Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?

[VexedCoffee]

Hey @VexedCoffee, I don't have much to say in response to your actual post but I wanted to thank you for "outing yourself" as a priest. I am not Episcopalian, but I have a deep and abiding respect for the intellectualism that I have observed in Episcopals. N.T. Write is one of my favorite theological writers. I'm sorry your plans of being a geologist didn't work out, but hopefully you're on to bigger and better things now.

Haha, it was kind of wild when I looked back at my post history. A lot has changed from the last time I used these forums and as much fun as camping with my geology professors was I've definitely landed exactly where I am meant to be!

@VexedCoffee, your comment has been useful for me to ponder. Thanks.

Thanks!

[topshot]

There are protestant churches as well, but historically the Netherlands is very strictly Calvinist and I also don't think I could ever become a full member of a Calvinist church or a non-denominational protestant church that accepts the Synod of Dordt. That leaves very few options in my country. Arminian is considered an insult in most churches.

I would lean Arminian as well. It's not all that helpful, but my friend in the Netherlands had this response to your dilemma:

There are very strict and traditional churches in the Netherlands, but also churches who are not so traditional. There are Baptist churches and Evangelical churches. This person has to look in her city what churches there are and figure out what fits for her.

She attends an Evangelical one. She lives in Nijkerk.

[struggleism]

Hi guys 👋🏻 I’ve been wondering about following Jesus and subscribing to Mustachianism (and whether it’s possible to do both). I went so far as to write an article about it.

MOD EDIT: Link Removed.

Along the way, I stumbled across this thread. Your insights were very helpful. If you end up reading the article, I’d love your feedback. I’m still learning :)

Since my first post, I've been getting an error message when I try to log in as mrjoshrobertson, saying I've been banned for life due to spam. One strike, you're out? Hoping the moderators will grant me mercy and not ban this new username or, better yet, un-ban mrjoshrobertson. As a new member of this community, I was unaware of the No Spam rule (never mind that its 5/21/14 clarification says, "If your blog post is relevant to another thread that is ongoing, feel free to add the link, but do not abuse this.").

Happy to see that others continue to think about the topic. Happy Friday everyone!

[shelivesthedream]

I'm not and never have been a moderator, but as a reasonably longtime user of this forum I have seen an awful lot of people create an account, their first post is a link to their blog/book/MLM, and that's it. Even when it's a nicely-written post and not just the link to their mail order Viagra business on its own, it must be hard for the mods to tell the difference between someone who is just a spammer and someone who happens to be first inspired to post by something related to their blog.

Also, there are a lot of bloggers on here! I can understand them wanting to be a bit heavy handed or we'd be nothing but links!

I'm happy to see you back, though, and happy to be reminded of this thread. I have been re-reading it and will post an update of what's changed with me since I started it when I have a moment. I'm astonished all over again at what a helpful and thoughtful discussion it has been!

[struggleism]

I'm not and never have been a moderator, but as a reasonably longtime user of this forum I have seen an awful lot of people create an account, their first post is a link to their blog/book/MLM, and that's it. Even when it's a nicely-written post and not just the link to their mail order Viagra business on its own, it must be hard for the mods to tell the difference between someone who is just a spammer and someone who happens to be first inspired to post by something related to their blog.

Also, there are a lot of bloggers on here! I can understand them wanting to be a bit heavy handed or we'd be nothing but links!

I'm happy to see you back, though, and happy to be reminded of this thread. I have been re-reading it and will post an update of what's changed with me since I started it when I have a moment. I'm astonished all over again at what a helpful and thoughtful discussion it has been!

Thanks for the warm welcome and for providing a bit of context :) Looking forward to hearing what you've been noodling on!

[thesis]

I'm glad to see this thread brought back up again, too.

The more I think about it, the more compatible I find mustachianism is with Christianity. For example, most Mustachians are aiming for a stache in the $900k-$2million range, and many find $1.2 million to be a gold standard, but definitely still not required. To the spendypants of the world, this may look like hoarding, but when you look at Boglehead types, who often require $2-3 million+, you realize that while mustachians focus on keeping calm and carrying on, other financial literates who don't care about frugality and intelligent living often get stuck in a cycle of fear and paranoia about not having enough money. But there really is no such thing as perfect security. I think if you're a Christian and you think that your money can save you from everything in the world, you are very much missing a key element of your faith. I think there is a lot to be said about taking control of our lives intelligently and trusting God for the things outside of our control. Besides, being content on $4k/month is way less greedy than the way most people live their lives, IMO. Greed would be saying, "I need to make $120k every year for the rest of my life because I need ALL OF THE THINGS!" But there are a lot of nuances here that I'm too lazy to flesh out, too (ie it's okay to keep working, of course)

[struggleism]

But there really is no such thing as perfect security.

I need to be reminded of this all the time!

[Buffaloski Boris]

Interesting thread. I am a Christian. I occasionally even live up to the name.

I think The basic views of thrift, self sufficiency, and conservation are generally compatible with the faith.  Some of the more cult like aspects of Mustachianism are questionable, and there are some folks here who are antagonistic to the faith.

 I view this as a secular trend, one that I happen to mostly like, but a trend I don’t expect to last all for all that long.

[FINate]

I view this as a secular trend, one that I happen to mostly like, but a trend I don’t expect to last all for all that long.

I agree. The FIRE movement is likely a ripple in a long stream of happiness fads. I don't expect it to disappear completely because it has been around a lot longer than this recent crop of bloggers. Don't get me wrong, I like being FIRE and it's been great for getting off the hedonic treadmill and freeing up time/energy to serve more while also plumbing some of the depths of the faith. [A bit obsessed with N.T. Wright at the moment, along with a couple other scholars.] But FIRE is not our Messiah, nor will it fulfill people the way they often expect...it's a means, not an end unto itself. I've come to view FIRE in light of Paul's writings in 1 Corinthians 7:21-23...if you can gain your freedom then do so, but celebrate your freedom with purpose.

[struggleism]

I view this as a secular trend, one that I happen to mostly like, but a trend I don’t expect to last all for all that long.

I agree. The FIRE movement is likely a ripple in a long stream of happiness fads. I don't expect it to disappear completely because it has been around a lot longer than this recent crop of bloggers. Don't get me wrong, I like being FIRE and it's been great for getting off the hedonic treadmill and freeing up time/energy to serve more while also plumbing some of the depths of the faith. [A bit obsessed with N.T. Wright at the moment, along with a couple other scholars.] But FIRE is not our Messiah, nor will it fulfill people the way they often expect...it's a means, not an end unto itself. I've come to view FIRE in light of Paul's writings in 1 Corinthians 7:21-23...if you can gain your freedom then do so, but celebrate your freedom with purpose.

Well said. I hadn't considered that 1 Cor 7 passage as potentially relevant. N.T. Wright is great. I like listening to The Bible Project podcast, and they've had him on a couple times recently.

[FINate]

I view this as a secular trend, one that I happen to mostly like, but a trend I don’t expect to last all for all that long.

I agree. The FIRE movement is likely a ripple in a long stream of happiness fads. I don't expect it to disappear completely because it has been around a lot longer than this recent crop of bloggers. Don't get me wrong, I like being FIRE and it's been great for getting off the hedonic treadmill and freeing up time/energy to serve more while also plumbing some of the depths of the faith. [A bit obsessed with N.T. Wright at the moment, along with a couple other scholars.] But FIRE is not our Messiah, nor will it fulfill people the way they often expect...it's a means, not an end unto itself. I've come to view FIRE in light of Paul's writings in 1 Corinthians 7:21-23...if you can gain your freedom then do so, but celebrate your freedom with purpose.

Well said. I hadn't considered that 1 Cor 7 passage as potentially relevant. N.T. Wright is great. I like listening to The Bible Project podcast, and they've had him on a couple times recently.

We've been financial supporters of The Bible Project for a couple years. Their videos are great, very well done and packed full of deep insight. But the real treasure is the podcast where hours of discussion is distilled down into a 5 minute video. Their recent word study on the word Gospel is a good example: 4 hours of rich podcast discussion that informs a 4.5 minute video about the meaning of a single word. My Monday morning routine is to bike the kids to school and then return home to enjoy my coffee while listening to the new episode while following along in my Bible study software. I like noting which books and authors Tim Mackie is quoting/reading and add many of these to my reading list. So many great books, but now my problem is that I can't read them fast enough :)

[struggleism]

We've been financial supporters of The Bible Project for a couple years. Their videos are great, very well done and packed full of deep insight. But the real treasure is the podcast where hours of discussion is distilled down into a 5 minute video. Their recent word study on the word Gospel is a good example: 4 hours of rich podcast discussion that informs a 4.5 minute video about the meaning of a single word. My Monday morning routine is to bike the kids to school and then return home to enjoy my coffee while listening to the new episode while following along in my Bible study software. I like noting which books and authors Tim Mackie is quoting/reading and add many of these to my reading list. So many great books, but now my problem is that I can't read them fast enough :)

That sounds like a wonderful Monday morning routine!

[shelivesthedream]

It's nearly the two-year anniversary of this thread and a lot has changed in my life and in my thinking around faith and money since then. Big life headliner is we had a baby and are now going to have another one, and we moved house and jobs. We're happier here! Big faith headliner is that we're Catholics now.

I think I've spent the past few years figuring out the difference in my life between having money and loving money. Not that I'm on top of the practice, but I have a much better conception of what that ought to look like and of some practices which are helpful and hurtful. It is not a sin to be prudent and to provide for your future, uncertain though that may be. Not everyone is cut out to be a Franciscan, and there's a middle ground to be found between mendicancy and profligate consumerism (though both extremes leaves you with £0 in the bank!).

I've come to accept somewhat that this is a bad season of life to obsess about service. I need to focus on my family and bringing up my children - and after that I just have nothing else to give. But they will grow up and need me less, and at that time I hope I will be ready to look outside the home a bit more to see what I can do out there. It is better for the moment for me to think about building a Christian home (if I have any energy left!) and I am trying to invite people into our home more (in ways that aren't too burdensome for us). We moved house and now have a bigger home and I feel a (good kind of) responsibility for making use of it for hospitality.

I'd like to see if I can get Mr SLTD on board with something like this: https://www.seriouseats.com/2014/08/simpler-entertaining-friday-night-dinners-end-loneliness-how-to-build-community-after-having-kids.html I'm trying to figure out when would be a good time for us, and also what we would cook! I'm thinking maybe rice and dal - flip on slow cooker in the morning and rice cooker in the evening, done.

We tithe now, sort of, giving 10% of one measure of income. We give 1/3 to the local church and 2/3 to a homelessness charity. We also give an extra ~£100 in Lent and Advent. I don't have any particular feelings about this, which is surprising to past-me.

[Kwill]

I'd like to see if I can get Mr SLTD on board with something like this: https://www.seriouseats.com/2014/08/simpler-entertaining-friday-night-dinners-end-loneliness-how-to-build-community-after-having-kids.html I'm trying to figure out when would be a good time for us, and also what we would cook! I'm thinking maybe rice and dal - flip on slow cooker in the morning and rice cooker in the evening, done.

SLTD, that's a great update.

I love this idea about the dinners. That seems like a great project, especially with a family. I never have anyone over because I don't feel like my place is clean enough or that I'm a good enough cook. But I really value the sense of community and welcome when other people host things.

[talltexan]

I completely agree with SLTD that--when you have young kids--problems of faith shift to the background, and problems of socializing become more important.

Why we don't host more people? My wife works from home and has most of the cooking skills, and I feel like I simply cannot invite people over because it's really creating a lot of work for her. But we find those times when we are able to just interact with neighbors spontaneously are some of the best.

[pressure9pa]

The question I have struggled with as I plan my post-FIRE expenses:  Do I tithe at my new income level, or do I keep the same dollar amount (with perhaps an inflation adder over time) as I do now?  The former fits the academic version of tithing, but seems a bit that I'm punishing the church and the needy for myself not working despite the ability to.

[Tass]

I've wondered that too, though I'm nowhere near FIRE. If you really want to be stingy, I can see an argument that living off investments/savings isn't income at all - you've already tithed on it, at least - but my intention isn't to minimize giving through loopholes. I picture giving less and balancing it out by volunteering more, once I have the time to do so.

Alternately, if I find something I like enough, maybe I'll work part time and donate more than 10% of it.

[FINate]

I question the validity of tithing, as in "give 10% of your income," for Christian living. Our teaching on this today is based on the commands from the Hebrew Bible which aren't as simple as giving 10% of income, and are instead related to the land that Israel received as their inheritance.

A good book to explore this is You Mean I Dont Have to Tithe?: A Deconstruction of Tithing and a Reconstruction of Post-Tithe Giving

IMO it's not about giving a set percentage. Christians are called to radical generosity, which could be less than 10% or often much much more. And this doesn't just apply to income, but also how we use wealth and time and everything.

[shelivesthedream]

I thought getting up to giving 10% would feel like a Big Achievement to me, but I now find that it doesn't. I've spent a lot of time over the past few years thinking about what money is really for and what giving is all about. Catholics are taught to give, not to tithe, and I think it's much better to ask yourself whether you are giving generously and in all ways than to fiddle about with numbers to get to your 10% then forget about it.

Our church is having a month of giving in which we are all asked to reflect on the ways in which we might give to our church, our community, and the larger church. Money is only one of four sections, the others being growing the faith, assisting with services and helping the local community. It has been a real eye-opener for me.

If you're wondering what measure to use to tithe, I would suggest reflecting on what you think the point of tithing is in the first place. Why is it 10%? (Beyond "it's in the Bible, duh")

[elliha]

I've wondered that too, though I'm nowhere near FIRE. If you really want to be stingy, I can see an argument that living off investments/savings isn't income at all - you've already tithed on it, at least - but my intention isn't to minimize giving through loopholes. I picture giving less and balancing it out by volunteering more, once I have the time to do so.

Alternately, if I find something I like enough, maybe I'll work part time and donate more than 10% of it.

Isn't pretty reasonable in a FIRE situation to give less money but give more of other things like volunteering or take a lay position within the church?

[LiveLean]

I drink only what Jesus drank - water and wine.

Seriously. Okay, an occasional protein drink or green smoothie. But that's it.

[shelivesthedream]

I drink only what Jesus drank -- water and wine.

I save a lot of money on beverages since I only drink water and wine. Seriously.

I drink only what Jesus drank - water and wine.

Seriously. Okay, an occasional protein drink or green smoothie. But that's it.

It's OK. We get the joke.

[robartsd]

The question I have struggled with as I plan my post-FIRE expenses:  Do I tithe at my new income level, or do I keep the same dollar amount (with perhaps an inflation adder over time) as I do now?  The former fits the academic version of tithing, but seems a bit that I'm punishing the church and the needy for myself not working despite the ability to.

The IRS (or other applicable government agency) has complex rules for what counts as income. As I started to learn about retirement saving and taxes, I started to question what I considered income for tithe (previously I simply based my tithe on gross pay). I thought about if the growth within retirement accounts should be tithed immediately or deferred; tithing as growth occurred would be increasingly difficult as the accounts grew yet were still inaccessible. I also thought about how difficult it would be to account for what portion of defined benefit income was a return of tithed contributions and what portion represented increase. At that point, I decided to deduct SS tax and pension contributions from my gross pay before calculating tithing. I have continued to tithe before contributions traditional IRAs, but now I'm considering deferring tithes on all tax deferred accounts. Part of this is a desire to minimize taxes (I think we can get expenses low enough that we can completely eliminate our Federal tax liability next year and we have the tax differed space to lower the income, deferring the tithes certainly would help achieve that goal and make meeting that goal less sensitive to changes in our gross income).