Author Topic: Dave Ramsey: If you have $1.7M and blew $100k one time, it wouldn't change life  (Read 5875 times)

FIREin2018

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I Fired in 2018.
7yrs later, i have more $ now thanks to the hot stock market.

If i blow the difference on hookers/Coke, it should make no difference in my life at all.
If i was ok to Fire with that amount of $ back then, then that same amount of $ should be fine now. Heck, more than fine because it's 7yrs later with the same $.

Spend some of the windfall without guilt.
Instead of baby steps, start big and rip off that band-aid with gusto instead slowly peeling it off?
12hr non-stop flight in coach next month = $750.
Business class = $9k
hm...
« Last Edit: January 17, 2025, 05:48:55 AM by FIREin2018 »

AuspiciousEight

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I feel like you're looking for some anonymous people on the internet to give you permission to spend money without guilt.

Let me be the first person to say: Permission Granted. :)

NotJen

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I'm not watching whatever's in that link.  But from your post title - I hope that if I spent $100k on something, it would change my life!  Otherwise, what's the point in spending that much????

You're on MMM.  Find what's important to you.  Spend money on that.  Minimize everything else.


If i was ok to Fire with that amount of $ back then, then that same amount of $ should be fine now. Heck, more than fine because it's 8yrs later with the same $.

You should probably consider inflation.

Retiring in 2017 with $1 Million in retirement assets supporting $40k annual expenses (4% rule) would be the equivalent of $1.27M supporting $50,800 annual expenses in 2024.  You're ahead if your investments grew more than inflation, or if your expenses grew less than inflation (or both).

Ron Scott

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If i added $5 to the value of what I learn from Dave Ramsey I’d have $5.

AuspiciousEight

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If i added $5 to the value of what I learn from Dave Ramsey I’d have $5.

The only value I have gotten from Dave Ramsey is - on occasion IRL - people have discovered my early retirement plans and/or frugal nature and criticized  it heavily.

Instead of trying to explain ERE or MMM or FIRE to them, which would take forever and has mixed results, I simply say " I follow Dave Ramsey for financial advice" and then they say "Ohhhhh - I know who Dave Ramey is - awesome! Good for you! How's that working out for you?"

and suddenly it's no longer criticism about my financial habits but it's about me having healthy financial habits. :)

flyingsnakes

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If i added $5 to the value of what I learn from Dave Ramsey I’d have $5.
Just because he hasn't taught you anything doesn't mean his message hasn't helped a lot of people get their life together and allow for a secure financial future for themselves. I listened to some of what he said a long time ago, but I quickly realized I wasn't his target audience, which likely no one here is.

fuzzy math

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If i added $5 to the value of what I learn from Dave Ramsey I’d have $5.
Just because he hasn't taught you anything doesn't mean his message hasn't helped a lot of people get their life together and allow for a secure financial future for themselves. I listened to some of what he said a long time ago, but I quickly realized I wasn't his target audience, which likely no one here is.

Some of us started out needing that "get out of debt" advice spoon fed to us. I wouldn't be here without it. Did I follow his steps beyond getting out of debt? NOOOOOOO

But to the OP thanks for posting this! Its nice to be reminded that in the long run those choices are inconsequential.

Dicey

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I Fired in 2017.
8yrs later, i have more $ now thanks to the hot stock market.

If i blow the difference on hookers/Coke, it should make no difference in my life at all.
If i was ok to Fire with that amount of $ back then, then that same amount of $ should be fine now. Heck, more than fine because it's 8yrs later with the same $.

Spend some of the windfall without guilt.
Instead of baby steps, start big and rip off that band-aid with gusto instead slowly peeling it off?
12hr non-stop flight in coach next month = $750.
Business class = $9k
hm...
Well, the mustachian thing to do is to hack the upgrade and not pay full price.

ditheca

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If you "blew" that $100k by handing it to your child early in their adulthood, you could dramatically change their life.

It took me 10 years to get out of debt and earn my first six figures. It only took 8 more years to go from six figures to seven. Wonder what I could have accomplished with an extra decade?

My in-laws were facing bankruptcy and eviction when they inherited $100k. It literally saved them from homelessness since they were able to buy a (very cheap) home.

It is true that the wealthy can afford to blow their fortune -- but they could also use it to lift others.

Retire-Canada

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Spending money for the sake of spending money is pointless. If you have something in mind that is meaningful to you and you want to spend money on it go for it. If you are just trying to burn through the "excess" give it to a good cause.

I can afford a $9K first class plane ticket any time I want one. But, I buy a low cost economy ticket because there is nothing about sitting in first class that appeals to me much.

OTOH I didn't take advantage of $10K+ brokerage transfer bonus recently because I didn't feel like dealing with the hassle of making the move happen.

I'm not suggesting either choice is the "right" one, but they are the ones that work for me.


Geppetto

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Spending money for the sake of spending money is pointless. If you have something in mind that is meaningful to you and you want to spend money on it go for it. If you are just trying to burn through the "excess" give it to a good cause.

I can afford a $9K first class plane ticket any time I want one. But, I buy a low cost economy ticket because there is nothing about sitting in first class that appeals to me much.

OTOH I didn't take advantage of $10K+ brokerage transfer bonus recently because I didn't feel like dealing with the hassle of making the move happen.

I'm not suggesting either choice is the "right" one, but they are the ones that work for me.

I always consider the existence of the $300 bottle of wine. Unless you're a professional sommelier with faculties not possessed by 99.99999% of humanity - which functionally means, if you are a human being who exists - then a $300 bottle of wine is going to taste the same as a typical $30 bottle or even most $15 bottles. There's no 10x-20x enjoyment multiplier available for purchase. So buying the $300 bottle is just spending money in order to get rid of it.

[One might object: Buying the $300 bottle could gain you notoriety and respect! But no ... it won't. I understand the concept. But it won't actually happen. No one cares about the bottle of wine that you bought.]

It might be - might be - that buying a business class ticket renders a flight 2x as pleasant as coach. Not more than that. And only on a flight that lasts more than six hours. You're still sitting in a tin can being told when you can unbuckle your seatbelt. You still can't light a cigar. You still can't actually have a good meal - it's all airplane food. You can't take a walk around the block and smell a spruce tree or check out a museum. You can't have conjugal relations with the flight attendant at the front of the plane, same as at the back. And right around when you start wishing you had a little more legroom, the plane lands. If the economy ticket is $900 and the business class ticket is $9,000, then it might as well be $9,000,000. It bears no resemblance to the value differential between the two. If you loathe your money enough to part with that much of it for nothing, then - as you said, Retire-Canada - find a better home for it. 

twinstudy

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Spending money for the sake of spending money is pointless. If you have something in mind that is meaningful to you and you want to spend money on it go for it. If you are just trying to burn through the "excess" give it to a good cause.

I can afford a $9K first class plane ticket any time I want one. But, I buy a low cost economy ticket because there is nothing about sitting in first class that appeals to me much.

OTOH I didn't take advantage of $10K+ brokerage transfer bonus recently because I didn't feel like dealing with the hassle of making the move happen.

I'm not suggesting either choice is the "right" one, but they are the ones that work for me.

I always consider the existence of the $300 bottle of wine. Unless you're a professional sommelier with faculties not possessed by 99.99999% of humanity - which functionally means, if you are a human being who exists - then a $300 bottle of wine is going to taste the same as a typical $30 bottle or even most $15 bottles. There's no 10x-20x enjoyment multiplier available for purchase. So buying the $300 bottle is just spending money in order to get rid of it.

[One might object: Buying the $300 bottle could gain you notoriety and respect! But no ... it won't. I understand the concept. But it won't actually happen. No one cares about the bottle of wine that you bought.]

It might be - might be - that buying a business class ticket renders a flight 2x as pleasant as coach. Not more than that. And only on a flight that lasts more than six hours. You're still sitting in a tin can being told when you can unbuckle your seatbelt. You still can't light a cigar. You still can't actually have a good meal - it's all airplane food. You can't take a walk around the block and smell a spruce tree or check out a museum. You can't have conjugal relations with the flight attendant at the front of the plane, same as at the back. And right around when you start wishing you had a little more legroom, the plane lands. If the economy ticket is $900 and the business class ticket is $9,000, then it might as well be $9,000,000. It bears no resemblance to the value differential between the two. If you loathe your money enough to part with that much of it for nothing, then - as you said, Retire-Canada - find a better home for it.

As someone who generally flies economy and therefore has no particular dog in the fight, I'd say a business class flight is at least 3-4x more pleasant than economy; it transforms a positively negative experience into a positive experience. Not just the flight, but the lounge prior.  Especially for someone with a crook back like me. Being able to recline and have all the leg room I want and all the food/drinks I want is a nice perk. And for some people a business class trip might only be a few hours' wages - it might be worth it to them - it's not for you to talk about what is and is not the value differential between the two.

People don't go around criticising others for spending inordinate amounts of time/money/energy on children, pets or other things - I wouldn't criticise someone for flying Business Class as long as (1) she genuinely liked it and (2) she earned enough to make it generally worthwhile on a cost/benefit basis.

FIREin2018

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Permission to splurge:
https://www.facebook.com/reel/904247011525222

I Fired in 2017.
8yrs later, i have more $ now thanks to the hot stock market.

If i blow the difference on hookers/Coke, it should make no difference in my life at all.
If i was ok to Fire with that amount of $ back then, then that same amount of $ should be fine now. Heck, more than fine because it's 8yrs later with the same $.

Spend some of the windfall without guilt.
Instead of baby steps, start big and rip off that band-aid with gusto instead slowly peeling it off?
12hr non-stop flight in coach next month = $750.
Business class = $9k
hm...
Well, the mustachian thing to do is to hack the upgrade and not pay full price.
I missed out in late Dec xmas special where Amex gave 30% bonus to xfer miles to JetBlue. And Jetblue directly to buy miles at 30% bonus.
So even with just cash, that $9k would be $6300. (Partner airline)

use2betrix

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I’ve flown from the US to Europe 3x in the last couple years and each time, my company pays for Business class (I prefer United). The tickets are around $8k-$11k. It’s pretty swanky travel. The United Lounge for business class is unreal. My only disappointment is that I’ve stopped drinking before I started traveling to Europe. All that free top shelf liquor would be pretty appealing otherwise.

Since I’m traveling for work, I’ve expected to get there and reasonably be able to perform. Well, I at least expect that of myself.

I can fly out of the Midwest at 5 p.m., sleep for 8 hrs, arrive around 7 a.m., and completely kill any chance of jet leg. In business, this is a breeze to get pretty dang good sleep.

That aside, if I was FIRED (or even not FIRED), I would not spend this money on my own (despite also having around $1.7M). If you’re FIRED, you probably can plan in plenty more time to recover from the travel.

$8k in flight differences adds a lot more time/convenience/‘luxury’ to a trip. I’d rather extend the trip another week or two, travel more in the countries, or stay in better accommodations.

If this sort of travel has always been a “bucket list” to fly business class, then by all means, experience it.. I’m just a bit more frugal in my personal travel.

Laura33

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Spending money for the sake of spending money is pointless. If you have something in mind that is meaningful to you and you want to spend money on it go for it. If you are just trying to burn through the "excess" give it to a good cause.

I can afford a $9K first class plane ticket any time I want one. But, I buy a low cost economy ticket because there is nothing about sitting in first class that appeals to me much.

OTOH I didn't take advantage of $10K+ brokerage transfer bonus recently because I didn't feel like dealing with the hassle of making the move happen.

I'm not suggesting either choice is the "right" one, but they are the ones that work for me.

I always consider the existence of the $300 bottle of wine. Unless you're a professional sommelier with faculties not possessed by 99.99999% of humanity - which functionally means, if you are a human being who exists - then a $300 bottle of wine is going to taste the same as a typical $30 bottle or even most $15 bottles. There's no 10x-20x enjoyment multiplier available for purchase. So buying the $300 bottle is just spending money in order to get rid of it.

[One might object: Buying the $300 bottle could gain you notoriety and respect! But no ... it won't. I understand the concept. But it won't actually happen. No one cares about the bottle of wine that you bought.]

It might be - might be - that buying a business class ticket renders a flight 2x as pleasant as coach. Not more than that. And only on a flight that lasts more than six hours. You're still sitting in a tin can being told when you can unbuckle your seatbelt. You still can't light a cigar. You still can't actually have a good meal - it's all airplane food. You can't take a walk around the block and smell a spruce tree or check out a museum. You can't have conjugal relations with the flight attendant at the front of the plane, same as at the back. And right around when you start wishing you had a little more legroom, the plane lands. If the economy ticket is $900 and the business class ticket is $9,000, then it might as well be $9,000,000. It bears no resemblance to the value differential between the two. If you loathe your money enough to part with that much of it for nothing, then - as you said, Retire-Canada - find a better home for it.

As someone who generally flies economy and therefore has no particular dog in the fight, I'd say a business class flight is at least 3-4x more pleasant than economy; it transforms a positively negative experience into a positive experience. Not just the flight, but the lounge prior.  Especially for someone with a crook back like me. Being able to recline and have all the leg room I want and all the food/drinks I want is a nice perk. And for some people a business class trip might only be a few hours' wages - it might be worth it to them - it's not for you to talk about what is and is not the value differential between the two.

People don't go around criticising others for spending inordinate amounts of time/money/energy on children, pets or other things - I wouldn't criticise someone for flying Business Class as long as (1) she genuinely liked it and (2) she earned enough to make it generally worthwhile on a cost/benefit basis.

This goes back to the "people are different" thing, right?  And here is where I embarrass myself in an effort to be helpful:

First:  honestly, I am a giant PITA.  Like, I am a supertaster, and I find most red wine undrinkable (most whites, too -- Chardonnay, blech).  Which is good, because that means I just don't drink a lot of wine.  But:  trip to Italy, discovered Barolo (in particular, a teensy-tiny sub-region within the already-tiny Barolo region), and also discovered how the right combination of wine and food makes everything better than just the one or other alone.  I am in no way whatsoever a sommelier -- more on the side of "wine cretin" -- but I have absolutely spent $300 on a particular Barolo, because I know I will enjoy the hell out of it, and unfortunately, it takes $300 to buy that particular brand/vintage.  Of course, I also enjoy a 6-euro bottle of Moscato d'Asti, too (but that's for dessert!).

Second:  I do not function without sleep -- never have, can't imagine it will get better as I age.  It's not just that I'm tired, it's that I get very very grumpy and easily-pissed-off, and my already-minimal filters go away, so a much higher percentage of snark and irritation comes out than when my inner grownup is fully functioning.  We took one trip to Italy, we had one week because of work/school/etc., I got literally zero sleep on the plane, and I basically lost the first three days of that trip because I was so tired and grumpy (and I'm sure I was a total pleasure to be with, too).  That's when I decided that as long as we're working,* we have more money than time, and if a business-class seat allows me to enjoy the whole trip instead of only half, it's worth it.  I'm hoping I won't need that when we retire completely, because we plan to take much longer trips where that first few days will be largely meaningless.

But here's the thing with all of that:  hedonic adaptation will occur, despite your best efforts.  Yeah, I won't need a business class seat when we travel for a month or two -- but boy, I sure as hell hope we can afford it anyway! Because, MY GOD, I feel SO much better when I can lie down and stretch out (somewhat) and get even 4-5 hrs. of sleep.  It makes airplane travel almost civilized.  Similarly, I was perfectly happy when I thought I didn't like any red wine.  You don't know what you don't know, right?  Now that I know there are some wines I like, I am more willing to try different wines, which increases the budget even if I don't end up liking the wine.  And of course now I have the expectation of a nice bottle of wine to go along with a nice dinner, whereas before it was maybe a single cocktail or something.

Honestly, I kind of hope you blow money on something and don't enjoy it as much as you hoped.  Like, buying things for status never ends up being actually satisfying, you know?  Because even if you do impress people, that impression goes away, and you have to buy something new to replace it, and the whole thing is kind of empty in the end anyway. 

Probably the worst thing that can happen is that you really really like the splurge.  Because, duh, if you enjoy the heck out of it, you're going to want to do it again.  So if you do want to splurge, think very carefully about how it will affect future spending.  My StupidCar was a much better deal than that very first business class ticket, even though it cost like 10x more, because I've already had it 8 years, and as far as I am concerned, I am keeping it forever.  So it amortizes much better than stupid plane tickets that have to be bought again.


*I do feel compelled to note that we were already FI when this happened and continuing to work because we wanted to. 

MoseyingAlong

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I had a trip booked to Germany last year. A couple weeks before my flights American emailed about upgrading. It gave the option of upgrading individual legs of the trip. I paid ~$1,600 to upgrade to business class for the leg from DFW to Frankfurt. Rest of trip and return were all economy.

For context, $1600 is about my average monthly spend. I already FIREd.

It was so worth it. I dozed during the overnight flight, didn't even get a good stretch of sleep, but when I picked up my rental car and drove 2+ hours to my destination, I was awake, not unsafe tired. And I adjusted to the time change right away. Coming back in sold-out economy was not as comfortable but I wanted to mostly stay awake anyway.

So, so worth it for those lie-flat seats. And I didn't even know about/consider lounge access.

I don't think I'd pay $10K for it but a few years ago I wouldn't have even considered it.

ixtap

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We are facing an unexpected $50k or more expense just a few months into retirement. It feels like it impacts life and it certainly feels like it could affect the long term plans. As such, even though we have more than 1.7M and blowing $100k feels like a game changer.

FIREin2018

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But here's the thing with all of that:  hedonic adaptation will occur, despite your best efforts. 
Yeah, I won't need a business class seat when we travel for a month or two -- but boy, I sure as hell hope we can afford it anyway! Because, MY GOD, I feel SO much better when I can lie down and stretch out (somewhat) and get even 4-5 hrs. of sleep.  It makes airplane travel almost civilized.  Similarly, I was perfectly happy when I thought I didn't like any red wine.  You don't know what you don't know, right?  Now that I know there are some wines I like, I am more willing to try different wines, which increases the budget even if I don't end up liking the wine.  And of course now I have the expectation of a nice bottle of wine to go along with a nice dinner, whereas before it was maybe a single cocktail or something.

Honestly, I kind of hope you blow money on something and don't enjoy it as much as you hoped.  Like, buying things for status never ends up being actually satisfying, you know?  Because even if you do impress people, that impression goes away, and you have to buy something new to replace it, and the whole thing is kind of empty in the end anyway. 

Probably the worst thing that can happen is that you really really like the splurge.  Because, duh, if you enjoy the heck out of it, you're going to want to do it again.  So if you do want to splurge, think very carefully about how it will affect future spending.  My StupidCar was a much better deal than that very first business class ticket, even though it cost like 10x more, because I've already had it 8 years, and as far as I am concerned, I am keeping it forever.  So it amortizes much better than stupid plane tickets that have to be bought again.


*I do feel compelled to note that we were already FI when this happened and continuing to work because we wanted to.
Yeah, hedonistic adaption is another worry.
I created a thread about that a while ago.

What if I now want lie flat whenever I fly?

Then again, I have the $.
As long as I have more $ now than when I FiRED, why not?
It's like a windfall that I will never need.

spartana

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I'm not watching whatever's in that link.  But from your post title - I hope that if I spent $100k on something, it would change my life!  Otherwise, what's the point in spending that much????

You're on MMM.  Find what's important to you.  Spend money on that.  Minimize everything else.



Or change the life of someone else! Lots of help can be had to those in need with the $9k you'd spend for a few hours of extra comfort on a flight. I mean WTF! The OP is early 50s and can tough it out a tiny bit and use that money he would have spent to help, and maybe change, someone else's life.  Sorry if that sounds harsh but that kind of spending just rubs me wrong.

I have a little list called "things I was going to buy but didn't because they were stupid and really weren't important". I write down the amount of each thing whether large like the OPs $9k "seat upgrade" or small like the fancy coffee I could care less about. At the end of the year I add it and donate it. I donate it rather than reinvest it because, in my mind, that money would already have been spent on "stupid stuff that wasn't important". Some years it a small amount and some years it's huge. But in either case I feel a bit more of the warm cozies and a bit more of a badass. It's a nice way to part with some extra money and also realize you are helping others and actually impr9ving your life too. 
« Last Edit: January 16, 2025, 09:12:35 PM by spartana »

EliteZags

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Ramsey just helps the poor stay less poor

if your net worth is above zero, Dave Ramsey has zero to offer you

Metalcat

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But here's the thing with all of that:  hedonic adaptation will occur, despite your best efforts. 
Yeah, I won't need a business class seat when we travel for a month or two -- but boy, I sure as hell hope we can afford it anyway! Because, MY GOD, I feel SO much better when I can lie down and stretch out (somewhat) and get even 4-5 hrs. of sleep.  It makes airplane travel almost civilized.  Similarly, I was perfectly happy when I thought I didn't like any red wine.  You don't know what you don't know, right?  Now that I know there are some wines I like, I am more willing to try different wines, which increases the budget even if I don't end up liking the wine.  And of course now I have the expectation of a nice bottle of wine to go along with a nice dinner, whereas before it was maybe a single cocktail or something.

Honestly, I kind of hope you blow money on something and don't enjoy it as much as you hoped.  Like, buying things for status never ends up being actually satisfying, you know?  Because even if you do impress people, that impression goes away, and you have to buy something new to replace it, and the whole thing is kind of empty in the end anyway. 

Probably the worst thing that can happen is that you really really like the splurge.  Because, duh, if you enjoy the heck out of it, you're going to want to do it again.  So if you do want to splurge, think very carefully about how it will affect future spending.  My StupidCar was a much better deal than that very first business class ticket, even though it cost like 10x more, because I've already had it 8 years, and as far as I am concerned, I am keeping it forever.  So it amortizes much better than stupid plane tickets that have to be bought again.


*I do feel compelled to note that we were already FI when this happened and continuing to work because we wanted to.
Yeah, hedonistic adaption is another worry.
I created a thread about that a while ago.

What if I now want lie flat whenever I fly?

Then again, I have the $.
As long as I have more $ now than when I FiRED, why not?
It's like a windfall that I will never need.

Not exactly.

Market returns aren't predictable, if you have particularly good returns for a stretch, you don't just reset your 4% number based on your new balance, not unless you're going to also reduce your withdrawal rate if/when the numbers fall during very poor performance years.

The whole point is that you're projecting that the returns average out over time to produce a "safe" withdrawal rate. If you want to switch to a variable withdrawal rate that's responsive to market performance, that's cool, go run some simulations and see what projections you find from a variable withdrawal model vs a steady 4%(+estimated inflation).

But what you don't want to do is treat the returns from a good market return stretch like "extra money," spend down your capital like it's a windfall, and then stick to the same 4%(+estimated inflation) spend from that point forth, based on the assumption that you can just "reset" your FIRE number each time and have the same outcome.

Each time you do that, you also reset your sequence of returns risk.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2025, 01:54:25 AM by Metalcat »

FIREin2018

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Not exactly.

Market returns aren't predictable, if you have particularly good returns for a stretch, you don't just reset your 4% number based on your new balance, not unless you're going to also reduce your withdrawal rate if/when the numbers fall during very poor performance years.

The whole point is that you're projecting that the returns average out over time to produce a "safe" withdrawal rate. If you want to switch to a variable withdrawal rate that's responsive to market performance, that's cool, go run some simulations and see what projections you find from a variable withdrawal model vs a steady 4%(+estimated inflation).

But what you don't want to do is treat the returns from a good market return stretch like "extra money," spend down your capital like it's a windfall, and then stick to the same 4%(+estimated inflation) spend from that point forth, based on the assumption that you can just "reset" your FIRE number each time and have the same outcome.

Each time you do that, you also reset your sequence of returns risk.
ahh.. the dreaded SORR.
glad i never heard of it and had no clue when i Fired in 2018.
Just had my steel belief in 4%, which was great during covid. Market dropped by 1/3, No problem, no sleepless nights.
 Ignorance was bliss.

Based on what you wrote, if i have to contend with SORR again, i will worry now.
It's like that Bugs bunny cartoon where he reads a book on gravity.

but Cash counters SORR.
One thing i found out with treasury bill ladders (~5%) was that the interest doesn't get re-invested.
So i have a few thousand in cash now.

Unfortunately, a few thousand isn't going to cover expenses. I will have to sell stocks at a loss if a bear market emerges if i'm down to 2018 money levels because i spent the excess.

Wait... i have Treasuries!
 duh.. i could stop the ladder, use the cash and not sell stocks at a loss to cover.

SORR  solved?
$9k business class flight, here i come?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2025, 05:45:54 AM by FIREin2018 »

AuspiciousEight

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Not exactly.

Market returns aren't predictable, if you have particularly good returns for a stretch, you don't just reset your 4% number based on your new balance, not unless you're going to also reduce your withdrawal rate if/when the numbers fall during very poor performance years.

The whole point is that you're projecting that the returns average out over time to produce a "safe" withdrawal rate. If you want to switch to a variable withdrawal rate that's responsive to market performance, that's cool, go run some simulations and see what projections you find from a variable withdrawal model vs a steady 4%(+estimated inflation).

But what you don't want to do is treat the returns from a good market return stretch like "extra money," spend down your capital like it's a windfall, and then stick to the same 4%(+estimated inflation) spend from that point forth, based on the assumption that you can just "reset" your FIRE number each time and have the same outcome.

Each time you do that, you also reset your sequence of returns risk.
ahh.. the dreaded SORR.
glad i never heard of it and had no clue when i Fired in 2017.
Just had my steel belief in 4%, which was great during covid. Market dropped by 1/3, No problem, no sleepless nights.
 Ignorance was bliss.

Based on what you wrote, if i have to contend with SORR again, i will worry now.
It's like that Bugs bunny cartoon where he reads a book on gravity.

but Cash counters SORR.
One thing i found out with treasury bill ladders (~5%) was that the interest doesn't get re-invested.
So i have a few thousand in cash now.

Unfortunately, a few thousand isn't going to cover expenses. I will have to sell stocks at a loss if a bear market emerges.

Wait... i have Treasuries!
 duh.. i could stop the ladder, use the cash and not sell stocks at a loss to cover.

SORR  solved?
$9k business class flight, here i come?

I mean - you could also always simply do what the people who spend their days criticizing FIRE do and get a job if you run out of money.

Our worst case scenario is the daily lived reality of billions of people across the globe.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2025, 05:46:55 AM by AuspiciousEight »

Metalcat

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Not exactly.

Market returns aren't predictable, if you have particularly good returns for a stretch, you don't just reset your 4% number based on your new balance, not unless you're going to also reduce your withdrawal rate if/when the numbers fall during very poor performance years.

The whole point is that you're projecting that the returns average out over time to produce a "safe" withdrawal rate. If you want to switch to a variable withdrawal rate that's responsive to market performance, that's cool, go run some simulations and see what projections you find from a variable withdrawal model vs a steady 4%(+estimated inflation).

But what you don't want to do is treat the returns from a good market return stretch like "extra money," spend down your capital like it's a windfall, and then stick to the same 4%(+estimated inflation) spend from that point forth, based on the assumption that you can just "reset" your FIRE number each time and have the same outcome.

Each time you do that, you also reset your sequence of returns risk.
ahh.. the dreaded SORR.
glad i never heard of it and had no clue when i Fired in 2018.
Just had my steel belief in 4%, which was great during covid. Market dropped by 1/3, No problem, no sleepless nights.
 Ignorance was bliss.

Based on what you wrote, if i have to contend with SORR again, i will worry now.
It's like that Bugs bunny cartoon where he reads a book on gravity.

but Cash counters SORR.
One thing i found out with treasury bill ladders (~5%) was that the interest doesn't get re-invested.
So i have a few thousand in cash now.

Unfortunately, a few thousand isn't going to cover expenses. I will have to sell stocks at a loss if a bear market emerges if i'm down to 2018 money levels because i spent the excess.

Wait... i have Treasuries!
 duh.. i could stop the ladder, use the cash and not sell stocks at a loss to cover.

SORR  solved?
$9k business class flight, here i come?

I literally don't understand your point.

If you want to spend your money, go ahead and do so.

2sk22

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Having been on this forum and on Bogleheads for quite a while, I notice a big difference in the reaction of people to a request to splurge for a physical good like a car or an experience like a business class ticket on a flight. In general, I find that there is more support for splurging on physical goods.

However, for me personally, when it comes to luxury spending, I prefer experiences over physical goods. I am perfectly happy driving around in my old Honda but I really enjoy flying business class and staying in nice hotels :-)

FIREin2018

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but Cash counters SORR.
One thing i found out with treasury bill ladders (~5%) was that the interest doesn't get re-invested.
So i have a few thousand in cash now.

Unfortunately, a few thousand isn't going to cover expenses. I will have to sell stocks at a loss if a bear market emerges.

Wait... i have Treasuries!
 duh.. i could stop the ladder, use the cash and not sell stocks at a loss to cover.

SORR  solved?
$9k business class flight, here i come?

I mean - you could also always simply do what the people who spend their days criticizing FIRE do and get a job if you run out of money.

Our worst case scenario is the daily lived reality of billions of people across the globe.
i guess i can be a Walmart greeter like the old people who's been out of the job market for so long that their skills have deteriorated/no longer relevant.
Not!

My Fire calcs did not include social security.
I know i have the $ to last till i collect because if i don't then something really bad has happened in the world that hasn't before like a nuclear war. (With backtesting, the 4% rule has survived the Great Depression and WW1+2)
hmm.. Another thing that hasnt happened before is SS run out of $.

When i start to collect depends on my health at age 62.
Do i  think i'll outlive the breakeven point of age 79?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2025, 06:18:22 AM by FIREin2018 »

AuspiciousEight

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Not exactly.

Market returns aren't predictable, if you have particularly good returns for a stretch, you don't just reset your 4% number based on your new balance, not unless you're going to also reduce your withdrawal rate if/when the numbers fall during very poor performance years.

The whole point is that you're projecting that the returns average out over time to produce a "safe" withdrawal rate. If you want to switch to a variable withdrawal rate that's responsive to market performance, that's cool, go run some simulations and see what projections you find from a variable withdrawal model vs a steady 4%(+estimated inflation).

But what you don't want to do is treat the returns from a good market return stretch like "extra money," spend down your capital like it's a windfall, and then stick to the same 4%(+estimated inflation) spend from that point forth, based on the assumption that you can just "reset" your FIRE number each time and have the same outcome.

Each time you do that, you also reset your sequence of returns risk.
ahh.. the dreaded SORR.
glad i never heard of it and had no clue when i Fired in 2018.
Just had my steel belief in 4%, which was great during covid. Market dropped by 1/3, No problem, no sleepless nights.
 Ignorance was bliss.

Based on what you wrote, if i have to contend with SORR again, i will worry now.
It's like that Bugs bunny cartoon where he reads a book on gravity.

but Cash counters SORR.
One thing i found out with treasury bill ladders (~5%) was that the interest doesn't get re-invested.
So i have a few thousand in cash now.

Unfortunately, a few thousand isn't going to cover expenses. I will have to sell stocks at a loss if a bear market emerges if i'm down to 2018 money levels because i spent the excess.

Wait... i have Treasuries!
 duh.. i could stop the ladder, use the cash and not sell stocks at a loss to cover.

SORR  solved?
$9k business class flight, here i come?

I literally don't understand your point.

If you want to spend your money, go ahead and do so.

My assessment is they FIRED, want to spend more money on some things in their life, but still have some anxiety about doing so because they don't want to run out of money and have to go back to work.

They're looking for other people's random validation on the internet to give them permission to spend the money on things that they want but don't need, with the idea that splurging a huge amount of money on something might make them permanently happier, even if it won't.

So they're stuck between this desire to spend money on extreme luxuries and the fear of running out of money, all while having a false idea that extreme luxury will give them some sort of long lasting happiness.

Just my .02 cents.

twinstudy

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I wouldn't call business class flights an extreme luxury (not sure if that is what you were referring to).

If you are worried about SORR you can mitigate that largely by having 4% be rental returns or some other form of less volatile return. I know rent is not guaranteed but the reality is that if you are renting out family homes or units in good school zones you will always have tenants. And if something goes really wrong you can sell the underlying asset. Only issue with this approach is that you are being more conservative than is necessary.

AuspiciousEight

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Yeah I might be being a little overly dramatic here.

My point is just that maybe OP can instead of thinking so much about if they can afford x thing and investment returns, to instead think more about if x thing gives them the best bang for their happiness bucks or not.

With the price of one business class flight they can buy a lot of amusement park tickets, video games, hiking shoes, time out playing cards with friends, etc. There are a lot of things that may be much cheaper that may make them happier in the long run.

I would spend some time thinking about why they want the business class flights, the new car, and so on, and if there are other things that they might enjoy more that may also cost less so they don't have to worry about the money either.

I can find a lot of things to spend 9k on that would make me way happier than one flight, but maybe that's just me, idk.

Honestly 9k can buy me a lifetime supply of hiking shoes, and spending a lifetime hiking in nature makes me way happier than one flight.

Just Joe

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Having been on this forum and on Bogleheads for quite a while, I notice a big difference in the reaction of people to a request to splurge for a physical good like a car or an experience like a business class ticket on a flight. In general, I find that there is more support for splurging on physical goods.

However, for me personally, when it comes to luxury spending, I prefer experiences over physical goods. I am perfectly happy driving around in my old Honda but I really enjoy flying business class and staying in nice hotels :-)

I'm exactly the opposite. I can sleep in that corner sitting on the floor (throw me that cushion, please?) but I really want to have a nice (used, quality) car to drive around for the next 15-20 years. I also don't want to change cars very often. Take care of the one I have and wear it out gently. It's a tool that makes the ride to grandma's house nicer for the next 15-20 years rather than a few momentary "luxury" experiences during a vacation. A slow burn approach.

It might be the difference of incomes. DW and I have always had good incomes but never big incomes. Slow and steady. We pick up a few nice things along the way and try to make them last as long as possible or improve them (our house). I guess if we had higher incomes maybe we'd spend a little faster and easier.

When we finally do our Scotland and Italy trip - it might be on the cheap so we can afford to bring our grown kids with us. We really want them to see Europe too and they won't be able to afford to do that for a long time presumably.

Not digging on anyone's different choices. Just sharing a counterpoint. Carry on. ;)

iris lily

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If i added $5 to the value of what I learn from Dave Ramsey I’d have $5.
Just because he hasn't taught you anything doesn't mean his message hasn't helped a lot of people get their life together and allow for a secure financial future for themselves. I listened to some of what he said a long time ago, but I quickly realized I wasn't his target audience, which likely no one here is.

I listen to Dave Ramsey and am a multimillionaire.(old and retired.)

But hey, Dave had nothing to do with it because I didn’t start tuning into his program, even though I knew who he was, until a couple of years ago. I like Dave. He has a formula for people who truly cannot envision how to manage money in their life.

He also is pretty good about recognizing when money problems are not really money problems, but are  marriage problems or family problems or mental health problems and he says so.


flyingsnakes

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He also is pretty good about recognizing when money problems are not really money problems, but are  marriage problems or family problems or mental health problems and he says so.
That's a really good point!

Laura33

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Having been on this forum and on Bogleheads for quite a while, I notice a big difference in the reaction of people to a request to splurge for a physical good like a car or an experience like a business class ticket on a flight. In general, I find that there is more support for splurging on physical goods.

However, for me personally, when it comes to luxury spending, I prefer experiences over physical goods. I am perfectly happy driving around in my old Honda but I really enjoy flying business class and staying in nice hotels :-)

The problem is that this is a false dichotomy.  In both cases, the point is how something makes us feel -- happiness, relief of discomfort, serenity, etc.  If you're buying a Thing to prove to everyone that you are so rich you can afford a Thing, it's never worth it, because that kind of showing-off brings only a temporary happiness, followed by future purchases to keep re-creating that feeling.  But if you buy a Thing because it enables you to do something that does make you happy, then you are actually buying the "experience," because you need the Thing to get the experience.  Like, I get a visceral happy reaction from downshifting into a turn and accelerating out of it.  My StupidCar literally makes me smile involuntarily every time I drive it (well, except in the snow, when it royally sucks).  So buy buying that Thing, what I was really buying was many future smiles.  For someone who doesn't have the same visceral response I do, a StupidCar would be an absolutely terrible waste of money.

What really matters is maximizing happiness per dollar spent.  StupidCar has a much higher ratio than business-class plane tickets, because I only had to buy it once.  If you love hiking, hiking boots have a much, much higher ratio than either.  The whole reason we're on the MMM boards is to try to maximize that ratio by focusing on getting 90% of the happiness at 1% of the price (or, you know, free). 

wageslave23

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Honestly if I was even considering spending $9k on a flight because it might be worth the comfort/convenience (and it might be, but I seriously doubt it), then I would just stop the trip all together and avoid the flight that's so uncomfortable that it makes me consider spending $9k to make it more tolerable, and just relax on my own bed, couch, friend's chair etc.  I get it, traveling sucks. So make sure you are considering all the costs when deciding to go on an optional trip, not just the monetary ones.

2sk22

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Having been on this forum and on Bogleheads for quite a while, I notice a big difference in the reaction of people to a request to splurge for a physical good like a car or an experience like a business class ticket on a flight. In general, I find that there is more support for splurging on physical goods.

However, for me personally, when it comes to luxury spending, I prefer experiences over physical goods. I am perfectly happy driving around in my old Honda but I really enjoy flying business class and staying in nice hotels :-)

The problem is that this is a false dichotomy.  In both cases, the point is how something makes us feel -- happiness, relief of discomfort, serenity, etc.  If you're buying a Thing to prove to everyone that you are so rich you can afford a Thing, it's never worth it, because that kind of showing-off brings only a temporary happiness, followed by future purchases to keep re-creating that feeling.  But if you buy a Thing because it enables you to do something that does make you happy, then you are actually buying the "experience," because you need the Thing to get the experience.  Like, I get a visceral happy reaction from downshifting into a turn and accelerating out of it.  My StupidCar literally makes me smile involuntarily every time I drive it (well, except in the snow, when it royally sucks).  So buy buying that Thing, what I was really buying was many future smiles.  For someone who doesn't have the same visceral response I do, a StupidCar would be an absolutely terrible waste of money.

What really matters is maximizing happiness per dollar spent.  StupidCar has a much higher ratio than business-class plane tickets, because I only had to buy it once.  If you love hiking, hiking boots have a much, much higher ratio than either.  The whole reason we're on the MMM boards is to try to maximize that ratio by focusing on getting 90% of the happiness at 1% of the price (or, you know, free).

I think the question you are addressing is: how long does the pleasure last after spending the money? The point I was trying to make was that most people agree with you that a physical good like your "stupid car" (love the name) will sustain happiness for a longer period of time than spending on experiences.

Talking about big ticket items like house and car: our house is fully renovated and "sparks joy" on a daily basis - we don't need anything more. I get no pleasure from driving around the congested roads in our area. Also, I am retired and don't have to drive to work. A fancier car like a Mercedes S class would not make me happier. We don't spend much on clothes and hardly ever eat out when we are not traveling. My hobbies are relatively inexpensive.

But I would like to make the case that travel also offers sustained pleasure. My wife and I go on relatively short (ten day) trips two or three times a year.  I really enjoy the process of planning our trips, reading about the history and culture of our detination and anticipating luxury service and accommodations. This alone can easily keep me going for months :-)  And of course, after we get back, I enjoy the memories for a long time. We travel strictly for our pleasure - not a soul knows that we go on these trips except immediate family - we don't post pics on social media.

iris lily

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We are facing an unexpected $50k or more expense just a few months into retirement. It feels like it impacts life and it certainly feels like it could affect the long term plans. As such, even though we have more than 1.7M and blowing $100k feels like a game changer.

The “feeling poor” problem is real.

Just two years ago I wrote a check to our dog rescue group, even tho the head said “oh no! We don’t need that now, you’ve done so much!” But I told her “lady, take the money because
next year we are doing a major renovation down-to-the-studs of our house and I will feel too poor to donate even tho I will not be too poor.”

And sure enough, during that rocky one year where we had no cost estimates for our renovation(yeah, we were crazy old people!) and money was flowing out freely I FELT a little scared. But we plunged through it even when COVID lumber prices were horrifying, and came out on the other side just fine.

Since then I have sent a check to our dog rescue group for $10,000 each of the past two years and will continue this year.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2025, 09:28:44 AM by iris lily »

spartana

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We are facing an unexpected $50k or more expense just a few months into retirement. It feels like it impacts life and it certainly feels like it could affect the long term plans. As such, even though we have more than 1.7M and blowing $100k feels like a game changer.

The “feeling poor” problem is real.

Just two years ago I wrote a check to our dog rescue group, even tho the head said “oh no! We don’t need that now, you’ve done so much!” But I told her “lady, take the money because
next year we are doing a major renovation down-to-the-studs of our house and I will feel too poor to donate even tho I will not be too poor.”

And sure enough, during that rocky one year where we had no cost estimates for our renovation(yeah, we were crazy old people!) and money was flowing out freely I FELT a little scared. But we plunged through it even when COVID lumber prices were horrifying, and came out on the other side just fine.

Since then I have sent a check to our dog rescue group for $10,000 each of the past two years and will continue this year.
I love you @iris lily!

nessness

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It costs about $5k to save the life of a child, if donated to the most effective charities.

https://www.givewell.org/charities/top-charities

If you're at the point of considering blowing your money on useless junk, why not look into doing some good instead?

twinstudy

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It costs about $5k to save the life of a child, if donated to the most effective charities.

https://www.givewell.org/charities/top-charities

If you're at the point of considering blowing your money on useless junk, why not look into doing some good instead?

You could do both potentially.

Or you might consider that you pay enough tax (which goes to redistributive ends) that you've already done your fair share of lifting. Particularly if you live in a high personal income tax jurisdiction where most of your income is taxed at 47% for example.

iris lily

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It costs about $5k to save the life of a child, if donated to the most effective charities.

https://www.givewell.org/charities/top-charities

If you're at the point of considering blowing your money on useless junk, why not look into doing some good instead?

Congratulations, this advice has the duo effect of being both overly simplistic and patronizing. Two for one.

Must_ache

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I Fired in 2018.
7yrs later, i have more $ now thanks to the hot stock market.


You need to have 25% more just to have the same purchasing power as back then.

FIREin2018

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Yeah I might be being a little overly dramatic here.

My point is just that maybe OP can instead of thinking so much about if they can afford x thing and investment returns, to instead think more about if x thing gives them the best bang for their happiness bucks or not.

With the price of one business class flight they can buy a lot of amusement park tickets, video games, hiking shoes, time out playing cards with friends, etc. There are a lot of things that may be much cheaper that may make them happier in the long run.

I would spend some time thinking about why they want the business class flights, the new car, and so on, and if there are other things that they might enjoy more that may also cost less so they don't have to worry about the money either.

I can find a lot of things to spend 9k on that would make me way happier than one flight, but maybe that's just me, idk.

Honestly 9k can buy me a lifetime supply of hiking shoes, and spending a lifetime hiking in nature makes me way happier than one flight.
Blow $9k on something that brings more happiness than 1 business class flight.
Never thought of it that way.

Yeah, i guess Xbox + games comes to mind and would cost waaaay less than $9k.

Edit:
Bought the $700 airfare.
Will choose something else to blow the $9k on.
Thx
« Last Edit: January 24, 2025, 02:52:17 PM by FIREin2018 »

Laura33

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But I would like to make the case that travel also offers sustained pleasure. My wife and I go on relatively short (ten day) trips two or three times a year.  I really enjoy the process of planning our trips, reading about the history and culture of our detination and anticipating luxury service and accommodations. This alone can easily keep me going for months :-)  And of course, after we get back, I enjoy the memories for a long time.

Oh, I completely agree with you; in fact, "more travel" is tops of our list now that the kids are out of the house.  My point was just that if you are doing things right, then whatever you spend money on, you are doing it for the "experience."  Some of those are one-time events that, if you're lucky, will stay with you forever (I have two specific past vacations in mind).  Others can be smaller-but-more-frequent, like the experience of driving my StupidCar. 

Conversely, if you're spending money for the wrong reason, it will never actually make you happy -- whether it is buying a fancy car to show off to the world and puff up your own ego, or going on fancy vacations so you can constantly post for the entire world to see how special you are.* 

It doesn't matter whether you are directly buying an experience, or are buying a "thing" that then provides that experience; what matters is why you spend the money, not what you spend it on.

*As if the world actually cared, LOL. 

FIREin2018

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It doesn't matter whether you are directly buying an experience, or are buying a "thing" that then provides that experience; what matters is why you spend the money, not what you spend it on.
The why in this case is to get over the fear/phycological block of spending $ on something I would like but it's not a value purchase.

I guess I should browse the 'Things you're lusting after' thread

2sk22

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It doesn't matter whether you are directly buying an experience, or are buying a "thing" that then provides that experience; what matters is why you spend the money, not what you spend it on.
The why in this case is to get over the fear/phycological block of spending $ on something I would like but it's not a value purchase.

I guess I should browse the 'Things you're lusting after' thread

My definition of a "value" purchase is one that gives you sustained internal happiness.

So why did I use the word "internal"? It's happiness that does not depend on other people knowing that you bought the good or service.

iris lily

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It doesn't matter whether you are directly buying an experience, or are buying a "thing" that then provides that experience; what matters is why you spend the money, not what you spend it on.
The why in this case is to get over the fear/phycological block of spending $ on something I would like but it's not a value purchase.

I guess I should browse the 'Things you're lusting after' thread

My definition of a "value" purchase is one that gives you sustained internal happiness.

So why did I use the word "internal"? It's happiness that does not depend on other people knowing that you bought the good or service.

That’s a good definition

AuspiciousEight

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Yeah I might be being a little overly dramatic here.

My point is just that maybe OP can instead of thinking so much about if they can afford x thing and investment returns, to instead think more about if x thing gives them the best bang for their happiness bucks or not.

With the price of one business class flight they can buy a lot of amusement park tickets, video games, hiking shoes, time out playing cards with friends, etc. There are a lot of things that may be much cheaper that may make them happier in the long run.

I would spend some time thinking about why they want the business class flights, the new car, and so on, and if there are other things that they might enjoy more that may also cost less so they don't have to worry about the money either.

I can find a lot of things to spend 9k on that would make me way happier than one flight, but maybe that's just me, idk.

Honestly 9k can buy me a lifetime supply of hiking shoes, and spending a lifetime hiking in nature makes me way happier than one flight.
Blow $9k on something that brings more happiness than 1 business class flight.
Never thought of it that way.

Yeah, i guess Xbox + games comes to mind and would cost waaaay less than $9k.

Edit:
Bought the $700 airfare.
Will choose something else to blow the $9k on.
Thx

Awesome!

LiveLean

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I've always found Dave Ramsey and his crew entertaining and every so often pick up a useful nugget of information.

It seems much of the Dave backlash here and elsewhere is that he's evangelical. We live in an increasingly secular world where nobody wants to hear anyone wear their religion on their sleeve. Yet nobody complains when (insert athlete) responds to every first question after a big win with "all glory and praise to God" but when Dave occasionally drops a Jesus reference - which he does far less than he once did -- people lose their minds.

Retire-Canada

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It seems much of the Dave backlash here and elsewhere is that he's evangelical.

Every single criticism I've read of DR on this forum has to do with the terrible quality of his investing advice. I have never heard one person get upset at him due to his religious views.



JupiterGreen

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I've always found Dave Ramsey and his crew entertaining and every so often pick up a useful nugget of information.

It seems much of the Dave backlash here and elsewhere is that he's evangelical. We live in an increasingly secular world where nobody wants to hear anyone wear their religion on their sleeve. Yet nobody complains when (insert athlete) responds to every first question after a big win with "all glory and praise to God" but when Dave occasionally drops a Jesus reference - which he does far less than he once did -- people lose their minds.

I've heard the same sort of criticism about athletes etc. but the comparison is flawed. Athletes are not making money off of being religious. Nobody knows if Dave is actually religious but he gives them lip service and by doing so directly profits off of evangelicals since they keep his "engine running". Messy, messy but whatever, that's his business. Religion aside Dave just gives bad advice.