Author Topic: Cars?  (Read 6393 times)

LearningMustachian72

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Cars?
« on: February 05, 2020, 04:23:54 PM »
Hey!

My two old cars are on the verge of failure.

What cars would you recommend on a path towards FI? 

Little background: We live in Minnesota and want one very fuel efficient car and another car with AWD or 4WD that we would rarely use (I work from home) but that would be useful for family road trips, loading cargo when necessary and getting around on snowy days.

Thank you in advance!

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2020, 04:40:41 PM »
My wife and I have a Subaru Forester and a Mitsubishi Mirage. If you wanted spend a bit more, you could upgrade those to a Subaru Outback and a Toyota Prius.

scottish

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2020, 05:28:52 PM »
I think there's a Corolla hatchback/station wagon available now.    It's not AWD, but you could save the money and buy an excellent set of winter tires...

My 16 year old Tacoma is having regular failures.   The winters up here cause nasty corrosion problems.    I haven't decided what to replace it with though, so I'm curious what people suggest.

dhc

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2020, 06:04:01 PM »
Take it from the man himself: https://youtu.be/atiltnc1icY

Syonyk

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2020, 08:05:33 PM »
What sort of driving do you do, and what sort of cargo do you need to haul?  What are average trip lengths?

If you work from home and only rarely need a vehicle, but need a cargo/winter vehicle, I'm a large fan of the fuel efficient car and the truck approach, though one could easily enough replace a truck with a Subaru wagon or something, if that fits your needs.

If most of the trips are under about 30 miles round trip, consider a Gen 1 Volt.  If most of the trips are under 50 miles, consider a Gen 2 Volt.  They'll cover your daily driving on electric, but you can still drive cross country on gas, on the infrastructure that's easy to find.  They're in the 30-40mpg range on gas, so if you do a ton of driving, a Prius is probably a better option.

LearningMustachian72

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2020, 01:54:43 PM »
Thank you everyone for your thoughts.

While I work from home, my wife has a 60 mile round trip commute 9 months of the year (we are looking for closer employers once she gets tenureship this year).

We like the idea of a very fuel efficient vehicle for everyday commuting and a wagon/truck for snowy weather (we also enjoy camping with our two dogs and several outdoor activities where the cargo space is nice).

Mainly looking for something reliable and as fuel efficient as possible that meets those standards.

We are considering...

vehicle A: Toyota Prius, Chevy Volt, Lexus CT200
Vehicle B: outback, old Tacoma/4Runner, older conversion van (roadtripping while being able to sleep in my car is appealing :)




Just Joe

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2020, 03:11:08 PM »
Buy something frugal and unfashionable (unpopular). We have an older domestic sedan that nobody wants and therefore it is cheap. The interesting thing is that it is cheap to repair on the rare occasion that it needs repairs.

Need an axle? Rockauto has them for about $40 each. Need a wheel bearing? About $40 again. Need tires? They are just 15 inch wheels so tires are cheap unlike newer cars with 19 inch wheels. Looking down the price lists there are repair parts like balljoints for $10.

We don't drive it long distances and we don't drive it every day. Last year I gave it an oil change, bought new floormats for it, and bought a set of tires. Oh and I used a 25 cents worth of contact glue to tighten up a headliner that was getting loose and flapping a little when the windows were down.

I'll suggest that hatchbacks make small cars more versatile. While I default to Honda's products, a carefully picked "lesser" brand can also deliver good economical results. Also, remember you can sleuth out many problems finding good discussion forums that discuss the vehicle in question specifically. There are also a ton of general car repair websites but I find their value to be lower to me.

The world will tell you to consider a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord - both fine vehicles. Don't forget the Buick Century. Also reliable but far less popular and thus cheaper to buy. If you are lucky you can buy one that a senior citizen is selling b/c they are giving up driving. 

You can try search Craigslist via Search Tempest which allows people to search a larger radius of lists in one go.

Just Joe

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2020, 03:14:43 PM »
While the easy solution might be a Honda Fit - also consider the Toyota Corolla hatchback and - this is the important one - the Chevy Cruze hatchback. The Cruze hatch is often forgotten and may be a lower price because of it.

Using Wikipedia you can rollback history to the point where Civic came as a hatchback and see what the competing brands and models were.

Just Joe

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2020, 03:20:37 PM »
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/

There are several threads here to read up - especially the high mileage/old car discussion.

ApacheStache

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2020, 10:05:58 PM »

Mainly looking for something reliable and as fuel efficient as possible that meets those standards.

We are considering...

Tacoma/4Runner

I had a 4Runner and really enjoyed driving it in the summer. It's a reliable vehicle, but at 19 mpg on a good day, it's not a smart option for commuting long distances. Also, its ability to accelerate to a moderate speed from a stop leaves a lot to be desired and it has the turning radius of a small boat :) Lastly, I've driven my fair share of MN winters and a 4Runner would not be my vehicle of choice for sketchy winter driving situations. Just for context, during my MN days, I survived the winters driving a Chevy Malibu, a Jetta and a Toyota Corolla -- never got stuck in the snow once.

Instead of forking over a ton of money on "highly capable" winter vehicles, I would invest in winter tires, basic recovery gear and sensible driving speeds.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 10:08:57 PM by ApacheStache »

KarefulKactus15

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2020, 06:00:04 AM »
I drive a 2012 Infiniti fx35 about 800 miles a month.

It would be challenging to find a less mustachian vehicle. . .

I've never had to deal with rough winter's, but I certainly wouldn't want to tackle them in anything of value.  Maybe a beater with snow tires and recovery gear.

zinnie

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2020, 06:41:04 AM »
From a mustachian perspective, I'd reconsider owning one car you rarely use. Can you get a "good enough" fuel efficient car and just grab a rental or UHaul for those rare occasions?

Syonyk

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2020, 08:49:50 AM »
From a mustachian perspective, I'd reconsider owning one car you rarely use. Can you get a "good enough" fuel efficient car and just grab a rental or UHaul for those rare occasions?

When Minnesota gets hammered with snow, you might not be able to get a small vehicle out to go rent something larger...

Xlar

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2020, 08:58:26 AM »
Hey!

My two old cars are on the verge of failure.

What cars would you recommend on a path towards FI? 

Little background: We live in Minnesota and want one very fuel efficient car and another car with AWD or 4WD that we would rarely use (I work from home) but that would be useful for family road trips, loading cargo when necessary and getting around on snowy days.

Thank you in advance!

What cars do you have currently and what makes you think they are on the verge of failure? Typically the best bang for you

Lkxe

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Cars?
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2020, 09:24:55 AM »
We had a Prius with snow tires here in Colorado. It worked well for highway commuting, then my teen grew to 6 feet and didn’t fit as well in the back with the dog and luggage for traveling. We replaced it with a used Nissan Rouge. I would bought an outback but the pricing was better for the Rogue


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« Last Edit: February 07, 2020, 06:17:48 PM by Lkxe »

ketchup

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2020, 09:30:08 AM »
The world will tell you to consider a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord - both fine vehicles. Don't forget the Buick Century. Also reliable but far less popular and thus cheaper to buy. If you are lucky you can buy one that a senior citizen is selling b/c they are giving up driving. 
This is very true.  My grandpa has a 2003 Buick he bought new in 2003 and I think it has 22,000 miles on it now (he was already retired for almost 20 years when he bought it). 

I also bought a 1992 Buick with 158k for $700 in 2014 and ran it into the ground right past 200k a few years later.

Boring older cars are a great overlooked and therefore undervalued option.

GuitarStv

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2020, 09:40:17 AM »
4WD / AWD isn't all that useful in snow - certainly nowhere near as useful as winter tires.  Buy a good set of winter tires and mount 'em on steel rims.  Then put them on your fuel efficient vehicle for winter use, and switch 'em off spring/summer/fall.  Plus, you'll reap the benefits of having better grip in lower temperatures all winter long (even dry/clear roads won't grip all-seasons very well).

I grew up in Northern Ontario, in a town where we would get 12 - 16 ft of snow each year.  If it's too snowy for a small car to drive (more than two ft of snow unplowed on the road was usually about where I'd draw the line) isn't going to be safe in a large AWD vehicle either.  Wait until the snow stops and the plows get out, and you'll be fine with the smaller car.

Then there's no reason to own a second vehicle.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2020, 09:46:09 AM »
If most of the trips are under about 30 miles round trip, consider a Gen 1 Volt.  If most of the trips are under 50 miles, consider a Gen 2 Volt.  They'll cover your daily driving on electric, but you can still drive cross country on gas, on the infrastructure that's easy to find.  They're in the 30-40mpg range on gas, so if you do a ton of driving, a Prius is probably a better option.

Pretty much this. The Gen 1 Volts are priced lower on the used market (obviously), but they have some drawbacks too. They require premium unleaded and the battery pack runs down the center of the car, so there's no center seat in the rear. That can limit flexibility, and might make dog hauling a pain.

The Gen 2 Volts have longer electric range, run on regular unleaded, and have a traditional rear bench seat that can seat 3 people. The downside is that they're more expensive upfront since they're newer and more capable.

If you're considering a Prius, I'd also look at a Ford CMax. They're small hybrid or PHEV hatchbacks that are often overlooked and forgotten about. Ford actually licensed Toyotas hybrid tech, so it's got basically the same reliability as the Prius with a cheaper buy in. Regular hybrids are the most common, but the PHEV gets about 20 miles of all electric range if you can find one. Their battery isn't as large or robust as a Volt, but they're typically cheaper buy in. You can also get the same hybrid and PHEV power trains in the Fusion if you want a more understated mid-size sedan, or need more interior space. Depreciation on the Ford hybrids is strong, and makes them nice bargains on the used market.

When I was shopping for a new family car awhile ago I wanted something that got great fuel economy. I'm over 6ft tall, spouse is 5'10", and we needed room for a rear facing child seat in the back and occasionally a Mastiff. I wanted a Volt, but we couldn't physically fit. While searching for alternatives, I found the Fusion PHEV. The battery takes up tons of trunk space, which can be a deal breaker for some, but it's just a commuter, so I haul people more than things. And we have a family hauler for big stuff, road trips, etc so the reduced trunk space was no big deal. I've been very happy with the Fusion PHEV thus far. It had a lifetime fuel economy in the mid 40s when it was delivered, and in the 18 months I've had it I've raised that to the mid 80s on my commute (20 miles each way, Typical Midwestern weather/topography). Might get it closer to 90mpg next summer when warm weather returns. $16k bought a two year old car that stickered for $37k new. It had just 23k miles on it at the time. I like that it blends into traffic, without necessarily looking different like most hybrids seem to.

Rosy

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2020, 09:56:16 AM »
Honda Accord would be the obvious MMM choice, but I couldn't find one in good condition and a good price when I was looking.
We decided on a Subaru Forester for Mr. R. who is still working.
I drive a 2014 Buick Verano that I bought with 14,000 miles on it. It now has close to 20,000 miles.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2020, 10:11:24 AM »
What I would suggest:

Car #1: Either Prius, Corolla, or Civic.  Economical, ubiquitous, unlikely to need repairs, inexpensive to repair if it happens.
Car #2: Toyota Sienna or Honda Odyssey.  GuitarStv is right--AWD is overrated.  It's good for avoiding getting stuck in the snow, but doesn't help with braking or turning.  The cargo capacity will astound you, and the comfort for trips will surprise you.  You can get AWD on the Sienna if you really want it.

Syonyk

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2020, 11:21:26 AM »
Pretty much this. The Gen 1 Volts are priced lower on the used market (obviously), but they have some drawbacks too. They require premium unleaded and the battery pack runs down the center of the car, so there's no center seat in the rear. That can limit flexibility, and might make dog hauling a pain.
Quote

Premium doesn't add that much of a cost per mile, especially if you're not using that much of it.  We live in a rural area, and the Gen1 covers trips into town on battery, but we use gas on longer runs.  Still, we're averaging about 180mpg since we bought it.  If you're going through a ton of gas, the Volt is the wrong platform, because it's gas engine fuel economy isn't as good as some of the dedicated hybrid platforms.

In terms of space, all I can say is "Go try it."  I'd been convinced that we needed a Gen 2 Volt, because the Gen 1 is "tiny" and "has no space" and... etc.  I talked to someone I saw locally who had one, and had a carseat/dog in it.  Which... I'd been led to believe was impossible.  So we found one for sale, took the carseats, figured out that stuff would fit, and have one.

If you're tall, and don't have large people in the back seats, the Gen1 Volt has more room than many vehicles I've driven.  I'm a 6' tall, "slide the seat to the back" sort of guy, and I don't put the driver's seat all the way back on the Volt - there's a TON of room up front, though if you're all the way back, there's not much room behind.



The Gen 2 Volts have longer electric range, run on regular unleaded, and have a traditional rear bench seat that can seat 3 people. The downside is that they're more expensive upfront since they're newer and more capable.

If you're considering a Prius, I'd also look at a Ford CMax. They're small hybrid or PHEV hatchbacks that are often overlooked and forgotten about. Ford actually licensed Toyotas hybrid tech, so it's got basically the same reliability as the Prius with a cheaper buy in. Regular hybrids are the most common, but the PHEV gets about 20 miles of all electric range if you can find one. Their battery isn't as large or robust as a Volt, but they're typically cheaper buy in. You can also get the same hybrid and PHEV power trains in the Fusion if you want a more understated mid-size sedan, or need more interior space. Depreciation on the Ford hybrids is strong, and makes them nice bargains on the used market.

When I was shopping for a new family car awhile ago I wanted something that got great fuel economy. I'm over 6ft tall, spouse is 5'10", and we needed room for a rear facing child seat in the back and occasionally a Mastiff. I wanted a Volt, but we couldn't physically fit. While searching for alternatives, I found the Fusion PHEV. The battery takes up tons of trunk space, which can be a deal breaker for some, but it's just a commuter, so I haul people more than things. And we have a family hauler for big stuff, road trips, etc so the reduced trunk space was no big deal. I've been very happy with the Fusion PHEV thus far. It had a lifetime fuel economy in the mid 40s when it was delivered, and in the 18 months I've had it I've raised that to the mid 80s on my commute (20 miles each way, Typical Midwestern weather/topography). Might get it closer to 90mpg next summer when warm weather returns. $16k bought a two year old car that stickered for $37k new. It had just 23k miles on it at the time. I like that it blends into traffic, without necessarily looking different like most hybrids seem to.

ericrugiero

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2020, 02:50:55 PM »
I purchased a spare set of wheels and good snow tires for my car last year rather than driving a 4WD vehicle with higher cost of ownership.  That is a great solution if the snow isn't deep enough for your car to drag.  The advantage is the snow tires help you brake and turn better rather than just accelerate.  It's also cheaper than two cars. 

If you need a bigger vehicle for trips or other reasons then it could make sense to have two or even to rent something if the use is occasional.   

http://bestride.com/news/technology/all-wheel-drive-vs-snow-tires-which-matters-more
« Last Edit: February 07, 2020, 02:57:25 PM by ericrugiero »

GodlessCommie

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2020, 03:17:12 PM »
For the car that doesn't have a 60-mile roundtrip, a used EV makes a fantastic choice. Nissan Leaf (2015 or later for a heat pump) or VW e-Golf or even Fiat 500e. Chevy Volt, 1-st or 2-nd gen, are also solid picks. Yes, range is not that great to begin with, and will be even shorter in Minnesota winter - but plenty enough if all driving is local. On the plus side, no maintenance and virtually no wear on the breaks. "Fuel" is dirt cheap, too, and depending on your area, there may be opportunities to charge for free.

big_owl

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2020, 04:14:51 PM »
Count me as one to disagree on AWD being overrated.  I know MMM likes to shit on AWD but my experience is opposite.  Of course if you don't live in an area that gets snow then year FWD is fine. 

But there have been dozens of times where my AWD Subaru as gotten us out of trouble vs. my wife's FWD Jetta.  All things equal there's no comparison between AWD and FWD in snow.  The Jetta is literally paralyzed in 1" of snow trying to get up our steep driveway whereas my Subaru is good up to a foot of snow.  The argument MMM make is that with good winter tires you don't need AWD.  True, but then I need to manage two sets of tires/wheels with all the expense and physical space limitations it puts on me.  Why would I want to use up the space in my garage to store two (or four) tires just for a few months in winter when I can just have an AWD car and use it without even thinking about it?  I'll pay a little extra money to not put up with the hassle of switching between summer and winter tires/wheels. 


Monkey Uncle

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2020, 06:25:20 PM »
4WD / AWD isn't all that useful in snow - certainly nowhere near as useful as winter tires.  Buy a good set of winter tires and mount 'em on steel rims.  Then put them on your fuel efficient vehicle for winter use, and switch 'em off spring/summer/fall.  Plus, you'll reap the benefits of having better grip in lower temperatures all winter long (even dry/clear roads won't grip all-seasons very well).

I grew up in Northern Ontario, in a town where we would get 12 - 16 ft of snow each year.  If it's too snowy for a small car to drive (more than two ft of snow unplowed on the road was usually about where I'd draw the line) isn't going to be safe in a large AWD vehicle either.  Wait until the snow stops and the plows get out, and you'll be fine with the smaller car.

Then there's no reason to own a second vehicle.

Sorry, but with two feet of unplowed snow on the road, you aren't going anywhere in any street legal vehicle, AWD or not.  Short of a monster truck, nothing has that much clearance. 

I live in an area that has a lot of hills and curves and averages about 70 inches of snow a year.  I my experience, a FWD sedan isn't going to handle more than a few inches of unplowed snow.  It gets stuck trying to go up hills or when attempting sharp turning maneuvers at low speed.  AWD/4WD can handle those situations, as long as the snow isn't deep enough to get plowed up in front of the front bumper and air dam.  If you're mostly driving on flat, plowed streets, FWD with good tires will be fine.

My advice for OP (assuming that your current vehicles really are past the point where you can repair them and continue to get good service out of them):

Vehicle 1: Get the smallest 5-10 year old Toyota or Honda sedan that you can stand, preferably with fewer than 100,000 miles.  Your wife drives a lot, and she needs a dependable vehicle to get to work, so you don't want to get something that's 3/4 worn out.  Stay away from Fords, GM, Nissan, Chrysler/Dodge, and pretty much everything else.  Pretty much nothing else in this vehicle class comes close to Toyota and Honda for long-term reliability.  Five year old and newer Subaru and Mazda sedans might be o.k., but the older ones appear to have somewhat sketchy reliability data.

Vehicle 2 (assuming you really need a second vehicle and can't get by with renting when the need arises):  This is going to depend on how much space you need.  If you don't need much space, look for a 2014 or newer Subaru Forester or Outback (the older ones have bad reliability data), or a similarly aged RAV 4, CR-V, or Mazda SUV.  If you need more space, look at 5-10 year old Toyota Highlander, Toyota 4 Runner, Honda Passport or Pilot.  Of course, you'll take a big hit on price and gas mileage going with those mid-size SUVs.  Again, stay away from Ford, GM, Nissan, Chrysler/Dodge, Land Rover, etc., all of which have bad long-term reliability records.

scottish

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2020, 07:26:30 PM »
Yeah, my Tacoma will start having trouble in 16-18 inches of snow*.    My wife's Yaris would need recovery at that point!

4wd is more useful if you live in a hilly region.    If it's pretty flat a front wheel drive with good tires is the way to go.    Unless you have unlimited funds...

One thing I've noticed is that the 4wd Tacoma costs almost exactly twice as much as the Yaris to operate.   It uses twice as much gas and parts cost twice as much.    The purchase price is about twice as much as well.

* on relatively flat roads

sixwings

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2020, 10:33:31 AM »
We have a 2011 subuaru forester, it's fantastic for what we want and very dependable.

penguintroopers

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2020, 04:44:57 PM »
Another Prius vote here. Great choice for a high daily driver.

Lucky13

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2020, 05:00:34 PM »
Little background: We live in Minnesota and want one very fuel efficient car and another car with AWD or 4WD that we would rarely use (I work from home) but that would be useful for family road trips, loading cargo when necessary and getting around on snowy days.
Is this common in your region? the idea that every family would need to own a 4x4 to get around in the snow seems excessive to me,  here when it snows the schools (and many businesses) just close. :D but if that's actually the case where you live, then there should be a lot of used one floating around, as people upgrade to bigger & better, you can pick up one for cheap and have more cash to put towards your daily driver.

lutorm

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2020, 05:03:22 PM »
The argument MMM make is that with good winter tires you don't need AWD.  True, but then I need to manage two sets of tires/wheels with all the expense and physical space limitations it puts on me.  Why would I want to use up the space in my garage to store two (or four) tires just for a few months in winter when I can just have an AWD car and use it without even thinking about it?  I'll pay a little extra money to not put up with the hassle of switching between summer and winter tires/wheels.
A little extra money? An AWD car vs 4 snow tires isn't exactly a small difference in cost.

Besides, even if you have an AWD car you still need snow tires if you regularly drive in snow so that you can, you know, stop and stuff.

ApacheStache

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2020, 05:25:33 PM »
Little background: We live in Minnesota and want one very fuel efficient car and another car with AWD or 4WD that we would rarely use (I work from home) but that would be useful for family road trips, loading cargo when necessary and getting around on snowy days.
Is this common in your region? here when it snows the schools (and many businesses) just close. :D but if that's actually the case where you live...

Unfortunately, for whatever reason, maybe it's a point of pride or there are too many incredibly snowy/icy days in the winter, the State of Minnesota does not close up shop when it snows, regardless of how much sense it would make to do otherwise. Some K-12 school districts and colleges will delay classes for 2-3 hours, and some of the more rural highways will close but hell would likely freeze over before the metro areas close down for the day. As a result, it's normal to see 500-800 spins outs, accidents or stuck vehicles on a super snowy rush hour commute.

As far as having a separate/dedicated AWD vehicle for the winter, I'm pretty sure that's not common. In High School I had a few friends that had separate winter vehicles because their summer vehicles were sports cars and clearly not meant for the snow, but that's about it as far as I'm aware of.

Syonyk

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2020, 10:56:43 PM »
Is this common in your region? the idea that every family would need to own a 4x4 to get around in the snow seems excessive to me,  here when it snows the schools (and many businesses) just close.

It depends on the area and how the plowing is.

Usually, if you're in town, on a bigger road/in a wealthy neighborhood, snow removal is tolerable and if you can get out of the driveway, it's not a big deal to get around.

If you're out in a more rural area, well... you're on your own.  And if you're in a very rural area, you're absolutely on your own.  So, do your neighbors cooperate to plow the road?

I've certainly known people in those areas who simply don't bother getting out until the plows come through.  But if the businesses and schools and such don't close, well... sometimes, you want to be able to get out.

A "winter beater" isn't that expensive to purchase, isn't that expensive to insure (since you don't put many miles on it), and generally isn't that bad to maintain (see fairly few miles).

If you do it right, they aren't even that expensive to put snow tires on.  Or, you get studded snow tires, instead of studless.  The studded ones are typically a hard rubber that lasts far, far longer (year-wise) than the magic sponge that is the studless type (which in my experience is sketchy the third year, and don't expect more than three years of magic out of them).

It's not the most super duper cost optimal thing, but if you're dropping $10k or $15 on a "the roads are crap" vehicle, you're really doing it wrong.  An old Subaru that leaks oil is perfectly fine as a winter beater.  $2k-$5k is more than enough for such a thing, and they last an awfully long time because there just aren't too many miles on them (though invest in undercarriage washes).

This forum is weirdly city-centric.  The cost for owning an extra vehicle, if you're more rural, is minimal.  Couple hundred a year, if that, for an awful lot of extra utility.  Plus miles driven, but those are typically kept off the primary vehicle.

raylit20

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2020, 11:25:17 PM »
People will recommend the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord for many good reasons. Those are going to be your best all-around cars. The new Toyota Corolla Hatchback is also an excellent and very useful car.

My only suggestion is to avoid anything manufactured by General Motors. I say this as I was a mechanic for many years and were it not for GM products we would have gone out of business. They're not designed for longevity anymore like they used to be.


big_owl

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2020, 08:14:14 AM »
The argument MMM make is that with good winter tires you don't need AWD.  True, but then I need to manage two sets of tires/wheels with all the expense and physical space limitations it puts on me.  Why would I want to use up the space in my garage to store two (or four) tires just for a few months in winter when I can just have an AWD car and use it without even thinking about it?  I'll pay a little extra money to not put up with the hassle of switching between summer and winter tires/wheels.
A little extra money? An AWD car vs 4 snow tires isn't exactly a small difference in cost.

Besides, even if you have an AWD car you still need snow tires if you regularly drive in snow so that you can, you know, stop and stuff.

Well, you know, not really.  3min of research:

1. Toyota Camry MSRP: $24.4k (31mpg hwy non-hybrid)
2. Honda Accord MSRP: $24.02k (32mpg hwy non-hybrid)
3. Subaru Forester MSRP: $24.5k (33mpg hwy)

Basically the same price for a base model and mpg are similar and the Subaru is even a wagon.  And no, you don't really need snow tires as long as your have decent all weather tires and the snow you're driving in doesn't overrun the undercarriage.  Stopping in deep snow (not ice) is also rather easy given the extra resistance of the snow.  In 20yrs of Subaru ownership I've not spent one dollar of maintenance cost specifically due to the AWD.  Yeah I've paid a little more for gas but it's worth not having to worry about switching or storing wheels/tires in the winter. 

friedmmj

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2020, 09:14:57 AM »
I recommend a 2014 or 2015 Mazda 3.  Cheap fun and reliable.  Gets 35 MPG.

scottish

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2020, 01:05:58 PM »
The argument MMM make is that with good winter tires you don't need AWD.  True, but then I need to manage two sets of tires/wheels with all the expense and physical space limitations it puts on me.  Why would I want to use up the space in my garage to store two (or four) tires just for a few months in winter when I can just have an AWD car and use it without even thinking about it?  I'll pay a little extra money to not put up with the hassle of switching between summer and winter tires/wheels.
A little extra money? An AWD car vs 4 snow tires isn't exactly a small difference in cost.

Besides, even if you have an AWD car you still need snow tires if you regularly drive in snow so that you can, you know, stop and stuff.

Well, you know, not really.  3min of research:

1. Toyota Camry MSRP: $24.4k (31mpg hwy non-hybrid)
2. Honda Accord MSRP: $24.02k (32mpg hwy non-hybrid)
3. Subaru Forester MSRP: $24.5k (33mpg hwy)

Basically the same price for a base model and mpg are similar and the Subaru is even a wagon.  And no, you don't really need snow tires as long as your have decent all weather tires and the snow you're driving in doesn't overrun the undercarriage.  Stopping in deep snow (not ice) is also rather easy given the extra resistance of the snow.  In 20yrs of Subaru ownership I've not spent one dollar of maintenance cost specifically due to the AWD.  Yeah I've paid a little more for gas but it's worth not having to worry about switching or storing wheels/tires in the winter.

Hey just to be clear, when we talk about snow tires, we mean tires with this icon on the sidewall, correct?


GuitarStv

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2020, 01:29:53 PM »
And no, you don't really need snow tires as long as your have decent all weather tires and the snow you're driving in doesn't overrun the undercarriage.  Stopping in deep snow (not ice) is also rather easy given the extra resistance of the snow.  In 20yrs of Subaru ownership I've not spent one dollar of maintenance cost specifically due to the AWD.  Yeah I've paid a little more for gas but it's worth not having to worry about switching or storing wheels/tires in the winter.

AWD doesn't help you corner better.  It doesn't help you stop.  The only benefit it has in the winter is that you can get up to speed better.

All-season tires are better than summer slicks, but they just don't perform all that well in cold temperatures.  They are worse on ice (48% more distance to stop), and in snow (66% more distance to stop) than winter tires (https://www.familyhandyman.com/automotive/tires/snow-tires-vs-all-season-tires/, https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/features/tire-test-all-season-vs-snow-vs-summer.html).  Winter tires also perform better on dry pavement when the temperatures are below freezing.


The AWD vs winter tires thing is well settled at this point:
"But can all-wheel drive really save you when the weather turns ugly? It provides some benefit, but it may be insufficient to get you through a grueling storm.

All-wheel drive is about getting your car moving from a dead stop—not about braking or steering­—and you should be aware of its limitations.

Through weeks of driving in snowy, unplowed conditions at Consumer Reports’ 327-acre test center in Connecticut, we found that all-wheel drive didn’t aid in braking or in certain cornering situations. Our evaluations conclusively showed that using winter tires matters more than having all-wheel drive in many situations, and that the difference on snow and ice can be significant."
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2015/09/do-you-really-need-awd-in-the-snow/index.htm

"I hear it all the time, living on the East Coast: "Well, I need an all-wheel drive car because it rains and snows sometimes." But those in the know are well aware that the right kind of rubber is really more important than anything else.

This video from the UK's AutoExpress seeks to prove just how true that is. They get two Ford Kugas (Ford Escapes to us Americans), one with front-wheel drive and one with all-wheel drive, and they see which one is better at powering up a snowy slope.

The front-drive car doesn't make it very far up the hill with its summer tires — and the all-wheel drive version fails to do any better with the same tires. When equipped with winter tires, the front-driver obliterates the all-wheel drive Kuga that's still stuck on summer tires."
- https://jalopnik.com/lets-settle-the-winter-tires-vs-all-wheel-drive-debat-1462180324

"In reality, All-Wheel Drive will provide you with some assistance in snowy weather, however, a front-wheel drive vehicle with winter tires is much more effective."
- https://www.wilsonvilletoyota.com/blog/driving-safely/awd-vs-winter-tires-which-is-best-for-winter-driving/

"“No doubt, an AWD vehicle on decent all-season tires will get moving pretty well,” explains Woody Rogers. He’s the head of Tire Rack’s testing team, so he has evaluated virtually every tire there is, in a variety of conditions. “But with AWD, you can get moving easily enough that you can overestimate your ability to stop and turn. Every vehicle uses the same four contact patches to stop and turn. AWD is not a benefit there.”"
- https://www.outsideonline.com/2144166/awd-doesnt-matter-winter-tires-do

"For the nasty snow, conventional wisdom holds that you’ll need a massive, all-wheel drive SUV to make it to work on time.

In reality, the right tires are far more important than all-wheel drive or a few inches of ground clearance."
- https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/22/benefits-of-winter-tires-over-awd.html



I mean, I can find you some more articles if you would like . . . but there really isn't anyone arguing that AWD is a suitable replacement for winter tires.

MilesTeg

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2020, 01:49:02 PM »
And no, you don't really need snow tires as long as your have decent all weather tires and the snow you're driving in doesn't overrun the undercarriage.  Stopping in deep snow (not ice) is also rather easy given the extra resistance of the snow.  In 20yrs of Subaru ownership I've not spent one dollar of maintenance cost specifically due to the AWD.  Yeah I've paid a little more for gas but it's worth not having to worry about switching or storing wheels/tires in the winter.

AWD doesn't help you corner better.  It doesn't help you stop.  The only benefit it has in the winter is that you can get up to speed better.

This is not quite correct. A 4/AWD system will indeed help you corner or perform any other maneuver whenever the vehicle is under power. It just does nothing for you when the vehicle us not under (engine) power. Proper tyres are the most important factor regardless.

big_owl

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2020, 01:54:06 PM »
And no, you don't really need snow tires as long as your have decent all weather tires and the snow you're driving in doesn't overrun the undercarriage.  Stopping in deep snow (not ice) is also rather easy given the extra resistance of the snow.  In 20yrs of Subaru ownership I've not spent one dollar of maintenance cost specifically due to the AWD.  Yeah I've paid a little more for gas but it's worth not having to worry about switching or storing wheels/tires in the winter.

AWD doesn't help you corner better.  It doesn't help you stop.  The only benefit it has in the winter is that you can get up to speed better.

All-season tires are better than summer slicks, but they just don't perform all that well in cold temperatures.  They are worse on ice (48% more distance to stop), and in snow (66% more distance to stop) than winter tires (https://www.familyhandyman.com/automotive/tires/snow-tires-vs-all-season-tires/, https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/features/tire-test-all-season-vs-snow-vs-summer.html).  Winter tires also perform better on dry pavement when the temperatures are below freezing.


The AWD vs winter tires thing is well settled at this point:
"But can all-wheel drive really save you when the weather turns ugly? It provides some benefit, but it may be insufficient to get you through a grueling storm.

All-wheel drive is about getting your car moving from a dead stop—not about braking or steering­—and you should be aware of its limitations.

Through weeks of driving in snowy, unplowed conditions at Consumer Reports’ 327-acre test center in Connecticut, we found that all-wheel drive didn’t aid in braking or in certain cornering situations. Our evaluations conclusively showed that using winter tires matters more than having all-wheel drive in many situations, and that the difference on snow and ice can be significant."
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2015/09/do-you-really-need-awd-in-the-snow/index.htm

"I hear it all the time, living on the East Coast: "Well, I need an all-wheel drive car because it rains and snows sometimes." But those in the know are well aware that the right kind of rubber is really more important than anything else.

This video from the UK's AutoExpress seeks to prove just how true that is. They get two Ford Kugas (Ford Escapes to us Americans), one with front-wheel drive and one with all-wheel drive, and they see which one is better at powering up a snowy slope.

The front-drive car doesn't make it very far up the hill with its summer tires — and the all-wheel drive version fails to do any better with the same tires. When equipped with winter tires, the front-driver obliterates the all-wheel drive Kuga that's still stuck on summer tires."
- https://jalopnik.com/lets-settle-the-winter-tires-vs-all-wheel-drive-debat-1462180324

"In reality, All-Wheel Drive will provide you with some assistance in snowy weather, however, a front-wheel drive vehicle with winter tires is much more effective."
- https://www.wilsonvilletoyota.com/blog/driving-safely/awd-vs-winter-tires-which-is-best-for-winter-driving/

"“No doubt, an AWD vehicle on decent all-season tires will get moving pretty well,” explains Woody Rogers. He’s the head of Tire Rack’s testing team, so he has evaluated virtually every tire there is, in a variety of conditions. “But with AWD, you can get moving easily enough that you can overestimate your ability to stop and turn. Every vehicle uses the same four contact patches to stop and turn. AWD is not a benefit there.”"
- https://www.outsideonline.com/2144166/awd-doesnt-matter-winter-tires-do

"For the nasty snow, conventional wisdom holds that you’ll need a massive, all-wheel drive SUV to make it to work on time.

In reality, the right tires are far more important than all-wheel drive or a few inches of ground clearance."
- https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/22/benefits-of-winter-tires-over-awd.html



I mean, I can find you some more articles if you would like . . . but there really isn't anyone arguing that AWD is a suitable replacement for winter tires.

Sorry Stv I'm not really sure why you wasted your time to find all those articles because they basically confirm exactly what I said.  They say that AWD is better than FWD except if you have winter tires on your FWD car (imagine if you had winter tires on your AWD car).  Which was the whole point of my post...AWD is better because I don't need to buy and store separate tires in my garage for winter.  Tires take up a lot of space and it's a hassle to pay somebody to swap them out every year unless I have extra rims just for the winter in which case I can do it myself but which means even more cost for the price of the rims. 

I have a couple decades experience comparing FWD vs. AWD traction in snow and AWD wins the day every day all day long with regular tires.

Yeah, news flash AWD doesn't help you stop faster, just like I said.  In other late breaking news....dog bites bone.

GuitarStv

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2020, 03:05:34 PM »
You do have to store the spare set of tires somewhere . . . and then spend the hour or so swapping 'em at the beginning and end of winter.  But they're not very expensive.  My current set was 400$, and was mounted on 40$ rims.  As long as you're aware of the inferiority of AWD to winter tires and are consciously choosing it . . . more power to you.

Car Jack

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2020, 05:35:10 PM »
I think your idea of an Outback as the AWD vehicle is a good one.  It has more space than a Forester, there are a gazillion of them out there (including the junkyard, where I'd go for parts), it's part of a car company that builds Legos (you can bolt pretty much any Subaru engine into any other Subaru with minor changes).  It has decent clearance and if you want to cheat just a bit, use powerdog tire calculator and find a snow tire size just about 5% bigger to increase clearance just that much more.

Don't worry about the comments that a Volt or Camry or Corolla with snows will be fine.  I think I'm in an area like you and I've spent 20 minutes with our Ford Fusion on snows just getting it out of the way so I could put the snowplow on my Wrangler.  I think a lot of city slickers think those of us who have to drive through actual snow don't exist.  In our family, my 2 college, commuting sons drive Subaru Crosstreks on snows, the wife drives a Legacy on snows, I've got my Wrangler on snows and the Fusion is an extra vehicle that my mom gave us when she bought a new Subaru.

For hauling, I'd suggest getting a trailer and put a hitch on the Outback.  I've done that and hauled a complete, new living room set on the trailer which would no way fit in any pickup.

wpgdude

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2020, 08:22:22 PM »
If you want a cheap and fairly fuel efficient and very practical winter car / second car look for an AWD Matrix or Vibe.  My wife drives a first generation vibe and while its not overly quick with 4 great winter tires the thing is unstoppable.  We have driven it many times from Winnipeg to Minneapolis and the only time we've been stranded is when the interstate shuts down.  You should be able to find a lower mileage one for under $5k.  Unless you have more than 2 kids, buy a cargo box for the roof and you easily have enough room for all of your family trips.  If you don't want AWD get a regular vibe and enjoy even better fuel economy.  Remember these are corollas underneath and run forever.  As for the primary car if you want cargo flexibility get a fit, otherwise get 2010-15 civic or corolla. Just my 2 cents

AccidentialMustache

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2020, 09:05:15 PM »
Any commentary from the "snow tires" folks on the transition band? Eg "south of Chicago" but "north of St Louis" still get snow/rain/ice/slush? Mostly slush. Its snow the first day then its slush the next couple, plus sometimes melt/refreeze ice.

The previous set of tires we had on the fit were all seasons that rated well for snow, but they were worse for stopping in our slushy mix than the previous factory spec all-seasons were.

Lucky13

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2020, 09:22:18 PM »
This forum is weirdly city-centric.  The cost for owning an extra vehicle, if you're more rural, is minimal.  Couple hundred a year, if that, for an awful lot of extra utility.  Plus miles driven, but those are typically kept off the primary vehicle.
yeah good point, one of my hesitations in owning a second car is where I'd park it, which is city-centric problem. If I lived more rural I fear I'd have a fleet of cars and motrocycles. :D  anyway it's good to hear your perspective on this!

Syonyk

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2020, 10:40:20 PM »
Any commentary from the "snow tires" folks on the transition band? Eg "south of Chicago" but "north of St Louis" still get snow/rain/ice/slush? Mostly slush. Its snow the first day then its slush the next couple, plus sometimes melt/refreeze ice.

Des Moines, Iowa area count?

If you're going to use them regularly, don't find yourself in loose snow that often, and don't mind a three year service life, the studless tires (Blizzaks, etc) are ideal.  They grip loose snow acceptably, grip ice of all forms (glaze ice from frost, packed snow, etc) amazingly.  Just be aware that they're really quite limited in service life - by the third year, the magic is leaving.

If you're dealing more with packed snow and ice (such as a rural road that just gets packed down, then melts and glazes), plus some loose snow (say, a rural road before it's been packed down), studded snow tires are the better option.  They have a more open tread pattern that clears loose snow far better than the studless tires, and you can rely on the carbide studs to dig in and grip the ice.  They're just no good at all on glaze ice - not quite as bad as an all season, but not far from it.  They just can't grip.

Basically, if you're in a city that has snow plows, get studless, and if you're not, get studded.  That's the handwave advice I have.

I'd rather have FWD and snow tires than AWD and all seasons, but I'd rather have AWD and snow tires than anything else in bad weather, because you can pretty much ignore the snow and ice.  Except for other people.

I don't have anything with snow tires now, mostly because I no longer live in a place that gets nearly as much snow, the snow we do get tends to melt by afternoon, and it's rare we have anywhere we absolutely have to be - if the weather is bad, we just stay home.  Or I take a Ural out (Russian motorcycle with a sidecar, 2WD option, it's almost as capable as the truck in snow).  I walk to work, on the property, and my main annoyance with snow is that I track it into my office and sometimes have to mess with my backup generator in it.

yeah good point, one of my hesitations in owning a second car is where I'd park it, which is city-centric problem. If I lived more rural I fear I'd have a fleet of cars and motrocycles. :D  anyway it's good to hear your perspective on this!

No problem.  Happy to offer a mostly useless perspective on the forum.

I have a fleet of vehicles, and it really doesn't bother me that much.  Yes, I pay a bit more in insurance than I might if I totally optimized, but the annual carrying costs of the extra stuff is fairly low, they're either useful or enjoyable, and it keeps miles off the truck.  The Volt is the most efficient vehicle so gets the most miles.  If I'm going somewhere and my wife needs to take the kids somewhere, I'll take a Ural typically, though if it's exceedingly bad out, I might take the truck - it gets a few "awful weather" trips a year, which is still cheaper than owning another car.  And if I need to haul something big/heavy, or we're going out on gravel/dirt/etc, we take the truck.  I can tow up around 14k if I really want to, but I prefer to keep it below 10k, especially with a receiver hitch.  It'll handle it fine, but I'd really rather use a 5th wheel for anything bigger.  In general, as of right now, I don't have to tow heavier stuff that often because most of the heavy trailers in my circle out here are gooseneck - and I don't have the adapter plate for that, so someone else will tow it.

Given that stuff doesn't really rust out here, and we're not short on space, vehicles with few miles a year on them last about forever.  I expect my truck to last most of the rest of my life with decent care.

I'm not MMM-standard "Tow it with an overloaded Honda Fit, it's fine," because I regularly haul stuff that a Fit won't tow.  Let me know when it can haul a heavy flatbed and a yard and a half of gravel, which is what I've been hauling lately...

Monkey Uncle

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2020, 04:52:02 AM »
There's another option in the tire debate.  I run all-terrain tires on my AWD mid-sized SUV.  I've never had an issue in loose snow, packed snow, or ice.  No switching back and forth with the seasons.  Of course, all-terrains will not last as long as all-season tires.

Clean Shaven

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2020, 08:46:54 AM »
There's another option in the tire debate.  I run all-terrain tires on my AWD mid-sized SUV.  I've never had an issue in loose snow, packed snow, or ice.  No switching back and forth with the seasons.  Of course, all-terrains will not last as long as all-season tires.
And to add another option:  Google "all weather" tires. These are 3PMSF rated all seasons - rubber compounds you can leave on year round, but with closer to winter tire performance in the snow. Could be a good option for car owners who don't want or don't need dedicated winter tires.

Just Joe

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2020, 10:56:44 AM »
Count me as one to disagree on AWD being overrated.  I know MMM likes to shit on AWD but my experience is opposite.  Of course if you don't live in an area that gets snow then year FWD is fine. 

But there have been dozens of times where my AWD Subaru as gotten us out of trouble vs. my wife's FWD Jetta.  All things equal there's no comparison between AWD and FWD in snow.  The Jetta is literally paralyzed in 1" of snow trying to get up our steep driveway whereas my Subaru is good up to a foot of snow.  The argument MMM make is that with good winter tires you don't need AWD.  True, but then I need to manage two sets of tires/wheels with all the expense and physical space limitations it puts on me.  Why would I want to use up the space in my garage to store two (or four) tires just for a few months in winter when I can just have an AWD car and use it without even thinking about it?  I'll pay a little extra money to not put up with the hassle of switching between summer and winter tires/wheels.

I would argue that AWD makes a big difference depending on how steep the hills you drive are. Around here the hills are steep enough that a FWD car can shift its weight towards the rear of the car leaving the front tires pawing for traction unsuccessfully. I've owned two AWD vehicles now and the first is very light, and the AWD comes on often in slippery conditions (mud, grassy fields, wet leaves, snow, ice). That vehicle relies on AWD to climb a gravel driveway we visit (I've done it with and without the front to back driveshaft installed. Without AWD the car struggles).

My other AWD vehicle is heavier and more sure footed although the AWD system is much more sophisticated and its not as easy to feel it shift power around in low traction situations. There is a dash display that shows the situation.

WHAT you drive is important too. I've owned four cylinder FWD cars that were so light they had trouble when a heavier V6 FWD car was more sure footed.

Oh and snow tires are a non-starter here b/c of the wild temp changes. Might get snow a few times per winter but we also get some 60F days too which I read is hard on snow tires. One winter strategy doesn't work coast to coast. Most of us are probably using the right strategy for our piece of the map. 
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 12:09:41 PM by Just Joe »

AccidentialMustache

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2020, 05:24:17 PM »
Any commentary from the "snow tires" folks on the transition band? Eg "south of Chicago" but "north of St Louis" still get snow/rain/ice/slush? Mostly slush. Its snow the first day then its slush the next couple, plus sometimes melt/refreeze ice.

Des Moines, Iowa area count?

If you're going to use them regularly, don't find yourself in loose snow that often, and don't mind a three year service life, the studless tires (Blizzaks, etc) are ideal.  They grip loose snow acceptably, grip ice of all forms (glaze ice from frost, packed snow, etc) amazingly.  Just be aware that they're really quite limited in service life - by the third year, the magic is leaving.

If you're dealing more with packed snow and ice (such as a rural road that just gets packed down, then melts and glazes), plus some loose snow (say, a rural road before it's been packed down), studded snow tires are the better option.  They have a more open tread pattern that clears loose snow far better than the studless tires, and you can rely on the carbide studs to dig in and grip the ice.  They're just no good at all on glaze ice - not quite as bad as an all season, but not far from it.  They just can't grip.

Basically, if you're in a city that has snow plows, get studless, and if you're not, get studded.  That's the handwave advice I have.

I'm midwest and in town, but more IL than IA. Des Moins is more or less equal to Chicago snow from what I can tell, and I've lived in the burbs before. They get snow and it stays snow. I'm further south and I get snow but it turns to slush pretty quick.

Looks like getting tires might be fun in that its closeout season on them already and there's only 2 in my car's size at the obvious vendor. I guess that's enough for the drive wheels, but... maybe this is a next year thing.

MilesTeg

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Re: Cars?
« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2020, 05:57:35 PM »
Any commentary from the "snow tires" folks on the transition band? Eg "south of Chicago" but "north of St Louis" still get snow/rain/ice/slush? Mostly slush. Its snow the first day then its slush the next couple, plus sometimes melt/refreeze ice.

Des Moines, Iowa area count?

If you're going to use them regularly, don't find yourself in loose snow that often, and don't mind a three year service life, the studless tires (Blizzaks, etc) are ideal.  They grip loose snow acceptably, grip ice of all forms (glaze ice from frost, packed snow, etc) amazingly.  Just be aware that they're really quite limited in service life - by the third year, the magic is leaving.

If you're dealing more with packed snow and ice (such as a rural road that just gets packed down, then melts and glazes), plus some loose snow (say, a rural road before it's been packed down), studded snow tires are the better option.  They have a more open tread pattern that clears loose snow far better than the studless tires, and you can rely on the carbide studs to dig in and grip the ice.  They're just no good at all on glaze ice - not quite as bad as an all season, but not far from it.  They just can't grip.

Basically, if you're in a city that has snow plows, get studless, and if you're not, get studded.  That's the handwave advice I have.

I'm midwest and in town, but more IL than IA. Des Moins is more or less equal to Chicago snow from what I can tell, and I've lived in the burbs before. They get snow and it stays snow. I'm further south and I get snow but it turns to slush pretty quick.

Looks like getting tires might be fun in that its closeout season on them already and there's only 2 in my car's size at the obvious vendor. I guess that's enough for the drive wheels, but... maybe this is a next year thing.

Yeah, don't put winter tires only on your drive wheels. That's in some ways worse than running all seasons.