Author Topic: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare  (Read 16311 times)

SugarMountain

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Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« on: November 30, 2016, 03:18:13 PM »
So given the recent turn of events, it looks like Paul Ryan has a burning desire to not just repeal Obamacare, but also privatize Medicare.  My understanding is they actually want to take Medicare and make it more like Obamacare.  That is to say, seniors will have to buy private insurance and will get vouchers to help pay for it.  I have no idea how much annual insurance on the private market will be for an 80 year old, but I can't imagine it will be cheap.  If they means test on the vouchers, that will mean those of us who have saved a lot will probably have to pay significantly more out of pocket.  Obviously, some of this is wait & see what really happens, but healthcare costs seems to be one of the bigger risks to early retirement, so I thought I'd bring it up. I had been worried about the gap from 50-65, but it seemed like O'care might help with that, particularly with pre-existing conditions, but if medicare gets radically changed that will need to enter the equation as well.

Mr. Green

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2016, 04:36:25 PM »
I'd say thinking about what might happen to these is the same as thinking about timing the market: a huge waste of brain power. I'm sure there are tons of ideas for want different members of Congress what to see happen to healthcare in this country. You could probably drive yourself into an institution trying to consider all the possible scenarios and how it might affect you.

azure975

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2016, 04:40:02 PM »
I'm very concerned about this too, but I've decided to tune it all out because like the previous poster said, there are so many possible scenarios that it seems like  a waste of brainpower. My FIRE date isn't for about 10 years, so I don't want to spend my energy getting into a tizzy over when it could all change in 4 years anyway. This is definitely validation of my decision to go for fat-FIRE rather than lean-FIRE though. Better to save more to weather things like this.

wenchsenior

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2016, 07:59:34 AM »
So given the recent turn of events, it looks like Paul Ryan has a burning desire to not just repeal Obamacare, but also privatize Medicare.  My understanding is they actually want to take Medicare and make it more like Obamacare.  That is to say, seniors will have to buy private insurance and will get vouchers to help pay for it.  I have no idea how much annual insurance on the private market will be for an 80 year old, but I can't imagine it will be cheap.  If they means test on the vouchers, that will mean those of us who have saved a lot will probably have to pay significantly more out of pocket.  Obviously, some of this is wait & see what really happens, but healthcare costs seems to be one of the bigger risks to early retirement, so I thought I'd bring it up. I had been worried about the gap from 50-65, but it seemed like O'care might help with that, particularly with pre-existing conditions, but if medicare gets radically changed that will need to enter the equation as well.

Obamacare is as good as gone. What it will be replaced with is completely up in the air at this point, since the GOP has not coalesced around a replacement plan. Paul Ryan has been dying to gut Medicare for years and has detailed plans to do so and a large part of his party on board. However, whether he can move that through Congress (esp. the Senate) and past Trump? I am considerably less convinced than I am on Obamacare being voted out of existence. That doesn't keep me from losing sleep over the prospect, though.

farmecologist

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2016, 08:25:01 AM »

Here is an interesting article about Tom Price's healthcare 'plan' :

  https://finance.yahoo.com/news/8-big-changes-under-tom-124500270.html

Very interesting.  However, it doesn't look good for people who want to retire early.  The ACA as it currently stands actually works out very well (maybe too well) for early retirees.  I'm afraid that may be ending with this administration.


Tyler

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2016, 09:08:18 AM »
Very interesting.  However, it doesn't look good for people who want to retire early.

I get the opposite impression.  It doesn't look to me like much will change for early retirees.  My biggest worry prior to the ACA was being excluded from coverage due to preexisting conditions, but none of the replacement proposals are threatening to remove that.  It's way too early to judge the final balance of individual costs for any new proposal, and for all we know things like selling plans across state lines and offering more variety in coverage will succeed in making things more affordable. 

In any case, I agree with the above comment that there's no reason to fret about fears rather than facts.  Laws have changed a ton in the last 30 years and will continue to do so for the next 30.  Certainty is an illusion.  But luckily, ER is about maximizing flexibility! 
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 09:28:21 AM by Tyler »

farmecologist

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2016, 10:28:08 AM »
Very interesting.  However, it doesn't look good for people who want to retire early.

I get the opposite impression.  It doesn't look to me like much will change for early retirees.  My biggest worry prior to the ACA was being excluded from coverage due to preexisting conditions, but none of the replacement proposals are threatening to remove that.  It's way too early to judge the final balance of individual costs for any new proposal, and for all we know things like selling plans across state lines and offering more variety in coverage will succeed in making things more affordable. 

In any case, I agree with the above comment that there's no reason to fret about fears rather than facts.  Laws have changed a ton in the last 30 years and will continue to do so for the next 30.  Certainty is an illusion.  But luckily, ER is about maximizing flexibility!

Yes, I agree that we should not draw any premature conclusions.  However, I think it is useful to look into what the proposals are - especially now that the president and congress will be under full control of one party.  After, all, this is how the ACA was passed in the first place.  As with anything, there are going to be winners and losers here.

Unless I am reading it incorrectly, these proposals certainly do not look good for folks with pre-existing conditions.  Yes, the plan is to keep pre-existing condition clause.  However, it appears that the implementation will be vastly different.  With the ACA, high-risk individuals are essentially 'absorbed' by the system as a whole.  It appears that this 'new' plan is pushing the high-risk insurance pool idea again.  In other words, people with pre-existing conditions are pushed into a high-risk pool...with much higher premiums, etc... In theory, these high-risk pools will be 'subsidized' somehow.  However, when high-risk pools existed before the ACA, they were vastly underfunded...leaving states to pick up the tab.

All I'm saying is that these incoming changes will probably change the calculus for folks when determining when considering ER.    It is dangerous to just ignore them.








scantee

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2016, 10:38:26 AM »
So given the recent turn of events, it looks like Paul Ryan has a burning desire to not just repeal Obamacare, but also privatize Medicare.  My understanding is they actually want to take Medicare and make it more like Obamacare.  That is to say, seniors will have to buy private insurance and will get vouchers to help pay for it.  I have no idea how much annual insurance on the private market will be for an 80 year old, but I can't imagine it will be cheap.  If they means test on the vouchers, that will mean those of us who have saved a lot will probably have to pay significantly more out of pocket.  Obviously, some of this is wait & see what really happens, but healthcare costs seems to be one of the bigger risks to early retirement, so I thought I'd bring it up. I had been worried about the gap from 50-65, but it seemed like O'care might help with that, particularly with pre-existing conditions, but if medicare gets radically changed that will need to enter the equation as well.

Obamacare is as good as gone. What it will be replaced with is completely up in the air at this point, since the GOP has not coalesced around a replacement plan. Paul Ryan has been dying to gut Medicare for years and has detailed plans to do so and a large part of his party on board. However, whether he can move that through Congress (esp. the Senate) and past Trump? I am considerably less convinced than I am on Obamacare being voted out of existence. That doesn't keep me from losing sleep over the prospect, though.

Ryan has been fantasizing about privatizing Medicare for forever, but I expect he'll have a very hard time seeing it through even with a "Republican" president and majorities in both the house and senate. Medicare being extremely popular plus seniors' high voting rates will make even conservative senators in conservative states hesitant to play along. Unlike reps, they have to answer to the full constituency of the state, rather than just those in a specific geographic area, and many will not be willing to take the political risk of doing away with such a popular public program.

For Obamacare, for all of the talk of repeal and replace, I think it unlikely to happen because there aren't many other good options to replace it with. Most people like the ACA generally, except for the mandate, but there isn't a viable alternative to the ACA without it, since it is the feature that makes the whole system feasible.  My guess is that decision-making about it will be punted down the line for several years. Subsidies will continue to decrease, premiums will continue to increase, and the overall marketplace will wither.

Tyler

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2016, 10:48:52 AM »
Unless I am reading it incorrectly, these proposals certainly do not look good for folks with pre-existing conditions.  Yes, the plan is to keep pre-existing condition clause.  However, it appears that the implementation will be vastly different.  With the ACA, high-risk individuals are essentially 'absorbed' by the system as a whole.  It appears that this 'new' plan is pushing the high-risk insurance pool idea again.  In other words, people with pre-existing conditions are pushed into a high-risk pool...with much higher premiums, etc... In theory, these high-risk pools will be 'subsidized' somehow.  However, when high-risk pools existed before the ACA, they were vastly underfunded...leaving states to pick up the tab.

The way I've read various proposals, the high risk pools are for people who didn't previously have insurance but want to sign up with expensive preexisting conditions.  I believe Ryan's plan included shifting people back into the normal pools after two years once they essentially were no longer high risk.  And Price's plan in the link specifically says that people who maintain continuous coverage get guaranteed coverage at the standard premium. 

Who knows how it will ultimately shake out.  Again, it's too early to judge.  But I also see plenty of signs that there's no reason for early retirees to panic. 

hogfanboy

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2016, 12:07:05 PM »
Very interesting.  However, it doesn't look good for people who want to retire early.

I get the opposite impression.  It doesn't look to me like much will change for early retirees.  My biggest worry prior to the ACA was being excluded from coverage due to preexisting conditions, but none of the replacement proposals are threatening to remove that.  It's way too early to judge the final balance of individual costs for any new proposal, and for all we know things like selling plans across state lines and offering more variety in coverage will succeed in making things more affordable. 

In any case, I agree with the above comment that there's no reason to fret about fears rather than facts.  Laws have changed a ton in the last 30 years and will continue to do so for the next 30.  Certainty is an illusion.  But luckily, ER is about maximizing flexibility!
Thanks Tyler you make some good points.   But  I have done a "little" reading about the idea of selling plans across state lines and if it will aid in making insurance more affordable.  There are a lot of articles out there that make compelling cases  that it won't.  Do a google and read some of the many Forbes articles on the matter.  The first obvious issue is insurance  companies hold down  cost buy having an in-network of doctors and facilities. This makes in impractical for almost all insurance plans to be offered to other states.  Almost all of the safety regulations in health care is written at the state level.  If I live in Georgia and  buy a plan from Utah  what does that mean?  Could it mean a raise to the bottom to the state that has the least safety regulations?

I'm hoping for the best for the health care consumer. 


Metric Mouse

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2016, 12:14:35 PM »
Posting to follow. I'd be very surprised if Paul Ryan could get his plan pushed through without significant changes.

I see the mandate going away, but the majority of the ACA changes staying in tact. Whether this will "work" will depend on how much people, and the government, is willing to pay.

SugarMountain

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2016, 02:56:36 PM »
For Obamacare, for all of the talk of repeal and replace, I think it unlikely to happen because there aren't many other good options to replace it with. Most people like the ACA generally, except for the mandate, but there isn't a viable alternative to the ACA without it, since it is the feature that makes the whole system feasible. 

I think this is correct.  Everyone says they want to keep the protections for pre-existing conditions, but they really don't work without the mandate or you only have sick people buying insurance.  I don't see the insurance lobby letting the pre-existing conditions clauses stand and the mandate go away. And once you've got the mandate, you've got to have a way for poor people to get it, which leads to subsidies and/or medicaid expansion. Repeal is easy, replace not so much.

Quote
My guess is that decision-making about it will be punted down the line for several years. Subsidies will continue to decrease, premiums will continue to increase, and the overall marketplace will wither.

That may be how they ultimately phase it out.  I won't be surprised to see some tweaks like coverage minimums and cross state line selling go through pretty quickly and victory declared.  And as others have said cross state line insurance selling doesn't do much. The hard part is negotiating deals with Drs & hospitals to be competitive.  If you're not in that state, there is probably a reason.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2016, 03:29:30 PM »
The requirement to accept people regardless of pre-existing conditions is a positive thing for early retirees. If that sticks around, it's a good sign. The lower tax credits that Tom Price proposes might mean you need to save more to FIRE in the US, but at least you'll know that there will be a price you can pay for an insurance policy. The concern, however, will be whether the cost of a policy will be too high for enough people that a bunch of relatively healthy folks opt out and we get a death spiral.

wenchsenior

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2016, 03:43:23 PM »
For Obamacare, for all of the talk of repeal and replace, I think it unlikely to happen because there aren't many other good options to replace it with. Most people like the ACA generally, except for the mandate, but there isn't a viable alternative to the ACA without it, since it is the feature that makes the whole system feasible. 

I think this is correct.  Everyone says they want to keep the protections for pre-existing conditions, but they really don't work without the mandate or you only have sick people buying insurance.  I don't see the insurance lobby letting the pre-existing conditions clauses stand and the mandate go away. And once you've got the mandate, you've got to have a way for poor people to get it, which leads to subsidies and/or medicaid expansion. Repeal is easy, replace not so much.

Quote
My guess is that decision-making about it will be punted down the line for several years. Subsidies will continue to decrease, premiums will continue to increase, and the overall marketplace will wither.

That may be how they ultimately phase it out.  I won't be surprised to see some tweaks like coverage minimums and cross state line selling go through pretty quickly and victory declared.  And as others have said cross state line insurance selling doesn't do much. The hard part is negotiating deals with Drs & hospitals to be competitive.  If you're not in that state, there is probably a reason.

I definitely think it will be punted for a while, amidst minor tweaks that are hailed as huge overhauls.

However, I personally think that the GOP feels NO pressing need to really replace Obamacare with anything. Generally speaking, most Dems consider access to healthcare to be a right of all citizens, and also believe that it should not be financially out of reach for someone of low income, nor should people go bankrupt due to health issues. If these things occur, the gov't should be trying to rectify that.

In contrast most members of the GOP I suspect DO NOT believe access to healthcare is a right, nor do they think government should necessarily have any role in helping people get access. I'm pretty most them would be perfectly fine with reverting to the old system and dumping everybody straight back to being uninsured. 

This expectation that the GOP will provide an alternative to Obamacare makes sense if the majority of the PEOPLE WHO VOTE had truly agreed that ALL people should have access to health insurance (and at least semi-affordable health care). But the voters seem to be pretty much split.

Now consider on top of the divergence in philosophy, that as a purely practical matter, the GOP wants individuals to bear more of the cost of healthcare, and the gov't to bear less. Ryan's Medicare voucher idea is set up specifically so that it DOES NOT keep pace with projected healthcare costs over time, with the goal of gradually shifting the cost of health insurance and/or health care in insurance to the individual. Cleverly, he 'buys' the vote of those already on Medicare (who definitely DO vote) by grandfathering them in. But his idea is that eventually we would all each pay most of the cost of our health care coverage. That's not a bug, it's a feature of the plan because of the philosophy underlying it.

When it comes right down to it, I really don't think most GOP members care that much that people die from lack of affordable insurance. They feel those people should find a way to pay for it themselves. They also feel that if the government didn't subsidize health care, costs would go way down, and more people could pay for it. But even if costs don't drop, and more and more people are forced to go without, their underlying philosophy doesn't push them to do anything about it.

Now, I like to think that the bad press and the voter pressure that would arise if millions of people are 'dumped' would convince the GOP to come up with a workable alternative, but then I remember that 1) Obamacare WAS their alternative, back in the 1990s; and 2) most of those affected would be very poor people, and politicians just don't care that much what happens to the poor, who don't vote in large numbers as much anyway, particularly in the midterms, and who can't compete with the clout of the insurance companies or their own hardcore lock-step constituents who always want to cut taxes and government spending and who always vote.

So....I think we could easily just go back to the old system, where you could only get healthcare if you can find work that covers you with a benefit package. And let COBRA etc. cover the rest. Or not.

Johnez

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2016, 06:37:56 PM »
Obama's broken promise="you can keep your doctor."
Trump's soon to be broken promis="you can have affordable health care."

The faster he pushes this through, the faster he can be sacked and we can all get single payer.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2016, 04:30:08 AM »
We all pay for our health care one way or another. Either through insurance premiums, taxes, or actual cost. The problem with insurance is that you pay through a middle man who gets their cut. The problem with government funded health insurance is that beurocracy increases cost. Unfortunately obamacare or any other proposal still has no discussion regarding cost. Until we deal with cost, health insurance will always be unaffordable to the poor.

Instead of fixing insurance we need to fix cost by decreasing regulations, creating transparency, and minimizing the need for a middleman.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2016, 04:39:38 AM »
Obama's broken promise="you can keep your doctor."
Trump's soon to be broken promis="you can have affordable health care."

The faster he pushes this through, the faster he can be sacked and we can all get single payer.

This is kinda how I feel. Let's get people access to healthcare, and not forced 'access' to expensive health insurance. I don't much care if Obama gets credit for pushing an unworkable system or if Trump does for breaking the unworkable system faster than it might otherwise have fallen apart - let's can it and progress towards healthcare access for everyone.

farmecologist

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2016, 09:15:44 AM »
For Obamacare, for all of the talk of repeal and replace, I think it unlikely to happen because there aren't many other good options to replace it with. Most people like the ACA generally, except for the mandate, but there isn't a viable alternative to the ACA without it, since it is the feature that makes the whole system feasible. 

I think this is correct.  Everyone says they want to keep the protections for pre-existing conditions, but they really don't work without the mandate or you only have sick people buying insurance.  I don't see the insurance lobby letting the pre-existing conditions clauses stand and the mandate go away. And once you've got the mandate, you've got to have a way for poor people to get it, which leads to subsidies and/or medicaid expansion. Repeal is easy, replace not so much.



I agree..I'm not convinced that any of the 'replacement' options being considered will fix anything.  Any 'tweaks' could very well make things worse. 

What really needs to be addressed is the elephant in the room - the insurance companies.  I see absolutely no talk of the new administration addressing this..nor will they.  I fear that the insurance lobby is just too strong.

I hate to always lay blame on the insurance companies.  However, the fact remains that they are for-profit entities trying to make as much money as possible.  This is in direct conflict with what healthcare insurance is supposed to provide.  The fact that they were able to drop 'at-risk' patients (pre-ACA) is just deplorable ( yes, I used that word..lol ).  I really hope we don't have to go back to that....and this sort of thing is what scares quite a few of us.

On the other hand, I STILL hear quite a bit of talk from people about how they shouldn't have to pay for healthcare 'because they are healthy' or they 'don't want to pay for sick people'.   They don't seem to realize that they can become one of those 'sick people' at any time.  This just irritates me.   The only way ANY healthcare system can work is if everyone pays something now for later benefit.  This the very definition of what 'insurance' is...

So it goes both ways....greed from insurance companies...and people not wanting to 'chip in' their fair share.  However, I do agree that the system we have now isn't working.  In fact, my brother was essentially priced out of healthcare insurance for next year (2017).  His premiums went up an astounding amount and he is seriously considering just paying the penalty.  This is just sad and frankly smells of insurance companies 'making their point' to kill the ACA.

So the solution?  Many cite 'single payer'.  Unfortunately, this is a pipe dream with the new administration.  There has been absolutely no indication that it will even remotely be considered.  So don't get your hopes up.

   



 






radram

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2016, 10:13:01 AM »
Posting to follow. I'd be very surprised if Paul Ryan could get his plan pushed through without significant changes.

I see the mandate going away, but the majority of the ACA changes staying in tact. Whether this will "work" will depend on how much people, and the government, is willing to pay.

I wish I shared your optimism.  I see the recent resurection of the divide-and-conquer strategy of WI working very well to push the Ryan changes through.  I believe some form of massive overhaul of Medicare is a certainty within the first year. You just have to move the needle far enough to effect just as few  as necessary to maintain power without backlash.  You see this as a very effective technique in negotiations with unions, for example (if new hires starting wages are cut in half, it does not effect the voting union member).


To pass major medicare reform, something like the following: 
Current retirees, no change (boomers happy)
Gen X, transition changes (some of the changes, but not enough to hurt "a lot")
Millennials, pretty big changes(retirement is too far off to really care that much)
Current children, whatever you want.  They have 60 years to plan ahead.

I agree much of ACA changes will be a shifting of who pays, with those who can least afford paying (sick and poor) seeing the largest increase.  FIRE couples (like me), will pay more as well with less coverage.


wenchsenior

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2016, 11:44:05 AM »
For Obamacare, for all of the talk of repeal and replace, I think it unlikely to happen because there aren't many other good options to replace it with. Most people like the ACA generally, except for the mandate, but there isn't a viable alternative to the ACA without it, since it is the feature that makes the whole system feasible. 

I think this is correct.  Everyone says they want to keep the protections for pre-existing conditions, but they really don't work without the mandate or you only have sick people buying insurance.  I don't see the insurance lobby letting the pre-existing conditions clauses stand and the mandate go away. And once you've got the mandate, you've got to have a way for poor people to get it, which leads to subsidies and/or medicaid expansion. Repeal is easy, replace not so much.





So the solution?  Many cite 'single payer'.  Unfortunately, this is a pipe dream with the new administration.  There has been absolutely no indication that it will even remotely be considered.  So don't get your hopes up.


 

The GOP doesn't think anything needs to fixed except that gov't should pay less of the cost. As to actually getting people access, consider that it took 25 years to move from the initial 'fight' over health insurance/healthcare access in the Clinton years to actually passing SOMETHING, which turned out to be a version of the Republican's opposition plan from the 90s. And it took all three branches of gov't to be held by Dems to even pass THAT.

T think single-payer is probably a pipe dream. The GOP will be eternally opposed on philosophical grounds, and enough Dems will be wishy washy that it won't pass even if the Dems eventually get all three branches back (unlikely in the next 4 years, and uncertain after that given how completely dominant the GOP is at all but the presidential level). Maybe after another 25 years. By that time I'll be too old to care.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2016, 04:36:12 PM »
Why is the conversation is always about insurance.  Insurance does not provide healthcare.  Insurance is a middleman the pays for healthcare and takes a cut in the process.  The discussion needs to be regarding cost.  If we fix cost, everything else will come into place.

SugarMountain

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2016, 04:56:54 PM »
I'm definitely not optimistic that single payer is in the offing.  I mean Medicare basically is single payer and they want to convert that to Obamacare for the elderly.

I just looked at our state's Obamacare exchange to see what I'd be looking at if I wasn't working.  Basically $10-15k for a fairly high deductible plan for DW and I in our late forties.  I cannot imagine what private insurance would look like for us in our 70s or 80s. 

seattlecyclone

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2016, 05:06:13 PM »
Why is the conversation is always about insurance.  Insurance does not provide healthcare.  Insurance is a middleman the pays for healthcare and takes a cut in the process.  The discussion needs to be regarding cost.  If we fix cost, everything else will come into place.

Indeed. Under Obamacare, insurance companies are required to send at least 80% of the premiums they collect back to pay medical bills. That 80%, plus all the deductibles and coinsurance you might pay, doesn't end up with the insurance company, it instead goes right into the hands of doctors, hospitals, drug companies, etc.

So when we complain about the rising costs of health care, very little of that is directly related to insurance company profit. Instead it's a simple reflection of the fact that all the other players (doctors, hospitals, drug companies, etc.) are raising their prices.

The insurance system is indirectly a culprit, though. With so many people on plans that have small deductibles and coinsurance and out-of-pocket maximums, individuals have little incentive to care what their doctors are charging. If I'm paying for only 10% of the actual bill for an office visit, how much time am I going to spend calling around to see if I can find a doctor willing to charge $10 or $20 less? Not much. The problem is compounded by the fact that our patchwork of insurance systems means nobody is willing or able to tell you in advance what something will cost. Shopping around is not an easy task.

The insurance company isn't going to negotiate very hard either, because the more the doctor charges, the more they can charge for premiums, which increases the size of the 20% they get to keep. As long as they negotiate for rates that are in the same ballpark as what the other carriers are getting, they're happy.

If you switch to a "single payer" system you have the ability to set centralized price controls, and you get all the good and bad things that come along with that.

Monkey Uncle

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2016, 04:30:17 AM »
We all pay for our health care one way or another. Either through insurance premiums, taxes, or actual cost. The problem with insurance is that you pay through a middle man who gets their cut. The problem with government funded health insurance is that beurocracy increases cost. Unfortunately obamacare or any other proposal still has no discussion regarding cost. Until we deal with cost, health insurance will always be unaffordable to the poor.

Instead of fixing insurance we need to fix cost by decreasing regulations, creating transparency, and minimizing the need for a middleman.

The bolded statement is at odds with the experience of every other civilized nation in the world.  They have better healthcare outcomes than the US, at a much lower cost.  Why?  Because the single payer (government bureaucracy) has complete power over the costs.  Of course, too much cost control can lead to other problems with availability of care, but most countries seem to have worked out a balance there.  There will always be horror stories about waiting years for elective surgery, but on the whole the citizens of those countries seem to be satisfied with their health care.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2016, 04:54:16 AM »
We all pay for our health care one way or another. Either through insurance premiums, taxes, or actual cost. The problem with insurance is that you pay through a middle man who gets their cut. The problem with government funded health insurance is that beurocracy increases cost. Unfortunately obamacare or any other proposal still has no discussion regarding cost. Until we deal with cost, health insurance will always be unaffordable to the poor.

Instead of fixing insurance we need to fix cost by decreasing regulations, creating transparency, and minimizing the need for a middleman.

The bolded statement is at odds with the experience of every other civilized nation in the world.  They have better healthcare outcomes than the US, at a much lower cost.  Why?  Because the single payer (government bureaucracy) has complete power over the costs.  Of course, too much cost control can lead to other problems with availability of care, but most countries seem to have worked out a balance there.  There will always be horror stories about waiting years for elective surgery, but on the whole the citizens of those countries seem to be satisfied with their health care.

Are people truly unhappy with the healthcare they receive in the U.S.?  I mean there will always be horror stories about how much it costs or how that new drug from Norway is taking too long to be approved for trials, but on the whole aren't most of the citizens overall satisfied with their health care?  There are rooms for improvements in many areas, but overall are people seem to be mostly content, despite the outcomes and price.

jim555

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2016, 05:12:07 AM »
-The provisions of the ACA will still be fully operational on December 2, 2018.
See this: "GOP may delay Obamacare replacement for years"
I am planning on 2 more years of ACA.  Hopefully we get 3.  They can't do 2017 (too late) and 2018 (mid-terms, avoid the fallout).

wenchsenior

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2016, 09:40:09 AM »
Much less will change than many people think.

Popular federal programs just do not get voted out of existence very easily (and most of the provisions of the ACA are quite popular). People have been trying to kill Social Security and Medicare for decades without much success.

A Republican senate, congress and president doesn't mean anything. All the congressmen and 1/3 of senators are facing reelection in 2018. They are not going to vote for anything that will endanger their reelection prospects just because Trump or Ryan say so.

My predictions:

-The provisions of the ACA will still be fully operational on December 2, 2018.
See this: "GOP may delay Obamacare replacement for years"

-If major legislation fundamentally overhauling health care is not passed by June 30, 2017, no such legislation will be passed while Donald Trump is president. It's a lot easier to pass major bills early, especially on something as complicated as health care. If they can't do it now, they'll probably never do it.

I disagree somewhat. I think they will immediately vote for a repeal, with the provision that the law sunsets immediately AFTER the 2018 midterms. My prediction is that this will pass. Then they will have 2 years to muck around with replacements and tweaks, and all the people who would lose insurance won't lose it until after the election (the Senate map in 2018 favors more GOP pick ups than it did this year). I think they will also try to gut Medicare immediately, but my prediction is that this will not pass with the Senate majority so thin. 

What I'm really hoping is that Medicare gutting can't pass, but that part of this legislation that is acceptable enough to pass includes fixes to make SS solvent again. I really have no idea what the odds are on that, though.

The next opportunity will be the 2018 midterms, depending on what happens. Often there is voter backlash against one-party government, so it's possible they will lose the Senate then, despite the fact that the map is going to favor GOP pickups rather than losses. Less likely they lose the House. And of course there is no predicting the "Trump factor".  I suspect if they are worried about holding power, you are correct that they won't try anything before the election. Afterwards, they might have an opportunity again, depending on the midterm outcomes.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2016, 01:46:13 PM »
Maybe he will just press the button and we won't have to stress so much over all of this insurance mess.

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2016, 04:29:44 PM »
We all pay for our health care one way or another. Either through insurance premiums, taxes, or actual cost. The problem with insurance is that you pay through a middle man who gets their cut. The problem with government funded health insurance is that beurocracy increases cost. Unfortunately obamacare or any other proposal still has no discussion regarding cost. Until we deal with cost, health insurance will always be unaffordable to the poor.

Instead of fixing insurance we need to fix cost by decreasing regulations, creating transparency, and minimizing the need for a middleman.

The bolded statement is at odds with the experience of every other civilized nation in the world.  They have better healthcare outcomes than the US, at a much lower cost.  Why?  Because the single payer (government bureaucracy) has complete power over the costs.  Of course, too much cost control can lead to other problems with availability of care, but most countries seem to have worked out a balance there.  There will always be horror stories about waiting years for elective surgery, but on the whole the citizens of those countries seem to be satisfied with their health care.

Are people truly unhappy with the healthcare they receive in the U.S.?  I mean there will always be horror stories about how much it costs or how that new drug from Norway is taking too long to be approved for trials, but on the whole aren't most of the citizens overall satisfied with their health care?  There are rooms for improvements in many areas, but overall are people seem to be mostly content, despite the outcomes and price.

I'm truly unhappy with the cost of my U.S. healthcare.  In a year when my family had no real medical issues, we are on track to pay over $5,700 for health care, which is about 14% of our total spending for the year.  Most of that is premiums for my employer-provided insurance.  My employer kicks in another $12,700 for insurance, money which presumably would otherwise show up in my salary.  Counting those funds, health care makes up a whopping 35% of my total spending.  And to repeat, this is in a year when my family has had no major medical issues.

I can't really speak to outcomes on a personal level due to general good health, but the statistics show that US outcomes are far worse than in every other developed nation.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2016, 05:07:59 PM by Monkey Uncle »

Cassie

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2016, 04:52:59 PM »
If they screw with Medicare or SS they will get voted out in 2018. I don't know about the ACA because since premiums have gotten so high people are unhappy with it anyways.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2016, 05:59:07 PM »
I'm truly unhappy with the cost of my U.S. healthcare.  In a year when my family had no real medical issues, we are on track to pay over $5,700 for health care, which is about 14% of our total spending for the year.  Most of that is premiums for my employer-provided insurance.  My employer kicks in another $12,700 for insurance, money which presumably would otherwise show up in my salary.  Counting those funds, health care makes up a whopping 35% of my total spending.  And to repeat, this is in a year when my family has had no major medical issues.

I can't really speak to outcomes on a personal level due to general good health, but the statistics show that US outcomes are far worse than in every other developed nation.

Affordable care act is a misnomer. It is only affordable if you get subsidized. For the middle class it is quite unaforfable. Something has to give.

I am skeptical of a national health care system for 2 reasons
If it is like the VA then we are all in trouble. The VA just doesn't work well.
If it is like medicaid, I am concerned as it will place many providers out of business. For many Medicaid pays less than what it costs to provide the service.
Therefor a national single payer needs to be different than the above two options.

The way I see it, the only way to fix healthcare is to decrease cost and right now the middle man taking an 80% cut which excludes the cost of managing the insurance company and the overbearing regulations are making cost cutting practically impossible. Eliminate that and minimize unnecessary wasteful end of life procedures and the cost of healthcare will plummet. Include total transparency so that patients can shop around for non-emergency care and competition will take care of the rest.

Throwing in a single payer system if better than the VA or Medicaid may help as well though again I am skeptical.

As for the comment above about Fat-FIRE. I am all for it and planning on it as well. I am happy to work an extra year or two to make it happen.

Monkey Uncle

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2016, 06:07:05 PM »
I am skeptical of a national health care system for 2 reasons
If it is like the VA then we are all in trouble. The VA just doesn't work well.
If it is like medicaid, I am concerned as it will place many providers out of business. For many Medicaid pays less than what it costs to provide the service.
Therefor a national single payer needs to be different than the above two options.

There are dozens of successful examples around the world.  It shouldn't be too hard; we don't have to re-invent the wheel.

The way I see it, the only way to fix healthcare is to decrease cost and right now the middle man taking an 80% cut which excludes the cost of managing the insurance company and the overbearing regulations are making cost cutting practically impossible. Eliminate that and minimize unnecessary wasteful end of life procedures and the cost of healthcare will plummet. Include total transparency so that patients can shop around for non-emergency care and competition will take care of the rest.

I tend to agree with you about eliminating wasteful end of life procedures, but any effort to do that would immediately elicit "death panel" hysteria.  I guess we need some effective way to encourage everyone to have a living will.  I suspect most people, if they took time to think about it, would prefer to have the plug pulled instead of lingering on after all hope of recovery is gone.

What are you referring to when you speak of the 80% middle man cut?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2016, 03:59:15 AM by Monkey Uncle »

Metric Mouse

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2016, 04:14:08 AM »
Are there any numbers on the overall percentage of healthcare costs that are 'end of life' prolonging?  It's such a tricky line between saying "Sorry, you've got terminal cancer, best to get your affairs in order. Don't buy any ripe bananas" and "Sure Great Aunt Betty, we'll keep you on respirator and IV drugs and dialysis and perform bilateral arm amputations for that gout - should keep you alive for a few weeks while we hope for the heart transplant.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable drawing that line for other people; Living wills would reduce some of this, but I'm still conflicted on if cost should be a driver of care.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2016, 06:42:00 AM by Metric Mouse »

Monkey Uncle

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2016, 06:18:32 AM »
Are there any numbers on the overall percentage of healthcare costs that are 'end of life' prolonging?  It's such a tricky line between saying "SOrry, you've got terminal cancer, best to get your affairs in order. Don't buy any ripe bananas" and "Sure Great Aunt Betty, we'll keep you on respirator and IV drugs and dialysis and perform bilateral arm amputations for that gout - should keep you alive for a few weeks while we hope for the heart transplant.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable drawing that line for other people; Living wills would reduce some of this, but I'm still conflicted on if cost should be a driver of care.

Yeah, I'm comfortable drawing the line for myself, but not so much for other people.

greengardens

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2016, 06:49:44 AM »
If you're interested or concerned about cost and end of life care I suggest reading Being Mortal by Atul Gawande. It focuses on the issues and costs with the care we provide the elderly and their families. I'm only half way through but it brings up a lot of great points

EnjoyIt

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2016, 09:10:27 AM »
I am skeptical of a national health care system for 2 reasons
If it is like the VA then we are all in trouble. The VA just doesn't work well.
If it is like medicaid, I am concerned as it will place many providers out of business. For many Medicaid pays less than what it costs to provide the service.
Therefor a national single payer needs to be different than the above two options.

There are dozens of successful examples around the world.  It shouldn't be too hard; we don't have to re-invent the wheel.

The way I see it, the only way to fix healthcare is to decrease cost and right now the middle man taking an 80% cut which excludes the cost of managing the insurance company and the overbearing regulations are making cost cutting practically impossible. Eliminate that and minimize unnecessary wasteful end of life procedures and the cost of healthcare will plummet. Include total transparency so that patients can shop around for non-emergency care and competition will take care of the rest.

I tend to agree with you about eliminating wasteful end of life procedures, but any effort to do that would immediately elicit "death panel" hysteria.  I guess we need some effective way to encourage everyone to have a living will.  I suspect most people, if they took time to think about it, would prefer to have the plug pulled instead of lingering on after all hope of recovery is gone.

What are you referring to when you speak of the 80% middle man cut?

My mistake it is the 20% percent middle man cut. It is the profit an insurance company is allowed to take according to the affordable care act.

As for copying other countries one payer policy, I don't think it is that simple since we don't live in a bubble. We have a system in place today and simply jumping to another may not be that easy. Our one payer policy for the VA is a disgrace. We fail our veterans. Our Medicaid payments are to low to cover the cost of providing care. The problem isn't necessarily the payer. It is the cost of providing health care. who pays does not change cost. the profit margin with our current expensive system for hospitals is on the order of 1-3%. Cutting payments to these facilities would quickly run them out of business. Same goes for many physician practices. Again in this country the payer is not necessarily the problem. It is the very expensive cost of providing healthcare that is the issue.

For example a surgeon removing a gallbladder gets paid ~$300 this includes the 2 hour procedure the evaluation in the hospital and follow up office visits. If there are any complications requiring further surgery or care the surgeon will manage those for free. From that $300 the surgeon will also have to pay his secretary, his coder and biller, his nurse, and the IT guy to manage his mandated computers system. The surgeon will also need to pay rent, electricity, internet and phone bills. I almost forgot malpractice insurance. Is the surgeon getting paid too much?  A radiologist gets paid about ~$10 for reading an X-ray is that too much? An ER doctor will get paid ~$45 for treating someone's cold or headache. I will admit that some specialities are making a killing such a brain and spine surgeons but I think if you devoted 6-8 years of your life in residency to perform intricate surgical procedures, you deserve to get paid a fortune for it. Otherwise why put yourself through the stress or hassle of such a brutal residency?

Monkey Uncle

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2016, 03:59:38 AM »
My mistake it is the 20% percent middle man cut. It is the profit an insurance company is allowed to take according to the affordable care act.

As for copying other countries one payer policy, I don't think it is that simple since we don't live in a bubble. We have a system in place today and simply jumping to another may not be that easy. Our one payer policy for the VA is a disgrace. We fail our veterans. Our Medicaid payments are to low to cover the cost of providing care. The problem isn't necessarily the payer. It is the cost of providing health care. who pays does not change cost. the profit margin with our current expensive system for hospitals is on the order of 1-3%. Cutting payments to these facilities would quickly run them out of business. Same goes for many physician practices. Again in this country the payer is not necessarily the problem. It is the very expensive cost of providing healthcare that is the issue.

For example a surgeon removing a gallbladder gets paid ~$300 this includes the 2 hour procedure the evaluation in the hospital and follow up office visits. If there are any complications requiring further surgery or care the surgeon will manage those for free. From that $300 the surgeon will also have to pay his secretary, his coder and biller, his nurse, and the IT guy to manage his mandated computers system. The surgeon will also need to pay rent, electricity, internet and phone bills. I almost forgot malpractice insurance. Is the surgeon getting paid too much?  A radiologist gets paid about ~$10 for reading an X-ray is that too much? An ER doctor will get paid ~$45 for treating someone's cold or headache. I will admit that some specialities are making a killing such a brain and spine surgeons but I think if you devoted 6-8 years of your life in residency to perform intricate surgical procedures, you deserve to get paid a fortune for it. Otherwise why put yourself through the stress or hassle of such a brutal residency?

I'd like to know where in the US you're finding such low prices for health care.  In my experience, there is no way anyone is getting in and out of an ER for $45, or getting an X-ray read for $10.  A simple office visit, in which no procedures are performed and you might speak to the doctor for 15 minutes, typically runs $150 - $200.  A few years ago, my son had a routine laparoscopic appendectomy.  He spent the night in the ER, had the surgery the next morning, and was admitted to the hospital for less than 24 hours.  The total bill for that adventure approached $20,000.  I don't remember the breakdown for everything, but I'm pretty sure the surgeon charged a lot more than $300.

You say the problem is the "cost of care," but then claim that neither the hospitals or providers are making any money.  Where is all the money going?

Who pays definitely can change the cost, if the payer has the power to set the prices.  Which is what has happened under most single-payer systems around the world.  As you say, that can be a dangerous thing if you don't allow enough for providers and hospitals to stay solvent.  But it seems to be working elsewhere.  The biggest problem we would have with transitioning to single payer is putting the insurance companies out of business.  What do you do with all those people who would lose their jobs?  And that's why single payer wasn't even considered when the ACA was written.

former player

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2016, 05:14:20 AM »
Part of the problem is the insane administration costs.  ACA limits insurance company admin costs and profits to 20% of premiums.  But for every health insurance company's admin costs there are equal and opposite admin costs for the health providers.   So from an individuals' health insurance premiums 20% goes to the insurance company and 80% to the health providers.  But 20% of that 80% also goes on admin costs.  So you are down to only two-thirds of insurance premiums actually going to the provision of health services.  Then you take off the percentage of that which goes to overheads and medical staff other than doctors.  I think in the USA doctors get about 9% of health care costs?

The most obvious problems on the cost side seem to be insane admin costs and futile and distressing over-treatment at the end of life.

OurTown

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2016, 07:00:31 AM »
"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."

farmecologist

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2016, 08:39:31 AM »
Part of the problem is the insane administration costs.  ACA limits insurance company admin costs and profits to 20% of premiums.  But for every health insurance company's admin costs there are equal and opposite admin costs for the health providers.   So from an individuals' health insurance premiums 20% goes to the insurance company and 80% to the health providers.  But 20% of that 80% also goes on admin costs.  So you are down to only two-thirds of insurance premiums actually going to the provision of health services.  Then you take off the percentage of that which goes to overheads and medical staff other than doctors.  I think in the USA doctors get about 9% of health care costs?

The most obvious problems on the cost side seem to be insane admin costs and futile and distressing over-treatment at the end of life.


Exactly this.  Thanks for bringing it up!

Hospitals employ entire departments of people just to deal with insurance providers.  Paperwork, coinsurance issues, bill negotiation, etc...  This is one of those 'hidden costs' that really adds up. 

   




Gin1984

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2016, 09:05:17 AM »
I was unhappy with US healthcare until the ACA because I was unable to get healthcare outside of an employee/employer situation which limits what jobs I can take, and does mean that no matter how much I save, I'll never be financially independent.  I aged off of my mom's insurance while in school and could not get any insurance for any amount of money on the "free market".  Therefore I went with COBRA.  I spent over 30% of my income on premiums and felt lucky I had anything.  I was terrified of what I was going to do once I lost COBRA.  I ended up getting married, early, to get get health insurance.  My husband picked a certain school for grad school over another because it had spousal insurance. 
People here have been lucky, to be healthy, to not need to work a job that hurts them, to have employer subsidized insurance.  There are a lot of people who got help by the ACA so to see people complain that they have to pay the full cost and can't just take advantage of the socialism in this country which says you'll still be able to get emergency care if you don't pay for insurance while people who want  insurance are left out in the cold because you don't want to pay in, to the country that is benefiting you.  It seems like one of the most selfish attitudes I have ever come across.  You should not have access because I'd have to pay full price.  It does change my opinions of people.  I've stopped going to certain blogs because of it. 
I'm sure that won't change anyone's actions but that is how I feel.

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Sibley

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2016, 09:24:34 AM »
Not all of the insurance companies are for profit. There are nonprofits and other legal structures, and plenty of variety of philosophies across the board. And as several people have said, there are limitations on profit margins under ACA.

Regarding the admin costs at both the insurance company and provider levels - that is a real thing. There are several systems in place that I'm aware of that combine the two. The one I know the most about is Kaiser Permanente. These do have potential to significantly reduce costs and improve care because of lower combined overhead and better care coordination. One of the problems, or effects at least, is that they don't get really big and cover geographically. That becomes a problem for people who travel, move away from the facilities, don't like the doctors in their area,  etc. You also have to get doctor buy in. Kaiser did this by being doctor-owned, I don't know about the others that exist. But if the doctors aren't ok with the combo, then it'll fail.

Care coordination in general can significantly reduce costs while also improving care, if it's done right. It's tricky to get it right, but there are plenty of examples of it working.

One of the roadblocks to combining the insurance company and provider is regulatory hurdles. The health insurance industry is HEAVILY regulated, and most of it is actually at the State level. Yes, Medicare and ACA, and some of Medicaid, have federal regulations, but probably the bulk is State. If the state doesn't allow an entity like Kaiser to form, you can't even experiment to see if it works.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2016, 10:46:50 AM »
Part of the problem is the insane administration costs.  ACA limits insurance company admin costs and profits to 20% of premiums.  But for every health insurance company's admin costs there are equal and opposite admin costs for the health providers.   So from an individuals' health insurance premiums 20% goes to the insurance company and 80% to the health providers.  But 20% of that 80% also goes on admin costs.  So you are down to only two-thirds of insurance premiums actually going to the provision of health services.  Then you take off the percentage of that which goes to overheads and medical staff other than doctors.  I think in the USA doctors get about 9% of health care costs?

The most obvious problems on the cost side seem to be insane admin costs and futile and distressing over-treatment at the end of life.

I've never heard an MLR interpretation that includes provider-side administration costs.

https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/medical-loss-ratio-MLR/

Quote
If an insurer uses 80 cents out of every premium dollar to pay its customers' medical claims and activities that improve the quality of care, the company has a medical loss ratio of 80%/

Provider admin costs are included in their fees for services, which are paid out as insurance claims. There's no way to separate out an admin cost from a medical cost without looking at each provider, and each claim, individually. Thus, as long as the insurer is paying 80% of premium dollars on medical claims (or "activities that improve the quality of care"), they're safe.

golden1

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2016, 11:19:20 AM »
Romneycare has been fairly successful in MA, with I think 97% of people covered.  Costs are still rising though, but if you navigate the system, you can work around it. My employer rotates between the three biggest insurers, Tufts, Harvard Pilgrim, and BCBS.  We join one of them, and lock in the rate for that year or maybe two years, and then they jack up premiums 15% or so so we switch to the same plan at a different company.  Most of the doctors and covered treatments overlap on these plans, but not all and it can get expensive, fast.  This year, my company decided to go for a higher deductible plan and just pay the deductible to save money.  I am not sure how the private market works, but I do know my in-laws liked it at first but now are grumbling about the cost. 

   

hogfanboy

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2016, 03:28:16 PM »
Speaking of the rule  that Insurance companies have to pay out 80% of the intake  and can only keep 20% for admin cost

I have a friend that has worked  for a couple different health companies that bill insurance.  And Blue Cross in our state does some odd and different from all there insurance companies.

Instead  of paying  the negotiated rate,   They pay the  full  billed amount  but their agreement with these 2 companies that my friend works for is  that after  30 days they remit  $  down to the negotiated rate.  (e.g. they pay 100% up front and then get a 50% refund 30 days later)

We wonder why they do this  (is it to get around the 80% rule.
or are they screwing their customers (e.g If  my insurance covers 70% and my copay is 30%) , they  show me the full bill which I pay 30% on, but they get a kick back later which means I'm really paying more than 30% of the negotiated rate?

These 2 possible reasons seem highly illegal so I can't believe those are the reason.  So my friend and myself are at a lost why  Blue cross  is the odd ball in their billing 

Metric Mouse

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2016, 06:08:04 PM »
I am not sure how the private market works, but I do know my in-laws liked it at first but now are grumbling about the cost. 


I saw a stat that this year health care spending rose at the highest rate since 2007. So expenses do seem to be going up faster than is ideal.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2016, 06:04:05 AM »
I am not sure how the private market works, but I do know my in-laws liked it at first but now are grumbling about the cost. 


I saw a stat that this year health care spending rose at the highest rate since 2007. So expenses do seem to be going up faster than is ideal.

Spending on care delivered to patients, premiums or some other number?

Metric Mouse

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2016, 06:12:19 AM »
Spending on care delivered to patients, premiums or some other number?

Great friggin' question!

From my source: "the combined amount spent on health care by all players, including the federal government, individuals, businesses, and state and local governments.

Total U.S. health spending reached nearly $10,000 per person last year, up 5% from the prior year. And as a share of the economy, it rose to 17.8% of GDP, up from 17.4% in 2014.

Meanwhile, out-of-pocket costs for individuals (e.g., copays, coinsurance, deductibles and money spent on non-covered services) rose 2.6% to $338.1 billion. That's up from a 1.4% growth rate in 2014. "

CNN

wenchsenior

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2016, 07:35:52 AM »
Health costs/spending rise every year, but during the first 5 or so years after recession there was a big flattening of those increases. Some said it was due to ACA, but I believe most analysts thought it was a side effect of the recession. Question is, is the extra big jump this year due to 'catch up' from the lag, or is something else happening?

Gin1984

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Re: Coming changes to Obamacare & Medicare
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2016, 08:25:38 AM »
Health costs/spending rise every year, but during the first 5 or so years after recession there was a big flattening of those increases. Some said it was due to ACA, but I believe most analysts thought it was a side effect of the recession. Question is, is the extra big jump this year due to 'catch up' from the lag, or is something else happening?
Has health costs increased during other (smaller) recessions?

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!