The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: shelivesthedream on October 29, 2017, 12:17:41 PM
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I am going to be confirmed into the Church of England (Anglo-Catholic tradition) in late November and it’s got me thinking about how my faith ought to affect my Mustachianism. Obviously the Bible and the church talk a lot about what one ought to do with one’s money. I didn't grow up in a religious household so a lot of these issues are fairly new to me. I thought I’d ask my fellow Mustachians who are also Christians about how your faith affects your Mustachianism. Do please also say which denomination you are!
There is no need to reply if you are not a currently practicing Christian. There is also no need to reply if you do not have anything to say on how your faith and your Mustachianism affect each other.
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I've been a christian all my life. We have been givers but not tithers until this year. I had always felt like we were giving with one hand while holding the other in a tight fist. I felt like there was never enough. We decided to try a full Malachi 3:10 in January and trust God. We are tithing and I notice no difference in our savings rate! It's been eye opening.
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I've been an Episcopalian/in the Anglican Communion since I was in college (I was not raised a Christian.) My dh converted as an adult, as well.
I don't think we are really "Mustachian" in the sense of pursuing RE at all costs, but we have always been quite frugal. We have a generous charitable budget, not all to the church, and we give a lot of time, as well.
For me, the closest connection between my faith and my economic practices is probably most connected with questioning the costs of materialism, of consumerism, and with environmental practices.
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Roman Catholic here.
Mustachianism in its purest form is incompatible with following Christ. All things should be referred to Christ, not referred to how it affects the stash.
Mustachianism in its moderate form is compatible with following Christ. There is a good reason the early Christians admired the Stoics and adopted their clean and admirable philosophy.
Control of one's own passions, the reduction of vices, the steady concentration upon the long-term good, responsibility for self without excuses, welcome of anyone from any highway or byway who is willing to hear and recognize the good and change from the old futile way to the way that leads to a better life - Mustachianism and Christianity should have no difficulty going along most of the path side by side.
I'm a long-time tither as well. As scissorbill observed, opening my hand toward God did not harm my savings rate, it improved it. This is actual experience of mine over about 25 years. If anyone is considering tithing and is not sure, I would say, open your hand toward God and be surprised at what you find out.
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Well, when people are getting out of hand in the forums I often have to remind myself that as Christians we are called to treat all our brothers and sisters with love, even when they are at their most obnoxious...oh, you meant managing money. :) My church doesn't preach required tithing--it's supposed to be what you feel called to do based on your relationship with Christ, although I suspect a lot of our church members do tithe. Today's sermon was actually on grace through faith alone, and the emptiness of works or religious practices without faith. I do think Mustachianism is sympathetic to the responsibility of Christians to be good stewards of what they have been given, given its opposition to wastefulness, although not perhaps in a single-minded dedication to early retirement above all. (I do think that FI is compatible with Christianity, because of the freedom it grants one to follow one's conscience and also the protection from the temptation to do wrong through being stuck in a financially untenable situation.)
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That is a really good point, Noodle, about FI giving the freedom to follow one's conscience, and insulating oneself from the temptation to do wrong.
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The Bible often talks about greed and patience. Anyone thinking of putting money into crypto currencies or the latest hot bio tech stock should read up on those verses.
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We are frugal, but not because we want to retire early, exactly. Both my husband (a social worker) and I (a teacher) have careers that we find deeply meaningful and rewarding, and for us working is (mostly) joyful.
But our credo is "radical generosity" and it is heavily influenced by Richard Foster, a Quaker who wrote Freedom of Simplicity and several other excellent books. So instead of being frugal in order to amass an enormous "stache" of wealth, we aim to give as much as we can away while still being responsible about saving for the future.
We save 15% of our income in retirement accounts, tithe 10% to our non-denominational church that meets at a community gym and gives heavily to the poor, and give 5% additionally to causes we find meaningful. In the future, when we aren't trying to pay off a mortgage early and pay for daycare for two children, we hope to give much more. Eventually our goal is to become FI so that we can pursue some kind of service regardless of pay. That won't be for at least fifteen more years, but I imagine it would look something like teaching at a missionary school or working at an orphanage abroad. That's our long-term vision, anyway.
So yes, we are very, very frugal, despite the fact that our combined salaries are north of $150k. We drive old cars and most of the things we buy are used. This blog and the forums are quite helpful in aiding frugality. Our motivation, however, is sometimes a bit different. We aren't using wealth in order to get out of the rat race. We don't feel as though we are in a rat race.
In a Christian worldview, "Mustachianism" would be referred to as "stewardship". I have read many, many books on the subject. But you really can't beat the New Testament. You cannot serve both God and Mammon. Don't be a fool, storing your extra wealth in more barns. Your very life could be demanded of you tonight.
Whenever I look at my retirement accounts, I kind of shake my head and think of the foolish farmer in the parable. To me, the money we give away is the only money that has any kind of eternal value.
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Wow, talk about timing. I was just browsing this book at the library - You Are What You Love: The Spiritual Power of Habit-
https://www.amazon.com/You-Are-What-Love-Spiritual/dp/158743380X , and thinking about how much of it resonated with why I'm attracted to mustachianism. In particular, the idea that we can (and must) break out of the produce/consume cycle, but it is hard. When we look at our behaviours and practices rather than our expressed beliefs, some hard truths emerge. This is true for both religious and non-religious mustachians.
Smith writes eloquently about the power of the liturgical church to bolster the habits and express the beliefs that we do want to foster so this might really resonate with you at this point. I am non-practicing but found his ideas resonant.
Great question!
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First, congratulations, SheLivesTheDream!
This is a good question. I was raised in a Presbyterian home with some Southern Baptist influence, and my parents started me tithing on my allowance before I could calculate 10%. I think tithing contributes to saving by making you more aware of what is coming in and going out and more careful about money in general. It might also encourage being patient and not worrying so much about little ups and downs in the market.
I became a Roman Catholic as an adult. I've relaxed a little about tithing. For a long time, I still did 10% of gross income, but I'm currently doing 5% of net pay and building in room to also donate to special causes that people bring up, disaster relief, etc. Doing it this way also allows me to occasionally go to things like fundraising dinners or events that are for charity but also entertainment. That doesn't come up that often, but the students organise these things for good causes now and then. It is fun to dress up and feel extravagant while supporting something I would have supported anyway. It's less efficient than just sending the money, but especially when it's the young people at church organising something, it's nice to be able to afford to encourage the efforts.
The other direct thing about money is the question of lending at interest. I tried LendingClub but wondered about the cautions against usury. At one point I was limiting myself to loans with interest rates no higher than I would consider taking myself, but eventually I gave up on it. I never had many loans there and now I'm just waiting for one last one to finish. It was partly just that it's a lot of bother for the amount of return and risk, not entirely a moral question.
My church has provided a community that has given me a social outlet that is often free or nearly free, not counting the donations I'd be making already. There are multiple gatherings a week, and I enjoy singing in the choir as well. Maybe if I didn't have that, I would be going out more often to restaurants or bars or concerts to socialise. Friends with families have been having me over for dinner a lot lately. I need to reciprocate more. It may be easier for people with small children to socialise in their own homes, but I could be cooking and bringing food instead of just the occasional bottle of wine or package of sweets.
There are also some opportunities to help others. We have a group that takes turns taking food and hot beverages around to homeless people on the streets. I've only gone along a few times, but it's eye-opening to see how people are having to get by and what they are worrying about. People can be so glad to have instant coffee with milk and lots of sugar. It puts my little worries in perspective and makes me realise the luxuries that I have.
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This is a really interesting topic for me. A couple thoughts come to mind:
1) Isaiah 55:2 "Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not?" That certainly speaks to mustachianism, namely making deliberate choices on how we spend money.
2) Self-reliance is a part of my faith, and the whole FI concept certainly plays into that. Helping one another is a huge part of it as well. If you've seen the army of yellow t-shirts that appears every time a hurricane hits the gulf coast, that's an example :)
3) Giving to the poor (and/or tithes)...eh, I'm going to say that as long as people do it deliberately and willingly, knowing that it postpones their eventual retirement, it's not contrary to mustachianism.
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I am neither an M-follower in it's truest form nor am I a tither at church in its true form. I do give, but I am equally moved to give $ to secular charities I feel do good works that support my values.
Why am I talking you wonder? I used to work for my church--Methodist. Very middle of the road. It drove me crazy, absolutely crazy how much money the church was wasting! (I do not mean spending money on things I disagree with, I mean over paying or throwing out tons of useful food/resources, etc.)
The thing I have found most useful to me has been to help the church understand how to utilize their resources in a more efficient manner. In general operating expenses I helped them save 12%--which was just over $100,000. When I got involved other similarly minded people also go on the band wagon. It has been a truly unifying experience. The extra $$ has allowed the church to do more community based out reach and missions, without sacrificing any programming nor any reduction in force.
Seriously--I negotiated an almost 40% cost savings on toilet paper. It's a big church--there are 74 toilets throughout the building.....all these things add up.
One guy spearheaded a switch to LED lighting, replacing/upgrading as needing from the utility savings.
No longer is food left after events. People now understand--take it, take it all (unless it didn't taste good--that gets tossed) before everyone was being so polite that a ton of food eventually got thrown away. Now the kitchen has a bunch of reusable storage and it is understood that you take extra food and bring back the containers. Do some people probably take more than what would be considered a "fair share"--absolutely! Would I rather have the same old lady grabbing food each event or throw it all in a dumpster a week later?
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Most Christian sects have settled that usury is ok. So, I guess that's the first hurdle to making mustachianism compatible with Christianity; in that your goal is to live in an economic system with fiat currency that is pretty much based on usury. Add the fact that you're trying to basically build your own personal endowment (probably large enough to feed an entire village in Africa for a year) and live of the interest for 40+ years, so you better be damn comfortable with usury. As a catholic, I'm ok with it so long as you're not a part of anything unreasonable.
Next comes tithing. I admit I don't give anywhere near 10%. I'm a CEO Catholic (Christmas and Easter Only) but I still strongly believe in Christ and the tennnats of the faith. And, working at a catholic university, I get dragged to mass a few additional times per year. I don't give to the church, I'd rather give to my alma mater (catholic school) or charities until the Catholic Church cleans up its shit storm.
Finally, there's the issue of "not working" and if that makes you a sloth. I think if you FIRE and stuff yourself full of food all day and binge Netflix shows, that's a lifestyle rather antithetical to Christianity. But, I don't think anyone on this forum is suggesting or doing that. Seems most people are trying to FIRE to better their communities and do some pretty awesome stuff. It's a philosophy based on rejecting consumerism, helping others, and challenging the status quo. Nothing more Christian than that.
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I'm a Mormon, and my faith has a large impact on my mustachianism.
On the downside, a 10% tithe in additional to other charitable donations, as well as budgeting for future charity, will delay my retirement by at least a year.
The Christian principles of self reliance that were taught by my church and parents from an early age led me to develop skills that make earning a living fairly trivial.
The old parable of the talents teaches that we should be a good steward our time, talents, and resources. To me, that suggests that I quickly complete my indentured servitude to mammon. Quickly preparing myself financially for a lifetime of service will allow me to be of greater service to others, and bring greater joy than the consumerist comforts.
Finally, missionary service is a key component of my retirement plan. DW and I plan to kickoff our retirement by serving in an inexpensive country. That should limit our expenses, allowing our meager investments to have a little more growth before we start drawing 4%.
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TL;DR version - In certain respects my Christian faith and Mustachianism are mutually reinforcing, but Mustachianism itself falls short on deeper matters. So Mustachianism is a useful tool, but only God can provide the deeper meaning, purpose and identity that are central to my life.
Some background: I was brought up in a non denominational evangelical church in the US. For a very long time my faith could be described as transactional moralism. It was all about individual salvation of the soul, what do I have to believe to get into heaven. My general sense was that God tolerated me because he had to, because of Jesus Christ's death and resurrection. So I compartmentalize my faith - my faith was only concerned with the spiritual, therefore as long as I wasn't pissing off God by being immoral (sex, drugs, etc.) then he didn't have much of an opinion about anything else. However, by my early 30s I was increasingly disillusioned with my faith and struggled with shame and a deep sense of dread. I was slowly walking away from my faith.
DW (similar background) and I started reexamining our life and making changes. We quit the cool big church and found a small church with strong healthy community...hard to describe it other than a place filled with joy and love. As we got more involved we found that the people challenged our thinking about our faith (one on one, sermons, classes, studies, etc.) in a very loving and patient way. Through this process we experienced a spiritual renaissance, a total change of heart. Instead of seeing God as tolerating us, we were able to finally understand that we are pleasing to God, and that God IS love. No longer did we view Jesus as protecting us from God (“There is no God behind the back of Jesus”). In short, we experienced grace. A grace filled God accepting and loving us as we are, yet loving us too much to leave us unchanged. This has changed, in a wonderful way, how we think about everything. For example, instead of asking "why does God allow evil in the world" we've started asking "why is there good in the world?" - life, creation, everything is a gift and we have the opportunity to do good things with it.
I include the backstory because we found MMM a short time after our spiritual renaissance and, being counter cultural, MMM was useful for challenging certain assumptions I grew up with. I was always frugal, but hadn't given much thought to how much emphasis I put on consumption as a means to happiness and fulfillment. I had never really thought about the impact of my choices on the environment, social justice or my health. Whereas my previously compartmentalized faith lead to largely ignore these issues, my new understanding that it isn't primarily about "going to heaven" but rather how I'm created in the image of God for a purpose, and what I do here and now matters because life is the most abundant, fulfilling and meaningful when I'm doing what God intended for us.
So Mustachianism helped by providing a different perspective and practical advice. At the same time I found that being grounded in my faith has helped us shed the consumptive American culture because we find such a joy and contentment with just living simply and volunteering (we don't get frugal fatigue, don't have FOMO). There's such freedom from consumerism and trying to earn respect through performance...we can just be who we are and know that we are enough.
Just recently I started watching short videos from The Bible Project (from Western Seminary). I think they do a great job of summarizing a lot of this stuff. I wish they were around when I was younger in my faith:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbipxLDtY8c - how we are created to be good stewards, that the here and now matters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy2AQlK6C5k - not really about "getting into heaven" thing
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I am pretty loosely Christian at this point, but still. I grew up learning that it was important to give 10%, but I never learned that giving ought to go to the church in particular. 10% of my take-home pay is in a charity budget (though so far I have failed to meet that most months due to waffling about where to give it). I give a chunk to the UNHCR and a chunk to the Against Malaria Foundation; I'd still like to find an environmental charity and a human trafficking charity I trust. And there's usually a little leftover in the budget for local or short-term causes.
I know a lot of people argue that you could give enough after your stache is accumulated to make the same impact, but I try to live by rules that can be applied broadly. I wouldn't trust the population at large to stick to that commitment. I'd rather not live my life in charity "debt" either.
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I read this recently and thought it applied to the discussion:
Though many of us see our faith and our finances as important but unrelated aspects of life, the Lord views them as inseparable. He knows that when our hearts are wrapped up in accumulating wealth and material goods, we can’t enjoy intimacy with Him. ~ Dr. James Dobson
I really liked how FINate put it in their previous post. Our faith goes deeper, wider, farther, beyond the principles of Mustachianism. For me, my faith helps to answer the Mustachianism question -- what are you retiring to?
It also makes the journey of spending less, earning more, and saving more less stressful, as I tell myself each day, "The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord."
At the end of the day, God comes first. Mustachianism just gives me a framework to operationalise some of the principles of good financial stewardship, which is why I only consider myself semi-Mustachian, since I don't prescribe to all of MMM's espoused ideas
Edited to add: I identify as non-denominational evangelical.
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Cultural Catholic here (Raised as, and continue to attend mass for familial reasons, but am not convinced the story is true).
I think there's a perfect fit.
Compare the following (nearly identical in meaning) quotes:
"Once the demands of necessity and propriety have been met, the rest that one owns belongs to the poor.” Pope Leo XIII
“Effective altruists do things like the following: •Living modestly and donating a large part of their income—often much more than the traditional tenth, or tithe—to the most effective charities." Peter Singer (though not a mustachian, he has been a major influence on prominent mustachian arebelspy aka Joe)
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I've been Christian since a child, but only recently felt that I was maturing in my faith. In that process I've considered mustachian and Christianity a good amount.
They go together pretty well except I don't believe that we should pay ourselves first. I believe we should give our first fruits to the Lord. Also, our purpose in life isn't happiness, which is a major thing MMM talks about.
My husband and I feel very blessed we were able to find about MMM, since it happened completely by random. Money is the major cause for tension in marriage and we are so happy we are dodging most of the issues surrounding money.
We likely won't be retiring in our 30s, but we still will be ahead of most. I plan to use my retirement to be more involved in my church community.
One thing I am working on now is finding a church that we want to be involved in. The last place we lived in we didn't have a church community and it was something that we definitely needed. Having peers that you can relate to is a huge contributor to success.
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Frugality and Christianity go hand-in-hand. The primary difference is the end goal.
In MMM, the ultimate goal self-actualization - finding your true happiness and self-fulfillment. This is very common in secular thought and a logical conclusion for those who don't believe in God.
Obviously, in Christianity, our purpose drives deeper to serving Christ. For me, this manifests itself in having different retirement goals than others. Sure, I want to go travel more and have some time for hobbies, etc. But mostly, I'm driven by the dream of fully freeing my time and life up for Christ's purpose and calling in my life.
I still want financial freedom. I just want to use that freedom differently.
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Southern Baptist
It allows me to take great risk. I don't believe in storing my treasures here on earth. So I don't. I have $500 in a 401k. I had $5,000 but I needed $4500 towards a down payment on a rental house. Im not afraid to have no money in my checking account. I don't have $10,000 cash sitting around. Heck today I have about $2500 in cash and need to make to find $4600 in 10 days for a closing on a house. The money will be there in time. Payday it tomorrow.
I am working to financial security with rentals. I can use the houses to let some in need live there. I can let them skip payments if needed. I can help with them learn to manage money. I can help them save for buying there own house. It gives me lots of options. I hope later on God will find more uses for my rentals. I don't need to be rich. I have an addiction to cars and God and I are working on that.
I think I would feel like I was doing something wrong if I had $50,000 sitting in bank for a what if. For me that would not be trusting God to provide for me. That would be trusting in me. I don't worry at all about being not having enough money. Its always there.
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Mustachianism was a tool that woke me up to my consumerism. Seeking fulfillment through material posessions was something that I'd fallen for, though I probably wouldn't have admitted it in the middle of it. There is a great deal of security to be found in "improving" one's life by arranging things around yourself, and convincing that each of these purchases is necessary (Tiny Details Exaggeration Syndrome plays a big role here).
Recognizing things like the hedonic treadmill helped me to see how much I was treasuring "stuff," and how it was ultimately futile to the ends I wanted to achieve. That helped me realize that the ends I was seeking were not in line with the Gospel. I worshipped the god of my own comfort over just about everything else. We've always given a significant portion of our income away, but my heart and motivation behind it was not one of joy. Turning the corner on this has allowed us to be more intentional and joyful in what we give away, and reorient our lives away from stuff towards God. Letting go of that has been freeing.
We save because we want to be good stewards of our money. We give because we recognize that what we have is barely ours on loan (thanks Built to Spill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F9amPUZokg)), and we have great freedom and responsibility to use our resources for good. God doesn't need what we give to accomplish His purposes, but gives us the privilege of joining in. The extent that we give makes FI further off, but we're ok with that and happy with where we are.
The parable of the rich fool gives me chills every time I read it (Luke 12:12-21):
Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”
Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.” And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’ “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’
“But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’
“This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.”
Also, I'm Baptist. That can mean a lot of different things since all Baptist churches are independent. To narrow it down on the bigger categories: non-liturgical, evangelical, protestant, congregationalist(ish), premillennial/dispensationalist. That's a mouthful.
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Roman Catholic
Fits great!
Much of it already written.
Good stewardship - recognize and avoid being a 'consumer sucka' - realize you're a slave to your stuff and luxury habits, so minimize/optimize the stuff/luxury habits - intentionally doing hard things - and that the purpose of all stuff is just to be a better person.
As MMM has mentioned, Mustachianism is not so much about frugality; it's more about life optimization. Frugality, money-management etc is just a tool to attain that.
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Frugality and Christianity go hand-in-hand. The primary difference is the end goal.
In MMM, the ultimate goal self-actualization - finding your true happiness and self-fulfillment. This is very common in secular thought and a logical conclusion for those who don't believe in God.
Obviously, in Christianity, our purpose drives deeper to serving Christ. For me, this manifests itself in having different retirement goals than others. Sure, I want to go travel more and have some time for hobbies, etc. But mostly, I'm driven by the dream of fully freeing my time and life up for Christ's purpose and calling in my life.
I still want financial freedom. I just want to use that freedom differently.
This is where I fall. I also believe that saving is wise (Proverbs), but hoarding money isn't. We want to be able to save, but we also want the ability to give freely which is something we couldn't do when we were in debt. Now we are fully debt free including the house, we are free to serve in ways we couldn't before.
We have also always tithe 10%. We aren't legalistic about it, but it is something we both feel strongly about. We attend a church whose financial beliefs align with ours (such as wise stewardship).
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DW and I are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons). Parents and church taught us to live within my means and save.
I am aware of the costs. We pay 10% tithe plus some additional offerings. In addition to our charitable donations, church service consumes considerable time. Our church teaches us to keep the Sabbath day holy by avoiding secular work on Sunday. In addition to attending a three hour block of church services each Sunday, most practicing Mormons fulfill a calling to serve the church in some regard (often involving 2 or more weekday hours). Currently DW teaches an early morning religion class to high school students and I serve as a councilor to the leader of our congregation; so the time we currently spend serving in church callings is more than typical. When our previous car's transmission was deemed not worth fixing, we briefly considered trying a car free lifestyle (I had not yet converted to mustachiamism, but had been reading several family biking blogs and already communted by bike/transit). Unfortunately we quickly realized that church activity would suffer (meetinghouse: 8 miles from home, .7 miles from transit; temple: 22 miles from home, 1.5 miles from transit - at the time we typically made one round trip to each weekly). With are current callings, we make lots of extra round trips to the church (I estimate 250-300 miles/month).
MMM says mustachianism is about maximizing happiness, not minimizing work. Even though the costs of church participation are more years at a job; I don't consider it anti-mustachian because the purpose and joy that serving God brings into life. I do look forward to having more time to serve in church (as well as persue other interests) in retirement.
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TL;DR version - In certain respects my Christian faith and Mustachianism are mutually reinforcing, but Mustachianism itself falls short on deeper matters. So Mustachianism is a useful tool, but only God can provide the deeper meaning, purpose and identity that are central to my life.
Frugality and Christianity go hand-in-hand. The primary difference is the end goal.
In MMM, the ultimate goal self-actualization - finding your true happiness and self-fulfillment. This is very common in secular thought and a logical conclusion for those who don't believe in God.
Obviously, in Christianity, our purpose drives deeper to serving Christ. For me, this manifests itself in having different retirement goals than others. Sure, I want to go travel more and have some time for hobbies, etc. But mostly, I'm driven by the dream of fully freeing my time and life up for Christ's purpose and calling in my life.
I still want financial freedom. I just want to use that freedom differently.
+1
I am...evangelical/Pentecostal I guess? I'm not big on denomination labels - I go with what the Bible says. I like mustachianism in general and love that I get challenged to spend on things I value and to optimize my life. And to pursue FIRE - something I never dreamed could be possible. Best of all, I like the ideal of minimalism and living my life more deliberately. Besides, it feels awesome not to waste things.
But as I draw closer to FIRE, I have had to do some internal re-evaluating. I just had this conversation with God this past weekend. Ultimately, my purpose in life is more than just my happiness (although I do believe my Father smiles when I am happy). So ultimately, if He leads me down a different path than FIRE, then I will follow (I'll admit I may kick and scream a little!). Still, it seems to me that I could keep working for the next 20 years for just a few more luxuries we don't need. Or I could FIRE, spend more time on the people I care about, and reach out to those around me in whatever small or big ways we can.
The parable of the rich fool gives me chills every time I read it (Luke 12:12-21):
Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”
Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.” And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest.
He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’ “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’
“But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’
“This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.”
Thank you for sharing this :) Always good to have a reminder that ultimately, there are more important things in life than stuff, even if it's stashed away for retirement!
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Southern Baptist here.
I've found that both viewpoints provide a good balance and supplement for each other. My faith is my main perspective and determines my values. Mustachianism gives a good practical view of how to obtain some of the goals that I'm working toward. Like Minimalism, I find it's a modern application of many of the biblical principles I try to follow.
I've actually struggled with the giving aspect. As I come on here and see people saving 60+% I look at my 25% savings and it can make me question what I'm doing. For me it's been a built-in reminder of why I'm making the decisions I am. I could have a higher savings percentage and retire earlier, but that would only happen if I stopped giving so much, which is something I feel specifically called to do. For me, now that I'm out of debt and financially stable, I can't justify saving much more than I give to the many great causes that I've come across. When I start hoarding my money is when I start to wander away from relying on God.
Thanks for starting this thread. I'm always super interested in the different journeys people go through in their faith. There have been some great responses so far, I'm looking forward to seeing all the different viewpoints!
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I am Roman Catholic, and our church does not specify an amount that we "have" to give (i.e. 10%), but we are called to prayerfully give of our time, talent, and treasure. At this time we give a modest monthly amount, but our parish and diocese gets a lot of our time and talent: my husband is an ordained deacon, and helps a lot with faith formation programs and we both help with sacristy duties. I would like to get to a point where we can give more money, too, but we need to get a few more children through college and a few more debts paid off.
However, just as a reminder, I will quote you from St. Luke's gospel:
Luke 12:16-21
16 And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. 17 He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’
18 “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. 19 And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’
20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’
21 “This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.”
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Thank you for all the lovely, thoughtful responses.
I think the two issues I'm thinking most about right now are:
1. Storing up treasures on earth.
It's not greed, but I think I do find it hard to trust that everything will be alright - both to trust myself and to trust God. I tend to consider the lilies and feel like they're cutting it dangerously fine! My initial searching for early retirement advice was because I was very anxious about the future, and I still somewhat am. Perhaps it is also because I am laying up treasure for myself but don't feel like I am rich with God.
2. Service.
Tithing is not preached in our church, but giving is. We give some money to a non-church charity and my husband gives a lot of time to the church. I don't especially want to get involved with my husband's church, but at present I don't feel like I have a lot to give that people generally want, and I am finding it hard to seek out opportunities for service that align with my talents and interests (basically, I am very organised and efficient but not very good at dealing with people. So no, I do not want to volunteer with the youth group, we will all have a miserable time!). I'm also not able to commit to anything too structured/long term right now. No one advertises for low-key volunteering opportunities that involve a lot of paperwork and sitting down! Urgent FIRE has never been a priority for me, but now that I have enough saved up to not need to worry about the immediate future and am downshifting my working life for other reasons I'm wondering what else life has in store for me and finding it hard to come up with a good answer.
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Interesting discussion, and certainly far better than the normal holy wars that arise about tithing...
We are tithing and I notice no difference in our savings rate! It's been eye opening.
It's amazing how that works, isn't it? Obviously this is not a Scriptural promise, and this is where the prosperity theology manages to twist the Bible, but I've certainly seen this in my life - "You want me to give how much? M'kay... I really don't know where this is coming from, but I'll give." And then, somehow, it works - and I had more. As much as I dislike the associations with the word "stewardship" (visions of the annual Stewardship Sermon growing up), it's a good term. Are we using God's resources for God's Kingdom? We'll be tested with little, and if we are faithful, we'll be given more - yet, expected to be faithful with that as well. I've been tithing(ish - I don't pull out the calculator for every side gig) for a long while now, and I simply don't miss the money. Tithe, max out 401k, and live on the rest. It's not technically first fruits in that I'm paid every 2 weeks and randomly, and church giving is taken out twice a month, but that's just something that comes out regularly. I've actually considered going back to writing a check so it's more in the front of my mind, but haven't gotten there yet. Auto-debit is pretty handy...
The Bible often talks about greed and patience. Anyone thinking of putting money into crypto currencies or the latest hot bio tech stock should read up on those verses.
Certainly, though I'll note that a long hold strategy on Bitcoin from early on would have been very, very profitable. I don't do any day trading, but I made a good chunk of money "selling the shovels" in the late FPGA/early ASIC era when BFL was constantly delaying.
I think I would feel like I was doing something wrong if I had $50,000 sitting in bank for a what if. For me that would not be trusting God to provide for me. That would be trusting in me. I don't worry at all about being not having enough money. Its always there.
I understand your argument, but there are quite a few bits of wisdom in Proverbs about storing up for the future. I'd agree that relying on one's emergency fund or such too much isn't Biblical, but at the same time, we're called to be wise stewards of resources. By your argument on the surface, Joseph wasn't trusting God in storing up grain from the 7 years of good production for the 7 years of famine. We don't know what's coming, and having some ability to buffer that (or simply to have the resources to be generous) is wise preparation.
If you are on the path to FIRE, I'd look at what you plan to do with your time once retired - if you can be FI younger than average, that's huge in terms of having the time and resources to spread the Gospel. Not that many working people have the time to really dedicate to planting churches, reaching out in the community, etc. But FI? Yeah, I can spend my time working for the Kingdom! Better, still, if I have the resources to be generous. So there's a balance to be struck.
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Going back to the original question, it impacts how I spend my time and resources. I'm part of a church that is very, very focused on outreach into the local community and on serving locally. We set aside 10% of the church income into a fund that is dedicated to helping locally - we've bought families a vehicle when they needed one, helped cover rent, been able to give generously to other local organizations, etc. The school we meet at (mobile church) is in a really low income area, so we're working with them to be able to provide resources to students and families - the school has a resource room filled with, literally, things like underwear, socks, peanut butter, Mac & Cheese, etc. We want to partner with the school in being able to be effective with that. I'm planning to organize a more official "garden production swap" next year, where we have a place, on Sunday, to bring our garden production, with a focus on, "If you need something, take something" - if you brought something or not. We had something like that, more unofficially this year, and I've seen some people very, very excited about a giant zucchini, because that's a lot of extra food for them. We meet in a bit of a food desert, but a lot of us have property and gardens. I'm working towards being able to be as productive as I can with my property, not only to meet our own needs, but to be able to be generous with the excess.
What this means, in my own life, is that I try to "default yes" to opportunities to serve and help. I can't always make it, but if I can? I'll be there. Don't care what it is. Let's get our hands dirty and dive in!
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Christian as well. We give about 5-10% of our income away - regular pledgers to our church, a small sum each month to a sick friend, other charities as we come across them.. We will retire soon, not early my MMM standards, but one reason is to do good work while we are still vigorous. Not sure what that will be- food pantry, work in a halfway house, some tutoring are all coming to mind. The idea of endless travel with no home base and no community is not appealing to me at all. Bottom line, people are more important than things.
To answer about denomination- I am Episcopalian. We don't have any standards about giving (no requirement to tithe)- to be a member, you have to contribute to the support of the parish- it doesn't have to be momentary support.
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PTF, this is a very interesting topic and I've enjoyed reading the responses so far. I have spent quite a bit of time in the past couple months thinking about what it means to give, and what my calling in life is. In fact, I ended my full-time employment as of today.
To me, MMM has allowed me to have complete control over my finances, and realize that having extravagant possessions does not make people happy. Happiness is achieved if people have their basic needs met - food, shelter, water, and clothing. Beyond that, the happiness curve drops off considerably.
I am happy with what I have, and I am just now beginning a career that is more rewarding, that I was called to do. I don't need any more money because my basic needs are met. Beyond that, I have countless blessings: a good family and and amazing friends. I hope to give away a considerable portion of my future earnings.
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Our giving rate has most certainly delayed RE. Generally, we've been giving 15-20% to Christian church/ministries for the past 15 years (since I lost my job and eventually did some contracting for a decade - now back to full-time).
I assume the % will remain about the same after retirement, but the amount will decrease. However, we'll be making up that shortfall with more time to volunteer like I had while un/self-employed. I could see myself in some kind of mobile disaster relief role (I had worked 9 weeks on/off the first few months after Katrina) and but we have no shortage of ministry projects that could be done in town.
FWIW, I just consider myself a disciple of Jesus, trying to love others as He loved me. Really don't care for denominations since we are supposed to be one unified Body. Disasters are when we come closest to acting that way sadly. I attend both United Methodist and Pentecostal churches.
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I asked about denomination because it helps to have a general sense of people's ecclesiastical background. Different churches emphasise different things so when people talk about things like tithing it's nice to know where they're coming from and to contextualise it in the general tone of that church.
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I asked about denomination because it helps to have a general sense of people's ecclesiastical background. Different churches emphasise different things so when people talk about things like tithing it's nice to know where they're coming from and to contextualise it in the general tone of that church.
I've appreciated seeing the different perspectives. I think we might have more in common with each other as fellow Christians who seek FI through frugality than we do gwnerally with other members of our respective denominations. Thanks for starting this thread.
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DH and I are Roman Catholic and have been all our lives (except the first few weeks ;-)).
Unlike most people who've posted, I find that my faith is kind of in tension with Mustachianism, and in fact I don't consider myself a Real Mustachian (TM). Christianity is not in tension with frugality, but MMM is about a lot more than frugality. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/23/not-extreme-frugality/
Fundamentally, it seems to me, MMM and RE is about independence, and to my mind that's not truly compatible with the Christian view of human life. We all owe a lot to others, and we're all called to share what we have with others; being independent is not the goal of Christian life.
That said, although we were frugal before we heard of MMM, the frugality side of Mustachianism, especially the encouragement to DIY, has been helpful. We're not especially interested in retiring early; frugality is instead what has allowed us to have seven kids in a HCOL area on one philosophy salary.
Finally, another way in which I think we are a bit of an anomaly is that the community of the forums is not of great importance. We have a terrific parish community IRL, full of other families trying to live by the teachings of the Church, definitely countercultural compared to the North American norm. If we felt like oddballs in our parish, I'd probably need the support of the forums more.
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Fundamentally, it seems to me, MMM and RE is about independence, and to my mind that's not truly compatible with the Christian view of human life. We all owe a lot to others, and we're all called to share what we have with others; being independent is not the goal of Christian life.
I find it interesting to hear that perspective, because I see it differently--independence doesn't mean isolating ourselves from other people, it's financial independence, which enables us to use our means (whether it be money, time, talents, etc) to better our lives and make a positive impact on those around us.
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Fundamentally, it seems to me, MMM and RE is about independence, and to my mind that's not truly compatible with the Christian view of human life. We all owe a lot to others, and we're all called to share what we have with others; being independent is not the goal of Christian life.
I find it interesting to hear that perspective, because I see it differently--independence doesn't mean isolating ourselves from other people, it's financial independence, which enables us to use our means (whether it be money, time, talents, etc) to better our lives and make a positive impact on those around us.
+1
In my mind, financial independence unbinds me from wage slavery, freeing me to commit more of my time to serve God's purpose. God's purpose could be that I continue to work in a career, or not. But right now, I don't have the choice.
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I think there are many examples of MMM being about interdependence: being free to help out friends and family members with projects, going in together with neighbors on internet, etc. The only independence I see is learning to be self-sufficient with DIY type stuff instead of purchasing services. Bartering services with others is very much encouraged, on the other hand.
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1. Storing up treasures on earth.
I've had similar thoughts. For me, I settled on being responsible and saving enough to get to a place of security without hoarding so much that nothing can ever cause me problems. Life happens and trying to make sure I'm protected against any eventuality is when I rely too much on myself.
Also, a big challenge for me has been being okay with the idea that at any time God can tell me to give it all away and I have to be willing to follow through with that. Just that idea is a constant challenge to keep my heart and mind in the right place.
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Lutheran here.
We do not tithe, but paying our church and several charities comes out of our paychecks first each month (at the same time we make 401K contributions and our mortgage), so I feel that it is a priority. We contribute about 7% of our income, plus some of our time. Our estate plans include significant charitable giving later in life beyond what we are doing now.
I think a lot about the concept of "enough." Other Christian minimalists (e.g Joshua Becker) have written eloquently about this. I do believe that we should save "enough" but then not hoard. A lack of generosity when we have our needs satisfied separates us from others and from God. I think that the root of most sin is separation from others and from God.
I have some Quaker heritage as well and meditate frequently on Quaker values (SPICES), which include simplicity. Sometimes when I am struggling with decisions to pare back my wants and to be less materialistic I remind myself of these Quaker values and tell myself that if I stick to them and use them to navigate my way in the world I will be okay. They've worked for previous generations, quite well in fact.
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1. Storing up treasures on earth.
It's not greed, but I think I do find it hard to trust that everything will be alright - both to trust myself and to trust God. . . . Perhaps it is also because I am laying up treasure for myself but don't feel like I am rich with God.
2. Service.
. . . at present I don't feel like I have a lot to give that people generally want, and I am finding it hard to seek out opportunities for service that align with my talents and interests . . . No one advertises for low-key volunteering opportunities that involve a lot of paperwork and sitting down! . . . I'm wondering what else life has in store for me and finding it hard to come up with a good answer.
I've been thinking about these off and on the past couple days. I think, especially if you're relatively new in your faith, it may be more productive to focus on developing your own prayer life for now and letting the opportunities for service find you later in due time. I don't know if your church would offer confession / reconciliation, but I find it helpful for refocusing sometimes. Making time to pray and finding the motivation to keep trying with it can be hard, but it's worthwhile. Maybe try meditating on the Lord's Prayer and talk to God some about the things that keep coming back as concerns. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2011:1-13
Sorry to go a little off topic. The only thing this has to do with Mustachianism is that it's free.
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It doesn't affect me whatsoever...I'm not sure how the two could be considered incompatible? In other words, how does saving money and being mindful of spending somehow go against the teachings of the bible? If anything, as others have noted, such activity is encouraged in the bible. Love your neighbour as yourself, love your god with all your heart, mind, soul.
I give at my church. I also give to other charities throughout the year. "mustachianism" hasn't changed that at all.
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It doesn't affect me whatsoever...I'm not sure how the two could be considered incompatible? In other words, how does saving money and being mindful of spending somehow go against the teachings of the bible?
For me, lifelong frugal, it is the extreme aversion to waste. The idea that a charity could take the money that I have saved with much care, and waste it on excessive admin costs or just budget items that I would consider wasteful, makes me fearful of giving. I don't think stewardship means just tossing money to anything to feel good and fulfill your obligation (not implying anyone here does this). I think one is called into account for using the money effectively. Doesn't mean I don't give at all, but it hinders giving, and provides an excuse for not giving what I should.
Born Episcopalian, then born-again non-denominational. Now, reconsidering everything, including church.
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Non-denominational Christian
Full 10% on gross salary. Aim for 10% of side hustle income, although I don't keep good track of that. It has never been a problem or much of a thought. Honestly, I wish I would know ahead of time when the preacher was going to talk about giving/tithing so I could skip the sermon that day. I know it delays and has delayed FIRE or other personal financial goals.
As it relates to Mustachianism, my sister, a very casual reader of the articles I send to her, observed that it is line with what others have also mentioned. Specifically Romains 12:2, "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind."
While I only have debt in the form of a mortgage, I would argue that Christians need to get their spending/debt/hair-on-fire in order before donating to charity or they essentially become the charity. Romans 13:8a, "Let no debt remain outstanding."
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I thought I’d ask my fellow Mustachians who are also Christians about how your faith affects your Mustachianism. Do please also say which denomination you are!
Methodist. Because of our beliefs, I don't calculate "savings rate" (which would be dismal). I calculate "don't spend on us rate".
All we have is God's. We found out He doesn't mind when people over-tithe His money. :)
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I don't know, you have the doctrinal teachings of the various Christian traditions, then you have the Gospel teachings of Jesus himself. With the former, I think you can generally live in the world and make and save money, so long as you are not mastered by money. With the latter, I'm not so sure, because Jesus was radically counter-cultural for his time, and still is today. The monastic tradition is probably the best example of living a Christian life in accordance with the teachings of Jesus on money.
FWIW I am an Episcopalian and I live in the world, not in a monastery.
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I find myself trying to find small continuous ways to save so I can give enough cheerfully.
Also find myself struggling with this verse. Even though being wealthy isn't a sin, it does provide an enormous responsibility to remember
who actually owans any wealth I have
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
http://biblehub.com/matthew/19-24.htm
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For me, lifelong frugal, it is the extreme aversion to waste. The idea that a charity could take the money that I have saved with much care, and waste it on excessive admin costs or just budget items that I would consider wasteful, makes me fearful of giving.
I agree with that 100%. That's why I generally research who to give to. I give most to MSF (doctors without borders) because over 80% of every dollar actually makes it to the people on the ground. Not to mention they do amazing work in the most dangerous places (like how the US blew up one of their hospitals a year or so ago in an airstrike killing several of their doctors..terrible stuff). I also donate to local causes.
Otherwise many charities feel like a scam. My mom gives to a couple and now she gets spammed EVERY DAY by other charities via snail mail. You should see some of the stuff. Blatantly trying to guilt people into giving. Or they send a 'free gift' like a calculator and ask that you send them money in return as a donation. Red Cross is terrible for this. So is the SPCA and a few others. I feel it really cheapens their brands, though I do in principle believe in their work..just not their administration. Anyways, enough of a rant :)
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OP: Doesnt affect it at all
They are orthogonal.
What does your faith have to do with monetary affairs?
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I find myself trying to find small continuous ways to save so I can give enough cheerfully.
Also find myself struggling with this verse. Even though being wealthy isn't a sin, it does provide an enormous responsibility to remember
who actually owans any wealth I have
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
http://biblehub.com/matthew/19-24.htm
I believe that verse isn't about 'being rich' - more like being greedy. Or being wealthy at the expense of others (i.e. running a business and taking advantage of workers or something). Also, the reality is the bible is full of all kinds of things and each denomination essentially picks and chooses what to follow and what not to follow. So personally, I say go with whatever you feel most comfortable with, and as was summed up earlier 'love your god, and love you neighbour as yourself - in so doing, all other commandments are fulfilled' (i'm paraphrasing).
Don't be wasteful, be thankful always, take care of your family, help your neighbour when you are able.
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I drink only what Jesus drank -- water and wine.
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Thank you for all the lovely, thoughtful responses.
I think the two issues I'm thinking most about right now are:
1. Storing up treasures on earth.
It's not greed, but I think I do find it hard to trust that everything will be alright - both to trust myself and to trust God. I tend to consider the lilies and feel like they're cutting it dangerously fine! My initial searching for early retirement advice was because I was very anxious about the future, and I still somewhat am. Perhaps it is also because I am laying up treasure for myself but don't feel like I am rich with God.
In a Christian worldview, "Mustachianism" would be referred to as "stewardship".
In my view stewardship has to do with being self sufficient as well as taking care of the resources we've been blessed with. One of the best ways to become self sufficient is to make that stash grow. I have also noticed that as my stash has grown (and I still have a long way to go to be FI), I have become more conscientious and willing to maybe pay more for something that will impact the environment less, whereas before I might not have had that as an option just because of $$.
2. Service.
Tithing is not preached in our church, but giving is. We give some money to a non-church charity and my husband gives a lot of time to the church. I don't especially want to get involved with my husband's church, but at present I don't feel like I have a lot to give that people generally want, and I am finding it hard to seek out opportunities for service that align with my talents and interests (basically, I am very organised and efficient but not very good at dealing with people. So no, I do not want to volunteer with the youth group, we will all have a miserable time!). I'm also not able to commit to anything too structured/long term right now. No one advertises for low-key volunteering opportunities that involve a lot of paperwork and sitting down! Urgent FIRE has never been a priority for me, but now that I have enough saved up to not need to worry about the immediate future and am downshifting my working life for other reasons I'm wondering what else life has in store for me and finding it hard to come up with a good answer.
My church has been encouraging us to use Justserve.org, which has many organizations contributing service needs to it. (I'm LDS, also known as Mormon). You type in your zip code and can find service opportunities in organizations in your area, maybe you can find something that fits your time and talents. When I typed in my zip code it popped up stuff with the animal shelters in the area, and food banks so not necessarily things that requires a whole lot of people interaction.
As our stash grows, DH and I eventually would like to be able to go on missions, which are self funded. A healthy stash would help us do that as well as be able to give where we feel it would be most beneficial.
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Garden Variety Protestant here.
I give to my church every month. We don't have any official tithing requirement and don't pass a collection plate during the service. We just have boxes by the entrance for gifts.
In regard to mustachianism and my faith, I suppose there are only a couple of things that I come across in the forums and I think even in Pete's posts that sometimes give me pause. The notion of waiting until I'm FI myself before I start to give money away strikes me as a bit un-Christ like. I don't judge anyone else if that's how they approach it. Certainly if you give of your own time rather than financially, that is in some ways even more charitable than writing a check.
I also wonder if it isn't a bit selfish to retire early. I'm not saying that it is or it isn't, it's just something that I think about. Do I have any responsibility to continue to work so that I could provide money to other people who perhaps don't have the ability to generate income like I do or so that I am continuing to pay taxes and especially so that I am not in any way free riding on society? When we learn about the somewhat complex financial loopholes that would simultaneously allow us to have a million dollars in the bank but also get subsidies on healthcare or avoid paying income taxes by leveraging Roth ladders, etc, is that in some way unethical? Does the fact that we could continue to work obligate us in some way to work?
I'm not at all saying anyone shouldn't do these things, or that I won't myself do them, just that I do think about it in light of my faith.
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My church has been encouraging us to use Justserve.org, which has many organizations contributing service needs to it. (I'm LDS, also known as Mormon). You type in your zip code and can find service opportunities in organizations in your area, maybe you can find something that fits your time and talents. When I typed in my zip code it popped up stuff with the animal shelters in the area, and food banks so not necessarily things that requires a whole lot of people interaction.
Full disclosure: justserve.org is provided by the LDS Church. It is a free listing website (funded entirely by donations to the church) designed to connect volunteers with community based service opportunities. I don't think there has been any effort to expand justserve.org beyond the United States yet (there are currently no projects listed for London, England, so probably not useful to the OP).
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In our case, not enough.
Having a commitment to a church community means having a physical site (the church) that has to be factored into where you live. My wife and I chose our current house before we knew where that church would be, and before we knew where her parents would settle (they moved 1,000 miles to live in our area about three years after we moved here). We're discussing a medium-term goal of moving to re-optimize based on these two locations.
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In a Christian worldview, "Mustachianism" would be referred to as "stewardship". I have read many, many books on the subject. But you really can't beat the New Testament. You cannot serve both God and Mammon. Don't be a fool, storing your extra wealth in more barns. Your very life could be demanded of you tonight.
This is true in many ways, but I think there is a distinction worth making.
The word "steward" as used in the New Testament greek (ex 1 Peter 4:10) literally means "household manager" or one who manages the household affairs (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g3623). This is a person with a great deal of responsibility to manage all aspects of the estate. So the biblical concept of stewardship is rooted in the idea of being an esteemed servant, a manager of resources rather than an owner. And it's not really about money, though money is part of it. The greek word for steward is the same one used in 1 Corinthians 4:1 (often translated "as those entrusted with") when talking about the Gospel - so we are also to be stewards or managers of the Gospel.
Rather unfortunately, a lot of churches make stewardship exclusively about money. Basically, be good stewards of money so you can give to the church. That Mustachianism includes a focus on not just money but also the environment, health, time -- a more comprehensive view of managing life -- is closer to the understanding of biblical stewardship than those focused only on money.
Where I think plain Mustachianism differs is on the issue of ownership. The Christian perspective is that we don't own anything (we are managers in God's house). That doesn't mean you necessarily give it all away, though that might be the right answer for some. But whatever you do, do it for God, whether that's retiring early (perhaps to volunteer and serve others), or keep working even though we don't need to so that we can donate more.
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I drink only what Jesus drank -- water and wine.
Hahaha! WWJD exactly. Water or wine today? My daughter and I loved this reply.
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I love how MMM reinforces Christianity for me (Lutheran, which, here, is closely tied to Anglican).
1) Theme of Stewardship -- not just of money, but especially of environmental stewardship, not being wasteful, using my skills and gifts for others, growing my skills to make better use of what I have been given, etc.
2) Tithing -- not really a thing with our church... But reading MMM and being very conservative with "optional" money spend made me realize that if I have money to spend on me, I have money to spend on the church too. I set a goal that I would match any personal spend with 20% to the next week donation (over my modest normal amount). Suddenly getting the latest "whatever" that I don't really need looks a lot more expensive... or eating out at a restaurant I think "Set a place for Jesus", etc. This helped me to double down on my budgeting when I needed change habits.
3) Lots of inexpensive activities, and many are volunteer. I am in Choir, for example, and there is a games night.
3b) Great tasks for organized people that are not people people -- Sit on the council, join buildings and grounds for Project management / coordinating contractors and volunteers, assist in the office, be backstage support for pre-registration for the annual kid's camp, update the webpage.. etc., etc. I just finished creating a database for our church office.... and am currently working on updating the bylaws document. (UGH but overdue).
4) Family benefits -- I am able to get the kids to volunteer frequently, in church and greater community, because of all the church based volunteer roles. Because of this, DD had enough hours (over 400 hour of volunteering in 3 years) to qualify for several scholarships.
5) I can bike to church, and I sometimes do! That's MMM, if nothing else.
6) I am not defined by money. I don't need to FIRE with $5million.. enough money is enough, and the rest of my time and money can be returned to the person it belongs to (God). MMM truly made me break my focus on money, funny enough. The Blog is great. Work = Money = Things is not an equation that resonates with me.. at all...
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I'm loosely Christian - not confirmed into the Church, and the church I loosely associate with doesn't actually require that. You don't have to be a member to be part of the community (Remonstrant).
I was raised Catholic and was always deeply inspired by monastic life ( I grew up very close to a convent) and plain people. I believe strongly in living simply and frugally. I never fit into the Catholic church because of its overly materialistic tendencies.
Edit: seems half of my post disappeared. I'll come back to this thread later.
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As I promised, here's the rest of my post.
For me, simple living is one of the core principles of the message of Jesus. You don't want material things to distract you from your spiritual life. Giving to other people is also a core principle that I attach a lot of value to, although I don't equal that to giving money to a church. It does mean that we give to other people around us even when it's not convenient for us. A friend of ours lost his home and he stayed in our spare bedroom (in our 900 square foot home) for a year. It wasn't always convenient and this particular friend also doesn't have the easiest character. Still, we are very happy that we were able to provide him with a roof over his head for a year. We don't believe we only need to care for other people once we're completely done caring for ourselves. This is where I disagree with MMM too: there's no need to be FI before you start giving to others. I believe in sharing your wealth in all stages of life.
For me, looking after myself financially and desiring FI isn't completely incompatible with my beliefs (as others have noted, preparedness is important too) but you have to watch out for greed. When the Gospel talks about rich people, I think they mean greedy people, people who keep all their wealth to themselves and hurt other people to gain it. I like to think that I'm not like that (but I'm extremely far from FI right now). If you are FI, you can also choose to spend your time doing things that are good for this world instead of doing things that are bad for the world just to earn a living. FI gives freedom of conscience. I also like the MMM approach of becoming FI not for the sake of a life of luxury, but as a way to self-fulfillment (or what many Christians would call ministry). Time to do what you feel called to do, instead of living in the world.
I like the focus on simplefying life too. That's what I really appreciate about the plain people - they don't adopt every new technology mindlessly, just because they can. We don't have a car on purpose. It means we're 'stuck at home' - a job needs to be within biking or public traffic distance. It forces us to spend more time at home, which is what we really want to do, deep inside. If you have a car on your driveway, there's a much bigger temptation to use it and go away from home instead of spending time at home with your family. I also don't have internet on my cell phone, because I don't need that temptation of being online 24/7. We don't have wifi at work, so at work, I work. My coworkers can call me on my phone when I'm home, but they don't do that unless there's something really important going on. It's much easier to send someone a message on whatsapp, but I don't want that distraction in my private life. I want to FIRE to a more rural area eventually, and I can see ourselves living much more simply then than we already do now.
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I drink only what Jesus drank -- water and wine.
In the Southern Baptist version of the story, Jesus transformed the water into sweet tea.
Nondenominational Christian here. Nothing much to add, but have enjoyed the discussion. We've given to our church and charities our adult life. We will move after retirement next summer, so among many things, we will need to find a new church.
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Lutheran and Baptist here.
Mustachianism is not in conflict with our faith. We give to the church and as many others have pointed out that Mustachianism is a form of stewardship. One of our goals after reaching FIRE is to be able to volunteer and give back.
Romans 13:8 - Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
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On one hand I could say "gee, if I could save that 10% instead of give it to a church my stash would be much better off". Yet, I feel blessed that my income has increased every year and we've paid off a ton of debt.
All of these things we were doing before finding this website. Prior to this website it was minimalism (becoming minimalist etc.), and prior to that was Dave Ramsey. Plus my financial advising history and literature, it made it clear regardless of your income you can make saving a big priority. Our desire is to have the house paid off and then retire/career #2 for me. Ironically, I want to get back into financial advising.
So I don't feel faith has effected it, if anything, the opposite is true. Faith has lead me here, to this website, to this point.
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Why do so many people think "affected" has to be negative?
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Why do so many people think "affected" has to be negative?
Between that an confusing affect and effect, this thread is getting more and more confusing.
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We are frugal, but not because we want to retire early, exactly. Both my husband (a social worker) and I (a teacher) have careers that we find deeply meaningful and rewarding, and for us working is (mostly) joyful.
But our credo is "radical generosity" and it is heavily influenced by Richard Foster, a Quaker who wrote Freedom of Simplicity and several other excellent books. So instead of being frugal in order to amass an enormous "stache" of wealth, we aim to give as much as we can away while still being responsible about saving for the future.
We save 15% of our income in retirement accounts, tithe 10% to our non-denominational church that meets at a community gym and gives heavily to the poor, and give 5% additionally to causes we find meaningful. In the future, when we aren't trying to pay off a mortgage early and pay for daycare for two children, we hope to give much more. Eventually our goal is to become FI so that we can pursue some kind of service regardless of pay. That won't be for at least fifteen more years, but I imagine it would look something like teaching at a missionary school or working at an orphanage abroad. That's our long-term vision, anyway.
So yes, we are very, very frugal, despite the fact that our combined salaries are north of $150k. We drive old cars and most of the things we buy are used. This blog and the forums are quite helpful in aiding frugality. Our motivation, however, is sometimes a bit different. We aren't using wealth in order to get out of the rat race. We don't feel as though we are in a rat race.
In a Christian worldview, "Mustachianism" would be referred to as "stewardship". I have read many, many books on the subject. But you really can't beat the New Testament. You cannot serve both God and Mammon. Don't be a fool, storing your extra wealth in more barns. Your very life could be demanded of you tonight.
Whenever I look at my retirement accounts, I kind of shake my head and think of the foolish farmer in the parable. To me, the money we give away is the only money that has any kind of eternal value.
This is a really great post and the bolded sentence is beautiful! Thank you.
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Why do so many people think "affected" has to be negative?
I didn't pick up on that until you pointed it out, but it might be a US English vs UK English difference in how the word is most commonly used.
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=affect
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/affect
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2. Service.
Tithing is not preached in our church, but giving is. We give some money to a non-church charity and my husband gives a lot of time to the church. I don't especially want to get involved with my husband's church, but at present I don't feel like I have a lot to give that people generally want, and I am finding it hard to seek out opportunities for service that align with my talents and interests (basically, I am very organised and efficient but not very good at dealing with people. So no, I do not want to volunteer with the youth group, we will all have a miserable time!). I'm also not able to commit to anything too structured/long term right now. No one advertises for low-key volunteering opportunities that involve a lot of paperwork and sitting down! Urgent FIRE has never been a priority for me, but now that I have enough saved up to not need to worry about the immediate future and am downshifting my working life for other reasons I'm wondering what else life has in store for me and finding it hard to come up with a good answer.
SLTD I have the perfect sitting down paperwork job for you - treasurer (ie bookkeeper). Shame you don’t live closer because our church is looking for a new one, their current (excellent) treasurer is having twins in a few weeks!
This could be for any organisation you care about. The work is not time-specific so you can do it whenever. You might have to attend meetings perhaps monthly, but i have found if you are volunteering people are understanding about other commitments. Write a few cheques, tally up some figures in columns and present “the accounts” to much acclaim once a year. You can go for a small or a large roll just by considering /asking the number of bank transactions in a given month. Your local community centre, scouts, refugee assistance organisation, dog’s home, all these places need a competent bookkeeper, just depends what cause you are into.
Anyway, just an idea for something service-related that I thought might be a good fit for your skills. Though I know you might not be looking to take something else on right now.
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2. Service.
Tithing is not preached in our church, but giving is. We give some money to a non-church charity and my husband gives a lot of time to the church. I don't especially want to get involved with my husband's church, but at present I don't feel like I have a lot to give that people generally want, and I am finding it hard to seek out opportunities for service that align with my talents and interests (basically, I am very organised and efficient but not very good at dealing with people. So no, I do not want to volunteer with the youth group, we will all have a miserable time!). I'm also not able to commit to anything too structured/long term right now. No one advertises for low-key volunteering opportunities that involve a lot of paperwork and sitting down! Urgent FIRE has never been a priority for me, but now that I have enough saved up to not need to worry about the immediate future and am downshifting my working life for other reasons I'm wondering what else life has in store for me and finding it hard to come up with a good answer.
SLTD I have the perfect sitting down paperwork job for you - treasurer (ie bookkeeper). Shame you don’t live closer because our church is looking for a new one, their current (excellent) treasurer is having twins in a few weeks!
This could be for any organisation you care about. The work is not time-specific so you can do it whenever. You might have to attend meetings perhaps monthly, but i have found if you are volunteering people are understanding about other commitments. Write a few cheques, tally up some figures in columns and present “the accounts” to much acclaim once a year. You can go for a small or a large roll just by considering /asking the number of bank transactions in a given month. Your local community centre, scouts, refugee assistance organisation, dog’s home, all these places need a competent bookkeeper, just depends what cause you are into.
Anyway, just an idea for something service-related that I thought might be a good fit for your skills. Though I know you might not be looking to take something else on right now.
That does sound kinda good, but I just worry about the responsibility of having to keep track of the organisation's money. I don't have any experience of actual bookkeeping (although obviously I can do maths and use Excel) - what if I mess it up and get in trouble? I've been a volunteer secretary before, though, and quite enjoyed it. I take some fierce minutes! :) I might do some research on local organisations - my main problem is that I'd want them to be hyper-local (like, fifteen minute walk) and I don't know the area well enough yet to know what's around.
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Mustachianism is a good complement to a Christian life. Christianity (when actually followed) is in opposition to wastefulness and selfishness. Mustachianism is about working hard to get enough and then being satisfied with enough while you use your time in purposeful ways.
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That does sound kinda good, but I just worry about the responsibility of having to keep track of the organisation's money. I don't have any experience of actual bookkeeping (although obviously I can do maths and use Excel) - what if I mess it up and get in trouble? I've been a volunteer secretary before, though, and quite enjoyed it. I take some fierce minutes! :) I might do some research on local organisations - my main problem is that I'd want them to be hyper-local (like, fifteen minute walk) and I don't know the area well enough yet to know what's around.
You wouldn’t mess it up! Honestly it’s super simple, and most very small organisations will have very few transactions. The only hard part is if there’s any cash being handled, because I find volunteers can’t count, and even when someone ‘double checks’ it, either than person can’t count, doesn’t count, or they don’t want to disagree with the first person. I count all cash given to me in front of the person now, and make sure we both agree how much it is.
My good friend is our secretary and she enjoys it. The work is a bit more time-sensitive (eg getting minutes and agendas out in time for meetings) but it’s not an ”every Tuesday at 8pm whether I feel like it or not” kind of commitment, which is what I hate.
Just keep your eyes open as you walk around. If you spot a community centre or church hall look on the notice board for different groups. As you get to know the area better you’ll see what’s around (and mat leave will be great for that, you’ll be at the library / surgery etc going to groups and getting the baby weighed and meet lots of people involved in different things!)
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SLTD I have the perfect sitting down paperwork job for you - treasurer (ie bookkeeper). Shame you don’t live closer because our church is looking for a new one, their current (excellent) treasurer is having twins in a few weeks!
This could be for any organisation you care about. The work is not time-specific so you can do it whenever. You might have to attend meetings perhaps monthly, but i have found if you are volunteering people are understanding about other commitments. Write a few cheques, tally up some figures in columns and present “the accounts” to much acclaim once a year. You can go for a small or a large roll just by considering /asking the number of bank transactions in a given month. Your local community centre, scouts, refugee assistance organisation, dog’s home, all these places need a competent bookkeeper, just depends what cause you are into.
Anyway, just an idea for something service-related that I thought might be a good fit for your skills. Though I know you might not be looking to take something else on right now.
That does sound kinda good, but I just worry about the responsibility of having to keep track of the organisation's money. I don't have any experience of actual bookkeeping (although obviously I can do maths and use Excel) - what if I mess it up and get in trouble? I've been a volunteer secretary before, though, and quite enjoyed it. I take some fierce minutes! :) I might do some research on local organisations - my main problem is that I'd want them to be hyper-local (like, fifteen minute walk) and I don't know the area well enough yet to know what's around.
Treasurer for a church may be very different depending on the size and age of the church. There may be tax-related reporting and rules relating to charitable status and gift aid. There might be investments in an endowment, building loan complications, bequests, emergency payments needed if the roof blows off in a storm, etc. I wouldn't take on something like that lightly without some prior experience or training. Treasurer for a small local club without a building might be possible with less fuss.
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Non-denominational here in the most literal possible sense. This is a great topic, and I've enjoyed many of the responses.
As mentioned previously, Mustachianism/FIRE is simply a means to an end. In and of itself, it means nothing. But frugality fits perfectly with the life Christians are called to live. It's been exciting to see what's possible in the kingdom with these principles.
For me and DW, it's about reaching FIRE so we can spend full time doing ministry/aide work without the need for income -- so it's in complete unity. This is also why we're trying to make our FIRE number minimal, to get there ASAP and need to allocate as little to our own living as possible.
Regarding tithing, we do 10%+, but not specifically to the local church, rather, to any cause that spreads the gospel and helps the helpless. I've thought about it plenty, but to me giving back that first 10% to God is all about faithfulness and faith (trust) in God's plan. I mean, if the tithe/firstfruits sacrifice was a big deal all the way back to Cain and Abel, I can't see it not being important today. Besides, even though our goal is to fund ministry with FIRE, storing up treasures in heaven should be priority #1 both now and then. God can bring unexpected cashflow and/or expenses; we really control much less than we give ourselves credit for sometimes. Being faithful now gives God the reins and makes our lives more open to his plans -- which are better than ours. As others have mentioned, He always honors that faithfulness.
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Well said. I kind of consider my current firehose of cash situation as "seven years of harvest", and would not be surprised to have "seven years of famine" coming up soon. Given that SO is interested in international development work, and his idea of a good time is sleeping in a tobacco drying shed in some small village while working with the locals, seven years of famine sounds about right.
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Regarding tithing, we do 10%+, but not specifically to the local church, rather, to any cause that spreads the gospel and helps the helpless. I've thought about it plenty, but to me giving back that first 10% to God is all about faithfulness and faith (trust) in God's plan. I mean, if the tithe/firstfruits sacrifice was a big deal all the way back to Cain and Abel, I can't see it not being important today. Besides, even though our goal is to fund ministry with FIRE, storing up treasures in heaven should be priority #1 both now and then. God can bring unexpected cashflow and/or expenses; we really control much less than we give ourselves credit for sometimes. Being faithful now gives God the reins and makes our lives more open to his plans -- which are better than ours. As others have mentioned, He always honors that faithfulness.
That's pretty much how I approach tithing. I think the 10% thing is for people who may be challenged a bit in their charitable giving and need a guideline to help them out. Personally, I give to the church to help with operational expenses plus their charity programs and then I'm involved in various other charitable organizations that I help regularly -- especially when they have emergency situations. Thanks to Mustachianism, I have a lot of extra money that can be used for these purposes, so when folks run into really difficult problems -- like health emergencies -- I have the money to help them out.
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Ex-Catholic here, haven't really figured out yet if other forms of Christianity might be a good fit, just wanted to chime in to say I've found this conversation interesting. I'm still very much influenced by my religious upbringing, which was very conservative Catholic but of the Charistmatic Renewal type, not the Latin Mass/High Church type of conservative.
Charity is something I really struggle with. I struggle with slowing down our FIRE journey, especially since we came in to Mustachianism in poor financial health, thinking that in achieving our baseline goals sooner and then doing charitable work our total lifetime charity will be highest. But maybe that's my natural tight-fistedness speaking.
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Ex-Catholic here, haven't really figured out yet if other forms of Christianity might be a good fit, just wanted to chime in to say I've found this conversation interesting. I'm still very much influenced by my religious upbringing, which was very conservative Catholic but of the Charistmatic Renewal type, not the Latin Mass/High Church type of conservative.
Charity is something I really struggle with. I struggle with slowing down our FIRE journey, especially since we came in to Mustachianism in poor financial health, thinking that in achieving our baseline goals sooner and then doing charitable work our total lifetime charity will be highest. But maybe that's my natural tight-fistedness speaking.
I think that's just a different approach, not necessarily a better or worse option. I don't believe in a one-size-fits-all approach. Which is also why I'm not really a supporter of tithing. Of course it's a good thing to make it a habit to support charity, but I have also met people who seem to think they can 'buy off' their sins by giving 10% to church.
One of the more important men in the (Catholic) church I grew up in was a guy like that. He owned a local business that employed a lot of people, he had plenty of money and gave very generously to the church. His wife and kids were very active in the church community, they seemed to be decent enough people, but he was a pretty nasty guy. He was arrogant, creepy around women, partied heavily when away on business trips. Giving to charity is a good habit, but for some people tithing is a really easy thing to do and it kind of justifies everything else for them. I believe that you should try to be charitable every day of your life, not just on payday when you write the check to your church.
One way I try to be charitable is by opening up our home, sharing our food, house and when necessary our belongings. We know a lot of people who live out of town but need to visit this place for a few days every now and then. The door to our guest bedroom is always open to everyone, we have taken in a friend who became homeless for a year. We try to invite people to share our holidays with us as well. The holiday part is always fun, but people staying over is sometimes a bit testing, especially if they're staying for a longer period of time like the homeless friend. I strongly feel like this is something we have to do regardless of the minor inconvenience to us. We are so lucky that we have a warm home with a guest bedroom, it'd be incredibly selfish if we didn't share that with people who don't have that.
One of the main reasons why I grew disenchanted with the Catholic church is because I saw in my local parish how much money the church needed to spend on itself, rather than on charity, and that they needed it so desperately they were willing to put up with the behaviour of nasty guys like that local rich guy. I don't think that's something that happens only in Catholic churches, by the way - after all, the core of the Christian belief is that people are by nature sinful - but seeing this as a teenager attracted me to the plain people. That's a movement that hardly exists in Europe, but I think I read every book in the library about them. In a way, nonconformity to the world is a practice that is also central to Mustachianism. We try to live a very simple life on purpose. Even though we are not members of a particular church or regular churchgoers, I think this part of the faith is central to our lives.
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For me, lifelong frugal, it is the extreme aversion to waste. The idea that a charity could take the money that I have saved with much care, and waste it on excessive admin costs or just budget items that I would consider wasteful, makes me fearful of giving.
I agree with that 100%. That's why I generally research who to give to. I give most to MSF (doctors without borders) because over 80% of every dollar actually makes it to the people on the ground. Not to mention they do amazing work in the most dangerous places (like how the US blew up one of their hospitals a year or so ago in an airstrike killing several of their doctors..terrible stuff). I also donate to local causes.
Otherwise many charities feel like a scam. My mom gives to a couple and now she gets spammed EVERY DAY by other charities via snail mail. You should see some of the stuff. Blatantly trying to guilt people into giving. Or they send a 'free gift' like a calculator and ask that you send them money in return as a donation. Red Cross is terrible for this. So is the SPCA and a few others. I feel it really cheapens their brands, though I do in principle believe in their work..just not their administration. Anyways, enough of a rant :)
+1. I research who to give to. I do admit I do not support some programs that the church I attended because I consider it wasteful. I am sure I am the minority or the only one who thinks this way, but I am fine with this.
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I am a "lapsed" Eastern Orthodox. I do not attend church (save most years Easter, palm Sunday) but do practice Lent. I do not intend in the future on being part of an organized religion. Tithing a specific amount was not emphasized in the church I attended, though giving during Lent and Christmas - New Years is. My grandmother was a big influence on me. She was devout, but did not advertise it. She did not do any missionary trips or grand gestures, but lived her life needing very little, keeping busy and giving to those around her. Stewardship to me, not just helping people, is about taking care of this earth that we all depend. So I perhaps have diverged from standard Christianity in that humans and our souls are not the end all and be all.
The other big influence on me has been the philosophy of Taoism. Among other things, it states the only thing that is constant, is change. Life itself is temporal. Although it is an essential part of the human condition, attachment (to other people, and particularly to material things) leads to suffering. This philosophy helps me put things in perspective. All of these beliefs, leads to a life that is more about doing, than consuming. You have to consume to live, but when you are around loved ones and involved more with doing than consuming, a little goes a long way, and is more joyful.
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My grandmother is inspiring like that too. She's never preachy about religion, she doesn't mind if you're not religious at all, but the main theme throughout her life has been caring for other people. She raised her children and her grandchildren, she was devoted to her husband until his death, she cared for many friends and neighbours during the last years of their lives. She's always looking out for lonely people in her community. She has been quietly serving other people for her entire life. She's well in her 80s now and not fit enough to care for others physically, but she still lives independently and she's still looking out for other people. She still has people she cooks for and she visits people who can't go out because of ill health.
What I like about her is that she's never judging. She is very devout and she believes judging is God's job, not hers. Her job is just to care for other people as well as she can. She has spent relatively little time studying the Bible (because she's always working, she doesn't sit down except in church) but she has very clearly understood the message of the Gospel. She has a wonderful, rock solid, simple faith in Jesus Christ.
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I have really been savoring the responses in this thread and as requests for church commitments and money came in over the Thanksgiving holiday I thought of this thread a few times.
I was raised Catholic (and actually still identify as Catholic - because you can't outrun that programming :)) but as an adult have found my home in the Episcopal Church.
One of the ways my faith has affected Mustachianism in a good way is that the frequent volunteering with communities that have less constantly makes me evaluate what "enough" is for my family.
On the other hand my father's family always tithed and while my grandmother always said they had "enough" my father remembers eating straight mayonnaise as a child because it was all they had in the house until next pay day. It is not a good memory for him. So I don't keep hard and fast rules about charitable giving or "enough."
A (slight) negative on my faith and savings is that I have a strong urge to reactively give and for the last several months I have slightly busted my budget on responsive charitable giving.
In general I'm not big on evangelizing - about faith or money- but in both cases I try to be the best version of myself that I can and I'm always happy to share my motivations if people ask. I think both my spirituality and mustachianism are facets of the desire to just be a good and helpful human who makes the planet a slightly better place.
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As others above, I have really enjoyed reading this thread! My wife and I grew up in the Evangelical Free Church, and have since attended a Southern Baptist, Brethren Fellowship (in India), Assemblies of God, and Harvest Chapel.
Our financial journey included time walking through Dave Ramsey's baby steps to become debt free. At the time I did not feel that Dave's philosophy followed the teachings of Jesus once you were debt free. "Live like no one else so you can LIVE LIKE NO ONE ELSE!" In the same way, I see Mustachianism as a good tool, but towards a different end than Mr. MM. Every decision that I make, including financial ones, needs to be made through the lens of my faith. I believe that 'money' below could be replaced with 'not spending money'.
1 Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
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And I struggle with things like, for instance, how to appropriately tithe on the increase that comes to my tax-advantaged accounts, because that's important.
I've struggled with this somewhat too. Currently I tithe based on gross income minus contributions to defined benefit plans with the intention to tithe proceeds from defined benefit plans as they come. Previously I tithed on gross income. When I made the change, I did not attempt to adjust for the tithes I had previously paid on contributions to defined benefit plans and do not intend to adjust for them later. I still tithe earnings that are contributed to defined contribution plans as I figure it is easier in such plans to track what was put in over the years.
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Some food for thought from someone whom I daresay knows more about the topic than anyone posting on this board (if anyone here has translated the New Testament, I apologize for my assumptions).
https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/christs-rabble
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/opinion/sunday/christianity-communism.html
Thanks for posting these. This is the sort of thing that troubles me. "Sell all your possessions and give your money to the poor" - oh yeah, but, like, Jesus didn't mean ALL your possessions...
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Some food for thought from someone whom I daresay knows more about the topic than anyone posting on this board (if anyone here has translated the New Testament, I apologize for my assumptions).
https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/christs-rabble
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/opinion/sunday/christianity-communism.html
Thanks for posting these. This is the sort of thing that troubles me. "Sell all your possessions and give your money to the poor" - oh yeah, but, like, Jesus didn't mean ALL your possessions...
Jesus also said you should cut off your right hand and gouge out your eye if these cause you to sin. And he said you must hate your family to follow him. Yet early Christians didn't go around lopping off their hands or poking out their eyes, and there's no indication they initiated cutting of ties with family. These are widely understood as hyperbole. Yet many Christians have had to endure such things to follow Christ. The early church was heavily persecuted and gouging out eyes was a common form of torture for followers of The Way. Some of the early church fathers at the Councils of Nicea had been blinded and mutilated for their faith. Other believers have had to accept that their families would disown and/or disinherit them for following Christ. Many followers have given up everything to follow Jesus. So is this a command to proactively give up everything, or is Jesus saying we need to worship God first even if that means giving up everything, including potentially our very life?
As for the story of the rich young man: Although I'm not an expert in Biblical Greek there are great tools/resources for exploring the original text. Mr Hart's interpretation of "Who then can be saved?" as "Then can any [of them, the rich] be saved?" I disagree with. From what I can tell the most straightforward translation seems to be the former (and many other experts agree). Putting this version in context further favors "who then can be saved", because it says that the disciples were astonished at what Jesus said. Why were the disciples astonished? At that time it was widely believed that the rich had found favor with God (or the gods for the pagans) and ritual sacrifices in first century Judaism (the religious context of the story) were expensive. If it's difficult for the rich, who were seen as being more righteous and more able to fulfill the requirements of the Law, to enter the "kingdom of God" (BTW - this doesn't simply mean "going to heaven" - see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy2AQlK6C5k) then what hope does anyone have? Jesus was flipping the established social order on its head.
It's true that early believers lived communally, but there's no indication that this is a primary doctrine of Christian theology. It's a great counterpoint to Christians who insist that communism is somehow "unchristian," but there's no indication in scripture that this is how believers are necessarily expected to live. I do think it very strongly suggests that local churches are to love and care for one another, which includes sharing possessions/finances as needed. I don't think this means giving financial support to a member so they can keep paying for cable, but this does make a case for frugal living so that you have the ability to help others in real need. Again, I think this is all rooted in the concept of stewardship, that we are managers of life and possessions rather than owners. We need money to live, but it is not primarily for our benefit. If our goal for FIRE is to live a life of luxury and comfort, that's at odds with scripture. However, a FIRE with the goal to be free of wage slavery to be able to better serve others...I don't see any problem with that.
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Wow, some really great responses in this thread. I feel like a lot of you have beautifully articulated things I have been contemplating awhile. Thank you.
I'm unsure how religious to consider myself -- I grew up in the South, went to nondenominational megachurch for a few years in high school and the start of college, loved so much of the Bible and analyzing it, got in trouble for thinking/doubting/questioning, and consequently became very disillusioned with organized religion. But I can imagine, had my church been much different, that I would have stayed, and so much of scripture still shapes my thinking.
For me, I see an intersection of Christianity and minimalism and Mustachianism. I see all of these movements as encouraging us to be intentional and deliberate in how we spend our time and money and attention. How we invest our time and money is the ultimate reflection of what we prioritize. Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. I also see them all as celebrating counterculture and encouraging us to make radical, uncomfortable, unpopular choices. So I donate to Against Malaria Foundation and Give Directly, probably about 5% of my salary now, but I'd like to increase that as I get older. I try to opt out of consumerism. I try to be politically active. I spend time on art and writing, and with friends and family. And I try to eliminate a lot of cultural stuff from my life -- television, eating meat, gender expectations, buying stuff, having clutter, cars, alcohol, etc. Not so much because I think all of those are inherently bad, but because I don't truly want them, and I remind myself that I can design my life exactly as I like.
I'm not a particularly good Mustachian or a particularly good Christian, I guess. But I learn from both.
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As others above, I have really enjoyed reading this thread! My wife and I grew up in the Evangelical Free Church, and have since attended a Southern Baptist, Brethren Fellowship (in India), Assemblies of God, and Harvest Chapel.
Our financial journey included time walking through Dave Ramsey's baby steps to become debt free. At the time I did not feel that Dave's philosophy followed the teachings of Jesus once you were debt free. "Live like no one else so you can LIVE LIKE NO ONE ELSE!" In the same way, I see Mustachianism as a good tool, but towards a different end than Mr. MM. Every decision that I make, including financial ones, needs to be made through the lens of my faith. I believe that 'money' below could be replaced with 'not spending money'.
1 Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
Occasional Dave Ramsey listener here: I understand that the book of his that most clearly explains his philosophy about giving and managing wealth is The Legacy Journey. I have heard DR state several times he feels that it is his most overtly Christian book. Are you arguing that the philosophy in that book is contrary to Jesus' teachings?
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I had a thought-provoking conversation the other day that I thought others on this thread might be interested in. It's about Exodus 16, where the Israelites are wandering in the desert and God gives them bread from heaven each morning but tells them only to collect as much as they need for that day. Anything extra turns to worms overnight.
It was a long conversation, but the essentials of the allegorical possibility we were discussing were: each Israelite collects as much as they need for that day and no more. One day for them is like one lifetime for us. God provides as much as we need for our lifetime. Is is the foolish Israelite who gathers more than they need for one day for it will turn to worms overnight, and it is the foolish person who stores up more than they need for their lifetime because they cannot take it with them. But equally, it would be the foolish Israelite who only gathered enough for breakfast, knowing that they would eat lunch and dinner too, and then had to beg off their fellow Israelites come dinner time when God had provided enough for them for all three meals at the beginning of the day. It would be the foolish person who, given the opportunity, did not store up enough from what was provided for them in their prime to support themselves in their old age. So gather up and store up as much as you need for the whole day, but no more.
Not meaning to start a weighty scriptural discussion here, but thought y'all might find it thought-provoking.
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Thank you for sharing. Partly the story of the worms in the manna seems to be about trusting God enough to follow the instructions and not take extra in case He doesn't follow through.
Your thoughts on it remind me of the parable of the rich man with the barns. Apologies if it's already been discussed here; it's been awhile since I read the beginning of the thread. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+12:13-21 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+12:13-21)
Rereading the story of the rich fool, it hits right at the whole MMM FIRE idea. The rich man plans to enjoy living off his savings, but instead he dies suddenly, making the riches pointless. The moral of the story: “This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.”
What do we take away from this? Maybe it's partly about being generous to share what we've been given--with family and friends, with the poor, with the church.
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I'd love to give away a million dollars in my lifetime.
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I feel like most people would look at the example of the Mana, and they would probably say that saving 30%-70% of your income is contrary to that.
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As others above, I have really enjoyed reading this thread! My wife and I grew up in the Evangelical Free Church, and have since attended a Southern Baptist, Brethren Fellowship (in India), Assemblies of God, and Harvest Chapel.
Our financial journey included time walking through Dave Ramsey's baby steps to become debt free. At the time I did not feel that Dave's philosophy followed the teachings of Jesus once you were debt free. "Live like no one else so you can LIVE LIKE NO ONE ELSE!" In the same way, I see Mustachianism as a good tool, but towards a different end than Mr. MM. Every decision that I make, including financial ones, needs to be made through the lens of my faith. I believe that 'money' below could be replaced with 'not spending money'.
1 Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
Occasional Dave Ramsey listener here: I understand that the book of his that most clearly explains his philosophy about giving and managing wealth is The Legacy Journey. I have heard DR state several times he feels that it is his most overtly Christian book. Are you arguing that the philosophy in that book is contrary to Jesus' teachings?
Currently reading The Total Money Makeover for perspective on his philosophy. I came across any interesting quote in the book - this is towards the end during the Wealth Building phase:
"Should anyone wear a 30K watch? Drive a 50K car? Live in a 700K house? Absolutely they should. The problem with people is, they buy those things when they can't afford them."
I'm currently wrestling with this. I question if this attitude of spend-money-because-I-can-afford-it is a biblical, Christ-centered attitude. Surely the money has better utility than a 30k watch. It could help the poor, widows, and orphans just as much. Simply because the spender has more money doesn't mean the utility of it has decreased.
However, this could be a slippery slope of being judgmental and legalistic towards every purchase of excess, no matter how small the excess.
Interested to hear what folks think...
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Roman Catholic here.
Mustachianism in its purest form is incompatible with following Christ. All things should be referred to Christ, not referred to how it affects the stash.
I'm Catholic too, but this makes it sound like some people practice mustachianism like a religion lol.
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An interesting question came up the other day: should Christians prioritise helping the Christian poor over the non-Christian poor? My instincts say no but I'm having a hard time thinking out why. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts y'all might have on this.
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An interesting question came up the other day: should Christians prioritize helping the Christian poor over the non-Christian poor? My instincts say no but I'm having a hard time thinking out why. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts y'all might have on this.
I agree with your instincts. Several reasons:
1) The poor and needy are poor and needy regardless of their religious beliefs. Needs should be met in the order of severity, not based on the recipient's religion.
2) An outside observer could (rightly?) criticize "prioritizing Christians" as trying to buy people's faith / loyalty.
3) In my opinion it would be pretty clearly against Jesus' teaching. See Matthew 5:43-48 for example.
On the other hand, the early Christians did exactly that (see the beginning of Acts 6 for example). So... [shrug] do what you want, it's your money.
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No. Jesus didn't take a survey of someone's religious beliefs before He helped them. Why should we?
People who don't belong to the faith count as neighbors. And He told us to love our neighbors as ourselves. It stands to reason that we should treat non-Christians in the same way we would want to be treated by them.
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An interesting question came up the other day: should Christians prioritise helping the Christian poor over the non-Christian poor? My instincts say no but I'm having a hard time thinking out why. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts y'all might have on this.
Think about all the people Jesus deliberately reached out to help that were at the fringes of society, and not like him and his friends or culture he grew up in: Woman at the well (Samaritan), the Eunach from egypt? (a deviant sexual type for society at the time), Tax collectors, non-jews, the diseased, blind, disabled, young, poor, women with no status, etc.
He was very intentional about lifting up those pushed aside by society because they were "not like" everyone else. His message is one about social justice, really. Aren't we supposed to use him as an example in our lives?
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As others above, I have really enjoyed reading this thread! My wife and I grew up in the Evangelical Free Church, and have since attended a Southern Baptist, Brethren Fellowship (in India), Assemblies of God, and Harvest Chapel.
Our financial journey included time walking through Dave Ramsey's baby steps to become debt free. At the time I did not feel that Dave's philosophy followed the teachings of Jesus once you were debt free. "Live like no one else so you can LIVE LIKE NO ONE ELSE!" In the same way, I see Mustachianism as a good tool, but towards a different end than Mr. MM. Every decision that I make, including financial ones, needs to be made through the lens of my faith. I believe that 'money' below could be replaced with 'not spending money'.
1 Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
Occasional Dave Ramsey listener here: I understand that the book of his that most clearly explains his philosophy about giving and managing wealth is The Legacy Journey. I have heard DR state several times he feels that it is his most overtly Christian book. Are you arguing that the philosophy in that book is contrary to Jesus' teachings?
Currently reading The Total Money Makeover for perspective on his philosophy. I came across any interesting quote in the book - this is towards the end during the Wealth Building phase:
"Should anyone wear a 30K watch? Drive a 50K car? Live in a 700K house? Absolutely they should. The problem with people is, they buy those things when they can't afford them."
I'm currently wrestling with this. I question if this attitude of spend-money-because-I-can-afford-it is a biblical, Christ-centered attitude. Surely the money has better utility than a 30k watch. It could help the poor, widows, and orphans just as much. Simply because the spender has more money doesn't mean the utility of it has decreased.
However, this could be a slippery slope of being judgmental and legalistic towards every purchase of excess, no matter how small the excess.
Interested to hear what folks think...
Actually, you're not in the wrong on this understanding, and are right to raise caution over the teachings of Dave Ramsey in relation to the faith. Honestly, there appears to be some of that in regard to the way even in this thread (he types gently, looking inward to his own heart first)... and I've been grappling with how to handle a response to it that's biblically sound, and discharges my responsibility with others in how and what I understand of the faith in accordance to scripture as well for months. And before anyone brings out the pitchforks and hypocrisy stones against me for what I'm about to post (especially in regard to where we all are), I'd just like to point out that I personally have never discussed my personal finances on this forum. HaShem knows my heart, and He knows our lives far better than anyone else here. It is a process.
Apologies in advance for laser-like scripture pinpointing and notation (and lack of hyperlinks), I normally quote full with plenty of context and notation. However, all of my following pinpoint usages should survive context scrutiny. Be Berean. Don't take my word for it, read for yourself.
Bartleby started to point in the right direction with the two links he provided.
Here's the thing, we need to start by looking at what both Yeshua (Jesus) and Paul taught and did on the Shabbat (Sabbath), to first begin to understand the why. Yeshua healed the sick and the lame on the Shabbat (Matt 12:9-14; John 5:2-12; there's no shortage of these moments). His Talmidim (Apostles) picked to eat on the Shabbat (Matt. 12:1-8, Mark 2:23-28; Luke 6:1-5)...
Before we can begin to understand what Yeshua was doing, we need to understand the real Biblical Shabbat first. To do that, we need to go to the Ten Commandments (Ex. 20:1-17, Deut. 5:4-21) in order of what is declared, and Isaiah (Isaiah 58:13-14). Once we set aside all gods between ourselves and HaShem (His NAME (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton)), we do away with idolatry in our lives so as not to provoke Him to jealousy, we respect and do not take His name in vain and respect it... and we get to the longest and most verbose commandment of the lot, even longer than the warning on idolatry. We are to respect the Shabbat and keep it Kadosh (Holy) and set apart from the rest of the week, and not pursue personal (read: self-interested) labors and works. Full Stop. Zero exceptions. There's no scripture that changes this observance or understanding. Ever. Yeshua only fulfilled Torah (the Law), not done away with it, as it (Torah) will not pass away until Heaven and the Earth pass away (Matt 5:18, 19:17; Luke 16:17), and we're still here!
Shabbat observance is so important in the Ten Commandments, that the only thing ranking above it is commandments detailing our direct relationship with HaShem, and even then, the most words used in the whole thing were used to drive this point home. It even ranked more important than honoring parents, not killing, not stealing, not giving false witness, and not coveting. As we go through the list, it's clearly a blueprint to grow in our relationship with our maker, in order of importance and purpose. All flows from the previous. And we're talking Biblical Shabbat here, sunset to sunset on the seventh day, Saturday. No midnight to midnight Saturday or Sunday nonsense. These are not the Shabbat, only the Shabbat is the Shabbat.
Now, what was Yeshua doing on the Shabbat? He was serving and caring for the people through His "work".
Who else "worked" for the people on the Shabbat, and every other day of the week? The Levitical Priesthood.
What did Paul mean by not regarding specific days of the week as the Shabbat? That we are to "work" selflessly through serving and caring for the people all the time, not just the Sabbath day, but every day (Col. 2:16-17; Gal. 4:9-11). Paul was very pro-Torah, and the entirety of Romans is a midrash (an extended teaching) on the true value and purpose of Torah for the Gentile believer within the context of Love the LORD your GOD with all your heart, soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself (Matt. 22:34-40).
Why did Yeshua do all this "work and healing" on the Shabbat? Because He is our High Priest, and the Priesthood labors not for themselves on the Shabbat (or any day), but for the people (Num. 8:14-19).
Why did Paul teach this? Because we as followers of Messiah are called to be a Priesthood ourselves under Yeshua, our High Priest (Ex. 19:4-6; 1 Pet. 2:9-10; Rev. 1:4-7).
Realistically? This means that the followers of Messiah Yeshua, when spiritually mature and full of the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit), are effectively adopted into the Levitical Priesthood - to profess the Good News, to teach, to minister, to serve. After all, do you not know that your body is a Temple (1 Cor. 6:18-20)?
Now, let's turn our attention to the inheritance of the Levites: Deut. 10:8-9, 12:12, 14:27,29, 18:1,2; Josh. 13:14,33, 18:7, 21:3 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+10%3A8-9%2C+12%3A12%2C+14%3A27-29%2C+18%3A1-2%3B+Joshua+13%3A14%2C33%2C+18%3A7%2C+21%3A3&version=NASB)
The Levitical priests, the whole tribe of Levi, shall have no portion or inheritance with Israel; they shall eat the Lord’s offerings by fire and His portion. They shall have no inheritance among their countrymen; the LORD is their inheritance, as He promised them.
Matthew 19:16-30; Luke 12:13-34 (NASB):And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.”
[...]
Someone in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the family inheritance with me.” But He said to him, “Man, who appointed Me a judge or arbitrator over you?” Then He said to them, “Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed; for not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions.” And He told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man was very productive. And he began reasoning to himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no place to store my crops?’ Then he said, ‘This is what I will do: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry.”’ But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?’ So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”
And He said to His disciples, “For this reason I say to you, do not worry about your life, as to what you will eat; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap; they have no storeroom nor barn, and yet God feeds them; how much more valuable you are than the birds! And which of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life’s span? If then you cannot do even a very little thing, why do you worry about other matters? Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; but I tell you, not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass in the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, how much more will He clothe you? You men of little faith! And do not seek what you will eat and what you will drink, and do not keep worrying. For all these things the nations of the world eagerly seek; but your Father knows that you need these things. But seek His kingdom, and these things will be added to you. Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.
“Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”
I won't bother directly quoting all of Hebrews 13 as well, but I will reference it:
Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” So we can confidently say, “The Lord is my helper; I will not fear; what can man do to me?” [...] Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.
With this, my hands are clean of your blood. (Ezek 31:1-20; Acts 20:26)
To those in this thread who do not know Messiah, know that those who truly follow Yeshua do not resemble or chase after any of the things of the world that only lead to grief, suffering and death. There is a good way, and that way doesn't resemble man-made structures of authority and power. Yeshua came to free us from the yoke of the world's slavery, and restore us to a loving relationship with our Creator.
To those in this thread who follow Messiah and are still enslaved in debt. Pray, work diligently, trust, and serve your fellow to the best of your ability. Prepare for what is to come with His ministry and remember that we are still called to act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with our GOD. Know you are not alone, as I too am still serving as a bondservant in Messiah. Have faith, and stay the path.
To those in this thread who profess the faith, claim Messiah Yeshua - Jesus Christ as their Redeemer, LORD and Savior, and either hold no debt and as such do not serve as a slave, or have sufficient assets to pay off all your debt today?
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve GOD and mammon.
This very night, your soul is required of you. I want to uplift and encourage each and every one of you to answer that call, repent, and reveal who your heart truly belongs to and store your riches where they cannot be destroyed.
Now go read Acts 2:14-47 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2%3A14-47&version=NASB).
Shalom, shalom.
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There is a pretty substantial overlap between (true) Christian values and Mustachianism. I just went on a Catholic retreat this weekend and the retreat leaders mentioned the following points:
We should fast (reduced food, especially eating out, no alcohol) during Lent.
We should avoid consumerism and not buy anything we don't need.
We should go through our house and donate things we don't use frequently but are still in good working order.
Nothing wrong with making money but shouldn't pursue it if it takes you away from your family.
If you have a lot of money you should be helping others with it.
Money is not evil but love of money is the root of evil.
Extra money and time from living simply should be spent on connecting with God, spending time with family, helping your community.
Seems like at least some priests are secret money mustache fans. :)
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I think Daley's quote from Hebrews 13 (the message of which pops up many times) is the key to answering Dave Ramsey's question with a big fat NO. "The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil", and I cannot see how a £30k watch or £50k car* can be anything other than greed and vanity. You're right that it's hard to draw an exact boundary between hair shirts and unreasonable luxuries, but many "small luxuries" exist that promote good values: buying a coffee with a friend to build community, spending more on good food to promote good farming. Let's not get bogged down in the details. But somewhere there is a line above which it is definitely unreasonable, and a £30k watch is certainly it.
*My parents live in a £1 million house...but it's in a London suburb so it's just a fairly nice, largeish terraced house and is really not egregiously fancy. Property prices be crazy.
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The Ramsey quote just strikes me as prosperity gospel nastiness.
No longer a practicing Christian but since it was so much a part of my early formative years I find this discussion super interesting. The main thing I struggle with currently is whether to give to charity at our current financial position or focus everything on getting our financial house in complete order as fast as possible. (As if we don’t still waste money, which is we totally do.)
@Daley very interesting post, makes my mental image of you after years on the forum that much more interesting!
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Does anyone follow Radical Personal Finance? I am fascinated by Joshua Sheats' increasing inclusion of Biblical themes in the shows, even though he knows it may decrease listenership. I think that's brave and so is this thread. I guess I'd call myself a lapsed Christian at this point, but his recent show on the practical aspects of charitable giving helped me.
Someone upthread mentioned Mustachianism "religion". I don't think that's too far off for some people looking for a life-framework substitute for religion. There are many forum posts asking if this or that behavior conforms to Mustachianism.
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Does anyone follow Radical Personal Finance? I am fascinated by Joshua Sheats' increasing inclusion of Biblical themes in the shows, even though he knows it may decrease listenership. I think that's brave and so is this thread. I guess I'd call myself a lapsed Christian at this point, but his recent show on the practical aspects of charitable giving helped me.
Someone upthread mentioned Mustachianism "religion". I don't think that's too far off for some people looking for a life-framework substitute for religion. There are many forum posts asking if this or that behavior conforms to Mustachianism.
I’ve listened his show in the past but not for some time, for a while I didn’t have time to listen to many podcasts but I’m starting to catch back up lately, might add his show in again.
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An interesting question came up the other day: should Christians prioritise helping the Christian poor over the non-Christian poor?
Absolutely. If there's any left over after helping the Christian poor, help non-CHristians (Gal 6:10). Too many charities become an end to themselves (jobs for charity workers, enabling non-work) rather than a charity. My mother worked in a bread line for the homeless for a long time and finally gave up realizing the homeless do not want to work. In the Christian church, if you don't work, you don't eat (2 THess 3:10)
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OP: Doesnt affect it at all
They are orthogonal.
What does your faith have to do with monetary affairs?
I completely disagree with this viewpoint.
My faith has everything to do with how I manage my money. That is because everything we have is God's, not ours, and He expects us to be good stewards of anything we have. He gave mankind dominion over the earth and everything on it, and we are to handle it as He would have, i.e. constantly growing in Christlikeness in everything, including our money.
Where I have found Mustachianism oppose my faith is when things such as tithing are questioned in case studies. Giving to God firstfruits as a way of worship is core to my faith. Acts 1:8 dicates the order of giving of our treasure and talents. Jerusalem first, Judea and Samaria next and the uttermost parts of the world last. This is why I do not give a lot to the orphans in Africa. My focus is to be on my local communities needs first and in greater quantity than my focus on others. If each grouping of the body of Christ follows that basic principle we take care of all the needs. In setting my budget I also do not spend on things that run contrary to my faith. I have no line for the porn account, directly or buried in my entertainment budget, for example.
The whole idea of how faith could not be seen to impact monetary affairs is mind boggling to me. Where our treasure lies our heart lies also.
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The main thing I struggle with currently is whether to give to charity at our current financial position or focus everything on getting our financial house in complete order as fast as possible.
Harbinger,
I struggled with that too. Ultimately, I decided to give to various charities regardless of my financial position. My thought was that at the very moment I was trying to decide what to do there were people out there just hoping to find their next meal or a warm place to sleep. All the while, the biggest decision I had going was related to paying off debt and financial independence. Seemed like a no brainer to me. With that said, no judgement for those who have decided otherwise.
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I haven't read this whole thread so someone else may have said this, but aren't the Proverbs of Solomon essentially Mustachianism.txt?
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An interesting question came up the other day: should Christians prioritise helping the Christian poor over the non-Christian poor? My instincts say no but I'm having a hard time thinking out why. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts y'all might have on this.
I can see times when it would be appropriate to reserve help for needy Christians. I know that my church has some resources that are normally reserved for helping needy members of the church and other resources that are offered based on need without respect to faith. I think there is some obligation to help the poor among us before seeking out others in need. This would be most appropriate where Christians are a minority (as was the case in the early church, and still is in some parts of the world). As individuals in communities where Christianity is prominent, I think most of us should make efforts to help the needy without respect to religion.
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Lutheran here. I think the guidance we have is from St. Paul:
“So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.” Galatians 6:10
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An interesting question came up the other day: should Christians prioritise helping the Christian poor over the non-Christian poor? My instincts say no but I'm having a hard time thinking out why. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts y'all might have on this.
Think about all the people Jesus deliberately reached out to help that were at the fringes of society, and not like him and his friends or culture he grew up in: Woman at the well (Samaritan), the Eunach from egypt? (a deviant sexual type for society at the time), Tax collectors, non-jews, the diseased, blind, disabled, young, poor, women with no status, etc.
He was very intentional about lifting up those pushed aside by society because they were "not like" everyone else. His message is one about social justice, really. Aren't we supposed to use him as an example in our lives?
^^^ This ^^^
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An interesting question came up the other day: should Christians prioritise helping the Christian poor over the non-Christian poor? My instincts say no but I'm having a hard time thinking out why. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts y'all might have on this.
Think about all the people Jesus deliberately reached out to help that were at the fringes of society, and not like him and his friends or culture he grew up in: Woman at the well (Samaritan), the Eunach from egypt? (a deviant sexual type for society at the time), Tax collectors, non-jews, the diseased, blind, disabled, young, poor, women with no status, etc.
He was very intentional about lifting up those pushed aside by society because they were "not like" everyone else. His message is one about social justice, really. Aren't we supposed to use him as an example in our lives?
^^^ This ^^^
+1
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We are part of the Christian church, and I feel like our relationship with God simply gives us clearer goals and motivations for Mustachianism.
Obviously, 'hoarding' in the sense of greed is wrong, but saving for the sake of freedom can be right, if the freedom includes the freedom to be generous, serve others, minister, and give of yourself.
Part of my desire for FIRE is not neccesarily to fully retire early, its simply so that we have the flexibility to do things like move, take trips, take on poorer paid jobs, write, teach, and minister to whomever and wherever we feel led, regardless of cost/circumstance. We also love giving to worthy ministries and causes, and we can choose to care for those less fortunate and those that are part of our church family, because we are wiser than many with our money.
Of anyone, a mustachian with a strong faith background will likely find it easier to avoid being 'taken over' by the money saving aspect, because one is consistently reminded of the purpose and motivations of life behind it...living both joyfully (as God intended) and generously (as God intended). Contentment is a huge factor, and knowing what true wealth is too. Faith shouldn't ever be annoying, boring, or stuffy....faith is persistence, zeal, risk-taking, and action....which are often things associated with the Mustachian way!
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Just to answer the question about whether Christians should help the Christian poor more than the non-Christian poor: That's just silly. We don't help people because THEY are Christian. We help people because WE are Christian.
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Just to answer the question about whether Christians should help the Christian poor more than the non-Christian poor: That's just silly. We don't help people because THEY are Christian. We help people because WE are Christian.
Thank you - I think this is what I was failing to find the words for.
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Lutheran here. I think the guidance we have is from St. Paul:
“So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.” Galatians 6:10
This. What better witness is there than to see that the church family truly treats each other like a family....not to the exclusion of others, but making sure that the family of God is not suffering first is good and healthy. An excellent image and example of God's intention for all of mankind to be doing for their 'tribe'.
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Hi guys 👋🏻 I’ve been wondering about following Jesus and subscribing to Mustachianism (and whether it’s possible to do both). I went so far as to write an article about it.
MOD EDIT: Link Removed.
Along the way, I stumbled across this thread. Your insights were very helpful. If you end up reading the article, I’d love your feedback. I’m still learning :)
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blah blah <link to my blog>
Hey @mrjoshrobertson, I see you're new here. You should know that the forum rules specifically prohibit (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/forum-rules/) linking to your own blog anywhere except your signature line (rule #5, also see the edit clarifying it below the triangle). Also the fact that self-promotion is your first post will leave a bad taste in people's mouth.
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Hi guys 👋🏻 I’ve been wondering about following Jesus and subscribing to Mustachianism (and whether it’s possible to do both). I went so far as to write an article about it.
MOD EDIT: Link Removed.
Along the way, I stumbled across this thread. Your insights were very helpful. If you end up reading the article, I’d love your feedback. I’m still learning :)
Thanks for sharing. Looks like you've done a fairly comprehensive analysis of interactions of Mustachianism and faith. I think a primary risk of Mustachianism is the temptation to reduce giving to increase savings (often justifying that they are back-loading (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/spouse-wants-to-tithe/msg2438378/#msg2438378) their giving - postponing giving until FI or death). Another risk is seeking FIRE for selfish reasons rather than in order to give more freely of your time.
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Congratulations on making it to this point in your journey.
If anything, let your Christianity guide you to FIRE. when you FIRE, you will be free to give of your time and money.
Should you give? Of course. Giving is good for you. Should you tithe? Not as a matter of salvation, and maybe not necessarily to a church. The word "tithe" merely means 1/10. You part with 1/10 of your income. But the church doesn't deserve it; they just have the opportunity to do good things...things you could also do if you knew who needed it.
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... Should you tithe? Not as a matter of salvation, and maybe not necessarily to a church. The word "tithe" merely means 1/10. You part with 1/10 of your income. But the church doesn't deserve it; they just have the opportunity to do good things...things you could also do if you knew who needed it.
This seems a little strange to me, and I wonder what you mean exactly. Presumably if you were tithing to a church, it would be a church you are part of. Not a 'they' but a 'we'...
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... Should you tithe? Not as a matter of salvation, and maybe not necessarily to a church. The word "tithe" merely means 1/10. You part with 1/10 of your income. But the church doesn't deserve it; they just have the opportunity to do good things...things you could also do if you knew who needed it.
This seems a little strange to me, and I wonder what you mean exactly. Presumably if you were tithing to a church, it would be a church you are part of. Not a 'they' but a 'we'...
Love your point here. While I go to a church, I am not a member of one, and so am a visitor.
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Although a Christian, we do not restrict our giving to our church. We aim roughly for a 50/50 split.
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... Should you tithe? Not as a matter of salvation, and maybe not necessarily to a church. The word "tithe" merely means 1/10. You part with 1/10 of your income. But the church doesn't deserve it; they just have the opportunity to do good things...things you could also do if you knew who needed it.
This seems a little strange to me, and I wonder what you mean exactly. Presumably if you were tithing to a church, it would be a church you are part of. Not a 'they' but a 'we'...
Love your point here. While I go to a church, I am not a member of one, and so am a visitor.
I hope you find a church where you can be home. CS Lewis said something about it being good to be in the hallway of Christianity but that the warmth and fellowship was in the rooms. Or something like that. It sounded better the way he said it. . . . Here it is (https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/8146709-the-hall-is-a-place-to-wait-in-a-place).
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I'd just like to remind everyone picking the thread back up that the "church" is not a building, structure, or organization. It is supposed to be the very living body of believers themselves.
If your idea and definition of what defines the church falls outside this scope of understanding, you might be missing the mark.
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I'd just like to remind everyone picking the thread back up that the "church" is not a building, structure, or organization. It is supposed to be the very living body of believers themselves.
If your idea and definition of what defines the church falls outside this scope of understanding, you might be missing the mark.
Well, it's all of the above. The visible church is made up of living, breathing human beings who need buildings and structures and organisation just as part of life. We need buildings to meet in and worship in, though sure, we could do without buildings for a time if we had to. We need structure and organisation to pass on the faith and to keep ourselves from bickering or getting too far off in what we believe. Buildings take some money to keep up, and people who dedicate their lives to sharing the faith and supporting others in the church deserve support for food, shelter, clothing, and so forth. If the church is going to give to the poor and so forth, then that money has to come from somewhere, too. If we are the church, then we need to take care of our community needs, not just our individual ones.
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But how do you find a church 'home'? I visit churches every now and then but they never feel like a home. I would like to be a part of a community but it seems every church is dogmatic and legalistic in its own way.
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I am an Episcopalian- what some would consider a liberal branch of Christianity. Worship tends to be formal and structured- which I like- but generally theology is liberal. It’s an important part of my life.
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But how do you find a church 'home'? I visit churches every now and then but they never feel like a home. I would like to be a part of a community but it seems every church is dogmatic and legalistic in its own way.
Finding a good congregation to call home is certainly difficult unfortunately, and I would guess even more so in a large one. Of course, as your faith journey and family situation changes you may find a congregation that had been "good" at the time may not be so much anymore, but nothing says you need to stay either. If they refuse to grow in their faith as you have, perhaps you are called elsewhere or maybe you are the one needed to assist in their growth. I regularly attend 2 congregations. The tiny inner-city one definitely feels more like family. Even though the other is just 2 miles away, it is a totally different neighborhood and much larger and we have been there over 25 years.
To some degree Christians must be dogmatic because they do need to follow Scripture. Of course, Scripture has been interpreted by some in wildly different ways, but it really boils down to loving God and loving others as someone once said. :)
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I save a lot of money on beverages since I only drink water and wine. Seriously.
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I drink only what Jesus drank -- water and wine.
I save a lot of money on beverages since I only drink water and wine. Seriously.
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Non-denominational here.
I think I may be echoing some here when I say that the principals espoused by MMM and Christianity can indeed be compatible if they're not taken to their extremes. We shouldn't be worshiping our 'staches. We're called to be good stewards of that which is given to us. The most valuable of assets is our time. It's that which we trade for money. God has asked us to give of him our time and our resources. Being able to spend more time doing what He's asked of us is key. Being FI and retired (no RE for me, missed that train) means more time to spend in the above.
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But how do you find a church 'home'? I visit churches every now and then but they never feel like a home. I would like to be a part of a community but it seems every church is dogmatic and legalistic in its own way.
If you're going to define any church that has rules and requirements as "dogmatic and legalistic," you're unlikely to find anything of interest beyond the Unitarians, who, depending on the congregation, believe everything at once (including all the mutually exclusive things). I don't consider that a "church" so much as a "faintly spiritual, or not if you don't believe any of that, Sunday social club."
When I'm looking for a church (which is fairly rare - we don't move that often), I look for two things:
- Sermons that are, in majority, preaching through books of the Bible, and
- Mid-week small groups/lifegroups/community groups/(whatever they call that particular form of ~10-15 person midweek gathering).
This will generally get you in the vicinity of a Biblically solid church with good community (typically they're Baptist affiliated, even if not officially Baptists), though I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for or not.
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An interesting question came up the other day: should Christians prioritise helping the Christian poor over the non-Christian poor? My instincts say no but I'm having a hard time thinking out why. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts y'all might have on this.
I can see times when it would be appropriate to reserve help for needy Christians. I know that my church has some resources that are normally reserved for helping needy members of the church and other resources that are offered based on need without respect to faith. I think there is some obligation to help the poor among us before seeking out others in need. This would be most appropriate where Christians are a minority (as was the case in the early church, and still is in some parts of the world). As individuals in communities where Christianity is prominent, I think most of us should make efforts to help the needy without respect to religion.
Not attempting to correct you, but I am. As a new hardcore, spoken to by Jesus himself Christian. Jesus cares about everyone equally. The entire message is to not value your "in group" more. Everyone! Slaves obey slave masters. Not because slavery is just. At all. But you are better off acting peaceful to abuse and make the slavers look crappy.
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No. Jesus didn't take a survey of someone's religious beliefs before He helped them. Why should we?
People who don't belong to the faith count as neighbors. And He told us to love our neighbors as ourselves. It stands to reason that we should treat non-Christians in the same way we would want to be treated by them.
And... a great way to convert them. Better than war, or oppression. Loving them is a great way to convert them.
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... Should you tithe? Not as a matter of salvation, and maybe not necessarily to a church. The word "tithe" merely means 1/10. You part with 1/10 of your income. But the church doesn't deserve it; they just have the opportunity to do good things...things you could also do if you knew who needed it.
This seems a little strange to me, and I wonder what you mean exactly. Presumably if you were tithing to a church, it would be a church you are part of. Not a 'they' but a 'we'...
Love your point here. While I go to a church, I am not a member of one, and so am a visitor.
I feel like all humans are with Jesus. They don't have to believe it. He loves all.
Heaven is for the truly good. But virtually no one is. Jesus let's us be humans and not "perfect". But salvation can be for all. Religion is both to keep the bad in line, and drive good to deeper faith.
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But how do you find a church 'home'? I visit churches every now and then but they never feel like a home. I would like to be a part of a community but it seems every church is dogmatic and legalistic in its own way.
I've been thinking a lot about this since you posted it.
In the long term, I think it makes sense to pray through the question, read through the Bible, read theology, and talk to people to really come to a better understanding of your faith and where you need to be.
In the short term, if you've tried all the local options and can't decide, I would suggest going to the very closest one geographically, especially if the time is convenient. That way, you have a better chance of going regularly, and you will meet neighbours. Community is a benefit of going to church on Sunday, but the first purpose is worship.
What is home? My little flat is home, not because it's the best place in my town but because it's the place where I live and spend time. I feel comfortable there because it's familiar. My friends and family may not be the best people on earth, but they are people that I know and have spent time with and have grown to love and be comfortable with. If no ready-made community is presented to you in an obvious way, maybe you can be part of building community within the place that is given to you.
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We live in the middle of nowhere and had a child bullied badly at our local church. Another church was 20 miles away, so we "homeschooled" our children's Sunday school. Later, they all attended a Catholic College, where they took several religion classes.(They did well in those classes with what they learned from their "homeschooled" Sunday school.) They all converted to Catholicism.
We don't tithe, as we don't go to a specific church. Instead, we donate to charities and help others who need help.
I HIGHLY recommend The Bible Project Podcasts. My Strange Bible is good too. Gotta love Tim Mackie http://www.timmackie.com/about-tim
https://thebibleproject.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjwkenqBRBgEiwA-bZVtstZ9EPQmnvfHbf0p9Riz8bgSfvZvgT0PTDE4-58iouP2nQvfq8CWBoC-CIQAvD_BwE
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I try my best to live by Proverbs 31: 10-31...esp. verses 16,20,27
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Charity is something I really struggle with. I struggle with slowing down our FIRE journey, especially since we came in to Mustachianism in poor financial health, thinking that in achieving our baseline goals sooner and then doing charitable work our total lifetime charity will be highest. But maybe that's my natural tight-fistedness speaking.
I think that's just a different approach, not necessarily a better or worse option. I don't believe in a one-size-fits-all approach. Which is also why I'm not really a supporter of tithing. Of course it's a good thing to make it a habit to support charity, but I have also met people who seem to think they can 'buy off' their sins by giving 10% to church.
One of the more important men in the (Catholic) church I grew up in was a guy like that. He owned a local business that employed a lot of people, he had plenty of money and gave very generously to the church. His wife and kids were very active in the church community, they seemed to be decent enough people, but he was a pretty nasty guy. He was arrogant, creepy around women, partied heavily when away on business trips. Giving to charity is a good habit, but for some people tithing is a really easy thing to do and it kind of justifies everything else for them. I believe that you should try to be charitable every day of your life, not just on payday when you write the check to your church.
One of the main reasons why I grew disenchanted with the Catholic church is because I saw in my local parish how much money the church needed to spend on itself, rather than on charity, and that they needed it so desperately they were willing to put up with the behaviour of nasty guys like that local rich guy.
The Mafia gave a lot of money to the Catholic Church when John Paul was Pope. I am not Catholic, but found this very troubling. I am sure the Church justified it by saying all the good they could do with tens of millions of Mafia dollars, but the money was earned through human misery. Drugs, prostitution, loan sharking, who knows what else. The Mafia boss who donated the money no doubt thought of it as a modern day Papal Indulgence.
I do not think Jesus would have taken their money.
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But how do you find a church 'home'? I visit churches every now and then but they never feel like a home. I would like to be a part of a community but it seems every church is dogmatic and legalistic in its own way.
I really appreciated my Unitarian Universalist church and their fellowship and concern for others.
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But how do you find a church 'home'? I visit churches every now and then but they never feel like a home. I would like to be a part of a community but it seems every church is dogmatic and legalistic in its own way.
I really appreciated my Unitarian Universalist church and their fellowship and concern for others.
An Anecdote!
I'm culturally Catholic - large families, and 12 years of parochial school - but I'm not specifically a practicing Catholic myself, though I like attending church. I gave the local UU church a try, because it was closest to my house and I figured the message of humanitarianism was something I could jive with. I enjoyed it, right up until the moment the Pastor, a pagan, said we were going to celebrate spring by standing up and blessing the four directions.
Nope.
Nope, nope, nope.
All the hair rose up on my arms, and I booked it from the pew, never to return. Guess I'm a little more One God, And Shit Is He Jealous, than I ever realized. ;)
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But how do you find a church 'home'? I visit churches every now and then but they never feel like a home. I would like to be a part of a community but it seems every church is dogmatic and legalistic in its own way.
I see you are in Europe so perhaps some limited value here but you may want to check out https://archmin.org/. Very focused group on solid bible teaching (expository preaching going through one book of the Bible at a time) at most of these churches. If you are looking for solid foundations, any of these places are a great starting point. We belong to one of these churches, and from the outside they may be legalistic, but they are following the scriptures for decisions. I have been in over a dozen churches in my life. Never anything as exciting and supportive as this, where 97% of our congregation is involved in discipleship (and we have nearly 1,000 members so 97% is a lot of people). All the things most people get turned away by are not present and I've visited a couple other churches on the site when I travel (I use this site to find them for that purpose) and found the goal of the organization to be accurate that they are like minded churches.
Again, this is more useful for US based folks with your question, but thought I'd share.
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@Imma Have you considered the Quakers? They believe in plain living and individual contribution.
I agree with others though that it doesn't sound like you really want a church. All churches have rules. Whether they declare them up front or not, whether they say they are straight from the Bible, handed down from traditional authority, or from divine inspiration. A church is more than a community. It can certainly help with feeling lonely but it's not just a social group.
We go to two churches - one we really like but is an hour away, and one that's ten minutes walk when we can't manage the travel. The first one is gorgeous and has beautiful music and is really welcoming. The second is kind of dreary and not very holy but does the job.
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But how do you find a church 'home'? I visit churches every now and then but they never feel like a home. I would like to be a part of a community but it seems every church is dogmatic and legalistic in its own way.
Hey Episcopal(Anglican) priest here,
A major component of Christian community is how it helps us grow toward holiness despite it rarely ever really being exactly the community we would choose for ourselves. This is why the founder of Western Monasticism, St. Benedict, taught that stability of life was such an important component of the monastic way of life. Otherwise the monks may find themselves drifting from community to community as soon as things start to get challenging.
Bonhoeffer, a German Lutheran theologian who was killed in a concentration camp for his resistance of the Nazis warns fellow Christians about being too attached to our ideal of community to the detriment of the actual community that is before us.
Those who love their dream of a Christian community more than they love the Christian community itself become destroyers of that Christian community even though their personal intentions may be ever so honest, earnest, and sacrificial.
So what should you do to find the community to join? My suggestion is that you keep in mind that Christian community is fundamentally a gift from God and so pray to God for discernment in finding where he wants you to be and let go of your need to find the perfect community.
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Hey Episcopal(Anglican) priest here,
Hey @VexedCoffee, I don't have much to say in response to your actual post but I wanted to thank you for "outing yourself" as a priest. I am not Episcopalian, but I have a deep and abiding respect for the intellectualism that I have observed in Episcopals. N.T. Write is one of my favorite theological writers. I'm sorry your plans of being a geologist didn't work out, but hopefully you're on to bigger and better things now.
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I am Christian and member of the Church of Sweden, a Lutheran church. I am not sure if I identify as a "Lutheran" though, maybe, maybe not so I prefer Christian over that because I know I am a Christian. I was also confirmed as an adult, at age 36, and the experience was very strong and meaningful to me. I am a church warden (used to be very prestigious but is now more being a host/helper to the priest at service) and I regularly go to church. I pray daily and religion and theology is important to me. I give regularly and generously to the church and other organizations that help people and this is important to me so it is part of my necessary spending. I don't keep exact percentages though so I don't say I tithe because I don't know the exact numbers and there are probably years I have given less and others where I have given more. I do also give direct support to people sometimes which count in the giving category but I am not sure if that constitutes tithing.
I agree with the comments about mustachianism taken to an extreme and that not being compatible with Christianity because to me that does sometimes seem like greed and failing to be generous. On the other hand, frugality, being appreciative of the things you have rather than the things you don't have, fixing stuff, giving away stuff you don't need etc. seems to connect well with Christianity. I also don't think that saving and building a working financial situation is against Christianity but I do see that this can become very focused on yourself and your family rather than your brothers and sisters in the world at large.
As to giving to non-Christians. When it comes to basic needs I would never consider that person's religion, we all need food, shelter, clothes etc and I would not think it was Christian to do anything else. That does not mean I think it is wrong to support things that are relevant mostly to Christians. For example, when the roof of the Church of my congregation's "friendship-congregation" in Tanzania was destroyed we took collections for them to be able to fix the roof fast which would be something that would be mostly relevant for the Christians of that village. I see no fault in that. Similarly, my church supports colleges for priests and deacons in other countries and other more specific Christian needs but also schools, adult education, work projects, health care etc that is for everyone and often has an explicit statement to help people regardless of their religion. God made every human and basic needs need to be met regardless of religion. I also think that we should not show hostility towards people of another faith and if they are interested in Christianity we should try to help them understand it and if they wish to convert help them with that. Very aggressive conversion attempts seem to be very counterproductive and border on hostility.
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Thanks everyone for your kind replies! And @shelivesthedream funny you mentioned Quakers. They are not active in my country but I was recently in your country in an area where they are very active and visible and I was really inspired by them.
In my area most churches are Catholic, I was raised Catholic as well. While I attend Mass irregularly and the whole rite resonates with me on a very deep level, I don't agree with the Catholic church on many things from a theological point of view. I don't think I can get over those. There are protestant churches as well, but historically the Netherlands is very strictly Calvinist and I also don't think I could ever become a full member of a Calvinist church or a non-denominational protestant church that accepts the Synod of Dordt. That leaves very few options in my country. Arminian is considered an insult in most churches.
I am positive towards one church (Remonstrant) but I'm not sure I'm ready to become a formal member. That's something they don't require bt Another church I'm positive about is the mennonite church (which is nothing like American Old Order mennonites) who actually share a building with the Remonstrant church in my town.
What I mean by legalistic is that many churches seem to have very strict conventions about anything that has to do with outward appearance and lifestyle and I feel deeply uncomfortable with that. If you don't conform completely you can actually be called to appear in front of the Church board, like some sort of trial, for things that I would consider very minor transgressions. It's also not something I'm familiar with from the Catholic church, of course everyone tried to look semi-decent but I can't remember anyone ever being called out for their appearance. I understand churches must have rules and that once you are a member you need to accept those rules, but that's why I'm careful about joining any church. Of course this varies from church to church but I was quite surprised that many non-orthodox churches have very strict written and unwritten rules. I knew that about orthodox churches - a friend of mine actually lives next to an orthodox Calvinist church and is verbally abused about her unnatural hair colour all the time. That's just really very wrong.
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@VexedCoffee, your comment has been useful for me to ponder. Thanks.
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Cool thread, good perspectives here :)
It all started with Dave Ramsey for me, getting out of debt and whatnot, so personal finance has interested me for a very long time. When I found MMM, everything really clicked inside and I realized it all just made so much sense. I had seen all these people living way above their means who really struggled in the recession, and I'm like, "You totally brought this upon yourself...", such a slap in the face to the people in the world who struggle because of things outside of their control.
I realized I wanted the freedom that money can bring, and on my path to FI I learned all the little pockets of waste in my life. Having amassed the stache I have, I have become very aware of just how loaded and financially blessed I've been. It gives me greater incentive to give, I believe, but also to want to help others learn how to handle money because it's so important. It really has the power to change generations. And really it was just a matter of taking what I was earning and wasting significantly less of it. Some people would call that storing up barns of grain, I call it being less stupid, less wasteful, and more strategic :). Besides, with my income, savings rate, and current stache, I could easily seed significant sums of money to others in the event of a major economic downturn. I don't want that to happen, but the realization that I could is very encouraging to me on this journey. I don't believe I've been put in this position to just hoard all my money. Our blessings are for us just as they are also for those around us.
(I could think of several other things to write here, but many have already been said. This is my $0.02 contribution :) )
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Hey @VexedCoffee, I don't have much to say in response to your actual post but I wanted to thank you for "outing yourself" as a priest. I am not Episcopalian, but I have a deep and abiding respect for the intellectualism that I have observed in Episcopals. N.T. Write is one of my favorite theological writers. I'm sorry your plans of being a geologist didn't work out, but hopefully you're on to bigger and better things now.
Haha, it was kind of wild when I looked back at my post history. A lot has changed from the last time I used these forums and as much fun as camping with my geology professors was I've definitely landed exactly where I am meant to be!
@VexedCoffee, your comment has been useful for me to ponder. Thanks.
Thanks!
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There are protestant churches as well, but historically the Netherlands is very strictly Calvinist and I also don't think I could ever become a full member of a Calvinist church or a non-denominational protestant church that accepts the Synod of Dordt. That leaves very few options in my country. Arminian is considered an insult in most churches.
I would lean Arminian as well. It's not all that helpful, but my friend in the Netherlands had this response to your dilemma:
There are very strict and traditional churches in the Netherlands, but also churches who are not so traditional. There are Baptist churches and Evangelical churches. This person has to look in her city what churches there are and figure out what fits for her.
She attends an Evangelical one. She lives in Nijkerk.
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Hi guys 👋🏻 I’ve been wondering about following Jesus and subscribing to Mustachianism (and whether it’s possible to do both). I went so far as to write an article about it.
MOD EDIT: Link Removed.
Along the way, I stumbled across this thread. Your insights were very helpful. If you end up reading the article, I’d love your feedback. I’m still learning :)
Since my first post, I've been getting an error message when I try to log in as mrjoshrobertson, saying I've been banned for life due to spam. One strike, you're out? Hoping the moderators will grant me mercy and not ban this new username or, better yet, un-ban mrjoshrobertson. As a new member of this community, I was unaware of the No Spam rule (never mind that its 5/21/14 clarification says, "If your blog post is relevant to another thread that is ongoing, feel free to add the link, but do not abuse this.").
Happy to see that others continue to think about the topic. Happy Friday everyone!
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I'm not and never have been a moderator, but as a reasonably longtime user of this forum I have seen an awful lot of people create an account, their first post is a link to their blog/book/MLM, and that's it. Even when it's a nicely-written post and not just the link to their mail order Viagra business on its own, it must be hard for the mods to tell the difference between someone who is just a spammer and someone who happens to be first inspired to post by something related to their blog.
Also, there are a lot of bloggers on here! I can understand them wanting to be a bit heavy handed or we'd be nothing but links!
I'm happy to see you back, though, and happy to be reminded of this thread. I have been re-reading it and will post an update of what's changed with me since I started it when I have a moment. I'm astonished all over again at what a helpful and thoughtful discussion it has been!
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I'm not and never have been a moderator, but as a reasonably longtime user of this forum I have seen an awful lot of people create an account, their first post is a link to their blog/book/MLM, and that's it. Even when it's a nicely-written post and not just the link to their mail order Viagra business on its own, it must be hard for the mods to tell the difference between someone who is just a spammer and someone who happens to be first inspired to post by something related to their blog.
Also, there are a lot of bloggers on here! I can understand them wanting to be a bit heavy handed or we'd be nothing but links!
I'm happy to see you back, though, and happy to be reminded of this thread. I have been re-reading it and will post an update of what's changed with me since I started it when I have a moment. I'm astonished all over again at what a helpful and thoughtful discussion it has been!
Thanks for the warm welcome and for providing a bit of context :) Looking forward to hearing what you've been noodling on!
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I'm glad to see this thread brought back up again, too.
The more I think about it, the more compatible I find mustachianism is with Christianity. For example, most Mustachians are aiming for a stache in the $900k-$2million range, and many find $1.2 million to be a gold standard, but definitely still not required. To the spendypants of the world, this may look like hoarding, but when you look at Boglehead types, who often require $2-3 million+, you realize that while mustachians focus on keeping calm and carrying on, other financial literates who don't care about frugality and intelligent living often get stuck in a cycle of fear and paranoia about not having enough money. But there really is no such thing as perfect security. I think if you're a Christian and you think that your money can save you from everything in the world, you are very much missing a key element of your faith. I think there is a lot to be said about taking control of our lives intelligently and trusting God for the things outside of our control. Besides, being content on $4k/month is way less greedy than the way most people live their lives, IMO. Greed would be saying, "I need to make $120k every year for the rest of my life because I need ALL OF THE THINGS!" But there are a lot of nuances here that I'm too lazy to flesh out, too (ie it's okay to keep working, of course)
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But there really is no such thing as perfect security.
I need to be reminded of this all the time!
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Interesting thread. I am a Christian. I occasionally even live up to the name.
I think The basic views of thrift, self sufficiency, and conservation are generally compatible with the faith. Some of the more cult like aspects of Mustachianism are questionable, and there are some folks here who are antagonistic to the faith.
I view this as a secular trend, one that I happen to mostly like, but a trend I don’t expect to last all for all that long.
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I view this as a secular trend, one that I happen to mostly like, but a trend I don’t expect to last all for all that long.
I agree. The FIRE movement is likely a ripple in a long stream of happiness fads. I don't expect it to disappear completely because it has been around a lot longer than this recent crop of bloggers. Don't get me wrong, I like being FIRE and it's been great for getting off the hedonic treadmill and freeing up time/energy to serve more while also plumbing some of the depths of the faith. [A bit obsessed with N.T. Wright at the moment, along with a couple other scholars.] But FIRE is not our Messiah, nor will it fulfill people the way they often expect...it's a means, not an end unto itself. I've come to view FIRE in light of Paul's writings in 1 Corinthians 7:21-23...if you can gain your freedom then do so, but celebrate your freedom with purpose.
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I view this as a secular trend, one that I happen to mostly like, but a trend I don’t expect to last all for all that long.
I agree. The FIRE movement is likely a ripple in a long stream of happiness fads. I don't expect it to disappear completely because it has been around a lot longer than this recent crop of bloggers. Don't get me wrong, I like being FIRE and it's been great for getting off the hedonic treadmill and freeing up time/energy to serve more while also plumbing some of the depths of the faith. [A bit obsessed with N.T. Wright at the moment, along with a couple other scholars.] But FIRE is not our Messiah, nor will it fulfill people the way they often expect...it's a means, not an end unto itself. I've come to view FIRE in light of Paul's writings in 1 Corinthians 7:21-23...if you can gain your freedom then do so, but celebrate your freedom with purpose.
Well said. I hadn't considered that 1 Cor 7 passage as potentially relevant. N.T. Wright is great. I like listening to The Bible Project podcast, and they've had him on a couple times recently.
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I view this as a secular trend, one that I happen to mostly like, but a trend I don’t expect to last all for all that long.
I agree. The FIRE movement is likely a ripple in a long stream of happiness fads. I don't expect it to disappear completely because it has been around a lot longer than this recent crop of bloggers. Don't get me wrong, I like being FIRE and it's been great for getting off the hedonic treadmill and freeing up time/energy to serve more while also plumbing some of the depths of the faith. [A bit obsessed with N.T. Wright at the moment, along with a couple other scholars.] But FIRE is not our Messiah, nor will it fulfill people the way they often expect...it's a means, not an end unto itself. I've come to view FIRE in light of Paul's writings in 1 Corinthians 7:21-23...if you can gain your freedom then do so, but celebrate your freedom with purpose.
Well said. I hadn't considered that 1 Cor 7 passage as potentially relevant. N.T. Wright is great. I like listening to The Bible Project podcast, and they've had him on a couple times recently.
We've been financial supporters of The Bible Project for a couple years. Their videos are great, very well done and packed full of deep insight. But the real treasure is the podcast where hours of discussion is distilled down into a 5 minute video. Their recent word study on the word Gospel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT41M013X3A) is a good example: 4 hours of rich podcast discussion that informs a 4.5 minute video about the meaning of a single word. My Monday morning routine is to bike the kids to school and then return home to enjoy my coffee while listening to the new episode while following along in my Bible study software. I like noting which books and authors Tim Mackie is quoting/reading and add many of these to my reading list. So many great books, but now my problem is that I can't read them fast enough :)
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We've been financial supporters of The Bible Project for a couple years. Their videos are great, very well done and packed full of deep insight. But the real treasure is the podcast where hours of discussion is distilled down into a 5 minute video. Their recent word study on the word Gospel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT41M013X3A) is a good example: 4 hours of rich podcast discussion that informs a 4.5 minute video about the meaning of a single word. My Monday morning routine is to bike the kids to school and then return home to enjoy my coffee while listening to the new episode while following along in my Bible study software. I like noting which books and authors Tim Mackie is quoting/reading and add many of these to my reading list. So many great books, but now my problem is that I can't read them fast enough :)
That sounds like a wonderful Monday morning routine!
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It's nearly the two-year anniversary of this thread and a lot has changed in my life and in my thinking around faith and money since then. Big life headliner is we had a baby and are now going to have another one, and we moved house and jobs. We're happier here! Big faith headliner is that we're Catholics now.
I think I've spent the past few years figuring out the difference in my life between having money and loving money. Not that I'm on top of the practice, but I have a much better conception of what that ought to look like and of some practices which are helpful and hurtful. It is not a sin to be prudent and to provide for your future, uncertain though that may be. Not everyone is cut out to be a Franciscan, and there's a middle ground to be found between mendicancy and profligate consumerism (though both extremes leaves you with £0 in the bank!).
I've come to accept somewhat that this is a bad season of life to obsess about service. I need to focus on my family and bringing up my children - and after that I just have nothing else to give. But they will grow up and need me less, and at that time I hope I will be ready to look outside the home a bit more to see what I can do out there. It is better for the moment for me to think about building a Christian home (if I have any energy left!) and I am trying to invite people into our home more (in ways that aren't too burdensome for us). We moved house and now have a bigger home and I feel a (good kind of) responsibility for making use of it for hospitality.
I'd like to see if I can get Mr SLTD on board with something like this: https://www.seriouseats.com/2014/08/simpler-entertaining-friday-night-dinners-end-loneliness-how-to-build-community-after-having-kids.html I'm trying to figure out when would be a good time for us, and also what we would cook! I'm thinking maybe rice and dal - flip on slow cooker in the morning and rice cooker in the evening, done.
We tithe now, sort of, giving 10% of one measure of income. We give 1/3 to the local church and 2/3 to a homelessness charity. We also give an extra ~£100 in Lent and Advent. I don't have any particular feelings about this, which is surprising to past-me.
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I'd like to see if I can get Mr SLTD on board with something like this: https://www.seriouseats.com/2014/08/simpler-entertaining-friday-night-dinners-end-loneliness-how-to-build-community-after-having-kids.html I'm trying to figure out when would be a good time for us, and also what we would cook! I'm thinking maybe rice and dal - flip on slow cooker in the morning and rice cooker in the evening, done.
SLTD, that's a great update.
I love this idea about the dinners. That seems like a great project, especially with a family. I never have anyone over because I don't feel like my place is clean enough or that I'm a good enough cook. But I really value the sense of community and welcome when other people host things.
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I completely agree with SLTD that--when you have young kids--problems of faith shift to the background, and problems of socializing become more important.
Why we don't host more people? My wife works from home and has most of the cooking skills, and I feel like I simply cannot invite people over because it's really creating a lot of work for her. But we find those times when we are able to just interact with neighbors spontaneously are some of the best.
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The question I have struggled with as I plan my post-FIRE expenses: Do I tithe at my new income level, or do I keep the same dollar amount (with perhaps an inflation adder over time) as I do now? The former fits the academic version of tithing, but seems a bit that I'm punishing the church and the needy for myself not working despite the ability to.
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I've wondered that too, though I'm nowhere near FIRE. If you really want to be stingy, I can see an argument that living off investments/savings isn't income at all - you've already tithed on it, at least - but my intention isn't to minimize giving through loopholes. I picture giving less and balancing it out by volunteering more, once I have the time to do so.
Alternately, if I find something I like enough, maybe I'll work part time and donate more than 10% of it.
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I question the validity of tithing, as in "give 10% of your income," for Christian living. Our teaching on this today is based on the commands from the Hebrew Bible which aren't as simple as giving 10% of income, and are instead related to the land that Israel received as their inheritance.
A good book to explore this is You Mean I Dont Have to Tithe?: A Deconstruction of Tithing and a Reconstruction of Post-Tithe Giving (https://www.amazon.com/Mean-Dont-Have-Tithe-Deconstruction/dp/1606084054)
IMO it's not about giving a set percentage. Christians are called to radical generosity, which could be less than 10% or often much much more. And this doesn't just apply to income, but also how we use wealth and time and everything.
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I thought getting up to giving 10% would feel like a Big Achievement to me, but I now find that it doesn't. I've spent a lot of time over the past few years thinking about what money is really for and what giving is all about. Catholics are taught to give, not to tithe, and I think it's much better to ask yourself whether you are giving generously and in all ways than to fiddle about with numbers to get to your 10% then forget about it.
Our church is having a month of giving in which we are all asked to reflect on the ways in which we might give to our church, our community, and the larger church. Money is only one of four sections, the others being growing the faith, assisting with services and helping the local community. It has been a real eye-opener for me.
If you're wondering what measure to use to tithe, I would suggest reflecting on what you think the point of tithing is in the first place. Why is it 10%? (Beyond "it's in the Bible, duh")
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I've wondered that too, though I'm nowhere near FIRE. If you really want to be stingy, I can see an argument that living off investments/savings isn't income at all - you've already tithed on it, at least - but my intention isn't to minimize giving through loopholes. I picture giving less and balancing it out by volunteering more, once I have the time to do so.
Alternately, if I find something I like enough, maybe I'll work part time and donate more than 10% of it.
Isn't pretty reasonable in a FIRE situation to give less money but give more of other things like volunteering or take a lay position within the church?
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I drink only what Jesus drank - water and wine.
Seriously. Okay, an occasional protein drink or green smoothie. But that's it.
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I drink only what Jesus drank -- water and wine.
I save a lot of money on beverages since I only drink water and wine. Seriously.
I drink only what Jesus drank - water and wine.
Seriously. Okay, an occasional protein drink or green smoothie. But that's it.
It's OK. We get the joke.
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The question I have struggled with as I plan my post-FIRE expenses: Do I tithe at my new income level, or do I keep the same dollar amount (with perhaps an inflation adder over time) as I do now? The former fits the academic version of tithing, but seems a bit that I'm punishing the church and the needy for myself not working despite the ability to.
The IRS (or other applicable government agency) has complex rules for what counts as income. As I started to learn about retirement saving and taxes, I started to question what I considered income for tithe (previously I simply based my tithe on gross pay). I thought about if the growth within retirement accounts should be tithed immediately or deferred; tithing as growth occurred would be increasingly difficult as the accounts grew yet were still inaccessible. I also thought about how difficult it would be to account for what portion of defined benefit income was a return of tithed contributions and what portion represented increase. At that point, I decided to deduct SS tax and pension contributions from my gross pay before calculating tithing. I have continued to tithe before contributions traditional IRAs, but now I'm considering deferring tithes on all tax deferred accounts. Part of this is a desire to minimize taxes (I think we can get expenses low enough that we can completely eliminate our Federal tax liability next year and we have the tax differed space to lower the income, deferring the tithes certainly would help achieve that goal and make meeting that goal less sensitive to changes in our gross income).