed the education piece for the first 2-3 years.  Being back in college as an adult was liberating.  Not intimidated like when i was younger, but rather there to learn personally and professionally.  Being around youth is invigorating, but it did drag on towards the end. Also I got in debt, about 48K.  I worked, but my program was time intensive and so I only was able to make enough for life "expenses" which had been dropped to about 20K a year. The education and books were financed.

For the first two years I loved my new career!  I still enjoy it much more than my previous in most respects. However,  most of my extra money in those first two years went to pay off that college debt.  Outside of minimum 401K contributions I saved very little. Now, although still loving the job in general, the bad hours, bureaucracy and massive inefficiencies of healthcare have started to take its toll on me. I want to be a nurse on my terms and financially I do not have the resources to do that for several more years.  The education and initial lower wages have set me back from where I could be. I think most people who are attracted to this blog probably tend to have independent type of personality that would rather do things on their own terms. No matter what that "thing" is.

Bottom line.  I'm glad I did it!  Partially though, that is because i learned that consumerism did not equal happiness and I still live on less than 20K a year.  You, however, already know the benefits of that lifestyle.  I am more content with my career, but I fear over the next five years (the point I'll probably have enough F U money to be a nurse on my own terms) my job satisfaction may continue to decline.  You can't put a price on being able to help for a living though, and that alone is probably worth it to me.  If I were to do things different, i would have saved up the education money before and not financed it. This probably would have made me want it even more. Just make sure it is your current job that is creating dissatisfaction, not the general corporate life/bureaucracy/inefficiency.  You will probably have to deal with forms of that in any field no matter how altruist its ideal seems.

cats

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2016, 10:49:00 PM »
My two cents:

I love my job.  It's in a field I went to school for, the work is interesting, I feel it has value to society.  Most days I wake up, get ready for the office, and start thinking (in an excited way) about what I'm going to do at the office or how I'm going to solve XYZ challenge we've been having.  On top of all that, I make pretty decent money, have nice benefits, and my hours are generally fairly regular an not insane.

Despite all that, I've come to realize that giving 40+ hours a week to this job is not good for my health.  It's just stuff like...I HAVE to get up by a certain time 5 days a week, or that spending ~10 hours a day away from home makes it very hard to keep up with housework, or that regardless of how much of an effort I make to do things like take a walk at lunch, take the stairs instead of the elevator, etc., my phone still informs me that I walk more on the weekends than during the week, even if I'm not having an especially active weekend.  And the biggest evidence---EVERY person I know who has retired from our company looks massively happier and healthier within a few months of retiring, even if they also loved their jobs.  And, even though my coworkers are, by and large, very nice people...yes, there are still occasionally office politics to deal with and I'm not a huge fan.

On top of that, I do still sometimes wonder if I am really doing something "of value" with my life.  Every time I mention this fear to my husband he tells me I'm nuts.  I have a sneaking suspicion that I'm always going to struggle with this feeling, no matter how altruistic or "helping" a career I have or what I accomplish professionally/personally.

The takeaway here is that for me, having the option of not working (or working completely on my own schedule) is the best thing I can do for my health and well-being.  I might feel differently if my job didn't offer some sense of fulfillment/purpose, but I kind of realize that no job is likely to "fix" my periodic feelings of "not doing enough" with my life.  So for me, it makes sense to stick it out in a job that I like but that clearly has some issues (specifically, health impacts) in the interests of FIREing ASAP and then having the option of quitting or working on a part-time arrangement or whatever else seems to make the most sense when the time comes.  And, I'll be honest, I might not like my job so much if I thought I was going to have to be there another 20-30 years.  The idea of being there another 5 years is tolerable and I'm fairly certain we will be FI or quite close by then.  10 years, I can maybe manage if there's a good reason.  But the other week my husband jokingly suggested I could work there until I was 65 so that we wouldn't have to worry about health insurance and even though it was a joke, I kind of flipped out on him about it.  So yeah, office job until age 65 is NOT for me--I'd have to REALLY need the paycheck to put up with it.

So I guess that's my argument in favor of "grinding it out".

In your case, it does seem like starting off with some volunteer work and brainstorming whether or not there are any low-cost/no-cost options of getting the "fulfillment itch" that you seem to be having and testing out potential post-school jobs.  $50k of debt is not necessarily a crippling amount, but it's not nothing either.

Lmoot

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2016, 12:53:08 AM »
My question is why do you want to be FIRE? If the answer is that you want to escape your current situation, then why not just escape now...that way it won't matter as much when you become FIRE. Sometimes I feel that people take it too far and make the goal of FIRE into a race...through a gauntlet. If you're running barefoot across coals, then of course you have more desire to reach the end as quickly as possible. But what if you're taking a nice stroll on the beach (which here in FL might actually be comparable to walking on coals)?

For a few years I thought I wanted FIRE because that's what everyone else around me wanted and I didn't like my current field so it seemed even that much sweeter. However the more I thought about what I would do if I caught FIRE, the more sense it made to just do that crap now. What I could see myself doing was working in wildlife conservation, having fun seasonal jobs like being a tour guide, taking extended vacations, and living partly on rental income. So, 3 years ago I started working part time at the local zoo (while working full time), 2 1/2 years ago I rented my house out, 1 1/2 years ago I took 6 months off work (quit my full time job and took a LOA from the zoo) spent 7 weeks in 2 countries in Africa, came back and for the next 4 months I worked part time at the zoo, and as a seasonal tour guide at another tourist attraction. Rental income helped support me so that I didn't have to touch savings at all, and I was even able to add to savings during my hiatus.

It's been a year since I started working full time again in the same field I left, at a different company with more flexibility and now I work from home most days. I still work at the zoo part time and am on track to both pay off my house and buy my first official investment property by 2018. I got to experience every single aspect of my dream FIRE life and discovered that I would much rather enjoy a life interspersed with 6 month - 2 yr breaks from full time work every 5 years or so. Since I work full time in an industry in which I don't plan on building a career, I'm not worried about leaving every 5 years. Not to mention that 5 years is deemed respectable for the healthcare management industry so it wouldn't prevent me from easily getting another job, or even reapplying with the same company after a hiatus.

I'm having fun planning my next sabbatical, in 4 years. I'll be 35 by then and I want to go back to school for something in the environmental/ biological sciences. So right now I'm grinding and hustling towards that goal so that I can take 2 years off as a full time student without needing to work full time or take out student loans. Working towards a 5 year goal feels much more motivating for me than working towards a 15-20 year goal. Having a fairly short-term goal energizes me while working, and going back to work after a break makes me feel more engaged (even if just for the change in routine) in something that might otherwise wear me down.

I'm the type of person where I get bored with both too much time constraint and too much freedom. Taking frequent sabbaticals fits my personality more. Besides there's something puritanical about the idea that greater suffering reaps greater reward, and perhaps it's because I'm an atheist, but I rarely subscribe to that belief. I can't imagine a time where I am able-bodied and not working or earning money, doing something I love. I will probably never retire....I'll keep on going until I happen to either die working or die on sabbatical, but either way I'll be happy because I'll be right where I wanted to be in that moment. You have to do what's right for you, not what the majority wants to do.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 01:52:15 AM by Lmoot »

11ducks

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2016, 04:44:31 AM »
I'm changing careers- currently paying off a new graduate degree as I go, while working f/t. I figure life is too short to be unhappy at work. I live frugally and save, so if studying for a new career is what I choose to spend my money on, why not? It's better value for me than buying a car; or frittering it away on junk.

obstinate

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2016, 11:16:04 PM »
It's better value for me than buying a car; or frittering it away on junk.
Don't make specious arguments. In this case, pointing out that there are worse things to spend money on is irrelevant. You could light the money on fire too. There are infinite numbers of bad ways to spend money. That's not the question. The question is whether a given degree is a good way to spend money. Hopefully that is the case for you -- it's your decision. But try to stick to good justifications instead of bad ones like this.

Belief10

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2016, 10:15:33 AM »
Update:

Great advice from people. Thanks for that and giving me things to consider. I was accepted into the program this spring. Today I agreed on my last day with my employer in early September. They were unwilling to let me work part-time while doing full-time school since they really need someone full-time.

I really feel at peace about all of this and that I'm making a good decision. I've noticed I haven't been going on meaningless dates, haven't been wasting much time and energy on drinking/partying, and I have suddle clarity that this is my mission in life. It felt really good to realize my time at the bank is about over. An adventure is starting.

When I start school I'll have about $2,500 cash, $45,000 in the 401k, $10k in cash value in my insurance policy, and equity in houses nearing $225k. The one property I own just by myself nets me $800/mo and could be sold unlocking $40-$50k cash. Basically, cash poor but asset rich. I'd like to stretch myself and not liquidate. So I will be taking out student loans, hopefully from a guy I know, for 3-4%. I have no debt other than my rental mortgage.

I may take another class to snowball finishing, as working for $10-15 an hour part time doesn't have a lot of advantages when compared to finishing sooner. I hope to move in with my friend to lower housing costs by $300-$400/mo.

It's funny. My boss literally said he envies my for being able to to this. I've talked with him before about him looking forward until he's 59 to retire. Then he went on to say he couldn't do a change because he needs insurance. He has come sort of chronic condition. He sort of opened up. That's what I'm looking forward to helping with one day.

Gray Matter

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2016, 02:47:28 PM »
Congratulations on this bold move!  I think it sounds exciting, and you sound solid in your decision.

I responded to your earlier post, and since then, I have contemplated going back to school in counseling psychology myself and have applied to graduate school.  We are at different stages of life--I am 45, and am FI if we were to scale back our lifestyle--but I still enjoy learning new things, have always been fascinated by psychology, have been on my own personal journey in therapy, and enjoy doing meaningful work.

Good luck on your journey!

mancityfan

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Re: Decision: change careers or continue towards FIRE
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2016, 04:15:51 PM »
I changed my career at age 35, so can relate somewhat. In terms of where you are in life, if you are going to make a change for the remaining part of your work career, this is a good time. You will adjust with your money (I took a 40% cut initially with my change of career) and have time to plot a path forward with your finances and career. Just my two cents, in terms of life timing, not bad.