Author Topic: Future planning and declining population  (Read 3912 times)

RetiredAt63

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2025, 04:34:46 PM »
People may migrate both ways, but urbanisation has been a one way street for a long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Urban_and_rural_populations_in_the_United_States_(US_Census_Bureau_(1790_to_2010)),_OWID.svg

"How you goin to keep them down on the farm when they've seen gay Paree"? That's  WWI vintage.

reeshau

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2025, 04:40:38 PM »
I don't dispute the graph.  (Which goes until 2010)   But the chart in the same article shows a decline from 2010 to 2020, across regions.

2Cent

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2025, 01:54:34 AM »
I don't dispute the graph.  (Which goes until 2010)   But the chart in the same article shows a decline from 2010 to 2020, across regions.
I think 2020 is a bad datapoint due to covid. Unfortunately remote working is not allowed for most jobs, even things like software jobs that could very well be remote. Also, unemployment is low in small towns, but are those jobs the family sustaining types, or things like waitress. And how many people move to the city if they can't find a job in their small town.

Anyway, if moving to a LCOL area I would find a place with a good amount of young people and a good amount of wealth. If either are missing it's future will likely be decline. And if it has some connectivity to a larger city, you have an easy fallback place in case it doesn't work out. But really, as we get old it will be more important than ever to have a support network around, so I think most people should try to be close to that, where ever that is.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2025, 04:47:24 AM »
I don't dispute the graph.  (Which goes until 2010)   But the chart in the same article shows a decline from 2010 to 2020, across regions.
I think 2020 is a bad datapoint due to covid. Unfortunately remote working is not allowed for most jobs, even things like software jobs that could very well be remote. Also, unemployment is low in small towns, but are those jobs the family sustaining types, or things like waitress. And how many people move to the city if they can't find a job in their small town.

Anyway, if moving to a LCOL area I would find a place with a good amount of young people and a good amount of wealth. If either are missing it's future will likely be decline. And if it has some connectivity to a larger city, you have an easy fallback place in case it doesn't work out. But really, as we get old it will be more important than ever to have a support network around, so I think most people should try to be close to that, where ever that is.

What I've noticed as all my friends age is that we start  wanting to be closer to things.  Grocery store, library, post office, doctor and dentist, and hospitals.

Yes hospitals.  Bad enough to be there for something, worse when it is a long drive.  Obvious at my age are the knee and hip replacements,  and gall bladders coming out, but how long a drive are you ok with heading off to a colonoscopy?

Also, some small towns are very insular. You can have lived there 10 years and still feel like a newcomer.

classicrando

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2025, 05:35:23 AM »
Things you said in response to me.

Responses to your responses, but I'm not going to quote everything.  People can scroll back up to follow the conversation. ;p

1.  HCOL vs. LCOL housing.

Regarding the 2007-2012 deflation, how many of the HCOL areas did not recover their value and then eventually exceed it?  How many LCOL are still bumping along around the same general values they had back then?  Also, even if you are personally fine, do you really want to live in a town as a well-off remote worker after the local mine or factory closed and laid everyone off?  That probably depends on what roots you have in the area.

2.  Massive industries in small towns and rural areas.

You are totally correct that these are things that exist.  But it's contextual.  Companies build data centers and server farms in small towns, for example, but the high-paying jobs that those facilities are built to support aren't frequently located there.  There are fewer places where automobiles are designed versus where they are assembled.  There are fewer tech startups in small towns in Wyoming than in big cities on the coasts.  But sure, this can totally work depending on someone's industry or career flexibilty.

3.  Commutes, Pay Cuts, and Social opportunities.

We might be envisioning two different things in what constitutes moving to a small town.  I'm envisioning communities with 20 - 50k people, tops.  A lot of the excellent old homes I find for sale are in towns much smaller that that even.  The people that I've known that have come from small towns are talking about places with 5k or less people, and a common complaint is that there was nothing to do in those places outside of sex and/or drugs.  And possibly football.  Forget about finding a kickass roller derby league or HEMA group, or not attending one of the local churches or high school football game.

NYC vs. Des Moines is going to be a specific personal evaluation.  But Des Moines is outside of my personal definition of "small town".  But by "giving your partner a commute or a pay cut", I meant they either had to commute back to the HCOL area their job is located, or accept a lower-paying verson of the same job in the LCOL area.  That's the definitional problem of LCOL areas; they pay LCOL salaries.  A remote worker with a great salary is really the primary sort of person that can do this sort of arbitrage without it just becoming a halve-my-expeses, halve-my-salary sort of thing.

4. Social Expectations and Regression

As others have touched on, some small towns can be really insular.  And you can't really know that or find that out until you move there, especially in a situation like I mentioned where you don't have any friends or family in the area, and you haven't moved there for a job as a new manager at the meat-processing plant or whatever.  Small towns tend to need someone to vouch for you in some capacity; you can just "be there" in a city for the most part.

And regarding regressing to failure, yeah, that is heavily influenced by culture and societal expectaions.  But it's also influenced by people's personal experiences in their youth.  If you didn't fit in with the other kids in middle or high school, for whatever reason, and you decided to work and study to get out and find people you can vibe with; that is a person that is never going to move back to a small town (or,  maybe, a low SES area is more accurate) willingly.  They will sacrifice the big home, the kids, and the work-life balance to not go back.  Because that will make them feel like the same failure that they view everyone who stayed as.  I have known quite a few people like this; usually they were the theater kids, or the queer kids, or the nerdy kids, or the atheist kids in their youth.  There wasn't room in a small town for them to be themselves.

The hinterlands have been emptying for over a century.  1920 was the first census where more than 50% of US citizens lived in cities, and as others posted it's an 80/20 split now.  I don't know the answer to my own question about who/how many people move(s) to a small town they have no prior connection to, but I do know that it stops me when considering potential places in the future.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2025, 07:15:55 AM »
The hinterlands have been emptying for over a century.  1920 was the first census where more than 50% of US citizens lived in cities, and as others posted it's an 80/20 split now.  I don't know the answer to my own question about who/how many people move(s) to a small town they have no prior connection to, but I do know that it stops me when considering potential places in the future.

For clarification, 80% of the US population now lives in what the Census Bureau considers an "Urban Area", but what they consider an "Urban Area" can be very different from what most people think of when they hear that term. They classify any location with at least 2000 housing units, or 5000 population to be an "Urban Area". By their standards, there are 2,613 "Urban Areas" in the US (not including Puerto Rico or the "Island Areas").

Here's the full list of "Urban Areas":

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/12/29/2022-28286/2020-census-qualifying-urban-areas-and-final-criteria-clarifications

The second Urban Area on the list is Abbeville, SC with a population of 4,940 and a land area of 4.9 sq miles. The number of Urban Areas that most people here would consider to be small towns is probably surprising.

This was an interesting read too. As of the 2020 Census, about 39% of Americans live in a city with a population over 50,000:
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/05/america-a-nation-of-small-towns.html#:~:text=Of%20the%20nation's%20328.2%20million,as%20of%20July%201%2C%202019.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2025, 07:48:24 AM by Paper Chaser »

roomtempmayo

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2025, 08:28:52 AM »
@Paper Chaser that's an interesting overview, but I suspect lots of places that are functionally suburbs/bedroom communities are getting classified as small towns.  Same for unincorporated areas, which are often exurban sprawl.  The percentage of Americans who live outside of the economic and services umbrella of a significant metro area is vanishingly small.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #57 on: June 10, 2025, 09:58:53 AM »
@Paper Chaser that's an interesting overview, but I suspect lots of places that are functionally suburbs/bedroom communities are getting classified as small towns.  Same for unincorporated areas, which are often exurban sprawl.  The percentage of Americans who live outside of the economic and services umbrella of a significant metro area is vanishingly small.

Yeah, but again a "Metro Area" covers a lot of ground, and can includes some pretty rural/sparsely populated spots.
Metro Areas per Census Bureau:


Urban Areas per Census Bureau:


When you hear "80% of the US population lives in an urban area", or "people are leaving the rural areas for urban areas", it makes it seem like people living a rural lifestyle are this tiny minority, or there's this huge shift in what people value or how they live their lives. But really, those "urban areas", or "Metro Areas" include a lot of people living a detached, rural lifestyle, even if they're being counted as living in a Metro Area or Urban Area. I don't think there's as much "fleeing the small towns to head to the big city" as is often shown or discussed. The small towns are just being reclassified due to proximity to big cities.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2025, 10:04:21 AM by Paper Chaser »

roomtempmayo

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #58 on: June 10, 2025, 10:44:37 AM »

When you hear "80% of the US population lives in an urban area", or "people are leaving the rural areas for urban areas", it makes it seem like people living a rural lifestyle are this tiny minority, or there's this huge shift in what people value or how they live their lives. But really, those "urban areas", or "Metro Areas" include a lot of people living a detached, rural lifestyle, even if they're being counted as living in a Metro Area or Urban Area. I don't think there's as much "fleeing the small towns to head to the big city" as is often shown or discussed. The small towns are just being reclassified due to proximity to big cities.

I think we are using the concept of "rural" differently.

To me, a rural place or small town is where people aren't commuting to a city for work or services.  The nearest Walmart is an hour+ away.  Having spent more than half my life living in places like that, they may as well be a different planet culturally and economically from a sparsely populated exurb.

There's some new literature on the growth of "rural identifying" suburbanites, which is fascinating.  They're basically people who live in a metro area, but think of themselves as culturally rural since they don't identify with urban culture.  Apparently it's super common.

classicrando

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2025, 10:58:51 AM »
@Paper Chaser  You can turn that analysis around as well and say that there are a bunch of people claiming to live a "rural, detached lifestyle" while being 20-30 minutes from a major international airport or state university, or as part of the endless suburban sprawl.

I think MMM had an article about how his ideal city was a relatively tight urban core, large enough to support all the things you'd want in a city, and surrounded by miles of farmland and wilderness before you reached the next point of civilization.  That seems like a pretty good designation between urban and rural. 

There are 53 cities within 30 miles of my home zip code.  In practice, you'd have a hard time telling where one starts and another ends without the signs.  And yet, some people will tell you that they live "out in the country" because their home sits on 2 acres.  I technically live in an unincorporated region of my county, and am part of no city.  A friend of mine's parents own a property nearby where they are legally allowed to keep horses.  Which in this specific case would be absurd.

Maybe this is like the old pornography definition, and you'll know a city or rural area when you see it?

ChpBstrd

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #60 on: June 10, 2025, 05:20:18 PM »
Yea, when talking about arbitrage opportunities, I think it only makes sense to compare LCOL with HCOL (or an incremental move to/from a MCOL area). That's because as mentioned above there are "urban" areas that involve horses and pastures, and there are "urban" areas with much lower costs than some "rural" areas. When we're talking about how to pay lower costs, save more, and live a higher consumption lifestyle, we're talking money, not the density of buildings and streets.

E.g. rural New Jersey will be a lot more expensive place to live than urban Mississippi.

A couple more notes:

1.  HCOL vs. LCOL housing.

Regarding the 2007-2012 deflation, how many of the HCOL areas did not recover their value and then eventually exceed it?  How many LCOL are still bumping along around the same general values they had back then?  Also, even if you are personally fine, do you really want to live in a town as a well-off remote worker after the local mine or factory closed and laid everyone off?  That probably depends on what roots you have in the area.
The RE might have done fine in the long run, but a lot of the people hit by the 2007-2012 deflation of HCOL areas did not recover. When they lost their jobs and couldn't find another, they were unable to sell their house for anything near as much as they paid, and were thus unable to move to pursue the jobs that were available. Then foreclosure happened and they lost all their home equity. In many cases, the value of this home equity - their down payment and all the principle payments made for a couple/few years - exceeded the entire value of a similar LCOL area home. Then, with their credit ruined, the foreclosed people were largely shut out of the RE market as it heated back up again.

There certainly are LCOL areas and rural/microtown areas that are dependent upon one industry or company. They exist. But in general any modern city of 20k people has a highly diversified local economy, with banks, medical facilities, transportation firms, utilities/energy, retail, restaurant, services, construction, recreation, etc. companies. And then each company offers accounting, HR, communications, marketing, IT, and other specialty support role jobs. West Virginia has a 28% lower unemployment rate than California, and they aren't all waitresses.
Quote
Companies build data centers and server farms in small towns, for example, but the high-paying jobs that those facilities are built to support aren't frequently located there.  There are fewer places where automobiles are designed versus where they are assembled.  There are fewer tech startups in small towns in Wyoming than in big cities on the coasts.  But sure, this can totally work depending on someone's industry or career flexibilty.
It kinda depends on what we mean by "high-paying" because these are such different economies. We could set the bar in a number of tangible ways, such as
  • "allows the employee to purchase a 2,000 square foot detached house in very good condition within 15 miles of work, while allowing the employee to save in 10 years enough money to send a kid to the state university" OR
  • "allows the employee to make lifestyle choices that enable a 70% savings rate"
By such standards, there's a good chance that small town Wyoming "pays" much more for any given job than Silicon Valley.
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... a common complaint is that there was nothing to do in those places outside of sex and/or drugs.  And possibly football.  Forget about finding a kickass roller derby league or HEMA group, or not attending one of the local churches or high school football game.
I picked a random LCOL dot on a map - Jefferson City, MO, population 43k. A quick search of meetup.com found dozens of non-church events and groups: https://www.meetup.com/find/?source=EVENTS&location=us--mo--Jefferson%20City

These included groups for writers, bicyclists, artists, dancers, tech nerds, sci fi nerds, tennis, environmentalists, toastmasters speakers, hikers, musicians and performers, hikers, etc. with several just plain social group meetups. I'm sure this is the tip of the iceberg; it's just one site. One would find more on FB, Nextdoor, etc.

Looks like the nearest roller derby team meets 43 minutes away in Hallsville, which is the time to get across town in a lot of bigger cities. This illustrates a common problem with comparing smaller places to bigger places; the time to travel vast distances can be very low, and so the amenities people routinely use can be spread over a very wide area.
Quote
But by "giving your partner a commute or a pay cut", I meant they either had to commute back to the HCOL area their job is located, or accept a lower-paying verson of the same job in the LCOL area.  That's the definitional problem of LCOL areas; they pay LCOL salaries.  A remote worker with a great salary is really the primary sort of person that can do this sort of arbitrage without it just becoming a halve-my-expeses, halve-my-salary sort of thing.
That's the crazy thing. The salary reduction in real terms occur when a person moves from a LCOL area to a HCOL area. We can do a little experiment using the Best Places Cost of Living Calculator and Salary.com. For the data below, I compared Los Angeles median salaries with Des Moines median salaries, and then adjusted the Des Moines salary up for what it would be like in LA. I.e. how much you'd have to earn in LA to live the DM lifestyle.

Job                               LA Salary             DM Salary             DM Salary Adjusted for LA's COL
Software Developer 2     $116,490             $103,090              $230,806
HR Generalist 2              $ 81,430             $ 71,758               $160,658
Reg. Nurse Pediatrics      $ 95,110             $ 84,210               $188,536

rocketpj

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #61 on: June 11, 2025, 08:26:55 AM »
We live in a small town that is a ferry ride away from a metropolis.  The pandemic meant a big influx of people from the city who were looking to live somewhere nicer while working at home, and meant we shifted from Low(er)COL to HCOL.  Not directly affected because we bought our home and our other property while it was LCOL, but it does mean the kids are less likely to live nearby.

Many people commute to the city, which here involves a ferry.  Often they stay overnight a couple of nights a week, which is hard on life IMO.

aloevera1

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #62 on: June 11, 2025, 08:56:25 AM »
I think the general discussion about world's declining population is much less valuable than the direct question of "What's going to happen in the area I live in?". Here, "the area" could be as big or as small as you'd like. By owning property, I have a vested interest in the city I live in. Is it going to balloon because people come from all over the country here? Is it going to be the next Detroit? Is the unemployment going to be huge because local industries die/move to robots/change in some other way? Is government policy going to create some crazy incentive that affects my area?

I am thinking about these types of questions. It affected my decision to buy property in a certain municipality. I just did not see that town as sufficiently future proof.

As for the impact on the stock markets... stocks are a risky asset. No one is going to guarantee amazing returns. No one is going to guarantee that the market will always go up. Even the long-term trend of market going up is just that... a trend. So I don't think there is a point in trying to protect from a very specific set of adverse circumstances. Namely,

1) Population declines
2) Remaining population is unable to consume as much as before
3) Companies cannot figure out what to do with 1 and 2

I can come up with other bad scenarios. What's the point though? 


roomtempmayo

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #63 on: June 11, 2025, 10:05:32 AM »
That's the crazy thing. The salary reduction in real terms occur when a person moves from a LCOL area to a HCOL area.

For some professions, yes, and for others, no.

Probably the most pronounced version of what you're describing is in medical specialties.  If you're a specialized surgeon who is willing to go to a regional health system in outstate Kansas, the comp can be 2+x what it is in Denver for similar work because they have to pay to get people to come and stay in the middle of the wheat fields.  In academia it's less pronounced but still there: salaries for run of the mill teaching positions are pretty comparable regardless of cost of living, with rich rural places like Colgate or Williams paying significantly more than a job at, say, CUNY.  So, yeah, not everyone is better off in cities.

The place where it doesn't work is for the top end of just about any profession.  Big law firms, tech companies, Fortune 500/100 companies, flagship universities, et cetera: if you have the chops to land a spot there, you'll often be better off at their home base that's usually in a HCOL area.

The problem is when those of us who are just bit players (myself included) start thinking we should act as if we're in the profession's top end by going to a HCOL area when really that ship sailed a decade ago.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #64 on: June 11, 2025, 10:57:57 AM »
That's the crazy thing. The salary reduction in real terms occur when a person moves from a LCOL area to a HCOL area.
For some professions, yes, and for others, no.

Probably the most pronounced version of what you're describing is in medical specialties.  If you're a specialized surgeon who is willing to go to a regional health system in outstate Kansas, the comp can be 2+x what it is in Denver for similar work because they have to pay to get people to come and stay in the middle of the wheat fields.  In academia it's less pronounced but still there: salaries for run of the mill teaching positions are pretty comparable regardless of cost of living, with rich rural places like Colgate or Williams paying significantly more than a job at, say, CUNY.  So, yeah, not everyone is better off in cities.

The place where it doesn't work is for the top end of just about any profession.  Big law firms, tech companies, Fortune 500/100 companies, flagship universities, et cetera: if you have the chops to land a spot there, you'll often be better off at their home base that's usually in a HCOL area.

The problem is when those of us who are just bit players (myself included) start thinking we should act as if we're in the profession's top end by going to a HCOL area when really that ship sailed a decade ago.
There may be few corporate CEOs who live in LCOL areas (IDK, citation needed I guess), but in the "real" terms I'm talking about - quality/luxury of life, savings rate, time to FIRE - I've met "bubbas" running small HVAC companies with ten employees who live in bigger houses with more garages, more luxury cars, and bigger swimming pools than those CEO's in HCOL areas who oversee thousands of employees.

Yes, in nominal terms, the CEO's earn many times more money, and in nominal terms their 2,500sf skyscraper penthouse is worth many times more than bubba's 3,000sf McMansion. But in real terms bubba has an equally luxurious lifestyle, aside from the cultural value of doing the same things rich people in HCOL areas are doing, like buying art from Sotheby's or paying $150 for a tiny plate of food only to eat one bite so that others can watch.

You're absolutely right that those of us who are "bit players" errored in trying to chase the top performers in nominal terms into HCOL areas. People on that treadmill are competing with one another for a very narrow lifestyle vision, trying to out-earn the rapidly escalating costs by working longer and longer hours, sometimes not starting families, etc. It's like a romance, and I don't know how long it can last.

classicrando

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #65 on: June 12, 2025, 10:01:29 AM »
@ChpBstrd I just want to say I appreciate and enjoy this conversation.

1. RE vs. people

Yes, you're correct that a lot of people didn't make it through that time period unscathed.  I admittedly was not thinking about them in the context of this conversation.  I was more in the mindset of recent history in my area, where anyone that bought a house between 2016-2020 has like a 3% fixed mortgage and has seen the value of their house nearly double.  But that feels like maybe more of a function of higher priced homes in general.  I see more 500k homes turn into 800k homes than I see 200k homes turn into 500k homes (or 320k, if you want to match the percentage increase).  That's probably also selection bias though, so...shrug?  I mean, I do browse a lot of small town homes for sale and check the sale histories as well.  And I see a lot of homes that last sold 10-20 years ago for like $150k sitting on the market for 200 days at 225k after a price reduction.

The jobs and diversified economy thing is location and individual dependent.  If you are a small university professor and your department or funding gets cut, you just need to move.  You're probably not going to transition into becoming a utility worker or a nurse.  This happened to a friend of mine who was a professor at a small university in rural (small town?) Tennessee.  Now they're at a small university in rural (small town?) Alaska and complaining about the dating pool, so I'm not sure they've learned this lesson yet. :p

2. "high-paying" jobs, bar setting, and things to do

Those are valid points.  But this also goes back to individual desires, career plans, and in some cases remote work opportunity.  If someone's career trajectory involves working for a big-name tech company, law firm, advertising house, financial firm, or movie studio, you probably need to go to the cities where those things are located.  Some people also do not want big houses or kids and do not put a premium on the ability to have those things; but if you want more accessible amenities, networking, communities that match their specific demographics*, and less car-dependence then those things tend to come with unavoidable premiums.

On the meetup and things to do angle, I know my brain is stuck in a mental image of much smaller towns.  I have cousins that live in towns of less than 1000 people, and friends that grew up in towns of less than 5000.  I visited an ecovillage that was 13 miles outside of a town of 4000 people, in a county that is 75% Mennonite.  I have been in the general vicinity of Jefferson City, MO though, which is amusing to me that you picked it as an example.  This was several years ago, but I remember I had a hard time maintaining consistent cell coverage once we were outside of St. Louis, so I don't think I could've checked Meetup for activities. ;)

Anyway though, if you've used Meetup for any length of time, you know that just because an event is posted doesn't mean that it's going to happen.  A 50% show-up-to-sign-up ratio is considered fantastic.  Also, I've been to niche meetup groups where the vibe was off, and the nice thing was that I could just go to a different meetup group next time and not be guaranteed to run into all the same people.

You're correct about the travel distance tolerance of urban vs. rural though.  My personal max travel distance for an ordinary bi-weekly errand or event is about 15 miles, and I'll grumble if it's over about half that.  Anything farther away needs special planning and coordination ("we're gonna do this thing at the place, on this day, at this time, so everyone plan accordingly").  I wouldn't go to yoga or pottery if I had to drive 43 minutes to do it.

3. Real terms salary

I actually mostly agree with you, but again my personal mental anec-data got in the way.  My sister and her family went from a M/HCOL area to a VHCOL area, and their salary increases and promotion opportunities quickly more than made up for it.


*What would you personally say to someone that objected to entertaining this sort of geographic arbitrage because it required too much effort to locate a place with a sufficiently large population of their specific ethnicity, sexual orientation, or educational background, and they could name several large cities where they knew they could locate such communities without any difficulty?

ChpBstrd

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #66 on: June 12, 2025, 12:38:02 PM »
I was more in the mindset of recent history in my area, where anyone that bought a house between 2016-2020 has like a 3% fixed mortgage and has seen the value of their house nearly double.  But that feels like maybe more of a function of higher priced homes in general.  I see more 500k homes turn into 800k homes than I see 200k homes turn into 500k homes (or 320k, if you want to match the percentage increase).  That's probably also selection bias though, so...shrug?  I mean, I do browse a lot of small town homes for sale and check the sale histories as well.  And I see a lot of homes that last sold 10-20 years ago for like $150k sitting on the market for 200 days at 225k after a price reduction.
I think you're onto something. Stories about a $500k house doubling in value over X years are a lot more attention-grabbing than a $150k house doubling in value over the same time. Getting a 500% return on a $100k leveraged down payment within 3-4 years is eye-popping.

We have to also keep in mind that the alternatives to housing have also gone up. The person who spends less on housing can, in theory, put more into investments. QQQ for example, has doubled since July 2020. That was also an excellent time to buy a house because values were about to skyrocket. But who came out ahead? The person who sank their $100k into a down payment on a HCOL area house, or the person who spent $30k on a LCOL house down payment and put the remaining $70k into stocks? (also factor in the LCOL area has lower costs all around, lower taxes, insurance, HOA fees, etc which add up to several thousand per year)

In either case, whichever person had the higher savings rate is closer to FIRE, excluding the possibility of geographic arbitration. Allowing for geo arbitration, the person who leveraged to the max on a HCOL house between 2020 and 2021 and is willing to sell it and go LCOL wins the ribbon.
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The jobs and diversified economy thing is location and individual dependent.  If you are a small university professor and your department or funding gets cut, you just need to move.  You're probably not going to transition into becoming a utility worker or a nurse.  This happened to a friend of mine who was a professor at a small university in rural (small town?) Tennessee.  Now they're at a small university in rural (small town?) Alaska and complaining about the dating pool, so I'm not sure they've learned this lesson yet. :p
This might be an issue with hyper-specialization in general. If a professor of French literature or a consultant who specializes in the botany of orchids loses their job in New York City, they will still have a hard time finding an equivalent job without moving. So yes, if you are a hyper-specialist I suppose the best answer is to always be prepared to move, regardless of where you are. This situation particularly affects academe, where sub-specialties are multiplying like bacteria on dog shit, and where there is absolutely no chance of crossing from one niche to another.

In business, however, I suspect there is more wiggle room in LCOL areas or smaller metros, due to reduced competition. They might say, "I see you have mechanical engineering experience with threading titanium rods. I imagine those skills transfer to designing anchors for plastics, right?"
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If someone's career trajectory involves working for a big-name tech company, law firm, advertising house, financial firm, or movie studio, you probably need to go to the cities where those things are located.  Some people also do not want big houses or kids and do not put a premium on the ability to have those things; but if you want more accessible amenities, networking, communities that match their specific demographics*, and less car-dependence then those things tend to come with unavoidable premiums.
It's fair to ask why a person would choose to want to work specifically for big-name firms in HCOL areas. Getting what one wants in that case might also come with a lifetime of struggling to afford the cost of living in a cutthroat rat race. Choosing to do something else professionally might come with a lifetime of surplus savings, financial stability, and early retirement. Is the satisfaction of the work itself supposed to make up for the costs? What if one is wrong about that?

If you live in a LCOL area and are OK with living in a tiny condo or home, not having kids, and not having multiple pets and cars, then you'll get rich extremely quick. It's going against the grain, but a 75% savings rate is completely possible living that way.
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You're correct about the travel distance tolerance of urban vs. rural though.  My personal max travel distance for an ordinary bi-weekly errand or event is about 15 miles, and I'll grumble if it's over about half that.  Anything farther away needs special planning and coordination ("we're gonna do this thing at the place, on this day, at this time, so everyone plan accordingly").  I wouldn't go to yoga or pottery if I had to drive 43 minutes to do it.
Yea, rural and small town people will happily drive 50 miles to visit a friend, go to a specific restaurant, visit a particular doctor, or buy a specific thing. The thing is, it requires them 45 minutes to drive that far, because there is little traffic and few stop lights. The person traversing from the Gold Coast side of Chicago will spend the same 45 minutes getting to White Sox stadium less than 10 miles away. So, without getting into Einstein, physical distance is less relevant than time distance.
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*What would you personally say to someone that objected to entertaining this sort of geographic arbitrage because it required too much effort to locate a place with a sufficiently large population of their specific ethnicity, sexual orientation, or educational background, and they could name several large cities where they knew they could locate such communities without any difficulty?
The barrier here is the "where they knew" part. How many thousands of people comprise the LGBTQ community in Indianapolis, IN? 18,000? 40,000? 60,000? That information is hard to get. You'd have to search for it. How many Asian grocery stores exist in Kansas City, MO or Knoxville, TN? Lots and lots actually, but many people would assume "none". Is there an Ethiopian restaurant in Montgomery, AL? A professional association of civil engineers in Wichita, KS? Modern art collectives in Springfield, IL?

There's also a question of how much is "enough". If Syracuse, NY has 8 Irish pubs (I didn't look) then is that enough to scratch your Irish pub itch, or do you need a place with at least 12? If two thousand people showed up to a Pride Parade in Little Rock, AR, is that enough? If Athens, GA has only 7 dive bars where you can catch a rock show any given weekend, is that disappointing? Did we even know that Fort Smith, AR (pop. 89k) has its own orchestra?

People just have to look. Although I've been lazy in asking the questions above without researching them all, the point is plane tickets and car rentals are cheap, and the internet is even cheaper. It's odd that in this information age, people are still thinking of small cities with 50k people as if they're 1930s farming villages.

There are non-diverse places with low educational attainment and little to do. But they're relatively rare. The threshold for cosmopolitanism is a lot lower than most people think, unless they've being very picky or demanding the existence of many times more resources than they could ever enjoy.

jeninco

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #67 on: June 12, 2025, 02:44:00 PM »
It's sweet that you guys (and I'm pretty sure you're mostly, if not entirely male) are completely forgetting various tidbits that factor into decision-making about where to live such as "do I have basic human rights in this state, or will I be forced to bleed to death/imprisoned if I miscarry" and "will my kids be taken away from our family because we respect their fundamental identity."  I know a number of people who live in my fairly HCOL town in a not-very-LCOL state because they're basically political refugees from places like Idaho. And I know several more who have declined to move to, say, Texas, because the laws there would at least penalize their families and at most result in their being prosecuted.

So it's not entirely about geographic arbitrage -- if you are a LGBTQ+ person, or a female person, or have a child who identifies as non-binary (or not-cisgendered) there are probably entire swaths of the South and midwest that you're not going to move to. I'm personally a big fan of living in places where I'm entitled to the basic human right of physical autonomy.

Sometimes places are higher cost of living because more people want to move there -- for completely rational reasons.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #68 on: June 12, 2025, 03:21:24 PM »
It's sweet that you guys (and I'm pretty sure you're mostly, if not entirely male) are completely forgetting various tidbits that factor into decision-making about where to live such as "do I have basic human rights in this state, or will I be forced to bleed to death/imprisoned if I miscarry" and "will my kids be taken away from our family because we respect their fundamental identity."  I know a number of people who live in my fairly HCOL town in a not-very-LCOL state because they're basically political refugees from places like Idaho. And I know several more who have declined to move to, say, Texas, because the laws there would at least penalize their families and at most result in their being prosecuted.

So it's not entirely about geographic arbitrage -- if you are a LGBTQ+ person, or a female person, or have a child who identifies as non-binary (or not-cisgendered) there are probably entire swaths of the South and midwest that you're not going to move to. I'm personally a big fan of living in places where I'm entitled to the basic human right of physical autonomy.

Sometimes places are higher cost of living because more people want to move there -- for completely rational reasons.
Fair enough, but the HCOL and LCOL area distinctions existed long before many of these issues rose to the forefront. I.e. in the era of Roe v. Wade, the Voting Rights Act, a balanced Supreme Court, etc.

Similarly, I suspect the cost of living difference will persist even when abortion is outlawed nationwide, LGBTQ people are persecuted by nationwide laws, and racial discrimination is forced by federal laws. In the future that's coming, there won't be much legal difference between living in Mississippi and California, even if popular opinions differ.

Do I expect the cost of living to equalize as a result? Not at all. It's being driven by something other than politics, or else prices would swing with elections.

classicrando

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #69 on: Today at 09:35:25 AM »
*What would you personally say to someone that objected to entertaining this sort of geographic arbitrage because it required too much effort to locate a place with a sufficiently large population of their specific ethnicity, sexual orientation, or educational background, and they could name several large cities where they knew they could locate such communities without any difficulty?
The barrier here is the "where they knew" part. How many thousands of people comprise the LGBTQ community in Indianapolis, IN? 18,000? 40,000? 60,000? That information is hard to get. You'd have to search for it. How many Asian grocery stores exist in Kansas City, MO or Knoxville, TN? Lots and lots actually, but many people would assume "none". Is there an Ethiopian restaurant in Montgomery, AL? A professional association of civil engineers in Wichita, KS? Modern art collectives in Springfield, IL?

There's also a question of how much is "enough". If Syracuse, NY has 8 Irish pubs (I didn't look) then is that enough to scratch your Irish pub itch, or do you need a place with at least 12? If two thousand people showed up to a Pride Parade in Little Rock, AR, is that enough? If Athens, GA has only 7 dive bars where you can catch a rock show any given weekend, is that disappointing? Did we even know that Fort Smith, AR (pop. 89k) has its own orchestra?

People just have to look. Although I've been lazy in asking the questions above without researching them all, the point is plane tickets and car rentals are cheap, and the internet is even cheaper. It's odd that in this information age, people are still thinking of small cities with 50k people as if they're 1930s farming villages.

There are non-diverse places with low educational attainment and little to do. But they're relatively rare. The threshold for cosmopolitanism is a lot lower than most people think, unless they've being very picky or demanding the existence of many times more resources than they could ever enjoy.

In some cases it is weirdly hard to search for accurate information about locations, as you generally have to pick a location and then investigat that specifically.  I'm actually finding AI to be specifically helpful in this, e.g. "Show me all cities in the US with populations between 100k and 500k that have average yearly temps between 30 and 70 degrees F."  And Realtor.com has recently (within the past year, I think) implemented a function where you can see where airports, gas stations, grocery stores, entertainment venues, and so on are lotated in relation to the property you're looking at, which is nice. 

But we are still talking about wildly different levels of "small towns".  You keep mostly citing places with 200k+ in the city proper (700k+ in the metro), and I keep talking about places like Storm Lake, IA (pop. 11k) (which is actually the most ethnically diverse city in the state) or Elmira, NY (pop. 27k)  Speaking of the ethnic communities, the aforementioned Storm Lake would be great if you looking for a Laotian, Micronesian, or Hispanic community, but you probably would be out of luck looking for a Lebanese or Polish one.  The cosmopolitanism threshold you reference is multi-faceted and individualistic, and is not necessarily satisfied by a specific number of bars, grocery stores, museums, or presence of an orchestra.

If people aren't considering some of the population centers you're mentioning, it likely also has something to do with the states in which they are located, as @jeninco points out.  St. Louis, MO or Cincinatti, OH may be fantastic places to live, but when you've got the Republican governments of those states actively overturning the will of the people there in regards to abortion protections, then I don't blame anyone not drunk on the trad-wife kool-aid refusing to move there.  I wouldn't live in Gilead even if the streets were paved in gold and there were jobs and houses and zero crime for everyone.  In the dystopian future we're headed towards, the difference between a liberal and conservative region is more apt to be the likelihood that someone will Anne Frank a person in their attic, or jury nullification whatever bullshit charges the State has you on trial for.

As an aside, hey don't have the program anymore, but a few years ago Syracuse, NY was offering $20K to remote workers to buy a house and move there.  You can look these programs up on Make My Move.  Indiana, Kansas, Michigan, Kentucky, and Arkansas feature heavily.



It's sweet that you guys (and I'm pretty sure you're mostly, if not entirely male) are completely forgetting various tidbits that factor into decision-making about where to live such as "do I have basic human rights in this state, or will I be forced to bleed to death/imprisoned if I miscarry" and "will my kids be taken away from our family because we respect their fundamental identity."  I know a number of people who live in my fairly HCOL town in a not-very-LCOL state because they're basically political refugees from places like Idaho. And I know several more who have declined to move to, say, Texas, because the laws there would at least penalize their families and at most result in their being prosecuted.

So it's not entirely about geographic arbitrage -- if you are a LGBTQ+ person, or a female person, or have a child who identifies as non-binary (or not-cisgendered) there are probably entire swaths of the South and midwest that you're not going to move to. I'm personally a big fan of living in places where I'm entitled to the basic human right of physical autonomy.

Sometimes places are higher cost of living because more people want to move there -- for completely rational reasons.

You are correct in your assessment.  I was overlooking this aspect entirely because my partner and I are each incapable of siring/bearing children, don't want any, and have none to begin with.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Future planning and declining population
« Reply #70 on: Today at 01:18:19 PM »
In some cases it is weirdly hard to search for accurate information about locations, as you generally have to pick a location and then investigat that specifically.  I'm actually finding AI to be specifically helpful in this, e.g. "Show me all cities in the US with populations between 100k and 500k that have average yearly temps between 30 and 70 degrees F."  And Realtor.com has recently (within the past year, I think) implemented a function where you can see where airports, gas stations, grocery stores, entertainment venues, and so on are lotated in relation to the property you're looking at, which is nice. 
You're right about the information challenges. In theory, Google Maps, Google street view, the city's website, and some basic internet searching should be able to paint a realistic view of a place. In practice, in 100% of the times when I've heavily researched a place before traveling there, the impressions I got from my sleuthing were to a large degree wrong.

So for lack of direct experience, I suspect we're falling back on brand names and stereotypes. You'll have more fun if you go to a theater in New York City than you'll have if you go to a theater in Lexington, KY, right? Or is that really true? Or is it subjective (i.e. you'll nitpick the Lexington show, but not the NYC show)? People who have never explored both options have strong opinions*.

There is a similar issue with education. Zillow displays school rankings as a single number, as if it doesn't matter if you read to your small child every night, do flash cards, spend quality time with them, ensure homework gets done, give them music lessons, enrolled them in pre-K, or encourage them to get engaged in school extracurricular activities or AP classes. Or as if it doesn't matter if the averages are pulled down by kids of low socioeconomic status, whose usually-lower performance has little to nothing to do with your kid's situation. Nope, everyone seems to believe they will receive that one number no matter what, as if education is a product bought off a shelf.

*Exception: It is factual that the rotel-based nacho dip they're so proud of in Texas is not the real way to do it. People anywhere else, including Mexico, use white queso fresca, which is much better. :)

So if we can't even properly evaluate a town or city in current times, I doubt the internet has much to teach us about the title to this thread: "future planning and declining population".
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But we are still talking about wildly different levels of "small towns". You keep mostly citing places with 200k+ in the city proper (700k+ in the metro), and I keep talking about places like Storm Lake, IA (pop. 11k) (which is actually the most ethnically diverse city in the state) or Elmira, NY (pop. 27k)  Speaking of the ethnic communities, the aforementioned Storm Lake would be great if you looking for a Laotian, Micronesian, or Hispanic community, but you probably would be out of luck looking for a Lebanese or Polish one.  The cosmopolitanism threshold you reference is multi-faceted and individualistic, and is not necessarily satisfied by a specific number of bars, grocery stores, museums, or presence of an orchestra.
Yes, there are LCOL options that are tiny towns and there are LCOL options that are sprawling megapolis cities like Kansas City or Memphis or Detroit. It's tough to talk about both at the same time. If you talk about small towns, people say no that won't work for me because I need the amenities and culture of big cities. If you talk about big cities, people question whether there are enough professional jobs, or if those <$250k houses are in crime war zones, or if the museums are good enough (uh, how often do you visit museums?).

Let's just say our lucky current situation is that we're able to choose any lifestyle we want, from ultra-rural to ultra-urban, and still get it as a LCOL area. At any level of city size, it is currently possible to find places with plentiful jobs, affordable lifestyles, quality education, and the ability to save up massive nest eggs. I wonder if this crazy arbitrage opportunity exists due to information asymmetries which might be resolved due to cultural or technological changes.

In the dystopian future we're headed towards, the difference between a liberal and conservative region is more apt to be the likelihood that someone will Anne Frank a person in their attic, or jury nullification whatever bullshit charges the State has you on trial for.
There is value in the neighborly solidarity you're writing about, but {gestures at the regime's intentionally provoked issues in LA} it's also likely the regime will see HCOL cities as the epicenter of challenges to its power, and crack down on those places first, making them a convenient scapegoat. Creating problems and oppressing people in California or New York makes more sense to the regime than creating problems and oppression for its supporters in Texas and Florida. Better to provoke chaos in Gavin Newsom's cities than Ron DeSantis'. 

When an authoritarian regime takes control over a whole country, it is historically rare for the winning move to be to "pour one's resources into real estate in the areas with the highest concentration of liberals". In what part of Syria would you have been willing to live over the past 15 years? In what part of Russia or Belarus are LGBTQ people safe from persecution? In Venezuela, even the hotbeds of opposition to the Chavez/Maduro regime have descended into abject poverty, crime, and oppression. In El Salvador, no male person anywhere in the country is safe from being rounded up and detained for life without trial - about 6% already have been. Is there any free neighborhood in all of Cuba? Is Hong Kong really freer than mainland China?

In Nazi Germany, support for the party was always weakest on the western side of the country, but that was obviously not a safe place to be. In fact, the Frank family fled from Frankfurt, in Western Germany, to Amsterdam, an even more liberal city. The parallel for our purposes would be fleeing California for Vancouver, BC. Their fatal error was to not flee even further, as hard as that might have been given language barriers, financial limitations, immigration restrictions, and small children.

The point is, if there is a chance the U.S. will end up as an authoritarian regime rather than enduring another 4 years of Trumpian abuse of power, then people in HCOL areas need to sell their properties, set up offshore accounts in a different currency, get their passport in order, and start learning a foreign language ASAP. That was the winning move in all of the examples I've ever found, and the earlier it was acted upon the better.

And if you can't do that, it still makes sense to move to LCOL areas, freeing up money to move offshore. Find allies and pool the resources needed to help each other if things get bad. The saying "if you wouldn't buy it again you should sell it" comes to mind. If you were already established in Chile or Ireland or Australia, would you leave there to buy a $650,000 house in a HCOL area of Trump's United States?