Which job offer should I choose?

[tedteddy]

I am a pharmacist and I have 2 job offers to choose from. Help me decide which one would be more mustachian.

My current employer pays 107k/year and provides no 401k. They will be giving me a 3% raise if I stay past my one-year anniversary.

I have an offer from CVS for 128k/year. They offer 5% 401k match.

The other offer is from the Indian Health Service. It would pay $82k/year (plus an $11k un-taxable housing stipend). I would also get free healthcare from tricare. I would be eligible for a pension after 16 years - Current pharmacist retirees are getting about 45k/year from the pension and it is indexed for inflation. They would also pay off my student loans at a rate of 20k/year. This job would not have much upward mobility in pay:
http://www.ihs.gov/DHR/includes/themes/newihstheme/display_objects/documents/paytables/PayTablePharmacist.pdf

Which job would be the best from an FI perspective?

I currently am 28, married, and have 3 kids. I am one year out of college.

Assets:
45k in retirement accounts
12k in brokerage account
3k in cash
2 cars, fully paid off

Liabilities:
160k in student loans
2k credit card debt

[johnny847]

The IHS offer only makes sense if you end up getting that pension. But 16 years is a long time. A lot could happen, whether it's on the IHS side or things in your life.

Would you be willing to commit for that long? Because this whole discussion is moot otherwise

[Jellyfish]

Does the CVS job come with any subsidized health benefits?  If not are you and your kids covered under your spouse's plan or will you have to pay for a plan out of pocket?  The potential difference in out-of-pocket cost for healthcare seems to me to be the only thing (from what you've written) that could possibly argue for taking the Indian Health Services job - based on the $$s. 

You are young and I wouldn't put too much weight on a pension with a 16 year time horizon...not many people stick at a job for that long.

[midweststache]

If you max out a 401k with CVS, you're still making $110,000 pre-tax and other deductions; with a tIRA, it's $104,500, and you're socking away $23,500/year. That's only $376,000 after 16 years ($421,000 with your current retirement) but that's not accounting for market growth (or the company match!).

If you account for the $11,000/year housing, you're making $93,000 (plus whatever healthcare costs you save on, although you've said little about the quality of CVS's healthcare plan). That's a pretty significant difference (almost $1,000/month less).

Initially, it seems like CVS offers a higher salary with better vehicles to access money if you RE.

Are there other factors in this job decision? (E.g. will you have to work super late at the CVS job, while the IHS allows for a more standard 9-5?)

[tedteddy]

You are young and I wouldn't put too much weight on a pension with a 16 year time horizon...not many people stick at a job for that long.

A large number of the people who work there do so until retirement. The total time required is 20 years BTW. I spent 4 years in the military which would count towards retirement (IHS is a uniformed service).

16 years is a long time, but it sure would be nice to retire at 43 with an inflation adjusted pension.

[tedteddy]

Are there other factors in this job decision? (E.g. will you have to work super late at the CVS job, while the IHS allows for a more standard 9-5?)

The 20k/year in load forgiveness is a huge factor for me. I have a 160k debt emergency!

The 20k/year in loan forgiveness is NOT taxable, btw.

There are other factors. IHS will give me a month of paid vacation starting the first year along with 10 paid holidays. CVS would  give me 1.5x pay and require me to work holidays. I would only get 2 weeks off per year and the scheduling would vary from week to week.

[pbkmaine]

I like security. I would take IHS.

[MaggieD]

I was just about to post asking on the tax status of the loan forgiveness.  That and the housing stipend total 31K, but depending on your federal + state marginal tax rate could be worth ~45-55K.  Adding that to the base of 82 puts you in the same ballpark as the CVS job.  Financially, they're pretty similar while you have loans, but the regular time off and ability to plan a schedule seems like a big perk for childcare, kid's activities, and such.

[MDM]

Which job would be the best from an FI perspective?

Have you created a spreadsheet to compare your options?  You might do that, share it, and thus get feedback on whether you have included significant items correctly.

[pbkmaine]

I was just about to post asking on the tax status of the loan forgiveness.  That and the housing stipend total 31K, but depending on your federal + state marginal tax rate could be worth ~45-55K.  Adding that to the base of 82 puts you in the same ballpark as the CVS job.  Financially, they're pretty similar while you have loans, but the regular time off and ability to plan a schedule seems like a big perk for childcare, kid's activities, and such.

Plus, a $40k per year pension (being conservative) with inflation protection built in is equivalent to $1million in a 401(k) at a 4% withdrawal rate.

[modulus]

Don't forget to consider job stress and staffing issues as well.  I don't know anything about how the work environment is at IHS, but I do know several CVS pharmacists personally.  None of them loves their job - they all range from hating their work lives to just tolerating it.

These are just some of the obstacles you may face: 13 hour days (8am-9pm here), understaffing issues (technician hours are constantly being cut), increased workload (they keep adding new telephone calls to be made for example, immunization quotas to meet), working holidays, dealing with the general public who can at times be very demanding and rude, and a metric-focused work environment where every keystroke is tracked and used in a report somewhere (you have a lot of numbers and expectations to meet).

The pay is very good and you get benefits like 401k match, employee stock purchase plan, and yearly bonuses if you become a pharmacist-in-charge, etc.  You just have to work very hard in a stressful job for that money.  Think about it very hard whether that stressful environment and risk of patient harm (and thus risk to your license if you make a serious mistake) is worth it.

Just my 2 cents.

[firewalker]

FWIW, I've never heard anyone speak of CVS in a satisfactory manner. Meanwhile, CVS pharms seem to rotate with great frequency. There may be a good reason for this pattern.

[johnny847]

Are there other factors in this job decision? (E.g. will you have to work super late at the CVS job, while the IHS allows for a more standard 9-5?)

The 20k/year in load forgiveness is a huge factor for me. I have a 160k debt emergency!

The 20k/year in loan forgiveness is NOT taxable, btw.

There are other factors. IHS will give me a month of paid vacation starting the first year along with 10 paid holidays. CVS would  give me 1.5x pay and require me to work holidays. I would only get 2 weeks off per year and the scheduling would vary from week to week.

Woah hold on. Was that in your post originally?

[LAGuy]

Can you actually take the pension after 16 years or is that just when you vest? Maybe they don't even let you take the thing until 65?

[Bearded Man]

16 years is a long time, a lot could change, you might not like the employer. Don't over estimate your ability to stomach it for that long. Cvs is the best gig out of your options.

[JJNL]

What about the COL in both jobs? The IHS looks like it might offer lots of jobs in very rural and thus very low COL areas. Would the rest of your life (apart from the free housing) also be cheaper while you work for IHS? I think you should not only compare salary and pensions, but also your potential savings rate in both jobs. If there's a lot more scope for frugality in IHS than in CVS, it might be worth it even if you don't stay until pensionable age.

Personally, for me the IHS offer looks like it is basically the MMM FIRE plan in 16 years without you having to do ANYTHING for it like investing yourself, cutting costs or whatnot. So the question would be: do you think you can stick it out for 16 years? And how long would it take you to FIRE on the CVS job? If you can do it in half the time there, you're potentially wasting 8 years of early retirement. But if it would take you anywhere near 16 years on CVS as well, the IHS plan sounds more secure and less stressful (judging from the comments about CVS jobs).

[kimmarg]

I would go IHS but I'm a federal worker already and hoping to push my husband that way. Federal benefits are good, hours are reasonable. Also you should have access to the TSP (gov't 401k) to save also. TSP has pretty much the lowest expense ratios around.

[midweststache]

Are there other factors in this job decision? (E.g. will you have to work super late at the CVS job, while the IHS allows for a more standard 9-5?)

The 20k/year in load forgiveness is a huge factor for me. I have a 160k debt emergency!

The 20k/year in loan forgiveness is NOT taxable, btw.

There are other factors. IHS will give me a month of paid vacation starting the first year along with 10 paid holidays. CVS would  give me 1.5x pay and require me to work holidays. I would only get 2 weeks off per year and the scheduling would vary from week to week.

That PTO seems like a pretty significant element of either job; for me, that would swing IHS in the front running, even with the lower salary (although I glossed over the loan forgiveness element, so that swings it in even higher favor).

Honestly, from the way you're describing things it seems like you want to take the IHS job. Go for it!

[Dee18]

I have a close friend, a very adventurous, minimalist guy.  Years ago he worked for the Indian Health Service on a reservation to pay back some med school loans.  After two years he decided he would rather pay the money.  There were several factors:  the isolation of the place, lack of adequate medical staff and resources, frustration with lack of prevention/treatment for the staggering rate of alcoholism, extremely long drive to buy good food, etc.  I do not know how the IHS assigns jobs, but my number one question would be do you get to choose your location? (My friend did not.) and will that be a good place for all of your family to live and make friends?

[zephyr911]

Factoring in all the IHS tax advantages, total compensation is in the same ballpark for both.

I suggest making this decision on a QOL basis. Either job will allow you to retire very young if that's what you want to do. Which one will make you happy tomorrow, and next month, and next year, while you're riding the rocket sled to riches?

If it were my dilemma today, I'd probably take IHS for the superior PTO and flexibility. You might get a crappy posting, but some of my most treasured experiences were in shitty places with a few good people to commiserate and laugh with. My sister and her DH spent two years on a remote reservation building their teaching resumes - like Dee18's friend, they found some aspects depressing, and they left before their babies grew up, but they'd never take it back. If your personal situation allows you to hang it out there on a gig like that, I cannot recommend it strongly enough - the enrichment and the broadened perspective that such experiences provide is incomparable and will stick with you forever.

[Apocalyptica602]

Congrats so far on 1) Being a Pharmacist and making lots of money and 2) Making lots of money and posting on MMM. Based on those two things alone you'll likely retire pretty early no matter what you do.

Other people have run the math with you, I'm going to echo the quality of life side of things.

My wife is a retail Pharmacist (at Walgreens, no real difference from CVS) and my best friend from high school is a retail Pharmacist at CVS as well.

... they both dislike their jobs. In my wife's case she is dealing with it because it pays about ~30k more a year than an equivalent hospital job (which she finds more fulfilling, but still not without it's stresses and odd hours)...and we're seeking to FIRE ASAP.

I don't know what kind of Pharmacy position you have now specifically, but retail Pharmacy shows you the worst side of the general public. Angry. Sick. People. A retail Pharmacy is also much more likely to get held up at gunpoint than say a hospital pharmacy or one on a reservation.

Just make sure to weigh all sides, emotional and financial before you make your decision. What's more worth getting out of bed for?

[Davids]

If your are confident you will work there guaranteed for 16 years, take the IHS job. If not then take the CVS job.

[zephyr911]

If your are confident you will work there guaranteed for 16 years, take the IHS job. If not then take the CVS job.

If that assessment is solely based on pay rates, you might want to qualify it a bit.
Depending on location and tax burden, the effective compensation for IHS, even without the pension, may still be higher for the first 8 years.

[Cheapballer]

Congrats so far on 1) Being a Pharmacist and making lots of money and 2) Making lots of money and posting on MMM. Based on those two things alone you'll likely retire pretty early no matter what you do.

Other people have run the math with you, I'm going to echo the quality of life side of things.

My wife is a retail Pharmacist (at Walgreens, no real difference from CVS) and my best friend from high school is a retail Pharmacist at CVS as well.

... they both dislike their jobs. In my wife's case she is dealing with it because it pays about ~30k more a year than an equivalent hospital job (which she finds more fulfilling, but still not without it's stresses and odd hours)...and we're seeking to FIRE ASAP.

I don't know what kind of Pharmacy position you have now specifically, but retail Pharmacy shows you the worst side of the general public. Angry. Sick. People. A retail Pharmacy is also much more likely to get held up at gunpoint than say a hospital pharmacy or one on a reservation.

Just make sure to weigh all sides, emotional and financial before you make your decision. What's more worth getting out of bed for?

I think apocalyptica hits it right on the money. With 3 kids, the month off of vacation is pretty compelling.  As a retail rph myself, I would kill for this time off.  I come into work on my days off often to get extra things done that corporate expects of me.

With retail, there's always OT available and the bonus puts you way ahead of the figure you've given.

Currently, I'm on a path to FIRE due to this forum and whitecoatinvestor. Which, changed my life completely. Good luck with your decision!



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[mm1970]

Don't forget to consider job stress and staffing issues as well.  I don't know anything about how the work environment is at IHS, but I do know several CVS pharmacists personally.  None of them loves their job - they all range from hating their work lives to just tolerating it.

These are just some of the obstacles you may face: 13 hour days (8am-9pm here), understaffing issues (technician hours are constantly being cut), increased workload (they keep adding new telephone calls to be made for example, immunization quotas to meet), working holidays, dealing with the general public who can at times be very demanding and rude, and a metric-focused work environment where every keystroke is tracked and used in a report somewhere (you have a lot of numbers and expectations to meet).

The pay is very good and you get benefits like 401k match, employee stock purchase plan, and yearly bonuses if you become a pharmacist-in-charge, etc.  You just have to work very hard in a stressful job for that money.  Think about it very hard whether that stressful environment and risk of patient harm (and thus risk to your license if you make a serious mistake) is worth it.

Just my 2 cents.

This is very important.

Also, don't lessen the importance of the time off - that is HUGE to me.  There's a big difference there.

But someone else mentioned the isolation with IHS - depends on your location. We have an IHS here in our city, so it's not necessarily isolated.

Anyway, my quick math that doesn't consider health care costs:

CVS:  $128k + 5% match (assuming 5% of your salary) = $128k + 6.4k = $134,400 with only 2 weeks off a year (10 days?).

IHS: $82k + $11k tax free (x1.2) + 20k tax free (x1.2) = $119,200 (assuming 20% tax bracket, lowballing here) + 30 days off a year.

One of my best friends is a pharmacist, started at Longs (now CVS), and quickly moved to a clinic setting.

There's a little more money at CVS, depending on the costs of healthcare, but at 119,200 a year, you are paid $458 a day, and you are getting 20 extra days per year.  So technically you are getting $518 per day that you work (260 work days - 30 days off).

CVS is $537 a day (250 work days).

[iknowiyam]

I suggest making this decision on a QOL basis. Either job will allow you to retire very young if that's what you want to do. Which one will make you happy tomorrow, and next month, and next year, while you're riding the rocket sled to riches?

^^ This. You will get there quickly either way. Do what allows you to have a better life in the meantime. CVS giving so much more money actually sounds like a red flag - there is a catch that you don't know about, perhaps. My husband and I are both in healthcare and this has been true for both his classmates and mine. Don't take the gold! Take the silver!

[Merrie]

I have a close friend, a very adventurous, minimalist guy.  Years ago he worked for the Indian Health Service on a reservation to pay back some med school loans.  After two years he decided he would rather pay the money.  There were several factors:  the isolation of the place, lack of adequate medical staff and resources, frustration with lack of prevention/treatment for the staggering rate of alcoholism, extremely long drive to buy good food, etc.  I do not know how the IHS assigns jobs, but my number one question would be do you get to choose your location? (My friend did not.) and will that be a good place for all of your family to live and make friends?

I am a pharmacist too and have entertained the exact dilemma in the original post. Pursue the isolated IHS job with this set of issues you describe here but that could also be really fulfilling, or stick with my current unfulfilling corporate job with underpaid techs, burnt-out coworkers, and a bunch of stupid political/corporate garbage. We are pretty established where we are with family and friends, and we like living in a city (much as my husband swears he's a small-town person, I really don't think he is).

OP, I don't think it's an issue of which job is more mustachian. You can make a good life for yourself either way, but which one do you want? Which life suits you?

[wordnerd]

As others have mentioned, with the SL pay-off, the compensation packages are comparable. IHS probably has more job security (though CVS isn't going anywhere anytime soon).

On the QOL question--my mom is a retail pharmacist working at Walgreen's (she's worked for other chains but has been there close to 20 years now). She's had to work holidays (including Thanksgiving and Christmas) and weekends her entire career, which was a definite bummer when we were kids. She still has to worry about her store hours getting cut and making sure she can keep her staff with enough hours. She's been robbed several times in her career and has had to report techs for stealing narcotics. There's just a lot of stress in retail, especially with a 24-hour store. I'm sure IHS has its own pressures, but with you having three small kids at home, I'd take the IHS job. The extra vacation time will be great, and the student loan repayment and pension make it financially very nice.