Covid vaccine rollout in the US - who do you know that is getting the vaccine?

[seattlecyclone]

The part of my post that you cut off addressed this:

I'm not saying that people should stop trying to reduce their consumption, but it doesn't seem remotely likely that this will be enough.

There's no magic pill that gets us out of this without accepting responsibility.  Individual people certainly need to reduce their consumption - on that we seem to agree.  In fact, that's pretty commonly agreed upon.

Sure, agreed. Relying on voluntary individual action will not solve the climate problem because the number of people who are willing and able to act differently is smaller than the size of the problem. Collective action to change the incentive structures in place (carbon taxes at a start) is needed. Make it cheaper to own an electric car than a gasoline car and people will switch even if they don't care one bit about climate change.

To the extent that corporations have lobbied against such action they should absolutely be called out on that and opposed most forcefully. At the same time I think these lists saying that it's really the fossil fuel extraction corporations who are responsible for most of our carbon emissions, rather than the individuals who actually literally burned the fuel in their vehicles and homes and whatnot, it just doesn't seem to be putting credit where credit is due. I don't think it's "tying one hand behind our backs" to point out that we've all contributed to this problem. These lists seem to do the opposite by implying that everyone but the top 100 corporations is only responsible for 30% of the problem, so there's not really even much point in trying individual action and we should just enjoy our big trucks while we have them.

[the_fixer]

At this point, I don't care.  Somehow, others are getting boosters.  I would like to feel a bit safer around the chin maskers (and worse).

If I had gotten J&J and was, say, medically vulnerable and had to work with the public and just desperately wanted to get a booster... I think a person could cross a state line and walk into any pharmacy and tell them you wanted to get your first dose. They don't track it federally, just by state, so they wouldn't know you already had a dose of J&J.

Just realize that it might complicate any future ability to prove you're fully vaccinated if that ends up requiring a booster.

Or for example I rode my bike past a vaccination buss the other day that said no cost, no insurance needed no documentation needed.

It was my understanding that you are not required to have documentation, insurance or make payment because they wanted everyone even the undocumented foreigners and homeless to get vaccinated.

Seems someone could just go in and claim to be homeless or undocumented?


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[geekette]

I would have a hard time passing as homeless or undocumented.

My doctor replied that he expected guidance shortly. I’ll take a J&J, if that’s all I’m offered, but if I ever find myself out of state, I may go into a pharmacy saying I just moved.

[the_fixer]

I would have a hard time passing as homeless or undocumented.

My doctor replied that he expected guidance shortly. I’ll take a J&J, if that’s all I’m offered, but if I ever find myself out of state, I may go into a pharmacy saying I just moved.

Listening to your doctor is the best advice!

My spouse had the Moderna shots and takes immune suppressing drugs and has risk factors so we are eagerly awaiting to see what is recommended going forward for her situation.

Personally I would not want to be out of the standard of what is recommended but I have a friend that wants a booster NOW and does not qualify. When I passed the vaccination buss and read it I thought to myself that I wonder if someone could really just walk up to the buss and get a shot with no documentation.

Homeless/ undocumented was just the couple of the common reasons for lack of documentation that popped to mind. The US took that into account when deciding how to get the most people vaccinated and realizing that there are multiple circumstances where someone might not want to or be able to provide documentation the goal was to get as many people vaccinated.

And FYI you would not be able to tell all homeless or undocumented individuals by how they look or dress that is just an assumption / stigma ;)


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[geekette]

I would love to have gotten in on one of the studies that paired boosters from different manufacturers. Data coming “soon”.

Other countries have already done this.

[Sugaree]

The husband of a co-worker died this afternoon.  He was 33 years-old, unvaccinated, no pre-existing conditions, and leaves behind two kids under the age of 8.  What a damn waste.

[Dollar Slice]

My spouse had the Moderna shots and takes immune suppressing drugs and has risk factors so we are eagerly awaiting to see what is recommended going forward for her situation.

In case you weren't aware, people on certain immune-suppressing drugs already qualify for a third shot if they had either Moderna or Pfizer (apologies to the J&Jers as always). Info from the CDC here: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/recommendations/immuno.html

List of qualifications includes "Active treatment with high-dose corticosteroids or other drugs that may suppress your immune response".

[the_fixer]

My spouse had the Moderna shots and takes immune suppressing drugs and has risk factors so we are eagerly awaiting to see what is recommended going forward for her situation.

In case you weren't aware, people on certain immune-suppressing drugs already qualify for a third shot if they had either Moderna or Pfizer (apologies to the J&Jers as always). Info from the CDC here: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/recommendations/immuno.html

List of qualifications includes "Active treatment with high-dose corticosteroids or other drugs that may suppress your immune response".

Thanks!!! We were unaware that Moderna was included and thought it only applied to Pfizer.

I will let her know tonight.


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[Dollar Slice]

My spouse had the Moderna shots and takes immune suppressing drugs and has risk factors so we are eagerly awaiting to see what is recommended going forward for her situation.

In case you weren't aware, people on certain immune-suppressing drugs already qualify for a third shot if they had either Moderna or Pfizer (apologies to the J&Jers as always). Info from the CDC here: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/recommendations/immuno.html

List of qualifications includes "Active treatment with high-dose corticosteroids or other drugs that may suppress your immune response".

Thanks!!! We were unaware that Moderna was included and thought it only applied to Pfizer.

I will let her know tonight.

Sure, happy to help!

With some drugs they try to time it around the administration of the drug (if it's, for example, an infusion you get monthly or quarterly), so you might need to talk to the doctor beforehand if that's the case. If it's not something where the immune system waxes and wanes you can just go find a location that has Moderna and say yo, I am on immune-suppressing drugs and I qualify for a third dose, and they will add it to your existing CDC card and give you the shot.

[lost_in_the_endless_aisle]

And focusing on individual responsibility too much absolves corporate responsibility. Huge marketing and lobbying budgets influence to a significant degree how individuals act.

We can say that companies are just providing what people want, but they are also going to great lengths to tell us what to want and working hard against regulations that might make the products offered better at the possible expense of some of their profits in the short term.

Moralizing in either direction fails in part because of the tremendous path dependency in our current society. If different urban organization had prevailed, the car-dependent US culture wouldn't be as entrenched. If people valued relationships more compared to status symbols, certain toxic elements of car culture would be further reduced. If consumerism and status displays took a different form, large houses would be less common and demand less energy.

Dividing the world into corporations.and individuals misses the interplay between the two mediated by culture and human nature. But there is a simple solution that almost no one likes: carbon taxes.

[mm1970]

The husband of a co-worker died this afternoon.  He was 33 years-old, unvaccinated, no pre-existing conditions, and leaves behind two kids under the age of 8.  What a damn waste.

It really is, but will any of his friends and relatives get the shot now?  I wonder.

[kenmoremmm]

The husband of a co-worker died this afternoon.  He was 33 years-old, unvaccinated, no pre-existing conditions, and leaves behind two kids under the age of 8.  What a damn waste.

It really is, but will any of his friends and relatives get the shot now?  I wonder.

Similar story here:
https://www.kimberleybulletin.com/news/covid-19-delta-variant-claims-young-b-c-dad-and-farmer/
Of course in BC, where there is 80%+ fully vaccinated, and 87%+ partially vaccinated, this is much more rare. But, still mind blowing that people are still braindead on this...

[geekette]

The husband of a co-worker died this afternoon.  He was 33 years-old, unvaccinated, no pre-existing conditions, and leaves behind two kids under the age of 8.  What a damn waste.

It really is, but will any of his friends and relatives get the shot now?  I wonder.

Similar story here:
https://www.kimberleybulletin.com/news/covid-19-delta-variant-claims-young-b-c-dad-and-farmer/
Of course in BC, where there is 80%+ fully vaccinated, and 87%+ partially vaccinated, this is much more rare. But, still mind blowing that people are still braindead on this...

Sadly, I can add a local death  as well. At least her death is spurring some to get vaccinated. Won’t help her husband and 4 kids, though.

[Sugaree]

The husband of a co-worker died this afternoon.  He was 33 years-old, unvaccinated, no pre-existing conditions, and leaves behind two kids under the age of 8.  What a damn waste.

It really is, but will any of his friends and relatives get the shot now?  I wonder.

I doubt it.  I'm guessing that his circle is already too far gone for that.  Gotta own the libs, don't ya know.

[anotherAlias]

I know two couples that recently got their first jabs who were adamantly against getting the vaccine when they first came out. One individual tends toward conspiracy theory right wing nut job thinking.  I don't know what prompted them to change their minds but take some solace that at least some people are changing their minds. 

On a less remarkable note, my boyfriend's daughter decided to get fully vaccinated after her college said all students had to be vaccinated or get tested weekly.  Apparently having a swab shoved up her nose every week trumped her mother's supposed concerns over the vaccine causing infertility.  *Sigh*

[GuitarStv]

And focusing on individual responsibility too much absolves corporate responsibility. Huge marketing and lobbying budgets influence to a significant degree how individuals act.

We can say that companies are just providing what people want, but they are also going to great lengths to tell us what to want and working hard against regulations that might make the products offered better at the possible expense of some of their profits in the short term.

Moralizing in either direction fails in part because of the tremendous path dependency in our current society. If different urban organization had prevailed, the car-dependent US culture wouldn't be as entrenched. If people valued relationships more compared to status symbols, certain toxic elements of car culture would be further reduced. If consumerism and status displays took a different form, large houses would be less common and demand less energy.

Dividing the world into corporations.and individuals misses the interplay between the two mediated by culture and human nature. But there is a simple solution that almost no one likes: carbon taxes.

I'm fine with carbon taxes as a solution.  My main problem with their implementation so far has been that they don't go far enough, and therefore fail to enact the changes that they're aiming for.

[Arbitrage]

And focusing on individual responsibility too much absolves corporate responsibility. Huge marketing and lobbying budgets influence to a significant degree how individuals act.

We can say that companies are just providing what people want, but they are also going to great lengths to tell us what to want and working hard against regulations that might make the products offered better at the possible expense of some of their profits in the short term.

Absolutely.  Echoing what another poster said, I think that everyone - individuals, corporations, politicians, government - has to own their piece.  By no means do I think that most companies will 'see the light' on their own, nor do I think that individual decisions will solve the crisis.  However, I do find it hollow and empty when I see people who claim to care about the crisis being completely unwilling to make any changes in their own life, and just remain in the top 5-10% of polluters on the planet while blaming someone else. 

Perhaps it's naive, but while no individual decision makes a difference, I believe that enough individual decisions by enough individuals can start to build a culture shift...which can ease the entrenched fight against the big, hard decisions that can start to make a real difference. 

[Dee18]

Eligible seniors in Vermont are hurrying to get the third shot booster because of this news:

Vaccinated Vermonters have accounted for roughly 64% of the 42 deaths reported since July 29. That’s the most recent date for which comprehensive data is available, and roughly tracks with estimates by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention of when the Delta variant became dominant in the Northeast. Adjusting for the state’s large fully vaccinated population, unvaccinated Vermonters are still dying from Covid at a slightly higher rate than vaccinated Vermonters, by a factor of about 1.2.

[Dollar Slice]

Eligible seniors in Vermont are hurrying to get the third shot booster because of this news:

Vaccinated Vermonters have accounted for roughly 64% of the 42 deaths reported since July 29. That’s the most recent date for which comprehensive data is available, and roughly tracks with estimates by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention of when the Delta variant became dominant in the Northeast. Adjusting for the state’s large fully vaccinated population, unvaccinated Vermonters are still dying from Covid at a slightly higher rate than vaccinated Vermonters, by a factor of about 1.2.

You get odd-sounding stats like that with extremely high vaccination rates... Vermont has over 95% of their age 65+ population vaccinated, and probably similar for people who are most medically vulnerable (immune-compromised, cancer, etc.). The 70-74 age group is at 99.9%! So virtually everyone who is most likely to die from COVID is in the vaccinated group. If every sick/elderly person is vaccinated and the only unvaxed people are healthy and young (and children under 12), that will massively skew the stats.

[Geppetto]

I know two couples that recently got their first jabs who were adamantly against getting the vaccine when they first came out. One individual tends toward conspiracy theory right wing nut job thinking.  I don't know what prompted them to change their minds but take some solace that at least some people are changing their minds. 

Indeed. Your fair-minded agnosticism is refreshing. There are a lot of people who were reluctant without getting into conspiracy theories. I was one of them. I've had a million arguments with friends and acquaintances who think it's obvious that it's a "plandemic" and the vaccines are a mind control device or whatever...that stuff is trash and I hate it and try to get people to stop poisoning themselves with it. BUT I didn't get the vaccine until it had been available for over six months. Why? Because humanity has a horrible track record especially in solving complex problems fast. In this case:
 - We told Big Pharma that they have to compress a 10-year process into 8 months
 - We called it Operation Warp Speed
 - Emergency approval for adults arrived, in fact, at "warp speed" but it's still a crime to inject these things into young kids
 - By definition, no one will have any empirical data as to the long-term side effects, or absence of long-term side effects, until....the long-term - which is considered heresy to point out

Nobody has to be a conspiracy theorist to be reluctant to get injected. You just have to be a realist about what humanity is capable of inflicting upon itself out of stupidity.

For me the cost-benefit analysis tipped in late August, when the Delta variant was raging, and the concept of laying low and riding-it-out seemed less supportable. And I couldn't take the constant drumbeat of moralizing about it from my family members. So I got the shots and got everybody off my case. After the 2nd shot I had very worrisome symptoms consistent with myocarditis, and I fully expect to have problems in the future that nobody knows about yet. It's all worth it for a little peace and quiet.

Anyway the point is there are people who look at the world as it is, evaluate known and unknown factors as best they can, and then make decisions in good faith. The popular narrative is to paint all the vaccine-reluctant among us as hysterics or religious heretics. It's Sneetches on Beaches. We all learned about why we shouldn't do this, and we should be mindful.

[SpaceCow]

And focusing on individual responsibility too much absolves corporate responsibility. Huge marketing and lobbying budgets influence to a significant degree how individuals act.

We can say that companies are just providing what people want, but they are also going to great lengths to tell us what to want and working hard against regulations that might make the products offered better at the possible expense of some of their profits in the short term.

Absolutely.  Echoing what another poster said, I think that everyone - individuals, corporations, politicians, government - has to own their piece.  By no means do I think that most companies will 'see the light' on their own, nor do I think that individual decisions will solve the crisis.  However, I do find it hollow and empty when I see people who claim to care about the crisis being completely unwilling to make any changes in their own life, and just remain in the top 5-10% of polluters on the planet while blaming someone else. 

Perhaps it's naive, but while no individual decision makes a difference, I believe that enough individual decisions by enough individuals can start to build a culture shift...which can ease the entrenched fight against the big, hard decisions that can start to make a real difference.

Amen to this whole dialog. I've had many liberal, environmentalist friends who remote start their clown cars for 10-15 minutes before driving to work in the winter. When questioned, they've replied that their own vehicle use is really insignificant. After all "big corporations" do the vast majority of the polluting anyways. Seems like taking the easy way out.

[StashingAway]

And focusing on individual responsibility too much absolves corporate responsibility. Huge marketing and lobbying budgets influence to a significant degree how individuals act.

We can say that companies are just providing what people want, but they are also going to great lengths to tell us what to want and working hard against regulations that might make the products offered better at the possible expense of some of their profits in the short term.

Absolutely.  Echoing what another poster said, I think that everyone - individuals, corporations, politicians, government - has to own their piece.  By no means do I think that most companies will 'see the light' on their own, nor do I think that individual decisions will solve the crisis.  However, I do find it hollow and empty when I see people who claim to care about the crisis being completely unwilling to make any changes in their own life, and just remain in the top 5-10% of polluters on the planet while blaming someone else. 

Perhaps it's naive, but while no individual decision makes a difference, I believe that enough individual decisions by enough individuals can start to build a culture shift...which can ease the entrenched fight against the big, hard decisions that can start to make a real difference.

Amen to this whole dialog. I've had many liberal, environmentalist friends who remote start their clown cars for 10-15 minutes before driving to work in the winter. When questioned, they've replied that their own vehicle use is really insignificant. After all "big corporations" do the vast majority of the polluting anyways. Seems like taking the easy way out.

I would like to present a counter to this to perhaps give some more nuance. It may not be the "easy way out", it's just the nature of having such a spread out negative externality. Every lb of CO2 I reduce is spread across 7 billion people. That means statistically I have 0 overall impact. And warming up a car has a measurable impact on day-to-day activities. Which means I'm sacrificing something substantial for something with zero impact. There are other related scaling issues here. I can drastically change my life- sell my car, not have kids, eat local vegetables, walk everywhere, etc, and basically my lifetime impact has less CO2 influence than American Airlines skipping one flight. It's an aggregate problem and counter to human nature to combat.

That is different from other environmental things like cleaning trash around your lake or planting trees or even NOx emissions reductions (which pollute my breathing air). I have different levels of feedback and personal life improvement from engaging in those activities. CO2 is a such a global problem that personal reduction has no relevance. The only selfish reasons to do so are:
1) to prove that it can be done so that others do so as well, either because they are compelled to or do so voluntarily and
2) So that I am prepared and comfortable for the transition off of CO2 should it become more ubiquitous.

I like the MMM method because it gets around this- while environmental impact is a primary driver for changing lifestyle, all of the advice on the blog is beneficial if you could care less. It is all lifestyle improvements regardless of the consumption and CO2 reduction.

[MasterStache]

And focusing on individual responsibility too much absolves corporate responsibility. Huge marketing and lobbying budgets influence to a significant degree how individuals act.

We can say that companies are just providing what people want, but they are also going to great lengths to tell us what to want and working hard against regulations that might make the products offered better at the possible expense of some of their profits in the short term.

Moralizing in either direction fails in part because of the tremendous path dependency in our current society. If different urban organization had prevailed, the car-dependent US culture wouldn't be as entrenched. If people valued relationships more compared to status symbols, certain toxic elements of car culture would be further reduced. If consumerism and status displays took a different form, large houses would be less common and demand less energy.

Dividing the world into corporations.and individuals misses the interplay between the two mediated by culture and human nature. But there is a simple solution that almost no one likes: carbon taxes.

I know this is off topic but this is a great post. We can take a look at the dynamics of say Nordic countries. In Denmark the average house size is roughly 1400 sqft. Sweden is even lower at 900 sqft. The average house size in the US is over 2100 sqft. Home ownership is just as prevalent in these countries as well. Then of course there is car culture/dependency. It would be wonderful and extremely beneficial to start witnessing a culture shift in America.

[chemistk]

And focusing on individual responsibility too much absolves corporate responsibility. Huge marketing and lobbying budgets influence to a significant degree how individuals act.

We can say that companies are just providing what people want, but they are also going to great lengths to tell us what to want and working hard against regulations that might make the products offered better at the possible expense of some of their profits in the short term.

Absolutely.  Echoing what another poster said, I think that everyone - individuals, corporations, politicians, government - has to own their piece.  By no means do I think that most companies will 'see the light' on their own, nor do I think that individual decisions will solve the crisis.  However, I do find it hollow and empty when I see people who claim to care about the crisis being completely unwilling to make any changes in their own life, and just remain in the top 5-10% of polluters on the planet while blaming someone else. 

Perhaps it's naive, but while no individual decision makes a difference, I believe that enough individual decisions by enough individuals can start to build a culture shift...which can ease the entrenched fight against the big, hard decisions that can start to make a real difference.

Amen to this whole dialog. I've had many liberal, environmentalist friends who remote start their clown cars for 10-15 minutes before driving to work in the winter. When questioned, they've replied that their own vehicle use is really insignificant. After all "big corporations" do the vast majority of the polluting anyways. Seems like taking the easy way out.

I would like to present a counter to this to perhaps give some more nuance. It may not be the "easy way out", it's just the nature of having such a spread out negative externality. Every lb of CO2 I reduce is spread across 7 billion people. That means statistically I have 0 overall impact. And warming up a car has a measurable impact on day-to-day activities. Which means I'm sacrificing something substantial for something with zero impact. There are other related scaling issues here. I can drastically change my life- sell my car, not have kids, eat local vegetables, walk everywhere, etc, and basically my lifetime impact has less CO2 influence than American Airlines skipping one flight. It's an aggregate problem and counter to human nature to combat.

That is different from other environmental things like cleaning trash around your lake or planting trees or even NOx emissions reductions (which pollute my breathing air). I have different levels of feedback and personal life improvement from engaging in those activities. CO2 is a such a global problem that personal reduction has no relevance. The only selfish reasons to do so are:
1) to prove that it can be done so that others do so as well, either because they are compelled to or do so voluntarily and
2) So that I am prepared and comfortable for the transition off of CO2 should it become more ubiquitous.

I like the MMM method because it gets around this- while environmental impact is a primary driver for changing lifestyle, all of the advice on the blog is beneficial if you could care less. It is all lifestyle improvements regardless of the consumption and CO2 reduction.

This topic is veering wildly off the original question, which is probably fine - I'll contribute by noting that your point #1 is much more important than you give it credit for.

You're absolutely correct that your individual contributions toward carbon emission reduction will have mostly a zero impact, but being a role-model for others is paramount to causing a shift in group-think away from the worst polluting activities.

Similar to voting, or even to Covid vaccines, an apathetic "well, i don't have any impact so why should I change my ways" is too easy of a mindset for any individual to adopt. We just about always seek the easy way out, for fear of change and especially inertia.

If your neighbor, friend, or relative - when faced with the opportunity to reduce their own contributions - looks around them, the activities of people they know or see is going to directly affect the outcome. If you see your environmentalist neighbor start their car every morning and let it idle, that's license to do the same for yourself. It entrenches the idea that individual action is worthless, and in aggregate that inaction leads to stagnation. But when a handful of influential (to a given individual) people start changing the way they do something in earnest, that's when the snowball starts.

So one's material contributions may be infinitesimally small, but psychologically significant - the only 'real' way to create a societal shift without coercion.

[GuitarStv]

And focusing on individual responsibility too much absolves corporate responsibility. Huge marketing and lobbying budgets influence to a significant degree how individuals act.

We can say that companies are just providing what people want, but they are also going to great lengths to tell us what to want and working hard against regulations that might make the products offered better at the possible expense of some of their profits in the short term.

Moralizing in either direction fails in part because of the tremendous path dependency in our current society. If different urban organization had prevailed, the car-dependent US culture wouldn't be as entrenched. If people valued relationships more compared to status symbols, certain toxic elements of car culture would be further reduced. If consumerism and status displays took a different form, large houses would be less common and demand less energy.

Dividing the world into corporations.and individuals misses the interplay between the two mediated by culture and human nature. But there is a simple solution that almost no one likes: carbon taxes.

I know this is off topic but this is a great post. We can take a look at the dynamics of say Nordic countries. In Denmark the average house size is roughly 1400 sqft. Sweden is even lower at 900 sqft. The average house size in the US is over 2100 sqft. Home ownership is just as prevalent in these countries as well. Then of course there is car culture/dependency. It would be wonderful and extremely beneficial to start witnessing a culture shift in America.

You won't start witnessing a culture shift unless we do things to change the causes of the current culture in North America.

The Nordic countries have robust social safety nets, a criminal justice system focused on reducing recidivism rather than punishment, and significant limitations and controls placed upon the actions of corporations.  Both of these reduce panic and fear.  Panic and fear tend to lead to individualist choices - the "we gotta grab everything we can right now because nobody else is going to help me!" mentality and allow for a collectivist "share and try to bring up the quality of life for everyone" approach.

Without an economic and political change in this direction, I strongly doubt you'll see the desired shift in culture.

[chemistk]

And focusing on individual responsibility too much absolves corporate responsibility. Huge marketing and lobbying budgets influence to a significant degree how individuals act.

We can say that companies are just providing what people want, but they are also going to great lengths to tell us what to want and working hard against regulations that might make the products offered better at the possible expense of some of their profits in the short term.

Moralizing in either direction fails in part because of the tremendous path dependency in our current society. If different urban organization had prevailed, the car-dependent US culture wouldn't be as entrenched. If people valued relationships more compared to status symbols, certain toxic elements of car culture would be further reduced. If consumerism and status displays took a different form, large houses would be less common and demand less energy.

Dividing the world into corporations.and individuals misses the interplay between the two mediated by culture and human nature. But there is a simple solution that almost no one likes: carbon taxes.

I know this is off topic but this is a great post. We can take a look at the dynamics of say Nordic countries. In Denmark the average house size is roughly 1400 sqft. Sweden is even lower at 900 sqft. The average house size in the US is over 2100 sqft. Home ownership is just as prevalent in these countries as well. Then of course there is car culture/dependency. It would be wonderful and extremely beneficial to start witnessing a culture shift in America.

You won't start witnessing a culture shift unless we do things to change the causes of the current culture in North America.

The Nordic countries have robust social safety nets, a criminal justice system focused on reducing recidivism rather than punishment, and significant limitations and controls placed upon the actions of corporations.  Both of these reduce panic and fear.  Panic and fear tend to lead to individualist choices - the "we gotta grab everything we can right now because nobody else is going to help me!" mentality and allow for a collectivist "share and try to bring up the quality of life for everyone" approach.

Without an economic and political change in this direction, I strongly doubt you'll see You Won't see the desired shift in culture.

FTFY

Also add to this - the 'corporations are people' nonsense and the laughable penalty structure that incentivizes Western Capitalism to pursue profits at the detriment of, well, everything that can't be sold.

[habanero]

The Nordic countries have robust social safety nets, a criminal justice system focused on reducing recidivism rather than punishment, and significant limitations and controls placed upon the actions of corporations.  Both of these reduce panic and fear.  Panic and fear tend to lead to individualist choices - the "we gotta grab everything we can right now because nobody else is going to help me!" mentality and allow for a collectivist "share and try to bring up the quality of life for everyone" approach.

Without an economic and political change in this direction, I strongly doubt you'll see the desired shift in culture.

One of my favourite fun facts is that Sweden, per capita, has (or at least had couple of years ago) more dollar billionaires than the US.

As a resident of a Nordic, or rather non-US country during this pandemic it's been quite fascinating to read about what's been going on in the US. I kind of knew it was, in some areas, a very different place than where I live, but what has happened during the pandemic has been completely off the charts for me personally. While I have had my (limited) share of disagreement with our public response to it it's not like it's the hill I would be - literality  - willing to die on to make a point.

[StashingAway]

As a resident of a Nordic, or rather non-US country during this pandemic it's been quite fascinating to read about what's been going on in the US. I kind of knew it was, in some areas, a very different place than where I live, but what has happened during the pandemic has been completely off the charts for me personally. While I have had my (limited) share of disagreement with our public response to it it's not like it's the hill I would be - literality  - willing to die on to make a point.

I'd be cautious about attributing what you read about the U.S. to the median expectation of lifestyle here. My live has been relatively undramatic the last couple of years. Much less so than my buddy living in Germany. We just happen to have an extremely rambunctious media and a large population (thus more outliers to report on).

I've yet to see one public outrcy on masks in person. I was in the hospital a short while ago for a non-covid emergency and there were spare beds, although still quite a heavy case load of COVID keeping them busy. I'm not overly cautious but I follow all the rules and respect people's boundaries. There are just tens of thousands of school districts and hospitals and whatnot for a few crazies (and russian influencers) to amplify.

[rockstache]

As a resident of a Nordic, or rather non-US country during this pandemic it's been quite fascinating to read about what's been going on in the US. I kind of knew it was, in some areas, a very different place than where I live, but what has happened during the pandemic has been completely off the charts for me personally. While I have had my (limited) share of disagreement with our public response to it it's not like it's the hill I would be - literality  - willing to die on to make a point.

I'd be cautious about attributing what you read about the U.S. to the median expectation of lifestyle here. My live has been relatively undramatic the last couple of years. Much less so than my buddy living in Germany. We just happen to have an extremely rambunctious media and a large population (thus more outliers to report on).

I've yet to see one public outrcy on masks in person. I was in the hospital a short while ago for a non-covid emergency and there were spare beds, although still quite a heavy case load of COVID keeping them busy. I'm not overly cautious but I follow all the rules and respect people's boundaries. There are just tens of thousands of school districts and hospitals and whatnot for a few crazies (and russian influencers) to amplify.

And conversely, I've seen quite a bit of firsthand drama/mask protesting and refusal, and our children's ICUs are full. It all depends on where you are. It is indeed very very different than a Nordic country.

[Dollar Slice]

Some news for those who are waiting for boosters as well as waiting for their kids; the FDA has scheduled meetings in October to discuss Moderna and J&J boosters as well as giving Pfizer to kids age 5-11. After FDA approval there are a couple more steps - CDC committee and CDC director and then some states have to rubber stamp it, so add a few extra days to these dates (assuming everything is approved). From the NYT:

"The advisory committee will meet on Oct. 14 and 15 to to discuss booster doses, and is tentatively scheduled to discuss Pfizer’s pediatric dose on Oct. 26, the agency said. The F.D.A. typically issues its decisions within a few days of advisory committee meetings."

[Ladychips]

My brother hired a young man to do a few days work.  When he picked the young man up, he asked him if he was vaccinated.  The kid said no but he'd been thinking about it.  My brother said "let's take care of that right now." and promptly drove him to a vaccination location.  I told my brother he had just single handedly saved countless lives.  Yea!!

[Prairie Gal]

My brother hired a young man to do a few days work.  When he picked the young man up, he asked him if he was vaccinated.  The kid said no but he'd been thinking about it.  My brother said "let's take care of that right now." and promptly drove him to a vaccination location.  I told my brother he had just single handedly saved countless lives.  Yea!!

That's awesome! I love that.

A Facebook group I belong to that is for supporting others in the pandemic had a recent post from a lady that offered to drive people to their vaccination appointment, and even buy them a coffee. At least one person took her up on it, which I thought was great. I am too chicken to have an unvaccinated person in the car with me.

This thread gives me whiplash with the off-topic emissions conversation that is going on. Could that be made a separate thread, by any chance?

[frugalnacho]

As a resident of a Nordic, or rather non-US country during this pandemic it's been quite fascinating to read about what's been going on in the US. I kind of knew it was, in some areas, a very different place than where I live, but what has happened during the pandemic has been completely off the charts for me personally. While I have had my (limited) share of disagreement with our public response to it it's not like it's the hill I would be - literality  - willing to die on to make a point.

I'd be cautious about attributing what you read about the U.S. to the median expectation of lifestyle here. My live has been relatively undramatic the last couple of years. Much less so than my buddy living in Germany. We just happen to have an extremely rambunctious media and a large population (thus more outliers to report on).

I've yet to see one public outrcy on masks in person. I was in the hospital a short while ago for a non-covid emergency and there were spare beds, although still quite a heavy case load of COVID keeping them busy. I'm not overly cautious but I follow all the rules and respect people's boundaries. There are just tens of thousands of school districts and hospitals and whatnot for a few crazies (and russian influencers) to amplify.

I think you may be the outlier.  I know tons of mask holes.

[RetiredAt63]

As a resident of a Nordic, or rather non-US country during this pandemic it's been quite fascinating to read about what's been going on in the US. I kind of knew it was, in some areas, a very different place than where I live, but what has happened during the pandemic has been completely off the charts for me personally. While I have had my (limited) share of disagreement with our public response to it it's not like it's the hill I would be - literality  - willing to die on to make a point.

I'd be cautious about attributing what you read about the U.S. to the median expectation of lifestyle here. My live has been relatively undramatic the last couple of years. Much less so than my buddy living in Germany. We just happen to have an extremely rambunctious media and a large population (thus more outliers to report on).

I've yet to see one public outrcy on masks in person. I was in the hospital a short while ago for a non-covid emergency and there were spare beds, although still quite a heavy case load of COVID keeping them busy. I'm not overly cautious but I follow all the rules and respect people's boundaries. There are just tens of thousands of school districts and hospitals and whatnot for a few crazies (and russian influencers) to amplify.

Here most people are pretty good.  A few seem to not get the indoors masking yet, after all this time.

I think you may be the outlier.  I know tons of mask holes.

[Radagast]

DW got her third shot yesterday. She is caring for 6 Covid patients every day at work, so it made a lot of sense.

[Prairie Gal]

As a resident of a Nordic, or rather non-US country during this pandemic it's been quite fascinating to read about what's been going on in the US. I kind of knew it was, in some areas, a very different place than where I live, but what has happened during the pandemic has been completely off the charts for me personally. While I have had my (limited) share of disagreement with our public response to it it's not like it's the hill I would be - literality  - willing to die on to make a point.

I'd be cautious about attributing what you read about the U.S. to the median expectation of lifestyle here. My live has been relatively undramatic the last couple of years. Much less so than my buddy living in Germany. We just happen to have an extremely rambunctious media and a large population (thus more outliers to report on).

I've yet to see one public outrcy on masks in person. I was in the hospital a short while ago for a non-covid emergency and there were spare beds, although still quite a heavy case load of COVID keeping them busy. I'm not overly cautious but I follow all the rules and respect people's boundaries. There are just tens of thousands of school districts and hospitals and whatnot for a few crazies (and russian influencers) to amplify.

Here most people are pretty good.  A few seem to not get the indoors masking yet, after all this time.

I think you may be the outlier.  I know tons of mask holes.

We have quite a few maskholes at my office, and management has thrown up their hands and refused to do anything about it. Boss said he is just done with it. It was one of the straws that broke the camel's back, and convinced me to give my notice almost two weeks ago.

[JoePublic3.14]

The husband of a co-worker died this afternoon.  He was 33 years-old, unvaccinated, no pre-existing conditions, and leaves behind two kids under the age of 8.  What a damn waste.

Seems like the wrong way to state it to me. 33 year old man who was perfect for the vaccine, but did not get vaccinated, died today. Couple young kids left behind, they must be proud of daddy sticking to his ignorance.

As another poster wondered about his friends, I also wonder if some of these idiots have at least a small brainwave and use these stories as a lesson. Get the shot. You can sneak out and do it. Keep claiming no way. Who cares, just get the shot(s).

[Taran Wanderer]

From an MD friend:

46 yo nurse from my hospital died of Covid last night. She was a super anti vaxxer. It’s like a suicide.

[sui generis]

From an MD friend:

46 yo nurse from my hospital died of Covid last night. She was a super anti vaxxer. It’s like a suicide.

I just don't understand nurses that are anti-vaxx. How does that come to pass? I understand there are even a few doctors that are... There are crazy exceptions and outliers everywhere... But it seems like there are a lot of nurses that are. Way too many and perhaps indicating something that is missing in nursing education?

[MudPuppy]

I think, that while there are way too many who genuinely are anti-vaxx, the stories seem more common just because the profession is so common. Something like 1 on every 100 people is a registered/professional nurse. This does not include the number of LPN/LVN nurses.

[dandarc]

From an MD friend:

46 yo nurse from my hospital died of Covid last night. She was a super anti vaxxer. It’s like a suicide.

Doing the life insurance claim rep's job for them.

[SwordGuy]

I just don't understand nurses that are anti-vaxx. How does that come to pass?

It's because they love the alt-right conspiracy theories and opinion leaders and the hatred/bigotry they espouse more than they respect reason and facts...

[Missy B]

My dear friend who doesn't trust the vaccine got her first one this week. She wasn't 100% on board but got it anyway.
I'm was worried for her, and glad she's got it. I hope she feels better about the choice when the time for the second one comes around.

[Jack0Life]

Dumb anti-vaxxers need to look up Portugal as an example.
That country was in disarrayed in Jan until someone took over and convinced everyone to get the vaccine.
Now 84% of the population are vaccinated and pretty much all adults. Their cases are as low as it's ever been which is great considering the Delta variance is floating around.

[Dee18]

We also need to recognize that Portugal has mandatory masking rules.  Vermont has the highest vaccination rates in the U.S. but numbers of infections are soaring because there is no mandatory masking. 

[sui generis]

The point about # of cases (vs. maybe # of hospitalizations or deaths) is a good one and one which I have a lot of mixed thoughts/feelings about personally.  Is it only (really) important to drive cases down in an environment of mediocre vaxx rates?  I mean, of course, it would be nice for there to be no cases ever, but what are we really trying to do here? 

I don't even know the answer to that question for myself.  Part of me keeps telling myself I need to get used to the idea that someday (maybe next week, maybe not for a year or two) I'm going to get COVID.  Whatever the outcome is, it's just a very likely thing to *contract it* at some point.  Then another part of me wonders how much I should resign myself to that idea.  How far should I personally go to not get COVID?  Obviously it is a personal calculation that will change over time (regardless of the situation in the world or my community, I'm increasingly likely as time goes on, to go to more indoor or outdoor, crowded events where there are more unvaccinated people) but I don't even know how to decide how much to sacrifice in terms of QOL to decrease the likelihood by a bit more that I won't get it. 

It seems hard to make these judgments in advance, to try to establish some sort of long-term paradigm for myself.  But it also seems like a bad idea to wait until situations present themselves to me, as I'll then be swinging back and forth between approaches nonsensically depending on the day, time of day, how well I slept the night before, etc. when I have to make the given decision.

I'm really interested in how vaccinated folks are approaching this mentally.  For now, for me, it's easy not to worry.  Where I live there are mask mandates indoors still, many places requiring proof of vaccines, including an indoor dance performance I'm going to soon.  I don't feel like I personally need to make any judgment calls about what I'm comfortable with.  But thinking about traveling more and when regulations are relaxed, I'm really not sure how I'll approach some of these decisions.

[StashingAway]

I'm really interested in how vaccinated folks are approaching this mentally.  For now, for me, it's easy not to worry.  Where I live there are mask mandates indoors still, many places requiring proof of vaccines, including an indoor dance performance I'm going to soon.  I don't feel like I personally need to make any judgment calls about what I'm comfortable with.  But thinking about traveling more and when regulations are relaxed, I'm really not sure how I'll approach some of these decisions.

I don't have much in the way of additions to your thoughts other than to note that I too have tried to reason my way through it on occasion. At some point, the mental fatigue seems to be worse than covid itself. I was laughing at the people who couldn't wear a mask for a couple of months. And I can wear one for years if need be. But the constant evaluating of personal risk starts to lo

I have a weird anecdote (as I was JUST talking about how I hadn't really come across any interactions): I was in a grocery store the other day. We have mask mandates. There was a person sampling wine to customers. He had his mask slipped down while he was talking to me. A very stern lady came by and told him in no uncertain terms that he was risking the kids and cited the state mandate for masks. I agree with her; he should have had his mask on.

With that said; it occurred to me how silly it was the he was handing back AND forth sampler cups of wine to me and this lady didn't seem the least bit concerned about the obvious disease transmission potential taking place from the handling, but was more worried about his lack of face covering in a large, well conditioned vaulted grocery store (very low chance of airborne transmission in this environment). To me it just seemed like it highlighted the disconnect. Both people weren't making sense to me. I can't help but think I'm the rational one, but statistically that's absurd so what is going on?

[Shane]

Seems like the longer those of us who have the privilege of doing so can put off getting covid the better, but everyone's going to have different tolerance levels for risk, depending on personal circumstances. Personally, since my family and I all got vaccinated a few months ago, we've started going out to eat again sometimes, both indoors and out. Thinking about rejoining our local YMCA this fall, so we can return to the gym in the colder months. OTOH, we have turned down some invitations to attend indoor events hosted by friends who we know are not vaccinated and are purposefully not taking any precautions against covid. Since getting vaccinated, we have met with unvaccinated friends but only outside.

[Dollar Slice]

I'm really interested in how vaccinated folks are approaching this mentally.  For now, for me, it's easy not to worry.  Where I live there are mask mandates indoors still, many places requiring proof of vaccines, including an indoor dance performance I'm going to soon.  I don't feel like I personally need to make any judgment calls about what I'm comfortable with.  But thinking about traveling more and when regulations are relaxed, I'm really not sure how I'll approach some of these decisions.

There are still a lot of unanswered questions that would inform my own personal strategy. As someone who has an immune deficiency, with the current situation I'd love to not get it ever. Who knows if that's possible? Only the future will tell if it turns out to be more like a cold or flu where many of us get it annually, or if vaccinations can keep it pretty well tamped down and rare. Will we figure out how to prevent or cure long COVID? Will we come up with better treatments (antivirals, MABs, etc.)? Will it keep evolving into new, more contagious variants, or is Delta pretty much the evolutionary endgame for this particular virus? I don't know. I'm willing to keep being pretty careful for a while longer to find out some more answers.

[former player]

I'm fully vaxxed.  It's been pretty easy for me to be careful for the last 18 months without changing much (supermarket deliveries rather than shopping in person, and cutting out indoor socialising was about all I've needed to do) but in the last week I've spread my wings a bit, having two people round for lunch, going into town today for the first time in a year or so to run some errands, going to an indoor event with about a dozen people tomorrow.  I am masking up and ventilating rooms, and although most people in town today were not wearing masks I didn't feel out of place for wearing one.

I'd very much like not to ever get covid, but it looks as though it's here to stay for the foreseeable future so I'm not sure how realistic that is.  I have tickets for a big concert next summer, postponed from 2020, and I'll see how I feel about it then.  Not going to see the new James Bond in the cinema, that's for sure.