What would be your living cost breakdown such as done in this article?

[joshuagraham_xyz]

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/08/what-its-like-to-live-on-38000-in-charlotte-north-carolina.html

I'll start.  Since I travel abroad for most of the year, I'll include the cost when I'm at home or away (presume always if not specified):

Housing: $150 (also when away)

Own super cheap home outright, so no note.  Homeowners is about $120/mo.  Seem to average $30/mo on maintenance that I have to pay someone to do, like roof repair for a leak, or a plumbing leak.

Food: $400 (also when away)

I spend about the same as this woman, although I don't spend it on organic veggies but rather on meat such as New York Strip at Walmart or Cajun sausage, and eat out about a third of the time as take-out from a local Mexican "family restaurant", sandwich shop, or the occasional chicken shack.  Eat out all the time at cafeterias or street food when away for about the same amount.

Beer: $120 (also when away)

I'll knock out about 3 6-packs of microbrew a month week. :-)

Transportation: $125 (only when home)

Have a beater car with no note.  Minimum liability car insurance is $50.  I seem to fill up (premium) once a month, so that is $35.  Maintenance on the car averages about $40.  I'll consider last year's New Year's Eve gunshot that took out both the front & back window to be a fluke.  (There were some bad element folks that had rented down the street last year, but they've been kicked out.)

Subscriptions & Memberships: $0

My exercise routine is just walking around the neighborhood or doing some free weights exercises or pushups, if not spent on working on my house (which I did a lot the last month).

Business Expenses: $0

NOTE:  What is this woman doing?  Giving away her product?  A business expense should be balanced by business *revenue*.

Utilities: $100 (only $25 when away, which is the baseline charge for gas & electric, which are both a PITA to get hooked up, so I keep it hooked up when away)

Internet: $15 (average $5 when away)

PcsForPeople.net hotspot service eligible for folks with less than 200% AGI.

Computer Hardware: $40

Seem to need a new notebook rig every 3 years (I get the high-powered HP Power Pavillion) and a new hard drive every year.

Computer Software: $0

LOL, who pays for any software these days?

Stuff (anything that is a thing, not computer hardware, and doesn't go down the gut): $100

Vitamins/Supplements: $35

$15 of this is for a natural sleep-aid supplement.

Health care:  $5

ACA Medicaid expansion, and this is the amount of co-pay for Rx.

Dental care: $80 (recently), $0 (going forward, hopefully)

Over the last few years, I seem to have a yearly issue with something like my implant or getting new crowns on natural teeth.  I think I only have one more bottom molar that isn't crowned.  Have reconstructions on the back upper molars.  Hopefully, my teeth have progressed past the maintenance schedule.  Medicaid expansion pays for regular cleaning and enough for the few cavities I might have - and with the teeth that used to get the cavities being non-natural, they should be occurring even less.

Travel: $400

This is the cost of an intercontinental flight once a year ($850, after including ground transportation at home and any layover stay), rent of about $400/mo, and ski resort tickets of $800/yr (the place I go has an expensive season pass, and so it's cheaper to just pay the daily rack rate).

Hobbies:  $200

Hopefully this will go down as the reconstructions I am doing on my hobbies will be finished and I won't be buying parts anymore.

[simmias]

You don't pay property tax? Or registration/inspection fees on your car? Donations and/or gifts? Phone?

[Bloop Bloop]

Living expenses
Food/groceries/eating out: $1100*
Clothes: $60*
Strata fees: $400
Council rates: $80
Electricity: $90
Water: $90
Mandatory medicare levy + mandatory private health insurance: $475
Travel (average): $800*

Investment expenses
Mortgage interest $1300
Landlord's insurance $90
Water bill: $80
Land tax: $120

Business expenses
Rent: $1400
Insurance: $220
Accounting/legal: $250
Professional registration/membership: $50
Secretary/admin: $1300
Internet: $50
Phone: $20
Car registration: $70*
Car insurance: $100*
Car maintenance (average): $40*
Car consumables (average): $40*
Fuel: $80*
Computer hardware (average): $60
Phone hardware (average): $35*

Total living = approx. $3100 a month

Total business/investment = approx. $5400 a month
Net business/investment (i.e. after-tax amount) = approx. $2900 a month

Total net expenses = $6000 a month

Figures are for two of us. Most of our expenses are fixed and cannot be changed. I have marked with an asterisk the expenses which are optional/lifestyle related. Everything else is fixed. Welcome to living in a HCOL area.

[joshuagraham_xyz]

You don't pay property tax? Or registration/inspection fees on your car? Donations and/or gifts? Phone?

Yes, I forgot about these, but they're not much:

- property tax - about $17/mo

- car registration - $1.50/mo

- car brake tag - $1/mo

- phone - internet VOIP line is $2/mo; mobile phone is FREE as part of Medicaid expansion :-)

- I give gifts of wisdom and my presence :-)

[Zikoris]

Ours is for two people since I don't feel like dividing everything in half to get my portion like she did. And it's 2019 averages.

$845 - Housing. Rent + insurance averaged out.
$814 - Travel. We go to Europe and Asia every year and also do a lot of shorter trips within North America.
$320 - Food. 80% groceries, plus some snacks, restaurants, and our annual Costco membership.
$97 - Shopping. About half electronics and video games, the rest stuff like clothing, kitchen stuff, and other random things.
$96 - Two cell phones + internet bill.
$72 - Cat expenses
$52 - Health. Dentist, meds, fitness stuff, etc.
$38 - Personal care.
$37 - Transportation. Public transit basically, plus bike gear if we need it.
$34 - Entertainment.

= $2405, which gets us a great lifestyle in Vancouver, including a nice downtown apartment and frequent overseas travel.

[Freedomin5]

Ours is for two adults and one child.

$0 - Housing. Included in employment contract
$120 - Utilities - water, gas, electricity
$6 - Phone
$24 - Internet
$10 - Transportation. Bus/subway fare.
$20 - Bottled water. Water from tap is not potable.
$500 - Food - groceries and eating out (includes household goods like toilet paper and toothpaste)
$500 - Life insurance
$0 - Health insurance. Included in employment contract
$25 - Clothing
$0 - Travel. Flights included in employment contract. We live for free with family when we travel.
$62 - Professional fees/license. Necessary for work.

$1267 Total, to live in a multi-million dollar apartment close to work and school in a VHCOL city.

If you include tithing, then we are at $1767 a month.

[Bloop Bloop]

$1267 Total, to live in a multi-million dollar apartment close to work and school in a VHCOL city.

Some of the figures you quoted (like $10 / month for transportation) don't align with a VHCOL city. To give you an idea of what I think a VHCOL city represents, $10 in my city would not even cover a day's worth of public transport, let alone a month's. If I wanted to take any public transport from my home to my parents' home (about 20km/35 mins away), and back, then that would cost $13.

[bluebelle]

You don't pay property tax? Or registration/inspection fees on your car? Donations and/or gifts? Phone?

Yes, I forgot about these, but they're not much:

- property tax - about $17/mo

- car registration - $1.50/mo

- car brake tag - $1/mo

- phone - internet VOIP line is $2/mo; mobile phone is FREE as part of Medicaid expansion :-)

- I give gifts of wisdom and my presence :-)

since you mention medicaid, I presume you're in the US.....Property tax of $204/year?   WTF, is that even possible?  Car registration of $18/year

[Freedomin5]

$1267 Total, to live in a multi-million dollar apartment close to work and school in a VHCOL city.

Some of the figures you quoted (like $10 / month for transportation) don't align with a VHCOL city. To give you an idea of what I think a VHCOL city represents, $10 in my city would not even cover a day's worth of public transport, let alone a month's. If I wanted to take any public transport from my home to my parents' home (about 20km/35 mins away), and back, then that would cost $13.

We live walking distance to school, work, playground, grocery store, medical clinic, dentist, etc. DH's work provides a free shuttle bus. So we rarely use paid transportation. We're usually walking, biking, or on a scooter. Most of the places we want to go/need to go can be reached on foot or by bike. We also live in a city of 25 million people where most people use public transportation, so the transportation system is well-funded by fares (due to high usage) and likely also by the government.

[Bloop Bloop]

That still doesn't sound like a VHCOL city.  Sounds like Shanghai, which (other than for property) is about half the price of Melbourne or Sydney, and one-third the average earnings.

[Zikoris]

That still doesn't sound like a VHCOL city.  Sounds like Shanghai, which (other than for property) is about half the price of Melbourne or Sydney, and one-third the average earnings.

To me, it sounds like you don't want to accept that there are tons of people in FIRE circles who figure out ways to make things highly efficient, and manage to live in very expensive places for very little. I live in what's considered an expensive city, and also often spend about $10/month for my personal transit since I walk everywhere instead (my boyfriend uses a bit more since he has friends who live further out).

[Bloop Bloop]

That still doesn't sound like a VHCOL city.  Sounds like Shanghai, which (other than for property) is about half the price of Melbourne or Sydney, and one-third the average earnings.

To me, it sounds like you don't want to accept that there are tons of people in FIRE circles who figure out ways to make things highly efficient, and manage to live in very expensive places for very little. I live in what's considered an expensive city, and also often spend about $10/month for my personal transit since I walk everywhere instead (my boyfriend uses a bit more since he has friends who live further out).

It really depends on whether you consider Shanghai to be a VHCOL city. It's not about what I want to accept or not accept.

I walk to work too, and my commuting costs are nil. That doesn't change the fact that according to this site most things other than property prices are much more expensive: utilities 2.5x, transport 6x, groceries 1.3x

https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/interactives/costofliving/compare/shanghai-vs-melbourne/

[Zikoris]

That still doesn't sound like a VHCOL city.  Sounds like Shanghai, which (other than for property) is about half the price of Melbourne or Sydney, and one-third the average earnings.

To me, it sounds like you don't want to accept that there are tons of people in FIRE circles who figure out ways to make things highly efficient, and manage to live in very expensive places for very little. I live in what's considered an expensive city, and also often spend about $10/month for my personal transit since I walk everywhere instead (my boyfriend uses a bit more since he has friends who live further out).

It really depends on whether you consider Shanghai to be a VHCOL city. It's not about what I want to accept or not accept.

I walk to work too, and my commuting costs are nil. That doesn't change the fact that according to this site most things other than property prices are much more expensive: utilities 2.5x, transport 6x, groceries 1.3x

https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/interactives/costofliving/compare/shanghai-vs-melbourne/

I don't know about Shanghai since I've spent a total of three days there, but I live in a city that seems comparable to Melbourne according to that sight (Vancouver) and hardly spend anything, and know a ton of people doing the same in lots of other expensive cities. A person spending little in an expensive place doesn't mean the place isn't actually expensive, it just means that person is good at FIRE.

[Photograph 51]

First I want to comment on the budget of the woman in the article:
Rent $580- this is probably fine.  It's a one bedroom apartment and she is living with someone else.  not a lot of room to scale down.
Food $400- this is insane.  She could cut this by more than half.  Being vegan should make a food budget cheaper- lentils are just not that expensive.  She can still eat healthy for a lot less by focusing on eating a lot of beans, brown rice, oatmeal, onions, carrots, cabbage, sweet potatoes, bananas, and suchlike.
Transportation $170- not bad.  She might be able to drive less, but I can't know that without more specifics.
Subscriptions and memberships $120- Surely there is a cheaper gym membership than $100.  Activities like hiking, running, biking, and working out at home based on YouTube videos are pretty much free.
Pet Food and maintenance $80- no one said she had to have a pet

Now for my expenses, based on my totals for 2019, divided by 12:
Charitable Contributions- $530
Transportation: $259- I had some major car repairs because my car is old.  I have to drive too much- I'm working on finding a closer job.
Health Insurance $103
Utilities $64
Home Repairs $62- I was working on a lot of projects that really needed to get done
Professional expenses $60- I needed to renew licenses and such.  I am trying to convince my employer to pay for this kind of thing
Property taxes- $52 (this includes trash pick up)
Food- $48
Other- $41

[Photograph 51]

You don't pay property tax? Or registration/inspection fees on your car? Donations and/or gifts? Phone?

Yes, I forgot about these, but they're not much:

- property tax - about $17/mo

- car registration - $1.50/mo

- car brake tag - $1/mo

- phone - internet VOIP line is $2/mo; mobile phone is FREE as part of Medicaid expansion :-)

- I give gifts of wisdom and my presence :-)

since you mention medicaid, I presume you're in the US.....Property tax of $204/year?   WTF, is that even possible?  Car registration of $18/year

I don't know about the original poster, but in the state where I live, a home owner can file an application yearly for a property tax deduction if they are low income enough.  The property taxes are then scaled according to income and can be as low as $0.  This program was created to help elderly people to avoid losing their homes due to not being able to afford the taxes.  I found the program to be helpful while in graduate school.  Since the person who posted this mentions being on Medicaid, perhaps he/she is also taking advantage of a similar program.

The woman in the article is not thinking right.  She is willing to spend for personal training, but not to get medical care if an accident happens?  That's just not smart.

[Hirondelle]

That still doesn't sound like a VHCOL city.  Sounds like Shanghai, which (other than for property) is about half the price of Melbourne or Sydney, and one-third the average earnings.

Yet, you live in a city with free public transport within the CBD, so if you manage your life around certain areas, you could totally consider it LCOL.

Everyone told me Australia would be so so so so expensive. It wasn't all that bad. I could now tell you that Melbourne can't be HCOL because it is cheaper than Amsterdam (I felt prices in AUD were our prices in EUR, which means it was 40% cheaper for me!), but so what? Why do you feel the need to call out someone's 'too low for a HCOL' transportation cost?

Shanghai/Beijing is HCOL, mostly driven by property prices but I'm sure car ownership is a pain too. Decent quality food ain't all that cheap either.

[PeterParker]

Yeah some people just want to turn this into a competition and not be completely honest I feel.

I also happen to walk to work, by coincidence --- company didn't pay for it, and I happened to eventually move nearby, but may change jobs soon.

Yeah if you're paying $24 a month for internet, you do NOT live in a VHCOL city.

That would be near impossible to find in the US, let alone a major city here, unless you were doing ultra ultra bargain bin internet shopping for the most rickety unusable service. Something that's unlikely to be the case, if you're living in a Mansion and making over 6 figures.

[Bloop Bloop]

That still doesn't sound like a VHCOL city.  Sounds like Shanghai, which (other than for property) is about half the price of Melbourne or Sydney, and one-third the average earnings.

Yet, you live in a city with free public transport within the CBD, so if you manage your life around certain areas, you could totally consider it LCOL.

Everyone told me Australia would be so so so so expensive. It wasn't all that bad. I could now tell you that Melbourne can't be HCOL because it is cheaper than Amsterdam (I felt prices in AUD were our prices in EUR, which means it was 40% cheaper for me!), but so what? Why do you feel the need to call out someone's 'too low for a HCOL' transportation cost?

Shanghai/Beijing is HCOL, mostly driven by property prices but I'm sure car ownership is a pain too. Decent quality food ain't all that cheap either.

It's not about calling out - it's about being honest about labelling. What you are doing is constructing a straw man out of my one example (about public transport) rather than looking at the other examples I provided. By the way, the poster called it a "VHCOL" city, not a HCOL city, so you need to be careful about what you impute to me.

[Zikoris]

Yeah some people just want to turn this into a competition and not be completely honest I feel.

I also happen to walk to work, by coincidence --- company didn't pay for it, and I happened to eventually move nearby, but may change jobs soon.

Yeah if you're paying $24 a month for internet, you do NOT live in a VHCOL city.

That would be near impossible to find in the US, let alone a major city here, unless you were doing ultra ultra bargain bin internet shopping for the most rickety unusable service. Something that's unlikely to be the case, if you're living in a Mansion and making over 6 figures.

By that logic there is literally no such thing as a VHCOL city, because I guarantee you, any city you can come up with, some smart person has figured out a way to live for cheaply. Any city.

[Hirondelle]

That still doesn't sound like a VHCOL city.  Sounds like Shanghai, which (other than for property) is about half the price of Melbourne or Sydney, and one-third the average earnings.

Yet, you live in a city with free public transport within the CBD, so if you manage your life around certain areas, you could totally consider it LCOL.

Everyone told me Australia would be so so so so expensive. It wasn't all that bad. I could now tell you that Melbourne can't be HCOL because it is cheaper than Amsterdam (I felt prices in AUD were our prices in EUR, which means it was 40% cheaper for me!), but so what? Why do you feel the need to call out someone's 'too low for a HCOL' transportation cost?

Shanghai/Beijing is HCOL, mostly driven by property prices but I'm sure car ownership is a pain too. Decent quality food ain't all that cheap either.

It's not about calling out - it's about being honest about labelling. What you are doing is constructing a straw man out of my one example (about public transport) rather than looking at the other examples I provided. By the way, the poster called it a "VHCOL" city, not a HCOL city, so you need to be careful about what you impute to me.

Okay, valid point about the VH vs H at the front; hadn't looked at the details.

Regarding one example: I did mention costs of car ownership and 'good quality food' (product dependent; Western hobbies like dairy and wine are expensive in China). Esp car ownership seems quite a bit more expensive. Numbers are derived from numbeo.com. Overall they state prices are only 22% lower (if not counting rent 30%) in Shanghai. Purchasing power is almost 50% lower in Shanghai.

ETA: I see you also used a COL calculator and you stated COL in Shanghai was half. Your calculator however states that Melbourne is 48% more expensive, which means costs are 2/3rd and purchasing power is half, which fits with the statements I made using the other calculator.

And that gets me to my pain point about the labeling, when would something be 'allowed' to be called HCOL/VHCOL? If you look from a cost of living vs earnings perspective, Shanghai is more HCOL. If you look from a within-country perspective, Shanghai is probably still more 'extreme' in COL compared to Melbourne (compared to nation-wide average of China resp Australia). If you wanna look at it from a whole world view it's getting very complicated and you may probably only call Switzerland, Norway, Iceland and maybe Luxembourg as the 'true' VHCOL places so everything else can be discounted?

Now I'd probably agree with you that Shanghai is more rather HCOL than VHCOL except on property prices and/or if you want to live a western lifestyle at all cost (car ownership and dairy/wine consuption being the easy examples). I just think it's weird that you call people out because your own city is more expensive. Melbourne is very far from being the most expensive city in the world (it ranks 102nd out of 444 on numbeo.com).

[DadJokes]

I wonder how they select people for those profiles.

And I wonder if those people have any idea how much public scrutiny they are opening themselves up to.

[Bloop Bloop]

Yes, I’d agree that Shanghai is HCOL. By that scale I’d call Melbourne VHCOL. I’d also agree that if you look at typical costs versus typical national earnings, Shanghai is way more of an outlier than Melbourne. However, I get the sense that no one in this thread is earning a typical Chinese wage and the poster is an ex-pat stationed in the city for work, which makes the question of COL vs wages less relevant.

Perhaps I am just salty that my fixed costs here in Melbourne are so high - even with the benefit of a few hundred dollars per year saved from having free public transport within a small grid!