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General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: ltt on December 27, 2016, 09:12:01 PM

Title: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: ltt on December 27, 2016, 09:12:01 PM


https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/13-kids-13-college-educations-not-rich-retiring-early/2016/08/08/3abe7cec-38b4-11e6-a254-2b336e293a3c_story.html?utm_term=.5636d7cffaa3
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: minority_finance_mo on December 27, 2016, 10:05:52 PM
Ho-lee-ish

Good for them for saving and being frugal, but hot damn... 13 kids?!?
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: independence on December 27, 2016, 11:39:14 PM
Good for them!

The article was a bit odd and had some conflicting information but the comments section is insane. "The kids will rebel against this frugal lifestyle." All seem perfectly happy to me. Their lifestyle is "greatly subsidized by the taxpayers". Unless their accountant wrote this, I'd love to know how they know. "Eat junk from a cheap place and then become a burden to the health care system." I had no idea that chicken, blueberries and potatoes were so bad for me. Better stop shopping at that cheap place Aldi.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: marty998 on December 28, 2016, 12:18:55 AM
Who in their right mind has 13 kids?

They seem like lovely people raising well adjusted kids though, so I won't bash them... but dear god, 13 is over the top.

If you ignore the size of the family, there are a lot of good lessons there.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: nnls on December 28, 2016, 12:50:25 AM
Who in their right mind has 13 kids?

They seem like lovely people raising well adjusted kids though, so I won't bash them... but dear god, 13 is over the top.

If you ignore the size of the family, there are a lot of good lessons there.

I assume because they are Catholic they don't believe in contraception. And every child being Gods gift ect. Though they could have tried natural methods like the billings method or something.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: runewell on December 28, 2016, 08:15:44 AM
What's wrong with 13 kids?
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: Dicey on December 28, 2016, 08:41:47 AM
WTF? Pete is a "lapsed" engineer? Really? Makes me wonder how much of the Fatzinger's story got distorted while passing through the author's odd prism.
If they can walk to their walk and talk their talk, I'm thrilled for them. Life is what you make it and theirs certainly is interesting. Thanks for the link, Itt. Good read!
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: J Boogie on December 28, 2016, 08:46:16 AM
In my opinion, the judgment regarding family size swings both ways.

It's generally frowned upon to view those who chose less or no children negatively.  It should also be frowned upon to view those who choose to have many children negatively.

I understand that humans have a significant environmental footprint.  The US doesn't so much suffer from overpopulation as the world suffers from its overconsumption, so I don't think it's bad to create more US citizens that underconsume.  There's even a possibility that they'll influence others to consume less as well.

Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: OurTown on December 28, 2016, 09:03:59 AM
13 seems like a lot of kids.  In fact, anything north of 3 seems like a lot to me.  YMMV.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: DragonSlayer on December 28, 2016, 09:06:49 AM
I love the comments after articles like this that always say, "I would have liked more details on how they're saving money." Um... The major detail was covered. Spend less than you earn. That's the only "detail" that matters. Whether that's by eschewing cell phones, cable TV, expensive clothes, etc., that's the only detail you need. And if the author had laid out every detail, then the whining would be, "But you can't live without [insert stuff here]." It's a no win for the writers.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: Gin1984 on December 28, 2016, 09:16:43 AM
This part bugs me
Quote
Friends and strangers also chip in. “We always have someone dropping off a bike,” Sam said. “We would get things and not even know where they came from.”

Someone stuck an anonymous $500 gift card on the Fatzingers’ front door. And a pair of size 3 white shoes for church wound up on the doorstep for a young daughter who could use them.

It would be one thing if they take something someone does not need, but it looks like they are being subsidies by church/family/friends.  That is not independence to me.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: Dicey on December 28, 2016, 09:39:39 AM
This part bugs me
Quote
Friends and strangers also chip in. “We always have someone dropping off a bike,” Sam said. “We would get things and not even know where they came from.”

Someone stuck an anonymous $500 gift card on the Fatzingers’ front door. And a pair of size 3 white shoes for church wound up on the doorstep for a young daughter who could use them.

It would be one thing if they take something someone does not need, but it looks like they are being subsidies by church/family/friends.  That is not independence to me.
Who said independence is the be-all and end-all? It takes a village and all that. If they have created a helpful, supportive community around their family, what's wrong with that?
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: Gin1984 on December 28, 2016, 10:12:56 AM
This part bugs me
Quote
Friends and strangers also chip in. “We always have someone dropping off a bike,” Sam said. “We would get things and not even know where they came from.”

Someone stuck an anonymous $500 gift card on the Fatzingers’ front door. And a pair of size 3 white shoes for church wound up on the doorstep for a young daughter who could use them.

It would be one thing if they take something someone does not need, but it looks like they are being subsidies by church/family/friends.  That is not independence to me.
Who said independence is the be-all and end-all? It takes a village and all that. If they have created a helpful, supportive community around their family, what's wrong with that?
The article is positing that THEY had 13 kids and based on their frugal behavior were able to put them all through school (except no, the grandmother subsidized that and the kids worked, oh and yes the federal and state governments also subsidized it) and he is still able to retire early.  No, he is able to do this because of frugal behavior but also because they got a lot of subsidization that many people don't.  I'm pretty sure I've never gotten a free car, in fact.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: Cpa Cat on December 28, 2016, 10:42:36 AM
I'm surprised at how many people on this forum have an issue with these people claiming to be FI because they get subsidies. A lot of people get subsidies. Most people on this forum will get a subsidy of some kind in their life if they retire early.

Child Tax Credit
Earned Income Tax Credit
Obamacare subsidy
University scholarships and grants
Subsidized federal student loans


Also:
Hand-me-down clothing
Gifts from family members to children
Help from family members and friends when sick or during emergencies
Help from family members and friends for projects

People with a lot of kids get more subsidies as a rule, and often those subsidies are unsolicited. My SIL has 5 kids and she has been offered money for groceries at the store - not because she asked for it, but because feel like people with lots of kids need assistance.

I've given a family member an old car. I don't understand why this would mean they're never allowed to call themselves independent.

And don't pretend that you wouldn't let your kids take need-based awards for school.

If I knew someone with 13 kids and I found something in my house that looked like it would be useful to them, I'd probably give it to them, too. I don't think that means I'm stealing their independence. I'm just giving them some stuff I found in my house. So people drop off their old bikes and like-new shoes that their kids have grown out of? Who cares?

So grandma and the kids chip in for university? Who cares?
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: Bracken_Joy on December 28, 2016, 10:56:12 AM
I'm with CPA cat here. The amount of judgement on the "right" way to be FI is kinda insane. And the article covered what they get, but it doesn't mention what they give- I bet you they also participate in the church and community. I grew up in a rambunctious pack with all my cousins- usually there were 7-9 of us together at a time, and we went between various aunt's/moms houses. We were loaned out for labor all the time. Painting, bucking hay, landscaping, volunteering for people's community events they had arranged, etc. Everyone got a lot of hand me downs, both from family and from friends/community. It's a two way street is what I'm saying.

And I have given a running car to a relative, FYI. I don't think that's super uncommon.

Plus, implying that their kids getting merit based scholarships doesn't count is RIDICULOUS. For one thing, they're home schooled, so the very fact that they're getting in and writing a good essay (and graduating 2 years early) is already a reflection on the achievements of the family.

If their family size bothers you, take a moment to reflect that plenty of people disagree with some of your life choices too. Perpetuating that cycle of judgement doesn't help anyone to improve themselves, their community, or the world.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: mathlete on December 28, 2016, 12:31:48 PM
You guys are right. We all accept help in one way or another.

Tax breaks are one thing. I don't necessarily think I'm owed the only significant tax break I get (mortgage interest write off), but at the same time, I know that not taking it would do literally nothing except change the accounting on imaginary Federal dollars at an imperceptible level.

I can't wrap my head around accepting three cars and $500 as a healthy adult with a middle class income in the United States though. Those are resources that could be easily redirected to someone more needy.

That being said, people can do whatever they want. I don't care.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: MrsDinero on December 28, 2016, 12:47:57 PM
This part bugs me
Quote
Friends and strangers also chip in. “We always have someone dropping off a bike,” Sam said. “We would get things and not even know where they came from.”

Someone stuck an anonymous $500 gift card on the Fatzingers’ front door. And a pair of size 3 white shoes for church wound up on the doorstep for a young daughter who could use them.

It would be one thing if they take something someone does not need, but it looks like they are being subsidies by church/family/friends.  That is not independence to me.

My friend sent me enough used baby clothes that I didn't have to buy any for at least 6 months.  Does this mean I'm not independently raising my child outside of my friend?  No it means, my friend has something she didn't need anymore but I did so she passed it my to save me money.  Could I buy all new for my baby?  yes but why should I when I had someone more than willing to give me used clothing?

If I knew these people I would probably drop stuff off at their house too!  This way I could get rid of something I no longer needed/wanted and give it to someone who could still get use out of it.  Much better than tossing it in the landfill.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: Dicey on December 28, 2016, 12:55:54 PM
Cue the Beatles - With a Little Help From My Friends...

ETA: In light of all the subsequent comments, much of it unnecessary snark, IMO, I'm adding that I meant this in a most positive way. 0% snark intended or implied. Now, if I could just get that worm out of my head...
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: mathlete on December 28, 2016, 01:09:16 PM
My friend sent me enough used baby clothes that I didn't have to buy any for at least 6 months.  Does this mean I'm not independently raising my child outside of my friend?  No it means, my friend has something she didn't need anymore but I did so she passed it my to save me money.  Could I buy all new for my baby?  yes but why should I when I had someone more than willing to give me used clothing?

If I knew these people I would probably drop stuff off at their house too!  This way I could get rid of something I no longer needed/wanted and give it to someone who could still get use out of it.  Much better than tossing it in the landfill.

Yeah, but as far as I know, there is no market for used baby clothes so you were probably doing your friend a favor by taking them as much as they were by giving.

There is; however, a quite robust market for running used cars. So the three times the family had been given cars according to the article, the givers were actually giving up an asset with fair market value.

And of course, $500 is $500.

People are free to give and accept whatever they please of course.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: Cpa Cat on December 28, 2016, 02:01:44 PM
I can't wrap my head around accepting three cars and $500 as a healthy adult with a middle class income in the United States though. Those are resources that could be easily redirected to someone more needy.

I'm rich and I just accepted $500 three days ago at Christmas. I redirected it straight to my bank account. Better call the FI Police.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: Gin1984 on December 28, 2016, 02:44:14 PM
I'm with CPA cat here. The amount of judgement on the "right" way to be FI is kinda insane. And the article covered what they get, but it doesn't mention what they give- I bet you they also participate in the church and community. I grew up in a rambunctious pack with all my cousins- usually there were 7-9 of us together at a time, and we went between various aunt's/moms houses. We were loaned out for labor all the time. Painting, bucking hay, landscaping, volunteering for people's community events they had arranged, etc. Everyone got a lot of hand me downs, both from family and from friends/community. It's a two way street is what I'm saying.

And I have given a running car to a relative, FYI. I don't think that's super uncommon.

Plus, implying that their kids getting merit based scholarships doesn't count is RIDICULOUS. For one thing, they're home schooled, so the very fact that they're getting in and writing a good essay (and graduating 2 years early) is already a reflection on the achievements of the family.

If their family size bothers you, take a moment to reflect that plenty of people disagree with some of your life choices too. Perpetuating that cycle of judgement doesn't help anyone to improve themselves, their community, or the world.
Actually I did not mention merit scholarships to all. I said "yes the federal and state governments also subsidized it" because they got federal grants and state grants/discounts on state tuition. 
People are not judging because they did it wrong, they are judging because the attitude is we did this great thing, and they had a lot of help which many people don't get and they got because people thought they needed the help.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: Dezrah on December 28, 2016, 02:50:13 PM
http://www.madfientist.com/how-to-retire-early-with-13-kids/ (http://www.madfientist.com/how-to-retire-early-with-13-kids/)

I knew this story seemed familiar.  It's great to hear they're still going strong.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: Bracken_Joy on December 28, 2016, 02:52:11 PM
I'm with CPA cat here. The amount of judgement on the "right" way to be FI is kinda insane. And the article covered what they get, but it doesn't mention what they give- I bet you they also participate in the church and community. I grew up in a rambunctious pack with all my cousins- usually there were 7-9 of us together at a time, and we went between various aunt's/moms houses. We were loaned out for labor all the time. Painting, bucking hay, landscaping, volunteering for people's community events they had arranged, etc. Everyone got a lot of hand me downs, both from family and from friends/community. It's a two way street is what I'm saying.

And I have given a running car to a relative, FYI. I don't think that's super uncommon.

Plus, implying that their kids getting merit based scholarships doesn't count is RIDICULOUS. For one thing, they're home schooled, so the very fact that they're getting in and writing a good essay (and graduating 2 years early) is already a reflection on the achievements of the family.

If their family size bothers you, take a moment to reflect that plenty of people disagree with some of your life choices too. Perpetuating that cycle of judgement doesn't help anyone to improve themselves, their community, or the world.
Actually I did not mention merit scholarships to all. I said "yes the federal and state governments also subsidized it" because they got federal grants and state grants/discounts on state tuition. 
People are not judging because they did it wrong, they are judging because the attitude is we did this great thing, and they had a lot of help which many people don't get and they got because people thought they needed the help.

Yes, and many people are retiring here on the basis of getting health insurance for cheaper because they're low income once they retire.

If we're making a fuss about accepting government assistance, there are bigger fish to fry here.

I was on food stamps at one point. Does that mean I'm not allowed to celebrate having crossed $100k net worth this year?

This is just ridiculous. The implication that they're not allowed to celebrate their accomplishments. I guarantee you there are some families of faith with lots of kids who their story inspires. We need more voices that aren't young tech workers. If we don't proudly display the achievements of people in other situations, then people can so much more easily dismiss the classic MMM profile- young, geographically mobile, less tied to local community, religious, different fields of work, etc. We should *encourage* this family (and others like them) to tell their stories in the hopes that people see there is a way to retire and succeed and be debt free, even if you don't fit the standard financial blogger mold.

Let's not piss in someone's cereal and instead celebrate what they HAVE achieved, m'kay?
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: PawPrint53 on December 28, 2016, 03:27:51 PM

Yeah, but as far as I know, there is no market for used baby clothes so you were probably doing your friend a favor by taking them as much as they were by giving.

Actually, in some towns, there is a market for used baby/kid clothes. I lived in a town in Oregon with a resale store,  and I live in a town in Idaho with a resale store. The amusing part is that it's the same store--the person moved from Oregon to Idaho and moved her business, too. She did a great business in Oregon and does a great business in Idaho. I'm sure there must be other baby clothing retail stores in other areas.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: lostamonkey on December 28, 2016, 03:29:07 PM
I don't see a problem with them taking government/family subsidies. I just feel that having 13 kids is  unethical and selfish given the environmental impact. Even if the kids live a fairly low consumption lifestyle by American standards, they will still have a huge environmental impact compared to a traditional 2-kid family.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: Bracken_Joy on December 28, 2016, 03:57:00 PM
I don't see a problem with them taking government/family subsidies. I just feel that having 13 kids is  unethical and selfish given the environmental impact. Even if the kids live a fairly low consumption lifestyle by American standards, they will still have a huge environmental impact compared to a traditional 2-kid family.

This argument really doesn't hold water unless it's coming from someone with an investment portfolio only in ethical companies (no oil), don't drive, live in a small home, etc etc. Judge not lest you be judged and all that. I would venture a guess most people being critical of this family's choices are not working in every way possible to minimize their carbon footprint.

Like my dad always says- "I'll only argue about hunting with a vegan wearing plastic shoes". Be sure to be above reproach before you consider judging the choices of others. We can work to improve ourselves without tearing down others.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: lostamonkey on December 28, 2016, 04:31:35 PM
I don't see a problem with them taking government/family subsidies. I just feel that having 13 kids is  unethical and selfish given the environmental impact. Even if the kids live a fairly low consumption lifestyle by American standards, they will still have a huge environmental impact compared to a traditional 2-kid family.

This argument really doesn't hold water unless it's coming from someone with an investment portfolio only in ethical companies (no oil), don't drive, live in a small home, etc etc. Judge not lest you be judged and all that. I would venture a guess most people being critical of this family's choices are not working in every way possible to minimize their carbon footprint.


This is not true. I can absolutely judge people without being ethically perfect myself. None of us totally minimize expenses but we criticize anti-Mustachians. We can judge mordidly obese people without being perfectly healthy ourselves.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: Bracken_Joy on December 28, 2016, 04:57:30 PM
I don't see a problem with them taking government/family subsidies. I just feel that having 13 kids is  unethical and selfish given the environmental impact. Even if the kids live a fairly low consumption lifestyle by American standards, they will still have a huge environmental impact compared to a traditional 2-kid family.

This argument really doesn't hold water unless it's coming from someone with an investment portfolio only in ethical companies (no oil), don't drive, live in a small home, etc etc. Judge not lest you be judged and all that. I would venture a guess most people being critical of this family's choices are not working in every way possible to minimize their carbon footprint.


This is not true. I can absolutely judge people without being ethically perfect myself. None of us totally minimize expenses but we criticize anti-Mustachians. We can judge mordidly obese people without being perfectly healthy ourselves.

Or we could across the board judge people less? I personally think the forums would better serve people if we *didn't* have the anti-mustachian board of shame. I understand that in-group norms are strengthened by establishing the "otherness" of outgroups, but that doesn't make it beneficial as a whole.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: lostamonkey on December 28, 2016, 05:50:59 PM
I don't see a problem with them taking government/family subsidies. I just feel that having 13 kids is  unethical and selfish given the environmental impact. Even if the kids live a fairly low consumption lifestyle by American standards, they will still have a huge environmental impact compared to a traditional 2-kid family.

This argument really doesn't hold water unless it's coming from someone with an investment portfolio only in ethical companies (no oil), don't drive, live in a small home, etc etc. Judge not lest you be judged and all that. I would venture a guess most people being critical of this family's choices are not working in every way possible to minimize their carbon footprint.


This is not true. I can absolutely judge people without being ethically perfect myself. None of us totally minimize expenses but we criticize anti-Mustachians. We can judge mordidly obese people without being perfectly healthy ourselves.

Or we could across the board judge people less? I personally think the forums would better serve people if we *didn't* have the anti-mustachian board of shame. I understand that in-group norms are strengthened by establishing the "otherness" of outgroups, but that doesn't make it beneficial as a whole.

I don't see an issue judging people based on choices they make. It would be wrong to criticize someone based on their skin colour, gender, or sexual orientation but I think it's fine to criticize spending habits, diet choices, and number of children. I think the anti-Mustachian hall of shame is an entertaining sub-forum.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: shanghaiMMM on December 28, 2016, 06:07:51 PM
I don't see a problem with them taking government/family subsidies. I just feel that having 13 kids is  unethical and selfish given the environmental impact. Even if the kids live a fairly low consumption lifestyle by American standards, they will still have a huge environmental impact compared to a traditional 2-kid family.

This argument really doesn't hold water unless it's coming from someone with an investment portfolio only in ethical companies (no oil), don't drive, live in a small home, etc etc. Judge not lest you be judged and all that. I would venture a guess most people being critical of this family's choices are not working in every way possible to minimize their carbon footprint.


This is not true. I can absolutely judge people without being ethically perfect myself. None of us totally minimize expenses but we criticize anti-Mustachians. We can judge mordidly obese people without being perfectly healthy ourselves.

Or we could across the board judge people less? I personally think the forums would better serve people if we *didn't* have the anti-mustachian board of shame. I understand that in-group norms are strengthened by establishing the "otherness" of outgroups, but that doesn't make it beneficial as a whole.

I don't see an issue judging people based on choices they make. It would be wrong to criticize someone based on their skin colour, gender, or sexual orientation but I think it's fine to criticize spending habits, diet choices, and number of children. I think the anti-Mustachian hall of shame is an entertaining sub-forum.

Yes and no.

The person buying a new car despite $100k debt seems open to judgement. But then how do you know enough to judge them? Perhaps they're not in full control of their mental faculties. Perhaps they've suffered an unknown tragedy and this is their release. Perhaps they're just very uneducated with regards to maths and finance.

It's something I would definitely like to improve upon myself... So no judgement here ;-)
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: ltt on December 28, 2016, 06:36:44 PM
http://www.madfientist.com/how-to-retire-early-with-13-kids/ (http://www.madfientist.com/how-to-retire-early-with-13-kids/)

I knew this story seemed familiar.  It's great to hear they're still going strong.

Oops, I didn't look at the date of the article when posting---it was from earlier this Fall.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: lostamonkey on December 28, 2016, 06:39:08 PM
MMM would give this person a "facepunch" without asking them for mitigating circumstances. We all face tragedies and that is no excuse for self destructive behaviour. And ignorance is also not really an excuse either.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: Dictionary Time on December 28, 2016, 07:19:48 PM
Well, when you're doing the math on their subsidies, they homeschooled the kids, so if you figure the cost to the government for each kid K-College, they may be ahead of a traditional family.

$10,000/year for the 13 years is 130,000.

Pell Grants (5,730/year), Subsidized Loans (n/a since they don't do loans), and work study (involves actual work) don't add up to that much.  Tax credits (2,500/2,000/year) helped out too.

They went to community college for 2 years and transferred to a state school. He said some got enough merit aid to go for free and some paid 5K/year. That fits with the less talented kids getting only a Pell Grant.

So ... 5,730 times 13 kids (eventually) times 4 years is 300K or so. (Tax credits are harder because they would only receive that for the kids that paid, and only for a fraction of the amount they paid, and we don't have enough info.) So the cost to the country for education is less than a 3 kid family. Or if you live in a high COL area, 2 kids.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: shanghaiMMM on December 28, 2016, 07:20:54 PM
MMM would give this person a "facepunch" without asking them for mitigating circumstances. We all face tragedies and that is no excuse for self destructive behaviour. And ignorance is also not really an excuse either.

And MMM is a deliberately judgmental persona in order to try get his messages through to the masses. That doesn't mean you need to follow suit in real life.

Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: J Boogie on December 29, 2016, 08:09:46 AM
MMM would give this person a "facepunch" without asking them for mitigating circumstances. We all face tragedies and that is no excuse for self destructive behaviour. And ignorance is also not really an excuse either.

And MMM is a deliberately judgmental persona in order to try get his messages through to the masses. That doesn't mean you need to follow suit in real life.

Very good observation.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: Davids on December 29, 2016, 01:24:38 PM
13 seems like a lot of kids.  In fact, anything north of 3 seems like a lot to me.  YMMV.
For many on here anything north of 0 is a lot.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: CloserToFree on December 29, 2016, 02:12:33 PM
The amount of judgment in the comments section to the article really is amazing - and typical to reactions to stories like this one (including MMMs).  Folks tend to have a knee jerk reaction of "how is this possible?!! I haven't been able to prosper/save/retire early so it must be impossible to do and these people must be scamming the system."  It's skepticism of the unfamiliar, I think, given that most of us are surrounded by anti-Mustachian consumerist types.

If their family size bothers you, take a moment to reflect that plenty of people disagree with some of your life choices too. Perpetuating that cycle of judgement doesn't help anyone to improve themselves, their community, or the world.

This is so true, and it reminds me of one reason why I'm a big fan of the Frugalwoods blog (www.frugalwoods.com).  Judging others really only reflects poorly on ourselves -- why do we feel the need to criticize or judge someone's decisions when we have not been in their shoes?  I almost slipped into this mentality about the 13 kids -- for me, that's insane, and for a lot of people who don't have their shit together I'd think it was irresponsible.  But I don't share the same religious beliefs as these people do -- and anyway, hey, the fact that they've managed to thrive as a family and raise kids with strong financial independence and knowledge levels is commendable regardless of what you think of their family planning beliefs.  These two Frugalwoods posts are some of my favorites:
http://www.frugalwoods.com/2015/06/17/why-i-wont-judge-your-spending/
http://www.frugalwoods.com/2015/02/16/the-privilege-of-pursuing-financial-independence/
 
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: MrAlanBreck on January 03, 2017, 11:21:24 AM
The amount of judgment in the comments section to the article really is amazing - and typical to reactions to stories like this one (including MMMs).  Folks tend to have a knee jerk reaction of "how is this possible?!! I haven't been able to prosper/save/retire early so it must be impossible to do and these people must be scamming the system."  It's skepticism of the unfamiliar, I think, given that most of us are surrounded by anti-Mustachian consumerist types.

If their family size bothers you, take a moment to reflect that plenty of people disagree with some of your life choices too. Perpetuating that cycle of judgement doesn't help anyone to improve themselves, their community, or the world.

This is so true, and it reminds me of one reason why I'm a big fan of the Frugalwoods blog (www.frugalwoods.com).  Judging others really only reflects poorly on ourselves -- why do we feel the need to criticize or judge someone's decisions when we have not been in their shoes?  I almost slipped into this mentality about the 13 kids -- for me, that's insane, and for a lot of people who don't have their shit together I'd think it was irresponsible.  But I don't share the same religious beliefs as these people do -- and anyway, hey, the fact that they've managed to thrive as a family and raise kids with strong financial independence and knowledge levels is commendable regardless of what you think of their family planning beliefs.  These two Frugalwoods posts are some of my favorites:
http://www.frugalwoods.com/2015/06/17/why-i-wont-judge-your-spending/
http://www.frugalwoods.com/2015/02/16/the-privilege-of-pursuing-financial-independence/
 

Coming from a farm town, people clasping their pearls over this is amusing.  The community I live in still has some families in the 7-10 range, and they probably make much less than this family.  Kids CAN be expensive, if you think they all need expensive private school, an entire basement strewn with toys, and designer clothes.  The reality is kids don't need that stuff. 
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: Pigeon on January 03, 2017, 11:48:08 AM
I just feel that having 13 kids is  unethical and selfish given the environmental impact. Even if the kids live a fairly low consumption lifestyle by American standards, they will still have a huge environmental impact compared to a traditional 2-kid family.

I agree with this, plus there are longer term implications.  Thirteen kids will likely themselves produce far more offspring in subsequent generations than say two kids.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: mathlete on January 03, 2017, 11:58:40 AM
Actually, in some towns, there is a market for used baby/kid clothes. I lived in a town in Oregon with a resale store,  and I live in a town in Idaho with a resale store. The amusing part is that it's the same store--the person moved from Oregon to Idaho and moved her business, too. She did a great business in Oregon and does a great business in Idaho. I'm sure there must be other baby clothing retail stores in other areas.

Learn something new every day!
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: mathlete on January 03, 2017, 12:01:33 PM
I'm rich and I just accepted $500 three days ago at Christmas. I redirected it straight to my bank account. Better call the FI Police.

Didn't say it affected financial independence. Just said that I couldn't wrap my head around it.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: kite on January 04, 2017, 06:37:59 AM
Fascinating back & forth over the ethics of large families.

I come from a family almost as large, and it's jarring to hear or read folks debate the merits of my very existence merely because my parents had six other children before they had me.  The irony: it's always people who purport to be anti-religion who are judging some religious folks for what they've done with their genitals.  That's peculiar.
Oh, they'll dress it up in nonsense about the environment and societal costs, but their arguments miss the mark.  One of them Duggar kids, or me, or one from this family of 13 begins life with a far lower carbon footprint than the typical only child.  Carpool, hand-me-downs and the necessity of frugality and economies of scale make it so.  My folks launched a baseball team full of productive, taxpayers citizens without using the public school system.  A system they supported, and all 9 of their home owning offspring continue to support through real estate taxes.  The pyramid scheme of our social security system requires far more workers paying in than what the typical, Western family produces in offspring.  Economies where reproduction hovered at or below replacement rates have felt this most acutely, and have had to offer incentives to people having babies to avert a crisis.  You don't have to have any kids, but it's a good thing others did, especially those who stuck around to raise them.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: big_slacker on January 04, 2017, 08:57:51 AM
I skipped all the ethics and judgment. No care if they get subsidized or blah.

But 13 fuckin kids, holy crap!

That poor mom, her body has to be wrecked from bearing that many children. Those poor both of them, that many kids basically means your life is kids. I guess that many doesn't happen by accident, a vasectomy is cheap, haha! You have to REALLY want to and like raising children to do something like that. Good for them if they enjoy it and good for making it work.

I'd want to jump in front of a bus most days, haha!
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: MrAlanBreck on January 04, 2017, 09:13:23 AM
I skipped all the ethics and judgment. No care if they get subsidized or blah.

But 13 fuckin kids, holy crap!

That poor mom, her body has to be wrecked from bearing that many children. Those poor both of them, that many kids basically means your life is kids.

Bach had many more than that.  I think he did something other than raise kids.

His wife was accomplished also:
https://infogalactic.com/info/Anna_Magdalena_Bach
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: big_slacker on January 04, 2017, 10:17:42 AM
I skipped all the ethics and judgment. No care if they get subsidized or blah.

But 13 fuckin kids, holy crap!

That poor mom, her body has to be wrecked from bearing that many children. Those poor both of them, that many kids basically means your life is kids.

Bach had many more than that.  I think he did something other than raise kids.

Yes, he also did his job which was also presumably his passion as well so that worked out well. :D
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: AMandM on January 04, 2017, 09:03:38 PM
I skipped all the ethics and judgment. No care if they get subsidized or blah.

But 13 fuckin kids, holy crap!

That poor mom, her body has to be wrecked from bearing that many children. Those poor both of them, that many kids basically means your life is kids. I guess that many doesn't happen by accident, a vasectomy is cheap, haha! You have to REALLY want to and like raising children to do something like that. Good for them if they enjoy it and good for making it work.

I'd want to jump in front of a bus most days, haha!

I know this family personally.  Yes, they love raising kids.  Like many large families, especially homeschoolers, they spend a lot of time together and enjoy each others' company.

For those who feel that they "got" too much, let me assure you that the article left out the many ways in which they "give" as well.  They volunteer time and labor to countless events, big and small, from raking an elderly neighbour's lawn to cleaning up after the church picnic.  They open their home for social, academic, and spiritual gatherings. They give hand-me-downs to others; last fall, Sam passed along to me a handmade solid wood cradle for my granddaughter.

And btw, her body is not a wreck.  She is way more fit than I am, and I have "only" seven kids!

Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: Prairie Stash on January 05, 2017, 08:38:36 AM
WTF? Pete is a "lapsed" engineer? Really? Makes me wonder how much of the Fatzinger's story got distorted while passing through the author's odd prism.
If they can walk to their walk and talk their talk, I'm thrilled for them. Life is what you make it and theirs certainly is interesting. Thanks for the link, Itt. Good read!
Lapsed is the correct term, its rarely used but its correct. At the age of 65 in my jurisdiction you can retire from Engineering, but not before. Its based on liability insurance rates and not personal circumstances. After 65 you can become a lifetime member of the governing body for Engineers, its an honourary title, meant to honour retirees for their lifetime contributions to society. However you still retain the option to work again, the lapsed means MMM has the option to do engineering work in the future if he wants.

Other reasons for a lapsed engineer include; pursuing full time education (masters, doctorate, MBA, Law etc.), parental leave, away from work to raise a family (that's Pete), retired and not eligible for Lifetime (too young), and disability leave. As MMM has indicated he might work in the future as a back up plan (unlikely) or if its interesting again.

The author may have got many things incorrect, but he nailed the lapsed.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: Bracken_Joy on January 05, 2017, 08:51:55 AM
WTF? Pete is a "lapsed" engineer? Really? Makes me wonder how much of the Fatzinger's story got distorted while passing through the author's odd prism.
If they can walk to their walk and talk their talk, I'm thrilled for them. Life is what you make it and theirs certainly is interesting. Thanks for the link, Itt. Good read!
Lapsed is the correct term, its rarely used but its correct. At the age of 65 in my jurisdiction you can retire from Engineering, but not before. Its based on liability insurance rates and not personal circumstances. After 65 you can become a lifetime member of the governing body for Engineers, its an honourary title, meant to honour retirees for their lifetime contributions to society. However you still retain the option to work again, the lapsed means MMM has the option to do engineering work in the future if he wants.

Other reasons for a lapsed engineer include; pursuing full time education (masters, doctorate, MBA, Law etc.), parental leave, away from work to raise a family (that's Pete), retired and not eligible for Lifetime (too young), and disability leave. As MMM has indicated he might work in the future as a back up plan (unlikely) or if its interesting again.

The author may have got many things incorrect, but he nailed the lapsed.

I believe this works the same in nursing- if you've let your license expire, but are still eligible to re-activate, and are not a Retired Nurse, then you are a lapsed nurse. (Although it looks like some states use inactive vs retired, but that confuses me, because Oregon uses inactive for someone *with* a license but who doesn't work currently from what I understand).
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: CloserToFree on January 07, 2017, 12:17:30 PM

I know this family personally.  Yes, they love raising kids.  Like many large families, especially homeschoolers, they spend a lot of time together and enjoy each others' company.

For those who feel that they "got" too much, let me assure you that the article left out the many ways in which they "give" as well.  They volunteer time and labor to countless events, big and small, from raking an elderly neighbour's lawn to cleaning up after the church picnic.  They open their home for social, academic, and spiritual gatherings. They give hand-me-downs to others; last fall, Sam passed along to me a handmade solid wood cradle for my granddaughter.

Thanks for chiming in, fascinating that you know this family.  I'm not surprised at all to hear that the family is giving of their time and possessions -- they struck me in the article as good members of their community, but it's nice to hear from someone with firsthand knowledge.
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: With This Herring on January 08, 2017, 02:01:33 PM
I skipped all the ethics and judgment. No care if they get subsidized or blah.

But 13 fuckin kids, holy crap!

That poor mom, her body has to be wrecked from bearing that many children. Those poor both of them, that many kids basically means your life is kids. I guess that many doesn't happen by accident, a vasectomy is cheap, haha! You have to REALLY want to and like raising children to do something like that. Good for them if they enjoy it and good for making it work.

I'd want to jump in front of a bus most days, haha!

I know this family personally.  Yes, they love raising kids.  Like many large families, especially homeschoolers, they spend a lot of time together and enjoy each others' company.

For those who feel that they "got" too much, let me assure you that the article left out the many ways in which they "give" as well.  They volunteer time and labor to countless events, big and small, from raking an elderly neighbour's lawn to cleaning up after the church picnic.  They open their home for social, academic, and spiritual gatherings. They give hand-me-downs to others; last fall, Sam passed along to me a handmade solid wood cradle for my granddaughter.

And btw, her body is not a wreck.  She is way more fit than I am, and I have "only" seven kids!

Thank you for the added perspective.  The article did overdo the "look what some people gave them a couple of times!"

Thirteen kids is definitely their happy choice.  A lot of people say, "Look at the results of no contraceptives," but NFP (Natural Family Planning) is encouraged by the Catholic Church and is effective in timing children.  My parents only had the four of us, which seems a rather small number, but one of my mother's cousins had twelve.  :)

Do you know if either of them is a member of the forum?
Title: Re: Couple w/13 kids, $100k income, college funds, no debt, planning to ER
Post by: Joel on January 08, 2017, 04:13:17 PM
I can't believe how many judgmental responses there are in this thread. Good for the family.