Challenging assumptions: cost per mile of driving a car.

[big_owl]

Who in this thread doesn't actually own a car?

[Erica]

That entire month I was keeping track of everything I bought and trying to buy the cheapest possible food, like bulk off-brand peanut butter and stuff, and at the end of it I had spent $227 on food and was like "this seems really high" and then I did the math on the calories and said: "lol."

eat oatmeal

I mean, I do, but if you're saying that as a snappy bazinga it makes no sense because oatmeal costs almost exactly the same per calorie as peanut butter.

What? No it doesn't cost the same. It's about a quarter a bowl for oatmeal. I live in the 10th  most expensive county in California, and even those in higher cost areas pay less for groceries than we do. Maybe try Ebay if you cannot get it cheaper

Oatmeal expands in your stomache. That's why eating it with cinnamon (a superfood) will keep you full until lunch.

[franklin w. dixon]

Who in this thread doesn't actually own a car?

everyone in the world should immediately sell their house and buy a different house while also getting a new job at a different company adjacent to the different house and their spouse must also immediately quit and get a job near the different house (aforementioned) RIGHT THIS SECOND or else you are a PIECE OF SHIT and a LAZY FATASS DIABETIC who SMELLS anyway none of this is relevant to the thread but i must SCREAM IT FROM THE ROOFTOPS because i am BICYCLE MAN

[Erica]

That entire month I was keeping track of everything I bought and trying to buy the cheapest possible food, like bulk off-brand peanut butter and stuff, and at the end of it I had spent $227 on food and was like "this seems really high" and then I did the math on the calories and said: "lol."

eat oatmeal

I mean, I do, but if you're saying that as a snappy bazinga it makes no sense because oatmeal costs almost exactly the same per calorie as peanut butter.

Heres the oatmeal we eat. Bobs Quick Cooking Steel Cut Oats-

The link says it's about 7 cents per ounce. That is .28 cents per bowl

http://costcocouple.com/bobs-red-mill-quick-cooking-steel-cut-oats/

You use half of what you use for the processed oats (like Quaker) and this is heartier.

My hubby thinks he pays $8 for thie 112 ounce/7lb bag from Costco.

But it depends upon what stores you have available, Costco, Sams Club, Grocery Outlet are great places for oatmeal

Now you'll be full when you ride your Huffy :)

[franklin w. dixon]

That entire month I was keeping track of everything I bought and trying to buy the cheapest possible food, like bulk off-brand peanut butter and stuff, and at the end of it I had spent $227 on food and was like "this seems really high" and then I did the math on the calories and said: "lol."

eat oatmeal

I mean, I do, but if you're saying that as a snappy bazinga it makes no sense because oatmeal costs almost exactly the same per calorie as peanut butter.

Heres the oatmeal we eat. Bobs Quick Cooking Steel Cut Oats-

The link says it's about 7 cents per ounce. That is .28 cents per bowl

You use half of what you use for the processed oats (like Quaker) and this is heartier.

My hubby thinks he pays $8 for thie 112 ounce/7lb bag from Costco.

But it depends upon what stores you have available, Costco, Sams Club, Grocery Outlet are great places for oatmeal

Thank you, but I know how much oatmeal costs, which is the same price per calorie as peanut butter, which is what I said.

[Eric]

I know what I said.  I suggested that he COULD move or change jobs or both.  I've moved and changed jobs many times in my life, and at no point did "everything about my life" change.  It's that ridiculous hyperbole that I'm objecting to.  Is riding a bike so extreme that you'll cease to live a life as you know it?  Spontaneously combust if you don't drive a car everyday?  Is everyone so entrenched in their current life that they're terrified of making even a single minor transportation change?  THE HORROR!!!

No, of course it won't make you spontaneously combust.  But now's who's engaging in ridiculous hyperbole? 

At least you can tell I'm not serious.

I mean, changing your home and your work to ride a bike an hour a day is a pretty big change, no?  I mean it's what – 80, 90% of your day, to optimize 5%? 

Is it a pretty big change?  I guess I don't really define myself by where I live or where I work, so it never seemed like a big deal to me. 

If I lived where I couldn't bike commute, I could do one of 4 things:

1) Get a job closer to where I live (could have a side effect of making more money while simultaneously saving on commute costs and making me fitter)
2) Move closer to the job (could have side effect of saving more money on housing, saving on commute costs, and again making me fitter)
3) Do neither and spend a bunch of money on my commute and get fat or have less free time because of non-built in exercise
4) Pretend that I don't spend much money on my commute, post about it on a pro-bike forum, and refuse to acknowledge that I have other options, and then complain that my whole life would change if I didn't drive a car everywhere.

Not all of the above are recommended though.

[franklin w. dixon]

That entire month I was keeping track of everything I bought and trying to buy the cheapest possible food, like bulk off-brand peanut butter and stuff, and at the end of it I had spent $227 on food and was like "this seems really high" and then I did the math on the calories and said: "lol."

eat oatmeal

I mean, I do, but if you're saying that as a snappy bazinga it makes no sense because oatmeal costs almost exactly the same per calorie as peanut butter.

What? No it doesn't cost the same. It's about a quarter a bowl for oatmeal. I live in the 10th  most expensive county in California, and even those in higher cost areas pay less for groceries than we do. Maybe try Ebay if you cannot get it cheaper

Oatmeal expands in your stomache. That's why eating it with cinnamon (a superfood) will keep you full until lunch.

Like most nutritionists I use such measurements as "the bowlful." Well, I'm a little more scientific than that. I get THIRTY LADLES to the BUCKETLOAD and by gum thats the way I like it.

[Erica]

That entire month I was keeping track of everything I bought and trying to buy the cheapest possible food, like bulk off-brand peanut butter and stuff, and at the end of it I had spent $227 on food and was like "this seems really high" and then I did the math on the calories and said: "lol."

eat oatmeal

I mean, I do, but if you're saying that as a snappy bazinga it makes no sense because oatmeal costs almost exactly the same per calorie as peanut butter.

Heres the oatmeal we eat. Bobs Quick Cooking Steel Cut Oats-

The link says it's about 7 cents per ounce. That is .28 cents per bowl

You use half of what you use for the processed oats (like Quaker) and this is heartier.

My hubby thinks he pays $8 for thie 112 ounce/7lb bag from Costco.

But it depends upon what stores you have available, Costco, Sams Club, Grocery Outlet are great places for oatmeal

Thank you, but I know how much oatmeal costs, which is the same price per calorie as peanut butter, which is what I said.

One 1/4 cup of Steel Cut Oats has 170 calories (equivalent to 1/2 cup processed oats)
http://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/generic/peanut-butter

2 tbsp of peanut butter =180 Calories

So it’s 2 tbsp of peanut butter versus 1 bowlful of oatmeal

You cannot afford peanut butter

[franklin w. dixon]

That entire month I was keeping track of everything I bought and trying to buy the cheapest possible food, like bulk off-brand peanut butter and stuff, and at the end of it I had spent $227 on food and was like "this seems really high" and then I did the math on the calories and said: "lol."

eat oatmeal

I mean, I do, but if you're saying that as a snappy bazinga it makes no sense because oatmeal costs almost exactly the same per calorie as peanut butter.

Heres the oatmeal we eat. Bobs Quick Cooking Steel Cut Oats-

The link says it's about 7 cents per ounce. That is .28 cents per bowl

You use half of what you use for the processed oats (like Quaker) and this is heartier.

My hubby thinks he pays $8 for thie 112 ounce/7lb bag from Costco.

But it depends upon what stores you have available, Costco, Sams Club, Grocery Outlet are great places for oatmeal

Thank you, but I know how much oatmeal costs, which is the same price per calorie as peanut butter, which is what I said.

One 1/4 cup of Steel Cut Oats has 170 calories (equivalent to 1/2 cup processed oats)
http://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/generic/peanut-butter

2 tbsp of peanut butter =180 Calories

So it’s 2 tbsp of peanut butter versus 1 bowlful of oatmeal

You cannot afford peanut butter

Actually I have teeny tiny bowls so those two tablespoons are like, nineteen bowls worth. I'm stuffed. Furthermore I live in the most expensive autonomous okrug of Krasnoyarsk so your argument is irrelevent.

[darkadams00]

Here's my anecdote about food costs-- ~9-10 miles each way by bike for several years now. But my monthly food budget (groceries and eating out) hasn't changed in the last 10 years except to decrease when the older son moved out to go to college. And my wife bikes in the summer, and my younger son bikes year-round as well. Before and after biking for three adults did not change our food bill. What's with the heavy appetites? How many extra calories did you actually burn by biking?

Regarding the impact of car ownership on overall financial benefits from biking--by far the biggest contributor. Our move from two cars to one has saved us thousands annually. My son's choice to forego a car during college has saved him thousands annually. And just based on incremental costs alone, many people wouldn't want to trade the lesser amount of incremental dollars for the effort (and yes, sometimes inconvenience) of biking. So that point is taken.

One category regarding vehicles always puts my mind at ease re biking costs--car repairs. A single timing belt change or something similar COSTS AS MUCH AS MY BIKE! A transmission or something similar COSTS AS MUCH AS MY ENTIRE STABLE OF BIKES!! if you're truly driving a car into the ground, you will eventually face some repairs beyond mere fluid/battery changes and tires. My one car will last a LONG time sitting in my garage, getting run weekly but not daily. Protected in a garage instead of baking in the company parking lot. The interior will look better longer, and the paint won't fade as quickly--real reasons many people change cars that are mechanically sound.

As to lifestyle changes--people change jobs, relocate, etc for numerous reasons. I'm an avid utility cyclist, and I wouldn't relocate or change jobs just so I could bike. I would consider biking convenience if any of those choices came around. My wife specifically chose a job a while ago that was closer to home when she was looking to move ahead. When we bought our most recent home, we bought with cycling in mind. As to housing costs, I can buy houses that cost 3 times the cost of my house in bike-unfriendly areas in my town, or I could buy my house and save money on the house and transportation while making that choice. And if you're the type who wants to live in a single house for the next twenty+ years, wouldn't a good housing choice now be best for life optimization if it meant you would derive more utility over the next twenty? We don't even take as much vacation time away since we enjoy where we live and all that we can do. (Partly due to biking but could also be true for folks who live in rural areas).

Those are just a couple responses to points in the thread. One theme has once again shown its head. People who don't bike find little use for biking or concede few points to the benefits of biking, always looking to nitpick over minor details while missing major points. People who bike as much as I do also sometimes make the mistake to think that it's easy, desirable, or financially prudent to change jobs/housing in the short term. Both extremes are pretty narrow-minded. Few from either of these extremes would be able to give an unbiased explanation of the pros/cons to a truly inquisitive person (say, my two sons 3-4 years ago).

[franklin w. dixon]

Here's my anecdote about food costs-- ~9-10 miles each way by bike for several years now. But my monthly food budget (groceries and eating out) hasn't changed in the last 10 years except to decrease when the older son moved out to go to college. And my wife bikes in the summer, and my younger son bikes year-round as well. Before and after biking for three adults did not change our food bill. What's with the heavy appetites? How many extra calories did you actually burn by biking?

Depending on your weight, level of athleticism, and speed, typical bicycling burns anywhere from 500-1200 calories per hour above the basal metabolic rate. So your ~19 mile commute consumes an extra 800-1400 calories compared to doing nothing. I'm not saying it isn't worth it or that people should avoid exercise to save calories, which would be kind of crazy. I'm saying that thermodynamics exist and while I can't peep into your food budget and tell you where the calories are coming from I can promise you that they are there because otherwise your thighs hold the secret to perpetual motion.

[Chris22]

Wow this blew up while I was off watching a movie. The Big Short. You guys would love it.

[beltim]

I mean, changing your home and your work to ride a bike an hour a day is a pretty big change, no?  I mean it's what – 80, 90% of your day, to optimize 5%? 

Is it a pretty big change?  I guess I don't really define myself by where I live or where I work, so it never seemed like a big deal to me. 

I've told many more people where I live and what I do than how I commute.  Your mileage may vary.

[darkadams00]

Here's my anecdote about food costs-- ~9-10 miles each way by bike for several years now. But my monthly food budget (groceries and eating out) hasn't changed in the last 10 years except to decrease when the older son moved out to go to college. And my wife bikes in the summer, and my younger son bikes year-round as well. Before and after biking for three adults did not change our food bill. What's with the heavy appetites? How many extra calories did you actually burn by biking?

Depending on your weight, level of athleticism, and speed, typical bicycling burns anywhere from 500-1200 calories per hour above the basal metabolic rate. So your ~19 mile commute consumes an extra 800-1400 calories compared to doing nothing. I'm not saying it isn't worth it or that people should avoid exercise to save calories, which would be kind of crazy. I'm saying that thermodynamics exist and while I can't peep into your food budget and tell you where the calories are coming from I can promise you that they are there because otherwise your thighs hold the secret to perpetual motion.

My point was that if I'm already practicing healthy living--regular, weekly activity--then why would my food cost change? We were, and it hasn't. Your assumption only holds if we were a lazy, sit-on-our-butts-all-day family and then began to bike. Biking was more of a substitution--biking vs treadmill/gym/basketball. If one speaks of transportation, he talks about choices among different modes of transport. If calories due to biking, then what about the alternatives? If biking raises food costs, it's only because the starting point or point of comparison is zero. Not our case and not expected to be the case for many. Add it in if that would be the case for you.

[Chris22]

I mean, changing your home and your work to ride a bike an hour a day is a pretty big change, no?  I mean it's what – 80, 90% of your day, to optimize 5%? 

Is it a pretty big change?  I guess I don't really define myself by where I live or where I work, so it never seemed like a big deal to me. 

I've told many more people where I live and what I do than how I commute.  Your mileage may vary.

Got nothing to do with "defining" ones self and much more to do with transactional and switching costs, plus the fact that I happen to fucking like my house and neighborhood, hence why I picked it.

[big_owl]

I also have a 1969 Honda CT90 trail bike that I rebuilt a few years back.  It'll barely make 45mph on a flat surface with my 210lbs onboard, but the manual says it gets around 150mpg.  I don't believe that number, but I bet it's up around 100mpg.  Those things can be had for cheaper than a nice bicycle and parts are cheap as well.  If I could figure a way to ride it back and forth to work then I would, but I need a vehicle that travels 65mph to handle the highway between my house and my job, so it's a non-starter. 

[GuitarStv]

Can't we ever discuss anything about driving without it turning into a chorus of "You should change everything about your life so you can ride to work! (or else you're an asshole)"???  Lots of us here have cars and drive cars, not just Chris22. Why can't he have a thread about driving without the giant dogpile. FFS.

Where do you and Chris get this from?  I'm serious.  If you believe that driving a car to work is "everything about your life", then I think you deserve to be challenged on it.

You're joking, right?  Here, let's start with what you've said:

I'll give you a hint on how this would work.  If you're uncomfortable riding a bike with your kid down a Chicago suburb main surface street, then you would choose to live in a location where you could avoid Chicago suburb main surface streets.  Hence the point of:

a move to a location where a car is never needed for one of the commutes could change the cost calculation signficantly.

It's almost like you have some control over where you live!  Imagine that!

and

I'm about to blow your mind.  Ready?  You can change jobs too!

The first quote also includes quote from robartsd, but he is actually addressing the point of the thread (the cost per mile of driving a car).

The real winner, though, is GuitarStv, who chimes in with this ridiculous attempt at mocking:

He can't hear you, he's saving up for the multiple sports cars and beach house that he needs to be able to retire. . .

So, just on this page, it's been suggested that Chris move and change jobs, just to be able to get rid of one car, even though it's pretty clear that he's thought about the trade-offs that such a drastic change would require, and doesn't want to.  It's ludicrous to think that because Chris has decided this, that he must also want multiple sports cars and a beach house.

Oh, and all of this is on a thread that he created that he's asking about the incremental cost per mile of driving.  I completely agree with NoraLenderBee on this one.

Oh, and Chris: I see what you're saying with only calculating the marginal depreciation per mile because you have to have a car anyway, but that's been bugging me and I think I've figured out why.  It doesn't fully take into account that you own your particular car (an Acura?) instead of just "a car."  And while you could say you're always going to have an Acura, that kind of dilutes the point of the calculation.  You could have a cheaper or more expensive car, but that might not show up as a marginal cost in your calculation even though you're clearly driving it instead of something else.

Does that make sense?

I wasn't assuming anything.  In another thread Chris indicated that he could never retire without multiple sports cars, a beach house, and maybe a boat.  Retiring with only a single, less expensive sports car would not be acceptable.

[Tabaxus]

Driving is dichotomous.  Its absolute cost is high, its real cost is cheap.  I mean the ability to travel 60 miles in an hour for under a £10 is phenomenal, compared to what a man on two legs or a bike could do.

However in terms of lifestyle inflation and commuting costs, I do think its high.  Also it is a massive time sink.

You are saying driving is a time sink?  Can you elaborate, I dont follow, or do you mean that commuting is a time sink?
Do you see a car in it self as lifestyle inflation or that it leads to lifestyle inflation? 

The best reasons I have come up with to ride a bike to work vs drive is the reduction of my carbon foot print, and that it can be kind of nice to ride a bike.

Bike commuting is a way to get exercise without needing to schedule other time for the exercise.  If your drive is 30 minutes each way, and your bike commute is 45 minutes . . . you come out ahead because when bike commuting you're getting 1.5 hours of exercise, whereas while driving you're getting 1 hr of frustrating ass time, and then would need to spend 1.5 hrs extra to be in the same kind of shape you would be from the commute.

Add to that the fact that most people who only consider driving as an option will live further away from the places they regularly need to go . . . driving can actually be quite a time sink.  The costs are just hidden.

You must have the worlds worst driving commute or be a biking all star for biking to be 45min versus 30min by car.

My 7 miles on 40mph surface streets takes me ~15 min. Riding would be a less direct route (staying off some of the bigger surface streets) and take at least twice as long for the same distance, maybe 2.5 times to three times. And there's the prep of changing in and out of clothes, shoes, etc.

As you pointed out, some days aren't good for riding due to the weather.  I wouldn't want to get into work sopping wet from rain no matter what my occupation. But you won't be riding long enough... at your 45 minutes.. to get that sweaty? Maybe at first when you're not in shape but otherwise it should be a breeze depending upon weather.

A person could put on thin base layers under work clothes. Roll up their pants. Keep an extra shirt and pants for the rare days clothes get dirty along the way. Remove base layers (because of smell) at work in the bathroom. Use the sink to wash your arm pits really quick. You'd be surprised how clean you can get. If you wear a suit or nicer clothes to work (like I used to when I did public relations & marketing for our County) you can keep all your outfits at work hanging up then change when you get there. Take off your base layers, use the sink water to freshen up. I used to keep a curling iron at work too because the helmet flattened my hair. As you pointed out, some days aren't good for riding due to the weather, at least here in California.

The idea of "freshening up" in the office... at the sink...

I mean, I guess you apparently can get away with that in some professions?  If a partner walked into the restroom and I was "freshening up" by washing my freaking armpits, if I wasn't immediately fired, I would sure as hell be on the way out.

[Chris22]

Can't we ever discuss anything about driving without it turning into a chorus of "You should change everything about your life so you can ride to work! (or else you're an asshole)"???  Lots of us here have cars and drive cars, not just Chris22. Why can't he have a thread about driving without the giant dogpile. FFS.

Where do you and Chris get this from?  I'm serious.  If you believe that driving a car to work is "everything about your life", then I think you deserve to be challenged on it.

You're joking, right?  Here, let's start with what you've said:

I'll give you a hint on how this would work.  If you're uncomfortable riding a bike with your kid down a Chicago suburb main surface street, then you would choose to live in a location where you could avoid Chicago suburb main surface streets.  Hence the point of:

a move to a location where a car is never needed for one of the commutes could change the cost calculation signficantly.

It's almost like you have some control over where you live!  Imagine that!

and

I'm about to blow your mind.  Ready?  You can change jobs too!

The first quote also includes quote from robartsd, but he is actually addressing the point of the thread (the cost per mile of driving a car).

The real winner, though, is GuitarStv, who chimes in with this ridiculous attempt at mocking:

He can't hear you, he's saving up for the multiple sports cars and beach house that he needs to be able to retire. . .

So, just on this page, it's been suggested that Chris move and change jobs, just to be able to get rid of one car, even though it's pretty clear that he's thought about the trade-offs that such a drastic change would require, and doesn't want to.  It's ludicrous to think that because Chris has decided this, that he must also want multiple sports cars and a beach house.

Oh, and all of this is on a thread that he created that he's asking about the incremental cost per mile of driving.  I completely agree with NoraLenderBee on this one.

Oh, and Chris: I see what you're saying with only calculating the marginal depreciation per mile because you have to have a car anyway, but that's been bugging me and I think I've figured out why.  It doesn't fully take into account that you own your particular car (an Acura?) instead of just "a car."  And while you could say you're always going to have an Acura, that kind of dilutes the point of the calculation.  You could have a cheaper or more expensive car, but that might not show up as a marginal cost in your calculation even though you're clearly driving it instead of something else.

Does that make sense?

I wasn't assuming anything.  In another thread Chris indicated that he could never retire without multiple sports cars, a beach house, and maybe a boat.  Retiring with only a single, less expensive sports car would not be acceptable.

Not exactly what I said. I said I could retire with those things because that would give me plenty to do in retirement.  As it currently stands, I need something to occupy my time and mind, which is my very interesting and fulfilling career.

[Glenstache]

Here's my anecdote about food costs-- ~9-10 miles each way by bike for several years now. But my monthly food budget (groceries and eating out) hasn't changed in the last 10 years except to decrease when the older son moved out to go to college. And my wife bikes in the summer, and my younger son bikes year-round as well. Before and after biking for three adults did not change our food bill. What's with the heavy appetites? How many extra calories did you actually burn by biking?

Regarding the impact of car ownership on overall financial benefits from biking--by far the biggest contributor. Our move from two cars to one has saved us thousands annually. My son's choice to forego a car during college has saved him thousands annually. And just based on incremental costs alone, many people wouldn't want to trade the lesser amount of incremental dollars for the effort (and yes, sometimes inconvenience) of biking. So that point is taken.

One category regarding vehicles always puts my mind at ease re biking costs--car repairs. A single timing belt change or something similar COSTS AS MUCH AS MY BIKE! A transmission or something similar COSTS AS MUCH AS MY ENTIRE STABLE OF BIKES!! if you're truly driving a car into the ground, you will eventually face some repairs beyond mere fluid/battery changes and tires. My one car will last a LONG time sitting in my garage, getting run weekly but not daily. Protected in a garage instead of baking in the company parking lot. The interior will look better longer, and the paint won't fade as quickly--real reasons many people change cars that are mechanically sound.

As to lifestyle changes--people change jobs, relocate, etc for numerous reasons. I'm an avid utility cyclist, and I wouldn't relocate or change jobs just so I could bike. I would consider biking convenience if any of those choices came around. My wife specifically chose a job a while ago that was closer to home when she was looking to move ahead. When we bought our most recent home, we bought with cycling in mind. As to housing costs, I can buy houses that cost 3 times the cost of my house in bike-unfriendly areas in my town, or I could buy my house and save money on the house and transportation while making that choice. And if you're the type who wants to live in a single house for the next twenty+ years, wouldn't a good housing choice now be best for life optimization if it meant you would derive more utility over the next twenty? We don't even take as much vacation time away since we enjoy where we live and all that we can do. (Partly due to biking but could also be true for folks who live in rural areas).

Those are just a couple responses to points in the thread. One theme has once again shown its head. People who don't bike find little use for biking or concede few points to the benefits of biking, always looking to nitpick over minor details while missing major points. People who bike as much as I do also sometimes make the mistake to think that it's easy, desirable, or financially prudent to change jobs/housing in the short term. Both extremes are pretty narrow-minded. Few from either of these extremes would be able to give an unbiased explanation of the pros/cons to a truly inquisitive person (say, my two sons 3-4 years ago).

^^ This is a reasonable response.

The OPs original post bascially boils down to: "MMMs assumption of the federal mileage rate is too high. That changes the math." He is right and most of us who have actually tracked auto costs in detail back this up. However, his assumption that the purchase cost of a car is fixed and should be removed to focus on a version of a calculated marginal cost is incorrect because of wear and tear and depreciation (which are real costs even if you do not see them on a daily basis). Beyond that, the rest of it is the extent to which a person is willing to alter their life to optimize their commute for time, expense, or mode of transport. These are things that a person can do, and many people have done. However, that is ultimately a personal decision based on more variables than will be universally accepted on even an MMM forum.

There is a bit of bicycle cult on this board. They do have the math on their side for the majority of situations. But we do tend to be a bit fervent about changes in other's lives, which may not play out as easily as in our own (I still haven't been able to convince my SO to move in closer despite the fact that she bike commutes more than 4000 miles per year). Quite frankly, it is a welcome change from the way bicycles are usually discussed in the internet where drivers casually discuss how they would like to run cyclists off the road with their cars (and real life where some actually try).

[Chris22]

Here's my anecdote about food costs-- ~9-10 miles each way by bike for several years now. But my monthly food budget (groceries and eating out) hasn't changed in the last 10 years except to decrease when the older son moved out to go to college. And my wife bikes in the summer, and my younger son bikes year-round as well. Before and after biking for three adults did not change our food bill. What's with the heavy appetites? How many extra calories did you actually burn by biking?

Regarding the impact of car ownership on overall financial benefits from biking--by far the biggest contributor. Our move from two cars to one has saved us thousands annually. My son's choice to forego a car during college has saved him thousands annually. And just based on incremental costs alone, many people wouldn't want to trade the lesser amount of incremental dollars for the effort (and yes, sometimes inconvenience) of biking. So that point is taken.

One category regarding vehicles always puts my mind at ease re biking costs--car repairs. A single timing belt change or something similar COSTS AS MUCH AS MY BIKE! A transmission or something similar COSTS AS MUCH AS MY ENTIRE STABLE OF BIKES!! if you're truly driving a car into the ground, you will eventually face some repairs beyond mere fluid/battery changes and tires. My one car will last a LONG time sitting in my garage, getting run weekly but not daily. Protected in a garage instead of baking in the company parking lot. The interior will look better longer, and the paint won't fade as quickly--real reasons many people change cars that are mechanically sound.

As to lifestyle changes--people change jobs, relocate, etc for numerous reasons. I'm an avid utility cyclist, and I wouldn't relocate or change jobs just so I could bike. I would consider biking convenience if any of those choices came around. My wife specifically chose a job a while ago that was closer to home when she was looking to move ahead. When we bought our most recent home, we bought with cycling in mind. As to housing costs, I can buy houses that cost 3 times the cost of my house in bike-unfriendly areas in my town, or I could buy my house and save money on the house and transportation while making that choice. And if you're the type who wants to live in a single house for the next twenty+ years, wouldn't a good housing choice now be best for life optimization if it meant you would derive more utility over the next twenty? We don't even take as much vacation time away since we enjoy where we live and all that we can do. (Partly due to biking but could also be true for folks who live in rural areas).

Those are just a couple responses to points in the thread. One theme has once again shown its head. People who don't bike find little use for biking or concede few points to the benefits of biking, always looking to nitpick over minor details while missing major points. People who bike as much as I do also sometimes make the mistake to think that it's easy, desirable, or financially prudent to change jobs/housing in the short term. Both extremes are pretty narrow-minded. Few from either of these extremes would be able to give an unbiased explanation of the pros/cons to a truly inquisitive person (say, my two sons 3-4 years ago).

^^ This is a reasonable response.

The OPs original post bascially boils down to: "MMMs assumption of the federal mileage rate is too high. That changes the math." He is right and most of us who have actually tracked auto costs in detail back this up. However, his assumption that the purchase cost of a car is fixed and should be removed to focus on a version of a calculated marginal cost is incorrect because of wear and tear and depreciation (which are real costs even if you do not see them on a daily basis). Beyond that, the rest of it is the extent to which a person is willing to alter their life to optimize their commute for time, expense, or mode of transport. These are things that a person can do, and many people have done. However, that is ultimately a personal decision based on more variables than will be universally accepted on even an MMM forum.

There is a bit of bicycle cult on this board. They do have the math on their side for the majority of situations. But we do tend to be a bit fervent about changes in other's lives, which may not play out as easily as in our own (I still haven't been able to convince my SO to move in closer despite the fact that she bike commutes more than 4000 miles per year). Quite frankly, it is a welcome change from the way bicycles are usually discussed in the internet where drivers casually discuss how they would like to run cyclists off the road with their cars (and real life where some actually try).

Except that's a mischaracterization. My assumption is not THAT ownership of a car is fixed, the assumption is that the calc changes IF ownership of a car is fixed. Im flexible on how to allocate depreciation per mile except that I think you need to take a baseline amount out for depreciation that occurs irrespective of miles driven.

[Erica]

The idea of "freshening up" in the office... at the sink...

I mean, I guess you apparently can get away with that in some professions?  If a partner walked into the restroom and I was "freshening up" by washing my freaking armpits, if I wasn't immediately fired, I would sure as hell be on the way out.

It doesn't depend upon the profession. Maybe you need to seek another employer, that sounds very odd. So sorry to hear that.
Everyone I worked with at the California Welcome Center was highly educated, and paid very well by our County. We turned it from a small Tourist Center into a designated California Welcome Center. THAT IS THE GOAL for most employees. Health. Nowadays some people even get paid  to cycle in the form of lower insurance premiums. It's been discussed on this board. If they aren't "freshening up" at work, how do you think they are doing it cycling to and from work?
Remember I am female. We lock the doors and are always in private stalls. But both bathrooms were handicapped (size-able rooms) with locks on the door. People have more crap on their hands they are washing off than under the arm pits, trust me. And I will state the obvious, down below should be some cleaner so you can leave the bathroom cleaner than it was before you entered. Clorox has some wipes already wet with disifectant so a quick wipe up of the bathroom takes maybe 30 seconds.

When you are used to this, you can slip in and out of clothing really fast and have the bathroom wiped up in about the same amount of time it takes another person to do their business there. What I didn't have time to do is to nicely fold my clothes back in the pack so I would bring them to my desk and fold them there for 30 seconds or so.

Again, no one in their right mind is going to fire anyone for staying healthy. Especially not nowadays when so many firms are seeking that exact type of employee.

[Erica]

Here's my anecdote about food costs-- ~9-10 miles each way by bike for several years now. But my monthly food budget (groceries and eating out) hasn't changed in the last 10 years except to decrease when the older son moved out to go to college. And my wife bikes in the summer, and my younger son bikes year-round as well. Before and after biking for three adults did not change our food bill. What's with the heavy appetites? How many extra calories did you actually burn by biking?

Depending on your weight, level of athleticism, and speed, typical bicycling burns anywhere from 500-1200 calories per hour above the basal metabolic rate. So your ~19 mile commute consumes an extra 800-1400 calories compared to doing nothing. I'm not saying it isn't worth it or that people should avoid exercise to save calories, which would be kind of crazy. I'm saying that thermodynamics exist and while I can't peep into your food budget and tell you where the calories are coming from I can promise you that they are there because otherwise your thighs hold the secret to perpetual motion.

Once you are in shape, you are in shape. I've never ate much more because I cycle except maybe in the beginning. I think cycling does dictate eating slightly more but not much. I started out Anorexic to a degree, so I needed more calories in order to get anywhere on the bike. Just riding a few blocks exhausted me at first due to malnutrition. Cycling saved my bones. A bone density test showed osteopenia almost advanced into the diagnosis of osteoporosis. It was turned around into a normal range test within just 4 months. At first, Doc thought he had the wrong x ray when I returned. Now weighing about 15 lbs more...and having bone density numbers which just slipped into the normal range. All within 4 months, pretty amazing. They also removed the anorexic diagnosis from my chart as my mentality didn't coincide with anorexia as a mental disease. I didn't eat much due to a constant, slight upset stomach. Eating healthy seemed to relive those symptoms for good. I ignored people who told me I was too thin. When the Doc said it, I changed my lifestyle immediately. Everyone will have their own new stories regarding health, how they feel better and so on.

You are not a cyclist so you don't understand that no one plans their meals around cycling. Just like they don't plan their meals around walking each day. It is what it is, and your diet would accommodate whatever your level of activity is. If it is hardcore, it will likely change to more grab and go healthy meals, lighter meals if you were a meat and potatoes guy before. After you exercise hardcore on a regular basis, your diet does change. I am not sure why but once a cycling addiction takes hold, your diet just ends up being like putting gas in your car. You want the best kind of gasoline in your car. Your body tells you what it needs so you eat that. You become much more in-tuned with your body, and when something is "off" about it. No one needs to ensure they have enough calories unless they already had an eating disorder. I live in the Endurance Capitol of the World, our hills are abundant, long and hard. Yet after a while you get used to them. Many cyclists carry a quick granola bar or small snack but nothing of any real substance imho. Just enough for a small boost of energy unless an especially long ride is planned, maybe. Once in shape, you may ride slower on some days due to your food intake that day but you generally arrive to your regular destination within the same time frame. Maybe a few minutes to a half hour. Hardcore Cyclists don't take long rest breaks usually, even on their "slow" days.

[Chris22]

I sweat like a hog when I work out. Was true when I was in high school running 18:00 5ks on the CC team and it's true today. A sponge bath in the bathroom doesn't cut it for me. If it cuts it for others, great, but I'm not comfortable without a shower after I work out.

[Erica]

I sweat like a hog when I work out. Was true when I was in high school running 18:00 5ks on the CC team and it's true today. A sponge bath in the bathroom doesn't cut it for me. If it cuts it for others, great, but I'm not comfortable without a shower after I work out.

You must work out for very short periods of time then eh?

[beltim]

I sweat like a hog when I work out. Was true when I was in high school running 18:00 5ks on the CC team and it's true today. A sponge bath in the bathroom doesn't cut it for me. If it cuts it for others, great, but I'm not comfortable without a shower after I work out.

You must work out for very short periods of time then eh?

You're joking, right?  Do you know what Cross Country is?

[Chris22]

I sweat like a hog when I work out. Was true when I was in high school running 18:00 5ks on the CC team and it's true today. A sponge bath in the bathroom doesn't cut it for me. If it cuts it for others, great, but I'm not comfortable without a shower after I work out.

You must work out for very short periods of time then eh?

I don't follow the logic.

[Erica]

I sweat like a hog when I work out. Was true when I was in high school running 18:00 5ks on the CC team and it's true today. A sponge bath in the bathroom doesn't cut it for me. If it cuts it for others, great, but I'm not comfortable without a shower after I work out.

You must work out for very short periods of time then eh?

I don't follow the logic.

You mentioned sprinting in school, a race. Cycling in general, isn't getting that level of exercise in a short time like your 18 minutes. There are rest periods, level ground where you rest as you ride, until the next hill for example
If you push yourself to the limit for shorter periods of time, you might sweat more?
Maybe that theory is way off...

[Erica]

I sweat like a hog when I work out. Was true when I was in high school running 18:00 5ks on the CC team and it's true today. A sponge bath in the bathroom doesn't cut it for me. If it cuts it for others, great, but I'm not comfortable without a shower after I work out.

You must work out for very short periods of time then eh?

You're joking, right?  Do you know what Cross Country is?

To borrow Chris' expression...I don't follow your logic
Cross Country what? skiing? Yes I've done that a few times but I don't enjoy it
I've been on 7 day bike tours with a company called IMAGINE BIKE TOURS. They are pretty inexpensive, btw. I highly recommend this company

[big_owl]

I sweat like a hog when I work out. Was true when I was in high school running 18:00 5ks on the CC team and it's true today. A sponge bath in the bathroom doesn't cut it for me. If it cuts it for others, great, but I'm not comfortable without a shower after I work out.

You must work out for very short periods of time then eh?

You're joking, right?  Do you know what Cross Country is?

To borrow Chris' expression...I don't follow your logic
Cross Country what? skiing? Yes I've done that a few times but I don't enjoy it
I've been on 7 day bike tours with a company called IMAGINE BIKE TOURS. They are pretty inexpensive, btw. I highly recommend this company

You miss the part where he said "running"?  CC is one of the most sadistic sports out there.

[beltim]

I sweat like a hog when I work out. Was true when I was in high school running 18:00 5ks on the CC team and it's true today. A sponge bath in the bathroom doesn't cut it for me. If it cuts it for others, great, but I'm not comfortable without a shower after I work out.

You must work out for very short periods of time then eh?

You're joking, right?  Do you know what Cross Country is?

To borrow Chris' expression...I don't follow your logic
Cross Country what? skiing? Yes I've done that a few times but I don't enjoy it

I bolded why we know it's not skiing.  Cross Country running is running for distance, not sprints.  Let me quote Wikipedia (which is the first link if you google "cross country":

In the United States, college men typically compete on 8 km (5.0 mi) or 10 km (6.2 mi) courses, while college women race for 5 km (3.1 mi) or 6 km (3.7 mi).[5] High school courses may be as short as 2.5 km (1.6 mi), but the most common distances are 5 kilometers (3.1 mi) for both male and female runners.

Training for cross country involves running much longer distances and much longer times.

I've been on 7 day bike tours with a company called IMAGINE BIKE TOURS. They are pretty inexpensive, btw. I highly recommend this company

7 day bike tours are totally irrelevant to anything discussed in this thread.

[Erica]

I sweat like a hog when I work out. Was true when I was in high school running 18:00 5ks on the CC team and it's true today. A sponge bath in the bathroom doesn't cut it for me. If it cuts it for others, great, but I'm not comfortable without a shower after I work out.

You must work out for very short periods of time then eh?

You're joking, right?  Do you know what Cross Country is?

To borrow Chris' expression...I don't follow your logic
Cross Country what? skiing? Yes I've done that a few times but I don't enjoy it
I've been on 7 day bike tours with a company called IMAGINE BIKE TOURS. They are pretty inexpensive, btw. I highly recommend this company

You miss the part where he said "running"?  CC is one of the most sadistic sports out there.

I saw him mention he ran in school. He never stated he still does that type of exercise. He only implied he exercises still, hence why I asked.And Cross Country as I showed you, isn't limited to running. Around here, no one uses that term Cross Country unless they are driving up the hill an hr to go Cross Country Skiing.

[big_owl]

I sweat like a hog when I work out. Was true when I was in high school running 18:00 5ks on the CC team and it's true today. A sponge bath in the bathroom doesn't cut it for me. If it cuts it for others, great, but I'm not comfortable without a shower after I work out.

You must work out for very short periods of time then eh?

You're joking, right?  Do you know what Cross Country is?

To borrow Chris' expression...I don't follow your logic
Cross Country what? skiing? Yes I've done that a few times but I don't enjoy it
I've been on 7 day bike tours with a company called IMAGINE BIKE TOURS. They are pretty inexpensive, btw. I highly recommend this company

You miss the part where he said "running"?  CC is one of the most sadistic sports out there.

I saw him mention he ran in school. He never stated he still does that type of exercise. He only implied he exercises still, hence why I asked.And Cross Country as I showed you, isn't limited to running. Around here, no one uses that term Cross Country unless they are driving up the hill an hr to go Cross Country Skiing.

No, you attempted a subtle insult but it backfired on you.  When someone says they were "running cross country - 5k in 18min" (a quite respectable time for a HSer, BTW)...it probably doesn't mean they were "skiing" or "snowshoeing" or driving up a hill. 

[Erica]

No you error wise owl. No one said they were running Cross Country

The 18m I misinterpreted as 18 minutes. Until I read your post just now, I'd still think that. I was referencing it with the amount of

sweating he expected to do if cycling to work

That is why I mentioned sprinting. It had nothing to do with the generalized term of Cross Country, he never stated Cross Country running.

Those words were brought in later. Not that it matters, I am probably splitting hairs

[Chris22]

Jesus Christ people, I just meant I sweat a lot, and I was anticipating the "out of shape" comments and headed them off by mentioning I sweat a lot back when I was in an ultra high state of fitness (running cross country means you run 75 miles a week or more.). Nothing more to it than that. I readily admit I'm not in that shape any more, but it doesn't matter I still sweat a ton.

[big_owl]

No you error wise owl. No one said they were running Cross Country

The 18m I misinterpreted as 18 minutes. Until I read your post just now, I'd still think that. I was referencing it with the amount of

sweating he expected to do if cycling to work

That is why I mentioned sprinting. It had nothing to do with the generalized term of Cross Country, he never stated Cross Country anything

That was brought in later. Not that it matters, I am probably splitting hairs

But 18:00 *is* 18min...and he said 5k, which is 5 kilometers.  And he said HS Cross Country, which is a HS running sport. He never said anything about sprinting so far as I can tell, you did. Of course that's the actual race, not practices which are routinely much longer and more brutal than a race itself.  The toughest I remember is the 20-quarters workout.  Run 20 x 400m around the track, all at faster than race pace with only a 200m walk between each quarter. 

Well in any case, you learned a new sport today.  You should google Steve Prefontaine - he grew up just across the border in Oregon and is a *little bit* of a legend in those parts.

[big_owl]

Jesus Christ people, I just meant I sweat a lot, and I was anticipating the "out of shape" comments and headed them off by mentioning I sweat a lot back when I was in an ultra high state of fitness (running cross country means you run 75 miles a week or more.). Nothing more to it than that. I readily admit I'm not in that shape any more, but it doesn't matter I still sweat a ton.

LOL, this is a fun thread.  It's risqué to the MMM community, varies from thermodynamics to cars to bicycles to cross country to oatmeal in-stomach expansion factors...

[Erica]

Jesus Christ people, I just meant I sweat a lot, and I was anticipating the "out of shape" comments and headed them off by mentioning I sweat a lot back when I was in an ultra high state of fitness (running cross country means you run 75 miles a week or more.). Nothing more to it than that. I readily admit I'm not in that shape any more, but it doesn't matter I still sweat a ton.

I'm sorry. I  thought you sweat alot because you were (in h.s or currently) doing short stints of hardcore exercise-18 min each... and wouldn't experience as much sweat with biking to work since biking is generally longer and not as rigorous. But again, could be a faulty theory. Since you have your toddler half the time you couldn't bike to work really anyhow. Maybe someday. I'll go find something else to argue about lol

[NoraLenderbee]

I mean, changing your home and your work to ride a bike an hour a day is a pretty big change, no?  I mean it's what – 80, 90% of your day, to optimize 5%? 

Is it a pretty big change?  I guess I don't really define myself by where I live or where I work, so it never seemed like a big deal to me. 

I don't either. However, the fact remains that time spent at home and at work is vastly greater than the time spent commuting. Houses are expensive. Moving has big transactional costs. Finding a new job that uses your skills, pays well, and that you like is not always easy.   You, and some others on this thread, are acting like it's no big deal, when the actual time, effort, and cost of doing those things can be enormous. And you're baying like mad dogs at someone who decided that in his particular case, it wasn't worth it. Enough already.

 

[Erica]

Jesus Christ people, I just meant I sweat a lot, and I was anticipating the "out of shape" comments and headed them off by mentioning I sweat a lot back when I was in an ultra high state of fitness (running cross country means you run 75 miles a week or more.). Nothing more to it than that. I readily admit I'm not in that shape any more, but it doesn't matter I still sweat a ton.

LOL, this is a fun thread.  It's risqué to the MMM community, varies from thermodynamics to cars to bicycles to cross country to oatmeal in-stomach expansion factors...

Owl he didn't say cross country, go look who said it. That was brought up later. And it doesn't matter. 18 minutes is a short stint compared to the exercise you get cycling (unless your on one hella long hill, it isn't usually equal). I was just trying to figure out if he was riding to work a half hour, it wouldn't be that much sweat I didn't think. He even mentioned stopping at a red so it isn't as vigorous as sprinting for 18  minutes so hopefully not as much sweat. So not as much to clean off in the bathroom if he did ride to work.

[big_owl]

Jesus Christ people, I just meant I sweat a lot, and I was anticipating the "out of shape" comments and headed them off by mentioning I sweat a lot back when I was in an ultra high state of fitness (running cross country means you run 75 miles a week or more.). Nothing more to it than that. I readily admit I'm not in that shape any more, but it doesn't matter I still sweat a ton.

LOL, this is a fun thread.  It's risqué to the MMM community, varies from thermodynamics to cars to bicycles to cross country to oatmeal in-stomach expansion factors...

Owl he didn't say cross country, go look who said it. That was brought up later. And it doesn't matter. 18 minutes is a short stint compared to the exercise you get cycling (unless your on one hella long hill, it isn't usually equal). I was just trying to figure out if he was riding to work a half hour, it wouldn't be that much sweat I didn't think. He even mentioned stopping at a red so it isn't as vigorous so hopefully not as much sweat. So not as much to clean off in the bathroom if he did ride to work.

Trust me, 18min doesn't feel like a short stint when you're out in no-man's land racing up a large, muddy hill in your 5/8"spikes, shorts and a tank top when it's 40 degrees and raining outside...18min feels like an eternity!  I've done some bike racing but nowhere near as much as running and agree they are different types of work.  I'd certainly expect to sweat a lot less commuting on a bike than running a CC race!  Maybe not in June-Aug around here though.  At least when you're biking there's a bit of a breeze and you can coast.

[Erica]

Jesus Christ people, I just meant I sweat a lot, and I was anticipating the "out of shape" comments and headed them off by mentioning I sweat a lot back when I was in an ultra high state of fitness (running cross country means you run 75 miles a week or more.). Nothing more to it than that. I readily admit I'm not in that shape any more, but it doesn't matter I still sweat a ton.

LOL, this is a fun thread.  It's risqué to the MMM community, varies from thermodynamics to cars to bicycles to cross country to oatmeal in-stomach expansion factors...

Owl he didn't say cross country, go look who said it. That was brought up later. And it doesn't matter. 18 minutes is a short stint compared to the exercise you get cycling (unless your on one hella long hill, it isn't usually equal). I was just trying to figure out if he was riding to work a half hour, it wouldn't be that much sweat I didn't think. He even mentioned stopping at a red so it isn't as vigorous so hopefully not as much sweat. So not as much to clean off in the bathroom if he did ride to work.

Trust me, 18min doesn't feel like a short stint when you're out in no-man's land racing up a large, muddy hill in your 5/8"spikes, shorts and a tank top when it's 40 degrees and raining outside...18min feels like an eternity!  I've done some bike racing but nowhere near as much as running and agree they are different types of work.  I'd certainly expect to sweat a lot less commuting on a bike than running a CC race!  Maybe not in June-Aug around here though.  At least when you're biking there's a bit of a breeze and you can coast.

I understand. I am sure it does feel like eternity doing that. I've never raced like that, ever. Whether cycling or running.

[beltim]

I mean, changing your home and your work to ride a bike an hour a day is a pretty big change, no?  I mean it's what – 80, 90% of your day, to optimize 5%? 

Is it a pretty big change?  I guess I don't really define myself by where I live or where I work, so it never seemed like a big deal to me. 

I don't either. However, the fact remains that time spent at home and at work is vastly greater than the time spent commuting. Houses are expensive. Moving has big transactional costs. Finding a new job that uses your skills, pays well, and that you like is not always easy.   You, and some others on this thread, are acting like it's no big deal, when the actual time, effort, and cost of doing those things can be enormous. And you're baying like mad dogs at someone who decided that in his particular case, it wasn't worth it. Enough already.

+1

[music lover]

Some folks seem to be unaware of how little training (if done right) is actually needed to be in good shape.

If you're cycling 6 or 8 hours a week to work, then a lot of that is wasted time. Do it to save money or the planet, but don't fool yourself thinking it's the best or most efficient way to get into shape. To put it into perspective, I have a friend who runs 100 mile ultra-marathons (consistently top 20%) with an average of 6 - 8 hours a week of training.

I ran a 1:49 half marathon with only 3 training runs a week...2 of them 25 minutes and 1 of them 45-50 minutes. At age 50. That's a little over 6.5 hours a MONTH. If I chose to bike to work, that eats up 32 hours per month as opposed to driving which takes a total of 6 hours. I'm gaining 20 hours a month of free time by driving and am in excellent shape. My time is more important than a few dollars savings on extra fuel and depreciation.

Everyone's situation is different, but far too many people here are making blanket judgements that cycling is the only way to commute to work without considering other factors. They are wrong.

[faramund]

I'd second music lover, I run 40-60kms a week, and I have a bike. But cycling, ... it just doesn't do it for me. When I run, I can just get on a path, run at the pace I want, if I get bored, I speed up, if its too hard or hilly I slow down. And I also vague out, and plod along, without really thinking or worrying about much.

Cycling in contrast seems very terrain/traffic driven, so I find that its hard to get into a good rhythm, and its irksome to have to pay attention to what's happening on the road.

But, live and let live, I have no problem with people preferring cycling, or any other form of exercise, over running.

I appreciate my car, it takes me 15 minutes to get to work (versus 40-50 minutes cycling), or 90 minutes either on public transport or on the occasional days when I run it. So I take advantage of that extra car generated time, so that I can frequently run either before, or after work.

[Merrie]

This is stupid.

There are two costs of owning a car.  There is the total cost of ownership, then there is the marginal cost of driving incremental miles. 

Both numbers can be appropriate for different reasons.

If you already own a car (as MMM does) the marginal cost of driving is the relevant metric in most cases.

However, there still are ways to significantly reduce your total cost of ownership.  Fox example, buying a less expensive used car.

This is very similar to the arguments you see on threads about marginal vs. effective tax rates.  Some people spend lots of time arguing that effective tax rates are the important metric while others argue that marginal rates are the most important.  And both are right depending on the situation.

This is how I read the point of Chris's thread. And I agree with it and with his logic (to a point, I don't entirely agree with how he did depreciation). Assuming you will have a car either way, it doesn't make any sense to include fixed costs in your per-mile calculation. Challenging the assumption that one will have a car either way will happen on a case-by-case basis, but is a separate discussion than the calculation of the marginal mileage rate.

I recently tried to calculate the marginal mileage rate of a longer work commute and came up with a figure around 25 cents per mile including depreciation on my obviously extremely valuable 12 year old Corolla, though admittedly I used a quick and dirty approximation for depreciation.

[tobitonic]

Some folks seem to be unaware of how little training (if done right) is actually needed to be in good shape.

If you're cycling 6 or 8 hours a week to work, then a lot of that is wasted time. Do it to save money or the planet, but don't fool yourself thinking it's the best or most efficient way to get into shape. To put it into perspective, I have a friend who runs 100 mile ultra-marathons (consistently top 20%) with an average of 6 - 8 hours a week of training.

I ran a 1:49 half marathon with only 3 training runs a week...2 of them 25 minutes and 1 of them 45-50 minutes. At age 50. That's a little over 6.5 hours a MONTH. If I chose to bike to work, that eats up 32 hours per month as opposed to driving which takes a total of 6 hours. I'm gaining 20 hours a month of free time by driving and am in excellent shape. My time is more important than a few dollars savings on extra fuel and depreciation.

Everyone's situation is different, but far too many people here are making blanket judgements that cycling is the only way to commute to work without considering other factors. They are wrong.

Agreed. Besides that, longevity research suggests the folks who are living the longest and healthiest lives get and stay "in shape" primarily by a.) their jobs, or b.) walking or gardening.

[franklin w. dixon]

Here's my anecdote about food costs-- ~9-10 miles each way by bike for several years now. But my monthly food budget (groceries and eating out) hasn't changed in the last 10 years except to decrease when the older son moved out to go to college. And my wife bikes in the summer, and my younger son bikes year-round as well. Before and after biking for three adults did not change our food bill. What's with the heavy appetites? How many extra calories did you actually burn by biking?

Depending on your weight, level of athleticism, and speed, typical bicycling burns anywhere from 500-1200 calories per hour above the basal metabolic rate. So your ~19 mile commute consumes an extra 800-1400 calories compared to doing nothing. I'm not saying it isn't worth it or that people should avoid exercise to save calories, which would be kind of crazy. I'm saying that thermodynamics exist and while I can't peep into your food budget and tell you where the calories are coming from I can promise you that they are there because otherwise your thighs hold the secret to perpetual motion.

Once you are in shape, you are in shape. I've never ate much more because I cycle except maybe in the beginning. I think cycling does dictate eating slightly more but not much. I started out Anorexic to a degree, so I needed more calories in order to get anywhere on the bike. Just riding a few blocks exhausted me at first due to malnutrition. Cycling saved my bones. A bone density test showed osteopenia almost advanced into the diagnosis of osteoporosis. It was turned around into a normal range test within just 4 months. At first, Doc thought he had the wrong x ray when I returned. Now weighing about 15 lbs more...and having bone density numbers which just slipped into the normal range. All within 4 months, pretty amazing. They also removed the anorexic diagnosis from my chart as my mentality didn't coincide with anorexia as a mental disease. I didn't eat much due to a constant, slight upset stomach. Eating healthy seemed to relive those symptoms for good. I ignored people who told me I was too thin. When the Doc said it, I changed my lifestyle immediately. Everyone will have their own new stories regarding health, how they feel better and so on.

You are not a cyclist so you don't understand that no one plans their meals around cycling. Just like they don't plan their meals around walking each day. It is what it is, and your diet would accommodate whatever your level of activity is. If it is hardcore, it will likely change to more grab and go healthy meals, lighter meals if you were a meat and potatoes guy before. After you exercise hardcore on a regular basis, your diet does change. I am not sure why but once a cycling addiction takes hold, your diet just ends up being like putting gas in your car. You want the best kind of gasoline in your car. Your body tells you what it needs so you eat that. You become much more in-tuned with your body, and when something is "off" about it. No one needs to ensure they have enough calories unless they already had an eating disorder. I live in the Endurance Capitol of the World, our hills are abundant, long and hard. Yet after a while you get used to them. Many cyclists carry a quick granola bar or small snack but nothing of any real substance imho. Just enough for a small boost of energy unless an especially long ride is planned, maybe. Once in shape, you may ride slower on some days due to your food intake that day but you generally arrive to your regular destination within the same time frame. Maybe a few minutes to a half hour. Hardcore Cyclists don't take long rest breaks usually, even on their "slow" days.

what the christ

[franklin w. dixon]

"Things... need... energy... to... move."

"Yeah well, that's like, your opinion man" <--- coulda just said this and saved yourself 250 words

[Erica]

"Things... need... energy... to... move."

"Yeah well, that's like, your opinion man" <--- coulda just said this and saved yourself 250 words

Who do you believe you are talking to... or talking for?
I think all your teeny tiny peanut butter cups have fermented