Author Topic: Covid vaccine rollout in the US - who do you know that is getting the vaccine?  (Read 229180 times)

MudPuppy

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Some places have a mature minor loophole, but then again some places also fire their health officials for mentioning it.

OtherJen

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Some places have a mature minor loophole, but then again some places also fire their health officials for mentioning it.

According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, 41 states require parental consent for vaccination of a minor (defined as under 18 years of age). Most teenagers in the US cannot choose to be vaccinated or not, regardless of their own preference.

frugalnacho

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My understanding is that in the US, "everyone" who wanted a vaccine could easily have gotten one by now - is that assumption correct or are there any places of meaningful size where supply/distribution has been a meaningful problem?

Yes that's correct.  Anyone above age 12 can get it.  There is tons of supply all over the usa.  You've been able to walk into almost any place that administers the vaccine for months without any appointment.  There are dozens of places within walking distance of my house.  At this point anyone in the usa above age 11 that doesn't have the vaccine is by their own choice.

I think parents can still block their minor kids from receiving the vaccine.

Yes 41 states require parental consent to vaccinate a minor.  I should have worded it differently, but my point was it's entirely by choice (your own, or your parent's in the case you are a minor) that you're unvaccinated, and not anything to do with supply or logistics. 

jinga nation

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MudPuppy

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Some places have a mature minor loophole, but then again some places also fire their health officials for mentioning it.

According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, 41 states require parental consent for vaccination of a minor (defined as under 18 years of age). Most teenagers in the US cannot choose to be vaccinated or not, regardless of their own preference.

As I said, some places. Specifically, I was referencing this recent firing.

former player

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My understanding is that in the US, "everyone" who wanted a vaccine could easily have gotten one by now - is that assumption correct or are there any places of meaningful size where supply/distribution has been a meaningful problem?

Yes that's correct.  Anyone above age 12 can get it.  There is tons of supply all over the usa.  You've been able to walk into almost any place that administers the vaccine for months without any appointment.  There are dozens of places within walking distance of my house.  At this point anyone in the usa above age 11 that doesn't have the vaccine is by their own choice.

Statement from Dr Kates, vice-president of the Kaiser Family Foundation: "Despite supply not being an issue, there are still people who face barriers to getting vaccinated - not sure they can get time off work, lack of transportation, and the worry that they might have to pay."

The main reasons for Americans not getting the vaccine are vaccine resistance, but they are not the only ones.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/57889961


habanero

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We had one case in the news where the CIO of a largish company said employees didn't get paid time off to go to vaccination (or testing). I could barely believe what I read, and the douche even defended his position when confronted with it by uttering some bizzarre mumbo-jumbo. Since, if you get sick (not covid-specific) here, the employer covers up to the first two weeks at full pay so its pretty hard to see even the commercial logic behind it even if the common-sense aspect of it should be a no-brainer. And the cost if some worker gets infected, doesn't know about it and spreads it around at the worklplace should also be orders of magnitude bigger when workers are sent home to isolate for quite some time.

OtherJen

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My understanding is that in the US, "everyone" who wanted a vaccine could easily have gotten one by now - is that assumption correct or are there any places of meaningful size where supply/distribution has been a meaningful problem?

Yes that's correct.  Anyone above age 12 can get it.  There is tons of supply all over the usa.  You've been able to walk into almost any place that administers the vaccine for months without any appointment.  There are dozens of places within walking distance of my house.  At this point anyone in the usa above age 11 that doesn't have the vaccine is by their own choice.

Statement from Dr Kates, vice-president of the Kaiser Family Foundation: "Despite supply not being an issue, there are still people who face barriers to getting vaccinated - not sure they can get time off work, lack of transportation, and the worry that they might have to pay."

The main reasons for Americans not getting the vaccine are vaccine resistance, but they are not the only ones.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/57889961

Lack of transportation could be a significant issue in rural areas. Inability to take time off of work or to schedule a day off (for those on variable schedules who may be called in at the last minute and don’t have sick leave) is a bigger overall issue.

Sugaree

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Well, here's one population who isn't getting the vaccine. Young people in Alabama.
https://www.al.com/news/2021/07/im-sorry-but-its-too-late-alabama-doctor-on-treating-unvaccinated-dying-covid-patients.html


I think it's Alabama in general.  I'm not far from where this doctor practices.  In January, when my employer pulled some strings and managed to procure doses for our organization only about 1/3 of employees took them up on it.  This, despite the fact that a member of upper management had just died from Covid complications.  Even now, I think the state-wide vaccination rate may only be 33%.  I'm a little concerned about my kid going back to school in the fall because third graders are walking petri dishes even under the best of circumstances.

ChickenStash

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I have some doubts about the folks saying they need time off work to get a shot, particularly now. It seems like a convenient excuse that is likely to not be judged harshly for someone that just doesn't want to be vaccinated.

I checked around here to find Walgreens, CVS, and many of the larger grocery store pharmacies have walk-in or appointments for the vaccine from 9a-9p M-F (varies a bit) and 9a-6p on weekends so there is plenty of time available if someone wants it. The sites I checked had 30+ appointments available so they aren't too busy.

former player

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I have some doubts about the folks saying they need time off work to get a shot, particularly now. It seems like a convenient excuse that is likely to not be judged harshly for someone that just doesn't want to be vaccinated.

I checked around here to find Walgreens, CVS, and many of the larger grocery store pharmacies have walk-in or appointments for the vaccine from 9a-9p M-F (varies a bit) and 9a-6p on weekends so there is plenty of time available if someone wants it. The sites I checked had 30+ appointments available so they aren't too busy.
Congratulations on being in the 85% of the USA population that has internet access.  Please don't assume that everyone has it so easy.

ChickenStash

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I have some doubts about the folks saying they need time off work to get a shot, particularly now. It seems like a convenient excuse that is likely to not be judged harshly for someone that just doesn't want to be vaccinated.

I checked around here to find Walgreens, CVS, and many of the larger grocery store pharmacies have walk-in or appointments for the vaccine from 9a-9p M-F (varies a bit) and 9a-6p on weekends so there is plenty of time available if someone wants it. The sites I checked had 30+ appointments available so they aren't too busy.
Congratulations on being in the 85% of the USA population that has internet access.  Please don't assume that everyone has it so easy.

Since when is internet access requires to walk in to a pharmacy?

former player

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I have some doubts about the folks saying they need time off work to get a shot, particularly now. It seems like a convenient excuse that is likely to not be judged harshly for someone that just doesn't want to be vaccinated.

I checked around here to find Walgreens, CVS, and many of the larger grocery store pharmacies have walk-in or appointments for the vaccine from 9a-9p M-F (varies a bit) and 9a-6p on weekends so there is plenty of time available if someone wants it. The sites I checked had 30+ appointments available so they aren't too busy.
Congratulations on being in the 85% of the USA population that has internet access.  Please don't assume that everyone has it so easy.

Since when is internet access requires to walk in to a pharmacy?
First find your nearest pharmacy, then find its opening hours, then find its vaccination hours.  Then reassure yourself that the vaccine is free.  All without access to the internet.  Then get time off from your two minimum wage jobs and maybe watching the children in between to travel however far it is to the pharmacy (try googling "health care desert" or "pharmacy desert"), which is probably not on a public transport route and possibly you don't have a car.
?
Edited to add: do you really have no concept of poverty?  Or social exclusion?  Of limited education and less money?  What world do you live in that you can't see these issues?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 01:19:54 PM by former player »

ixtap

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I have some doubts about the folks saying they need time off work to get a shot, particularly now. It seems like a convenient excuse that is likely to not be judged harshly for someone that just doesn't want to be vaccinated.

I checked around here to find Walgreens, CVS, and many of the larger grocery store pharmacies have walk-in or appointments for the vaccine from 9a-9p M-F (varies a bit) and 9a-6p on weekends so there is plenty of time available if someone wants it. The sites I checked had 30+ appointments available so they aren't too busy.
Congratulations on being in the 85% of the USA population that has internet access.  Please don't assume that everyone has it so easy.

Since when is internet access requires to walk in to a pharmacy?

How did you check so many sources?

ChickenStash

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I have some doubts about the folks saying they need time off work to get a shot, particularly now. It seems like a convenient excuse that is likely to not be judged harshly for someone that just doesn't want to be vaccinated.

I checked around here to find Walgreens, CVS, and many of the larger grocery store pharmacies have walk-in or appointments for the vaccine from 9a-9p M-F (varies a bit) and 9a-6p on weekends so there is plenty of time available if someone wants it. The sites I checked had 30+ appointments available so they aren't too busy.
Congratulations on being in the 85% of the USA population that has internet access.  Please don't assume that everyone has it so easy.

Since when is internet access requires to walk in to a pharmacy?
First find your nearest pharmacy, then find its opening hours, then find its vaccination hours.  Then reassure yourself that the vaccine is free.  All without access to the internet.  Then get time off from your two minimum wage jobs and maybe watching the children in between to travel however far it is to the pharmacy (try googling "health care desert"), which is probably not on a public transport route and possibly you don't have a car.

So, I should pick up a phone book or newspaper and make a call from my land line? Oh My Heavens, how did the world survive before the internet?!?



frugalnacho

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Most locations also have signs posted that covid vaccines are available for walk ins. 

former player

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I have some doubts about the folks saying they need time off work to get a shot, particularly now. It seems like a convenient excuse that is likely to not be judged harshly for someone that just doesn't want to be vaccinated.

I checked around here to find Walgreens, CVS, and many of the larger grocery store pharmacies have walk-in or appointments for the vaccine from 9a-9p M-F (varies a bit) and 9a-6p on weekends so there is plenty of time available if someone wants it. The sites I checked had 30+ appointments available so they aren't too busy.
Congratulations on being in the 85% of the USA population that has internet access.  Please don't assume that everyone has it so easy.

Since when is internet access requires to walk in to a pharmacy?
First find your nearest pharmacy, then find its opening hours, then find its vaccination hours.  Then reassure yourself that the vaccine is free.  All without access to the internet.  Then get time off from your two minimum wage jobs and maybe watching the children in between to travel however far it is to the pharmacy (try googling "health care desert"), which is probably not on a public transport route and possibly you don't have a car.

So, I should pick up a phone book or newspaper and make a call from my land line? Oh My Heavens, how did the world survive before the internet?!?
Is that your best effort?  Really?  How many areas still have a local newspaper?  When was the last time you saw a paper phone book?  And what good do they do to the alarmingly high percentage of Americans (almost unbelievably, it's 20%) who are functionally illiterate?

The more you protest the more you expose your ignorance of other people's difficulties.

ChickenStash

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I have some doubts about the folks saying they need time off work to get a shot, particularly now. It seems like a convenient excuse that is likely to not be judged harshly for someone that just doesn't want to be vaccinated.

I checked around here to find Walgreens, CVS, and many of the larger grocery store pharmacies have walk-in or appointments for the vaccine from 9a-9p M-F (varies a bit) and 9a-6p on weekends so there is plenty of time available if someone wants it. The sites I checked had 30+ appointments available so they aren't too busy.
Congratulations on being in the 85% of the USA population that has internet access.  Please don't assume that everyone has it so easy.

Since when is internet access requires to walk in to a pharmacy?
First find your nearest pharmacy, then find its opening hours, then find its vaccination hours.  Then reassure yourself that the vaccine is free.  All without access to the internet.  Then get time off from your two minimum wage jobs and maybe watching the children in between to travel however far it is to the pharmacy (try googling "health care desert"), which is probably not on a public transport route and possibly you don't have a car.

So, I should pick up a phone book or newspaper and make a call from my land line? Oh My Heavens, how did the world survive before the internet?!?
Is that your best effort?  Really?  How many areas still have a local newspaper?  When was the last time you saw a paper phone book?  And what good do they do to the alarmingly high percentage of Americans (almost unbelievably, it's 20%) who are functionally illiterate?

The more you protest the more you expose your ignorance of other people's difficulties.

I am fully aware that people can have various difficulties to do do various things. That's life. So far nothing you have listed is insurmountable for someone determined to get the vaccine.

sui generis

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Most locations also have signs posted that covid vaccines are available for walk ins.

Yeah, I'm very sympathetic and like to think I'm aware of the challenges people face that don't have internet and somewhere on each block that they could get a shot any time like I do.  That said, I was just in Alaska and traveled to several rural places, including one town of approximately 20 year-round residents (maybe up to 70-80 in summer?) and even they had a place where they were bringing in COVID vaccines and the signs were prominently posted.  This town was a 6 hour drive from Anchorage and nearly 2 hours from the next town with any amenities and a population over 100 people.  And it's Alaska, not some liberal elite state.  So I do understand it's not quite as easy for some as others, but I also don't think it's as hard as some things can be.  The effort to make this accessible is showing and, I hope, paying off.

former player

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I have some doubts about the folks saying they need time off work to get a shot, particularly now. It seems like a convenient excuse that is likely to not be judged harshly for someone that just doesn't want to be vaccinated.

I checked around here to find Walgreens, CVS, and many of the larger grocery store pharmacies have walk-in or appointments for the vaccine from 9a-9p M-F (varies a bit) and 9a-6p on weekends so there is plenty of time available if someone wants it. The sites I checked had 30+ appointments available so they aren't too busy.
Congratulations on being in the 85% of the USA population that has internet access.  Please don't assume that everyone has it so easy.

Since when is internet access requires to walk in to a pharmacy?
First find your nearest pharmacy, then find its opening hours, then find its vaccination hours.  Then reassure yourself that the vaccine is free.  All without access to the internet.  Then get time off from your two minimum wage jobs and maybe watching the children in between to travel however far it is to the pharmacy (try googling "health care desert"), which is probably not on a public transport route and possibly you don't have a car.

So, I should pick up a phone book or newspaper and make a call from my land line? Oh My Heavens, how did the world survive before the internet?!?
Is that your best effort?  Really?  How many areas still have a local newspaper?  When was the last time you saw a paper phone book?  And what good do they do to the alarmingly high percentage of Americans (almost unbelievably, it's 20%) who are functionally illiterate?

The more you protest the more you expose your ignorance of other people's difficulties.
rum
I am fully aware that people can have various difficulties to do do various things. That's life. So far nothing you have listed is insurmountable for someone determined to get the vaccine.
Right.  And then Fox news and Facebook and Trump have all been saying don't get the vaccine, so exactly why would someone in that situation be determined to get the vaccine?

ChickenStash

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I have some doubts about the folks saying they need time off work to get a shot, particularly now. It seems like a convenient excuse that is likely to not be judged harshly for someone that just doesn't want to be vaccinated.

I checked around here to find Walgreens, CVS, and many of the larger grocery store pharmacies have walk-in or appointments for the vaccine from 9a-9p M-F (varies a bit) and 9a-6p on weekends so there is plenty of time available if someone wants it. The sites I checked had 30+ appointments available so they aren't too busy.
Congratulations on being in the 85% of the USA population that has internet access.  Please don't assume that everyone has it so easy.

Since when is internet access requires to walk in to a pharmacy?
First find your nearest pharmacy, then find its opening hours, then find its vaccination hours.  Then reassure yourself that the vaccine is free.  All without access to the internet.  Then get time off from your two minimum wage jobs and maybe watching the children in between to travel however far it is to the pharmacy (try googling "health care desert"), which is probably not on a public transport route and possibly you don't have a car.

So, I should pick up a phone book or newspaper and make a call from my land line? Oh My Heavens, how did the world survive before the internet?!?
Is that your best effort?  Really?  How many areas still have a local newspaper?  When was the last time you saw a paper phone book?  And what good do they do to the alarmingly high percentage of Americans (almost unbelievably, it's 20%) who are functionally illiterate?

The more you protest the more you expose your ignorance of other people's difficulties.
rum
I am fully aware that people can have various difficulties to do do various things. That's life. So far nothing you have listed is insurmountable for someone determined to get the vaccine.
Right.  And then Fox news and Facebook and Trump have all been saying don't get the vaccine, so exactly why would someone in that situation be determined to get the vaccine?

Ah, so now it's Fox News and Trump's fault? I thought all these people didn't have internet, cable TV, phones, newspapers, or the ability to travel. Hmm...


MudPuppy

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Are you being obtuse on purpose or are you really just this haughty?

former player

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I have some doubts about the folks saying they need time off work to get a shot, particularly now. It seems like a convenient excuse that is likely to not be judged harshly for someone that just doesn't want to be vaccinated.

I checked around here to find Walgreens, CVS, and many of the larger grocery store pharmacies have walk-in or appointments for the vaccine from 9a-9p M-F (varies a bit) and 9a-6p on weekends so there is plenty of time available if someone wants it. The sites I checked had 30+ appointments available so they aren't too busy.
Congratulations on being in the 85% of the USA population that has internet access.  Please don't assume that everyone has it so easy.

Since when is internet access requires to walk in to a pharmacy?
First find your nearest pharmacy, then find its opening hours, then find its vaccination hours.  Then reassure yourself that the vaccine is free.  All without access to the internet.  Then get time off from your two minimum wage jobs and maybe watching the children in between to travel however far it is to the pharmacy (try googling "health care desert"), which is probably not on a public transport route and possibly you don't have a car.

So, I should pick up a phone book or newspaper and make a call from my land line? Oh My Heavens, how did the world survive before the internet?!?
Is that your best effort?  Really?  How many areas still have a local newspaper?  When was the last time you saw a paper phone book?  And what good do they do to the alarmingly high percentage of Americans (almost unbelievably, it's 20%) who are functionally illiterate?

The more you protest the more you expose your ignorance of other people's difficulties.
rum
I am fully aware that people can have various difficulties to do do various things. That's life. So far nothing you have listed is insurmountable for someone determined to get the vaccine.
Right.  And then Fox news and Facebook and Trump have all been saying don't get the vaccine, so exactly why would someone in that situation be determined to get the vaccine?

Ah, so now it's Fox News and Trump's fault? I thought all these people didn't have internet, cable TV, phones, newspapers, or the ability to travel. Hmm...
Did I say that?  I said not internet, not cable TV.  So OK, no Facebook but still Fox and Trump spewing poison about covid for the last year.

frugalnacho

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Most locations also have signs posted that covid vaccines are available for walk ins.

Yeah, I'm very sympathetic and like to think I'm aware of the challenges people face that don't have internet and somewhere on each block that they could get a shot any time like I do.  That said, I was just in Alaska and traveled to several rural places, including one town of approximately 20 year-round residents (maybe up to 70-80 in summer?) and even they had a place where they were bringing in COVID vaccines and the signs were prominently posted.  This town was a 6 hour drive from Anchorage and nearly 2 hours from the next town with any amenities and a population over 100 people.  And it's Alaska, not some liberal elite state.  So I do understand it's not quite as easy for some as others, but I also don't think it's as hard as some things can be.  The effort to make this accessible is showing and, I hope, paying off.

I definitely don't know every person in the country, so I'm sure there are a lot of people that legitimately can't get the vaccine because they don't have internet access, or transportation, or television, and are also illiterate and unable to read the vaccine signs on all the stores they pass on their way to one of their many jobs.  I don't personally know anyone like that, but I know of hundreds of people that are douchebags and refuse to get the vaccine and come up with flimsy excuses as to why they can't.  "I just haven't been able to schedule it and get it done", fuck off you're a god damn nurse and your employer administers them onsite and has been doing so for 7 months now, you're just a brainwashed asshole.

jeroly

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As to the silly argument about whether access to the internet is a factor in any way...
Anybody can just walk into a pharmacy (I assume they know what a pharmacy is and where at least one is) and ask if they offer the vaccine, and if they don't, where it can be obtained.  They can also get their questions answered in person regarding costs (none to the patient), second doses, etc.  That way they don't even need to go to their local library branch, where internet is available for free.  No cellphone needed either.

There are people, though, who are not able to get vaccinated for health reasons (e.g. immunocompromised individuals may not be able to get vaccines on the advice of their primary care providers), and there are millions of children under 12 who are not eligible for vaccination.  I care about the folks in both those groups, not the lazy morons who will use any excuse (from no internet to no time) to not get the shot(s).


Missy B

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I agree that people choosing not to get vaccinated should be on their own but I do still struggle with my daughter. She's 11 months old, and I know they say kids are at lower risk of complications but my pediatrician told me the under one years old category is still a bit of a risk. I suppose we're almost out of the woods in regards to that since her first birthday is right around the corner but it's still tough for me as her Mom. She's not old enough to wear a mask, so while case counts in my area remain low we've taken her a few places and opened up to more playdates with other neighbors. However, if case counts go back up I may decide to be more cautious with her again. The challenge there is many states and local health departments (including mine) aren't reporting cases on a daily basis anymore. I understand that we need to reopen for the majority. I just wish the information would continue to be provided so those of us in a different situations could make the right decision for our younger, unvaccinated children.
It is probably the MMR vaccine that creates the change in immunity at 1 yr old - babies can get very sick, and then around 1 yr, it changes. This is when the MMR vaccine is normally given, and research shows a cross-immunity with COVID, that lasts (fading slowly) several years, giving protection to children up to 12/13, so they don't get as sick.
So it isn't that they 'age out' of vulnerability, it's the MMR vaccine. Apparently regular vaccinations are down by 30%, not a good trend.

There are many articles if you google MMR covid protection. Gates Foundation is doing a big study on it right now.
I got an MMR booster in Jan when I first saw the research.

Wow this is really interesting. Thanks for sharing I'll have to do a bit more research myself but makes me feel a bit better as my daughter just got her MMR vaccine yesterday :)
Glad to hear! We are so, so lucky that the MMR has cross-immunity for covid.

Missy B

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With trepidation I weigh in to point out that at least some vaccine 'tardiness' or hesitancy in some communities here in my Cdn city is driven more by fear of side effects that, if experienced, may mean they lose shifts at one or more of their multiple jobs, which do not have benefits and may even lead to losing their job.

And while we have the same disinformation sources, and possibly similar rates of illiteracy, it generally isn't a culture war question (except in some communities / demographics)...
Valid... and the provinces aren't doing much to address these concerns. Staff are supposed to be protected from being fired because they're sick, but if it happens, how does a low-resource person manage to pay their rent and fight back?
I gotta say though, here in Vancouver anyone who lost that kind of shift work, no benefits job could probably get another one fast. So many positions open.

MudPuppy

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@Missy B thanks for sharing!

Shane

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While the narrative that some who have not yet gotten vaccinated are underprivileged in some way - no internet, poor, illiterate, busy working at multiple low-paying part-time jobs, etc. - is no doubt true in some cases, literally every. single. person. I know irl who remains unvaccinated is just a privileged asshole, who could easily get vaccinated at any time, but is just choosing not to, in order to try to make a political point, or just because they don't want to be seen as giving in to the libs.

former player

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Yes, that seems to be a cultural thing in the USA.  There is a bit of it in the UK, particularly with misinformation being passed around minority communities, but our own entitled assholes seem to have a better sense of self-preservation and high rates of vaccination.

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While the narrative that some who have not yet gotten vaccinated are underprivileged in some way - no internet, poor, illiterate, busy working at multiple low-paying part-time jobs, etc. - is no doubt true in some cases, literally every. single. person. I know irl who remains unvaccinated is just a privileged asshole, who could easily get vaccinated at any time, but is just choosing not to, in order to try to make a political point, or just because they don't want to be seen as giving in to the libs.

same.

Adventine

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Do you have any links for that research?

Dr. John Campbell explains MMR title/covid study
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdAPgglDJAU&t=87s

Study of MMR titre and covid severity (explained by John Campbell above)
https://mbio.asm.org/content/11/6/e02628-20

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2020/12/09/2142128/0/en/Measles-Mumps-Rubella-MMR-Vaccine-COVID-19-Latest-News-from-World-Organization.html

Article MMR vaccinated populations and COVID
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341354165_MMR_Vaccine_Appears_to_Confer_Strong_Protection_from_COVID-19_Few_Deaths_from_SARS-CoV-2_in_Highly_Vaccinated_Populations

Thank you for these links. Although I will look into them in-depth later, they make me feel more reassured. I got vaccinated for COVID in March, and for MMR just a few weeks ago (immigration requirement).

In case additional studies confirm that the MMR vaccine does protect against COVID-19, it will be amazing news for all countries struggling to procure COVID vaccine supplies. As far as I know, the MMR vaccine is cheap and widely available in developing countries.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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While the narrative that some who have not yet gotten vaccinated are underprivileged in some way - no internet, poor, illiterate, busy working at multiple low-paying part-time jobs, etc. - is no doubt true in some cases, literally every. single. person. I know irl who remains unvaccinated is just a privileged asshole, who could easily get vaccinated at any time, but is just choosing not to, in order to try to make a political point, or just because they don't want to be seen as giving in to the libs.

same.
I know several people who are not getting vaccinated because they had covid already. That seems reasonable, even if the public health policy doesn't seem to formally recognize that infection results in lasting immunity for people with ordinary immune systems.

MudPuppy

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I’ve known too many people who’ve had a second go-round with it to trust “natural” immunity.

Abe

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While the narrative that some who have not yet gotten vaccinated are underprivileged in some way - no internet, poor, illiterate, busy working at multiple low-paying part-time jobs, etc. - is no doubt true in some cases, literally every. single. person. I know irl who remains unvaccinated is just a privileged asshole, who could easily get vaccinated at any time, but is just choosing not to, in order to try to make a political point, or just because they don't want to be seen as giving in to the libs.

same.
I know several people who are not getting vaccinated because they had covid already. That seems reasonable, even if the public health policy doesn't seem to formally recognize that infection results in lasting immunity for people with ordinary immune systems.

I don’t believe we have data to confirm this for sars-cov-2, though it is reasonable to assume it’s true based on data from sars-cov-1. Also we definitely don’t know how effective natural immunity to the variants from last year are for this years’ variants. With sars-cov-1, the outbreak was limited enough that few significantly different variants formed. This limits what we can extrapolate regarding variant cross-immunity from that data. Compared to the solid data on cross-immunity from the mRNA, vaccination is prudent for people who previously were infected. Thus a word of caution to people going the “fool me twice” route.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 06:34:20 PM by Abe »

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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I’ve known too many people who’ve had a second go-round with it to trust “natural” immunity.
And I know people who had adverse reactions to the vaccine, including ER visits. This is one of many papers that go beyond anecdote. Pretending that vaccines are 100% benefit and 0% risk is the sort of messaging that is making people suspicious of the "expert" medical opinions being amplified.

I'm punching down a bit here but it's interesting to read MSM accounts like this that simultaneously point out nearly 1 billion Indians have antibodies against covid and then states this (emphasis mine):
"Overseeing one of the world’s largest vaccination drives (India has to vaccinate around a billion adults) is no easy task and the total vaccination rate remains sluggish when compared with other countries around the world."
Why does India have to vaccinate a billion people when only an estimated 400M are seronegative?

MudPuppy

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I never said it was risk free. Remains less risky than covid.

Abe

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I’ve known too many people who’ve had a second go-round with it to trust “natural” immunity.
And I know people who had adverse reactions to the vaccine, including ER visits. This is one of many papers that go beyond anecdote. Pretending that vaccines are 100% benefit and 0% risk is the sort of messaging that is making people suspicious of the "expert" medical opinions being amplified.

I'm punching down a bit here but it's interesting to read MSM accounts like this that simultaneously point out nearly 1 billion Indians have antibodies against covid and then states this (emphasis mine):
"Overseeing one of the world’s largest vaccination drives (India has to vaccinate around a billion adults) is no easy task and the total vaccination rate remains sluggish when compared with other countries around the world."
Why does India have to vaccinate a billion people when only an estimated 400M are seronegative?

No one is pretending there is 0% risk. We know the risk is not 0% but somewhere around 0.001% for a serious adverse events. The paper you cite is a study of 18 individuals. I don’t hang my medical decisions on studies that small.

The reinfection rate after severe covid-19 is approximately 0.5-1%. Approximately 30% of those who are reinfected have respiratory failure due to the reinfection. This again is based on a small number of total events (63), but a large population sample size of ~9000.  https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab345/6251701
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 06:43:12 PM by Abe »

former player

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I’ve known too many people who’ve had a second go-round with it to trust “natural” immunity.
And I know people who had adverse reactions to the vaccine, including ER visits. This is one of many papers that go beyond anecdote. Pretending that vaccines are 100% benefit and 0% risk is the sort of messaging that is making people suspicious of the "expert" medical opinions being amplified.

I'm punching down a bit here but it's interesting to read MSM accounts like this that simultaneously point out nearly 1 billion Indians have antibodies against covid and then states this (emphasis mine):
"Overseeing one of the world’s largest vaccination drives (India has to vaccinate around a billion adults) is no easy task and the total vaccination rate remains sluggish when compared with other countries around the world."
Why does India have to vaccinate a billion people when only an estimated 400M are seronegative?

No one is pretending there is 0% risk. We know the risk is not 0% but somewhere around 0.001% for a serious adverse events. The paper you cite is a study of 18 individuals. I don’t hang my medical decisions on studies that small.

The reinfection rate after severe covid-19 is approximately 0.5-1%. Approximately 30% of those who are reinfected have respiratory failure due to the reinfection. This again is based on a small number of total events (63), but a large population sample size of ~9000.  https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab345/6251701
Reinfection rates are higher with the Delta variant -

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/23/phe-upgrade-delta-variants-risk-level-due-to-reinfection-risk

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I’ve known too many people who’ve had a second go-round with it to trust “natural” immunity.

There is also a huge number of people who claim to have had it in early days but we’re never tested due to early pandemic system lag and overwhelm, but in reality they could just as likely have had something else. 

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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I’ve known too many people who’ve had a second go-round with it to trust “natural” immunity.
And I know people who had adverse reactions to the vaccine, including ER visits. This is one of many papers that go beyond anecdote. Pretending that vaccines are 100% benefit and 0% risk is the sort of messaging that is making people suspicious of the "expert" medical opinions being amplified.

I'm punching down a bit here but it's interesting to read MSM accounts like this that simultaneously point out nearly 1 billion Indians have antibodies against covid and then states this (emphasis mine):
"Overseeing one of the world’s largest vaccination drives (India has to vaccinate around a billion adults) is no easy task and the total vaccination rate remains sluggish when compared with other countries around the world."
Why does India have to vaccinate a billion people when only an estimated 400M are seronegative?

No one is pretending there is 0% risk. We know the risk is not 0% but somewhere around 0.001% for a serious adverse events. The paper you cite is a study of 18 individuals. I don’t hang my medical decisions on studies that small.

The reinfection rate after severe covid-19 is approximately 0.5-1%. Approximately 30% of those who are reinfected have respiratory failure due to the reinfection. This again is based on a small number of total events (63), but a large population sample size of ~9000.  https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab345/6251701
Studies have further shown that a single shot of an mRNA vaccine can boost antibody levels in formerly infected people but a second dose provides no benefit. If we can better understand the characteristics of the ~1% that are getting reinfected (age, comorbidities?) and give them a single booster dose, that would be a more reasonable policy than the current one where everyone is treated the same regardless of past exposure. If there are no discerning features of reinfected individuals, then advising a single mRNA shot if >6(?) months after an infection would be a better policy than administering two shots. Providing the previously infected vaccines would require 200 doses of a 2-dose vaccine to get the same protective benefit as 2 doses in a seronegative individual, which should be a big consideration in countries with limited vaccine supply.

I am less confident that the risks of vaccination are as low as you suggest. It might be they are safe such that serious complications and death are ~1 in 100K but it's hard to take the efforts to determine vaccine safety in the US seriously. Israel and the UK are better places to look for this data and I believe a proper analysis will take some time. Until then, I don't think that treating someone with concerns for safety as a crazy person, in particular, given the novel nature of the mRNA vaccines and the lack of long-term safety data.

For the record, I am broadly pro-vax and got vaccinated at the first opportunity. I am in a relatively anti-vax region and can see how tone-deaf the CDC's messaging is on vaccinations among those with either reasonable or unreasonable safety concerns. It is the same sort of tenor that many Democratic politicians and partisans take towards the more red part of the US: arrogant, dismissive, and smug.

I’ve known too many people who’ve had a second go-round with it to trust “natural” immunity.

There is also a huge number of people who claim to have had it in early days but we’re never tested due to early pandemic system lag and overwhelm, but in reality they could just as likely have had something else. 
Quite right and I think a positive PCR test + symptoms should be the criteria to determine past infection, though you can also get the T-Detect test for those who are curious if their illness was possibly Covid.

MudPuppy

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I’ve known too many people who’ve had a second go-round with it to trust “natural” immunity.

There is also a huge number of people who claim to have had it in early days but we’re never tested due to early pandemic system lag and overwhelm, but in reality they could just as likely have had something else.

My employer has mandated regular testing since last April. I’ve seen the positives myself.

habanero

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Quote
I am less confident that the risks of vaccination are as low as you suggest. It might be they are safe such that serious complications and death are ~1 in 100K but it's hard to take the efforts to determine vaccine safety in the US seriously. Israel and the UK are better places to look for this data and I believe a proper analysis will take some time. Until then, I don't think that treating someone with concerns for safety as a crazy person, in particular, given the novel nature of the mRNA vaccines and the lack of long-term safety data.

We have extremly good side effect monitoring, it was here (Norway) and Denmark the lethal effects of AZ were discovered and we were the first to suspend use and eventually AZ never was reintroduced. J&J is not part of our vaccine programme for fear of the same so no data there from us. Out of 136000 AZ doses administered six got the lethal condition. Four died, two survived. Only young persons as it was skewed towards health care workers.

For the mRNA there are reports of something with a pouch around the heart. Around 20 cases I think in  close to five million doses administered. Some of these are rather harmless another variety more serious but it’s treatable and no one has died from it.

Our health authorities have very low faith in numbers from the US as this is hard to detect and the fragmented US health system makes monitoring harder. Bear in mind that the AZ condition barely existed until, based on data from us and Denmark, other countries looked a bit harder and found similar cases. When AZ denied the link in the beginning the folks who discovered it here prettt much said AZ was bat-shit crazy to deny it as it was so bloody obvious, zero doubt and nothing to discuss. They were right.

wenchsenior

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I’ve known too many people who’ve had a second go-round with it to trust “natural” immunity.

There is also a huge number of people who claim to have had it in early days but we’re never tested due to early pandemic system lag and overwhelm, but in reality they could just as likely have had something else.

Yes, two of my aunts were super sick in the winter of 19/20; neither were antivax, but one convinced the other they must have had Covid and were therefore immune and probably not at big risk if they weren't masking (probably not coincidentally, these are the two extroverts in the family who were struggling with the social isolation and really wanted to be out doing things, while the rest of the family was perfectly happy to spend months and months in lockdown).  A few months into the pandemic, antibody testing became available and one of them got tested and she had not had covid at all (but likely a bad case of flu).  She was honestly really surprised (and mad) about it. But at least she actually tested her assumption, and was a lot more careful about masking after that.

wenchsenior

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My husband just found out that the admin assistant at his office, who had let everyone assume she'd been vaccinated during countless safety meetings over the past year, had NOT been vaccinated and has just informed everyone at the office that she's been exposed and is self isolating.  (At least she did that).  But in the meantime, my husband has been doing a few days at the office each week not masked, under the assumption that everyone in the small number of people there was fully vaccinated.  And of course, his grad students have been interacting with the admin assistant regularly, have thus also potentially been exposed.

So he informed his supervisor he will be working from home from now on, unless being in the office is an absolute necessity (and it rarely is).  Of course, they can't require masking OR vaccination in the office b/c it's on state property and the governor has outlawed mandates of that sort at the universities.  It brings up the question of what to do if he found out one of his lab members (grad students) had defied him on getting the vaccine (esp. since they do lab trips where they are all confined together in vehicles). Could he just fire them from their grad positions for failure to comply with lab rules?

I fucking hate anti-vaxers.

MudPuppy

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That’s so frustrating. Hoping that those who had the sense to get the vaccine stay well!

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It's frustrating, watching people who try to do right, having the bear the brunt of consequences from the most irresponsible people. Here in the middle of the map, COVID-19's Delta strain is surging wildly. Two prominent sports coaches, both fully vaccinated, announced this week they have it. I wouldn't be surprised if had to go back to masks at work in the next couple of weeks.

habanero

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This is the latest from our side effect monitoring:

The top row is number of doses.
Then total side effects reported
Then deaths
Then serious cases ex deaths
Then non-serious.

The double asterix points out that a link in time between vaccination and death does not imply the vaccine caused the deaths. For the mRNA they have identified 10 cases where they assume a direct link, all those are given as normal side effects but enough to cause death in very old and hence fragile persons in nursing homes. The others are assumed that death happens just within the monitoring time frame, but not caused by the vaccine itself.





Abe

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To translate into percentages, it’s a 0.04%-0.08% risk of any serious adverse events after receiving a dose of the vaccine. Important to note is that in the randomized trials, many of the adverse events were at the same rate in both placebo and vaccine arms. This indicates that the true adverse event rate is lower than would be reported in registries. Thus, the percentages here represent the maximum of the potential risk of the vaccines and are likely an overestimate.

And not to turn this into a political debate, but I think arrogant dismissal is an issue on both sides of the aisle regarding this pandemic.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2021, 12:31:06 PM by Abe »