Cheap guy

[Mr Chin Stubble]

I know I shouldn't care what other people think but, I have to admit cheap, older women make me feel bad and I'm sort of taken aback by them. So does that mean there are those who feel the same way about me?!

E.g. A woman well into her 60s, noticeably over weight and pushy sits next to me on the bus, even though there wasn't really a lot of room will exclaiming: "Can I sit, can i sit?!". And that would have been OK. Incidentally, the other thing is -- it's a bus ride through a pretty rough neighborhood. I'm sure most in my socio-economic position would drive and pay for parking. But I refuse and I guess so does she. Anyway, after being smooshed in for about 20 min. or so, I decide I can't take it and think it more comfortable to stand the rest of the ride. And all that's OK. She is reading a book when I feel a kick. I just stare at her finally she says sorry and I mutter something under my breath ... I can't remember now...

Anyway, I am getting ready to get off the bus and I noticed my pants where she kicked me have like a dusty substance. I brush them off and I notice her shoes are dusty and generally in poor condition. I'm kind of OK with all this except it got me wondering about my cheapness and how others perceive it (see my other thread on my shoes for more.) I can remember only 3 people with such bad shoes -- one of which was a doctor of all things and this former work colleague who used to put newspaper in his shoes and generally was frugal with money, but also didn't make a lot and was happy not to deal with the stress. The other shoes were my old ones (I've since thrown out old shoes and it feels really good).

I also remember being in a starbucks ( ideally dislike the place but it was there and I was early to work meeting) and a similar sort of woman with a cheap bag purse like thing comes in and starts reading all the newspapers and doesn't buy anything.

Anyway, sorry for the long winded OP, but the point is when you are taken aback by someone's cheapness -- I can't help but wonder when others are taken aback by mine.

And it has happened. When a young lady working at a hotel front desk--when I was vacationing in Canada--looked me up and down when I mentioned I would rather take a bus to an airport than pay 60 dollars for a cab (although at the time I thought it was a shuttle bus,  not a Buffalo NY public bus. Although the ride wasn't bad at all. I also kept wearing a well worn tie that I love and, was really beginning to show signs of wear, that was noticed by a lady who was a night club employee that I was talking to during a happy hour event, had a similar reaction. I mean I know I'm not supposed to care but ... it seems like it's hard for frugality not to go into cheapness sometimes...I don't know.

[Penny McSave]

I wouldn't worry too much about it unless it's someone that has a direct impact on your finances (boss, recruiter, etc.). Everyday people's judgment of me has no impact on how I view myself, I also try to make a conscious effort not to judge others to harshly because you never know their whole story. Focus on yourself and how you make yourself feel, don't give that control to others. Could it be that you were already feeling bad those days and your perceived judgments confirmed those feelings?

[Reynolds531]

Sheldon?

[Mr Chin Stubble]

I wouldn't worry too much about it unless it's someone that has a direct impact on your finances (boss, recruiter, etc.). Everyday people's judgment of me has no impact on how I view myself, I also try to make a conscious effort not to judge others to harshly because you never know their whole story. Focus on yourself and how you make yourself feel, don't give that control to others. Could it be that you were already feeling bad those days and your perceived judgments confirmed those feelings?

Yeah ok but do you have girlfriend? I guess that sorta dovetails into your finance theory of not worrying about what others think unless it impacts your bottom line

Then again a scruffy pair of shoes isn't really indicative of skill and ability as my dr proves. Although the stereotype would be more of the idle work colleague and hippy lady on the bus.

Ultimately though I guess your opinion should matter more and external things should not matter.

And tonanswer your question my mood was not bad those days.

[Penny McSave]

The point I was trying to make is that certain people's opinions DO matter and we should be cognizant of those and not give too much weight to other's. I care what my boss thinks because I am representing a company. I don't really care what a complete stranger thinks of me. How I felt about myself used to affect how I imagined others thought about me but I realized I was only projecting what I know about myself and couldn't possibly know what someone else was thinking. I try to be mindful of this. I read an article recently that said we think people are thinking about us more often than they actually are. Don't worry if you think someone viewed you as being cheap, maybe they did for a few moments but they likely won't remember it as long as you will. Unless you value that person's opinion then who cares?

And yes, I am married. :)

[Cranky]

I'm not really clear about how you are deciding that someone is "cheap" rather than "broke" or "doesn't care about clothes" or "would rather wear her most comfortable pair of shoes". And what does her age or weight have to do with anything in that equation?

I will agree that if you judge people by their appearances, you can't really complain if people judge you by appearances.

[Mr Chin Stubble]

I'm not really clear about how you are deciding that someone is "cheap" rather than "broke" or "doesn't care about clothes" or "would rather wear her most comfortable pair of shoes". And what does her age or weight have to do with anything in that equation?

I will agree that if you judge people by their appearances, you can't really complain if people judge you by appearances.

Cheap vs broke. I guess I got that from talking to high maintenance women. They often never bother to make the distinction. You have a point though: is a guy really cheap if he has no money.

But I think in this case I'm using deductive reasoning to draw the cheap conclusion. I mean when I ride a bus to work through a dangerous neighborhood; it is really being frugal or maybe cheap in my case. But I'm 6-1", work out, have a car, have been in fist fights as a younger man. But when an older woman does it -- I think it's cheap since it is not as safe or not safe all together. As for the Starbucks woman, I also call it cheap since the Starbucks was located near my company's HQ office in a very affluent new york city area, and, at 7 AM in casual clothes was obviously doing a walk about in her own nabe.

Some of the details of age serve to paint a picture like when newspaper articles list an age of the person they are writing about to give the reader more perspective. The weight issue is relevant because she tried to fit in a spot that was not a good fit and resulted in an uncomfortable ride... Although I have noticed that women in their 60s do start caring a lot less about clothes than women in their 20 especially, but even women in the 30s and 40s.

[Zikoris]

As a 30 year old, I can't really speak for older women, but my first thoughts are somewhat different when I see someone who looks... raggedy, I guess? Depending on the context, I tend to assume they're either:

a) down on their luck - unemployed, homeless, etc,
b) a frugal hippie like myself, or
c) a scatterbrained scientist or artist type who focuses solely on their passion/work at the expense of stuff like shoes or clothes.

I wouldn't see any of them as necessarily negative, unless the person stunk or something. In the dating context, it wouldn't be an issue unless the person was also kind of unkempt - messy hair, unshaven, dirty, etc. BUT, this is coming from a no-makeup/nails/whatever vegan hippie, who wears stuff until it's holey, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Penny McSave]

So, is this boiling down to how a potential mate sees you and vice versa?

[Laura33]

I'm not really clear about how you are deciding that someone is "cheap" rather than "broke" or "doesn't care about clothes" or "would rather wear her most comfortable pair of shoes". And what does her age or weight have to do with anything in that equation?

I will agree that if you judge people by their appearances, you can't really complain if people judge you by appearances.

Cheap vs broke. I guess I got that from talking to high maintenance women. They often never bother to make the distinction. You have a point though: is a guy really cheap if he has no money.

But I think in this case I'm using deductive reasoning to draw the cheap conclusion. I mean when I ride a bus to work through a dangerous neighborhood; it is really being frugal or maybe cheap in my case. But I'm 6-1", work out, have a car, have been in fist fights as a younger man. But when an older woman does it -- I think it's cheap since it is not as safe or not safe all together. As for the Starbucks woman, I also call it cheap since the Starbucks was located near my company's HQ office in a very affluent new york city area, and, at 7 AM in casual clothes was obviously doing a walk about in her own nabe.

Some of the details of age and weight aren't really relevant to the main point but just serve to paint a picture. Although I have noticed that women in their 60s do start caring a lot less about clothes than women in their 20 especially, but even women in the 30s and 40s.

Ok, I am not following your deductive reasoning here.  To me, all of those things you point out say the overweight older lady is broke, not cheap.  Why would you assume that someone so much more vulnerable than you would make such a risky decision and wear old shoes if she had another choice?

Your choice of details paints a picture, for sure.  Your disdain for poor, older, overweight women who don't live up to your standards for behavior and presentation comes through loud and clear.

[accolay]

Easiest way to diffuse the situation with others is to be the first to mention that you're cheap. They'll just agree with you and everything else can move on. Just make sure you're being cheap for when it matters vs. just screwing yourself in the long run.

As far as people's impressions of you? Most of those people that will look you up and down you'll never see again and/or don't have an impact on your life, so who cares? You'll be, as they say, laughing all the way to the bank.

[WildJager]

If you're concerned that other people are viewing you negatively to the point you're feeling insecure, perhaps that's a sign you'd be more content if you cleaned up whatever was bothering you.  If it's superficial like a ragged wardrobe, it might actually be time to spruce it up a bit.  As others here have mentioned, most people probably don't care.  But if it's enough of a concern to disrupt your serenity, easy enough fix.

For non superficial but socially obscure frugal choices (like taking the bus or riding a bike instead of taking a car) there's nothing you can do but embrace the feeling.  You're making those choices for a positive reason, and if others don't understand it's not your job to help them see the light.  Just hold yourself with dignity and carry on.

After all that said, I don't care what others think of me.  I do what I do so that I maintain self respect.  Those who appreciate me for who I am (rather than a facade) are worth having in my life.

[Mr Chin Stubble]

If you're concerned that other people are viewing you negatively to the point you're feeling insecure, perhaps that's a sign you'd be more content if you cleaned up whatever was bothering you.  If it's superficial like a ragged wardrobe, it might actually be time to spruce it up a bit.  As others here have mentioned, most people probably don't care.  But if it's enough of a concern to disrupt your serenity, easy enough fix.

For non superficial but socially obscure frugal choices (like taking the bus or riding a bike instead of taking a car) there's nothing you can do but embrace the feeling.  You're making those choices for a positive reason, and if others don't understand it's not your job to help them see the light.  Just hold yourself with dignity and carry on.

After all that said, I don't care what others think of me.  I do what I do so that I maintain self respect.  Those who appreciate me for who I am (rather than a facade) are worth having in my life.

Yeah but how far can you go with this sort of no sex appeal relativism?

Let us use the case of my old work colleague at the risk of offending others on the board who sympathize with an older woman who kicks people, leaves dust on someone else's pants and doesn't bother to say a "sorry" until made to say it.

Said work colleague put newspaper in his shoes to extend the life of them / was pretty frugal. He was also really smart, went to an ivy league school and was content to pull in a lower salary because he didn't want to deal with working hard basically.  And all in all he pulls a pretty low salary in a high cost of living. People who do this -- they are happy at least that is the reason they claim for doing this, but does this person really sound like someone you would like to have a beer with ?

[swick]

If you're concerned that other people are viewing you negatively to the point you're feeling insecure, perhaps that's a sign you'd be more content if you cleaned up whatever was bothering you.  If it's superficial like a ragged wardrobe, it might actually be time to spruce it up a bit.  As others here have mentioned, most people probably don't care.  But if it's enough of a concern to disrupt your serenity, easy enough fix.

For non superficial but socially obscure frugal choices (like taking the bus or riding a bike instead of taking a car) there's nothing you can do but embrace the feeling.  You're making those choices for a positive reason, and if others don't understand it's not your job to help them see the light.  Just hold yourself with dignity and carry on.

After all that said, I don't care what others think of me.  I do what I do so that I maintain self respect.  Those who appreciate me for who I am (rather than a facade) are worth having in my life.

Yeah but how far can you go with this sort of no sex appeal relativism?

Let us use the case of my old work colleague at the risk of offending others on the board who sympathize with an older woman who kicks people, leaves dust on someone else's pants and doesn't bother to say a "sorry" until made to say it.

Said work colleague put newspaper in his shoes to extend the life of them / was pretty frugal. He was also really smart, went to an ivy league school and was content to pull in a lower salary because he didn't want to deal with working hard basically.  And all in all he pulls a pretty low salary in a high cost of living. People who do this -- they are happy at least that is the reason they claim for doing this, but does this person really sound like someone you would like to have a beer with ?

yeah, it sounds like someone I'd have a beer with.  I'm not sure you are really helping your case...

[Mr Chin Stubble]

If you're concerned that other people are viewing you negatively to the point you're feeling insecure, perhaps that's a sign you'd be more content if you cleaned up whatever was bothering you.  If it's superficial like a ragged wardrobe, it might actually be time to spruce it up a bit.  As others here have mentioned, most people probably don't care.  But if it's enough of a concern to disrupt your serenity, easy enough fix.

For non superficial but socially obscure frugal choices (like taking the bus or riding a bike instead of taking a car) there's nothing you can do but embrace the feeling.  You're making those choices for a positive reason, and if others don't understand it's not your job to help them see the light.  Just hold yourself with dignity and carry on.

After all that said, I don't care what others think of me.  I do what I do so that I maintain self respect.  Those who appreciate me for who I am (rather than a facade) are worth having in my life.

Yeah but how far can you go with this sort of no sex appeal relativism?

Let us use the case of my old work colleague at the risk of offending others on the board who sympathize with an older woman who kicks people, leaves dust on someone else's pants and doesn't bother to say a "sorry" until made to say it.

Said work colleague put newspaper in his shoes to extend the life of them / was pretty frugal. He was also really smart, went to an ivy league school and was content to pull in a lower salary because he didn't want to deal with working hard basically.  And all in all he pulls a pretty low salary in a high cost of living. People who do this -- they are happy at least that is the reason they claim for doing this, but does this person really sound like someone you would like to have a beer with ?

yeah, it sounds like someone I'd have a beer with.  I'm not sure you are really helping your case...

I agree as I was writing it I realized some of the more unsavory elements of this individual weren't obvious from what I wrote.  I guess it is sort of guilt by association

But I think we're going back to our whole cheap vs broke dichotomy or other subtlties. You're failing to see the forest for the trees. While an unkempt look is more forgivable  coming from a poor person; it isn't really a situation that anyone really aspires to be in or considers admirable except maybe a buddhist monk or something . And furthermore an unkempt look from one who is a cheapskate and/or deliberate under-achiever is more interesting it isn't really all that admirable either; if the look matches the actions of the individuals. That is not to say that it does always. But I think in these 2 instances it does.

[ysette9]

I'm left sort of aghast at this whole thread. Why do you care? Why relevance does it have on your life how some random person on the street dresses or behaves? To be lint, I think you would be happier if you just minded your own business.

[Mr Chin Stubble]

I'm left sort of aghast at this whole thread. Why do you care? Why relevance does it have on your life how some random person on the street dresses or behaves? To be lint, I think you would be happier if you just minded your own business.

Where did you get that I really cared about others dress or that it really bothered me? I always said "And that was ok .... And that was OK."

I only cared insofar as others saw those kinds of things in me. I liken it to the women who go through my garbage on trash day to collect my recycling for the 5 cents. It's like "yeah OK" but it doesn't mean I want to ask them out on a date because of it. Although if she looked OK in a pair of jean shorts all is forgiven. I have a feeling though for most women it would be a deal breaker not matter how good the guy looked.   

[Cranky]

If you're concerned that other people are viewing you negatively to the point you're feeling insecure, perhaps that's a sign you'd be more content if you cleaned up whatever was bothering you.  If it's superficial like a ragged wardrobe, it might actually be time to spruce it up a bit.  As others here have mentioned, most people probably don't care.  But if it's enough of a concern to disrupt your serenity, easy enough fix.

For non superficial but socially obscure frugal choices (like taking the bus or riding a bike instead of taking a car) there's nothing you can do but embrace the feeling.  You're making those choices for a positive reason, and if others don't understand it's not your job to help them see the light.  Just hold yourself with dignity and carry on.

After all that said, I don't care what others think of me.  I do what I do so that I maintain self respect.  Those who appreciate me for who I am (rather than a facade) are worth having in my life.

Yeah but how far can you go with this sort of no sex appeal relativism?

Let us use the case of my old work colleague at the risk of offending others on the board who sympathize with an older woman who kicks people, leaves dust on someone else's pants and doesn't bother to say a "sorry" until made to say it.

Said work colleague put newspaper in his shoes to extend the life of them / was pretty frugal. He was also really smart, went to an ivy league school and was content to pull in a lower salary because he didn't want to deal with working hard basically.  And all in all he pulls a pretty low salary in a high cost of living. People who do this -- they are happy at least that is the reason they claim for doing this, but does this person really sound like someone you would like to have a beer with ?

Yes? This just confuses me more. When I was dating - which admittedly has been a long time ago - I didn't find guys sexy because of their clothes, but because they were kind, hardworking, thrifty, interesting, had high ideals... The guy I married (and am still married to 40 years later) had exactly a week's worth of clothes, 1 pair of shoes, no winter coat, and a car that barely ran. He was, and is, just a terrific guy. No regrets there.

His shoes still wear out before he gets around to replacing them.

But if that's a dealbreaker for *you* then yes, you'll have to think about how you present yourself.

[Mr Chin Stubble]

What are you confused about ?

The implication is that I'm a busy body and am bothered by people in the bus who wear disheveled clothes or do other cheapskate things. It doesn't bother me but perhaps maybe not coincidentally their actions are also nothing to write home about. But I think the exception is with women I date.... yeah what I'm attracted to in that sense is a little different than what bugs me in a Starbucks; on the bus to work; or not buying anything in a Starbucks and just reading their newspapers.

[WildJager]

I'm left sort of aghast at this whole thread. Why do you care? Why relevance does it have on your life how some random person on the street dresses or behaves? To be lint, I think you would be happier if you just minded your own business.

Where did you get that I really cared about others dress or that it really bothered me? I always said "And that was ok .... And that was OK."

I only cared insofar as others saw those kinds of things in me. I liken it to the women who go through my garbage on trash day to collect my recycling for the 5 cents. It's like "yeah OK" but it doesn't mean I want to ask them out on a date because of it. Although if she looked OK in a pair of jean shorts all is forgiven. I have a feeling though for most women it would be a deal breaker not matter how good the guy looked.   

I think that is what's confusing people.  It's pretty obvious that you do care about attire, while claiming you don't.  Which is fine, it's human nature for a lot of people.  So you're projecting that perception on other potential mates (which is a valid concern).

I think what some people are trying to say is that they really don't care.  They're more interested in interesting personalities.  Additionally, someone with a perceived character flaw may not be forgiven just because they can carry themselves well when they dress up nice.

But I hear you.  I'm frugal, but I try to wear decent attire that has a classic look (as in, I don't follow fashion trends so I can wear old clothes just fine).  I also appreciate when my wife dresses nice.

Recognize what you truly care about and follow those values so you don't have to be apologetic. 

[Mr Chin Stubble]

Where does it say anything about me caring about attire? Although I will say a dressed up look will get my attention more than no make up plain Jane

You are really reading way too much into the jeans shorts thing, and I can't believe you are reading that literally like I really care about the quality of ones jeans shorts(like that is getting dressed up or something).

Did I really have to say something like all is forgiven for a side hustle like rummaging through my recycling trash can depending on how she looked nude sunbathing on a roof deck?

[WildJager]

Yeahhh... So I was just trying to use the shorts as an allusion for looks to avoid calling you shallow, but you popped that bubble for me.

This thread went from worrying about what others think about your frugal nature and looks (advice generally said don't worry about what others think) and you drove it towards how it's impossible to find mate if you look frugal (or cheap for what you really are intending).  While others tried to say, "No, looks are a secondary priority for me" you ignored them and said women are allowed to be quarky as long as they look good, but for men that's impossible.

No, looks aren't everything.  Yes, I'd have a beer with a dude who stuffs newspaper into his old shoes to help them last longer.  He'd probably at least have an interesting perspective on life.  No, I don't reject people as individuals just because they look different than my myopic view on proper looks and attire.

[coppertop]

I have noticed that women in their 60s do start caring a lot less about clothes than women in their 20 especially, but even women in the 30s and 40s

Ummm, excuse me?  61 years old and quite well dressed, and on a budget, I might add.   I work in an office full of older women, both attorneys and staff, and all of the women over 60 dress quite well.  Be careful of making generalizations.

[scantee]

Nice troll job you've got going on here, Mr. Chin Stubble.

[coppertop]

Wow.  I work in a law office.  There is an 'old money' attorney here - and I am talking about money that goes back to the 1800s.  He drives a car that looks like a rolling dumpster.  His clothing is nice, because his wife buys it for him - monogrammed cuffs and all.  But he has road salt marks on his slacks and he doesn't care a whit.  He'll walk around all day in his duck boots with his business suit because he is quite aware of who he is, where he came from, and he doesn't need to impress anyone.  Another example would be a relative's late father, who was an immigrant in the 19-teens.  He arrived here with nothing, but through hard work and great decisions, became wealthy.  However, to see him on the street, you'd have thought he was an old bum.  Cut off sleeves on his plaid shirts; droopy trousers; worn-out work shoes.  He died with an estate of more than twelve million dollars.  Any car salesman who dismissed him as a customer based on appearance would have done himself out of a great commission.

[swick]

OP, I think you have some growing up to do - not meant as an insult, we all do.

What stands out for me, other than the sweeping generalizations you tend to make about other folks is your use of "OK"   It's really not "OK" for you is it? Or you wouldn't be worried about it, thinking about it, or creating narratives in your head.

You have certain facts available,  what happen in your transactions with specific people. EVERYTHING ELSE is the narrative, context, and assumptions YOU are providing. This says more about you and your views, than it does about them.

We all do it, we all makeup stories and narratives to fill in the gaps, or to help us process something, but most of the time, it isn't doing us any favours.

[Mr Chin Stubble]

Yeahhh... So I was just trying to use the shorts as an allusion for looks to avoid calling you shallow, but you popped that bubble for me.

This thread went from worrying about what others think about your frugal nature and looks (advice generally said don't worry about what others think) and you drove it towards how it's impossible to find mate if you look frugal (or cheap for what you really are intending).  While others tried to say, "No, looks are a secondary priority for me" you ignored them and said women are allowed to be quarky as long as they look good, but for men that's impossible.

No, looks aren't everything.  Yes, I'd have a beer with a dude who stuffs newspaper into his old shoes to help them last longer.  He'd probably at least have an interesting perspective on life.  No, I don't reject people as individuals just because they look different than my myopic view on proper looks and attire.

You're just making up stuff at this point. It's bad enough when you do it about things I wrote but, now you're doing it about things you supposedly wrote(you never mentioned anything about shorts as an allusion or otherwise). I recall seeing one message about what you described. I never insulted you I'd appreciate if you showed me the same courtesy ... if you want to waste time drinking a beer with someone who most would regard as a total loser be my guest(and it's not because of his shoes..but because he could be doing much better but chooses to do less and make up the difference by stuffing newspapers in his shoes). I was going to call you a loser but I guess you already popped that bubble for me.

[Mr Chin Stubble]

OP, I think you have some growing up to do - not meant as an insult, we all do.

What stands out for me, other than the sweeping generalizations you tend to make about other folks is your use of "OK"   It's really not "OK" for you is it? Or you wouldn't be worried about it, thinking about it, or creating narratives in your head.

You have certain facts available,  what happen in your transactions with specific people. EVERYTHING ELSE is the narrative, context, and assumptions YOU are providing. This says more about you and your views, than it does about them.

We all do it, we all makeup stories and narratives to fill in the gaps, or to help us process something, but most of the time, it isn't doing us any favours.

I don't know what you're talking about. I don't think being overweight is the best thing in the world. But i especially have a problem if you squish me in the bus because of it.

And I don't think dusty shoes are the greatest either but especially if you kick me with them and make my shoes dusty. Just like I don't think a pushy person who feels entitled to a bus seat isn't that great either. Just like someone who doesn't say "sorry" after stepping on your foot or whatever. Yes I'm mentioning these things... that doesn't mean it's because I think it's the end of the world or that I'm all night thinking about them.

[ysette9]

I know I shouldn't care what other people think but, I have to admit cheap, older women make me feel bad and I'm sort of taken aback by them. So does that mean there are those who feel the same way about me?!

You obviously care about this by 1) the fact that you say in the first sentence of your post that you do care, and 2) the fact that you post, and continue to post, about the subject online. I wonder, as others have touched upon, whether you need to do a little self-reflecting on your own appearance and whether you are really comfortable with the choices you have made. You seem to simultaneously value a clean, put-together look while valuing the frugality message that not dressing well might convey. Frankly, your willingness to call out a specific sub-set of population ("cheap", older, women, at one point you mentioned overweight) seems unnecessarily mean and petty.

In short, you are wondering whether people here share your same concern for people out in public who are dressed "cheaply". I think you have seen that people on this thread don't share your concern. There isn't anything wrong with that one way or the other though and we are all entitled to have opinions on the subject (or not, as the case may be). I recommend being polite and respectful to everyone regardless of appearance until they have done something to warrant a different approach (call you names, steal your wallet, or so forth). 

[Slee_stack]

Yeahhh... So I was just trying to use the shorts as an allusion for looks to avoid calling you shallow, but you popped that bubble for me.

This thread went from worrying about what others think about your frugal nature and looks (advice generally said don't worry about what others think) and you drove it towards how it's impossible to find mate if you look frugal (or cheap for what you really are intending).  While others tried to say, "No, looks are a secondary priority for me" you ignored them and said women are allowed to be quarky as long as they look good, but for men that's impossible.

No, looks aren't everything.  Yes, I'd have a beer with a dude who stuffs newspaper into his old shoes to help them last longer.  He'd probably at least have an interesting perspective on life.  No, I don't reject people as individuals just because they look different than my myopic view on proper looks and attire.

You're just making up stuff at this point. It's bad enough when you do it about things I wrote but, now you're doing it about things you supposedly wrote(you never mentioned anything about shorts as an allusion or otherwise). I recall seeing one message about what you described. I never insulted you I'd appreciate if you showed me the same courtesy ... if you want to waste time drinking a beer with someone who most would regard as a total loser be my guest. I was going to call you a loser but I guess you already popped that bubble for me.

The good news is that the OP needn't worry that his choice in attire is influencing his experiences at all.  The bad news is that there just might be larger issues afoot.

[Dee18]

Do cheap, older men make you fell bad?  Or just women?

[mm1970]

I have noticed that women in their 60s do start caring a lot less about clothes than women in their 20 especially, but even women in the 30s and 40s

Ummm, excuse me?  61 years old and quite well dressed, and on a budget, I might add.   I work in an office full of older women, both attorneys and staff, and all of the women over 60 dress quite well.  Be careful of making generalizations.

I was going to say "excuse me, but I'm in my 40s and I don't care much about clothing at all, and honestly didn't care in my 20s either".

I mean, they are clean.  They don't have holes.

[ysette9]

I was going to say "excuse me, but I'm in my 40s and I don't care much about clothing at all, and honestly didn't care in my 20s either".

We went to look at a used car this past weekend and purposefully drove our older car there and wore more casual clothes, so the prospective seller wouldn't assume we were made of money when it came to negotiating. My husband just started working for a company headed by a guy who is well known for wearing hoodies to work and as a welcome package, they shipped him a company hoodie. I think we all recognize by now that making assumptions based on someone's appearance can lead us drastically awry.

[Penny McSave]

You're just making up stuff at this point. It's bad enough when you do it about things I wrote but, now you're doing it about things you supposedly wrote(you never mentioned anything about shorts as an allusion or otherwise). I recall seeing one message about what you described. I never insulted you I'd appreciate if you showed me the same courtesy ... if you want to waste time drinking a beer with someone who most would regard as a total loser be my guest. I was going to call you a loser but I guess you already popped that bubble for me.

Who cares what "most people" think? Sounds like exactly the type of person I'd like to sit and have a real conversation with; you know, the kind that that doesn't involve petty bullshit. Personally, I think the one wasting their time is you. Get over appearances and get to know people for who they are, you might learn something valuable, like how to be content with enough.

[Mr Chin Stubble]

Do cheap, older men make you fell bad?  Or just women?

No not really. Old guys wearing old clothes look really sharp since they're wearing what appear to be retro clothes(although I have a suspicion they just bought them new at the mall in like 70s or whatever). And further I never see them reading newspapers for free at a Starbucks even though they live in a 2 million dollar apt.

[inline five]

There is a big difference in being frugal and looking/acting like you are two sheets away from being homeless. We call those people hipsters where I am from and it's generally not a compliment. If you don't care enough about your personal appearance to wear shoes without holes in them or clean clothes in good repair how do you treat the rest of your stuff? We all know the types, house is a mess, no organization, generally dirty/grimy inside, car has so much crap in it you can't even sit down in the passenger seat.

I'm 35 with a NW of just over seven figures but drive a 20+ year old car. But I take really good care of it and it doesn't look junky. Paint is good, interior is decent, etc. I take pride in keeping things well kept. When I go to work my uniform is clean, ironed, shoes are shined, etc. My clothes are from Kohls not name brand stuff but they look decent and well kept.

Many years ago I was the cheap homeless looking guy. It reflected in my self worth and how I felt about myself at the time. Lost a lot of weight, ate better food, took better care of myself and my life has greatly improved. YMMY.

[SmartyCat]

Nice troll job you've got going on here, Mr. Chin Stubble.

Seconded

[WildJager]

I was going to call you a loser but I guess you already popped that bubble for me.

Nailed it.

[Laura33]

Yeahhh... So I was just trying to use the shorts as an allusion for looks to avoid calling you shallow, but you popped that bubble for me.

This thread went from worrying about what others think about your frugal nature and looks (advice generally said don't worry about what others think) and you drove it towards how it's impossible to find mate if you look frugal (or cheap for what you really are intending).  While others tried to say, "No, looks are a secondary priority for me" you ignored them and said women are allowed to be quarky as long as they look good, but for men that's impossible.

No, looks aren't everything.  Yes, I'd have a beer with a dude who stuffs newspaper into his old shoes to help them last longer.  He'd probably at least have an interesting perspective on life.  No, I don't reject people as individuals just because they look different than my myopic view on proper looks and attire.

You're just making up stuff at this point. It's bad enough when you do it about things I wrote but, now you're doing it about things you supposedly wrote(you never mentioned anything about shorts as an allusion or otherwise). I recall seeing one message about what you described. I never insulted you I'd appreciate if you showed me the same courtesy ... if you want to waste time drinking a beer with someone who most would regard as a total loser be my guest(and it's not because of his shoes..but because he could be doing much better but chooses to do less and make up the difference by stuffing newspapers in his shoes). I was going to call you a loser but I guess you already popped that bubble for me.

Dude.  I think you just described/insulted a whole bunch of people on this forum.  It's all about how you define "doing better" and "doing less."

[Mr Chin Stubble]

Sorry I didn't mean it. I didn't think people here were walking around with holes in their shoes to save money

[Slee_stack]

There is a big difference in being frugal and looking/acting like you are two sheets away from being homeless. We call those people hipsters where I am from and it's generally not a compliment. If you don't care enough about your personal appearance to wear shoes without holes in them or clean clothes in good repair how do you treat the rest of your stuff? We all know the types, house is a mess, no organization, generally dirty/grimy inside, car has so much crap in it you can't even sit down in the passenger seat.

I'm 35 with a NW of just over seven figures but drive a 20+ year old car. But I take really good care of it and it doesn't look junky. Paint is good, interior is decent, etc. I take pride in keeping things well kept. When I go to work my uniform is clean, ironed, shoes are shined, etc. My clothes are from Kohls not name brand stuff but they look decent and well kept.

Many years ago I was the cheap homeless looking guy. It reflected in my self worth and how I felt about myself at the time. Lost a lot of weight, ate better food, took better care of myself and my life has greatly improved. YMMY.

Welcome to the forum!  First post to a trainwreck thread?  Only one direction to move in I guess.  ;D.

On a tangent, I'm one of those folks who doesn't care much about personal (or others') clothes.  I do keep them clean and relatively tidy, but I have a few shirts and pants that are just too comfortable not to wear...and they are a bit worn or frayed as a result with a couple...gasp...small holes.  I could make an effort to present better, but...I just don't care.  If a situation demands more care (work, formal event, etc.) then sure, I'll accommodate.

At the same time however, I'm very meticulous in other areas of my life.  Vehicles (car, bike) are kept in very good shape.  Probably unnecessarily so.  I also tend to keep my gadgets (PCs, audio stuff, etc) 'overkept' as well.  These even areas I'm moderate in (laundry, general housecleaning, etc.)  I suppose I could balance some of my extreme behaviors out, but then again....no...I like spending my time and money on certain things over others.

The point goes back to judging people from outward appearances.  Not all outwardly poor people are really poor and not all folks who appear to be slobs are also slobs in every aspect of their life.

Anyway, you seem to be doing well.  You may wish to start a thread on why you are (or aren't) still working, goals, why (or why not) snappier attire has worked out for you, etc. You already inferred you might have had a self-image issue awhile back.   Probably would be a ton more productive thread than this one!

[Altons Bobs]

You apparently care a lot about what others think of you.

[Mr Chin Stubble]

I have explained this so many different ways and I can't believe all anyone got from this was "you're judging people by outward appearances and that is wrong". Or "you are calling people fat and that is wrong".

I stated very clearly that I merely recognize something in others that is "dialed down". It does not bother me. Trust me. But I recognize it. It is merely OK. Not great but not bad either. What I am concerned about is others doing the same for me. And for 99.9% I don't care. But yes for women that I am attracted to--I do care. Yes. I care what women that I am attracted to think. And I have a feeling you do too. And this isn't some narrative in my head. I've noticed they give that same up and down look--2 different occasions--when they recognized something dialed down in me.

May be it's time to put on our big boy pants. Generalizations are just that -- they don't apply all the time. I know that but, at the same time they sometimes do. Furthermore, maybe negligence in outer appearances translates into negligence in other areas of one's life -- such as courtesy to others and politeness like said lady on the bus for instance, with her pushiness and impoliteness.  And if you're older than 25, neat is better than slovenly. But it's your life.

[dreams_and_discoveries]

Personally I was enlightened when I realised how easily some other people were influenced by the clothes I wear......so I could sway them easily with a change of outfit?

I'm going for the mad eccentric IT person look, and I like to think I pull it off well :). Honestly I'm so past caring what people think, comfort is the way forward. Which leads on to I want to be valued for my brain and personality, not my body and material possessions.

[Arktinkerer]

I can't help but read the original post and imagine how different your reaction would be if it was an attractive buxom early 20's woman in ratty cuttoffs and t-top.  I guess my bias is showing.

[Laura33]

I have explained this so many different ways and I can't believe all anyone got from this was "you're judging people by outward appearances and that is wrong". Or "you are calling people fat and that is wrong".

I stated very clearly that I merely recognize something in others that is "dialed down". It does not bother me. Trust me. But I recognize it. It is merely OK. Not great but not bad either. What I am concerned about is others doing the same for me. And for 99.9% I don't care. But yes for women that I am attracted to--I do care. Yes. I care what women that I am attracted to think. And I have a feeling you do too. And this isn't some narrative in my head. I've noticed they give that same up and down look--2 different occasions--when they recognized something dialed down in me.

May be it's time to put on our big boy pants. Generalizations are just that -- they don't apply all the time. I know that but, at the same time they sometimes do. Furthermore, maybe negligence in outer appearances translates into negligence in other areas of one's life -- such as courtesy to others and politeness like said lady on the bus for instance, with her pushiness and impoliteness.  And if you're older than 25, neat is better than slovenly. But it's your life.

OK, I'll bite one more time.

1.  Yes, some people will judge you in the same way that you judge them.  This should not be a surprise.

2.  Therefore, if you are not getting what you want in the dating world, and you worry it's because of how you present yourself, change how you present yourself.

3.  Or say "this is me, and I want someone who shares my values and loves me for me," and stick to your current self.  This can actually be a good way to screen out people who are wrong for you.

E.g., when I was in my first job and had disposable money for the first time, I'd go to the fancy department store dressed like a schlub.  On purpose -- it was a test for the store/salespeople.  The person who treated me kindly and respectfully got my business; the people who looked down their nose at me, I just smiled to myself and moved on. 

4.  When I say "how you present yourself," I mean both appearance and attitude.  Some of the things you have said here come across as very focused on/critical of women's appearance, and just sort of judgy/critical in general.  You may not have intended that at all, and that may not reflect who you really are -- it's hard to tell without a sarcasm/irony font.  But if several people here picked up on the same tone, then maybe the women you are trying to impress do as well.  When you're not getting the results you want, it's worth trying to get out of your own head and observing yourself objectively to see if maybe you're not coming across the way you really want to. 

[Mtngrl]

Granted, when reading this I can only go by the words you use to describe the situation, but I ended up with a different interpretation of the incident with the woman on the bus than you did. Here I am, a woman who has walked a ways to get to the bus stop (those dusty shoes) and I want to sit. I see a vacant seat. If a seat is designed for two people, you are not entitled to have it all to yourself if the bus is full, even if having the woman sitting with you made you feel squished. So then you get up -- I have no doubt she got the message that you didn't want to sit next to the likes of her. It's probably a message she gets all day long -- our society routinely discounts the old, the poor, the overweight and the female. She's reading and crosses her legs and accidentally kicks you. My guess is she didn't even realize she had done so. I really don't see most people wasting time with pettily kicking other people on buses. When I am engrossed in a book I do all kinds of things without realizing it. Then here you are giving her the fish eye again.

If you're going to ride public transportation, you are going to encounter the public. Some of them will be dirty or smell bad or talk too loudly or not look pretty. That is part of living in society. Some of them may brush against you -- accidentally or not. Unless they are assaulting you or picking your pocket it is much easier to get along in the world if you give your fellow human beings the benefit of the doubt. The kick was an accident, not a personal attack. The woman wanted to sit and rest, not purposely make you miserable by squishing you.

And next time a poor, older person gets on the bus, consider getting up and offering them your seat. An easy way to be their hero for the day.

[ysette9]

^^^

Well put

[pbkmaine]

Personally I was enlightened when I realised how easily some other people were influenced by the clothes I wear......so I could sway them easily with a change of outfit?

I'm going for the mad eccentric IT person look, and I like to think I pull it off well :). Honestly I'm so past caring what people think, comfort is the way forward. Which leads on to I want to be valued for my brain and personality, not my body and material possessions.

Yes you can, and it's amazing how much. My normal clothes are shorts and a t-shirt, but I still have my Wall Street clothes in the back of my closet, and when I put them on, I am treated very differently.

[intellectsucks]

When I read your post, this is what I hear: you think the people you used as examples are losers.  You’ve stated multiple times that you don’t think that makes them bad people, and I believe you, but you think LESS of them than others.  For reasons that may or may not be of their own choice, they have become losers.  Hence your concern about other people’s perceptions (if you are doing similar things to those people, then will other people view you as a loser?), and your continuing insistence that you’re not judging them (your post about recognizing people who are “dialed down”).  My advice:
Re-evaluate your mindset regarding success.  Financial success is only one form of success.  You can be successful emotionally, spiritually, socially, civically, philanthropically, familialy(did I just make up a word?), etc.  Spend some time reading about spiritual and emotional growth.  Maybe you will come to the same conclusions you have now, maybe you will not.  Maybe you will decide that someone who “could be doing much better but chooses to do less and make up the difference by stuffing newspapers in his shoes” is merely prioritizing a different form of success than financial.  Maybe this will make you less concerned about your own frugal choices that might seem “dialed down”.
Re-evaluate how you present yourself to the world and when you present certain aspects of yourself.  The thing about the obviously well worn tie really jumped out at me.  I can’t think of many circumstances where it would be appropriate to wear a tie that is worn out.  A tie is part of a professional wardrobe; wearing worn out clothes is not professional.  If you are in a situation that calls for professional attire, it is not a frugal choice to wear clothes or accessories that are obviously worn out.  Such a choice can negatively affect your ability to effectively network or grow your career.  I work in a professional environment where I’m required to wear a suit and tie.  If I show up at a meeting or event wearing a suit that has holes or stains, or a tie where the threads are wearing at the edges, it will be noticed and will negatively affect my future career and income prospects.  Your posts give me the impression that you are aware of this and it is affecting your self confidence.  That doesn’t mean you have to go out and replace your whole wardrobe with brand new Gucci suits, but it does mean that if something is no longer functional, then discard or donate it and replace it.  There is a fantastic post in the “Best posts you saw” thread about someone who really upped their wardrobe and the huge boost it had to their confidence, to the point that other people noticed and pointed it out to him AND his co-workers.  Think of the positive impact that had not only on his mental state and his ability to interact with his coworkers, but on his effectiveness at his job.