Convincing wife to be more...MMM

[mynameisbob]

Hi All,

I am a first time poster, long time reader of MMM. While I share many attributes with MMM himself I am far from his level. I'm 31 years old and drive the same vehicle I was gifted when I was 16, the AC compressor caught on fire when I lived in hot-as-balls Mississippi so I threw it in the garbage and rolled down the windows. Although it is a bit of a clown car (1997 Chevy Silverado) it now has 254,000 miles and I would keep it forever.

My wife on the other hand drives our other car a 2012 Subaru Outback now with 60,000 miles....which we bought new.  MMM is shaking his head by now. It has been a great car, 30+ MPG highway, solid XC performance on long drives between WA, OK, CA, CO. I am in the military so certain portions of my life are not always in my control, and having a car is a necessity. Before we had our third kid (O yea, we also have three kids 5yr, 2yr, & 3 months) she talked about wanting a van....I denied, deferred, distracted, delayed at all cost. Basically I told her 3 carseats would fit across the back, which they do admirably.

I am getting ready for a deployment so we packed up our house full of stuff and my truck into 2 storage units. We drove from OK to CA so my wife can spend the deployment with her parents and have some help with the kids, all while we save a bit not paying rent and utils in OK. The Subaru performed yet again. It transported a family of 5 across the country with 6 months of clothes, toys, vacuum bags full of clothes, suitcases of clothes, swimsuits, life vest, and that damn hat box. I asked why we needed a hat box, you know what she said..."for hats". But I am a good husband and a tetris wizard so I made it all fit; except the stroller, I'm not a magician. Love the Subaru, it did it all yet she wants the van. Honestly I don't think all that stuff would have even fit in a van with the smaller cargo area. She wants the van so if/when family visits they can fit in the car with us. It seems like the dumbest idea. We have 2 great cars, and we bought her a brand new car just 5 years ago, why...why...why.

How can I convince her to be more...MMM?

Sincerely,
Mr. Clean Shave (military grooming standards are the worst)

[RedmondStash]

You don't. You respect that she is also an adult, an equal, and a partner who has valid views, and the two of you together negotiate a compromise that both sides feel is equitable. Maybe she gets the van, but it's 5-10 years old. Maybe she doesn't get the van, but she gets something else important to her. Maybe she gets the van and you get something else that you really want.

Marriage is about communication and compromise, not about one side figuring out how to change the other. It's about both sides listening to each other.

And also, if you're being deployed, it sounds like she's going to be the one using the vehicle, dealing with kids and family, etc., more than you are. So maybe she's in a better position to ascertain the vehicle that she feels is most suited to that job.

Mustachianism isn't everything.

[Kakashi]

Sorry, got to agree with your wife on this one.  A van is just so extraordinary convenient, esp with occ family visitors etc.

[SC93]

Anytime anyone wants a minivan I'm all for it. I've driven minivan's for over 20 years and hate going on a trip in anything else. I bought a 2001 to work out of. I drive the hell out of it every day. Paid $1300 2 years ago. I change the oil every 4000 miles and put 2 new front tires on it about a year ago. I was offered $1000 for it less than 24 hours ago. So if I take it, that means it cost me $300 to drive for 2 years.

I also agree with RedmondStash. This is life.... live is happy while you are here..... it's very short.....

[mxt0133]

I say you and your wife should get one, just make sure you only get one that is equal or less than the trade-in/sale value of the Subaru.  If she insist on getting one that is more than what you can get for the Subaru and come up with a plan to save up for it.

I managed to persuade my wife that a 650sf one bedroom apartment is more than enough space for a family of five.  Which saves me about 2-3K a month in rent in my city if I were to get a two bedroom.  So when she wants to go on vacation, other than camping, or go out for dinner every now and then, before I let my inner Mustachian out, I remind myself of how much more we could be spending on rent and keep my mouth shut, most of the time.

Since you are saving money by having your family live with the in-laws, I would concede this battle, not to easily though, if it will help you win the war.

 

[MrThatsDifferent]

You don't. You respect that she is also an adult, an equal, and a partner who has valid views, and the two of you together negotiate a compromise that both sides feel is equitable. Maybe she gets the van, but it's 5-10 years old. Maybe she doesn't get the van, but she gets something else important to her. Maybe she gets the van and you get something else that you really want.

Marriage is about communication and compromise, not about one side figuring out how to change the other. It's about both sides listening to each other.

And also, if you're being deployed, it sounds like she's going to be the one using the vehicle, dealing with kids and family, etc., more than you are. So maybe she's in a better position to ascertain the vehicle that she feels is most suited to that job.

Mustachianism isn't everything.

Perfect response!

[chemistk]

Mustachianism isn't everything.

Perfect response!

I second this sentiment. Also, as others have said, get the van. If/when my wife and I have out third we will be getting a van - you may be able to do it now, but it's just going to get more difficult.

Backing up for a second, as a supplement to Redmond's point, you have to remember that your wife runs the show when you are deployed. You really don't get to see firsthand what life is like when you're not there, and without additional support I can assure it's more difficult than you think. It sounds like your wife is willing to participate in at least somewhat of a mustachian lifestyle, save for one convenience.

I would also challenge you to step away from her car for a second and look for other opportunities. How big is your house? Do you guys eat out a lot? What kinds of hobbies do you have? What's your saving strategy look like? It would seem like MMM hyper focuses on cars, but that's just because it's some of the lowest hanging fruit (after moving closer to your job which in your case doesn't exactly apply).

[Bird In Hand]

You don't. You respect that she is also an adult, an equal, and a partner who has valid views, and the two of you together negotiate a compromise that both sides feel is equitable. Maybe she gets the van, but it's 5-10 years old. Maybe she doesn't get the van, but she gets something else important to her. Maybe she gets the van and you get something else that you really want.

Marriage is about communication and compromise, not about one side figuring out how to change the other. It's about both sides listening to each other.

And also, if you're being deployed, it sounds like she's going to be the one using the vehicle, dealing with kids and family, etc., more than you are. So maybe she's in a better position to ascertain the vehicle that she feels is most suited to that job.

Mustachianism isn't everything.

Perfect response!

Yeah, pardon the piling on, but RedmondStash really nailed it.

My wife and I had a similar disagreement about minivans a few years ago.  She felt more strongly about it than I did and we ended up buying one.  I've come to enjoy it quite a bit.  We can reach our family destination without being frazzled and annoyed by a row of loud kids right behind us.  Believe it or not, this has a big impact on our quality of life almost every day.

[Bracken_Joy]

So let me get this straight... you're frustrated that your 3 months post partum wife doesn't want to lean over holding children for 3 cross car seats? When it's quite possible she's shorter than you, so not only is she PP healing still, but she'll also have worse body mechanics than you do for accessing the seats.

Perhaps pause and see this from her view. This is something that may likely be causing her pain and frequent annoyance, and she's the sole parent while you're deployed. And yet you're shaming her online about her "dumb idea" to find a solution to improve her quality of life.

Please respect her experience here and discuss this with her, starting with the assumption that she is acting intrinsically rationally to her situation, and see where that gets you. (Empathy? We can hope?). She is your partner. She is an adult. Proceed accordingly.

[LiveLean]

My God, man, what the heck are you thinking? As if mom-at-home dealing with an deployment isn't challenging enough, she's one of the 10-20 percent of moms who actually WANT to drive a minivan -- the world's most practical bang-for-your-buck vehicle - as opposed to the other 80-90 percent who either refuse or begrudgingly drive one.

Get her what she wants -- Odyssey, Town & Country, Sienna, whatever. Do not delay.

[ketchup]

If the excuse is "but we need to be able to seat seven people 2-3 times a year" then I would say to get a quote for renting a van for a week from a few local car rental places.  It'll probably be $200-300 max.  If you need that twice a year (for example), multiply that by two to get $600.  Will the increased total yearly operational costs (depreciation, gas, insurance, maintenance, repairs, etc.) of a van over the Subaru be substantially more than that $600 number?  If that answer is yes, just rent a van a few times a year when needed (and this is key: be willing to be the one dealing with the "hassle" of renting the van, and do it with a smile on your face.  It's not that much work, but this won't be her idea so she won't want to be the one dealing with it.).  If no, consider just buying the damn van.

I'm not a parent so for better or worse I don't have the emotionally charged answers that many of the above do, but the answer is an immediate knee-jerk blanket "BUY THE VAN."  Buy it if it pencils out, don't just buy it for the hell of it.  Your wife's concern didn't sound like a day-to-day one, more of a short-term what-if, which is exactly what rental cars are for.

Being "more MMM" does not mean shooting down every idea for buying something indiscriminately (even expensive things), it means actually figuring out if purchase X makes sense, and then the best way to optimize that if the answer is yes. 

Housing, transportation, and food are the trifecta of giant core required expenses, so definitely don't fuck one of those up by doing something without a clear reason.  Stakes are much lower elsewhere.  If your wife feels like you're just being cheap overall, maybe be more willing to bend on a much smaller fish.  "Sure, we'll buy that new $500 chair" has much less impact on your bottom line than "Let's replace a five year old car."

[Slee_stack]

My God, man, what the heck are you thinking? As if mom-at-home dealing with an deployment isn't challenging enough, she's one of the 10-20 percent of moms who actually WANT to drive a minivan -- the world's most practical bang-for-your-buck vehicle - as opposed to the other 80-90 percent who either refuse or begrudgingly drive one.

Get her what she wants -- Odyssey, Town & Country, Sienna, whatever. Do not delay.

Whole-heartedly disagree.

Station Wagons are #1.  Minivans a close #2  :D

[talltexan]

First, I need to disclose that I am a Honda Odyssey owner. We sold a Subaru to buy it, so I've seen both sides, and agree with you that a Subaru outback is a great car. I have also seen how much easier the Odyssey makes my wife's life, as we are frequently in situations with moving 5-6 people around with it. If she has three kids and is living near her parents, those six-person trips will be frequent.

Take the time to understand the characteristics of the van that your wife is really seeking. Make sure she feels understood. It will be very hard to persuade her that denying her a van today so you can put more money into an IRA for 10-years from now is a good trade.

You should figure out how to create conditions in which the van can appear. What can you do to save the additional money to pay cash for a van? Can YOU put something on the table that will swing cash flow in the short term to enable buying the van? I struggle with being married to a bigger spender than I, but I find instituting the requirement that our purchases not be financed is a very reasonable way of regaining some control.

[teen persuasion]

Mom of 5 here.

Minivan, not van.  We did the twelve passenger van thing for while - serious overkill.  We've had a variety of minivans over the years.  Much easier to get kids in and out of car seats with the minivan vs a station wagon or sedan - I've whacked my head more than once while doing car seats, before we went up to a minivan.  Doors on both sides is also a big improvement over only one side door.  Extended space in the back is a must, for strollers, groceries, camping equipment, sports equipment, tubas, etc.  The longer frame also allows for transporting an upright base (along the slider door).  When the kids are moving into college dorms, a minivan minus a few seats is much easier for loading/unloading than a sedan.  I gleefully swapped down to a sedan after a few kids were in/out of college, but we are feeling crowded at times now with just 2 kids, like camping.

The extra seats for passengers is a plus, too.  Remember, the kids will eventually want a friend to come along, or a cousin, or grandma, etc.  The kids get bigger, too - more space between siblings can calm things down on long rides.

Just frame it as a swap - used minivan for her current car - not an upgrade to new.

[mm1970]

Of course, financially, it totally makes sense to keep the Subie.

How often, REALLY, do you need the van, to drive with everyone else?  Rarely.  In the cases that we do, we drive two cars.  Easy peasy.

The Subie has performed admirably in all aspects!

But.

Minivans are SO convenient.  Several of my friends have them, and I love them for it.  They can transport kids + friends.  Kids + friends + stuff.  OMG, I cannot imagine how much better a week-long road trip would be with all that extra room.  (For the record, driving 2 adults and 2 kids - 11 and 5 - in a Matrix with a Thule box and camping gear - is really freaking uncomfortable).

Sliding doors.  Ability to separate obnoxiously fighting children.  Ah...I want one so bad.  But I cannot justify it.

3 kids, sitting 3 across...yeah, they fit now, but they are going to get bigger you know.  Is she the one who has to deal with all of the kids?

However if I did get one, I'd aim for one that is 5-7 years old and in good condition.  Compromise?  Used minivan?

[Bird In Hand]

Sliding doors.  Ability to separate obnoxiously fighting children.  Ah...I want one so bad.  But I cannot justify it.

I admire your restraint.  I valiantly resisted getting a minivan on financial grounds, but my wife won that argument.  Now I get to reap all the awesome rewards of having one.  Separating obnoxiously fighting siblings is #1 on the benefit list for me.

[SC93]

Just for the record, renting a minivan is not $300 anymore. We rented one for a week in June.... almost $1000 and that was with a discount that the rental girl said she has never seen before (my wife is great at finding online discounts). The rental girl said most of the time they are $1200-$1500 per week. Just a plain ol' Dodge minivan, didn't even have any extra's. Yep, the websites say all kinds of things.... until you get there to rent it....

[slappy]

May I ask what car seats you have in the back of your Outback? I have a 2011 Outback and we are planning a third child. My husband wants to get a seven passenger SUV, but I am firmly against that, of course. Currently we have two car seats in the back and I can sit comfortably in the middle between them, so I'm certain we can fit three seats across.

[slappy]

Just for the record, renting a minivan is not $300 anymore. We rented one for a week in June.... almost $1000 and that was with a discount that the rental girl said she has never seen before (my wife is great at finding online discounts). The rental girl said most of the time they are $1200-$1500 per week. Just a plain ol' Dodge minivan, didn't even have any extra's. Yep, the websites say all kinds of things.... until you get there to rent it....

I'm renting a van through priceline in Austin next week and it cost $356.82.

[patchyfacialhair]

Just for the record, renting a minivan is not $300 anymore. We rented one for a week in June.... almost $1000 and that was with a discount that the rental girl said she has never seen before (my wife is great at finding online discounts). The rental girl said most of the time they are $1200-$1500 per week. Just a plain ol' Dodge minivan, didn't even have any extra's. Yep, the websites say all kinds of things.... until you get there to rent it....

I rented a minivan from one of the big brand rental companies in Orlando during busy season a couple of times now and it works out to around $300/week. Seems like a location-specific issue.

[inline five]

The key to car rentals is actually renting online. If you read the guys post he didn’t do that, he showed up and wanted a car.

I advised someone once to rent a car from A-B showing them the online price. When they got there an hour later and walked up, it tripled.

[EmFrugal]

My husband and I had a very similar discussion. When we had our third child, we tried to make our Accord work with three across, but logistically it was terrible for me. We ended up with a four year old Odyssey and I am so happy. I have a 6yo, 3yo, and 20 month old for what it's worth.

I didn't used to by mustachian/frugal/all of the above, but over time I got really interested in saving for our future as well as having money to spend on the things we value. That turned into only spending on needs and things that bring fulfillment into my life. Maybe if you present it that way to your wife she would be more on board with the overall theme. And if she's willing, have her do some of the budgeting. I needed to be in charge of it so I didn't feel like I was being told what I could and could not buy. It's made a huge difference for our family.

But seriously, a van is really helpful when you have three or more kids. Just pick one that is used and has good bones. Odysseys are awesome!

[ketchup]

The key to car rentals is actually renting online. If you read the guys post he didn’t do that, he showed up and wanted a car.

I advised someone once to rent a car from A-B showing them the online price. When they got there an hour later and walked up, it tripled.

It can also (not always) make a difference to do it in advance.  Hertz wanted something ludicrous like $80/day for a plane-Jane compact car once when I wanted it that afternoon.  Booking a week out, that Hertz location is usually more like $17-25/day.

A grand a week for a minivan is highway robbery.  That cannot be typical.

[mynameisbob]

I appreciate the many great responses here, but I would like to respond to a few.

May I ask what car seats you have in the back of your Outback? I have a 2011 Outback and we are planning a third child.

We have a booster chair in the middle, with added seatbelt extension. This enables our five year old to buckle himself in the middle seat. On the right we have a Diono Rainier a great and compact seat for our 2 year old (If you live in western WA the factory holds a yearly sale in Puyallup). On the left is the base for a standard Graco car seat for the infant. It really is the seatbelt extension for the 5 year old that makes all of this possible. No crazy reaching over carseats to buckle little ones. A very elegant solution.

So let me get this straight... you're frustrated that your 3 months post partum wife doesn't want to lean over holding children for 3 cross car seats? When it's quite possible she's shorter than you, so not only is she PP healing still, but she'll also have worse body mechanics than you do for accessing the seats.

Perhaps pause and see this from her view. This is something that may likely be causing her pain and frequent annoyance, and she's the sole parent while you're deployed. And yet you're shaming her online about her "dumb idea" to find a solution to improve her quality of life.

Please respect her experience here and discuss this with her, starting with the assumption that she is acting intrinsically rationally to her situation, and see where that gets you. (Empathy? We can hope?). She is your partner. She is an adult. Proceed accordingly.

Wow, I am not an apathetic monster. No the Subaru is not causing her physical pain, and if she told me she needed a minivan to get through this deployment I would buy it today. We certainly have the cash to do so.  She wants to look into a minivan at our next duty location (possibly Hawaii or WA, or CA, or anywhere).

Ability to separate obnoxiously fighting children.

HAHA, our 2 year old can be a pest and also a princess. Our longest day on the road during our last XC was 14 hrs (ABQ to Vegas). It wasn't planned that way, but extra stops got the better of us. By the end we were done, the yelling, the fighting, the crying. It was terrible, and I wouldn't change a thing. We will tell stories of that day for years to come. I remember doing 4+ hour road trips to the mountains with my 7 person family in a old truck with 6 seatbelts, my sister and I would share. The bed of the truck looked like the Beverly Hillbillies packed it up. Great memories. 

Sorry, got to agree with your wife on this one.  A van is just so extraordinary convenient, esp with occ family visitors etc.

Someone punch that man in the face. Convenience is a weaksause for a limp noodle stir-fry.

Maybe she gets the van and you get something else that you really want.

Buy the van and then something else. Double plus bad. Next.

You really don't get to see firsthand what life is like when you're not there, and without additional support I can assure it's more difficult than you think. It sounds like your wife is willing to participate in at least somewhat of a mustachian lifestyle, save for one convenience.

I would also challenge you to step away from her car for a second and look for other opportunities. How big is your house? Do you guys eat out a lot? What kinds of hobbies do you have? What's your saving strategy look like? It would seem like MMM hyper focuses on cars, but that's just because it's some of the lowest hanging fruit (after moving closer to your job which in your case doesn't exactly apply).

Doesn't exactly answer the question, but I like where your head is at.

You should figure out how to create conditions in which the van can appear. What can you do to save the additional money to pay cash for a van? Can YOU put something on the table that will swing cash flow in the short term to enable buying the van?

Texas to the rescue. I think we have a winning solution. By sacrificing a bit more myself, my wife can still have the van and by seeing my sacrifice be more encouraged to sacrifice other pleasantries so we can meet our financial goals together! Now I know why nobody messes with you. Looks like I'll be craigslisting some stuff when I get back from this thing.

And if she's willing, have her do some of the budgeting. I needed to be in charge of it so I didn't feel like I was being told what I could and could not buy. It's made a huge difference for our family.

It's like staring at the sun! The brilliance! Yes, my wife has rarely been in the seat when working finances. She is a stay at home mom and rarely helps work our money strategy. Getting her more involved and making sure we on the same page with our goals sounds like a great solution. We can also find ways to visually track our progress toward our current goal (paying off our house in WA so I can get out of the military before retirement). I get excited when I do the math and find out how possible it is, I need to have her help me with those spreadsheets. THIS IS AWESOME!

[thurston howell iv]

This is a partnership. It's got to be 50/50.

Just an idea in keeping with the mmm theme...
Check CL and ebay. See what similar subaru's have sold for. See what similar Silverado's have sold for.
Then check CL locally for mini-vans (in general)- to see what's out there. Keep the price under $5k for example.

If things are comparable, sell off the truck or the subie or both and use the earnings to buy the minivan. Stash the remainder.
This doesn't have to be the car you drive (if you're concerned that it's not cool... LOL) It can belong to DW or you can tint the windows so no one sees you. :)

Of course, I would ask her to take lead on the search so that she can get a feel for the market, see what is available in the price range, and help to drive the purchase so that she gets what she wants.

[Tuskalusa]

Get the mom what she needs to take care of the kids and keep her sanity. Three you kids, husband on deployment, AND moving home with the folks?  She’s already a saint for handling that much change just after having a baby. Get the van ASAP.

[golden1]

You still don’t really seem to get it.  You are so wrapped up in a lifestyle that suits your temperament and personality that you feel the only thing required is for your wife to change her thinking.  You might save money at the expense of the feelings of the mother of your children, and your life partner.  You can be right if that is really your primary goal, but you may not like the ultimate result. 

P.S.  Badass men rarely have to brag about how badass they are. 

[Frankies Girl]

I don't think anyone has pointed out the short-sighted/emotional attachment he has to his own vehicle. To the point that he is paying to store it someplace while deployed. Along with renting two storage units for household stuff while she lives several states away for months/years?

This is impractical in the extreme and a huge waste of money (not even counting the amount of money you'd have if you'd sold off the stuff being stored).

You should have sold the truck, along with 90% of the stuff that went into storage. If you're not going to be using them for a year or more, then it is a huge waste of money. You can buy furniture, housewares, even clothing when you set up house together once you're back.

Your wife driving a minivan is not a bad thing. Minivans are great. MMM owned a minivan instead of a truck. He may still own it. He uses it to haul stuff all the time. Hauling around 3 kids and the shopping/other people is what a minivan was made for, so the fact that it can hold equipment and junk and building supplies is just a cherry on top.

[mynameisbob]

I don't think anyone has pointed out the short-sighted/emotional attachment he has to his own vehicle. To the point that he is paying to store it someplace while deployed.

Another solution! Sell the old truck and get an old van, a possibility. In this case the military paid for vehicle storage, and we were not willing to sell a majority of our stuff when we will be back in 6-7 months. That would be crazy.

You still don’t really seem to get it.  You are so wrapped up in a lifestyle that suits your temperament and personality that you feel the only thing required is for your wife to change her thinking.  You might save money at the expense of the feelings of the mother of your children, and your life partner.  You can be right if that is really your primary goal, but you may not like the ultimate result. 

P.S.  Badass men rarely have to brag about how badass they are. 

You seem to be angry about something or just not like me. And since this criticism carried little construct I will focus on the helpful responses from others.

[Laura33]

If you want to persuade your wife to be more MMM, read the sticky for "how to convert your spouse in 50 steps" sticky.  You will see from that that you persuade your spouse by leading by example, trying to understand what is driving her, and finding ways to show her how *her* life will be better by spending less -- not by criticizing the things she wants as "dumb."

I think you are getting some in-your-face responses because the tone that comes through your posts is "I am a badass and my wife wants stupid spendy convenience stuff, so how do I convince her to be smarter and more like me?"  It sounds disrespectful of her and dismissive of her concerns.  I'm sure you're not like that in real life, but the love and respect that I'm sure you feel for her doesn't come through in what you've posted.  I have a feeling your wife is just as much of a badass as you are, if she is wrangling three kids for months at a time on her own (hell, I have a DH who rarely travels for work for more than a day or two at a time, and I still stopped at 2!).  So I think you will get a less antagonistic response if you phrase things more like "my wife is a total badass, but she likes to spend money more freely than I do, so how can I make sure she is set with what she needs while still staying on budget and not falling into consumerist crap?"

Frankly, her request doesn't seem unreasonable.  Sure, you thought the Subie would be a great long-term choice -- but then you added two more kids!  And she did give it a fair try with three kids in the Subie, didn't she?  I mean, she first raised the minivan idea before your third kid, but agreed to give it a shot your way, right?  So it's not exactly outrageous to say, you know, I thought this was going to work, I've tried for several months, but now that I'm actually juggling three kids every day, plus the occasional visitor (and soon carpool), it's just not working for me, and I want a fucking minivan.*  So accept that you didn't have 20/20 foresight (no one does) and trade the used Subie for a used van -- just learn from your past mistake and don't get a brand new one!  Also, you mentioned that you are saving money by her moving in with her parents while you're deployed, so that frees up a little more in the budget if you need to spend a little more on the van than you can get for the other vehicles.** 

*This is particularly true given how much she needs to hold down the fort when you're gone.  Some of the standard workarounds mentioned earlier -- taking two cars, or you running out to rent a larger van when needed -- won't really work for her when you are deployed.  I totally get why she just wants one vehicle that she knows will hold everyone she needs to ferry around, whether it is visitors or running carpool or whatever.  It's just one less thing for her to worry about.

**Your vehicle is definitely cheap, but how much is gas/maintenance?  It's worth it to check your carrying costs on even "free" stuff once in a while to see if it really is as great a deal as you think it is, or whether another cheap used vehicle might be even more mustachian. 

[Allie]

If you can make a lateral move, cost wise to a used vehicle, the van is a great idea. 

I dropped my Subaru after 2 kids and got a big mom mobile.  It's been great for everything, my kids are separated physically in the car and can maneuver around, and I can easily take other kids if I need to do so.  I think non stay at home parents greatly undervalue the social capital and help that comes from being able to cart around a number of children.  I can grab friends kids for play dates, after school, etc. and they can do the same for me!  If something comes up, I can call a friend and she will watch my kids after school and it's fine because the other day when she was stuck at the doctors office I grabbed her kids we all hung at my house.  You can think of one to two times a year when you have to use more than five seats...I can think of multiple times in the last month I have been thankful for multiple extra rear seats and I only have two kids and no extended family.  I would think this would be even more important as she works to build a social support network while you are deployed. 

Having three kids freaking out and fighting in a 3 across in the back seat is hil-arious that one time you all went on a crazy trip.  It won't be so funny when the younger two are a little older and it is every single day!  :-)  I have a friend with a truck with a three across seating for her two fours year olds and six year old.  I can see them fighting through the back window when I'm driving behind her.  Maybe your kids are super awesome, but it looks awful!

[human]

I find it ridiculous how everyone is screaming for the van. My dad dragged my brother and I on the bus or we didn't go anywhere at all. There's plenty of parents out there without a vehicle at all. Lotta first world problems on this forum lately.

[ixtap]

The kids behaving is the least convincing argument. If that is the main reason, you wait and see. Some kids just cannot get along, but even then often two problem kids can be separated by the neutral one.

[golden1]

Thanks from your response to my post!  I like getting good belly laughs on a Saturday morning.

I wasn’t angry at all, and your response PERFECTLY illustrated the tone that I was responding to.  I tend to be a bit blunt, which is probably what you are responding to. You seem very intent on proving how amazingly badass you are, and the fact that you got nothing useful out of what I posted might make you consider that your own attitude might be hindering you from making your relationship as badass as the rest of your life. 

I am very interested in the answer to the post regarding your unreasonable emotional attachment to your vehicle that is probably costing you more money than it should.  Lead by example. 

As usual, Laura33 nails it in a more tactful way than I could

[Bird In Hand]

The kids behaving is the least convincing argument.

You have your story, I have mine.  On a daily basis, the ability to separate the kids is the thing I appreciate most about our minivan.  The benefit here is going to depend a lot on the temperaments of the kids and the parents.

[Bird In Hand]

I think non stay at home parents greatly undervalue the social capital and help that comes from being able to cart around a number of children.  I can grab friends kids for play dates, after school, etc. and they can do the same for me!  If something comes up, I can call a friend and she will watch my kids after school and it's fine because the other day when she was stuck at the doctors office I grabbed her kids we all hung at my house.  You can think of one to two times a year when you have to use more than five seats...I can think of multiple times in the last month I have been thankful for multiple extra rear seats and I only have two kids and no extended family.  I would think this would be even more important as she works to build a social support network while you are deployed.

I think this is an excellent point.  From carpools to chaperoning class field trips to being able to spontaneously offer rides to classmates (as favors or for play dates), my wife has benefited greatly from the social capital afforded by the minivan.  I think that was actually her main motivation for wanting one in the first place, though I didn't fully comprehend this at the time.

[undercover]

I find it ridiculous how everyone is screaming for the van. My dad dragged my brother and I on the bus or we didn't go anywhere at all. There's plenty of parents out there without a vehicle at all. Lotta first world problems on this forum lately.

I agree...like...what the fuck. Everyone is saying how convenient/worth it a van is. And it seems that everyone is bundling the "holier than thou" mentality OP allegedly has towards his wife (I don't see it really) with the practicality of a van. All of the replies here are basically piggy-backing off the first response without any real thought added to the mix.

I frequently rode home from school or other places with 3-4 people in the backseat of a non-van for 30+ min rides. Turned out fine. Why do kids need "breathing room"? How far are you toting them? Why are you toting them so far to begin with? The Outback can easily carry 5 full size adults plus all of their shit in the back.

Using a minivan to haul stuff and perform work out of is one thing, but using it to tote human beings around unnecessarily from place to place is another. Buses can get kids to school. The rest is completely optional. Why the hell would you pay to be able to transport your kids plus THEIR friends plus THEIR friend's shit for the one in a million times it happens. Move out of the burbs or find closer friends.

So yeah, I think OP "telling his wife what to do" is completely separate from owning a van. You may need to concede to the van, but it doesn't make it the best choice. But I think the root of this problem is too much reliance on a vehicle, period.

[mynameisbob]

If you want to persuade your wife to be more MMM, read the sticky for "how to convert your spouse in 50 steps" sticky.  You will see from that that you persuade your spouse by leading by example, trying to understand what is driving her, and finding ways to show her how *her* life will be better by spending less -- not by criticizing the things she wants as "dumb."

I think you are getting some in-your-face responses because the tone that comes through your posts is "I am a badass and my wife wants stupid spendy convenience stuff, so how do I convince her to be smarter and more like me?"  It sounds disrespectful of her and dismissive of her concerns.  I'm sure you're not like that in real life, but the love and respect that I'm sure you feel for her doesn't come through in what you've posted.  I have a feeling your wife is just as much of a badass as you are, if she is wrangling three kids for months at a time on her own (hell, I have a DH who rarely travels for work for more than a day or two at a time, and I still stopped at 2!).  So I think you will get a less antagonistic response if you phrase things more like "my wife is a total badass, but she likes to spend money more freely than I do, so how can I make sure she is set with what she needs while still staying on budget and not falling into consumerist crap?"

Yes, the satire badass bravado was obviously not received well by others, likely due to the topic. Thank you for seeing through that to the point of deducing that my wife is super badass as is. Also for pointing out the sticky, some great stuff there. I'll save the satire for another day as we are all trying "Early Retirement through Badassity".

[AccidentialMustache]

Sneak attack? "Yes you can have a minivan. I found a great deal on a used mazda 5..." If what she wants is 3 rows and sliding doors you're golden. Its technically a "tall wagon" not a "minivan" but, um, I wouldn't call minivans very "mini" anymore.

Another possible option to point out -- can she hold out for long enough to get that 5 year old into the front seat? Not sure what carseat laws are where you are or what size your kids are, but my 7 year old has one more year and he can legally ride without a booster (although to be honest if he keeps up adding height like he has been, he might be out of it before he's 8 simply because its too small).

[ixtap]

The kids behaving is the least convincing argument.

You have your story, I have mine.  On a daily basis, the ability to separate the kids is the thing I appreciate most about our minivan.  The benefit here is going to depend a lot on the temperaments of the kids and the parents.

Which the rest of my quote that you snipped addressed. To avoid such snippets, I could have more precisely said "kids potentially behaving..."

[Carrie]

Sell the Subaru, and buy a minivan with the proceeds, not a penny more. May even be able to make a profit since Subaru holds value, right?
Kids can't safely ride in the front (as someone suggests ) until they are adult sized, which may not be until 12-15. So holding out for the 5 yr old to grow up doesn't make much sense to me.
Also I'd sell the gas guzzler truck while I'm at it and not worry about replacing until deployment is done, then replace with a fuel efficient beater,  using the minivan as the haul vehicle.
Boom, just solved all your problems. :)
Older minivans are also cheaper to insure. ;)

[MrsPete]

Transporting the family is a need.

Transporting the family comfortably is technically a want, but it's pretty high on the list -- especially when you're looking at long-distance drives (like getting your wife and kids to her parents before/after your deployment).  As the kids grow, this is going to require more and more space -- not only will their bodies grow, but in no time they'll be toting backpacks, sports equipment, and more.  The space in a minivan will make your family's life better.  Your wife will likely see this more clearly because she's probably the one transporting the kids more often.  If you couldn't afford the minivan or were in debt, yeah, that'd be a different story -- but this isn't a big splurge compared to how it'll make your family more comfortable. 

Disclosure:  In part I feel this way because we didn't have adequate transportation when I was a kid, and I have many negative memories from the car.  I was one of five kids, and over the years I remember us having a minivan with no air conditioning (we're in the Deep South, and the windows didn't open -- just cracked about 4").  I remember us having a king cab truck, and we made lengthy trips with our duffle bags in the area behind our parents' seats /us kids all in the back.  Oh, and my earliest transportation memories are of all five of us in the back of a large Pontiac; we usually reverted to two people sitting on the floorboards (we rotated), and sometimes I (the oldest but the smallest) squishing myself on the ledge above the seats/under the back windshield. 

[ixtap]

Transporting the family is a need.

Transporting the family comfortably is technically a want, but it's pretty high on the list -- especially when you're looking at long-distance drives (like getting your wife and kids to her parents before/after your deployment).  As the kids grow, this is going to require more and more space -- not only will their bodies grow, but in no time they'll be toting backpacks, sports equipment, and more.  The space in a minivan will make your family's life better.  Your wife will likely see this more clearly because she's probably the one transporting the kids more often.  If you couldn't afford the minivan or were in debt, yeah, that'd be a different story -- but this isn't a big splurge compared to how it'll make your family more comfortable. 

Disclosure:  In part I feel this way because we didn't have adequate transportation when I was a kid, and I have many negative memories from the car.  I was one of five kids, and over the years I remember us having a minivan with no air conditioning (we're in the Deep South, and the windows didn't open -- just cracked about 4").  I remember us having a king cab truck, and we made lengthy trips with our duffle bags in the area behind our parents' seats /us kids all in the back.  Oh, and my earliest transportation memories are of all five of us in the back of a large Pontiac; we usually reverted to two people sitting on the floorboards (we rotated), and sometimes I (the oldest but the smallest) squishing myself on the ledge above the seats/under the back windshield.

Having more people than seats is not the same as "needing" twice as many seats as people.

[Bird In Hand]

The kids behaving is the least convincing argument.

You have your story, I have mine.  On a daily basis, the ability to separate the kids is the thing I appreciate most about our minivan.  The benefit here is going to depend a lot on the temperaments of the kids and the parents.

Which the rest of my quote that you snipped addressed. To avoid such snippets, I could have more precisely said "kids potentially behaving..."

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood your initial post.  I only quoted the first part because I thought your main point was that annoying kid behavior is not an issue worth considering.  The rest seemed to speak to the possibility of annoying kid behavior naturally subsiding (or increasing, I don't know) or being mitigated in the future.

[Laura33]

I find it ridiculous how everyone is screaming for the van. My dad dragged my brother and I on the bus or we didn't go anywhere at all. There's plenty of parents out there without a vehicle at all. Lotta first world problems on this forum lately.

I agree...like...what the fuck. Everyone is saying how convenient/worth it a van is. And it seems that everyone is bundling the "holier than thou" mentality OP allegedly has towards his wife (I don't see it really) with the practicality of a van. All of the replies here are basically piggy-backing off the first response without any real thought added to the mix.

I frequently rode home from school or other places with 3-4 people in the backseat of a non-van for 30+ min rides. Turned out fine. Why do kids need "breathing room"? How far are you toting them? Why are you toting them so far to begin with? The Outback can easily carry 5 full size adults plus all of their shit in the back.

Using a minivan to haul stuff and perform work out of is one thing, but using it to tote human beings around unnecessarily from place to place is another. Buses can get kids to school. The rest is completely optional. Why the hell would you pay to be able to transport your kids plus THEIR friends plus THEIR friend's shit for the one in a million times it happens. Move out of the burbs or find closer friends.

So yeah, I think OP "telling his wife what to do" is completely separate from owning a van. You may need to concede to the van, but it doesn't make it the best choice. But I think the root of this problem is too much reliance on a vehicle, period.

All of which would make perfect sense if the wife came here asking for advice.  But she didn't.

The OP did.  And as you say, the OP telling his wife what to do is completely separate from the merits of van vs. car.  Many of the comments -- mine, at least -- were designed to help the OP understand that what he sees as a "dumb" decision may not appear so dumb to the person who needs to manage three kids on her own for months at a time.

And on the merits, I would be interested in a closer financial analysis beteeen the two options, because I don't see anyone here saying "buy a new van," and Subarus don't get great gas mileage (and minivans don't tend to be horrible).  My off-the-cuff assumption would be that this is pretty much a like-for-like swap, without much of a financial difference one way or the other, so I don't get the minivan hate.  There seems to be an undertone here of "it was good enough for me" -- as if remaining in an uncomfortable situation is a badge of honor, in and of itself. 

Which, again, is fine if you want to choose it for yourself.  But you don't get to choose it for other people.

[mm1970]

The kids behaving is the least convincing argument. If that is the main reason, you wait and see. Some kids just cannot get along, but even then often two problem kids can be separated by the neutral one.

Yeah, and the poor neutral one has fists thrown across them for 4 hours.

[BFGirl]

You don't. You respect that she is also an adult, an equal, and a partner who has valid views, and the two of you together negotiate a compromise that both sides feel is equitable. Maybe she gets the van, but it's 5-10 years old. Maybe she doesn't get the van, but she gets something else important to her. Maybe she gets the van and you get something else that you really want.

Marriage is about communication and compromise, not about one side figuring out how to change the other. It's about both sides listening to each other.

And also, if you're being deployed, it sounds like she's going to be the one using the vehicle, dealing with kids and family, etc., more than you are. So maybe she's in a better position to ascertain the vehicle that she feels is most suited to that job.

Mustachianism isn't everything.

Agree wholeheartedly with this response.  I had a spouse who "denied, deferred, distracted, delayed at all cost" on any monetary issues on which I had a different opinion.  Guess what?  I quit asking his opinion and did what I thought was best.  It made me feel like I had no voice or say so in the financial decisions that effected my life.  One of the major reasons he is no longer my spouse.

[talltexan]

I find it ridiculous how everyone is screaming for the van. My dad dragged my brother and I on the bus or we didn't go anywhere at all. There's plenty of parents out there without a vehicle at all. Lotta first world problems on this forum lately.

The first reaction of a MMM-disciple is of course against unnecessary consumption.

But the marital understanding of the poster with his wife will not be improved by him imposing this ethic. His constant travel for work means that he has to accept lifestyle choices on her part that would horrify the rest of us. I see these posts less about the consumption of the van and more about how we can offer was OP can demonstrate understanding of his wife's challenges so that he can--over time--impose mustachian optimisation on this household.

Spending money isn't the mustachian crime. Using up resources without a material improvement is the mustachian crime.

[KCM5]

I'm confused - seems like the Subaru could be traded for a used van. They'd probably get about the same gas mileage. I doubt insurance would change. Maintenance is a wild card, but the Subaru I had always seemed to cost at least $800/repair, so I doubt it'd go up much. Seems like a switch that wouldn't have to cost much or any money but would increase comfort. OP, I bet you can find a win-win here. Find a nice used Honda Odyssey, sell the Subie and you'll all be happy!