Cruising (sailing): Ever consider it?

[PantsOnFire]

I had a friend of a friend who lived on a sailboat while attending law school in DC.  He sailed a lot growing up, and decided to live in the marina for a while until he found someplace suitable to live in the city.  Turns out it was in a pretty good location, and the slip fees (or whatever they are called--I'm no sailor!) were so insanely cheap he ended up staying there for years.  He loved it! 

Regarding commercial cruise ships, we did a Norwegian cruise one time as a last minute getaway.  Good bang for the buck.  It had it's ups and downs... I'll never do it again. 

The good: We went right from our home town (Philly) to Bermuda and it was a pretty cheap way to do it when you compared it to airfare, hotel/apartment rental, food, booze, etc.  Plus 20 minutes after we left our house, we were parked at the seaport, and 40 minutes later we were on the ship drinking free booze, so you could say we were already on vacation an hour after leaving home. It maximized the use of our time off work.  I loved the time on the island, and sleeping on the ship while in port was pretty cool.  They offered a whiskey tasting where we met some really good people and we got something like 10 shots of high end booze and a pretty good education on them for like $15.  I think the bartender normally doesn't do that many rounds but we had a real fun group so he kept it going. 

Not so good: We're not snobbish but not really into typical junk food, so the "24/7" cruise ship food was just "meh" for the most part.  It was great to get an ice cream cone or cheeseburger at 3 in the morning but that gets old after the second day.  The sit down restaurants were average.  The "pay extra" restaurants were good, but not as good as the high-end offerings in a big city, so not really worth the money considering you're also skipping one of your paid meals to go there.  The pool and jacuzzi were virtually inaccessable the whole time due to two or three families of about 10 kids each getting there first thing in the morning and staying ALL day.  We deliberately went after the school season started hoping to avoid this, but c'est la vie. 

The worst part was the weather.  We left the day after a tropical storm blew through and the seas were ROUGH.  Even the crew was green around the gills for the whole trip out.  Sleeping was difficult, and almost no one on the ship made it to breakfast the first two days.  I know normally you'd have better luck but it ruined a chunk of our vacation.  Plus, I don't like being confined in one place for that long anyway, even under ideal conditions, so it was miserable. 

[AlmostIndependent]

I would love to sail the world in retirement. You'll get to some places that not many people have ever seen. I think it would be one of the best ways to spend your time. Boat people are a pretty welcoming community too.

[horsepoor]

I guess this is a good place for me to make my first post, as I was a "live aboard brat" for the first 10 years or so of my life.

My parents spent most of my brother and my formative years living on home-built multihull sailboats, in a VERY mustachian lifestyle.  First was a small trimaran before my older brother was born, then a larger boat that they sailed to Hawaii, where I was born.  They then moved to a cabin in Washington State and built Puff, the catamaran that I remember most from my childhood.  We lived on it from the time I was about 2 (1980-ish) until I was 8 or so, and in that time sailed to Alaska, then to Mexico, and spent time in the San Juan Islands and more time in Sausalito, CA.

We did not have plumbing or electricity, and it was a dangerous upbringing, but I lived through it and I'm sure learned lots from it.  I don't know how current regulations would apply, but it was certainly a cheap way to live at the time, since we anchored out in the bay, never paid slip fees, and obviously there were not utilities, vehicle costs and so on.  We ate lots of spaghetti, beans and PB&J.  I wouldn't do it again, but YMMV.

[fodder69]

^^^^ This!

It's basically camping on the water. Now you can make it pretty luxurious, there are some really nice boats out there with all the creature comforts and associated expenses.

You can still legally anchor most places for free. Busy places are getting more regulated, especially for live aboards, but still quite possible to do it for cheap.

I'd do it if I was going to live in an expense area, and you can do it for cheap if you now how but it's definitely not for everyone.

[AlmostIndependent]

This thread is getting me excited for living on a boat. I hadn't seriously considered it in a while.

[YK-Phil]

If you live in Vancouver, there is a huge Samson 54 ferro-cement ketch for sale for $17K. It floats well and is liveable as is but it would take at least $100K and a lot of elbow grease to get it back to its former sailing glory. It is anchored downtown, and is more spacious than most $2M condos in downtown Vancouver. As a live-aboard, you could get away completely with mooring fees if you simply drop a mooring block nearby like many live-aboard folks do.

http://www.popyachts.com/Page/Site-Listing/9760/Ketch/British-Columbia/Used/1976-Samson-54-Sailing-Ketch/Page.html

[horsepoor]

I just found this article my dad wrote with some pretty good photos of Puff.  I think that's me on deck in the middle below the sail if you squint real hard.  That top photo is circa 1982??
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/vintage/multihulls/index.cfm

[AlmostIndependent]

I just found this article my dad wrote with some pretty good photos of Puff.  I think that's me on deck in the middle below the sail if you squint real hard.  That top photo is circa 1982??
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/vintage/multihulls/index.cfm

By chance do they still have the boat? There is a boat that looks an awful lot like Puff moored near the Ferry Dock in Bellingham, WA

[horsepoor]

That could very well be her.  It looks like the guy who bought her from my dad sold her again, and I think I remember my dad saying something recently about talking with the current owner around the Seattle area.

http://tenchiki.net/reality/fun/dragon_wings.html

[AlmostIndependent]

That could very well be her.  It looks like the guy who bought her from my dad sold her again, and I think I remember my dad saying something recently about talking with the current owner around the Seattle area.

http://tenchiki.net/reality/fun/dragon_wings.html

Interesting. Ill have to take a closer look next time I'm down there.

[Roland of Gilead]

Reviving this thread instead of starting a new one as we are planning to live a mustachian lifestyle on a sailboat after we finish touring the USA with our little 17 foot Montgomery sailboat (plan to sail in some body of water in 49 states....a Monty has been sailed to Hawaii but the guy was single and probably smelled a bit after the ~35 day trip).

We are going to go in stages.  Stage 1 we are starting in 2015, selling our house and most possessions and traveling the country in our homebuilt flatbed truck/camper which will carry our dual sport motorcycles and pull our sailboat.  We built our own because we couldn't find anything to buy that wasn't crap.

Stage 2 will be selling the truck, camper, maybe the motorcycles, and sadly the sailboat.  A 17 foot sailboat with a 600 pound lead keel is a bit much to use as a dinghy on a larger boat.  :-)

I want to look for a used 32 to 42 foot boat.  I am seriously considering removing the diesel engine if it has one and installing a Torqueedo electric motor drive and a decent chunk of solar.  I would have a good sized battery bank but mostly use the electric motor during docking or maneuvering around coral (no experience with that yet).  We use a small Torqueedo on our 17 footer and it does the job quite nicely, pushing us at 4.5 knots at full thrust (hull speed is limited anyway on a small boat).

Anyone currently living on a sailboat I would love to hear your experiences.

[brewer12345]

Ah, bumfuzzle.  A way I kept myself sane during some of the bad days in the cube.  I also love these guys' blog: http://tendervittles.net/Default/

Unfortunately, I basically get seasick on wet pavement despite spending about every weekend on a small boat on Barnegat Bay growing up.  Happily RVing scratches many of the same happy places sans the nausea.  DW would never go for a fulltiming thing, and I would feel uncomfortably unmoored without a real house to come back to, but in the meantime we ramble for a week or longer in our little trailer and it was a miracle portable homestead when we relocated 2/3 across the continent a few years ago.  I envy those of you who don't have seasickness issues.

[RootofGood]

Ah, bumfuzzle.  A way I kept myself sane during some of the bad days in the cube.  I also love these guys' blog: http://tendervittles.net/Default/

Unfortunately, I basically get seasick on wet pavement despite spending about every weekend on a small boat on Barnegat Bay growing up.  Happily RVing scratches many of the same happy places sans the nausea.  DW would never go for a fulltiming thing, and I would feel uncomfortably unmoored without a real house to come back to, but in the meantime we ramble for a week or longer in our little trailer and it was a miracle portable homestead when we relocated 2/3 across the continent a few years ago.  I envy those of you who don't have seasickness issues.

I think many used bumfuzzle to keep sanity in check while deep in the cube trenches. 

I don't suffer seasickness but everyone else in the family does.  Which means I have to choose between boats and family.  So far the family is winning just slightly.  :)  The seven day all inclusive mass market cruises are about the smallest ships the rest of the family can sail on.  Other than an hour or two in a canoe, jon boat or kayak that is. 

[wjquigs]

I just found this article my dad wrote with some pretty good photos of Puff.  I think that's me on deck in the middle below the sail if you squint real hard.  That top photo is circa 1982??
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/vintage/multihulls/index.cfm

What an amazing boat!  It looks like a Wharram (and your dad says in the article he was influenced by Wharram's designs).  James Wharram was one of the original Mustachians--he designed simple plywood catamarans, influenced by Polynesian outriggers, that could (and did) sail around the world.  He thumbed his nose at the yachting establishment and proved that you didn't need a lot of money to have a boat that could cross oceans.  He wrote a few Mustachian books, including "Two girls, two catamarans", about crossing the Atlantic.  He's still actively designing boats today.

A few other posters have asked about cruising.  First, keep in mind that living on a boat can be very inexpensive, even if you don't go anywhere!  In the San Francisco Bay area, every once in a while an old, wooden Chris Craft of 40-feet length or so and inoperable engines changes hands for under $10k.  These boats are basically inexpensive apartments on the water.  I'm sure a few buyers intend to restore the boats, but most are just looking for a cheap place to live in an area of outrageous housing.  If you go this route, an old fiberglass cruiser or trawler is probably your best bet.  Make sure that you're buying a boat in an approved liveaboard slip.  These slips are becoming rarer in the U.S. as they get squeezed out by waterfront development and anti-Mustachian weekend boaters in expensive megayachts who don't approve of the neighbors.

Another thing to remember is that while many people dream about sailing around the world, most don't actually do it, and there's nothing wrong with that.  Near Seattle, it's possible to cruise for years--even most of the way to Alaska--and barely "set foot" in the ocean.  The same is true for the east coast.  Many retired powerboaters do the "Great Circle": Intra-Coastal Waterway down the eastern seaboard, across the gulf to the Mississippi, then up to the great lakes and across to Canada or New York.  (Yes, the entire eastern half of the U.S. is kind of an island).  Why wait until you're 65?  Nobody is born knowing how to get a boat across the Gulf Stream, or how to read clouds and know it's going to rain.  Every experienced boater starts somewhere.  There are actually a lot of free or almost free boats available.  Many sailboats in the 20- to 28-foot range are abandoned in marinas, and the marina eventually gets a lien on unpaid moorage and auctions the boats for a pittance.  They usually need a lot of work but they float.  So buy one of them, learn to sail (or learn whether you actually like sailing), and sell and move up.  The other Mustachian advantage of starting small is that you learn the real costs of boating--maintenance, moorage, etc., and you can determine in advance whether the bigger boat really fits your budget and lifestyle.

While 95% of boats and boaters are about as Mustachian as a Porsche Cayenne, it doesn't have to be that way.  Look for community boating in your area--if you're anywhere near a body of water, chances are you can get out on it for cheap, and you can bring your kids.  You can learn to sail for free or nearly free through many of these programs.  Sailing is great for kids--how many other vehicles can a 6-year-old drive themselves?  My daughter (6) can steer my 32-foot sailboat (which I built myself--a lot cheaper than store-bought).  Last weekend my family rowed around on Lake Union in a classic wooden rowboat.  My son was the captain/pirate, my daughter was the navigator/bird spotter, and it cost us all of $17.

Here are a few more blogs that might be of interest to those thinking about boating:

A family with two young kids on an old Chris Craft:
https://adventuresofwildrose.wordpress.com

Minimalist cruising (a family with 3 kids):
http://www.sailingtotem.com/2014/04/reduce-reuse-recycle-how-cruising-kills.html

There are many sailing blogs linked on www.threesheetsnw.com.  Lots of them feature family cruising and cruising on a budget.

Bill

[amha]

I posted this elsewhere on the forum, but I'll link it here, too, since y'all might appreciate it: HOLD FAST (), a documentary about a band of young Mustachians who get together, fix up an old abandoned sailboat for super-cheap, and spend a summer cruising around the Caribbean (almost for free). It's fantastic and inspiring.

The first couple minutes are a little slow, but they do provide an interesting history of how 20th-century American consumerism combined with indestructible fiberglass boat hulls has allowed 21st-century DIYers to sail on the cheap.

[Spartana]

After spending many years at sea while in the Coast Guard I thought I wanted to become a full time blue water cruiser once I was out.  Now-ex dh (also a retired coastie) and I had a sailboat all ready to go for that once we both ER'd. However we divorced before that happened (he got the boat) and since then I've changed my mind. Partly was the mind-numbing boredom of life at sea and all that down time on a small boat doing nothing but contemplating the navel (and self-contemplation is something I hate). Partly it was the financial aspect of having to purchase and equip another sailboat. Partly it was having to deal with the hassle of mooring or docking a sailboat during the times I wasn't using it and the expense of that.  Partly it was being unable to use the boat to cross land too and having to be "sea-locked" much of the time. But mostly it was just the mind-numbing boredom of life at sea.  I now prefer to bike, walk, fly, train, bus or just drive and feel I have more freedom with less hassle or expense that way compared to cruising. Plus I feel I get to see more diverse areas of the world without having to spend so much time looking out over the endless nothingness of the ocean for weeks at a time. However my step-brother cashed it all in and did several multi-year long sail cruises around the world and he had some great adventures. He was even paralyzed from the waist down from a hang gliding accident decades earlier and was still able to single handedly sail around the world. Very cool dude. He said his expenses average about $500/month (not counting the cost to buy the boat - a Hunter 45).

[Roland of Gilead]

Wow that is the first time I have heard anyone say the cruising life was boring but I could see the life not appealing to everyone.

[YK-Phil]

My 22-year old daughter and her partner finally moved on their Catalina 36 a few days ago with their two dogs, after spending the whole winter preparing it for their summer departure. Exciting, and a bit stressful for a father.

[Spartana]

Wow that is the first time I have heard anyone say the cruising life was boring but I could see the life not appealing to everyone.

I think it depends on where, and how, you cruise. I spent about 10 years at sea in the coast guard (big ships out for many months at a time as well as smaller patrol boats out many weeks at a time) and then lived on a sailboat and did a lot of sailing after I was out. Plans were to do long distance blue water cruising (circumnavigation) once ERed. But that really doesn't interest me any longer because of the long stretches at sea (I'd rather be riding my bike or hiking or...well something more active). However, coastal cruising - i.e. somewhere where I can go into a port everyday and explore the land in various places - is VERY appealing to me. However I can do that by other means than owning a boat. And those are means I like better too. My step brother did several long solo circumnavigations around the world - the longest and fastest was 26,000 nautical miles in 53 weeks - and it would have bored me to tears - except the port stops. Love the port stops :-)! But I can see how other's would enjoy long days at sea with nothing but the wind and water for days (weeks? Months?) on end. Not for me though. Been there, done that.

[Spartana]

Reviving this thread instead of starting a new one as we are planning to live a mustachian lifestyle on a sailboat after we finish touring the USA with our little 17 foot Montgomery sailboat (plan to sail in some body of water in 49 states....a Monty has been sailed to Hawaii but the guy was single and probably smelled a bit after the ~35 day trip).

We are going to go in stages.  Stage 1 we are starting in 2015, selling our house and most possessions and traveling the country in our homebuilt flatbed truck/camper which will carry our dual sport motorcycles and pull our sailboat.  We built our own because we couldn't find anything to buy that wasn't crap.

Stage 2 will be selling the truck, camper, maybe the motorcycles, and sadly the sailboat.  A 17 foot sailboat with a 600 pound lead keel is a bit much to use as a dinghy on a larger boat.  :-)

I want to look for a used 32 to 42 foot boat.  I am seriously considering removing the diesel engine if it has one and installing a Torqueedo electric motor drive and a decent chunk of solar.  I would have a good sized battery bank but mostly use the electric motor during docking or maneuvering around coral (no experience with that yet).  We use a small Torqueedo on our 17 footer and it does the job quite nicely, pushing us at 4.5 knots at full thrust (hull speed is limited anyway on a small boat).

Anyone currently living on a sailboat I would love to hear your experiences.

Hey Roland I just re-read your post (didn't realize it was an older thread that was revived) and it sounds like you do intend to do a full time liveaboard  as well as some more local cruising rather than long distance cruising over vast oceans (is this correct?).  If that's the case then my live aboard experience is limited to a small liveaboard (27 ft Erikson) sailboat in SoCal that DH (now ex) and I lived in for awhile before buying a house. We were both working full time then so it was a bit of a hassle, but we both wore uniforms so didn't need a lot of clothes and stuff. Limited storage mean not much room for much else so did need storage (mostly for our "toys" like multiple bikes, dive equipment, extra clothes, skis, etc...). The main expenses are dock fees (which can be VERY high here in SoCal with VERY extremely limited liveaboard space in most marinas - sometimes only one space per 10 or 20 or more spots) but that included electric and water plus use of the marina showers, bathrooms and laundry and a parking pass. Maintenance and repair was the second biggest expense. Then there were issues with pumping your gray water and black water (sewer) tanks (usually used the marina heads) and some minimal hassle with the partying non-live aboard people. Can get pretty noisy many nights and weekends. Then there is the endless bird poop on everything (sea gulls and pelicans) and but usually ways to ditto get them off the boat if you were there.  Of course the biggest thing is the cost of the boat (mine was about $12K) but it can be as expensive or inexpensive as you want. Just be ware that some marinas only allow boats of a certain age to keep out the mustachian riff-raff :-)!  So it can be a great frugal way to live, one I'd highly recommend, but it is much different then a full time sailing/cruising kind of life. Lots of down time doing nothing if you are crossing oceans like your friend who spend 35 days in a 17 ft boat to Hawaii (my inner adventurer is awestruck with admiration for that while my inner ex-coastie wants to face punch him for doing that on such a tiny boat!). But people have very romanticized ideals about full  time cruising on a sailboat (which is usually very slow too) and until someone actually does it long term it's probably hard to know if you'd love it or hate it. I personally love being at sea for months or years at a time on a working ship where I am doing lots of physical stuff, but am not fond of sailing long distances in my own small boat with little to do.

[kyanamerinas]

narrowboats are a great and increasingly popular option in the uk, just trying to find a blog i used to read on liveaboards.
they are basically long, slim (7 foot wide) boats designed for the network of canals around the uk. allows you to see lots of the country at a leisurely pace if you like. have spoken to a few people who have retired (in 50s) to cruise the canals on a narrowboat.
this obviously only really works in the UK but I love them so I thought I'd point them out!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrowboat

[YK-Phil]

narrowboats are a great and increasingly popular option in the uk, just trying to find a blog i used to read on liveaboards.
they are basically long, slim (7 foot wide) boats designed for the network of canals around the uk. allows you to see lots of the country at a leisurely pace if you like. have spoken to a few people who have retired (in 50s) to cruise the canals on a narrowboat.
this obviously only really works in the UK but I love them so I thought I'd point them out!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrowboat

"Péniches" (relatively similar to narrowboats) are still used to travel along the canals and river network in France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, and some parts of Italy, and are increasingly very popular live-aboard and travel options nowadays. Many of these slow boats were completely refurbished as living quarters and are now used as offices, apartments, and travel boats all over these countries. It is an attractive way to see these beautiful areas of Europe and do some slow and relaxing tourism, but perhaps a bit too sluggish for someone who needs a bit of adrenaline once in a while. I wouldn't mind doing this for a few months but not more.

[ksoto]

Hi There!

Several years ago I quit my job, sold my house and lived on a sailboat for two years. At the time I was married and had three small children and a cat. We were in Maryland and after we moved aboard in the Fall we headed south. We headed down the coast both "inside",  meaning the intracoastal waterway, and outside meaning offshore in the Atlantic Ocean. From Florida we went to the Bahamas and then the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico and down the Caribbean to the Grenadines. Turned around and headed back to Florida where we sold the boat and moved back onshore.

What was it like? It was perhaps the most amazing and interesting time of my life. Also, I have never worked harder or enjoyed working more. Work involved the maintenance, logistics, teaching (the children), planning passages  and sailing. All of the decisions one makes while doing this are real. They can come back and bite you and bite hard. But I have never felt more alive. Not only is there the adventure but it is also a very healthy lifestyle. Forget forgoing a car in favor of a bike . . . get used to walking!  We walked everywhere, often miles at a time just to run an errand. Every meal seemed like a feast after living such active days. We often heard others living the same life that food tastes better on the boat, and it's true.

So, is it "mustachian"? Well, it can be very "mustachian" or you can find yourself on the same treadmill that many people living ashore are on. There is always another boat in the anchorage that has something you don't have on your boat.  Perhaps it is better electronics or a water maker or just a bigger more comfortable boat. If you succumb to the urge to buy more stuff the results are similar to those on land, your life becomes more complicated.

At one point we were sailing south through the Bahamas in a loose group with a few other boats. One was a huge new boat owned by an apparently wealthy individual and he had his wife and young son onboard. He told me he wanted to simplify his life. They had every convenience (when they worked) and toy possible (why move onto a boat?). Another boat in our group was was much smaller, about 28 feet, and was sailed by a young couple who had saved for several years and quit their jobs to go cruising. Their boat was older and simple and they had spent the two years before leaving restoring it. They knew it inside and out. The guy with the big fancy boat was always arranging to have stuff fixed and spare parts shipped. Trying to find people to make repairs to equipment he knew little about.  Always complaining and  always  stressed. The other couple? They were having the time of their lives. the last I saw them they had rented a slip on St. Thomas and had gotten jobs waiting tables. At the restaurant in the marina where they were living! They had been out over a year and felt that three months working would give them another year. The other guy? He put his boat for sale in St. Thomas and gave up after less than a year.

How about us? We were somewhere in between. My wife at the time was prone to want the stuff she saw on other boats and they I would often tend to go along. To keep the cruise going and also because I like learning new things, I'm a geek. The flip side was that I spent too much time maintaining and repairing this stuff. The wife and kids would head to the beach for the day and I would tackle a project. Not that different from the postings I read on the forum from people whose spouses have different goals than they do. Although we perhaps had some of the best times of our marriage while living on the boat, the experience was the beginning of the end of our relationship. When returning to land I was even more sure of the sort of life I wanted to live and it was not the typical american life of empty materialism. We parted ways a few years later.

But, overall it was a great experience. My two older children remember it as the best time of there lives and they are very un-materialistic and adventuresome and are living very nonconventional lives. They are very happy. The youngest has few memories of the trip and although she is happy, her life is more conventional.

I retired "kind of early" a year ago and have been having a year of adventures of a very different sort but the plan is to buy a boat in the next year or two and go out and do it again. It WILL be better this time!

[iris lily]

Touring by foot or bike would also be an adventure and less gear intense.

I agree with that, it seems to me that you have to start out with a high cost investment to get to that "simple" life on the water.

I'm not attracted to large bodies of water, so it's not an appealing lifestyle for me.

Now, a gypsy caravan--I'd be all over that. And I hang out on Ebay looking at 13" Scamp travel trailers, they are so cute.