Author Topic: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???  (Read 28959 times)

beltim

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #250 on: May 03, 2020, 04:56:19 PM »
No offense, but IMO you are paranoid.

Except they aren't, given that we're in the middle of a global infectious disease pandemic. You seem poorly informed.

Again, it seems you too may be paranoid.  And I mean this in a very respectful manner.  The vast vast majority of people infected will be totally fine.  If you think you are personally vulnerable then you can take precautions that match your beliefs.

Sure, like most diseases, including ones that wreaked havoc until we developed vaccines or treatments.  COVID-19 has a similar case fatality rate to smallpox, mumps, whooping cough, and anthrax.  While true, it seems insane to say that smallpox and anthrax are no big deal because "the vast majority of people infected will be totally fine."

yakamashii

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #251 on: May 03, 2020, 06:18:36 PM »
ppl are wearing masks while grocery shopping. But they take it off immediately after leaving grocery.

This is what I do. To me, it makes sense to wear a mask in situations with a high probability of transmission, and not in others. This is the result of a synthesis of information I've heard from Japanese experts and experts from other countries, namely the US.

Upthread, someone mentioned nose breathing, maintaining distance, and wearing a mask as combining for a 99% prevention rate, and that any two of them together is 95%. I take that to mean that any one of those precautions adds just 4% when viewed as the third measure.

Here in Japan, they're telling people to avoid the three Cs--closed/poorly ventilated spaces, crowded places, and close-contact settings--and that the situation is particularly dangerous when they overlap, which I take to mean "not as dangerous when you have satisfied all three or two of the three."

These days, the store is the only place where my wife and I, who have not had more than 15 seconds of face time at once with anyone but each other since mid-March, enter the three Cs, so I mask up at the store and take it off as soon as we're away from the crowded area.

On our twice-daily walks, which we have altered specifically to avoid crowds, none of the three Cs comes up, so I don't mask up. We can't maintain 2 m of distance where it isn't possible, but we pass or hang back of people going the same direction, stay in constant motion, and don't touch anyone or anything with our hands. I think that accomplishes enough, and makes the mask and its +4% not worth the trouble (heat/fogging up glasses, as these walks are brisk).

If not wearing a mask at all times in public (which I take to mean anywhere outside the front door) is selfish, as some on this thread have claimed, then I think I'm making reasonable choices as to when to be selfish (plenty of distance, very low risk of transmission).

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #252 on: May 03, 2020, 06:59:35 PM »
ppl are wearing masks while grocery shopping. But they take it off immediately after leaving grocery.

This is what I do. To me, it makes sense to wear a mask in situations with a high probability of transmission, and not in others. This is the result of a synthesis of information I've heard from Japanese experts and experts from other countries, namely the US.

Upthread, someone mentioned nose breathing, maintaining distance, and wearing a mask as combining for a 99% prevention rate, and that any two of them together is 95%. I take that to mean that any one of those precautions adds just 4% when viewed as the third measure.

Here in Japan, they're telling people to avoid the three Cs--closed/poorly ventilated spaces, crowded places, and close-contact settings--and that the situation is particularly dangerous when they overlap, which I take to mean "not as dangerous when you have satisfied all three or two of the three."

These days, the store is the only place where my wife and I, who have not had more than 15 seconds of face time at once with anyone but each other since mid-March, enter the three Cs, so I mask up at the store and take it off as soon as we're away from the crowded area.

On our twice-daily walks, which we have altered specifically to avoid crowds, none of the three Cs comes up, so I don't mask up. We can't maintain 2 m of distance where it isn't possible, but we pass or hang back of people going the same direction, stay in constant motion, and don't touch anyone or anything with our hands. I think that accomplishes enough, and makes the mask and its +4% not worth the trouble (heat/fogging up glasses, as these walks are brisk).

If not wearing a mask at all times in public (which I take to mean anywhere outside the front door) is selfish, as some on this thread have claimed, then I think I'm making reasonable choices as to when to be selfish (plenty of distance, very low risk of transmission).

From what I've read, outdoor activity like walking, with proper distancing, doesn't really need a mask.  I wear mine in my apartment building because I dont know who just walked in an area I am now in, and at the grocery store.  Outside by myself, no.  I dont worry about others outside not wearing a mask if they are observing proper distancing.  Unfortunately the people not observing proper distancing, inside or outside, also tend to be the people not wearing masks.  Sigh.

OtherJen

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #253 on: May 03, 2020, 07:12:25 PM »
ppl are wearing masks while grocery shopping. But they take it off immediately after leaving grocery.

This is what I do. To me, it makes sense to wear a mask in situations with a high probability of transmission, and not in others. This is the result of a synthesis of information I've heard from Japanese experts and experts from other countries, namely the US.

Upthread, someone mentioned nose breathing, maintaining distance, and wearing a mask as combining for a 99% prevention rate, and that any two of them together is 95%. I take that to mean that any one of those precautions adds just 4% when viewed as the third measure.

Here in Japan, they're telling people to avoid the three Cs--closed/poorly ventilated spaces, crowded places, and close-contact settings--and that the situation is particularly dangerous when they overlap, which I take to mean "not as dangerous when you have satisfied all three or two of the three."

These days, the store is the only place where my wife and I, who have not had more than 15 seconds of face time at once with anyone but each other since mid-March, enter the three Cs, so I mask up at the store and take it off as soon as we're away from the crowded area.

On our twice-daily walks, which we have altered specifically to avoid crowds, none of the three Cs comes up, so I don't mask up. We can't maintain 2 m of distance where it isn't possible, but we pass or hang back of people going the same direction, stay in constant motion, and don't touch anyone or anything with our hands. I think that accomplishes enough, and makes the mask and its +4% not worth the trouble (heat/fogging up glasses, as these walks are brisk).

If not wearing a mask at all times in public (which I take to mean anywhere outside the front door) is selfish, as some on this thread have claimed, then I think I'm making reasonable choices as to when to be selfish (plenty of distance, very low risk of transmission).

From what I've read, outdoor activity like walking, with proper distancing, doesn't really need a mask.  I wear mine in my apartment building because I dont know who just walked in an area I am now in, and at the grocery store.  Outside by myself, no.  I dont worry about others outside not wearing a mask if they are observing proper distancing.  Unfortunately the people not observing proper distancing, inside or outside, also tend to be the people not wearing masks.  Sigh.

This. I don't wear a mask when outside if I'm not in close proximity to others.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #254 on: May 03, 2020, 07:13:21 PM »
I don't believe in masks at all, as with all health decisions and lifestyles they should be a personal choice for sure and not mandated by legislation.
What does "I don't believe in masks" actually mean?  I understand "I don't believe in God", but substituting "masks" for "God" doesn't seem to connect to any reality I know.

"Why aren't more American wearing masks in public."

I don't believe in making people wear masks in public.

So how do I make you keep 2 meters away from me?  Walk around with a 2 meter pole with a pointed end?  And do you flee in terror when I sneeze towards you (allergies)?  Or would you like me to be wearing a mask?  I'll be wearing one anyway (my old N95 one)  because of people like you.

No offense, but IMO you are paranoid.

Except they aren't, given that we're in the middle of a global infectious disease pandemic. You seem poorly informed.

Again, it seems you too may be paranoid.  And I mean this in a very respectful manner.  The vast vast majority of people infected will be totally fine.  If you think you are personally vulnerable then you can take precautions that match your beliefs.

You've missed the point. You may be personally fine dealing with an infection, however, the people who are infected spread it to others before they even realise they have it. Those others may not be fine. That's why everyone should behave like they have covid, to reduce transmission and deaths. It's not all about one person and that person's individual reaction to covid.

js82

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #255 on: May 03, 2020, 07:47:38 PM »

I understand you are trying to help other people by wearing a mask.  But if you are contagious and asymptomatic you may well have it on you hands as well as other places and spread it.  I am for helping other people but we are really playing whack a mole trying to contain this virus.

Hence the handwashing, hand sanitizer, and disinfectant wipes that I also use. It's really not that inconvenient to help other people. I am out of patience with people who claim otherwise.

You're proving my whack a mole theory with your list of tasks. We're isolating the very people who need to catch wild Covid, so that the vulnerable will be less likely to die. Let the healthy contract and build herd immunity.  Engineering a bubble society is a losing proposition.  Now every time the media says virus the paranoid will freak out.  The damage is already done, IMO. 

How many Covid success stories have you seen in the media?


You don't get it.  And here's why:

Effective herd immunity happens when R < 1.

R isn't a constant - it depends on the virus, it depends on the fraction of the population that is vulnerable to it, and on *our behavior*.  Anything we do to lower R independent of herd immunity effects, lowers the number of infections/deaths in the terminal state, because it lowers the fraction of the population that needs to be immune to achieve R < 1.  If there are things we can do that don't require closing businesses/fundamental aspects of our society but cut down on transmission the net result *WILL* be saving lives.

So stop being a selfish jerk and do the basic crap(masks, etc.) you can to reduce transmission.  Even if we can't contain the virus, we can still cut down on cases/deaths by following basic protocols that cost next to nothing, if people have the slightest shred of unselfishness.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2020, 07:59:43 PM by js82 »

Davnasty

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #256 on: May 04, 2020, 08:22:32 AM »
I don't believe in masks at all, as with all health decisions and lifestyles they should be a personal choice for sure and not mandated by legislation.

Are you also opposed to seat belt and vaccination laws?

No.  Seat belt laws are fine.  Vaccines IMO are probably fine and I have and would take them.  But people should still have a choice whether or not to comply with them. But the efficacy of masks and slippery paranoid psychological slope this virus is causing unnecessarily IMO is complete nonsense.

That's not how laws work

frugalnacho

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #257 on: May 04, 2020, 08:52:12 AM »
I feel like the mask law kind of parallels the no smoking law.  You have the right to spew coronavirus out of your face just like you have the right to spew tobacco smoke out of your face...but maybe not in the middle of a grocery store I'm in?

Jack0Life

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #258 on: May 04, 2020, 09:44:08 AM »
I don't believe in masks at all, as with all health decisions and lifestyles they should be a personal choice for sure and not mandated by legislation.
What does "I don't believe in masks" actually mean?  I understand "I don't believe in God", but substituting "masks" for "God" doesn't seem to connect to any reality I know.

"Why aren't more American wearing masks in public."

I don't believe in making people wear masks in public.

So how do I make you keep 2 meters away from me?  Walk around with a 2 meter pole with a pointed end?  And do you flee in terror when I sneeze towards you (allergies)?  Or would you like me to be wearing a mask?  I'll be wearing one anyway (my old N95 one)  because of people like you.

No offense, but IMO you are paranoid.

At this point of a pandemic, this has to be the most ignorant statement.
Over 3,500,000 infected and 250,000 deaths and we're still paranoid ??
If it wasn't for the worldwide lock down, the death tolls would skyrocket.

Jack0Life

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #259 on: May 04, 2020, 09:52:58 AM »
I feel like the mask law kind of parallels the no smoking law.  You have the right to spew coronavirus out of your face just like you have the right to spew tobacco smoke out of your face...but maybe not in the middle of a grocery store I'm in?

The smoking law is a great comparison.
We don't care what you do to your body, just don't inflict it on general public.

Kris

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #260 on: May 04, 2020, 10:00:32 AM »
I feel like the mask law kind of parallels the no smoking law.  You have the right to spew coronavirus out of your face just like you have the right to spew tobacco smoke out of your face...but maybe not in the middle of a grocery store I'm in?

The smoking law is a great comparison.
We don't care what you do to your body, just don't inflict it on general public.

Yeah, and this is why it sucks. Because smokers can sit in their own homes and suck cancer into their lungs, and as long as they live alone or with other smokers, they're only hurting themselves.

But what these anti-maskers are begging to do is precisely the opposite: to go out and spew in public.

mm1970

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #261 on: May 04, 2020, 10:22:10 AM »
I feel like the mask law kind of parallels the no smoking law.  You have the right to spew coronavirus out of your face just like you have the right to spew tobacco smoke out of your face...but maybe not in the middle of a grocery store I'm in?

The smoking law is a great comparison.
We don't care what you do to your body, just don't inflict it on general public.

Yeah, and this is why it sucks. Because smokers can sit in their own homes and suck cancer into their lungs, and as long as they live alone or with other smokers, they're only hurting themselves.

But what these anti-maskers are begging to do is precisely the opposite: to go out and spew in public.
It's mind boggling, and surprising that people that I would consider otherwise intelligent - cannot read and comprehend the reason for the mask.

If you want the economy open faster, mask wearing is how you do it.  Yes, you may have to wear a mask at the restaurant, at least whenever the server is near you, and the tables will all be 10' apart.  But maybe you can actually go have a beer and a burger.

KBecks

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #262 on: May 04, 2020, 10:51:22 AM »
I feel like the mask law kind of parallels the no smoking law.  You have the right to spew coronavirus out of your face just like you have the right to spew tobacco smoke out of your face...but maybe not in the middle of a grocery store I'm in?

The smoking law is a great comparison.
We don't care what you do to your body, just don't inflict it on general public.

Yeah, and this is why it sucks. Because smokers can sit in their own homes and suck cancer into their lungs, and as long as they live alone or with other smokers, they're only hurting themselves.

But what these anti-maskers are begging to do is precisely the opposite: to go out and spew in public.

Wait, are we really going to call people anti-maskers? LOL.

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #263 on: May 04, 2020, 10:58:40 AM »
Certainly sounds more polite than the equally fitting 'asshole' term that I was previously using.

Kris

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #264 on: May 04, 2020, 11:14:16 AM »
I feel like the mask law kind of parallels the no smoking law.  You have the right to spew coronavirus out of your face just like you have the right to spew tobacco smoke out of your face...but maybe not in the middle of a grocery store I'm in?

The smoking law is a great comparison.
We don't care what you do to your body, just don't inflict it on general public.

Yeah, and this is why it sucks. Because smokers can sit in their own homes and suck cancer into their lungs, and as long as they live alone or with other smokers, they're only hurting themselves.

But what these anti-maskers are begging to do is precisely the opposite: to go out and spew in public.

Wait, are we really going to call people anti-maskers? LOL.

I don't know if "we" are. But I am. What would you call this woman? Seems pretty appropriate to me.

https://www.nbc4i.com/news/local-news/nbc4-reporter-targeted-by-angry-protester-outside-ohio-statehouse/

Edit: And then, ya know, this...

https://apnews.com/9e9eadf6757e8ad1551030dacf6b3e29
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 03:58:21 PM by Kris »

alex753

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #265 on: May 04, 2020, 05:02:37 PM »
I can't respond to all there are too many of you. :) 

I'll concede that if I have contagious Covid and am asymptomatic I might save someones life by wearing a mask in closed and close quarters.  But I may also have actually killed people unknowingly already because I breathed a contagious flu virus on someone else that was vulnerable in the past.  So I guess from here on society should adopt permanent mask and social distancing laws. I just think this is a slippery slope, that is all. :/

I may be re-enacting Sisyphus here but IMO the total social cost of the response to the virus is not complete without looking at the unintended consequences.  There are costs to this shutdown not born by those who will die from Covid.  There will be additional suicides, domestic violence to women, children, and men. Bankrupted hospitals will not be open to save peoples lives from other conditions, etc.  On the other hand there will be fewer deaths from car accidents, etc.  You get the picture. 

And no, I am not a selfish jerk/asshole whatsoever.  Just pragmatic.

As a matter a fact, I strongly believe that if I was vulnerable it would be completely selfish to expect the world to shut down to save my own life. I would say Hey!  Go enjoy the sunny beach!  I'll quarantine and read a book or Netflix, or game, so that you can enjoy the beach today!; because days are scarce for even the healthy!

For an alternate viewpoint on the response to the virus check out this epidemiologists opinion: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGC5sGdz4kg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0Q4naYOYDw&feature=youtu.be

« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 05:17:10 PM by alex753 »

Kris

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #266 on: May 04, 2020, 05:17:10 PM »
I can't respond to all there are too many of you. :) 

I'll concede that if I have contagious Covid and am asymptomatic I might save someones life by wearing a mask in closed and close quarters.  But I may also have actually killed people unknowingly already because I breathed a contagious flu virus on someone else that was vulnerable in the past.  So I guess from here on society should adopt permanent mask and social distancing laws. I just think this is a slippery slope, that is all. :/

I may be re-enacting Sisyphus here but IMO the total social cost of the response to the virus is not complete without looking at the unintended consequences.  There are costs to this shutdown not born by those who will die from Covid.  There will be additional suicides, domestic violence to women, children, and men. Bankrupted hospitals will not be open to save peoples lives from other conditions, etc.  On the other hand there will be fewer deaths from car accidents, etc.  You get the picture. 

And no, I am not a selfish jerk/asshole whatsoever.  Just pragmatic.

As a matter a fact, I strongly believe that if I was vulnerable it would be completely selfish to expect the world to shut down to save my own life. I would say Hey!  Go enjoy the sunny beach!  I'll quarantine and read a book or Netflix, or game, so that you can enjoy the beach today!; because days are scarce for even the healthy!

For an alternate viewpoint on the response to the virus check out this epidemiologists opinion: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0Q4naYOYDw&feature=youtu.be

Lord. This may be the single post with the most logical fallacies I have ever witnessed.

alex753

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #267 on: May 04, 2020, 05:18:22 PM »
I can't respond to all there are too many of you. :) 

I'll concede that if I have contagious Covid and am asymptomatic I might save someones life by wearing a mask in closed and close quarters.  But I may also have actually killed people unknowingly already because I breathed a contagious flu virus on someone else that was vulnerable in the past.  So I guess from here on society should adopt permanent mask and social distancing laws. I just think this is a slippery slope, that is all. :/

I may be re-enacting Sisyphus here but IMO the total social cost of the response to the virus is not complete without looking at the unintended consequences.  There are costs to this shutdown not born by those who will die from Covid.  There will be additional suicides, domestic violence to women, children, and men. Bankrupted hospitals will not be open to save peoples lives from other conditions, etc.  On the other hand there will be fewer deaths from car accidents, etc.  You get the picture. 

And no, I am not a selfish jerk/asshole whatsoever.  Just pragmatic.

As a matter a fact, I strongly believe that if I was vulnerable it would be completely selfish to expect the world to shut down to save my own life. I would say Hey!  Go enjoy the sunny beach!  I'll quarantine and read a book or Netflix, or game, so that you can enjoy the beach today!; because days are scarce for even the healthy!

For an alternate viewpoint on the response to the virus check out this epidemiologists opinion: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0Q4naYOYDw&feature=youtu.be

Lord. This may be the single post with the most logical fallacies I have ever witnessed.

lol  Tell me more. :)

OtherJen

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #268 on: May 04, 2020, 05:23:01 PM »
I can't respond to all there are too many of you. :) 

I'll concede that if I have contagious Covid and am asymptomatic I might save someones life by wearing a mask in closed and close quarters.  But I may also have actually killed people unknowingly already because I breathed a contagious flu virus on someone else that was vulnerable in the past.  So I guess from here on society should adopt permanent mask and social distancing laws. I just think this is a slippery slope, that is all. :/

I may be re-enacting Sisyphus here but IMO the total social cost of the response to the virus is not complete without looking at the unintended consequences.  There are costs to this shutdown not born by those who will die from Covid.  There will be additional suicides, domestic violence to women, children, and men. Bankrupted hospitals will not be open to save peoples lives from other conditions, etc.  On the other hand there will be fewer deaths from car accidents, etc.  You get the picture. 

And no, I am not a selfish jerk/asshole whatsoever.  Just pragmatic.

As a matter a fact, I strongly believe that if I was vulnerable it would be completely selfish to expect the world to shut down to save my own life. I would say Hey!  Go enjoy the sunny beach!  I'll quarantine and read a book or Netflix, or game, so that you can enjoy the beach today!; because days are scarce for even the healthy!

For an alternate viewpoint on the response to the virus check out this epidemiologists opinion: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0Q4naYOYDw&feature=youtu.be

Lord. This may be the single post with the most logical fallacies I have ever witnessed.

Tl; dr: I don’t want to wear a mask while in a public indoor space, even if it might help someone else. I’m not selfish, you are!

maizefolk

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #269 on: May 04, 2020, 05:25:35 PM »
So I guess from here on society should adopt permanent mask and social distancing laws. I just think this is a slippery slope, that is all. :/

I may be re-enacting Sisyphus here but IMO the total social cost of the response to the virus is not complete without looking at the unintended consequences.  There are costs to this shutdown not born by those who will die from Covid.  There will be additional suicides, domestic violence to women, children, and men. Bankrupted hospitals will not be open to save peoples lives from other conditions, etc.  On the other hand there will be fewer deaths from car accidents, etc.  You get the picture. 

While the shutdown as a whole has unintended consequences, what unintended consequences, if any, would you argue results from wearing facemasks?

Arguing that facemasks as a slippery slope to further restrictions being imposed to fight the virus seems like a moot point when many harsher and more onerous restrictions are already in effect. Particularly if adopting face masks makes it possible to relax some of the restrictions on movement and work earlier, reducing the human suffering and economic harm that is an unavoidable side effect of the broader shutdown.

Raenia

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #270 on: May 04, 2020, 05:26:06 PM »
I can't respond to all there are too many of you. :) 

I'll concede that if I have contagious Covid and am asymptomatic I might save someones life by wearing a mask in closed and close quarters.  But I may also have actually killed people unknowingly already because I breathed a contagious flu virus on someone else that was vulnerable in the past.  So I guess from here on society should adopt permanent mask and social distancing laws. I just think this is a slippery slope, that is all. :/

I may be re-enacting Sisyphus here but IMO the total social cost of the response to the virus is not complete without looking at the unintended consequences.  There are costs to this shutdown not born by those who will die from Covid.  There will be additional suicides, domestic violence to women, children, and men. Bankrupted hospitals will not be open to save peoples lives from other conditions, etc.  On the other hand there will be fewer deaths from car accidents, etc.  You get the picture. 

How on earth does wearing a mask to the grocery store contribute to suicides, domestic violence, or bankrupting hospitals?  Indeed, if wearing a mask when going out allows businesses to open sooner, wouldn't that be only a good?

How does wearing a mask to the grocery store harm you in any way?  And you have admitted that doing so could save someone else's life, so you must be feeling you are significantly harmed to be ok with risking killing someone else.  After all, you are not a selfish jerk, so what is the significant cost to you that is caused by wearing a mask when going out?

alex753

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #271 on: May 04, 2020, 05:26:20 PM »
I can't respond to all there are too many of you. :) 

I'll concede that if I have contagious Covid and am asymptomatic I might save someones life by wearing a mask in closed and close quarters.  But I may also have actually killed people unknowingly already because I breathed a contagious flu virus on someone else that was vulnerable in the past.  So I guess from here on society should adopt permanent mask and social distancing laws. I just think this is a slippery slope, that is all. :/

I may be re-enacting Sisyphus here but IMO the total social cost of the response to the virus is not complete without looking at the unintended consequences.  There are costs to this shutdown not born by those who will die from Covid.  There will be additional suicides, domestic violence to women, children, and men. Bankrupted hospitals will not be open to save peoples lives from other conditions, etc.  On the other hand there will be fewer deaths from car accidents, etc.  You get the picture. 

And no, I am not a selfish jerk/asshole whatsoever.  Just pragmatic.

As a matter a fact, I strongly believe that if I was vulnerable it would be completely selfish to expect the world to shut down to save my own life. I would say Hey!  Go enjoy the sunny beach!  I'll quarantine and read a book or Netflix, or game, so that you can enjoy the beach today!; because days are scarce for even the healthy!

For an alternate viewpoint on the response to the virus check out this epidemiologists opinion: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0Q4naYOYDw&feature=youtu.be

Lord. This may be the single post with the most logical fallacies I have ever witnessed.

Tl; dr: I don’t want to wear a mask while in a public indoor space, even if it might help someone else. I’m not selfish, you are!

Re-read, you did correct me about one thing. :)

Kris

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #272 on: May 04, 2020, 05:30:08 PM »
I can't respond to all there are too many of you. :) 

I'll concede that if I have contagious Covid and am asymptomatic I might save someones life by wearing a mask in closed and close quarters.  But I may also have actually killed people unknowingly already because I breathed a contagious flu virus on someone else that was vulnerable in the past.  So I guess from here on society should adopt permanent mask and social distancing laws. I just think this is a slippery slope, that is all. :/

I may be re-enacting Sisyphus here but IMO the total social cost of the response to the virus is not complete without looking at the unintended consequences.  There are costs to this shutdown not born by those who will die from Covid.  There will be additional suicides, domestic violence to women, children, and men. Bankrupted hospitals will not be open to save peoples lives from other conditions, etc.  On the other hand there will be fewer deaths from car accidents, etc.  You get the picture. 

And no, I am not a selfish jerk/asshole whatsoever.  Just pragmatic.

As a matter a fact, I strongly believe that if I was vulnerable it would be completely selfish to expect the world to shut down to save my own life. I would say Hey!  Go enjoy the sunny beach!  I'll quarantine and read a book or Netflix, or game, so that you can enjoy the beach today!; because days are scarce for even the healthy!

For an alternate viewpoint on the response to the virus check out this epidemiologists opinion: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0Q4naYOYDw&feature=youtu.be

Lord. This may be the single post with the most logical fallacies I have ever witnessed.

lol  Tell me more. :)

Well. Look. I don't have the time to help you learn to argue better. But logical fallacies are errors in reasoning that undermine the logic of your argument. Just the first paragraph alone is a mess.

Your first argument: "I may have already infected someone with flu in the past, so..." is at the very least a red herring.

Then, "So I guess from here on society should adopt permanent mask and social distancing laws" is clearly a straw man argument, as it completely misrepresents any argument anyone is making and distorts it to absurdity.

And your last sentence of that paragraph, "I just think this is a slippery slope, that is all."

... Well...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope



« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 05:31:48 PM by Kris »

alex753

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #273 on: May 04, 2020, 05:54:13 PM »
I can't respond to all there are too many of you. :) 

I'll concede that if I have contagious Covid and am asymptomatic I might save someones life by wearing a mask in closed and close quarters.  But I may also have actually killed people unknowingly already because I breathed a contagious flu virus on someone else that was vulnerable in the past.  So I guess from here on society should adopt permanent mask and social distancing laws. I just think this is a slippery slope, that is all. :/

I may be re-enacting Sisyphus here but IMO the total social cost of the response to the virus is not complete without looking at the unintended consequences.  There are costs to this shutdown not born by those who will die from Covid.  There will be additional suicides, domestic violence to women, children, and men. Bankrupted hospitals will not be open to save peoples lives from other conditions, etc.  On the other hand there will be fewer deaths from car accidents, etc.  You get the picture. 

And no, I am not a selfish jerk/asshole whatsoever.  Just pragmatic.

As a matter a fact, I strongly believe that if I was vulnerable it would be completely selfish to expect the world to shut down to save my own life. I would say Hey!  Go enjoy the sunny beach!  I'll quarantine and read a book or Netflix, or game, so that you can enjoy the beach today!; because days are scarce for even the healthy!

For an alternate viewpoint on the response to the virus check out this epidemiologists opinion: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0Q4naYOYDw&feature=youtu.be

Lord. This may be the single post with the most logical fallacies I have ever witnessed.

lol  Tell me more. :)

Well. Look. I don't have the time to help you learn to argue better. But logical fallacies are errors in reasoning that undermine the logic of your argument. Just the first paragraph alone is a mess.

Your first argument: "I may have already infected someone with flu in the past, so..." is at the very least a red herring.

Then, "So I guess from here on society should adopt permanent mask and social distancing laws" is clearly a straw man argument, as it completely misrepresents any argument anyone is making and distorts it to absurdity.

And your last sentence of that paragraph, "I just think this is a slippery slope, that is all."

... Well...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

I know what logical fallacies are, just wanted you to put a little more work into your statement.  :)  I did take Philosophy 150.

So are you an authority on this?  If I believe your opinion on this could I be making the logical fallacy mistake: argumentum ad verecundiam?

In the strictest logical sense this cannot be debated about using precise statements. It is ok to think probabilisticly too. Like I have probably made someone else sick in the past. 

 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 05:56:16 PM by alex753 »

Kris

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #274 on: May 04, 2020, 06:47:32 PM »
I can't respond to all there are too many of you. :) 

I'll concede that if I have contagious Covid and am asymptomatic I might save someones life by wearing a mask in closed and close quarters.  But I may also have actually killed people unknowingly already because I breathed a contagious flu virus on someone else that was vulnerable in the past.  So I guess from here on society should adopt permanent mask and social distancing laws. I just think this is a slippery slope, that is all. :/

I may be re-enacting Sisyphus here but IMO the total social cost of the response to the virus is not complete without looking at the unintended consequences.  There are costs to this shutdown not born by those who will die from Covid.  There will be additional suicides, domestic violence to women, children, and men. Bankrupted hospitals will not be open to save peoples lives from other conditions, etc.  On the other hand there will be fewer deaths from car accidents, etc.  You get the picture. 

And no, I am not a selfish jerk/asshole whatsoever.  Just pragmatic.

As a matter a fact, I strongly believe that if I was vulnerable it would be completely selfish to expect the world to shut down to save my own life. I would say Hey!  Go enjoy the sunny beach!  I'll quarantine and read a book or Netflix, or game, so that you can enjoy the beach today!; because days are scarce for even the healthy!

For an alternate viewpoint on the response to the virus check out this epidemiologists opinion: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0Q4naYOYDw&feature=youtu.be

Lord. This may be the single post with the most logical fallacies I have ever witnessed.

lol  Tell me more. :)

Well. Look. I don't have the time to help you learn to argue better. But logical fallacies are errors in reasoning that undermine the logic of your argument. Just the first paragraph alone is a mess.

Your first argument: "I may have already infected someone with flu in the past, so..." is at the very least a red herring.

Then, "So I guess from here on society should adopt permanent mask and social distancing laws" is clearly a straw man argument, as it completely misrepresents any argument anyone is making and distorts it to absurdity.

And your last sentence of that paragraph, "I just think this is a slippery slope, that is all."

... Well...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

I know what logical fallacies are, just wanted you to put a little more work into your statement.  :)  I did take Philosophy 150.


It does not show.

alex753

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #275 on: May 04, 2020, 06:57:01 PM »
I can't respond to all there are too many of you. :) 

I'll concede that if I have contagious Covid and am asymptomatic I might save someones life by wearing a mask in closed and close quarters.  But I may also have actually killed people unknowingly already because I breathed a contagious flu virus on someone else that was vulnerable in the past.  So I guess from here on society should adopt permanent mask and social distancing laws. I just think this is a slippery slope, that is all. :/

I may be re-enacting Sisyphus here but IMO the total social cost of the response to the virus is not complete without looking at the unintended consequences.  There are costs to this shutdown not born by those who will die from Covid.  There will be additional suicides, domestic violence to women, children, and men. Bankrupted hospitals will not be open to save peoples lives from other conditions, etc.  On the other hand there will be fewer deaths from car accidents, etc.  You get the picture. 

And no, I am not a selfish jerk/asshole whatsoever.  Just pragmatic.

As a matter a fact, I strongly believe that if I was vulnerable it would be completely selfish to expect the world to shut down to save my own life. I would say Hey!  Go enjoy the sunny beach!  I'll quarantine and read a book or Netflix, or game, so that you can enjoy the beach today!; because days are scarce for even the healthy!

For an alternate viewpoint on the response to the virus check out this epidemiologists opinion: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0Q4naYOYDw&feature=youtu.be

Lord. This may be the single post with the most logical fallacies I have ever witnessed.

lol  Tell me more. :)

Well. Look. I don't have the time to help you learn to argue better. But logical fallacies are errors in reasoning that undermine the logic of your argument. Just the first paragraph alone is a mess.

Your first argument: "I may have already infected someone with flu in the past, so..." is at the very least a red herring.

Then, "So I guess from here on society should adopt permanent mask and social distancing laws" is clearly a straw man argument, as it completely misrepresents any argument anyone is making and distorts it to absurdity.

And your last sentence of that paragraph, "I just think this is a slippery slope, that is all."

... Well...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

I know what logical fallacies are, just wanted you to put a little more work into your statement.  :)  I did take Philosophy 150.


It does not show.

So are you an authority on this?  If I believe your opinion on this could I be making the logical fallacy mistake: argumentum ad verecundiam?

In the strictest logical sense this cannot be debated about using precise statements. It is ok to think probabilisticly too. Like I have probably made someone else sick in the past.

former player

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #276 on: May 05, 2020, 02:31:38 AM »
I can't respond to all there are too many of you. :) 

I'll concede that if I have contagious Covid and am asymptomatic I might save someones life by wearing a mask in closed and close quarters.  But I may also have actually killed people unknowingly already because I breathed a contagious flu virus on someone else that was vulnerable in the past.  So I guess from here on society should adopt permanent mask and social distancing laws. I just think this is a slippery slope, that is all. :/

I may be re-enacting Sisyphus here but IMO the total social cost of the response to the virus is not complete without looking at the unintended consequences.  There are costs to this shutdown not born by those who will die from Covid.  There will be additional suicides, domestic violence to women, children, and men. Bankrupted hospitals will not be open to save peoples lives from other conditions, etc.  On the other hand there will be fewer deaths from car accidents, etc.  You get the picture. 

And no, I am not a selfish jerk/asshole whatsoever.  Just pragmatic.

As a matter a fact, I strongly believe that if I was vulnerable it would be completely selfish to expect the world to shut down to save my own life. I would say Hey!  Go enjoy the sunny beach!  I'll quarantine and read a book or Netflix, or game, so that you can enjoy the beach today!; because days are scarce for even the healthy!

For an alternate viewpoint on the response to the virus check out this epidemiologists opinion: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0Q4naYOYDw&feature=youtu.be

Lord. This may be the single post with the most logical fallacies I have ever witnessed.

lol  Tell me more. :)

Well. Look. I don't have the time to help you learn to argue better. But logical fallacies are errors in reasoning that undermine the logic of your argument. Just the first paragraph alone is a mess.

Your first argument: "I may have already infected someone with flu in the past, so..." is at the very least a red herring.

Then, "So I guess from here on society should adopt permanent mask and social distancing laws" is clearly a straw man argument, as it completely misrepresents any argument anyone is making and distorts it to absurdity.

And your last sentence of that paragraph, "I just think this is a slippery slope, that is all."

... Well...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

I know what logical fallacies are, just wanted you to put a little more work into your statement.  :)  I did take Philosophy 150.


It does not show.
I think it does and gives philosophers the reputation they deserve.

T-Money$

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #277 on: May 05, 2020, 04:29:37 AM »
There is almost none, zero, scientific evidence that masks are effective at reducing SARS COVID-19 transmission.

https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-surgical-cotton-masks-blocking-sars-cov-2-controlled-comparison

https://www.livescience.com/are-face-masks-effective-reducing-coronavirus-spread.html

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.01.20049528v1

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2

There is some evidence that wearing them in a home with someone displaying symptoms may reduce infection of others, but even then at most the benefit is modest (like a ~1/5 reduction).

From the meta-analysis:

“The evidence is not sufficiently strong to support widespread use of facemasks as a protective measure against COVID-19.”

So to answer the question, more Americans probably aren’t wearing face masks in public because they are uncomfortable and ineffective, and they are likely doing nothing but appeasing people that continue to be irrational.

Worth the time (philosophical):

Thomas Sowell
The Conflict of Visions

https://youtu.be/OGvYqaxSPp4
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 04:33:17 AM by T-Money$ »

js82

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #278 on: May 05, 2020, 04:55:41 AM »
There is almost none, zero, scientific evidence that masks are effective at reducing SARS COVID-19 transmission.

https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-surgical-cotton-masks-blocking-sars-cov-2-controlled-comparison

https://www.livescience.com/are-face-masks-effective-reducing-coronavirus-spread.html

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.01.20049528v1

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2

There is some evidence that wearing them in a home with someone displaying symptoms may reduce infection of others, but even then at most the benefit is modest (like a ~1/5 reduction).

From the meta-analysis:

“The evidence is not sufficiently strong to support widespread use of facemasks as a protective measure against COVID-19.”

So to answer the question, more Americans probably aren’t wearing face masks in public because they are uncomfortable and ineffective, and they are likely doing nothing but appeasing people that continue to be irrational.

Worth the time (philosophical):

Thomas Sowell
The Conflict of Visions

https://youtu.be/OGvYqaxSPp4

Study #1 from your list doesn't support your argument, and might even contradict it.  In fact it's a total shit study if the authors' goal was to evaluate the effectiveness of masks.  If anything, the mask condition shows a net reduction/improvement in viral load on average compared to the no-mask condition, but the study was too damn small to have a chance of showing anything resembling statistical significance.

That's a "we did a study that didn't prove anything either way", not "masks don't work".

Article #2 in your list references articles #1/#4, so I won't address it independently.

Article #3 is your "1/5th reduction"

Article #4 from your list shows statistically significant improvment in two groups - coronavirus aerosols and flu droplets.  The other groups improve as well if you look at the raw data - but they fall short of statistical significance.  (That's not "doesn't work", that's "sample size wasn't large enough to answer the question".)

To summarize, you're wrong, because:

-None of the articles you claim to support your argument actually do.  And 2 clearly refute it.
-1 of the articles isn't research, just something referencing the other articles.

And you say that a 1/5th benefit in transmission is "modest".  That shows that you fundamentally do not understand how disease transmission works.  If you can cut disease transmission by 10 or 20%, the impact on the terminal number of infections(and hence deaths) is HUGE.  And this is for a low-cost method that doesn't require closing businesses or otherwise significantly disrupting people's lives.

If you're going to cite scientific research, at least read the damn articles and understand them before claiming they support your argument.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 05:31:10 AM by js82 »

partgypsy

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #279 on: May 05, 2020, 06:26:36 AM »
I can't remember if I posted this, but I am one of those people who was, I'm not going to wear a cotton face mask they are ineffective to, I am going to wear one in the situations where another poster mentioned, the 3 c's, basically indoor areas where you may have close contact with other people.
Even the holy grail N95 only stop 95% of particles.  Sadly my cousin who works as a nurse, just got the news that a coworker, friend and mentor just died from COVID 19. She was wearing ppe. So for those people who are complaining about wearing face covering please be aware there are people out there who are working 12 hour days, wearing heavy and restrictive ppe for long periods of time, and literally putting their life on the line during this epidemic. Please put your discomfort and inconvenience of wearing a mask in perspective.

The main argument is that we are trying lower R. Lowering R means a lower rate of infection which means our hospitals and health networks will not be overwhelmed, to avoid burnout and death of a generation of healthcare workers as well additional deaths from COVID AS WELL as additional deaths from all other sources because our healthcare system is overwhelmed/broken down. You know what also affects the economy? Dead bodies on the street.

Other than complete social isolation, masks in conjunction with social distancing (6 feet) and hand washing does lower R. It doesn't do it independently it works best when you combine. I fully admit that masks are a pain. I don't like wearing them. I only wear them when it is necessary (indoor conditions where is difficult maintaining distancing or walking through people's airspace). One of the reasons I'm complying is because I DO want us to start to open up the country, in a responsible fashion. Ideally I would have preferred opening up to happen when we have enough tests we can do tracing of positive cases. Our country is so far behind the curve regarding that, just not gonna happen. But if masking helps more places open in a relatively safe manner, that would be beneficial.

And arguing that if we wear masks now we will forever, is just silly. If so we'd still be wearing masks due to the 1918 flu epidemic.

Also not all masks are created equal. I was able to buy a mask off etsy that has 3 layers, plus a pocket to put basically a piece of shop rag in. It's no N95 but better than a cotton bandana esp if used properly.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 06:29:40 AM by partgypsy »

OtherJen

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #280 on: May 05, 2020, 06:30:31 AM »
There is almost none, zero, scientific evidence that masks are effective at reducing SARS COVID-19 transmission.

https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-surgical-cotton-masks-blocking-sars-cov-2-controlled-comparison

https://www.livescience.com/are-face-masks-effective-reducing-coronavirus-spread.html

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.01.20049528v1

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2

There is some evidence that wearing them in a home with someone displaying symptoms may reduce infection of others, but even then at most the benefit is modest (like a ~1/5 reduction).

From the meta-analysis:

“The evidence is not sufficiently strong to support widespread use of facemasks as a protective measure against COVID-19.”

So to answer the question, more Americans probably aren’t wearing face masks in public because they are uncomfortable and ineffective, and they are likely doing nothing but appeasing people that continue to be irrational.

Worth the time (philosophical):

Thomas Sowell
The Conflict of Visions

https://youtu.be/OGvYqaxSPp4

Study #1 from your list doesn't support your argument, and might even contradict it.  In fact it's a total shit study if the authors' goal was to evaluate the effectiveness of masks.  If anything, the mask condition shows a net reduction/improvement in viral load on average compared to the no-mask condition, but the study was too damn small to have a chance of showing anything resembling statistical significance.

That's a "we did a study that didn't prove anything either way", not "masks don't work".

Article #2 in your list references articles #1/#4, so I won't address it independently.

Article #3 is your "1/5th reduction"

Article #4 from your list shows statistically significant improvment in two groups - coronavirus aerosols and flu droplets.  The other groups improve as well if you look at the raw data - but they fall short of statistical significance.  (That's not "doesn't work", that's "sample size wasn't large enough to answer the question".)

To summarize, you're wrong, because:

-None of the articles you claim to support your argument actually do.  And 2 clearly refute it.
-1 of the articles isn't research, just something referencing the other articles.

And you say that a 1/5th benefit in transmission is "modest".  That shows that you fundamentally do not understand how disease transmission works.  If you can cut disease transmission by 10 or 20%, the impact on the terminal number of infections(and hence deaths) is HUGE.  And this is for a low-cost method that doesn't require closing businesses or otherwise significantly disrupting people's lives.

If you're going to cite scientific research, at least read the damn articles and understand them before claiming they support your argument.

Wow. Excellent rebuttal.

Also, the cognitive dissonance is staggering: the same poster who has argued so passionately to open everything up is now arguing against a simple, if mildly inconvenient, measure that might actually help things to open more quickly. It is amazing how little tolerance some adults have for any form of discomfort. I wonder how some of them found their way to MMM.


frugalnacho

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #282 on: May 05, 2020, 07:56:58 AM »
I wonder about the opinions of vaccinations, climate change, and evolution from the contrarians in this thread.  Is their denial of science and reason limited to just masks? Or do they try to cherry pick the results that affirm their beliefs in other subjects? 

index

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #283 on: May 05, 2020, 09:07:10 AM »
The comparison of smoking laws and mask wearing were pretty spot on. You have a right to do whatever you want, just not in places where you impact those around you. I understand wearing a mask is uncomfortable; my glasses fog up unless it is situated perfectly.

I understand the argument masks may not be that effective, but for something growing exponentially, even a small impact can make a huge difference. Take a R value of 1.5 and raise it to the 10th power; assume a mask is only 5% effective at reducing transmission, so take 0.95*1.5 1.425 to the 10 power. The result is 1.5^10 = 58 infections vs 1.425^10 = 35 infections.

Worst case - masks do absolutely nothing and people are encouraged to go out in public due to a false sense of security leading to more infections. Shutdowns need to be lengthened and tightened. Any other case, the inconvenience of wearing a mask saves lives and aids in getting back to normal.

Masks are a part of the culture in Asian countries that have been far more successful in containing the virus. There are many reasons they were more successful, but the mask wearing is perhaps the easiest step to emulate.   

bigblock440

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #284 on: May 05, 2020, 09:31:12 AM »
Ironically, the venn diagram of those who "don't believe in masks at all, as with all health decisions and lifestyles they should be a personal choice" overlaps heavily with people who believe those same personal choices on health decisions and lifestyles to not extend to pregnant women.

Wait, they're advocating on forcing vaccinations, seatbelts, and masks on pregnant women now?  TIL.

bigblock440

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #285 on: May 05, 2020, 09:32:46 AM »
I don't believe in masks at all, as with all health decisions and lifestyles they should be a personal choice for sure and not mandated by legislation.
What does "I don't believe in masks" actually mean?  I understand "I don't believe in God", but substituting "masks" for "God" doesn't seem to connect to any reality I know.

"Why aren't more American wearing masks in public."

I don't believe in making people wear masks in public.

So how do I make you keep 2 meters away from me?  Walk around with a 2 meter pole with a pointed end?  And do you flee in terror when I sneeze towards you (allergies)?  Or would you like me to be wearing a mask?  I'll be wearing one anyway (my old N95 one)  because of people like you.


GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #286 on: May 05, 2020, 09:38:44 AM »
I don't believe in masks at all, as with all health decisions and lifestyles they should be a personal choice for sure and not mandated by legislation.
What does "I don't believe in masks" actually mean?  I understand "I don't believe in God", but substituting "masks" for "God" doesn't seem to connect to any reality I know.

"Why aren't more American wearing masks in public."

I don't believe in making people wear masks in public.

So how do I make you keep 2 meters away from me?  Walk around with a 2 meter pole with a pointed end?  And do you flee in terror when I sneeze towards you (allergies)?  Or would you like me to be wearing a mask?  I'll be wearing one anyway (my old N95 one)  because of people like you.



That's usin' yer noodle.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #287 on: May 05, 2020, 10:40:04 AM »
I don't believe in masks at all, as with all health decisions and lifestyles they should be a personal choice for sure and not mandated by legislation.
What does "I don't believe in masks" actually mean?  I understand "I don't believe in God", but substituting "masks" for "God" doesn't seem to connect to any reality I know.

"Why aren't more American wearing masks in public."

I don't believe in making people wear masks in public.

So how do I make you keep 2 meters away from me?  Walk around with a 2 meter pole with a pointed end?  And do you flee in terror when I sneeze towards you (allergies)?  Or would you like me to be wearing a mask?  I'll be wearing one anyway (my old N95 one)  because of people like you.



That's usin' yer noodle.

Cute.  But not long enough.  I thought it was a hockey stick length apart?

mm1970

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #288 on: May 05, 2020, 10:41:11 AM »
Jeeze, this thread... I'm a person with profound hearing loss who relies on reading lips and getting up close to hear a little bit with hearing aids. I can't even communicate via talking with others now but I sure as hell don't think my discomfort or isolation is worth putting others at risk. Wear your masks!! What's so hard to understand about it.
But...MUH FREEDOM

Dogastrophe

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #289 on: May 05, 2020, 10:57:03 AM »
I don't believe in masks at all, as with all health decisions and lifestyles they should be a personal choice for sure and not mandated by legislation.
What does "I don't believe in masks" actually mean?  I understand "I don't believe in God", but substituting "masks" for "God" doesn't seem to connect to any reality I know.

"Why aren't more American wearing masks in public."

I don't believe in making people wear masks in public.

So how do I make you keep 2 meters away from me?  Walk around with a 2 meter pole with a pointed end?  And do you flee in terror when I sneeze towards you (allergies)?  Or would you like me to be wearing a mask?  I'll be wearing one anyway (my old N95 one)  because of people like you.



That's usin' yer noodle.

Cute.  But not long enough.  I thought it was a hockey stick length apart?

I don't know about you, but I ain't coming within 3 feet of any muthafucker who's crazy enough to go out in public like that!

bigblock440

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #290 on: May 05, 2020, 12:28:56 PM »
I don't believe in masks at all, as with all health decisions and lifestyles they should be a personal choice for sure and not mandated by legislation.
What does "I don't believe in masks" actually mean?  I understand "I don't believe in God", but substituting "masks" for "God" doesn't seem to connect to any reality I know.

"Why aren't more American wearing masks in public."

I don't believe in making people wear masks in public.

So how do I make you keep 2 meters away from me?  Walk around with a 2 meter pole with a pointed end?  And do you flee in terror when I sneeze towards you (allergies)?  Or would you like me to be wearing a mask?  I'll be wearing one anyway (my old N95 one)  because of people like you.



That's usin' yer noodle.

Cute.  But not long enough.  I thought it was a hockey stick length apart?

I think that was from when they were recommending to stay 3 feet apart

Davnasty

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #291 on: May 05, 2020, 01:14:55 PM »
There is almost none, zero, scientific evidence that masks are effective at reducing SARS COVID-19 transmission.

https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-surgical-cotton-masks-blocking-sars-cov-2-controlled-comparison

https://www.livescience.com/are-face-masks-effective-reducing-coronavirus-spread.html

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.01.20049528v1

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2

There is some evidence that wearing them in a home with someone displaying symptoms may reduce infection of others, but even then at most the benefit is modest (like a ~1/5 reduction).

From the meta-analysis:

“The evidence is not sufficiently strong to support widespread use of facemasks as a protective measure against COVID-19.”

So to answer the question, more Americans probably aren’t wearing face masks in public because they are uncomfortable and ineffective, and they are likely doing nothing but appeasing people that continue to be irrational.

Worth the time (philosophical):

Thomas Sowell
The Conflict of Visions

https://youtu.be/OGvYqaxSPp4
-None of the articles you claim to support your argument actually do.  And 2 clearly refute it.

Haha, I think this guy might have the record for citations that say the opposite of their claim. There should be some kind of award.

deborah

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #292 on: May 05, 2020, 02:00:10 PM »
I’m from Australia. We are not being encouraged to wear masks. Our leaders have said that they want to ensure that good quality masks are kept for health care workers and aged care workers. We have also been told that many people who wear masks touch their face more, rather than less, so the masks can actually increase the possibility of infection. And we have been told that people often wear masks after they have ceased to be effective.

On the other hand, when we go to someone who will not be maintaining social distancing (getting a flu injection, having an eye examination...), we are now given a disposable mask for one time use in that situation, and recently these disposable masks have become readily available. Initially they were almost unobtainable, as was hand sanitizer and ppe.

We have used testing and social distancing and quarantine to bring our cases down, and are close to having eliminated it. You can see from the accompanying graphs that the vast majority of all our cases have been from overseas, and there has been little community transmission. Because we’ve just about eliminated it, there’s no chance of herd immunity, so while we’ll probably go out of lockdown in a week, we won’t be able to travel outside the Pacific bubble for a couple of years, whereas places where there has been a much larger percentage of cases may be able to travel much sooner.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #293 on: May 05, 2020, 02:54:38 PM »
I’m from Australia. We are not being encouraged to wear masks. Our leaders have said that they want to ensure that good quality masks are kept for health care workers and aged care workers. We have also been told that many people who wear masks touch their face more, rather than less, so the masks can actually increase the possibility of infection. And we have been told that people often wear masks after they have ceased to be effective.

On the other hand, when we go to someone who will not be maintaining social distancing (getting a flu injection, having an eye examination...), we are now given a disposable mask for one time use in that situation, and recently these disposable masks have become readily available. Initially they were almost unobtainable, as was hand sanitizer and ppe.

We have used testing and social distancing and quarantine to bring our cases down, and are close to having eliminated it. You can see from the accompanying graphs that the vast majority of all our cases have been from overseas, and there has been little community transmission. Because we’ve just about eliminated it, there’s no chance of herd immunity, so while we’ll probably go out of lockdown in a week, we won’t be able to travel outside the Pacific bubble for a couple of years, whereas places where there has been a much larger percentage of cases may be able to travel much sooner.

If I were still there I wouldn't be wearing a mask either.  Ottawa has lots of cases, so I wear a mask when I grocery shop. It is an old N95 I bought when I was mixing dyes.  So far all our medical grade masks are still being used by medical personnel, masks worn by the public are ones they had  before all this started, or homemade fabric ones.  They probably help a bit, and they also remind us to keep our 2 metre distance.

alex753

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #294 on: May 05, 2020, 03:05:06 PM »
I’m from Australia. We are not being encouraged to wear masks. Our leaders have said that they want to ensure that good quality masks are kept for health care workers and aged care workers. We have also been told that many people who wear masks touch their face more, rather than less, so the masks can actually increase the possibility of infection. And we have been told that people often wear masks after they have ceased to be effective.

On the other hand, when we go to someone who will not be maintaining social distancing (getting a flu injection, having an eye examination...), we are now given a disposable mask for one time use in that situation, and recently these disposable masks have become readily available. Initially they were almost unobtainable, as was hand sanitizer and ppe.

We have used testing and social distancing and quarantine to bring our cases down, and are close to having eliminated it. You can see from the accompanying graphs that the vast majority of all our cases have been from overseas, and there has been little community transmission. Because we’ve just about eliminated it, there’s no chance of herd immunity, so while we’ll probably go out of lockdown in a week, we won’t be able to travel outside the Pacific bubble for a couple of years, whereas places where there has been a much larger percentage of cases may be able to travel much sooner.

So I guess from here on society should adopt permanent mask and social distancing laws. I just think this is a slippery slope, that is all. :/

I may be re-enacting Sisyphus here but IMO the total social cost of the response to the virus is not complete without looking at the unintended consequences.  There are costs to this shutdown not born by those who will die from Covid.  There will be additional suicides, domestic violence to women, children, and men. Bankrupted hospitals will not be open to save peoples lives from other conditions, etc.  On the other hand there will be fewer deaths from car accidents, etc.  You get the picture. 

While the shutdown as a whole has unintended consequences, what unintended consequences, if any, would you argue results from wearing facemasks?
 


I suspected an unintended consequence of wearing masks is touching the face more thereby INCREASING the chance of Covid transmission but did not have any reference for it, barring,  argumentum ad verecundiam.

Thanks for the reference and opinion.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 03:16:59 PM by alex753 »

deborah

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #295 on: May 05, 2020, 05:24:05 PM »
I emphasised that we are in a totally different situation to you. A 94% reduction in infection rate is probably sufficient when you have a low level of community spread, especially as the population of Australia has been 99.6% following social distancing. This allowed us to get our cases to fall very quickly. Other health authorities of communities with poor levels of social distancing practices and high infection rates might find this less acceptable, and mandate masks as well, whether or not they are very effective, since they are trying everything to get their totally unacceptable death tolls down and are probably trying for 99% rather than 94%.

If you belong to such a community, your duty as a responsible citizen would be to practise mask wearing at home until you stop touching your face, to ensure you make and wear the most effective mask you can fashion, to only use that mask as long as it will give you protection (and swap to another mask at that point) and to ensure you are following all your community health guidelines including social distancing.

Kris

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #296 on: May 05, 2020, 06:08:11 PM »
I emphasised that we are in a totally different situation to you. A 94% reduction in infection rate is probably sufficient when you have a low level of community spread, especially as the population of Australia has been 99.6% following social distancing. This allowed us to get our cases to fall very quickly. Other health authorities of communities with poor levels of social distancing practices and high infection rates might find this less acceptable, and mandate masks as well, whether or not they are very effective, since they are trying everything to get their totally unacceptable death tolls down and are probably trying for 99% rather than 94%.

If you belong to such a community, your duty as a responsible citizen would be to practise mask wearing at home until you stop touching your face, to ensure you make and wear the most effective mask you can fashion, to only use that mask as long as it will give you protection (and swap to another mask at that point) and to ensure you are following all your community health guidelines including social distancing.

This.

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #297 on: May 05, 2020, 06:33:42 PM »
I’m from Australia. We are not being encouraged to wear masks. Our leaders have said that they want to ensure that good quality masks are kept for health care workers and aged care workers. We have also been told that many people who wear masks touch their face more, rather than less, so the masks can actually increase the possibility of infection. And we have been told that people often wear masks after they have ceased to be effective.

On the other hand, when we go to someone who will not be maintaining social distancing (getting a flu injection, having an eye examination...), we are now given a disposable mask for one time use in that situation, and recently these disposable masks have become readily available. Initially they were almost unobtainable, as was hand sanitizer and ppe.

We have used testing and social distancing and quarantine to bring our cases down, and are close to having eliminated it. You can see from the accompanying graphs that the vast majority of all our cases have been from overseas, and there has been little community transmission. Because we’ve just about eliminated it, there’s no chance of herd immunity, so while we’ll probably go out of lockdown in a week, we won’t be able to travel outside the Pacific bubble for a couple of years, whereas places where there has been a much larger percentage of cases may be able to travel much sooner.

So I guess from here on society should adopt permanent mask and social distancing laws. I just think this is a slippery slope, that is all. :/

I may be re-enacting Sisyphus here but IMO the total social cost of the response to the virus is not complete without looking at the unintended consequences.  There are costs to this shutdown not born by those who will die from Covid.  There will be additional suicides, domestic violence to women, children, and men. Bankrupted hospitals will not be open to save peoples lives from other conditions, etc.  On the other hand there will be fewer deaths from car accidents, etc.  You get the picture. 

While the shutdown as a whole has unintended consequences, what unintended consequences, if any, would you argue results from wearing facemasks?
 


I suspected an unintended consequence of wearing masks is touching the face more thereby INCREASING the chance of Covid transmission but did not have any reference for it, barring,  argumentum ad verecundiam.

Thanks for the reference and opinion.

So don't touch your face when you're wearing a mask.  It takes a little conscious effort the first couple times you wear one, and after that becomes second nature.

This argument seems kinda silly.

js82

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #298 on: May 05, 2020, 06:50:29 PM »
So don't touch your face when you're wearing a mask.  It takes a little conscious effort the first couple times you wear one, and after that becomes second nature.

This argument seems kinda silly.

This is both about getting used to it, and about getting the design/strap arrangement on your facemask right.

If the mask/straps aren't set up correctly it may ride up or down and you'll have to keep adjusting it because it slips down when you talk, or it'll chafe around your ears - it may take a bit of experimentation to get it right.

That's not a "facemasks don't work", it's a "you need a better facemask".  Personally, I'm still working on tweaking mine to make it as comfortable/stable as possible.  Version 1.0 definitely wasn't perfect.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 07:05:00 PM by js82 »

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus- Why aren't more American wearing masks out in public ???
« Reply #299 on: May 06, 2020, 06:59:41 AM »
So don't touch your face when you're wearing a mask.  It takes a little conscious effort the first couple times you wear one, and after that becomes second nature.

This argument seems kinda silly.

This is both about getting used to it, and about getting the design/strap arrangement on your facemask right.

If the mask/straps aren't set up correctly it may ride up or down and you'll have to keep adjusting it because it slips down when you talk, or it'll chafe around your ears - it may take a bit of experimentation to get it right.

That's not a "facemasks don't work", it's a "you need a better facemask".  Personally, I'm still working on tweaking mine to make it as comfortable/stable as possible.  Version 1.0 definitely wasn't perfect.

I have to wear glasses all the time.  Every face mask I've worn except my painting respirator causes them to fog up.  It's annoying, but you can get used to just about anything.