Connection with frugality/independence and rebelliousness?

[undercover]

My guess is most people who crave independence and don't do what others are doing have lots of other similar traits.

Just curious if most of you who consider yourself frugal/"different" also consider yourself rebellious in terms of how you live your everyday life.

Are you more open minded and say what you really mean/think versus conforming falling prey to groupthink?

Are you less concerned with image and prestige than living a life true to you?

My guess is most people will answer "yes" and it's why I love the idea of this community: rational/open-minded/skeptical/autonomous.

[wordnerd]

I don't consider myself rebellious, since I'm pretty non-confrontational. But, I've always (from being a young kid) prided myself on being different. I've never fit that well and never really tried to. So, maybe more independent than rebellious?

[tipster350]

Rebelliousness implies a fight against authority, and for me there is no fight. I simply want to have the freedom that financial independence buys. Getting there requires a certain level of independent thought and strength to buck the norm; but bucking is just a necessary part of reaching my goal rather than a central theme.

[undercover]

In regards to "rebellion" - I mean in the sense of "against the norm"/convention or not wanting to be tied to one place (more of a metaphor).

[Imma]

My s/o and I grew up in the punk movement and met at a punk show. We've always been "weirdo's", never fitted in and never cared about that. We don't look like punks anymore and I have a corporate job (he's a musician, but not a punk musician) but yes, there's always been a strong independent streak in both of us. We've always been into DIY and have always strongly disliked mass consumption and materialism. Politically, we don't have extremely strong views, but I'm leaning towards anarcho-capitalism.

In the end, that's why we no longer really feel at home in the mainstream punk scene. For most people, punk is just a fashion style like any other. We do have a great, close-knit group of friends from that time. Many people who end up in the punk scene are from dysfunctional families, like ourselves, and in the abscence of strong family ties, strong friendships formed.

[EmFrugal]

I think more than anything embracing my frugality has made me more confident. I'm OK with being different from the status quo. But I still like being part of a live community. Living in a townhome community with like-minded families gives me that. Even though we are surrounded by what appears to be extreme wealth outside of our little village neighborhood, I've also realized that those who live in the huge homes just want the same things I do. A happy life, safe communities for their kids, good schools, etc. We just all go about it in different ways. I choose more free time with my family and self-development, while the huge house folks choose longer work hours and dual incomes.

[Tass]

I am the opposite of rebellious. I was a goodie-two-shoes kid and breaking rules still makes me nervous. BUT. I do have to believe the rule makes sense for it to be worth following. Frugality makes sense, so it's a rule I incorporate into my life.

If nothing else, I strongly endorse rationality.

[wenchsenior]

Answers you get will probably depend on how we define terms. 

I'm definitely non-typical and independent in the sense that I go my own way and am not interested in other peoples' opinions of my interests/goals/lifestyle choices, etc..  But that could be a side effect of being fairly introverted and not very people oriented in general.

However, I associate rebelliousness with a lot of characteristics that I usually find undesireable: thrill-seeking, impulsive decision-making, confrontations with authority, rejection of traditional adult responsibility in society. Personally I don't consider myself rebellious at all, just nonconformist in some areas. 

I'm the one at work who picks up the slack for the slackers so that the work gets done. I'm the one who tried to get decent grades and fretted about it.  I'm the one who makes that little bit of extra effort to get along with 'the difficult people' even though I myself am not a people-person.  I don't mean I'm a stick in the mud that never breaks a rule; it's just that generally I try to abide by laws and contribute to keeping society relatively pleasant and stable.  I do not admire e.g. tax-dodgers et al. for 'sticking it to the man'.  I'm a planner and a rational, scientific type thinker.   Rebellion often creates too much uncertainty for me to be one LOL.

[Imma]

I am the opposite of rebellious. I was a goodie-two-shoes kid and breaking rules still makes me nervous. BUT. I do have to believe the rule makes sense for it to be worth following. Frugality makes sense, so it's a rule I incorporate into my life.

If nothing else, I strongly endorse rationality.

Funny enough, I have always been a goodie-two-shoes kid too. I have never drank or used drugs. I have always followed my own strong moral compass and the spirit of the punk movement happened to align with that. Rule breaking when the rules were stupid is something I had to learn.

MMM has written an article about this connection in the past: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/22/theres-something-you-need-to-know-about-the-rules/   

It's clear we're not independent at all. This is like a cult and our Great Leader has written sacred texts about every possible thing already.

[undercover]

MMM has written an article about this connection in the past: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/22/theres-something-you-need-to-know-about-the-rules/   

It's clear we're not independent at all. This is like a cult and our Great Leader has written sacred texts about every possible thing already.

I don't agree with every little thing MMM writes (in terms of what I should be doing in my own life), but I do agree that it all makes rational/logical sense.

Thanks for the article link. I had not seen it. I definitely am referring to the "chaotic good". I'm starting to realize that maybe most people (even on the forums) are "lawful good" though.

I guess what I like rebelling against is all of the irrationality in the world.

"Fuel prices are going to spike, so buy your gas now!"
"Stocks are historically high because...yada yada shiller/PE ratios, wait to buy!"
"Every single thing X politician does is stupid and shouldn't be done!"

I also like challenging conventions and people that say that you can only do things a certain way or what society says you need to do for "success", and so on...

For example, some people think you need to go to college and suck up and get promoted and have a certain title and make a certain amount of money to be successful while other people make YouTube and Twitch content and literally answer to no one and make hundreds thousands of dollars in their bedrooms. Same thing with comedians, writers, successful artists in general, startup founders, etc...Just saying that most of life involved a huge amount of conformity and giving up a part of yourself in order to "be" a certain thing. But I think "rebellious" types realize that they can be and do largely what they want (whilst being good) and still be successful.

Basically, society: You need to act in a certain way, know certain things, accomplish certain things, make a certain amount of money, SPEND a certain amount of money, etc.
Rebellious type (independent thinker): I'm doing it my way.

ER falls within the rebellious type IMO. Although maybe that's the extent of it for most.

[Fomerly known as something]

My mother likes to refer to me as stubborn over rebellious. 

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Short answer for me? YUP

I've never thought of rules as much more than a guideline.

Oddly enough, though, I've always had a weird stock up/save/preparedness thing. Even as a little kid, my games were about finding and storing and planning for some imaginary future. I was the kid with the lego 'general store' that held all sorts of cool pieces while everyone else built cool things with those cool pieces.

[GenXbiker]

MMM has written an article about this connection in the past: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/22/theres-something-you-need-to-know-about-the-rules/   

It's clear we're not independent at all. This is like a cult and our Great Leader has written sacred texts about every possible thing already.

I don't agree with every little thing MMM writes (in terms of what I should be doing in my own life), but I do agree that it all makes rational/logical sense.

Thanks for the article link. I had not seen it. I definitely am referring to the "chaotic good". I'm starting to realize that maybe most people (even on the forums) are "lawful good" though.

I guess what I like rebelling against is all of the irrationality in the world.

"Fuel prices are going to spike, so buy your gas now!"
"Stocks are historically high because...yada yada shiller/PE ratios, wait to buy!"
"Every single thing X politician does is stupid and shouldn't be done!"

I also like challenging conventions and people that say that you can only do things a certain way or what society says you need to do for "success", and so on...

For example, some people think you need to go to college and suck up and get promoted and have a certain title and make a certain amount of money to be successful while other people make YouTube and Twitch content and literally answer to no one and make hundreds thousands of dollars in their bedrooms. Same thing with comedians, writers, successful artists in general, startup founders, etc...Just saying that most of life involved a huge amount of conformity and giving up a part of yourself in order to "be" a certain thing. But I think "rebellious" types realize that they can be and do largely what they want (whilst being good) and still be successful.

Basically, society: You need to act in a certain way, know certain things, accomplish certain things, make a certain amount of money, SPEND a certain amount of money, etc.
Rebellious type (independent thinker): I'm doing it my way.

ER falls within the rebellious type IMO. Although maybe that's the extent of it for most.

I'm more on the rebellious end of the spectrum, too, and feel mostly the same way.   I've read various MMM blog posts over the years, but I didn't really pick up much new useful info.  Maybe that would have been different when I was in my low 20's.  I was already saving the large majority of my income before I ever heard of MMM.  I started coming here much more in recent months to read the forum and post as well, just to find those rare nuggets of good info and participate in a community of people with similar ideas about financial matters and retirement.  I definitely don't feel like a member of a cult - I'm just doing the same thing I've been doing for many years with little change needed.  I don't fall in to line with what the mainstream media or any political ideology tells me to think.  I find my own way.  If I listened to others, I would have kids, but no thanks.  I'm an independent thinker.

[Zikoris]

Me? Definitely. I question everything and live pretty unorthodox in most ways.

[Firehazard]

"if everyone else is doing it, its probably wrong."  I've long ago forgotten where I heard or read that, but I've found it to be true more often than not.  I am regarded as rebellious among my friends, acquaintances and coworkers.  I don't give a rip, either!

[Imma]

Short answer for me? YUP

I've never thought of rules as much more than a guideline.

Oddly enough, though, I've always had a weird stock up/save/preparedness thing. Even as a little kid, my games were about finding and storing and planning for some imaginary future. I was the kid with the lego 'general store' that held all sorts of cool pieces while everyone else built cool things with those cool pieces.

Ooh, I did that too! Most of my childhood games were about pioneers.

The cult thing was obviously a joke, but it is funny that all the independent, free-thinking people end up having all the same ideas. Of course that could mean those ideas are the truth ;-) but I do feel a little bit uneasy being part of a community where everyone shares my way of thinking. I still find it hard to believe.

[soccerluvof4]

My guess is most people who crave independence and don't do what others are doing have lots of other similar traits.

Just curious if most of you who consider yourself frugal/"different" also consider yourself rebellious in terms of how you live your everyday life.

Are you more open minded and say what you really mean/think versus conforming falling prey to groupthink?

Are you less concerned with image and prestige than living a life true to you?

My guess is most people will answer "yes" and it's why I love the idea of this community: rational/open-minded/skeptical/autonomous.

-Not in how I live my everyday life other than against the mainstream in spend spend and go in debt.

-I used to be call very opinionated when I was young but was misinterpreted plus as I got older learned better ways to give it. But yes I stand up for what I believe and if I feel something is not to my liking will be out going about it.

-I feel that people like me because of my lack of concern of image. I hear all the time from people that they wish they could be more like me. I don't mean that in an arrogant way but just more simple, flannel shirts and blue jeans or shirts and I don't really give a shit attitude.  But i don't walk around wearing that attitude. Its just who I have always been internally. Clean and simple! thats kinda my motto.

[clarkfan1979]

My s/o and I grew up in the punk movement and met at a punk show. We've always been "weirdo's", never fitted in and never cared about that. We don't look like punks anymore and I have a corporate job (he's a musician, but not a punk musician) but yes, there's always been a strong independent streak in both of us. We've always been into DIY and have always strongly disliked mass consumption and materialism. Politically, we don't have extremely strong views, but I'm leaning towards anarcho-capitalism.

In the end, that's why we no longer really feel at home in the mainstream punk scene. For most people, punk is just a fashion style like any other. We do have a great, close-knit group of friends from that time. Many people who end up in the punk scene are from dysfunctional families, like ourselves, and in the abscence of strong family ties, strong friendships formed.

I like the original post and comment about the connection to punk rock. For me, punk was about asking questions regarding why societal norms exist. If there's not a good reason for something, then start doing something different that makes more sense. I wasn't anti-authority, but if an authority figure told me to do something without any solid reasoning and pulled the ole "because I said so" I would tell them to fuck off.

I think I have been lucky in that I still get to live out my punk views as an academic teaching psychology classes in college. I tell the students to think for themselves, questing authority and don't blindly follow rules like sheep. My research focuses on social influence and more specifically the influence of social norms.

I don't like to burn bridges, but if an employer tries to put a squeeze on me, I don't mind telling them that I don't really want to do what they are asking and if they continue to ask me, I will simply look for another job.

I don't think I have ever experienced any negative consequences from it. I have never really cashed in like others have said. I just get a little more respect at work and less likely to be taken advantage of. They then go after someone else. 

I have also always been practical to a fault. When I waited tables in So Cal, all the cool kids wore expensive skate shoes to work even though no one actually skated, except me. It seems very stupid because your shoes would be ruined from beer and food landing on them. I had a decent pair of skate shoes, but I preferred to wear them to the skate park.

For work, I ended up buying some black generic shoes from Walmart with Velcro across the top. My co-workers would make fun of me for my shoes, but it didn't bother me. It was a great college job, but some of the kids thought it was a career and had no plans of leaving. After I graduated, I quit. Many of my co-workers were like, "but you just started getting some of the good shifts." I thought that was very short sighted and a small way of thinking.

[Polaria]

My s/o and I grew up in the punk movement and met at a punk show. We've always been "weirdo's", never fitted in and never cared about that. We don't look like punks anymore and I have a corporate job (he's a musician, but not a punk musician) but yes, there's always been a strong independent streak in both of us. We've always been into DIY and have always strongly disliked mass consumption and materialism. Politically, we don't have extremely strong views, but I'm leaning towards anarcho-capitalism.

In the end, that's why we no longer really feel at home in the mainstream punk scene. For most people, punk is just a fashion style like any other. We do have a great, close-knit group of friends from that time. Many people who end up in the punk scene are from dysfunctional families, like ourselves, and in the abscence of strong family ties, strong friendships formed.

I like the original post and comment about the connection to punk rock. For me, punk was about asking questions regarding why societal norms exist. If there's not a good reason for something, then start doing something different that makes more sense. I wasn't anti-authority, but if an authority figure told me to do something without any solid reasoning and pulled the ole "because I said so" I would tell them to fuck off.

I think I have been lucky in that I still get to live out my punk views as an academic teaching psychology classes in college. I tell the students to think for themselves, questing authority and don't blindly follow rules like sheep. My research focuses on social influence and more specifically the influence of social norms.

I don't like to burn bridges, but if an employer tries to put a squeeze on me, I don't mind telling them that I don't really want to do what they are asking and if they continue to ask me, I will simply look for another job.

I don't think I have ever experienced any negative consequences from it. I have never really cashed in like others have said. I just get a little more respect at work and less likely to be taken advantage of. They then go after someone else.  [...]

I am a metalhead at heart myself and I pretty much see things along the same lines as you.

[Raenia]

I am the absolute opposite of rebellious.  As a child I felt very alienated, and wanted nothing more than to fit in, so I've tended pretty heavily toward conformance in most parts of my life.  I'm also so far into the lawful side of the spectrum that it's a little silly (and I know I'm being silly, but I can't seem to stop myself.)  I never drank underage, never smoked, never did drugs, hardly even speed, etc.  I just don't let my conforming instincts get in the way of the things that really matter to me.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Short answer for me? YUP

I've never thought of rules as much more than a guideline.

Oddly enough, though, I've always had a weird stock up/save/preparedness thing. Even as a little kid, my games were about finding and storing and planning for some imaginary future. I was the kid with the lego 'general store' that held all sorts of cool pieces while everyone else built cool things with those cool pieces.

Ooh, I did that too! Most of my childhood games were about pioneers.

The cult thing was obviously a joke, but it is funny that all the independent, free-thinking people end up having all the same ideas. Of course that could mean those ideas are the truth ;-) but I do feel a little bit uneasy being part of a community where everyone shares my way of thinking. I still find it hard to believe.

That's funny - people used to joke that I was a pioneer in a past life. I used to think it was because I'd spent a LOT of time with the Laura Ingalls Wilder books but my grandmother said I used to play the same way well before I could read.

[Accidental Fire]

I've always been pretty rebellious in my consumer habits, and in bucking trends in general. I knew in my late 20's that cars were at the top of the list as far as money-pits, so I bought a $3000 Ford Aspire with 82k miles. It was teal, as in 'turquoise'.  At the time I made around 75k a year and already had about 300k invested.  My friends thought I was nuts, and I was the butt of endless jokes because of that car. Now I'm FI and semi-retired, as they slave away 50 hours a week with minimal savings.

[Imma]

Short answer for me? YUP

I've never thought of rules as much more than a guideline.

Oddly enough, though, I've always had a weird stock up/save/preparedness thing. Even as a little kid, my games were about finding and storing and planning for some imaginary future. I was the kid with the lego 'general store' that held all sorts of cool pieces while everyone else built cool things with those cool pieces.

Ooh, I did that too! Most of my childhood games were about pioneers.

The cult thing was obviously a joke, but it is funny that all the independent, free-thinking people end up having all the same ideas. Of course that could mean those ideas are the truth ;-) but I do feel a little bit uneasy being part of a community where everyone shares my way of thinking. I still find it hard to believe.

That's funny - people used to joke that I was a pioneer in a past life. I used to think it was because I'd spent a LOT of time with the Laura Ingalls Wilder books but my grandmother said I used to play the same way well before I could read.

Hahaha, I was obsessed with the Laura Ingalls Wilder books too! I still know the books by heart. As a little girl, I sewed a scrap quilt because Laura and Mary did that too. I still have that first quilt (and I'm still a quilter).

[Aelias]

You wouldn't know it to look at us now (2 corporate jobs, small comfortable home, 2 small kids), but my husband and I both had a strong affinity for the punk movement in our younger days, me more so than him.  The appeal of it to me was that I never had much tolerance for bullshit, and growing up in an uptight, WASPy, striving upper middle class town, there was plenty of bullshit to rebel against.

Now, in order to support our family and build for our future, we have developed an uneasy détente with the bullshit.  This was necessary to get and hold jobs.  But, knowing that we're at or near FI, I don't have any anxiety about losing my job and I don't feel obligated to hold my tongue at work.  I try not to be rude or unkind, but I call bullshit where I see it. For the most part, it's worked out well.  My coworkers seem to respect me, and, more importantly, I respect myself.

And we got to FI by rebelling in ways big and small--keeping our crappy apartment and car even when our incomes went up, not going to shitty yuppie bars, etc.  This also allows us to donate heavily and often to causes we value.  I'm not out in the streets as much as I used to be, but I'm funding those who are.

TL/DR -- FI is, first and foremost, independence.  Independence allows you to either go along with or buck the status quo as you see fit.  And fuck the bullshit.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Short answer for me? YUP

I've never thought of rules as much more than a guideline.

Oddly enough, though, I've always had a weird stock up/save/preparedness thing. Even as a little kid, my games were about finding and storing and planning for some imaginary future. I was the kid with the lego 'general store' that held all sorts of cool pieces while everyone else built cool things with those cool pieces.

Ooh, I did that too! Most of my childhood games were about pioneers.

The cult thing was obviously a joke, but it is funny that all the independent, free-thinking people end up having all the same ideas. Of course that could mean those ideas are the truth ;-) but I do feel a little bit uneasy being part of a community where everyone shares my way of thinking. I still find it hard to believe.

That's funny - people used to joke that I was a pioneer in a past life. I used to think it was because I'd spent a LOT of time with the Laura Ingalls Wilder books but my grandmother said I used to play the same way well before I could read.

Hahaha, I was obsessed with the Laura Ingalls Wilder books too! I still know the books by heart. As a little girl, I sewed a scrap quilt because Laura and Mary did that too. I still have that first quilt (and I'm still a quilter).

That's awesome! I wear a sun bonnet ALWAYS because Mary did, and the other day I coloured some cooked rice with carrot juice because I'd run out of turmeric..... and I can and preserve and put up harvests. So funny that Ma and Pa's teaching is STILL being used.
I guess the books were a brilliant start on the whole frugal living idea for little girls.

[sequoia]

I don't consider myself rebellious, since I'm pretty non-confrontational. But, I've always (from being a young kid) prided myself on being different. I've never fit that well and never really tried to. So, maybe more independent than rebellious?

^ I definitely pride myself being different, especially financially. I see some of my friends who grows up together are starting to get worried about retirement or still have big loans to deal with. I can smile and think back, I was right for not getting that expensive new car (or new iPhone or whatever is the item to have). Who is laughing now...

[Bumperpuff]

I wouldn't say rebellious as that implies forceful upheaval, perhaps subversive would be a better term.