Author Topic: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?  (Read 40483 times)

shelivesthedream

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #100 on: February 13, 2018, 01:59:38 AM »
I think Daley's quote from Hebrews 13 (the message of which pops up many times) is the key to answering Dave Ramsey's question with a big fat NO. "The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil", and I cannot see how a £30k watch or £50k car* can be anything other than greed and vanity. You're right that it's hard to draw an exact boundary between hair shirts and unreasonable luxuries, but many "small luxuries" exist that promote good values: buying a coffee with a friend to build community, spending more on good food to promote good farming. Let's not get bogged down in the details. But somewhere there is a line above which it is definitely unreasonable, and a £30k watch is certainly it.

*My parents live in a £1 million house...but it's in a London suburb so it's just a fairly nice, largeish terraced house and is really not egregiously fancy. Property prices be crazy.

Thegoblinchief

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #101 on: February 13, 2018, 04:39:42 AM »
The Ramsey quote just strikes me as prosperity gospel nastiness.

No longer a practicing Christian but since it was so much a part of my early formative years I find this discussion super interesting. The main thing I struggle with currently is whether to give to charity at our current financial position or focus everything on getting our financial house in complete order as fast as possible. (As if we don’t still waste money, which is we totally do.)

@Daley very interesting post, makes my mental image of you after years on the forum that much more interesting!

misshathaway

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #102 on: February 13, 2018, 05:28:12 AM »
Does anyone follow Radical Personal Finance? I am fascinated by Joshua Sheats' increasing inclusion of Biblical themes in the shows, even though he knows it may decrease listenership. I think that's brave and so is this thread. I guess I'd call myself a lapsed Christian at this point, but his recent show on the practical aspects of charitable giving helped me.

Someone upthread mentioned Mustachianism "religion". I don't think that's too far off for some people looking for a life-framework substitute for religion. There are many forum posts asking if this or that behavior conforms to Mustachianism.

Thegoblinchief

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #103 on: February 13, 2018, 07:04:42 AM »
Does anyone follow Radical Personal Finance? I am fascinated by Joshua Sheats' increasing inclusion of Biblical themes in the shows, even though he knows it may decrease listenership. I think that's brave and so is this thread. I guess I'd call myself a lapsed Christian at this point, but his recent show on the practical aspects of charitable giving helped me.

Someone upthread mentioned Mustachianism "religion". I don't think that's too far off for some people looking for a life-framework substitute for religion. There are many forum posts asking if this or that behavior conforms to Mustachianism.

I’ve listened his show in the past but not for some time, for a while I didn’t have time to listen to many podcasts but I’m starting to catch back up lately, might add his show in again.

Lance Burkhart

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #104 on: February 13, 2018, 09:46:57 AM »
An interesting question came up the other day: should Christians prioritise helping the Christian poor over the non-Christian poor?

Absolutely.  If there's any left over after helping the Christian poor, help non-CHristians (Gal 6:10).  Too many charities become an end to themselves (jobs for charity workers, enabling non-work) rather than a charity.  My mother worked in a bread line for the homeless for a long time and finally gave up realizing the homeless do not want to work.  In the Christian church, if you don't work, you don't eat (2 THess 3:10)

caracarn

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #105 on: February 13, 2018, 10:03:22 AM »
OP:   Doesnt affect it at all
They are orthogonal. 
What does your faith have to do with monetary affairs?
I completely disagree with this viewpoint.

My faith has everything to do with how I manage my money.  That is because everything we have is God's, not ours, and He expects us to be good stewards of anything we have.  He gave mankind dominion over the earth and everything on it, and we are to handle it as He would have, i.e. constantly growing in Christlikeness in everything, including our money. 

Where I have found Mustachianism oppose my faith is when things such as tithing are questioned in case studies.  Giving to God firstfruits as a way of worship is core to my faith.  Acts 1:8 dicates the order of giving of our treasure and talents.  Jerusalem first, Judea and Samaria next and the uttermost parts of the world last.  This is why I do not give a lot to the orphans in Africa.  My focus is to be on my local communities needs first and in greater quantity than my focus on others.  If each grouping of the body of Christ follows that basic principle we take care of all the needs.  In setting my budget I also do not spend on things that run contrary to my faith.  I have no line for the porn account, directly or buried in my entertainment budget, for example. 

The whole idea of how faith could not be seen to impact monetary affairs is mind boggling to me.  Where our treasure lies our heart lies also.

Fireball

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #106 on: February 13, 2018, 10:21:16 AM »
The main thing I struggle with currently is whether to give to charity at our current financial position or focus everything on getting our financial house in complete order as fast as possible.

Harbinger,

I struggled with that too. Ultimately, I decided to give to various charities regardless of my financial position. My thought was that at the very moment I was trying to decide what to do there were people out there just hoping to find their next meal or a warm place to sleep. All the while, the biggest decision I had going was related to paying off debt and financial independence.  Seemed like a no brainer to me.  With that said, no judgement for those who have decided otherwise.

Cowardly Toaster

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #107 on: February 13, 2018, 12:12:13 PM »
I haven't read this whole thread so someone else may have said this, but aren't the Proverbs of Solomon essentially Mustachianism.txt?

robartsd

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #108 on: February 13, 2018, 12:47:13 PM »
An interesting question came up the other day: should Christians prioritise helping the Christian poor over the non-Christian poor? My instincts say no but I'm having a hard time thinking out why. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts y'all might have on this.
I can see times when it would be appropriate to reserve help for needy Christians. I know that my church has some resources that are normally reserved for helping needy members of the church and other resources that are offered based on need without respect to faith. I think there is some obligation to help the poor among us before seeking out others in need. This would be most appropriate where Christians are a minority (as was the case in the early church, and still is in some parts of the world). As individuals in communities where Christianity is prominent, I think most of us should make efforts to help the needy without respect to religion.

Weedon

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #109 on: February 13, 2018, 07:43:57 PM »
Lutheran here. I think the guidance we have is from St. Paul:

“So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.” Galatians 6:10


thriftyc

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #110 on: February 18, 2018, 05:56:10 PM »
An interesting question came up the other day: should Christians prioritise helping the Christian poor over the non-Christian poor? My instincts say no but I'm having a hard time thinking out why. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts y'all might have on this.

Think about all the people Jesus deliberately reached out to help that were at the fringes of society, and not like him and his friends or culture he grew up in:  Woman at the well (Samaritan), the Eunach from egypt? (a deviant sexual type for society at the time), Tax collectors, non-jews, the diseased, blind, disabled, young, poor, women with no status, etc.

He was very intentional about lifting up those pushed aside by society because they were "not like" everyone else.   His message is one about social justice, really.   Aren't we supposed to use him as an example in our lives?

^^^ This ^^^

sequoia

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #111 on: February 23, 2018, 12:04:21 PM »
An interesting question came up the other day: should Christians prioritise helping the Christian poor over the non-Christian poor? My instincts say no but I'm having a hard time thinking out why. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts y'all might have on this.

Think about all the people Jesus deliberately reached out to help that were at the fringes of society, and not like him and his friends or culture he grew up in:  Woman at the well (Samaritan), the Eunach from egypt? (a deviant sexual type for society at the time), Tax collectors, non-jews, the diseased, blind, disabled, young, poor, women with no status, etc.

He was very intentional about lifting up those pushed aside by society because they were "not like" everyone else.   His message is one about social justice, really.   Aren't we supposed to use him as an example in our lives?

^^^ This ^^^

+1

alewpanda

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #112 on: February 23, 2018, 03:19:15 PM »
We are part of the Christian church, and I feel like our relationship with God simply gives us clearer goals and motivations for Mustachianism.

Obviously, 'hoarding' in the sense of greed is wrong, but saving for the sake of freedom can be right, if the freedom includes the freedom to be generous, serve others, minister, and give of yourself.

Part of my desire for FIRE is not neccesarily to fully retire early, its simply so that we have the flexibility to do things like move, take trips, take on poorer paid jobs, write, teach, and minister to whomever and wherever we feel led, regardless of cost/circumstance.  We also love giving to worthy ministries and causes, and we can choose to care for those less fortunate and those that are part of our church family, because we are wiser than many with our money.

Of anyone, a mustachian with a strong faith background will likely find it easier to avoid being 'taken over' by the money saving aspect, because one is consistently reminded of the purpose and motivations of life behind it...living both joyfully (as God intended) and generously (as God intended).  Contentment is a huge factor, and knowing what true wealth is too.   Faith shouldn't ever be annoying, boring, or stuffy....faith is persistence, zeal, risk-taking, and action....which are often things associated with the Mustachian way! 

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #113 on: February 23, 2018, 09:10:51 PM »
Just to answer the question about whether Christians should help the Christian poor more than the non-Christian poor: That's just silly. We don't help people because THEY are Christian. We help people because WE are Christian.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #114 on: February 24, 2018, 02:38:35 AM »
Just to answer the question about whether Christians should help the Christian poor more than the non-Christian poor: That's just silly. We don't help people because THEY are Christian. We help people because WE are Christian.

Thank you - I think this is what I was failing to find the words for.

alewpanda

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #115 on: February 24, 2018, 09:52:54 AM »
Lutheran here. I think the guidance we have is from St. Paul:

“So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.” Galatians 6:10


This.  What better witness is there than to see that the church family truly treats each other like a family....not to the exclusion of others, but making sure that the family of God is not suffering first is good and healthy.  An excellent image and example of God's intention for all of mankind to be doing for their 'tribe'.

mrjoshrobertson

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #116 on: August 16, 2019, 07:08:01 AM »
Hi guys 👋🏻 I’ve been wondering about following Jesus and subscribing to Mustachianism (and whether it’s possible to do both). I went so far as to write an article about it.

MOD EDIT: Link Removed.

Along the way, I stumbled across this thread. Your insights were very helpful. If you end up reading the article, I’d love your feedback. I’m still learning :)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 05:45:14 PM by arebelspy »

sherr

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #117 on: August 16, 2019, 07:38:36 AM »
blah blah <link to my blog>

Hey @mrjoshrobertson, I see you're new here. You should know that the forum rules specifically prohibit linking to your own blog anywhere except your signature line (rule #5, also see the edit clarifying it below the triangle). Also the fact that self-promotion is your first post will leave a bad taste in people's mouth.

robartsd

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #118 on: August 16, 2019, 09:43:49 AM »
Hi guys 👋🏻 I’ve been wondering about following Jesus and subscribing to Mustachianism (and whether it’s possible to do both). I went so far as to write an article about it.

MOD EDIT: Link Removed.

Along the way, I stumbled across this thread. Your insights were very helpful. If you end up reading the article, I’d love your feedback. I’m still learning :)
Thanks for sharing. Looks like you've done a fairly comprehensive analysis of interactions of Mustachianism and faith. I think a primary risk of Mustachianism is the temptation to reduce giving to increase savings (often justifying that they are back-loading their giving - postponing giving until FI or death). Another risk is seeking FIRE for selfish reasons rather than in order to give more freely of your time.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 05:45:24 PM by arebelspy »

A Fella from Stella

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #119 on: August 16, 2019, 10:11:15 AM »
Congratulations on making it to this point in your journey.

If anything, let your Christianity guide you to FIRE. when you FIRE, you will be free to give of your time and money.

Should you give? Of course. Giving is good for you. Should you tithe? Not as a matter of salvation, and maybe not necessarily to a church. The word "tithe" merely means 1/10. You part with 1/10 of your income. But the church doesn't deserve it; they just have the opportunity to do good things...things you could also do if you knew who needed it.

Kwill

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #120 on: August 16, 2019, 11:58:09 AM »
... Should you tithe? Not as a matter of salvation, and maybe not necessarily to a church. The word "tithe" merely means 1/10. You part with 1/10 of your income. But the church doesn't deserve it; they just have the opportunity to do good things...things you could also do if you knew who needed it.

This seems a little strange to me, and I wonder what you mean exactly. Presumably if you were tithing to a church, it would be a church you are part of. Not a 'they' but a 'we'...

A Fella from Stella

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #121 on: August 16, 2019, 12:00:43 PM »
... Should you tithe? Not as a matter of salvation, and maybe not necessarily to a church. The word "tithe" merely means 1/10. You part with 1/10 of your income. But the church doesn't deserve it; they just have the opportunity to do good things...things you could also do if you knew who needed it.

This seems a little strange to me, and I wonder what you mean exactly. Presumably if you were tithing to a church, it would be a church you are part of. Not a 'they' but a 'we'...

Love your point here. While I go to a church, I am not a member of one, and so am a visitor.

marion10

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #122 on: August 16, 2019, 01:25:17 PM »
Although a Christian, we do not restrict our giving to our church. We aim roughly for a 50/50 split.

Kwill

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #123 on: August 16, 2019, 02:00:06 PM »
... Should you tithe? Not as a matter of salvation, and maybe not necessarily to a church. The word "tithe" merely means 1/10. You part with 1/10 of your income. But the church doesn't deserve it; they just have the opportunity to do good things...things you could also do if you knew who needed it.

This seems a little strange to me, and I wonder what you mean exactly. Presumably if you were tithing to a church, it would be a church you are part of. Not a 'they' but a 'we'...

Love your point here. While I go to a church, I am not a member of one, and so am a visitor.

I hope you find a church where you can be home. CS Lewis said something about it being good to be in the hallway of Christianity but that the warmth and fellowship was in the rooms. Or something like that. It sounded better the way he said it. . . . Here it is.

Daley

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #124 on: August 16, 2019, 04:58:00 PM »
I'd just like to remind everyone picking the thread back up that the "church" is not a building, structure, or organization. It is supposed to be the very living body of believers themselves.

If your idea and definition of what defines the church falls outside this scope of understanding, you might be missing the mark.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 04:59:43 PM by Daley »

Kwill

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #125 on: August 17, 2019, 01:31:47 AM »
I'd just like to remind everyone picking the thread back up that the "church" is not a building, structure, or organization. It is supposed to be the very living body of believers themselves.

If your idea and definition of what defines the church falls outside this scope of understanding, you might be missing the mark.

Well, it's all of the above. The visible church is made up of living, breathing human beings who need buildings and structures and organisation just as part of life. We need buildings to meet in and worship in, though sure, we could do without buildings for a time if we had to. We need structure and organisation to pass on the faith and to keep ourselves from bickering or getting too far off in what we believe. Buildings take some money to keep up, and people who dedicate their lives to sharing the faith and supporting others in the church deserve support for food, shelter, clothing, and so forth. If the church is going to give to the poor and so forth, then that money has to come from somewhere, too. If we are the church, then we need to take care of our community needs, not just our individual ones.

Imma

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #126 on: August 17, 2019, 03:52:22 AM »
But how do you find a church 'home'? I visit churches every now and then but they never feel like a home. I would like to be a part of a community but it seems every church is dogmatic and legalistic in its own way.

marion10

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #127 on: August 17, 2019, 07:01:05 AM »
I am an Episcopalian- what some would consider a liberal branch of Christianity. Worship tends to be formal and structured- which I like- but generally theology is liberal. It’s an important part of my life.

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #128 on: August 17, 2019, 12:48:21 PM »
But how do you find a church 'home'? I visit churches every now and then but they never feel like a home. I would like to be a part of a community but it seems every church is dogmatic and legalistic in its own way.
Finding a good congregation to call home is certainly difficult unfortunately, and I would guess even more so in a large one. Of course, as your faith journey and family situation changes you may find a congregation that had been "good" at the time may not be so much anymore, but nothing says you need to stay either. If they refuse to grow in their faith as you have, perhaps you are called elsewhere or maybe you are the one needed to assist in their growth. I regularly attend 2 congregations. The tiny inner-city one definitely feels more like family. Even though the other is just 2 miles away, it is a totally different neighborhood and much larger and we have been there over 25 years.

To some degree Christians must be dogmatic because they do need to follow Scripture. Of course, Scripture has been interpreted by some in wildly different ways, but it really boils down to loving God and loving others as someone once said. :)

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #129 on: August 17, 2019, 02:07:08 PM »
I save a lot of money on beverages since I only drink water and wine. Seriously.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #130 on: August 17, 2019, 02:33:10 PM »

I drink only what Jesus drank -- water and wine.

I save a lot of money on beverages since I only drink water and wine. Seriously.

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #131 on: August 17, 2019, 03:06:49 PM »
Non-denominational here.

I think I may be echoing some here when I say that the principals espoused by MMM and Christianity can indeed be compatible if they're not taken to their extremes.   We shouldn't be worshiping our 'staches.  We're called to be good stewards of that which is given to us.  The most valuable of assets is our time.  It's that which we trade for money.  God has asked us to give of him our time and our resources.  Being able to spend more time doing what He's asked of us is key.  Being FI and retired (no RE for me, missed that train) means more time to spend in the above.

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #132 on: August 17, 2019, 05:19:18 PM »
But how do you find a church 'home'? I visit churches every now and then but they never feel like a home. I would like to be a part of a community but it seems every church is dogmatic and legalistic in its own way.

If you're going to define any church that has rules and requirements as "dogmatic and legalistic," you're unlikely to find anything of interest beyond the Unitarians, who, depending on the congregation, believe everything at once (including all the mutually exclusive things).  I don't consider that a "church" so much as a "faintly spiritual, or not if you don't believe any of that, Sunday social club."

When I'm looking for a church (which is fairly rare - we don't move that often), I look for two things:
  - Sermons that are, in majority, preaching through books of the Bible, and
  - Mid-week small groups/lifegroups/community groups/(whatever they call that particular form of ~10-15 person midweek gathering).

This will generally get you in the vicinity of a Biblically solid church with good community (typically they're Baptist affiliated, even if not officially Baptists), though I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for or not.

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #133 on: August 17, 2019, 05:37:58 PM »
An interesting question came up the other day: should Christians prioritise helping the Christian poor over the non-Christian poor? My instincts say no but I'm having a hard time thinking out why. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts y'all might have on this.
I can see times when it would be appropriate to reserve help for needy Christians. I know that my church has some resources that are normally reserved for helping needy members of the church and other resources that are offered based on need without respect to faith. I think there is some obligation to help the poor among us before seeking out others in need. This would be most appropriate where Christians are a minority (as was the case in the early church, and still is in some parts of the world). As individuals in communities where Christianity is prominent, I think most of us should make efforts to help the needy without respect to religion.

Not attempting to correct you, but I am.  As a new hardcore, spoken to by Jesus himself Christian.  Jesus cares about everyone equally.  The entire message is to not value your "in group" more. Everyone!  Slaves obey slave masters.  Not because slavery is just.  At all.  But you are better off acting peaceful to abuse and make the slavers look crappy. 


 

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #134 on: August 17, 2019, 05:42:42 PM »
No. Jesus didn't take a survey of someone's religious beliefs before He helped them. Why should we?

People who don't belong to the faith count as neighbors. And He told us to love our neighbors as ourselves. It stands to reason that we should treat non-Christians in the same way we would want to be treated by them.

And... a great way to convert them. Better than war, or oppression.  Loving them is a great way to convert them. 

robincanada

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #135 on: August 17, 2019, 06:13:09 PM »
... Should you tithe? Not as a matter of salvation, and maybe not necessarily to a church. The word "tithe" merely means 1/10. You part with 1/10 of your income. But the church doesn't deserve it; they just have the opportunity to do good things...things you could also do if you knew who needed it.

This seems a little strange to me, and I wonder what you mean exactly. Presumably if you were tithing to a church, it would be a church you are part of. Not a 'they' but a 'we'...

Love your point here. While I go to a church, I am not a member of one, and so am a visitor.

I feel like all humans are with Jesus.  They don't have to believe it. He loves all.

Heaven is for the truly good.  But virtually no one is.  Jesus let's us be humans and not "perfect".  But salvation can be for all.  Religion is both to keep the bad in line, and drive good to deeper faith.

Kwill

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #136 on: August 18, 2019, 02:14:02 PM »
But how do you find a church 'home'? I visit churches every now and then but they never feel like a home. I would like to be a part of a community but it seems every church is dogmatic and legalistic in its own way.

I've been thinking a lot about this since you posted it.

In the long term, I think it makes sense to pray through the question, read through the Bible, read theology, and talk to people to really come to a better understanding of your faith and where you need to be.

In the short term, if you've tried all the local options and can't decide, I would suggest going to the very closest one geographically, especially if the time is convenient. That way, you have a better chance of going regularly, and you will meet neighbours. Community is a benefit of going to church on Sunday, but the first purpose is worship.

What is home? My little flat is home, not because it's the best place in my town but because it's the place where I live and spend time. I feel comfortable there because it's familiar. My friends and family may not be the best people on earth, but they are people that I know and have spent time with and have grown to love and be comfortable with. If no ready-made community is presented to you in an obvious way, maybe you can be part of building community within the place that is given to you.

familyandfarming

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #137 on: August 19, 2019, 04:54:21 PM »
We live in the middle of nowhere and had a child bullied badly at our local church. Another church was 20 miles away, so we "homeschooled" our children's Sunday school. Later, they all attended a Catholic College, where they took several religion classes.(They did well in those classes with what they learned from their "homeschooled" Sunday school.) They all converted to Catholicism.

We don't tithe, as we don't go to a specific church. Instead, we donate to charities and help others who need help.

I HIGHLY recommend The Bible Project Podcasts. My Strange Bible is good too. Gotta love Tim Mackie http://www.timmackie.com/about-tim

https://thebibleproject.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjwkenqBRBgEiwA-bZVtstZ9EPQmnvfHbf0p9Riz8bgSfvZvgT0PTDE4-58iouP2nQvfq8CWBoC-CIQAvD_BwE

Ozlady

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #138 on: August 19, 2019, 05:51:36 PM »
I try my best to live by Proverbs 31: 10-31...esp. verses 16,20,27

Missy B

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #139 on: August 19, 2019, 09:02:04 PM »
Charity is something I really struggle with. I struggle with slowing down our FIRE journey, especially since we came in to Mustachianism in poor financial health, thinking that in achieving our baseline goals sooner and then doing charitable work our total lifetime charity will be highest. But maybe that's my natural tight-fistedness speaking.

I think that's just a different approach, not necessarily a better or worse option. I don't believe in a one-size-fits-all approach. Which is also why I'm not really a supporter of tithing. Of course it's a good thing to make it a habit to support charity, but I have also met people who seem to think they can 'buy off' their sins by giving 10% to church.

One of the more important men in the (Catholic) church I grew up in was a guy like that. He owned a local business that employed a lot of people, he had plenty of money and gave very generously to the church. His wife and kids were very active in the church community, they seemed to be decent enough people, but he was a pretty nasty guy. He was arrogant, creepy around women, partied heavily when away on business trips. Giving to charity is a good habit, but for some people tithing is a really easy thing to do and it kind of justifies everything else for them. I believe that you should try to be charitable every day of your life, not just on payday when you write the check to your church. 

One of the main reasons why I grew disenchanted with the Catholic church is because I saw in my local parish how much money the church needed to spend on itself, rather than on charity, and that they needed it so desperately they were willing to put up with the behaviour of nasty guys like that local rich guy.

The Mafia gave a lot of money to the Catholic Church when John Paul was Pope. I am not Catholic, but found this very troubling. I am sure the Church justified it by saying all the good they could do with tens of millions of Mafia dollars, but the money was earned through human misery. Drugs, prostitution, loan sharking, who knows what else. The Mafia boss who donated the money no doubt thought of it as a modern day Papal Indulgence.

I do not think Jesus would have taken their money.

namasteyall

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #140 on: August 20, 2019, 12:37:12 AM »
But how do you find a church 'home'? I visit churches every now and then but they never feel like a home. I would like to be a part of a community but it seems every church is dogmatic and legalistic in its own way.

I really appreciated my Unitarian Universalist church and their fellowship and concern for others.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #141 on: August 20, 2019, 07:48:28 AM »
But how do you find a church 'home'? I visit churches every now and then but they never feel like a home. I would like to be a part of a community but it seems every church is dogmatic and legalistic in its own way.

I really appreciated my Unitarian Universalist church and their fellowship and concern for others.

An Anecdote!

I'm culturally Catholic - large families, and 12 years of parochial school - but I'm not specifically a practicing Catholic myself, though I like attending church. I gave the local UU church a try, because it was closest to my house and I figured the message of humanitarianism was something I could jive with. I enjoyed it, right up until the moment the Pastor, a pagan, said we were going to celebrate spring by standing up and blessing the four directions.

Nope.

Nope, nope, nope.

All the hair rose up on my arms, and I booked it from the pew, never to return. Guess I'm a little more One God, And Shit Is He Jealous, than I ever realized. ;)

caracarn

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #142 on: August 20, 2019, 02:55:49 PM »
But how do you find a church 'home'? I visit churches every now and then but they never feel like a home. I would like to be a part of a community but it seems every church is dogmatic and legalistic in its own way.
I see you are in Europe so perhaps some limited value here but you may want to check out https://archmin.org/.  Very focused group on solid bible teaching (expository preaching going through one book of the Bible at a time) at most of these churches.  If you are looking for solid foundations, any of these places are a great starting point.  We belong to one of these churches, and from the outside they may be legalistic, but they are following the scriptures for decisions.  I have been in over a dozen churches in my life.  Never anything as exciting and supportive as this, where 97% of our congregation is involved in discipleship (and we have nearly 1,000 members so 97% is a lot of people).  All the things most people get turned away by are not present and I've visited a couple other churches on the site when I travel (I use this site to find them for that purpose) and found the goal of the organization to be accurate that they are like minded churches.

Again, this is more useful for US based folks with your question, but thought I'd share.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #143 on: August 20, 2019, 03:27:50 PM »
@Imma Have you considered the Quakers? They believe in plain living and individual contribution.

I agree with others though that it doesn't sound like you really want a church. All churches have rules. Whether they declare them up front or not, whether they say they are straight from the Bible, handed down from traditional authority, or from divine inspiration. A church is more than a community. It can certainly help with feeling lonely but it's not just a social group.

We go to two churches - one we really like but is an hour away, and one that's ten minutes walk when we can't manage the travel. The first one is gorgeous and has beautiful music and is really welcoming. The second is kind of dreary and not very holy but does the job.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 03:31:35 PM by shelivesthedream »

VexedCoffee

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #144 on: August 20, 2019, 05:57:07 PM »
But how do you find a church 'home'? I visit churches every now and then but they never feel like a home. I would like to be a part of a community but it seems every church is dogmatic and legalistic in its own way.

Hey Episcopal(Anglican) priest here,

A major component of Christian community is how it helps us grow toward holiness despite it rarely ever really being exactly the community we would choose for ourselves. This is why the founder of Western Monasticism, St. Benedict, taught that stability of life was such an important component of the monastic way of life. Otherwise the monks may find themselves drifting from community to community as soon as things start to get challenging.

Bonhoeffer, a German Lutheran theologian who was killed in a concentration camp for his resistance of the Nazis warns fellow Christians about being too attached to our ideal of community to the detriment of the actual community that is before us.

Quote from: Bonhoeffer in Life Together
Those who love their dream of a Christian community more than they love the Christian community itself become destroyers of that Christian community even though their personal intentions may be ever so honest, earnest, and sacrificial.

So what should you do to find the community to join? My suggestion is that you keep in mind that Christian community is fundamentally a gift from God and so pray to God for discernment in finding where he wants you to be and let go of your need to find the perfect community.

sherr

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #145 on: August 20, 2019, 09:58:12 PM »
Hey Episcopal(Anglican) priest here,

Hey @VexedCoffee, I don't have much to say in response to your actual post but I wanted to thank you for "outing yourself" as a priest. I am not Episcopalian, but I have a deep and abiding respect for the intellectualism that I have observed in Episcopals. N.T. Write is one of my favorite theological writers. I'm sorry your plans of being a geologist didn't work out, but hopefully you're on to bigger and better things now.

elliha

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #146 on: August 21, 2019, 03:18:54 AM »
I am Christian and member of the Church of Sweden, a Lutheran church. I am not sure if I identify as a "Lutheran" though, maybe, maybe not so I prefer Christian over that because I know I am a Christian. I was also confirmed as an adult, at age 36, and the experience was very strong and meaningful to me. I am a church warden (used to be very prestigious but is now more being a host/helper to the priest at service) and I regularly go to church. I pray daily and religion and theology is important to me. I give regularly and generously to the church and other organizations that help people and this is important to me so it is part of my necessary spending. I don't keep exact percentages though so I don't say I tithe because I don't know the exact numbers and there are probably years I have given less and others where I have given more. I do also give direct support to people sometimes which count in the giving category but I am not sure if that constitutes tithing.

I agree with the comments about mustachianism taken to an extreme and that not being compatible with Christianity because to me that does sometimes seem like greed and failing to be generous. On the other hand, frugality, being appreciative of the things you have rather than the things you don't have, fixing stuff, giving away stuff you don't need etc. seems to connect well with Christianity. I also don't think that saving and building a working financial situation is against Christianity but I do see that this can become very focused on yourself and your family rather than your brothers and sisters in the world at large.

As to giving to non-Christians. When it comes to basic needs I would never consider that person's religion, we all need food, shelter, clothes etc and I would not think it was Christian to do anything else. That does not mean I think it is wrong to support things that are relevant mostly to Christians. For example, when the roof of the Church of my congregation's "friendship-congregation" in Tanzania was destroyed we took collections for them to be able to fix the roof fast which would be something that would be mostly relevant for the Christians of that village. I see no fault in that. Similarly, my church supports colleges for priests and deacons in other countries and other more specific Christian needs but also schools, adult education, work projects, health care etc that is for everyone and often has an explicit statement to help people regardless of their religion. God made every human and basic needs need to be met regardless of religion. I also think that we should not show hostility towards people of another faith and if they are interested in Christianity we should try to help them understand it and if they wish to convert help them with that. Very aggressive conversion attempts seem to be very counterproductive and border on hostility.


Imma

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #147 on: August 21, 2019, 03:42:06 AM »
Thanks everyone for your kind replies! And @shelivesthedream funny you mentioned Quakers. They are not active in my country but I was recently in your country in an area where they are very active and visible and I was really inspired by them.

In my area most churches are Catholic, I was raised Catholic as well. While I attend Mass irregularly and the whole rite resonates with me on a very deep level, I don't agree with the Catholic church on many things from a theological point of view. I don't think I can get over those. There are protestant churches as well, but historically the Netherlands is very strictly Calvinist and I also don't think I could ever become a full member of a Calvinist church or a non-denominational protestant church that accepts the Synod of Dordt. That leaves very few options in my country. Arminian is considered an insult in most churches.

 I am positive towards one church (Remonstrant) but I'm not sure I'm ready to become a formal member. That's something they don't require bt Another church I'm positive about is the mennonite church (which is nothing like American Old Order mennonites) who actually share a building with the Remonstrant church in my town. 

What I mean by legalistic is that many churches seem to have very strict conventions about anything that has to do with outward appearance and lifestyle and I feel deeply uncomfortable with that. If you don't conform completely you can actually be called to appear in front of the Church board, like some sort of trial, for things that I would consider very minor transgressions. It's also not something I'm familiar with from the Catholic church, of course everyone tried to look semi-decent but I can't remember anyone ever being called out for their appearance. I understand churches must have rules and that once you are a member you need to accept those rules, but that's why I'm careful about joining any church. Of course this varies from church to church but I was quite surprised that many non-orthodox churches have very strict written and unwritten rules. I knew that about orthodox churches - a friend of mine actually lives next to an orthodox Calvinist church and is verbally abused about her unnatural hair colour all the time. That's just really very wrong.

Tass

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #148 on: August 21, 2019, 08:49:36 AM »
@VexedCoffee, your comment has been useful for me to ponder. Thanks.

thesis

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Re: Christians - how does your faith affect your Mustachianism?
« Reply #149 on: August 21, 2019, 08:51:35 AM »
Cool thread, good perspectives here :)

It all started with Dave Ramsey for me, getting out of debt and whatnot, so personal finance has interested me for a very long time. When I found MMM, everything really clicked inside and I realized it all just made so much sense. I had seen all these people living way above their means who really struggled in the recession, and I'm like, "You totally brought this upon yourself...", such a slap in the face to the people in the world who struggle because of things outside of their control.

I realized I wanted the freedom that money can bring, and on my path to FI I learned all the little pockets of waste in my life. Having amassed the stache I have, I have become very aware of just how loaded and financially blessed I've been. It gives me greater incentive to give, I believe, but also to want to help others learn how to handle money because it's so important. It really has the power to change generations. And really it was just a matter of taking what I was earning and wasting significantly less of it. Some people would call that storing up barns of grain, I call it being less stupid, less wasteful, and more strategic :). Besides, with my income, savings rate, and current stache, I could easily seed significant sums of money to others in the event of a major economic downturn. I don't want that to happen, but the realization that I could is very encouraging to me on this journey. I don't believe I've been put in this position to just hoard all my money. Our blessings are for us just as they are also for those around us.

(I could think of several other things to write here, but many have already been said. This is my $0.02 contribution :) )