Critics & how to deal with them

[Huskie87]

Can someone point me in the direction of the proper place to talk about this topic?

My in-laws are becoming more and more critical of me and my wife as we choose to value material items less and less.  This way of living is directly challenging their values, even though we don't openly criticize their actions.  Instead of accepting that we do things differently, they're starting to lash out and tease us.  My reaction has been to take a deep breath and just try to understand that they're probably feeling defensive about their actions and would rather critique us than accept the reality that their lives could have been very different if they didn't choose to live paycheck to paycheck their entire lives.

Anyways, does this forum have a particular thread for sharing stories and ways of managing this criticism?  I'm just interested to hear from others who have gone through the same

[Zikoris]

Being very direct and calling people out on bad behaviour is generally very effective, but you need to be consistent and do it every time. Your post is kind of vague as to the specifics, but some variant of "Why does it bother you when I do X?", or "Why do you take issue with X?". Addressing that stuff bluntly and directly makes people uncomfortable. That's good. You want to make it uncomfortable for them. Like dog training.

[brute]

I don't know of a particular thread, so may as well be this one. Might I suggest an ice pick?

Seriously though, I try to give people a chance, explain my views to them and hear theirs. But if they won't listen or don't have anything intelligent to say, I write them off and remove them from my life. Family included.

[NoStacheOhio]

I wish I had something more concrete, but this is one of those scenarios where people's insecurities lead to a situation where they act like you're doing X "at them." When the reality is you're just going about your business without any regard for their internal monologue (as you should be). If you can somehow gently explain to them that your decisions aren't made with their lifestyle in mind, then that might move the needle.

It's gotten better lately, but my wife's family was pretty heavily critical of me for being "judgmental," mostly for being quiet and not growing up somewhere rural. Now, I can be plenty judgmental, but I'm never quiet about it when I do it. It was mostly tied to their own insecurities about education and money. Unfortunately, the biggest reason it's gotten better has been time. You kind of just have to go about your business, and once they see it's not a threat to their identity or lifestyle, hopefully they'll get over it.

[LifeHappens]

I like the standard advice Dear Prudence gives for these types of conflicts. The child gets to deal with his/her parents. In your case, it would be your spouse's responsibility to explain your mutual choices and ask the in-laws to please refrain from comment.

[Huskie87]

I genuinely like my in-laws, so I don't think I'd be able to write them off.  I'm also learning as I get older that changing others is a very difficult thing to do.  I've somewhat resigned myself to setting as good of an example as possible, and trying to be aware of anyone who is receptive to this way of life so I can help educate them further.

Maybe an example would be better so this isn't so vague.

A few months ago we had a wedding to go to which was about an 8 hour drive from our home.  My wife was the maid of honor and the bride to be asked her to be down a few days early to help prep and keep her nerves in check.  Since my wife was going to be busy with wedding prep and would be staying with the bride in her apartment, I booked a cheap hotel for the days leading up to the wedding so that I could be out of their hair and let them have a few nights of bonding before the big day.  I figured I'd be out golfing in the day, spending the evenings with my wife and the bride, and would only be spending a few hours in the hotel each night, so no need to book anything fancy.  Well, plans changed, and my in-laws were all invited as well, so we ended up getting to the wedding the day before, not several days before.  I dropped the in-laws off at the fancy hotel ($250/night) where the wedding would be held the following day and made my way over to the $70/night hotel that I had already booked previously (with no cancellation options unfortunately).

Long story short, some entertaining things happened when I checked into the hotel which made the place sound more sketchy than it really was.  (a guest alluded to the idea that he was going to beat up the front desk clerk over rewards points) I told the story to my wife and in-laws because I knew they'd get a good laugh out of it, but now I haven't heard the end of it.  "just Huskie being cheap again", "good thing my daughter wasn't there, you shouldn't be taking her to places like that".

Well guys...I wasn't planning on taking your daughter there, and I think it's somewhat ridiculous to think I'd book a second hotel for the night for an additional $250.  The hotel I stayed at was just fine, it was clean and there weren't any other interesting guests.  Just a difference in priorities I guess.

[scantee]

Being very direct and calling people out on bad behaviour is generally very effective, but you need to be consistent and do it every time. Your post is kind of vague as to the specifics, but some variant of "Why does it bother you when I do X?", or "Why do you take issue with X?". Addressing that stuff bluntly and directly makes people uncomfortable. That's good. You want to make it uncomfortable for them. Like dog training.

I agree with this. It looks like you are from Minnesota, home to the world's most indirect communicators. If that's true, I'm guessing that you are likely very non-confrontational and find direct communication uncomfortable. Know that being direct is not the same as being rude. A statement like, "I don't appreciate when you talk about us like that" is a totally appropriate thing to say when someone is being judgmental, in addition to being a very effective way to shut criticism down very quickly.

Long-term, the best strategy is to cultivate not giving a fuck what other people think of you and your life decisions. Part of this is temperamental (certainly there are people out there that are just not as sensitive to judgment, I would count myself as one such person), but I do think there are things that you can do to strengthen your sense of internal validation so that you're not as reliant on the external validation you get when other people show approval of your life choices. Anything that makes you feel really content as a person will help with this: training for a marathon or other intense physical activity, volunteering, taking on a challenging work project, planning and going on a really satisfying vacation, doing a successful but challenging home improvement project, are some examples.

[Huskie87]

Originally from Chicago, so I know what you mean.  I don't really care what they think, my curiosity is how people respond in these situations.  The natural reaction is to educate them and tell them what's right an wrong, make them see the error of their ways...  but I feel like the best thing is to treat this as something that's outside my circle of control and instead wait and embrace anyone who sees the positive benefits of the practices we all base our lives around.  I'm hopeful that nieces and nephews will recognize that Uncle Huskie has a lot of free time in his early 40s and hopefully will seek to understand why their parents are still working full time (along with possibly grandma and grandpa)

[Mtngrl]

My usual reaction to this kind of thing is to say "Well, this works for us," and then change the subject. It makes no judgment about their choice and doesn't leave a lot of room for further input. If they do keep harping on it, just keep repeating yourself and changing topics.

[Retire-Canada]

If they don't stop teasing you I would have a dozen witty retorts ready that makes gentle fun of their lifestyle. Unleash one for each time they tease you and if they don't tease you don't say anything. If they are clued in they'd get it and shut up. If they are not they get offended and the discussion around them being offended will give you the opportunity to point out their behaviour is offending you.

[firelight]

+1 for asking "why is X a problem for you?". I find that it causes people to realize they are stepping over a line (sometimes it is unintentional) and would cause most people to think before they talk about it again. YMMV

[ender]

I agree with this. It looks like you are from Minnesota, home to the world's most indirect communicators.

As a former Minnesotan this might be true in the USA but if you compare Minnesotans worldwide they are a lot more direct than many cultures.

[Grogounet]

I genuinely like my in-laws, so I don't think I'd be able to write them off.  I'm also learning as I get older that changing others is a very difficult thing to do.  I've somewhat resigned myself to setting as good of an example as possible, and trying to be aware of anyone who is receptive to this way of life so I can help educate them further.

Maybe an example would be better so this isn't so vague.

A few months ago we had a wedding to go to which was about an 8 hour drive from our home.  My wife was the maid of honor and the bride to be asked her to be down a few days early to help prep and keep her nerves in check.  Since my wife was going to be busy with wedding prep and would be staying with the bride in her apartment, I booked a cheap hotel for the days leading up to the wedding so that I could be out of their hair and let them have a few nights of bonding before the big day.  I figured I'd be out golfing in the day, spending the evenings with my wife and the bride, and would only be spending a few hours in the hotel each night, so no need to book anything fancy.  Well, plans changed, and my in-laws were all invited as well, so we ended up getting to the wedding the day before, not several days before.  I dropped the in-laws off at the fancy hotel ($250/night) where the wedding would be held the following day and made my way over to the $70/night hotel that I had already booked previously (with no cancellation options unfortunately).

Long story short, some entertaining things happened when I checked into the hotel which made the place sound more sketchy than it really was.  (a guest alluded to the idea that he was going to beat up the front desk clerk over rewards points) I told the story to my wife and in-laws because I knew they'd get a good laugh out of it, but now I haven't heard the end of it.  "just Huskie being cheap again", "good thing my daughter wasn't there, you shouldn't be taking her to places like that".

Well guys...I wasn't planning on taking your daughter there, and I think it's somewhat ridiculous to think I'd book a second hotel for the night for an additional $250.  The hotel I stayed at was just fine, it was clean and there weren't any other interesting guests.  Just a difference in priorities I guess.

Very interesting. I made a post recently because I was proud of our savings this year. Why on MMM? Because I didn't feel comfortable I could share with anyone else.

Our in-laws are the same. They think we're "tight asses", etc... My wife's sister sent us a link for her nieces' Xmas present... OMG.. $75 for a bike?!?! Are you kidding?!?!
When I explained to my in-law that we're sending the wrong message from early + a 2 year old would probably not care/remember if used before... Almost turned into a fight.

I don't believe there is a silver bullet solution. Each will have to find their own. What I have said to them is that I could criticize their habits of wasting money on unecessary luxuries that would bring nothing to earth or even their happiness, that I genuinely preferred camping to hotel, even at a wedding, and that I would never criticized their choice... The other part is that I have asked them not to criticize ours.

I even didn't try to enter into the FI conversation, they would be chocked and call us "lazy" on top of "tight asses" :-)))

[Rife]

One thing I have always observed about money and friends/family is that everyone wants to feel that they are better with it than you (if you spend differently of course). In this case, it sounds like they may have perceived your choice of hotel as a criticism of theirs, and for all I know you may have outright said it is too expensive. Then when you shared a story that made the place sound bad, even though it was intended as a funny story, they jumped into "Ha! I told you so!" mode. They will likely forever justify their more expensive hotel choices by sharing an exaggerated version of your story.

My Dad's policy that he taught me was to never talk about money ever with anyone (socially that is). I find that a judgement is almost always following a question about cost or salary etc. Now, of course, in this case,  the money difference was just known. They feel that you are too cheap, you know you are smart with money, so this is something you will likely just always disagree on. I would try to avoid bringing up anything money related around them. My mother likes to make off-hand type comments to my wife that are clearly judgmental even though we actually save well over half our disposable income (but again, we never ever speak of money directly). Usually about how many clothes or toys my daughter has or something like that. Generally, she really is looking for signs that we spend too much on something she doesn't approve of. In her case, it is more like "well, she sure has a lot of toys" made to sound as if she routinely counts childrens toys and had to comment that ours had more than the average. She really is looking for signs that we are being smart with money.

Personally, I would mostly just try to make sure you aren't stoking the fire by being critical of them. If you try to make them feel like they overspend then it is fairplay for them to make you feel cheap. No one wants to be wrong (even if they are).

[Grogounet]

Thats the exact issue. I don't believe the subject is discussed at all.
Every time they spend on something, which we all do every day, this will be another option for criticism.

So whether you say something or act, or decide to ignore.
I don't believe Huskie87 is ready to ignore.

[Johnez]

I will play the devil's advocate and say this-what is the big deal? You sound a bit insecure honestly, why not take it in stride and joke right back?

[Metric Mouse]

One thing I have always observed about money and friends/family is that everyone wants to feel that they are better with it than you (if you spend differently of course). In this case, it sounds like they may have perceived your choice of hotel as a criticism of theirs, and for all I know you may have outright said it is too expensive. Then when you shared a story that made the place sound bad, even though it was intended as a funny story, they jumped into "Ha! I told you so!" mode. They will likely forever justify their more expensive hotel choices by sharing an exaggerated version of your story.

I see a fist fight in a hotel lobby as a positive!  Many people pay more than $70 to get front row seats to these kinds of activities. :D

I would had had to ask the relatives what show was put on in their hotel lobby.  But then, I get quite a bit of flak for my lifestyle, and even more for my attitude about people who think I must be "cheap" because of my choices, so I may not be the best person to take advice from.

[Mattzlaff]

I routinely get teased at work because my coworkers see me as a cheapskate. I DYI most of everything that comes up I don't plan on the next vacation or the next vehicle to buy.

but one example I can think of is.

I only pay for internet, no cable TV, I get teased about this for some reason. I explain that the cost for the TV I want to watch is far greater than my need to actually watch it, I'm talking why pay 200$ for 1-3 HRs of TV a week. I in fact save 130$/mo(1560$/year) more than they do because of this, and generally get the TV shows I want to watch from the guys at work.

That's just one example but there's more than that. I do what everyone else here has said to do, either confront them with a "why does that offend you if it works for me?" sort of question. Or ignore it completely, which is hard to do because I spend 12 HRs a day with these guys.

it's funny but,

I also get teased the other way, my friends group that I have known all my life weren't blessed with the same life choices I made. They're not making near what I make. But I get teased from them because I "live like they do" meaning I don't buy the fancy nice furniture/go out for fancy dinners that my coworkers buy, I buy IKEA/used(for most of my stuff) and it works great.

[Rife]

Thats the exact issue. I don't believe the subject is discussed at all.
Every time they spend on something, which we all do every day, this will be another option for criticism.

So whether you say something or act, or decide to ignore.
I don't believe Huskie87 is ready to ignore.

If it is a situation where you both agree you are having a real financial discussion then that is different, but parents rarely want to get financial advice from their children. I guess I am mostly saying that is part of life. They saw a "win" for their higher spending team. If someone pays more for a hotel closer to the destination then both will go to their rooms thinking they made a smarter choice. One cause he got to his room earlier and the other for saving money. We all want to think we win and criticize whether we intend to or not. It is at least possible that the OP stoked the fire with a comment of is own that he may not even remember.

I do agree with asking why is it a big deal? Own being the "cheapskate" the way you own being the us who drives an old economy car and not a big new truck or whatever.

[ender]

I've found some ways to really dodge this issue is to make sure people know what you are being luxurious on so they don't feel as judged.

For example, we recently bought a new car, primarily because it was cheaper per mile than used ones for that model, but it's an easy way to mention we do spend money/etc. Everyone has things like this to some level.

It makes it nice too if you have a nebulous thing you are working towards too. Maybe it's "paying off debt" (a mortgage is debt right?) or otherwise a large, vague thing you can talk about. "Houses are expensive..." etc.

[englishteacheralex]

People are judgy about money. Money is a reflection of your values and priorities in life, so it makes sense that others judge--it's a hugely loaded topic, maybe the most loaded topic there is.

An anecdote: The diciest relationship in my life is the one with my mom. She is a difficult person to get along with and is horribly insecure. For my wedding, she wrote me a check for 10k, no strings attached, and told me I could use it however I wanted--wedding, down payment, savings, pay off student debt: whatever. FWIW, in my opinion, this is the best way for parents to help out financially with a wedding.

We decided to use the whole thing on our wedding, and thus 10k became our wedding budget.

Now, a little background: I happen to be a schoolteacher used to living on a small salary. However, I come from a family of multi-millionaire stockbrokers. I have been to some fancy-ass weddings thrown by my relatives. The summer before my wedding, my brother had a wedding that had to have been $50k-$60k (he married a stockbroker's daughter).

My mom didn't marry a rich guy, and she has made some somewhat poor decisions with her money. $10k was very generous of her, and that seemed like a reasonable amount to spend on a wedding to me. Hey, I'm Mustachian; finding deals is fun! We planned a gorgeous wedding for 150 guests that looked like a million bucks due to lots of help and hookups from friends.

When my mom showed up in my now hometown a week before the wedding (she didn't help with any of the planning because it would have stressed both of us out way too much) I made the mistake of constantly harping on all the bargains I had gotten. Over and over I mentioned how little everything cost, because I was so proud of all my frugal accomplishments.

This made my mom eventually lose her shit. To me, all my conversations with her about my bargains and hookups were points of pride and excitement. To her, it was rubbing it in that she couldn't give me the kind of fancy-pants wedding my cousins/brother had. She felt shamed. It took a lot of apologizing and cajoling on my part to get her back into the spirit of things, and I think (three years later) the whole situation still bothers her.

Lesson learned: not everyone is in a position to rightly understand your money choices. Pick the audience for these discussions very, very carefully. Don't expect people to understand. Love them anyway. And for god's sake don't bring this stuff up.

[BlueHouse]

all good suggestions so far.  Another tack might be:  don't read anything into their comments and answer with facts only.  Become Spock and only answer with logic and no emotion.  The explanation for the room would be:   "Hotel X was the best choice at the time I made reservations.  When the plan changed, I kept the reservation because it was non-refundable.  The hotel was safe, clean, and just a few minutes away from "Fancy Hotel".  I saw no reason to change from my original plan. "

No drama, no emotion needed.  Be the Spock! 

Ender's distraction method also works well.  "We're saving for something else" . 

[MrsDinero]

Make a game out of it.  Tell them every time they criticize or pass judgment you are going to add $50 (or some other arbitrary amount) to your FIRE accounts, then every month tell them how much extra you saved and thank them for their assistance.