Author Topic: Climate change mitigation strategies  (Read 16455 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #200 on: October 25, 2021, 08:04:08 AM »
Why is it that in in the MMM world we can justify travelling, buying nice clothes, enjoying good coffee, wine, or whiskey, or a nice bike, but when it comes to renewable energy, energy efficiency, or other environmental friendly choices, it has to make economic sense?

We have a 5kW solar array on our garage, on a property we knew we were going to sell soon. Will we ever make the money back? No. Does it make me happy on a daily basis? Yes.  And that is good enough for me.

That seems a willfully perverse view of both MMM and the denizens of the forum. Although the forums seem to be dominated by extremely wealthy individuals who seem to indulge in whatever they fancy without closely examining the economics there seem to me to be a significant number who examine the economics of all their choices and aren't extremely wealthy.

PV is no different from any other purchase and economics should be taken into account just as much as the self-satisfaction you might get from the illusion of saving the environment.

Mr MMM has installed a PV system, but he did analyse the cost effectiveness of it before hand.

FWIW I have a 14kW PV system with about 20kWh of battery storage, which I started building 6 years ago. I did it because I've always been fascinated with the idea of generating power locally and having a degree of independence from the grid. However, there is no way the system is cost effective. The payback time is over 40 years and there is unlikely to be any environmental benefit when the materials and energy used to create the system are considered. IOW it was done for the same reasons that others use for buying fancy biles etc.

Regular leisure-related air travel is unjustifiable from an environmental perspective no matter what way you slice it.  It was also responsible for the covid-19 pandemic.  At this point, I can't really think of a morally defensible argument for it.

Clothing is a slightly more nuanced one.  I'd prefer that people buy fewer pieces of nice clothing in place of piles and piles of crap that wears out and needs to be discarded.

Powerful psychoactive drugs like caffeine, ethyl alcohol, and THC can serve important social functions but would advocate for only occasional (weekly or less) usage to prevent the problems and issues associated with regular usage.  Reduced usage naturally reduces costs and environmental impact of these drugs.


FWIW, We've got a 18 kW grid tied solar system on the roof of our house . . . and we did carefully analyze the purchase from both an environmental and economic perspective before making it, just as we do with most purchases.

scottish

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #201 on: October 25, 2021, 05:20:40 PM »
Synonyk, any tips on how you learned to do the install?

You can go snoof around my blog, I did a writeup of most of the process there: https://www.sevarg.net/tag/solar2020/

Read, learn, and figure it out as you go.  I've got a computer engineering background, and a long standing lack of fear of getting my hands dirty in something new.  I learned plenty along the way, but read the NEC, find tutorials if you have questions, and it's really not that hard.  The wiring is quite simple, the structural stuff for a roof mount isn't too hard (Iron Ridge makes good stuff with good install guides), and for me, the biggest challenge was figuring out the plans review (I didn't build what I initially wanted with batteries because of that part, and that's just the plans review guy being an ass about batteries out here - the professionals work around him by putting their batteries on a big pallet and plugging it into the house so it's "portable" for off-grid systems) and then building the big A-frames everything is connected to.

Nice blog, thanks for this Synonyk.

Out of curiosity, were you retired when you built this, or was this a part time activity while working?   

I think I would find this ... tiring to do while I'm still working, especially part 12 with all the inspections!

Syonyk

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #202 on: October 25, 2021, 06:42:28 PM »
Out of curiosity, were you retired when you built this, or was this a part time activity while working?

No, sadly, I'm not retired.  I don't work full time (preferring my 32h/wk schedule and pay), which leaves free time for stuff like this.  I figure my ~$25k build here would have cost $75k to $100k to have someone else build something similar, and the same sort of savings apply to other stuff I do around the property, plus it helps keep me a bit more sane than working more hours.  I mostly did this last year, while everything was shut down, but towards the end I was under a bit of a time crunch.  That it took me a month to get the trenching done didn't help.  When in doubt, rent a bigger trencher.

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I think I would find this ... tiring to do while I'm still working, especially part 12 with all the inspections!

Yeah, but it's a lot of fun!

My goal is to make my property more useful, and able to supply useful things so that regardless of what the economy does, I've got my costs locked down.  This forum hasn't ever seen a proper market crash and it'll be interesting to see what happens if things drop 50%, 70% - with this, I've pretty much locked in my power costs for the next 25 years (kWh for kWh net metering, got grandfathered in because I'd started the project buying panels in 2019), and beyond that, it still generates more when I use power, so will still keep a pretty tight lid on my power costs - regardless of what inflation and the markets have done.  My goal is to do the same for the gardens with a big earth sheltered greenhouse with a huge basalt back wall, but I'll see.

Abe

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #203 on: October 25, 2021, 10:50:59 PM »
@bill1827 and @GuitarStv , what're your average monthly or daily summer outputs from your panels? Just wondering since are both quite a bit larger than mine (10 kw), but I'm guessing I'm a bit farther south than both of you. My system was considered on the larger side of normal for installers in Texas.

chemistk

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #204 on: October 26, 2021, 06:22:00 AM »
@bill1827 and @GuitarStv , what're your average monthly or daily summer outputs from your panels? Just wondering since are both quite a bit larger than mine (10 kw), but I'm guessing I'm a bit farther south than both of you. My system was considered on the larger side of normal for installers in Texas.

I'll add a datapoint that you didn't ask for - I have a 10 year old 9.56kW roof-mount system in Southern PA. We've owned since July 23.

July 24 - Aug. 23 - 12.9kWh average daily output/min prod 0kWh, max 29.5kWh. Total 399kWh.
Aug. 24 - Sept. 23 - 12.3kWh, 0kWh min/28.1kWh max. Total 377kWh.

bill1827

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #205 on: October 26, 2021, 06:37:33 AM »
I don't have any data yet, most of the panels were moved from our previous house about 2 years ago and I only finished installing them in June. Also it's not a typical grid tied installation. The panels are spread over 4 roofs and 2 walls facing in different directions, we are in the cloudy UK midlands and it's a (more or less) off grid battery system. when the batteries are fully charged the panels shut down so you are harvesting less energy than a grid tied system would. On a sunny day they can shutdown at 10 AM.

So far the monthly outputs of the system are

March  448kWh
April   534kWh
May   553kwh
June   554kWh
July   506kWh
August   550kWh
September   643kWh
October  348kWh

The PVGIS predictions for a grid tied system are

Jan 325kWh
Feb 492kWh
Mar 952kWh
Apr 1346kWh
May 1518kWh
Jun 1555kWh
Jul 1552kWh
Aug 1306kWh
Sep 1050kWh
Oct 676kWh
Nov 405kWh
Dec 300kWh

We use 460-530kWh per month so there's a shortfall from November to March. (You can even get the odd day in summer when there's so much thick cloud that there isn't enough output for our use.)
August
September
October
« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 06:51:30 AM by bill1827 »

Jon Bon

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #206 on: October 26, 2021, 06:39:57 AM »

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Produces $700 of electricity a year. Takes ~ 17 years to pay it back.

Or 8 years on my math.



Yup, we can all make assumptions, frankly that is kind of my problem with it. Lots of folks like to completely ignore time value of money when looking at solar. I like how you are talking about it in $/watt which makes comparison much easier. And yes with your massively impressive system I am sure it was much easier to get the costs down per watt. I mean if there is a way to do it with it making any economic sense it sure looks like you found it. Lots of space for a huge system, no trees, easy south orientation, sunny location etc.

Just when I discount the cash flows I don't see how it is not a bad investment for where I live. Because I am viewing this as an investment nothing more. When you buy a bond you get the initial bond purchase back at the end (again heavily discounted) or you can sell the original dividend paying shares or whatever. I think a 30 year old solar array is going to be worth nearly nothing.


maizefolk

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #207 on: October 26, 2021, 06:51:26 AM »
Just when I discount the cash flows I don't see how it is not a bad investment for where I live. Because I am viewing this as an investment nothing more. When you buy a bond you get the initial bond purchase back at the end (again heavily discounted) or you can sell the original dividend paying shares or whatever. I think a 30 year old solar array is going to be worth nearly nothing.

It may well be a bad investment where you live. But out of curiosity, what discount rate do you use and why?

Whatever else we can say about solar power, the saved electricity itself is quite low risk, and the value of saving that electricity increases along with inflation. TIPS are paying negative real (post-inflation) yields even all the way out to 30 years.

the_fixer

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #208 on: October 26, 2021, 07:03:11 AM »
Sure thing, here's the estimate for 2020 which I was looking at. https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=42495

GuitarStv also posted a link to the estimate for 2021 (76% wind/solar in 2020 vs 70% in 2021).

It may look like the 2021 numbers for renewable are lower than 2020, but in 2021 the EIA is including 4.3 gigawatts of grid-scale battery installations as part of their new generating capacity (11% of their total estimate for new capacity). It doesn't make sense to me that batteries count as electrical generating capacity, but if you count them, that's be 81% of new electrical generating capacity from renewable sources. If you take the batteries out of the equation entirely, we're looking at 79% wind+solar in 2021.

Well that is pretty cool, feels like we are actually closer to this whole net zero thing then I figured. I mean we might be about 15 years too late, but I feel that is something to be celebrated.

That is my view as well. We're not going to stave off climate change entirely. In all likelihood, it's going to get quite bad. But we're also making big changes that mean the future will be a lot LESS BAD than it otherwise was going to be. Changes I never expected our civilization to be willing or able to make even ten years ago.

If you don't take the time to celebrate the wins and good news, it can be easy to fall into to trap of feeling like there is no point in even trying.

The 56% nuclear being replaced is also clean energy though, isn't it?  Doesn't that means that there's a real positive increase of about 14% in clean energy sources from wind and solar expected this year, once you account for the clean nuclear energy that is being decommissioned?  (I too don't count batteries as energy generation.)

It is good that the 30% coal is going away at least.

I don't think it is correct to look at the percentages that way because we're building more capacity than we're retiring.

In 2021 only 9.1 gigawatts of generating capacity is being retired and 39.7 gigawatts is coming online.

If 56% of 9.1 is nuclear, that's a loss of 5 gigawatts of non-fossil fuel generating capacity.

If ~80% of the new power is wind + solar that's 32 gigawatts of new non-fossil fuel generating capacity (not counting the 1.1 gigawatts of NEW nuclear coming online to replace some of the decommissioned capacity) which otherwise would have had to have been met with either coal or natural gas plants.

In that scenario, we are loosing baseload capacity and replacing it with intermittent generation. "capacity" of generation of wind power doesn't equal "production" of said power. A 1GW wind farm may be producing zero power during a still day- not great when you need that power to keep the grid from crashing.

The ONLY reason we are able to build so much solar and wind capacity is because of all of the fast ramping gas plants we've been building. Those plants take over when the sun isn't shining and wind isn't blowing. And they have to be able to run the entire grid in those scenarios (along with coal, nuclear and sometimes hydro) Our energy production sector is producing less CO2 per MW, and the real hero is the gas plants. Bot for being much cleaner than coal plants as well as being able to quickly come online to take over intermittent renewables. Solar and Wind are now a noticeable (but still small) chunk of our power these days, but would not work without the gas plants.

California keeps having rolling blackouts because the dams are drying up and they retired too many of their nuclear plants and didn't have replacements... they're now building gas plants to remedy it. They've yet to build substantial batteries for backup power (the batteries currently on the grid are for short term price arbitrage as well as frequency mitigation).

Renewables are in the news, but the grid won't work with them. The best answer is nuclear, but public opinion on that is all but hopeless.

Great break down. Not many people understand the realities as they currently exist but you did a great job of explaining!


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GuitarStv

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #209 on: October 26, 2021, 07:34:43 AM »
@bill1827 and @GuitarStv , what're your average monthly or daily summer outputs from your panels? Just wondering since are both quite a bit larger than mine (10 kw), but I'm guessing I'm a bit farther south than both of you. My system was considered on the larger side of normal for installers in Texas.

I'm not sure.  Ours is grid tied, and I've largely stopped paying attention to the numbers since it was installed . . . just collect the cheques each month.  There's wild variance between summer and winter though.  Most of Dec/Jan is a writeoff between the dark and the snow.

sonofsven

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #210 on: October 26, 2021, 07:47:33 AM »
@bill1827 and @GuitarStv , what're your average monthly or daily summer outputs from your panels? Just wondering since are both quite a bit larger than mine (10 kw), but I'm guessing I'm a bit farther south than both of you. My system was considered on the larger side of normal for installers in Texas.

18 panel  grid tie system, approx 6kw max output, online 5/1/20, NW Oregon, total energy produced monthly:

June 2021: 1 Mwh              June 2020: 889.9 kwh
July 2021: 979.3 kwh         July 2020: 928.7 kwh
August 2021: 798.8 kwh    August 2020: 980.8 kwh

This is on a house I built, but I don't own anymore. I still have access to the system info via the Enphase app.

Jon Bon

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #211 on: October 26, 2021, 11:31:08 AM »
Just when I discount the cash flows I don't see how it is not a bad investment for where I live. Because I am viewing this as an investment nothing more. When you buy a bond you get the initial bond purchase back at the end (again heavily discounted) or you can sell the original dividend paying shares or whatever. I think a 30 year old solar array is going to be worth nearly nothing.

It may well be a bad investment where you live. But out of curiosity, what discount rate do you use and why?

Whatever else we can say about solar power, the saved electricity itself is quite low risk, and the value of saving that electricity increases along with inflation. TIPS are paying negative real (post-inflation) yields even all the way out to 30 years.

I used a 3% inflation rate on power and a 5% rate for discounting. I felt that was pretty generous as 5% return is pretty poor. I got ~17 year payback.

So if I went forward it would be due to other factors other than it being a worthwhile investment.

It appeals to me to have a level of independence from the grid. I believe there are certain inverters you can buy that give you some power even when the grid is down? I also have "Dad Thermostat Disease" So it would be nice to be running AC/head pump and know that the sun is powering it.....






GuitarStv

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #212 on: October 26, 2021, 12:20:37 PM »
I also have "Dad Thermostat Disease" So it would be nice to be running AC/head pump and know that the sun is powering it.....


I didn't know that there was a name for this debilitating and quite common affliction.  I too am a sufferer.  And don't get me started on people leaving a room with lights on . . .

bacchi

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #213 on: October 26, 2021, 12:27:20 PM »
It appeals to me to have a level of independence from the grid. I believe there are certain inverters you can buy that give you some power even when the grid is down? I also have "Dad Thermostat Disease" So it would be nice to be running AC/head pump and know that the sun is powering it.....

An Automatic Transfer Switch (ATS), acting like a reverse computer UPS, defaults to solar power and switches over to grid power when needed. Because the panels aren't grid-tied, there's no need for an electrical permit, at least where I live. The downside is that there's also no net metering.

A friend runs an AC window unit in the master bedroom off of a single panel + batteries, eliminating the need to cool the entire house at night. He plans to connect the garage fridge too.


Edit: Yes, this will provide power if the grid is down.

bill1827

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #214 on: October 26, 2021, 12:53:04 PM »
It appeals to me to have a level of independence from the grid. I believe there are certain inverters you can buy that give you some power even when the grid is down?

Some time ago SMA made an inverter that would feed one circuit from your panels, even if the grid was down, but I can't find it now. It's probably no longer available as it wasn't terribly useful and battery backup systems of various types are only slightly unaffordable rather than eye-wateringly unaffordable.

Syonyk

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #215 on: October 26, 2021, 07:37:04 PM »
I like how you are talking about it in $/watt which makes comparison much easier.

The only "honest" numbers you can compare systems with are $/W, pre-incentives.  Outside that, there's an awful lot of creativity that can go into making the numbers look better than they really are.  See my previous rant about solar salestypes...

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And yes with your massively impressive system I am sure it was much easier to get the costs down per watt. I mean if there is a way to do it with it making any economic sense it sure looks like you found it. Lots of space for a huge system, no trees, easy south orientation, sunny location etc.

Indeed, should have gone a bit larger... but this is still overproducing massively.  A year in, I'm +6MWh.  I draw about 3MWh net from the grid over winter, and I expect our use to be a bit higher the next year with more driving (that's 10-15kWh on days the car moves, and an extra two or so every school day because we're at a really awkward spot where the bus won't stop near us, and there's no safe walking path between our house and the bus stop - at least not for a first grader, it's along a narrow shoulder of a two lane 55mph road where people often do 65+ - and at least the electric isn't cold starting a gas engine for the trips).  Though I may trim it down some with a heat pump water heater.  I'm also prone to heat on compute in the winter instead of heat pump, especially when it's really cold.  Light up some BOINC boxes (it used to be F@h, but I donated my old office heater to a friend who is doing a bunch of CAD work for 3D printing, which seems a better use of a decent GPU).

In terms of net production, I would be better off with pure south facing panels, but the east-west facing stuff is to capture morning and evening sun, and it works darn well.  In the summer, the east/west panels are online a good hour and a half (and hang on that much longer) before the south facing panels come online from anything but diffuse light.  They're quite literally backlit in the morning - I probably should have gone with bifacial, but there's enough to shade them from the back that I don't think they'd really produce much.

I've played with the numbers a bit, and the best I can do is about $1.50/W for DIY right now.  Interestingly, this is the same for ground mount and roof mount, assuming you're under NEC 2017 and require per-panel shutdown electronics on the roof.  My wooden frames are more expensive than a welded pipe frame setup that I'm working on for a friend's setup, and I think future iterations of the concept are going to be 72 cell panels (vs 60 cell).  You can go with 10x72 or 12x60 for the exact same thing, but the balance of system costs are a bit lower on 72 cell panels, and it's shorter per "module" (east and west panels, run into a 6kVA inverter).  So hopefully next year a few other people locally will put stuff up and we can optimize design on that.  I'm happy to help with it, and I'm seeing an awful lot of solar going up in the area.  One of these days I should spin up a domain for area solar discussion (of course, with a DIY focus...).

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I think a 30 year old solar array is going to be worth nearly nothing.

As used parts, probably, but as a system that still produces energy, it should still be 70-80% of new energy value - probably with a few parts replacements, but it shouldn't be "totally dead" by then, unless nobody has replaced any failed parts.  My expectation for my system (I'm ~40, youngest is 3) is that my current system will run with minimum maintenance for another 25 years.  If I have to replace a failed panel or two, no big deal, I've got a couple spares, and can also pull spares off my office system (I've got a mini-A over there, with 8 panels I can swap stuff around on if needed).  I've got a spare inverter, and they're no big deal to swap.  In 25 years, I hope my kids are out of the house, which should lower energy use (peak draw will probably be in about 10-15 years, with two teenagers in the house, and some more EVs).  Depending on how they're producing, I may go through and refresh panels (assuming the power grid hasn't collapsed entirely or something by then, which involves some other changes a lot earlier).  At that point... honestly, if I have to worry about them in 30 years after that, I'm crowding 100 and probably won't care. :p

And if the power grid gets erratic, I'm a couple 600V MPPT units away from taking the house off grid.  Not as well as I'd like, in terms of battery capacity, but once I get some bigger batteries in the power trailer, I'm a day's rewiring away from being standalone for at least a reasonable selection of loads.  I won't be able to run everything all at once, and I'd have to pay close attention to power, and we'd be cold in the winter without a wood stove, but I could do it for a useful amount of power.

It appeals to me to have a level of independence from the grid. I believe there are certain inverters you can buy that give you some power even when the grid is down?

There are a couple tiers of that, the highest end involving a lot of really expensive batteries.  Against all odds, Enphase appears to be actually shipping IQ8 inverters, which have some limited capability grid down, and there are the SMA Sunny Boy inverters as well that provide the SPS outlet for up to 2kW of single phase 120V with the grid down.  I have those, but as some of my critical loads (well pump, mostly) are 240V, that's of somewhat less use without power conversion equipment.  I've got an autotransformer I keep meaning to wire up and play with... but it's honestly pretty annoying to drop grid power to the house, so I haven't been experimenting on the house much.  I really need to run a new outlet box as well for some higher loads, and I'll do that when I run an additional run for a hot tub (if I use it or not, it involves a subpanel that makes my life a lot easier, or I might be able to squeeze a few more breakers together with the quads mini clusters..).

Just be aware that going this route is quite expensive.

An Automatic Transfer Switch (ATS), acting like a reverse computer UPS, defaults to solar power and switches over to grid power when needed. Because the panels aren't grid-tied, there's no need for an electrical permit, at least where I live. The downside is that there's also no net metering.

There are a couple ways things can be wired, and in the US, most references to an ATS are a device that drops the whole house from the grid, allowing you to island and run the house when the grid is down, if you have batteries.  You can also get standalone inverters like my office has that allow people to do what you're talking about, running off solar and battery unless they're low, but... "no permit required" is really going to depend on the area.  Talk to your local electrical AHJ, because that's not generally true.

Some time ago SMA made an inverter that would feed one circuit from your panels, even if the grid was down, but I can't find it now. It's probably no longer available as it wasn't terribly useful and battery backup systems of various types are only slightly unaffordable rather than eye-wateringly unaffordable.

All the Sunny Boys have the 2000W SPS outlet.  I've 20A/120V outlets wired to all three of my inverters with the proper switch to enable them.  There's some complexity if you have rapid shutdown devices on the panels, but there's a way around it that involves putting 18V on the secure power supply pins, which lets the controller tell the panel devices that they can open up and provide power.

maizefolk

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #216 on: October 26, 2021, 08:18:24 PM »
I used a 3% inflation rate on power and a 5% rate for discounting. I felt that was pretty generous as 5% return is pretty poor. I got ~17 year payback.

I'm obviously not trying to talk you into solar power penciling out as a good investment but since you stated that a 5% rate of return is pretty poor where would you point someone who wanted to invest and earn a risk free 5% return?

30 year treasuries are paying 2.056% at the moment, and really given how the value of having solar increases with inflation it seems like TIPS with a -0.32% return is probably the fairer comparison.

The main point I'm trying to make is that generally discount rates aren't fixed, but change based on the next best investment option. Investments in efficiency and savings are generally going to be more appealing in low yield environments (like today) than they are in high yield environments where the net present value of future savings is less.

pecunia

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #217 on: October 26, 2021, 08:45:21 PM »
Well - I guess I will vote for the candidates that support generation IV nuclear and keeping the existing nuclear facilities going.  We'll need that clean power for all the electric cars and hopefully high speed trains.

bill1827

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #218 on: October 27, 2021, 02:45:54 AM »
All the Sunny Boys have the 2000W SPS outlet.  I've 20A/120V outlets wired to all three of my inverters with the proper switch to enable them.  There's some complexity if you have rapid shutdown devices on the panels, but there's a way around it that involves putting 18V on the secure power supply pins, which lets the controller tell the panel devices that they can open up and provide power.

I stand corrected, wasn't using the correct search terms. However, that feature seems to be US specific, it's not available on UK inverters. Of course it only works when the sun's shining; not much use at night.

maizefolk

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #219 on: October 27, 2021, 06:42:52 AM »
Well - I guess I will vote for the candidates that support generation IV nuclear and keeping the existing nuclear facilities going.  We'll need that clean power for all the electric cars and hopefully high speed trains.

I will be happy if there are viable candidates supporting those positions for you to vote for.

Jon Bon

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #220 on: October 27, 2021, 11:31:02 AM »
I used a 3% inflation rate on power and a 5% rate for discounting. I felt that was pretty generous as 5% return is pretty poor. I got ~17 year payback.

I'm obviously not trying to talk you into solar power penciling out as a good investment but since you stated that a 5% rate of return is pretty poor where would you point someone who wanted to invest and earn a risk free 5% return?

30 year treasuries are paying 2.056% at the moment, and really given how the value of having solar increases with inflation it seems like TIPS with a -0.32% return is probably the fairer comparison.

The main point I'm trying to make is that generally discount rates aren't fixed, but change based on the next best investment option. Investments in efficiency and savings are generally going to be more appealing in low yield environments (like today) than they are in high yield environments where the net present value of future savings is less.

Well pretty much any investment carries risk which is kind of the point of course. I would in no way consider solar panels riskless. They also are prone failure like all electronics, roof issues, etc. So investing in the S&P for 8% return over that 30 years that require no effort on my part feels like a much better investment. (if we are only viewing it that way)

Would I rather pay a few extra bucks in taxes/fees whatever to build a massive solar plant near me? That sounds like a better position. My energy will still be clean and my investments will be investments.


Jon Bon

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #221 on: October 27, 2021, 12:03:20 PM »
Well - I guess I will vote for the candidates that support generation IV nuclear and keeping the existing nuclear facilities going.  We'll need that clean power for all the electric cars and hopefully high speed trains.

I will be happy if there are viable candidates supporting those positions for you to vote for.

Same I feel like nuclear and a gas tax would go a long way in fighting climate change but there is zero support for them on both sides of the aisle which is nuts IMO.


nereo

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Re: Climate change mitigation strategies
« Reply #222 on: October 27, 2021, 04:57:17 PM »
Well - I guess I will vote for the candidates that support generation IV nuclear and keeping the existing nuclear facilities going.  We'll need that clean power for all the electric cars and hopefully high speed trains.

I will be happy if there are viable candidates supporting those positions for you to vote for.

Same I feel like nuclear and a gas tax would go a long way in fighting climate change but there is zero support for them on both sides of the aisle which is nuts IMO.

No support? I see lots of support, but not the level needed to overcome the substantial barriers.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!