carpenter laid off, considering career change, advice appreciated.

[samanil]

Hi Mustachians,

I was just laid off from my carpentry job. The silver lining is that I can probably get unemployment for a while, which may be what my body needs most. I burned out last winter after trying to commute in the rain on my bike, and never fully recovered from it. I was implementing mustachianism but WAY over did it, and didn't take into account my own limitations.

I can't help but wonder if I am just too sensitive for this profession, and that I should look for something else. It's very physically and mentally demanding, you're often not treated well or appreciated, and you have to be outside in inclement weather for extended periods of time. I believe I am a highly sensitive person (HSP) and doing carpentry on a jobsite with a bunch of other carpenters is too much for me. It seems like I'm always struggling psychologically with something work related.

That being said, what are my options? I have a degree in psychology, 5 years of experience doing construction, 5 years experience lifeguarding, and some interesting life experience (hiked the PCT in 2016). I'm 34 with a net worth of around 150k.

I'm thinking maybe a job with the city (of Seattle) that isn't particularly demanding but pays decently with decent benefits? My goal is simply something that will allow me to save a little (maybe max out an IRA), allow me to have mostly positive social experiences, and is low stress. I am more Coast FIRE oriented than regular FIRE, as I think I need some work to give me routine and opportunities to socialize. I'll most likely not have kids.

Do you think a temp agency may be a helpful resource? Any other resources that may be of help?

Thanks a lot for any advice.

[Turtle]

What are your thoughts on handyman/small projects/repairs type carpentry?  It seems like there would be demand for that.

You could try your hand at odd jobs and see how that turns out -- fewer people to deal with at a time.

[Midwest_Handlebar]

Agree on the handyman business if you want to stay in construction. I like this guy on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheHandymanBusiness. Apply for unemployment ASAP and start taking on side projects until you get your feet under you. You can make good money just by doing decks/fences and handyman work for property management companies.

If you don't want to stay in construction, you need to narrow down your job search a little more. I've heard being a phlebotomist is a good ROI?

Working for someone else has always been more tolerable when I was working on the side knowing I could bail if I needed to. Good luck and don't over think it, some people are just jerks to work for/with.

[samanil]

Agree on the handyman business if you want to stay in construction. I like this guy on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheHandymanBusiness. Apply for unemployment ASAP and start taking on side projects until you get your feet under you. You can make good money just by doing decks/fences and handyman work for property management companies.

If you don't want to stay in construction, you need to narrow down your job search a little more. I've heard being a phlebotomist is a good ROI?

Working for someone else has always been more tolerable when I was working on the side knowing I could bail if I needed to. Good luck and don't over think it, some people are just jerks to work for/with.

I like the guy you linked to, I have actually watched a lot of his videos. I have thought about going out on my own, but I don't think the stress of self employment is for me. I want to be able to clock in and clock out, without a lot of stress, and have the energy and peace of mind to do things like meditation and yoga when I'm not at work. My friend works for the city doing a pretty easy job and makes almost $30 an hour with good benefits. That would be enough for me to save a substantial amount without burning myself out.

Edit: I want to take my high sensitivity into account when planning my next move.

[Midwest_Handlebar]

It doesn't have to be an all or nothing situation. If you don't want to do construction work at all, that's one thing, but you have a skill set that can make much more than $30/hour whenever you want. Pursue the steady job with the city, but do a job or two on the weekend for yourself and see how you like it. My friend quit his job as a CPA and now works for himself doing carpentry. He loves the freedom to say no to jobs he doesn't want to do and makes really good money.

Also, not sure what you mean by high sensitivity. Can you explain?

[lhamo]

Seattle Center has an opening for carpenters at $38.45/hour -- early shift (5am-1pm) would suck in the winter but give you lots of time for outdoor stuff in the warmer months:

https://www.governmentjobs.com/careers/seattle/jobs/3535558/carpenter?keywords=carpentry&pagetype=jobOpportunitiesJobs

I wouldn't write off working for yourself.  It is HARD to find good handypeople.  I've got some small jobs I'd be happy to throw your way if you are interested (pm me -- Im in far NE Seattle if location is an issue).  Once you have a few references you can basically pick what kind of jobs you want based on word of mouth.  If you only want to work indoors, you can set that as a limit.  One guy near me who posted last year on Nextdoor was overwhelmed with requests within 24 hours.  Other people I have contacted have mostly all said they are too busy. 

You could also try getting into more specialized/high end carpentry work, if you have the skills.  A friend of mine is married to a guy who just builds fancy staircases.  He is booked out months in advance.  Start getting word of mouth referrals for fancy cabinetry, etc. in certain zip codes and you will probably have jobs and money coming out your ears.  There is far more demand for high quality, timely work than people who can produce it.

I have also seen a few really interesting custom furniture guys advertising on local Facebook/Nextdoor groups.  One guy had a really nice/simple model coat hanger piece he was asking $200$240 for.  His sample was maple walnut but he could do other hardwoods by request.  It didn't look that hard to make.  Another guy is making really nice custom hardwood chairs.  Also a simple design, but really attractive.  Again, if you get a market going with something like that (replicating MCM designs, maybe?) you will probably have more demand than you can fill.

(The coatrack guy was on Nextdoor, not Facebook -- Zach H in Meadowbrook, not sure his posts will show up in neighborhoods farther out)

[clarkfan1979]

Hi Mustachians,

I was just laid off from my carpentry job. The silver lining is that I can probably get unemployment for a while, which may be what my body needs most. I burned out last winter after trying to commute in the rain on my bike, and never fully recovered from it. I was implementing mustachianism but WAY over did it, and didn't take into account my own limitations.

I can't help but wonder if I am just too sensitive for this profession, and that I should look for something else. It's very physically and mentally demanding, you're often not treated well or appreciated, and you have to be outside in inclement weather for extended periods of time. I believe I am a highly sensitive person (HSP) and doing carpentry on a jobsite with a bunch of other carpenters is too much for me. It seems like I'm always struggling psychologically with something work related.

That being said, what are my options? I have a degree in psychology, 5 years of experience doing construction, 5 years experience lifeguarding, and some interesting life experience (hiked the PCT in 2016). I'm 34 with a net worth of around 150k.

I'm thinking maybe a job with the city (of Seattle) that isn't particularly demanding but pays decently with decent benefits? My goal is simply something that will allow me to save a little (maybe max out an IRA), allow me to have mostly positive social experiences, and is low stress. I am more Coast FIRE oriented than regular FIRE, as I think I need some work to give me routine and opportunities to socialize. I'll most likely not have kids.

Do you think a temp agency may be a helpful resource? Any other resources that may be of help?

Thanks a lot for any advice.

Because you said "Seattle" you need to start your own handyman/carpentry business. You might need to take a few less desirable jobs to get started. However, you will eventually have excellent working conditions because you will have so much business opportunities that you only say yes to best ones that suit your interests and working conditions.

You unemployment checks are going to be the perfect runway to getting your business off the ground. Please provide updates and document your progress. You are going to do very well.

[samanil]

It doesn't have to be an all or nothing situation. If you don't want to do construction work at all, that's one thing, but you have a skill set that can make much more than $30/hour whenever you want. Pursue the steady job with the city, but do a job or two on the weekend for yourself and see how you like it. My friend quit his job as a CPA and now works for himself doing carpentry. He loves the freedom to say no to jobs he doesn't want to do and makes really good money.

Also, not sure what you mean by high sensitivity. Can you explain?

I appreciate your synthesis--I think that might be a good idea, having the secure chill job, and then doing side jobs on the weekend if I feel up for it. The issue is I have tried to side hustle before, and burned out badly doing it, pretty quickly (in about 1 year), and I still haven't recovered over a year later. That ties into the high sensitivity...

A highly sensitive person is a type of person who gets overwhelmed and stressed easily, and if they don't honor their sensitivity can easily end up depressed, anxious, burned out etc. If I feel time pressure or financial pressure or like I'm in over my head it can quickly tank my mood. I used to be a lifeguard and in many ways that was perfect, as it wasn't very demanding and was usually soothing

Edit: for example, when someone is rude to me I get a headache immediately. I'm a bit of a marshmallow, I guess. But the upside is that I often listen to music and feel euphoric tingling rippling up and down my body; when I read books ideas often have an intense impact on me, etc.

[Midwest_Handlebar]

Got it, you want/need something super low stress. The least stressful thing I can possibly think of is doing custom furniture/bars/millwork on the weekends to appreciative customers. If you're good you can set the rules. It takes you 4 weeks instead of 3, no big deal, set expectations up front.

You live in a great market (lots of $) with easy access to material. Go make some epoxy tables, those are hot right now.

I don't have a solution for how to stop people being rude to you, but therapy might help. When you're an employee for someone else, you have far less power in the relationship than if you're hired to do a job. The power dynamics can change immediately and you're stuck getting 100% of your income from an asshole. If you sense that someone would be a terrible customer, you don't take the job.

Have you tried Marijuana for your stress? Again you're in a great city for it.

[samanil]

Seattle Center has an opening for carpenters at $38.45/hour -- early shift (5am-1pm) would suck in the winter but give you lots of time for outdoor stuff in the warmer months:

https://www.governmentjobs.com/careers/seattle/jobs/3535558/carpenter?keywords=carpentry&pagetype=jobOpportunitiesJobs

I wouldn't write off working for yourself.  It is HARD to find good handypeople.  I've got some small jobs I'd be happy to throw your way if you are interested (pm me -- Im in far NE Seattle if location is an issue).  Once you have a few references you can basically pick what kind of jobs you want based on word of mouth.  If you only want to work indoors, you can set that as a limit.  One guy near me who posted last year on Nextdoor was overwhelmed with requests within 24 hours.  Other people I have contacted have mostly all said they are too busy. 

You could also try getting into more specialized/high end carpentry work, if you have the skills.  A friend of mine is married to a guy who just builds fancy staircases.  He is booked out months in advance.  Start getting word of mouth referrals for fancy cabinetry, etc. in certain zip codes and you will probably have jobs and money coming out your ears.  There is far more demand for high quality, timely work than people who can produce it.

I have also seen a few really interesting custom furniture guys advertising on local Facebook/Nextdoor groups.  One guy had a really nice/simple model coat hanger piece he was asking $200$240 for.  His sample was maple walnut but he could do other hardwoods by request.  It didn't look that hard to make.  Another guy is making really nice custom hardwood chairs.  Also a simple design, but really attractive.  Again, if you get a market going with something like that (replicating MCM designs, maybe?) you will probably have more demand than you can fill.

(The coatrack guy was on Nextdoor, not Facebook -- Zach H in Meadowbrook, not sure his posts will show up in neighborhoods farther out)

Making $38 an hour is very intriguing. However I would almost surely crumble psychologically if I had to spend a lot of time outside in the dark rain early in the morning. Maybe I could apply in the spring and give it a test run in the summer... However at what point do I accept that I'm not cut out for a certain type of work?

I like all of your optimism, and thank you very much for offering me some work. I may take you up on that in a few weeks, once I've recovered from the layoff (doing pretty poorly psychologically right now).

My goal was to put in another 5 years working for someone else, really build my skills and confidence (and net worth), and then take stock of where I'm at, and possibly go out on my own. Currently, I just don't feel ready, skills wise, confidence wise, tools wise, mental health wise.

[Sibley]

Just because you get overwhelmed and stressed easily doesn't mean you can't work with it. Good coping methods (not drinking/drugs/destructive behaviors) will help you out immensely, and given that you've been struggling so much already, there's a good chance you just don't have them in place. Take this period of quiet to help reset, and figure out how to cope better. Building resilience will help.

Life isn't always going to be easy. You're far better off in the long term learning how to roll with the bumps in life rather than allowing them to beat you up.

As for work - I've got a friend who is a carpenter/plumber/electrician/mechanic/can do just about anything on a house he wants, and he has as much work as he wants from a local property management company. Actually, he has more than he wants, but that's because he sucks at setting and enforcing boundaries. That's on him. He also does side jobs as he chooses. He's taking pity on me and doing my bathroom floor because I can't find anyone to do it.

[samanil]

Because you said "Seattle" you need to start your own handyman/carpentry business. You might need to take a few less desirable jobs to get started. However, you will eventually have excellent working conditions because you will have so much business opportunities that you only say yes to best ones that suit your interests and working conditions.

You unemployment checks are going to be the perfect runway to getting your business off the ground. Please provide updates and document your progress. You are going to do very well.

Thank you for your optimism, you don't happen to be carrying a concealed optimism gun, do you? ;)

[Midwest_Handlebar]

https://www.thumbtack.com/instant-results/?zip_code=98101&is_zip_code_changed=true&category_pk=109125193401647362&project_pk=474258317475455000

When you feel up to it, create a profile on Thumbtack $60-$100 / hour seems to be the going rate.

[samanil]

Just because you get overwhelmed and stressed easily doesn't mean you can't work with it. Good coping methods (not drinking/drugs/destructive behaviors) will help you out immensely, and given that you've been struggling so much already, there's a good chance you just don't have them in place. Take this period of quiet to help reset, and figure out how to cope better. Building resilience will help.

Life isn't always going to be easy. You're far better off in the long term learning how to roll with the bumps in life rather than allowing them to beat you up.

As for work - I've got a friend who is a carpenter/plumber/electrician/mechanic/can do just about anything on a house he wants, and he has as much work as he wants from a local property management company. Actually, he has more than he wants, but that's because he sucks at setting and enforcing boundaries. That's on him. He also does side jobs as he chooses. He's taking pity on me and doing my bathroom floor because I can't find anyone to do it.

Hello, thank you for chiming in. I have actually been keeping a habit tracking journal since May, and for well over 90% of the days since then I have done meditation, yoga, pushups/pullups, and taken a cold shower. I dropped down to a 4 day work week and observed a digital sabbath every Friday (turned phone off).  I haven't looked at explicit images online for 14 months. I practice digital minimalism which entails very little screen use throughout the week. I read every night. I often take hot baths and just stare at a flickering candle. I cook pretty much all of my own food, most of it either vegetarian or vegan. I rarely drink or do drugs (other than an LSD microdose on my sabbath, which is wonderful). Finally, I just spent a month Mexico soaking in the sun and doing all these health activities, including some good social experiences, and getting great sleep. I felt great almost the whole time I was in Mexico. And then the moment I got back to Seattle I lost my job and am now a psychological mess. Thinking of starting a business or going back to work (unless it is very light and low stress) makes me sick.

Hopefully that gives you a sense of my high sensitivity as well as my dedication to healthy habits and self care (though if you see issues with my routine, I'm all ears).

[samanil]

https://www.thumbtack.com/instant-results/?zip_code=98101&is_zip_code_changed=true&category_pk=109125193401647362&project_pk=474258317475455000

When you feel up to it, create a profile on Thumbtack $60-$100 / hour seems to be the going rate.

I've actually heard handyman work described as being "on stage" because you're in someone's house doing tricky work that you could mess up on (and if you did that could be a big problem). In fact I created a thumbtack profile once and tried to do all of this, and it was too stressful for me. That's why my plan was to put in another 5 years, to get to a full 10 years of experience, before trying again. But my physical and psychological health makes 5 more years of this sound like scaling El Capitan with no ropes.

[Midwest_Handlebar]

It sounds like you would benefit from professional therapy. All employment has some level of stress/conflict and you need to improve your coping skills. What you're doing isn't working and you need professional help.

Since you just got laid off give it a couple weeks if you want, but if you don't start to feel better go see someone.

[samanil]

I just happened upon a comment on a high sensitivity website that hits the nail on the head (pun intended):

You are so right. My husband and I are both HSPs; he is a self-employed violin maker and artist, and I write. We’re both at home, set our own schedules…and, well, don’t always make much money. But we wouldn’t trade it for a million dollars. You can learn to live cheaply but you can’t force yourself to function happily in a situation for which you are ill-suited.

[samanil]

It sounds like you would benefit from professional therapy. All employment has some level of stress/conflict and you need to improve your coping skills.

Thanks, I agree with you.

[Sibley]

Just because you get overwhelmed and stressed easily doesn't mean you can't work with it. Good coping methods (not drinking/drugs/destructive behaviors) will help you out immensely, and given that you've been struggling so much already, there's a good chance you just don't have them in place. Take this period of quiet to help reset, and figure out how to cope better. Building resilience will help.

Life isn't always going to be easy. You're far better off in the long term learning how to roll with the bumps in life rather than allowing them to beat you up.

As for work - I've got a friend who is a carpenter/plumber/electrician/mechanic/can do just about anything on a house he wants, and he has as much work as he wants from a local property management company. Actually, he has more than he wants, but that's because he sucks at setting and enforcing boundaries. That's on him. He also does side jobs as he chooses. He's taking pity on me and doing my bathroom floor because I can't find anyone to do it.

Hello, thank you for chiming in. I have actually been keeping a habit tracking journal since May, and for well over 90% of the days since then I have done meditation, yoga, pushups/pullups, and taken a cold shower. I dropped down to a 4 day work week and observed a digital sabbath every Friday (turned phone off).  I haven't looked at explicit images online for 14 months. I practice digital minimalism which entails very little screen use throughout the week. I read every night. I often take hot baths and just stare at a flickering candle. I cook pretty much all of my own food, most of it either vegetarian or vegan. I rarely drink or do drugs (other than an LSD microdose on my sabbath, which is wonderful). Finally, I just spent a month Mexico soaking in the sun and doing all these health activities, including some good social experiences, and getting great sleep. I felt great almost the whole time I was in Mexico. And then the moment I got back to Seattle I lost my job and am now a psychological mess. Thinking of starting a business or going back to work (unless it is very light and low stress) makes me sick.

Hopefully that gives you a sense of my high sensitivity as well as my dedication to healthy habits and self care (though if you see issues with my routine, I'm all ears).

If you're doing all this and still struggling, then you need professional assistance. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if you have something underlying that isn't getting handled properly. You can bail the sinking boat all you want, you're not going to get anywhere until you patch the hole.

Losing your job, even if you hated it, is still going to throw you for a loop. This is normal.

[wageslave23]

You can go into a boring office job career.  I went back to school and got my CPA.  The right jobs can be mind numbingly boring.  Might just be the thing you need.

[GilesMM]

If you like carpentry except for the wet PNW weather, why not move south (like many other PNW contractors). California typically has much better weather and pays quite a bit more.  Either work for yourself or find a crew you like.

[FIREin2018]

Hi Mustachians,

I was just laid off from my carpentry job. The silver lining is that I can probably get unemployment for a while, which may be what my body needs most. I burned out last winter after trying to commute in the rain on my bike, and never fully recovered from it. I was implementing mustachianism but WAY over did it, and didn't take into account my own limitations.

I can't help but wonder if I am just too sensitive for this profession, and that I should look for something else. It's very physically and mentally demanding, you're often not treated well or appreciated, and you have to be outside in inclement weather for extended periods of time. I believe I am a highly sensitive person (HSP) and doing carpentry on a jobsite with a bunch of other carpenters is too much for me. It seems like I'm always struggling psychologically with something work related.

That being said, what are my options? I have a degree in psychology, 5 years of experience doing construction, 5 years experience lifeguarding, and some interesting life experience (hiked the PCT in 2016). I'm 34 with a net worth of around 150k.

I'm thinking maybe a job with the city (of Seattle) that isn't particularly demanding but pays decently with decent benefits? My goal is simply something that will allow me to save a little (maybe max out an IRA), allow me to have mostly positive social experiences, and is low stress. I am more Coast FIRE oriented than regular FIRE, as I think I need some work to give me routine and opportunities to socialize. I'll most likely not have kids.

Do you think a temp agency may be a helpful resource? Any other resources that may be of help?

Thanks a lot for any advice.

years ago, I quit my 6figure job because burnout and worked at Starbucks at near Federal minimum wage because it seemed fun to work there when i ordered my coffee.
and it was!

eventually, i had to find a real job because my cash savings was getting too low because i couldnt survive on minimum wage.

Nowadays, Seattle min wage is like double minimum wage?
If you can survive off that, try Starbucks. And they have great benefits for full time workers! and 20hrs/week still gets some benefits.

[samanil]

Good point. That's definitely an option that's on my radar. I always think San Diego unless you have a different idea

If you like carpentry except for the wet PNW weather, why not move south (like many other PNW contractors). California typically has much better weather and pays quite a bit more.  Either work for yourself or find a crew you like.

[samanil]

You can go into a boring office job career.  I went back to school and got my CPA.  The right jobs can be mind numbingly boring.  Might just be the thing you need.

Interesting, how long did that take and what was the cost? I do fear that mind numbing boredom is a slippery slope that can lead to depression.

[samanil]

years ago, I quit my 6figure job because burnout and worked at Starbucks at near Federal minimum wage because it seemed fun to work there when i ordered my coffee.
and it was!

eventually, i had to find a real job because my cash savings was getting too low because i couldnt survive on minimum wage.

Nowadays, Seattle min wage is like double minimum wage?
If you can survive off that, try Starbucks. And they have great benefits for full time workers! and 20hrs/week still gets some benefits.

Funny enough, I was just looking into working at Starbucks. I found some comments that it is actually fairly difficult to get a job there. Was that your experience? I don't have any experience with being a barista, and very little in the food/bev industry generally. However that might be just what I need--you're moving around making things, lightly socializing all day, getting a lot of "little wins".

Edit: I also thought of working at Trader Joe's.

[sonofsven]

I think your instinct to look for a "city job" is right on. I've been working in construction since I was 14 (55 now); it's not for everyone and there's absolutely no shame in that.
I've known numerous folks who moved on from construction and are better off for it. If I had any sense I would have moved on too but I love it too much; I'm a lifer, got hooked early.
I've also been self employed for nearly 30 years and it can be very stressful dealing with clients, bidding, billing, scheduling, and saying "no", especially when you're just starting out.
Your health care plan-up to you.
Retirement plan -up to you.
Job-up to you.
Hours-up to you.
Maybe you could go to "the dark side" and be a building inspector?
I also consider myself a HSP so I know what you mean. Construction world can be dark, but it all depends on who you're working with.
I've worked the last fifteen years with a great partner, but he's retiring so I'm transitioning as well.

[samanil]

I think your instinct to look for a "city job" is right on. I've been working in construction since I was 14 (55 now); it's not for everyone and there's absolutely no shame in that.
I've known numerous folks who moved on from construction and are better off for it. If I had any sense I would have moved on too but I love it too much; I'm a lifer, got hooked early.
I've also been self employed for nearly 30 years and it can be very stressful dealing with clients, bidding, billing, scheduling, and saying "no", especially when you're just starting out.
Your health care plan-up to you.
Retirement plan -up to you.
Job-up to you.
Hours-up to you.
Maybe you could go to "the dark side" and be a building inspector?
I also consider myself a HSP so I know what you mean. Construction world can be dark, but it all depends on who you're working with.
I've worked the last fifteen years with a great partner, but he's retiring so I'm transitioning as well.

Thank you, your overview of the stresses of self employment perfectly articulates my hesitancy to try it out.

Also, I think you're spot on that it all depends on who you're working with. At my last job I was stuck on a job site with a guy who was in a foul mood all the time and used a nasty tone with me often. I tried to stand up for myself but it's very hard when the person is above you in the hierarchy. After waking up in the middle of the night with pain in my chest, I threatened to quit on him, and he backed off. But not long thereafter he started being nasty again. I think that drama is part of why I was laid off.

Congrats on your long tenure in construction, what are you transitioning to?

[sonofsven]

I think your instinct to look for a "city job" is right on. I've been working in construction since I was 14 (55 now); it's not for everyone and there's absolutely no shame in that.
I've known numerous folks who moved on from construction and are better off for it. If I had any sense I would have moved on too but I love it too much; I'm a lifer, got hooked early.
I've also been self employed for nearly 30 years and it can be very stressful dealing with clients, bidding, billing, scheduling, and saying "no", especially when you're just starting out.
Your health care plan-up to you.
Retirement plan -up to you.
Job-up to you.
Hours-up to you.
Maybe you could go to "the dark side" and be a building inspector?
I also consider myself a HSP so I know what you mean. Construction world can be dark, but it all depends on who you're working with.
I've worked the last fifteen years with a great partner, but he's retiring so I'm transitioning as well.

Thank you, your overview of the stresses of self employment perfectly articulates my hesitancy to try it out.

Also, I think you're spot on that it all depends on who you're working with. At my last job I was stuck on a job site with a guy who was in a foul mood all the time and used a nasty tone with me often. I tried to stand up for myself but it's very hard when the person is above you in the hierarchy. After waking up in the middle of the night with pain in my chest, I threatened to quit on him, and he backed off. But not long thereafter he started being nasty again. I think that drama is part of why I was laid off.

Congrats on your long tenure in construction, what are you transitioning to?

More (actually less) carpentering. Just not with my old partner. Charging more, working less ;-)
We've been building a house per year, so I'll probably keep doing that, with small jobs in between.
I'm not really sure, but I've developed a laissez-faire attitude over the years towards work. It always finds me, even if I don't want it to.

[JupiterGreen]

Just because you get overwhelmed and stressed easily doesn't mean you can't work with it. Good coping methods (not drinking/drugs/destructive behaviors) will help you out immensely, and given that you've been struggling so much already, there's a good chance you just don't have them in place. Take this period of quiet to help reset, and figure out how to cope better. Building resilience will help.

Life isn't always going to be easy. You're far better off in the long term learning how to roll with the bumps in life rather than allowing them to beat you up.

As for work - I've got a friend who is a carpenter/plumber/electrician/mechanic/can do just about anything on a house he wants, and he has as much work as he wants from a local property management company. Actually, he has more than he wants, but that's because he sucks at setting and enforcing boundaries. That's on him. He also does side jobs as he chooses. He's taking pity on me and doing my bathroom floor because I can't find anyone to do it.

Hello, thank you for chiming in. I have actually been keeping a habit tracking journal since May, and for well over 90% of the days since then I have done meditation, yoga, pushups/pullups, and taken a cold shower. I dropped down to a 4 day work week and observed a digital sabbath every Friday (turned phone off).  I haven't looked at explicit images online for 14 months. I practice digital minimalism which entails very little screen use throughout the week. I read every night. I often take hot baths and just stare at a flickering candle. I cook pretty much all of my own food, most of it either vegetarian or vegan. I rarely drink or do drugs (other than an LSD microdose on my sabbath, which is wonderful). Finally, I just spent a month Mexico soaking in the sun and doing all these health activities, including some good social experiences, and getting great sleep. I felt great almost the whole time I was in Mexico. And then the moment I got back to Seattle I lost my job and am now a psychological mess. Thinking of starting a business or going back to work (unless it is very light and low stress) makes me sick.

Hopefully that gives you a sense of my high sensitivity as well as my dedication to healthy habits and self care (though if you see issues with my routine, I'm all ears).

It sounds like you are having trouble with Seattle and need more light, maybe you should move south? Another avenue to look into is high school counseling.  Since your undergraduate degree is in psychology you may be able to land a job if you were enrolled in a graduate program part-time just to see if you like it. There is also a lot of need for therapists, so maybe private practice. Look for a niche like psychedelics and counseling, there is a lot of promising research on this topic and you are already familiar with micro-dosing. I don't have personal experience, but I have a friend who is a therapist and they counsels people through these experiences.

[samanil]

It sounds like you are having trouble with Seattle and need more light, maybe you should move south? Another avenue to look into is high school counseling.  Since your undergraduate degree is in psychology you may be able to land a job if you were enrolled in a graduate program part-time just to see if you like it. There is also a lot of need for therapists, so maybe private practice. Look for a niche like psychedelics and counseling, there is a lot of promising research on this topic and you are already familiar with micro-dosing. I don't have personal experience, but I have a friend who is a therapist and they counsels people through these experiences.

Thank you for your suggestions.

[Sibley]

You can go into a boring office job career.  I went back to school and got my CPA.  The right jobs can be mind numbingly boring.  Might just be the thing you need.

Hey! I happen to like my job and don't find it boring. Just because you picked badly doesn't mean you can diss my job.

[moneytaichi]

Many good suggestions. I am also a HSP/Empath, which means I need to manage my energy carefully so I don't get overwhelmed. I work at tech sector. My HSP/empath traits actually have helped me succeed because I can easily connect with people, especially with customers. My deep thinking also helped me think outside of boxes. Challenges are always with difficult bosses and colleagues, but you have options to find other jobs relative easily. You can choose organizations with lower stress and pace. See my recent work drama:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-to-tell-your-boss-that-you-want-to-step-back/

Your psychology background would be a great asset if you want to transition to product managers, project managers, governance manager, data scientists, etc. Other tech MMM can chime on possible jobs. You'd get tons of pays and have lots of options.

In the meantime, do find a good therapist who understands HSP and can help you set proper boundary. I never graduate from therapy because I can talk through my issues and even vend with my therapists. So valuable for HSPs. I also read and listen a lot about HSPs so I can grow and thrive as a HSP person. It makes huge difference for my energy and well-being. Below are a couple of resources that you may already know:
https://www.juliebjelland.com/podcast
https://drjudithorloff.com/

It's fun and exciting to be a HSP! Thanks for letting us know your tendency since 1 out 5 people has this tendency, but the society has little knowledge about it. Good luck and keep us posted!

[thesis]

I'm biased toward technology, but in the interest of generating thought, the spatial reasoning skills that make you a good carpenter could also be used for technical drafting and/or geographic information systems. It might require some extra schooling, but both subjects are usually taught at community colleges and can often be done in 1-year certificates. I've heard that GIS can sometimes be saturated, and engineers often do their own drafting, but the jobs still exist and those spatial reasoning skills are critical, so it's something you could do a little research on if you were interested. I'm not sure what the job conditions are like, but if most of your day is spent in front of a computer, that might help with the interpersonal anxiety (although as others said, there are other ways to deal with that, too)

[samanil]

Many good suggestions. I am also a HSP/Empath, which means I need to manage my energy carefully so I don't get overwhelmed. I work at tech sector. My HSP/empath traits actually have helped me succeed because I can easily connect with people, especially with customers. My deep thinking also helped me think outside of boxes. Challenges are always with difficult bosses and colleagues, but you have options to find other jobs relative easily. You can choose organizations with lower stress and pace. See my recent work drama:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-to-tell-your-boss-that-you-want-to-step-back/

Your psychology background would be a great asset if you want to transition to product managers, project managers, governance manager, data scientists, etc. Other tech MMM can chime on possible jobs. You'd get tons of pays and have lots of options.

In the meantime, do find a good therapist who understands HSP and can help you set proper boundary. I never graduate from therapy because I can talk through my issues and even vend with my therapists. So valuable for HSPs. I also read and listen a lot about HSPs so I can grow and thrive as a HSP person. It makes huge difference for my energy and well-being. Below are a couple of resources that you may already know:
https://www.juliebjelland.com/podcast
https://drjudithorloff.com/

It's fun and exciting to be a HSP! Thanks for letting us know your tendency since 1 out 5 people has this tendency, but the society has little knowledge about it. Good luck and keep us posted!

How the heck could I get one of those fancy job titles? Without investing a lot of time and money, that is. If I could get a high paying job that didn't harm me psychologically, my life would be deeply transformed permanently in like 2 years (since I'm coast FIRE oriented).

I read your work drama thread and it was very interesting! I'm glad you were able to leverage FU money and threaten to quit, and that your boss backpedaled. That's wonderful. I actually did the same last summer but only after I was on the verge of having a mental breakdown (pain in chest in the middle of the night). Also amazing how your colleague got through to your boss and your boss actually was able to take it in. I haven't seen that yet. And the way your boss was initially cool, but then changed for the worse--I have definitely experienced that. Really throws one for a loop. A lot of the things you said about previously walking on egg shells around bosses, holding in your anger etc. I strongly identify with. What got me most interested in FIRE was when I observed how weak I was when other people were nasty to me at work. I want nothing more than to smile and casually say, "Yeah...don't talk to me like that." Maybe a naïve vision, but I can dream.

I am going to start looking for a therapist tomorrow, specifically one who understands HSPs. And thank you for those resources, I did not know about them. I think I will also start consistently reading about the topic--seems like a very good practice for an HSP. Cheers.

[use2betrix]

Agree on the handyman business if you want to stay in construction. I like this guy on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheHandymanBusiness. Apply for unemployment ASAP and start taking on side projects until you get your feet under you. You can make good money just by doing decks/fences and handyman work for property management companies.

If you don't want to stay in construction, you need to narrow down your job search a little more. I've heard being a phlebotomist is a good ROI?

Working for someone else has always been more tolerable when I was working on the side knowing I could bail if I needed to. Good luck and don't over think it, some people are just jerks to work for/with.

I like the guy you linked to, I have actually watched a lot of his videos. I have thought about going out on my own, but I don't think the stress of self employment is for me. I want to be able to clock in and clock out, without a lot of stress, and have the energy and peace of mind to do things like meditation and yoga when I'm not at work. My friend works for the city doing a pretty easy job and makes almost $30 an hour with good benefits. That would be enough for me to save a substantial amount without burning myself out.

Edit: I want to take my high sensitivity into account when planning my next move.

I think you’re looking through the wrong lens. Part of the reason to do meditation, exercise, and yoga is to better manage what you are experiencing as workplace stresses.

In 2022 I worked over 850 hours of overtime. I also helped my wife raise our 1 year old and tried to be a present husband/father the best I could. My job largely crushed me. I was a high level manager on a multi billion dollar project that was over budget and behind schedule. Workplace tensions were as high as can be, and I would consider my self relatively sensitive to conflict, like yourself. In contrast, I’m not an agreeable person which only adds fuel to the fire.

With that in mind, I did around 115, 10 minute meditations, lifted weights around 170 times for 45 minutes a piece, and ran around 125x, usually around 4ish miles per run. 

I could not have made it through the year, or my job, without the meditation and exercise. I have since switched positions within the company. In my opinion, meditation and exercise is the first thing any stressed or struggling person should look at, in addition to their diet.

[Brystheguy]

What about finish carpentry? You'd be more likely to work by yourself and not as part of a crew that annoys you.

[moneytaichi]

Many good suggestions. I am also a HSP/Empath, which means I need to manage my energy carefully so I don't get overwhelmed. I work at tech sector. My HSP/empath traits actually have helped me succeed because I can easily connect with people, especially with customers. My deep thinking also helped me think outside of boxes. Challenges are always with difficult bosses and colleagues, but you have options to find other jobs relative easily. You can choose organizations with lower stress and pace. See my recent work drama:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-to-tell-your-boss-that-you-want-to-step-back/

Your psychology background would be a great asset if you want to transition to product managers, project managers, governance manager, data scientists, etc. Other tech MMM can chime on possible jobs. You'd get tons of pays and have lots of options.

In the meantime, do find a good therapist who understands HSP and can help you set proper boundary. I never graduate from therapy because I can talk through my issues and even vend with my therapists. So valuable for HSPs. I also read and listen a lot about HSPs so I can grow and thrive as a HSP person. It makes huge difference for my energy and well-being. Below are a couple of resources that you may already know:
https://www.juliebjelland.com/podcast
https://drjudithorloff.com/

It's fun and exciting to be a HSP! Thanks for letting us know your tendency since 1 out 5 people has this tendency, but the society has little knowledge about it. Good luck and keep us posted!

How the heck could I get one of those fancy job titles? Without investing a lot of time and money, that is. If I could get a high paying job that didn't harm me psychologically, my life would be deeply transformed permanently in like 2 years (since I'm coast FIRE oriented).

Here is a good FIRE blog about how to break into tech sector without coding or industry experience:
https://wanderonwards.co/pivot-into-tech/

One of the best thing to understand what's behind these "fancy" job titles is to talk to people working in tech industry. Do you have friends, or friends of friends etc who you can talk to? You can also send messages on LinkedIn communities and ask strangers help you understand how to break into tech sectors.

You can also volunteer at local non-profit organizations to gain a little more computer experience and test how much you like to sit in front of computer. If you can find non-profits that teach IT, that'll be great because it allows you become one of tech insighters. When I was at the college, I worked at Helpdesk, which was the key for me land my first IT job. A friend of mine became a content marketing manager as a writer. A colleague of mine used to be an acupuncturist. It can be done without expensive degrees and length reschooling. 

Finally, maybe you can create a new thread in MMM forum and get other techies' input. It's free, and you'd get lots of feedback from people who work in the industry :)

[Jon Bon]

What kind of work were you doing? Framing houses? base and case? Cabinets etc? While I agree that a construction crew can have a few rough personalilites, I would assume these high paying tech jobs are going to come with much higher levels of stress.

Furthermore, there is no MMM rule that you have to ride your bike in freezing temperatures man! The rule is don't drive a 75k suv across 60 miles of high traffic roads every day. There is a balance here.

Handyman work can be really hard, finding, managing, billing and collecting from clients can be a HUGE pita. I would hang your own shingle as a specialist in whatever skill you have. There are TONS of guys who are a 1 man band in the trades and make great coin. Getting subbed out to and managed by a GC is is a hell of a lot easier than being micromanaged by some asshole homeowner that thinks they own you.

[iris lily]

DH had his own handyman/light construction business for a dozen years or more. He is self-taught. He has an advanced degree in another field, but we lived in a neighborhood of Victorian houses and all of our friends in the neighborhood begged him to go into business for himself and they would hire him. So he did, and they did. He never made a ton of money but he liked the work

It is impossible to find workmen who do a decent job. OP, if you’re interested in working for yourself, you probably could make a go of it. I don’t know how much finish carpentry you know however. DH is right this very moment installing crown molding in our renovated kitchen, He can do anything.

I am old and would prefer to write a check to get it all done but you can’t hire anyone to do this work these days

[Jon Bon]

DH had his own handyman/like construction business for a dozen years or more. He is self-taught. He has an advanced degree in another field, but we lived in a neighborhood of Victorian houses and all of our friends in the neighborhood begged him to go into business for himself and they would hire him. So he did, and they did. He never made a ton of money but he liked the work

It is impossible to find workmen who do a decent job. OP, if you’re interested in working for yourself, you probably could make a go of it. I don’t know how much finish carpentry you know however. DH is right this very moment installing crown molding in our renovated kitchen, He can do anything.

I am old and would prefer to write a check to get it all done but you can’t hire anyone to do this work these days

Yes the sweet spot is rich doctors/lawyers living in old ass houses. They don't know how to change a lightbulb in a house that is constantly breaking.

[samanil]

What kind of work were you doing? Framing houses? base and case? Cabinets etc? While I agree that a construction crew can have a few rough personalilites, I would assume these high paying tech jobs are going to come with much higher levels of stress.

Furthermore, there is no MMM rule that you have to ride your bike in freezing temperatures man! The rule is don't drive a 75k suv across 60 miles of high traffic roads every day. There is a balance here.

Handyman work can be really hard, finding, managing, billing and collecting from clients can be a HUGE pita. I would hang your own shingle as a specialist in whatever skill you have. There are TONS of guys who are a 1 man band in the trades and make great coin. Getting subbed out to and managed by a GC is is a hell of a lot easier than being micromanaged by some asshole homeowner that thinks they own you.

I was doing residential remodel, so a bit of everything. Framing, finish, siding, windows, doors, insulation, drywall, light roofing, flooring occasionally, cabinets occasionally--and probably more that I'm forgetting. I think you're right that high paying tech jobs would probably be more stressful.

You are totally right about the balance. I have a tendency to overdo things in pursuit of some ideal, while totally neglecting my own sensitivity. I recently bought a Kia Soul for 6k and suddenly I look back at my idealistic decision to pull all my tools with a bike trailer as being somewhat ridiculous and limiting, and adding unnecessarily to my stress. If I was working for a contractor in San Diego that only took jobs in a few neighborhoods, that'd be one thing. But I was pulling my tools all over Seattle, sometimes in shit weather.

I do wonder if I should just get another carpentry job, but be selective about it--ask for a 4 day work week right out of the gate, ensure that there are protocols for nipping interpersonal issue in the bud (unlike last time where I waited until I was on the verge of a mental breakdown), make sure there isn't a culture of "we don't take breaks, only lunch" (I will say I need my 2 x 10 minute breaks every day, unless there's a unique circumstance like a concrete pour), etc. Like, literally have a list of questions and stipulations to go over in the job interview.

Yeah I thought maybe I could focus on bathrooms and "hang my shingle" doing that. I keep going back to the idea of working 5 more years, really focus on skill acquisition and net worth while taking self care very seriously, and then when my net worth is between 250k and 500k and I have a decade of experience, either go out on my own, or be a sub for a GC, or something like that.

[samanil]

Here is a good FIRE blog about how to break into tech sector without coding or industry experience:
https://wanderonwards.co/pivot-into-tech/

One of the best thing to understand what's behind these "fancy" job titles is to talk to people working in tech industry. Do you have friends, or friends of friends etc who you can talk to? You can also send messages on LinkedIn communities and ask strangers help you understand how to break into tech sectors.

I have actually tried to get into tech. I did graphic design for a while but...burned out! Lol. I then went and hiked the PCT and after that there was NO CHANCE of sitting in front of a computer for any extended period of time. So I went into carpentry. But that was 7 years ago...

Man, that girl is driven! That's a great resource, thanks. I do have friends in tech making big money, and I'm sure they could help me. The question is, would that be a good environment for me? After reading the thread about your work drama, I'm not so sure.

I really think carpentry is my jam--it's creative, it's physical, it's mental, there's satisfaction after a hard days work. If I could just focus and get into a nice quiet zone (like MMM) and not have to deal with controlling hotheads, things would be good. And be able to take longer breaks as needed (I recently realized the standard 5 day work week is too much for me so luckily was able to drop down to 4 day week, which was crucial). Thus, the question is how to honor my high sensitivity while doing it. Is that idealistic? I have a tendency to be blinded by idealism, so I won't pretend I have an answer to that question.

[lhamo]

Do you like trees?

Cityfruit is looking for an Americorps position -- the stipend is minimal, though. 

https://www.cityfruit.org/employmentcareer/

[Dancin'Dog]

I think specializing in something like tile setting or hanging wallpaper would be something that you could do on your own.  You could be a sub working with GCs and/or work directly for home owners.  Tools would be pretty minimal.  Each job would be relatively short term, so if it happens to get a bit stressful it won't last forever. 

[Jon Bon]

I do wonder if I should just get another carpentry job, but be selective about it--ask for a 4 day work week right out of the gate, ensure that there are protocols for nipping interpersonal issue in the bud (unlike last time where I waited until I was on the verge of a mental breakdown), make sure there isn't a culture of "we don't take breaks, only lunch" (I will say I need my 2 x 10 minute breaks every day, unless there's a unique circumstance like a concrete pour), etc. Like, literally have a list of questions and stipulations to go over in the job interview.

While I think this is a good idea for managing your health, do you think a company would want to hire you with those preconditions for employment?

As you know construction can be a rough business. Asking a potential employer for special accommodations right off the bat might be an issue. I think you would have to work under normal conditions, show your value, and then ask for 4 days a week etc.

I believe breaks are an OSHA thing I could be wrong but forever ago when I did construction we were required two 15 min paid breaks a day. Generally we took them at lunch so we could have a paid lunch and go home 30 mins earlier.

Kind of why I recommended being your own sub-contractor because then you get to decide how often you work, how often you take breaks, how the work is done etc etc. You do the job, the how is completely up to you. I think working on a crew will have the same issues your struggling with now.

Good luck out there.

[Dancin'Dog]

I think specializing in something like tile setting or hanging wallpaper would be something that you could do on your own.  You could be a sub working with GCs and/or work directly for homeowners.  Tools would be pretty minimal.  Each job would be relatively short-term, so if it happens to get a bit stressful it won't last forever.

Edit: It's also important to find something that doesn't depend on the weather.  A weather dependant job sucks for a variety of reasons.  Most employees would prefer to take nice days off, not the opposite. 

[wageslave23]

You can go into a boring office job career.  I went back to school and got my CPA.  The right jobs can be mind numbingly boring.  Might just be the thing you need.

Interesting, how long did that take and what was the cost? I do fear that mind numbing boredom is a slippery slope that can lead to depression.

Depression really is a concern with boring office jobs like accounting.  I'd advise against it if you think you might be prone to depression.

[samanil]

While I think this is a good idea for managing your health, do you think a company would want to hire you with those preconditions for employment?

As you know construction can be a rough business. Asking a potential employer for special accommodations right off the bat might be an issue. I think you would have to work under normal conditions, show your value, and then ask for 4 days a week etc.

I believe breaks are an OSHA thing I could be wrong but forever ago when I did construction we were required two 15 min paid breaks a day. Generally we took them at lunch so we could have a paid lunch and go home 30 mins earlier.

Kind of why I recommended being your own sub-contractor because then you get to decide how often you work, how often you take breaks, how the work is done etc etc. You do the job, the how is completely up to you. I think working on a crew will have the same issues your struggling with now.

Good luck out there.

Good points. In my state the law is that employees get a 10 minute break every 4 hours worked. I think if a company isn't 100% open to honoring basic labor laws, that's a red flag.

Regarding asking for special accommodations right out of the gate, you might be right. At my last company, I worked full time for a while and then dropped down. Maybe ask after a year...

Here's the thing though--I would make it clear that the reason I am asking for special accommodations is so that I can be a good LONG TERM employee. Like, 5 years + (which is my actual goal as stated above). Given the amount of turnover in the industry, I'd hope there would be a company or 2 who would see the long term value in that. Naïve of me to think that?

Edit: I would also say that, in exchange for being given a modified schedule, I would also be willing to take time off as needed in the event of a slow down. Thus, they would have less stress associated with keeping me busy all the time.

[former player]

I do wonder if I should just get another carpentry job, but be selective about it--ask for a 4 day work week right out of the gate, ensure that there are protocols for nipping interpersonal issue in the bud (unlike last time where I waited until I was on the verge of a mental breakdown), make sure there isn't a culture of "we don't take breaks, only lunch" (I will say I need my 2 x 10 minute breaks every day, unless there's a unique circumstance like a concrete pour), etc. Like, literally have a list of questions and stipulations to go over in the job interview.

While I think this is a good idea for managing your health, do you think a company would want to hire you with those preconditions for employment?

As you know construction can be a rough business. Asking a potential employer for special accommodations right off the bat might be an issue. I think you would have to work under normal conditions, show your value, and then ask for 4 days a week etc.

I believe breaks are an OSHA thing I could be wrong but forever ago when I did construction we were required two 15 min paid breaks a day. Generally we took them at lunch so we could have a paid lunch and go home 30 mins earlier.

Kind of why I recommended being your own sub-contractor because then you get to decide how often you work, how often you take breaks, how the work is done etc etc. You do the job, the how is completely up to you. I think working on a crew will have the same issues your struggling with now.

Good luck out there.

I think it's worth a try to find a job that's 4 days a week, breaks and a decent work environment, at least at first.  In return for those accommodations OP is offering experienced permanent labour, that's not to be sniffed at if there's a skills shortage.  It will be clear pretty quickly whether it's going to be a problem for potential employers - OP replies to a job advert with "I'm a good fit for this job but would only do four days a week: are you interested?"  No need for OP to explain anything beyond "personal commitments" preventing a five day week.

[lhamo]

Here's another thought about how to maybe break into/try out going solo as a handyperson to see if you can find a model that works for you -- do a little networking to find a few guys who have more work than they can handle, and who don't like to do jobs that you like.  Then work with or for them on a few jobs.  I bet there are more than a few guys who have to turn down work because they simply don't have the time who would be happy to have a competent sidekick to throw things to.