Author Topic: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER  (Read 13499 times)

Emilyngh

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College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« on: November 27, 2013, 06:51:03 AM »
I've noticed that there seem to be several college profs on here, and I was (a) curious to see how many, and (b) curious how we find the job in terms of MMM principles and ER.     I also imagine that this may vary depending on the type of position one has and how far into it they are.   Please, everyone feel free to chime in with comments,etc, regardless of your job (if you see parallels to your life, etc).


I work at a small undergrad liberal arts college as a tenure-track prof in a physical science.    My degrees are in engineering, and I did FT research for 4 years after my PhD (making bank), but decided my life was empty.     So, I took this job almost 4 years ago at a not prestigious small school.    I considered more research-focused school instead, but felt like that was too close to the rat race I was trying to leave.


While it would be very taboo for me to say to anyone I work with, I consider myself semi-retired.    Now that my classes are really put together, I don't work 40 hrs a week and have great flexibility with when I work.    I do do research with undergrads, but this tends to be slow, doesn't occur over breaks (like xmas), unless I get a grant (with extra salary) to work for about 1/2 the summer if I choose to.    Everyone where I work pretends they are doing scholarly work over the summer, but based on actual outputs, I doubt most aren't really pretty much taking the summer off.   So, even working 1/2 every other summer or so for extra pay, I should be set for tenure.

The area is very low-cost and lends itself well to a MM lifestyle.    The only major downside here is that my salary is not much over $50k.   This would be hard to have a super high savings level with with a family (and sah spouse).  But, as a semi-retired income, it's fine, imo.    Overall, I think it's a job well-aligned with MM principles.   As far as ER, I'm not sure if I will want to retire when I reach (FI); it'll probably depend on how much my colleagues are getting on my nerves.


« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 06:54:07 AM by Emilyngh »

Michread

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2013, 06:56:53 AM »
My dh is in sci. research.  He wants to "retire" to a job like yours in a few years (but non-tenure track)! 

Emilyngh

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2013, 09:30:52 AM »
Just curious, but why not tenure-track?   If it's b/c he assumes it'll be too stressful, I'd recommend he looks around.   My school has what I consider very low expectations for tenure (basically can't be horrible).   If he's willing to go to a less prestigious place for relatively low pay ($50kish in low col area), he might be surprised about how relaxed even a tenure-track position can be.    Even if he doesn't "need" the security of tenure, all other things being equal, it's still a nice benefit, imo.

forward

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2013, 10:18:04 AM »

Interesting topic for me Emilyngh as I think about similar things all of the time.  I am in the profession but am also in the middle of the rat race you mentioned.  It is not fun and I am really looking forward to the day I can get out. 

The things I think about each day are how fast can I reach FI and what should I do when I do.  I of course have my calculated projections but I also have a heavy dose of skeptisism that I will reach the projections.

I do wonder about being at an institution like yours.  Its good to know they are out there. 

In my current academic position I am able to save pretty aggresively.  But I look around at colleagues and think they also must be banking a lot of money too? 

Michread

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2013, 11:30:48 AM »
Just curious, but why not tenure-track?   If it's b/c he assumes it'll be too stressful, I'd recommend he looks around.   My school has what I consider very low expectations for tenure (basically can't be horrible).   If he's willing to go to a less prestigious place for relatively low pay ($50kish in low col area), he might be surprised about how relaxed even a tenure-track position can be.    Even if he doesn't "need" the security of tenure, all other things being equal, it's still a nice benefit, imo.

Tenure track = write research grants for $$; that's what tenure track means to him and he wants to teach and maybe do a little undergrad student research projects.  Maybe it doesn't, but he'll find out when he decides to change his current career.


Rural

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2013, 12:45:14 PM »
He should look at teaching institutions, not research institutions, if that's his focus. He'll find the whole environment more appealing at a place where teaching is valued.

SLACs, state colleges, basically institutions with many 4-year degrees and limited or no graduate degrees.

Emilyngh

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2013, 02:23:12 PM »

I do wonder about being at an institution like yours.  Its good to know they are out there. 


Oh, they definitely are, but b/c not much research comes out of them they seem to be off the radar of those in the research world, ime.    Once you get to one, you get to hear almost every conversation with colleagues come back to the low salary though (although ime, that low salary comes with close to complete autonomy and low stress and work requirements once one's established).    I get the impression that my colleagues have a romanticized notion of the higher paying jobs instead of realizing how good they have it.

Although, to be fair, the best of both worlds is working a high paying rat race for a few years, saving like mad to get financially established, and then semi-retiring.   It would be hard to reach FI (without a spouse who has a moderate-high income) without a previous higher paying job. I don't know your field, but to find positions with more of a teaching emphasis check the Chronicle of Higher Ed ads (vs discipline specific sites) and look for adds that don't mention externally funded research or "world renowned research" programs or sim language, but instead only refer to research with undergrads.

In my current academic position I am able to save pretty aggresively.  But I look around at colleagues and think they also must be banking a lot of money too?
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« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 02:56:02 PM by Emilyngh »

Emilyngh

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2013, 02:29:00 PM »

Tenure track = write research grants for $$; that's what tenure track means to him and he wants to teach and maybe do a little undergrad student research projects. 


There are absolutely no expectations for writing grants for external funding where I work, only for doing some work with undergrads.   I mean, I've written a couple of proposals (and gotten one small one funded), but that's b/c I'm an over-achiever, wanted extra money for equipment outisde of my startup funds and the internal money available, and I don't find the rest of the job too challenging, so I was willing to take on the extra project.   It is not expected/the norm where I work and I'll stop writing grant proposals if I ever lose interest in it.

2527

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2013, 02:44:27 PM »
Most professors I know worked into their 60s or 70s, because they had a nice life. There was no reason to retire early.

market timer

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2013, 12:59:10 AM »
This is my plan as well.  Wife and I have a nest egg of around $750K, mostly from my work in the private sector over the past 5 years.  Now looking to take a big pay cut in exchange for better hours at a university, so I can spend time with wife and newborn.  My wife is also a prof, so between the two of us, we should have flexibility to travel frequently, and the opportunity to do so with conferences.  Hopefully our current nest egg will be enough to fund retirement in 30 years without adding additional savings. 
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 01:01:07 AM by market timer »

Melody

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2013, 02:16:07 PM »
Interesting thread... Teaching at University is part of my ER strategy. (I don't want full ER, just more of a part time thing and financial freedom like you described... And the ability to travel. As short term contract teacher I can work all over Australia/South East Asia/New Zealand with the qualifications I am working towards.)

Gerard

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2013, 06:29:09 PM »
Professin's a pretty sweet life, especially up here in Canada where we're unionized and tenure is reasonably achievable. I get a lot of the benefits of retirement (flexible schedule, ludicrously relaxed dress code, travel, self-direction) and of a good job (benefits, good pay, DB pension, interactions with good people, interesting problems to address). I completely understand how people stay in the job into their 70s or 80s, but I'm looking forward to being done with it at some point.

One downside... the wall between "inside" and "outside" is crazy high. Once you leave, you rarely get to come back. That might be less true in terminal programmes (nursing, engineering, education, business, etc.).

backyardfeast

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2013, 10:53:17 PM »
I think cost of living where you choose is really important.  A professor salary on the east coast of Canada goes a lot farther than in Vancouver or Toronto.  IMO the best thing about the prof jobs here is that salaries seem roughly standardized across all institutions in the country, so if you can find a post in a smaller, cheaper location, you've got the potential for a good life.  And of course life in a college town is as good as it gets! :)

I'm with the OP.  I'm at a smaller, teaching university with little to no research pressure.  The teaching load is high, though, so life is pretty intense at particular times of the year, and I like my research, so I try to squeeze a little in during the down times.  I'm not in a tenure system, just a collective agreement.  So I get regular increments in salary until I hit top tier.  The con is that the top tier is lower than where it would be at a research university.  The big pro is that it's automatic--no tenure goals to make and, in my mind, way less stress.

It can be an intense job; I don't want to do it forever.  But 10 or so years and then any level of part time that I want for great pay?  Sounds good to me.

The main downside that I've come to recognize in terms of ER is that I was in school for so long that I'm 40 and am only just starting to make good $$!  DH in the trades has been making a good living since his 20s... Too bad we didn't have it together earlier!  But at least my student loans are small..

Gerard

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2013, 06:32:18 PM »
The main downside that I've come to recognize in terms of ER is that I was in school for so long that I'm 40 and am only just starting to make good $$! 

Oh, I hear you! Our departmental secretary has earned more in her lifetime than I have (and she's slightly younger than me). On the other hand, I had a lot of fun in those low-earning years...

meadow lark

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2013, 07:53:13 PM »
My stepfather is a religion prof at an ag school.  Definitely a SWAMI.  But he has always been a very prolific writer/editor/translator and grant writer.  He could skate by with very little work (tenured for the last 20+ years) but instead he is still passionate about his research.  He definitely feels out of place though at his school.  Over the course of his career, though, he would have made more being a nurse like my mother (and I.)

Albert

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2013, 12:05:20 AM »
People generally don't become professors for money. In small teaching schools mentioned in this thread it's because they love teaching and desire a more relaxed life style. In research institutions it's because of a passion for discovering new things, challenging themselves intellectually and becoming famous (rich too, but that is "side product").

ender

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2013, 07:22:25 AM »
People generally don't become professors for money. In small teaching schools mentioned in this thread it's because they love teaching and desire a more relaxed life style. In research institutions it's because of a passion for discovering new things, challenging themselves intellectually and becoming famous (rich too, but that is "side product").

Ideally yea ;) I'm sure plenty don't do this as being a professor can be a fairly lucrative career at larger state schools.

Honestly though for many people the work of a professor is more or less the types of things they want to ER for so I'd say if your interests are what professors do, then you might as well go ahead and be one :)

Albert

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2013, 09:16:32 AM »
Ideally yea ;) I'm sure plenty don't do this as being a professor can be a fairly lucrative career at larger state schools.

Right, but there are less stressful ways of making money than being a professor at elite institution.

By the way we employ several professors as consultants. The going rate is about 10k/day plus expenses (usually 2 days/year). Not a bad job if you can become famous enough to get industrial appointments like that. It rarely happens though until you are in your 40-ties and have worked like crazy for a decade and a half.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 11:02:09 AM by Albert »

chasesfish

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2013, 10:43:27 AM »
I have to admit, it seems very attractive to work hard into my early to mid 30s, save $1mil, then go back to school for an MBA and PhD to become a professor.  32-36 weeks worth of work, usually in a low cost area, with enough time off and earned income to support a travel habit.

jdoolin

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2013, 10:49:23 AM »
I am a Computer and Information Technology (CIT) instructor at a local community college, and it is without a doubt the very best job I've ever had and I have zero interest in ever leaving it.  I don't have the pressure of research, the schedule is RIDICULOUSLY easy, even when I take on extra work.  I love the interaction with people and I think I'm very good at what I do.  My wife (who is also a teacher) thinks I've found my calling.  I can say for certain that there are students that intentionally choose the classes I teach.  :-)

I've never been this enthusiastic about a job.  If you want to call it that.  Compared to the 9-5/M-F jobs I've had for the last 10 years, this is barely work.  It's just too much fun and too easy going.  Like someone else said earlier, I already feel semi-retired. 

On top of that, one of my colleagues is what I would call a near-SWAMI himself.  We both worked for a previous employer together.  He and I are both very ambitious, optimistic, hard working and passionate.  We both have a long term goal of making the CIT program at our college a destination for our area.  It's already a good program but we plan to make it amazing, and the wheels are already turning.  Our enrollment is up, graduation rates and retention are higher and we're establishing more relationships with local businesses and industry so students have jobs waiting for them.

It's nowhere near the best paying job I've ever had, but the schedule makes up for that.  My wife makes more than I do teaching at a middle school, but she also has more time there.  Between the two of us we make just a bit more than the US median household income.  A lot of other instructors there complain about the money, but it turns out you can teach more classes and Course Learning Contracts and all of a sudden you're making another 15% more, not to mention the opportunity for side gigs during the summer or even when classes are in session.  I do consulting here and there.

We also live in a VERY low cost of living area.  Like when people say theirs are low, most of the time we look at the numbers and think they are high.  We just bought a house for as much as some people need for a downpayment in other areas of the country.  So this is an outstanding place to live an MMM lifestyle and achieve FIRE.  Our projected FIRE date is in about 12 years.

So yeah, I'm loving this combination of location and job.

decisionprof

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2013, 12:50:37 PM »
I am a fairly new tenure-track prof (Education Dept.) at a very small private liberal arts college.  I was formerly a public school teacher and administrator for over 20 years.  I definitely consider myself semi-retired at this point.  I used to work at least 50-60 hours a week (usually more) and I it felt like I was always "on call"- 12 months a year.  I loved my job - but I now love what I have found to be MUCH more important to me - and that is TIME.  I now teach 12 hours and have 4 or 5 office hours per week, along with monthly committee and faculty meetings.  My schedule has me on campus 3 days a week (for part of the day) and "working" from home (answering a few emails, grading some papers) two days a week.  I have a few side "gigs" teaching (well learning how to teach!) on-line and I have a lot more time to manage the paperwork associated with our rental properties.  My DH just retired this month (and does the property maintenance when I am at the college working) and now together we have TIME to go and do all of the things we like to do.  Our stress levels are dramatically reduced from what they were just a year ago. 

My 60K salary is not even close to what my 20+ year public school salary was but I do make much more per day now.  My doctorate was in decision analysis so I didn't make the change without thorough consideration.  We have also worked hard over the last 18 months to cut expenses and increase savings.  One other bonus - TUITION EXCHANGE.  We have two high school age children who can benefit from free tuition at close to 500 colleges...

The biggest issue bothering me about my job now is the incredible amount of waste that I see at the college.  It is no wonder that tuition is out of control.  In the public schools, we watched EVERY PENNY we spent and managed our resources incredibly well.  I could go on and on but it frustrates me more than you could imagine.  I have even considered leaving and going back to K-12 Education because of my frugal nature and the disconnect I feel with all of the waste and poor planning.  (When I think about my summers/vacations/levels of stress.... I quickly remind myself that this is just a job until I can retire....)

Rural

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2013, 06:35:49 PM »
The biggest issue bothering me about my job now is the incredible amount of waste that I see at the college.  It is no wonder that tuition is out of control.  In the public schools, we watched EVERY PENNY we spent and managed our resources incredibly well.  I could go on and on but it frustrates me more than you could imagine.  I have even considered leaving and going back to K-12 Education because of my frugal nature and the disconnect I feel with all of the waste and poor planning.  (When I think about my summers/vacations/levels of stress.... I quickly remind myself that this is just a job until I can retire....)

If it helps, this varies wildly by institution; it's not endemic to higher ed. My institution pinches pennies pretty hard, as do many of the others in our university system, though I don't know about the education departments specifically.

And of course, frugality is far from universal in secondary, but you probably know that.

C. K.

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2013, 10:58:54 PM »
I hail from a family of teachers and professors and never wanted to emulate them career-wise.

However, you have all given me a new perspective on the profession. I'll consider teaching for semi-retirement.

Ambergris

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2013, 02:41:26 PM »
I'm a tenured prof at a research 1 state university. 

The real pressure in my job comes from my research expectations.  Although I'm not in the hard sciences and don't have to push out big grant proposals, I'm in a field where publishing is hard and each paper takes a lot of effort.  I find myself at times facing writer's block or otherwise being "stuck" due to the sheer difficulty of the problems I am trying to solve; this is a big challenge for me and the main thing I would like to stop.

The rest of my job (most of teaching, advising, committees etc) is not terribly demanding in terms of stress, just in terms of time.

The other big issue for me is the lack of jobs in the academic world.  I'm sort of stuck where I am, a long way away from my family (although the town I live in is nice).  I consequently feel a bit isolated.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 01:06:26 PM by Ambergris »

rachael talcott

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2013, 03:57:29 PM »
I'm also a tenured prof, but at a private not-very-competitive university.  My field is biology.  The amount of work for me has been highly variable.  If you're assigned to teach something you've never taught before and don't know much about, you pretty much have to teach yourself from the textbook before you teach your students.  I did this last year with an accelerated content-heavy course and I worked really long intense hours.  But right now I don't have anything new and it's a light load.  Some of that time goes into making my classes better, but if I'm tired I can go home early and there's not much lost. 

I'm expected to do research with undergrads, but there isn't really pressure to publish very much or bring in more than small grants.  I find the research part of my job a lot of fun.

The worst part of the job is not being able to choose where you live.  You pretty much have to do a national search and if you're lucky you might get to choose between a few options.  I don't really fit in with the culture here -- women are expected to make having and raising kids the center of their life, and I have no interest in that.  I'm saving to ER and travel, but it's not a bad life in the meantime.   

Salary is good (mid 60's) considering it's 9 months of work and cost of living is really low.  Also, because I have summers off, I fix up old houses to rent during the summer. 




sol

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2013, 06:34:29 PM »
The other big issue for me is the lack of jobs in the academic world.

This is the biggest reason why I discourage my students from pursuing academic careers.  We create far more PhDs than we have academic jobs.

Even when I was still in graduate school it was pretty clear that for a stable sized professor workforce, every tenured professor should get to generate exactly ONE PhD student over the course of a career, if we expect PhD students to get jobs as professors.  Since most profs generate 10 to 15 graduate students, and some well over a hundred, it's pretty clear that most of those PhDs are not going to get teaching jobs.

And to make it even more inequitable, PhD students from backwater universities are not going to get tenure track jobs at R1 schools, even if we only were to generate one PhD per professor.  Instead, a larger percentage of PhD students from the nation's top 20 or schools are going to get all of the professor jobs, while most state school graduates are going to have to find other lines of work. 

But attend any graduate student "career" event and you never see this imbalance mentioned.  It's always about how to seek a tenure track job, when and how much to publish, how to find a postdoc, how to collaborate, how to tailor your CV to openings.  It's like tenured professors believe that being a tenured professor is the highest and best job anyone could ever get, so they try to create little clones of themselves without realizing that MOST of their students will fail to reproduce their success, or would be happier (and wealthier) pursuing non-academic employment.  It's a vicious cycle, in which the successful minority ensures an oversupply of labor in their own field.

Why are our best and brightest students taught from freshman year onwards that they should live a life of deprivation and poverty for all of their 20s and 30s, working slave hours for slave wages, so that they might someday get a tenured job at around age 40?  Isn't there a better path for people who are that smart, that motivated, that dedicated, that driven?

BZB

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2013, 07:04:45 PM »
We create far more PhDs than we have academic jobs.

Yes - I just recently stepped off the academia treadmill after realizing I
a. wasn't having fun any more
b. was unlikely to ever get a tenure track position, and if I did I'd have to move my family to who-knows-where and have ~ 7 years of soul-crushing stress to try to get tenure, and might not make it even then

Luckily my university had been teaching grad students and postdocs about "alternate" careers, and I found a job where I could apply my skills

Ambergris

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2013, 08:07:31 PM »
The other big issue for me is the lack of jobs in the academic world.
Even when I was still in graduate school it was pretty clear that for a stable sized professor workforce, every tenured professor should get to generate exactly ONE PhD student over the course of a career, if we expect PhD students to get jobs as professors.  Since most profs generate 10 to 15 graduate students, and some well over a hundred, it's pretty clear that most of those PhDs are not going to get teaching jobs.

And to make it even more inequitable, PhD students from backwater universities are not going to get tenure track jobs at R1 schools, even if we only were to generate one PhD per professor.  Instead, a larger percentage of PhD students from the nation's top 20 or schools are going to get all of the professor jobs, while most state school graduates are going to have to find other lines of work. 

You know, I'd never thought about it that way, but you're right.  I have no PhD students, thankfully (we've rejected establishing a PhD program in my dept multiple times despite a administration-level push for more graduate students) but I do have undergrads who constantly ask me to write letters for them to go to grad school.  I always tell them not to bother unless they can get into a top 20 or even top 10 ranked school in their primary research area.  What alarms me is how few of them listen.

The result is the vast numbers of low paid adjuncts and post-docs who hang on hoping to get something, wasting years of their life without decent pay or benefits.

sol

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2013, 09:34:51 PM »
The result is the vast numbers of low paid adjuncts and post-docs who hang on hoping to get something, wasting years of their life without decent pay or benefits.

Yes, and those people viciously competing with each other for $36k/year postdoc positions (aka temp positions) are there because they were the "smartest" kids at their high schools and colleges and yet were somehow duped into believing that academia is the the best path available to them.

Meanwhile, that kid from your high school's football team who never made it past algebra now owns a car dealership and is building a custom kitchen in his vacation home so his wife has somewhere nice to stand while ordering pizza. 

There are lots of different ways to measure success, and I commend tenured profs who truly love their work and want to teach til they're 90.  But the whole process of suffering through seven years of grad school then four years of postdocs then six years on the tenure clock before you ever get a real job is rough. 

MMM retired to raise a family long before your average prof ever gets a real job.  Why do we punish our best and brightest with such a shitty career arc?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 09:37:11 PM by sol »

nikki

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2013, 10:12:51 PM »
The result is the vast numbers of low paid adjuncts and post-docs who hang on hoping to get something, wasting years of their life without decent pay or benefits.

Greetings! Former low paid adjunct here! English department represent. So we're really talking bottom-of-the-barrel. I made $22,000 a year before taxes for a full-time load.

Then I moved to South Korea, where I teach middle school, make more than that, and have free rent.

Next year I'll be at a Korean university, where I'll make more than I do now, work less hours, and still have free rent.

Teaching at a university is absolutely my route to FI, so long as it's in another country ;-)

Rural

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2013, 05:16:01 AM »
I worked at my side business with some adjunct classes, mostly online (not a diploma mill, real actual public college with a brick and mortar campus and some online courses) until I landed a tenure track position within commuting distance of where we've made our home. But. That just doesn't happen. Ever. I never expected it to happen to me, and I had built up my business to the point where, while it would be nice, I didn't need it to happen. Which is probably why I got the job.

Dee18

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2013, 06:24:10 AM »
I moved to" who knows where" in ordered to be a tenured professor.  It was important for me to have the flexible schedule to be the mother I wanted to be.  But now, with no young children, I want to move to a city I would like more...which I will soon do as my youngest heads off to college and I reach ER (well,not really so E....)  I feel lucky to have had the choices I have had and I have really enjoyed teaching, but looking back I may have underestimated the importance of place. 

Albert

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2013, 11:42:03 AM »
Few comments about PhD's and postdocs (mine were in chemistry):

- if you want to be a professor in a research based school you better know it early and study yourself in an appropriate place. If you are that smart what hindered you doing your PhD in Harvard or MIT? If for some reason that was not possible doing a postdoc in one of the elite schools is a viable alternative albeit your first job is likely to be in a lower profile school. I was a postdoc in one of your Ivy league schools and there would have been no problem getting at least as far as an interview for an academic position in a midlevel (something like University of Arizona) had I wanted to and that despite me being a foreigner and obtaining my PhD from an average school.
- It's quite normal that most graduates go on to industrial positions. Professors understand that too, but of course they are proud if someone is willing to follow in their own footsteps
- It is to our advantage that the most brilliant people stay involved in scientific research

As and example what kind of people are meant for an academic career I can tell a story of a guy I met while doing my own PhD. He was an undergrad at the same good but nothing special university on a scholarship (family was recent immigrants), got straight A's in pretty much everything he touched except maybe English, did two years of undergrad research (2 papers), passed all the exams for grad school at 95% percentile or better. Got accepted in every school he applied to, chose Harvard, got a PhD there and after a postdoc in another Ivy league school is now an assistant professor in one of the best public universities in US. Brilliant guy, one of the smartest I've ever met.

By the way anyone here a professor in a top 30 school in US or comparable elsewhere?

elnion

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2013, 03:21:06 PM »
The result is the vast numbers of low paid adjuncts and post-docs who hang on hoping to get something, wasting years of their life without decent pay or benefits.

Yes, and those people viciously competing with each other for $36k/year postdoc positions (aka temp positions) are there because they were the "smartest" kids at their high schools and colleges and yet were somehow duped into believing that academia is the the best path available to them.

Meanwhile, that kid from your high school's football team who never made it past algebra now owns a car dealership and is building a custom kitchen in his vacation home so his wife has somewhere nice to stand while ordering pizza. 

There are lots of different ways to measure success, and I commend tenured profs who truly love their work and want to teach til they're 90.  But the whole process of suffering through seven years of grad school then four years of postdocs then six years on the tenure clock before you ever get a real job is rough. 

MMM retired to raise a family long before your average prof ever gets a real job.  Why do we punish our best and brightest with such a shitty career arc?

This.  I'm a graduate student in the sciences.  I am probably one of the better positioned to actually make it to a Tenure Track position.  I'm at a top university (University of Chicago); I'll have at least 5 papers by the time I graduate (although only 2-3 first author, so not quite amazing), and likely more if things keep up the way they've gone.  I've been awarded an NIH Training Grant and an NSF Fellowship.  Outside of my research, I'm the CTO of a non-profit that I started with some other university affiliates that does technology outreach.  I've already got at least some preliminary contacts to get a postdoc at a prestigious lab at Stanford.

And for all of that, there's only a decent chance I'll get a job somewhere I don't want to live making fairly small money (compared to the work I'd have put in to get there) which will require 7 years of immense work to likely get fire... *ahem* denied tenure.

I'm already starting to find my research boring, to boot, so it's probably off to start-up land after this, because at least it'll be more exciting (just launching the non-profit in my "spare" time has been more exciting than all of graduate school).

~James

market timer

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2013, 03:11:13 AM »
Why do we punish our best and brightest with such a shitty career arc?
It's just supply and demand.  If people don't want to be low-paid post-docs, they can try selling cars.  When you look at what the typical 20-something is doing, even the smart ones, I'm not sure the opportunity cost of grad school is even that great.

rachael talcott

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2013, 06:43:26 AM »
I never did a post-doc, even thought it's common for PhDs in my field, and I still managed to find at least one full-time faculty position each of the three times I went on the market.  Yes, if you go into history, english, or philosophy, you're unlikely to get a job -- other than low-paid adjunct positions.  But if you're in a STEM (science, technology, engineering, mathematics) field, are a reasonably good teacher, and are willing to move, you'll find work. 

Salaries sound bad, but remember they're for a 9-month work year.  The least I've been paid is 45K, which is 5K/month or 60K for a full-time year.  And that was in a place where I paid 80K for a nice house.  Now I make 65K, which would be 86K if it were for a full year. 

I tell students it's not for everybody.  You need to love your field.  You need to have patience to deal with students.  You need to be willing to live anywhere.  But if you fit that bill, it can be a really good life. 


Emilyngh

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2013, 08:16:48 AM »
I never did a post-doc, even thought it's common for PhDs in my field, and I still managed to find at least one full-time faculty position each of the three times I went on the market.  Yes, if you go into history, english, or philosophy, you're unlikely to get a job -- other than low-paid adjunct positions.  But if you're in a STEM (science, technology, engineering, mathematics) field, are a reasonably good teacher, and are willing to move, you'll find work. 

Salaries sound bad, but remember they're for a 9-month work year.  The least I've been paid is 45K, which is 5K/month or 60K for a full-time year.  And that was in a place where I paid 80K for a nice house.  Now I make 65K, which would be 86K if it were for a full year. 


I tell students it's not for everybody.  You need to love your field.  You need to have patience to deal with students.  You need to be willing to live anywhere.  But if you fit that bill, it can be a really good life.


All of this.   I'm in STEM.   I only looked for tt jobs and 1 NRC postdoc within a 2 hr radius of where my skids lived my first time on the market (at age 24 the last yr of my PhD at a barely top 20 school where I published about 10 articles).  I got tt interviews but no offer and got the postdoc.    I chose to stay at the lab 2 more years after the postdoc, no longer technically a postdoc getting large raises ea. year living like a college student and saving more than 70% a yr.    I then applied (again in a limited 2 hr radius) and got 2 tt offers (one at a R1, one at my current school).


Like I've said, my current job is a piece of cake; I don't feel research pressure, but am still active with undergrad research and have had at least one publication come out ea year since starting my tt position (although this will probably slow as collaborations with my old lab drop over time).    But since most of my colleagues don't publish at all, I'm not concerned.   I have a flexible schedule, work less than 40 hrs a week for the about half the year that I work at all, and am on-track for tenure.    I got no loans for grad school and at age 32 have a net worth of over $150k with a sah spouse, a $50k income (still can save with due to low col) and am track to be completely FI after 10-15 more years of this semi-retirement (depending on sol we decide on, if spouse gets side-gigs, etc).


I know that in certain fields life is not this good and that work at R1s can be very stressful and hard to get tenure, but all the doom and gloom stories do not apply to all of academia.   Quite the opposite IME.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 08:22:49 AM by Emilyngh »

Albert

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2013, 02:35:12 PM »
Life of a professor at undergrad colleges is undoubtedly much less stressful compared to career at research schools, but on the other hand you are giving up the possibility of fame and glory. There won't be any wikipedia articles written about you or an eulogy on BBC like for the recently deceased Frederick Sanger.

badassprof

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2013, 08:40:30 PM »
I'm an English professor (medieval literature). Finished my PhD ten years ago, from an ivy league school and was lucky to get a tenure track position out of grad school and than transition to another tenure track position (the one I have currently) a few years later.  I live in a high cost area, but I'm lucky that my institution pays accordingly.

I love this job and think it is a great one. I feel sad, though, that the career has changed radically, even in the few years since my graduation.  When my students express interest in this career, I'm very frank about the challenges of our profession. I also tell my students that they are best served to go to a PhD program that will pay their way (the top programs in my field still do). They are exceedingly hard to get into (often over a thousand applicants for ten positions) but a PhD in humanities is rarely something one wants to get into debt for. Also, given the current competition in humanities, you probably don't want to give it a go unless you can get into one of these programs.

oldtoyota

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2013, 05:13:26 PM »
The salary for liberal arts at state schools is not much better than what the OP mentioned for her low-stress science-related teaching job. Just FYI.

The science professors do seem to make at least $100K--esp if tenured.

I know because I saw the salaries posted in the university newspaper for a state school.

My spouse loves teaching, loves having 28 days off in Dec-Jan, and loves having 2-3 months off in the summer. It can be heavy work at times, but those 2-4 months off every year really help.


Albert

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2013, 05:19:21 PM »
My old boss (public school, close to retirement) was making 140k plus any money he might have gotten from grants and industry consulting. I've heard rumours of salaries as high as half a million (plus consulting) for certain star professors in places like Stanford or Harvard. Of course there is never a time off for those guys, but neither do they want it.

avonlea

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2013, 05:39:08 PM »
There are several well-paid professors (making anywhere from $200k to $300k+) at our town's large state university.  The majority of them are business professors.  Other professors in this income range teach chemistry, informatics, neuroscience, law, psychology, biology, economics, and political science. 
The cost of living here is not high, so they are paid very well when you take that into consideration.

Emilyngh

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2013, 05:53:32 PM »


The science professors do seem to make at least $100K--esp if tenured.



In my region, pay varies relatively significantly  even at the same school depending on rank.   So, while I only make a little more than $50k, I was hired as a brand new asst prof at this; full science profs at my school make closer to $80k.    At the closest highly ranked state school, science profs start at about $80k and full profs make up to $150k.    So pay is highly dependent on where one is in their career.

avonlea

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2013, 06:22:36 PM »
So pay is highly dependent on where one is in their career.

Oh yes, definitely.  I just looked up the average assistant professor salary for the university.  It's around $80k.  Average professor salary (all professors) is $128k.

Feeling a little guilty looking up all this info tonight.  I heard about the high paid salaries from my neighbor last year but never felt the urge to confirm what she said until this evening.  Nosy me.

Edit:  All the salaries and average salaries I talked about in this thread are just for the state university in my town. I'm sorry that I didn't communicate that well.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 11:51:20 PM by avonlea »

Rural

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2013, 07:17:36 PM »
Pay also depends on the school and area of the country. Assistant profs at my institution start at 43k and even the business school tops out around 90k. We're a public school in the state university system, so YMMV. But most states make all this public information for those who are interested.

avonlea

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2013, 07:31:42 AM »
Okay, just realized I made a pretty big uh-oh in my last post.  Average full professor salaries here are $128k.  Yeah, I think I should just stick to joining threads where I definitely know what I am talking about....

galliver

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2013, 10:18:17 AM »
Life of a professor at undergrad colleges is undoubtedly much less stressful compared to career at research schools, but on the other hand you are giving up the possibility of fame and glory. There won't be any wikipedia articles written about you or an eulogy on BBC like for the recently deceased Frederick Sanger.

Certainly, but not everyone defines success that way. :) I think (based on my experiences thus far) I would get much more satisfaction from helping create the next Frederick Sanger than I would being one. And I have a much better chance of doing so.

Albert

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2013, 11:57:06 AM »
Life of a professor at undergrad colleges is undoubtedly much less stressful compared to career at research schools, but on the other hand you are giving up the possibility of fame and glory. There won't be any wikipedia articles written about you or an eulogy on BBC like for the recently deceased Frederick Sanger.

 I think (based on my experiences thus far) I would get much more satisfaction from helping create the next Frederick Sanger than I would being one. And I have a much better chance of doing so.

You'd know better about the first point and definitely true about second. :)

Still it's a major driving force for those who go for the highest profile academic positions. There is this feeling that you are the smartest of them all and will be among those able to influence the technological development in a meaningful way. I used to think a bit like that as well, before I came to conclusion that chances are low, effort required immense and I do love my free time too much. 

Emilyngh

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2013, 12:03:59 PM »

Still it's a major driving force for those who go for the highest profile academic positions. There is this feeling that you are the smartest of them all and will be among those able to influence the technological development in a meaningful way. I used to think a bit like that as well, before I came to conclusion that chances are low, effort required immense and I do love my free time too much.

Yup.   I too used to care about this.  Then, I got a taste of being around people closest to being in this position, seeing their actual lives, and decided that I was not interested.

Emilyngh

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Re: College profs, MMM lifestyle and ER
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2013, 12:07:18 PM »
Also, as a sidenote: just wanted to say that I received several PMs and replied to them, but the replies don't show up as "sent mail" (I don't know if they should or not, it just seems odd to me that I can't see my replies).  So, if anyone sent me a PM and did not hear back from me, I'm sorry, I replied, but I guess something happened to the reply and please let me know and I'll try to figure out what's happening.