Author Topic: Career Advice - Late 20s CPA (Update 6.3.2020)  (Read 2383 times)

Accrual

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Career Advice - Late 20s CPA (Update 6.3.2020)
« on: May 03, 2020, 08:24:38 AM »
Hi All,

Looking for perspective from you smart folks -

Late 20s CPA working in Finance at a <$10B (market cap) manufacturing firm. Last year's gross income was ~$130k and I expect it to grow this year. I have worked at this company for the entirety of my career. My salary when I first started was ~$45k. My career has been made by having the willingness to work long hours and create new, scalable processes where needed.

As of today, simply put, I feel like I am burning out. My work ethic has not diminished, but my apathy for what I do and the value I provide has increased significantly in the past 6 months. My current position allows me to see systemic issues within our company - operational and financial. We are trying to scale with poor systems and poor operational discipline. I have been forced to 'make up' budget numbers to fit the narrative that everything is ok, when it is not. Unless there is a radical shift in mindset at the executive / VP level, I cannot imagine how this ends well. Eventually the shoe must drop when our financials are actualized.

Here is my conundrum - I stay at the company and continue to grind it out, incrementally fixing our systems / issues, never knowing or learning 'best in class' processes. Or, do I leave for a larger, more established company that would pay less, but I would be able to increase my knowledge base, which I could leverage to a greater effect later in my career.

I feel trapped. Stressed. And overall, my physical & mental health is not where I want it to be. But, I am making good money for my age and everyone I talk to (family / friends) give a rubber stamp answer of "this too shall pass" & "be grateful for your income".

Any guidance would be much appreciated, guys.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 07:41:48 AM by Accrual »

LWYRUP

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Re: Career Advice - Late 20s CPA
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2020, 08:30:26 AM »

How long have you worked at this company?

How many hours are long hours (average weekly and then bad weeks)?

How long have you felt like this?

Are the problems you are describing issues with ethics / fraud or just garden variety incompetence?

Would changing jobs require moving or massively increasing your commute or could you change without disrupting your lifestyle?

Accrual

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Re: Career Advice - Late 20s CPA
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2020, 08:39:22 AM »

How long have you worked at this company? 6 years

How many hours are long hours (average weekly and then bad weeks)? Average week: 50 hours. Bad week: 70+ hours (past few months)

How long have you felt like this? 4+ months

Are the problems you are describing issues with ethics / fraud or just garden variety incompetence? I can confirm incompetence. I suspect ethical issues, but not blatant fraud (that I could substantiate)

Would changing jobs require moving or massively increasing your commute or could you change without disrupting your lifestyle? I do not know. Unsure of job prospects as I have only ever worked at this company.

Thanks for the quick reply. See my responses in red above.

For context - I am single. No debt.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2020, 08:43:44 AM by Accrual »

Joel

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Re: Career Advice - Late 20s CPA
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2020, 08:57:36 AM »
In my experience, the larger companies aren’t necessarily any more likely to have their act together. Although, I’ve only ever worked for private companies. What I would suggest is to change companies and find a new challenge that will keep you interested for a few years. Rinse and repeat if necessary. Sincerely, early 30s CPA doing the same thing.

dresden

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Re: Career Advice - Late 20s CPA
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2020, 09:23:39 AM »
I am also a CPA - started out with an accounting firm, moved to a position at a client for 17 years and then ended up back in public accounting for a few years prior to retiring through a transaction between my old company and the accounting firm.

In terms of money I think you are tracking with a big CPA firm fairly well - it's about where you would be as a new manager at a large CPA firm which takes maybe 5-6 years now.   I wouldn't assume you can't match or even increase your salary.  If a CPA firm can get away with classifying you as a senior and paying you less they will do it - that's just how they operate they will pay you as little as possible.

At a CPA firm you won't reduce your hours.  We had a 30% minimum overtime expectation - minimum.  So anything less than averaging 52 hours (including weeks on vacation) is going to hurt your raises and bonuses.    They threw more and more work at me the entire time I was there and most of the extra work I did was to make up for bad leadership such as lying to clients and forcing employees to cover the lie by excessive work.   For example they told clients we had software that did "X" and we didn't.  So we had to develop that software to cover the lie while simultaneously getting the work done with software that didn't do what was promised.  They told clients we were more efficient due to better software (while not investing in it so it would do what was promised) and covered it by throwing a bunch of work to India at lower rates.  They sold clients outsourcing agreements so they would have a "fixed price" while the full time knowing they couldn't make profit without significant add-on work beyond the base contract.  So the expectation was to steadily increase work while telling clients it was a "fixed price" to manage their costs.

The one thing I will tell you is never sign your name to something you aren't comfortable with.  In other words if they are pushing you to make up numbers as you say - don't sign your name to it and make their lie your lie.  You will get thrown under the bus - simply tell them you aren't comfortable with the numbers they are requiring you to use if they push the issue - just insist it should have their name since it's their #s.  Make sure they are on the hotseat for their decision and not you.  Never fear losing your job over doing the right thing- it's unlikely and if it happens the company is probably in trouble anyhow.

Your income is good for your age - so live on less then you won't have to worry about a paycut.  But I suspect you can match or even beat your salary as your salary tracks with the top 25% or so of CPAs out of school, although not sure about the covid impact.

LWYRUP

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Re: Career Advice - Late 20s CPA
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2020, 10:04:06 AM »

On hours, I think 50 hours a week are unfortunately pretty much standard professional hours and so while I'd like to tell you there are ways to lower that, it may be difficult.  OTOH, I personally think 70 hours per week is just flatly unsustainable and will damage health and relationships in the long run so I would only do it for a short period of time (like a big push to get a bonus or promotion) but not long term.  So I would work on getting your hours back to your normal pace.

On quality of experience, I would not assume a larger place has its act together more or you will learn more.  There is a lot you can learn by helping some place with operational challenges grow and thrive and fix those challenges.  At larger employers I always have this sort of "cog in the machine" feeling, where I feel what they really want is like 99% of people to just monotonously execute and only give a shit about what maybe 1% of people (at best) think about anything.  I really hate that feeling, and am willing to put up with a lot of ridiculousness to avoid it.  Smaller employers are more likely to actually give a shit what you think about things, which can be gratifying. 

On the ethics stuff, I would distinguish between garden variety incompetence (part of the fabric of the universe & structure of reality so just get used to it) and dishonesty / fraud.  I agree with @dresden that the person who makes the decision is the one to sign the papers is the right way.  I am fine to provide legal advice and have people ignore it.  If I'm signing my name to it, it's being done correctly.  So you choose, but don't tell me to do something incorrectly and then sign my name to it.  One of the few times that it's worth it to just openly challenge your superior (diplomatically).

Don't say "this is totally unethical and you are terrible."  Just say, "if I am going to be signing off on this and sending this out, I am not comfortable doing it this way and would need to do that way.  If you want me to send the current draft of the spreadsheet so you can review and revise as you see fit and then sign and send it out, I am happy to send it along and turn to Project X."  If it was totally unethical, then I might resign but even then I probably wouldn't whisteblow.  Not really worth it unless it's like crazy embezzlement or you are an executive or something.  But I've never had to deal with anything like that and hopefully never will.   

Based on what you described, I'd probably stick it out another six months and see if things get better or whether it stays the same.  If you still have that feeling after a year and are still working those hours, at that point I'd jump ship.  Nothing wrong btw with testing the waters and seeing what you can get in the market, no need to jump if it's not what you want.  Maybe you can put out feelers or apply to stretch job and see what happens while still planning to stick it out where you are for the time being. 

Proud Foot

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Re: Career Advice - Late 20s CPA
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2020, 03:23:48 PM »
Here is my conundrum - I stay at the company and continue to grind it out, incrementally fixing our systems / issues, never knowing or learning 'best in class' processes. Or, do I leave for a larger, more established company that would pay less, but I would be able to increase my knowledge base, which I could leverage to a greater effect later in my career.

Also a CPA working in industry. I would challenge your assumption that a larger, more established company would 1) pay less, and 2) have better processes.

What is your title? If it is senior accountant or accounting manager you may look to try to move to a controller role at a similar sized or slightly smaller organization. The step up in title should lead to a higher salary and the controller role will give you more exposure to the upper level decision making.

Even if you are not explicitly looking to change companies you need to monitor job opportunities in your area and develop relationships with recruiters just to gauge what whether you are getting paid market value. The recruiter part is big to develop relationships now that will be very beneficial down the road when you are looking to make a move or need a job. Also they may reach out to you on an opening that may be a really good fit. I have had this happen to me several times, none of the opportunities worked by either my decision or the hiring company's decision, but that relationship allowed me to get my foot in the door when otherwise I would not have. I don't know where you live but Parker Lynch, Addison Group, and Robert Half are recruiting companies I have connections at. If you are on LinkedIn you can also search for "recruiter + your city" to find recruiters to reach out to.

Accrual

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Re: Career Advice - Late 20s CPA
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2020, 05:40:17 AM »
Here is my conundrum - I stay at the company and continue to grind it out, incrementally fixing our systems / issues, never knowing or learning 'best in class' processes. Or, do I leave for a larger, more established company that would pay less, but I would be able to increase my knowledge base, which I could leverage to a greater effect later in my career.

Also a CPA working in industry. I would challenge your assumption that a larger, more established company would 1) pay less, and 2) have better processes.

What is your title? If it is senior accountant or accounting manager you may look to try to move to a controller role at a similar sized or slightly smaller organization. The step up in title should lead to a higher salary and the controller role will give you more exposure to the upper level decision making.

Even if you are not explicitly looking to change companies you need to monitor job opportunities in your area and develop relationships with recruiters just to gauge what whether you are getting paid market value. The recruiter part is big to develop relationships now that will be very beneficial down the road when you are looking to make a move or need a job. Also they may reach out to you on an opening that may be a really good fit. I have had this happen to me several times, none of the opportunities worked by either my decision or the hiring company's decision, but that relationship allowed me to get my foot in the door when otherwise I would not have. I don't know where you live but Parker Lynch, Addison Group, and Robert Half are recruiting companies I have connections at. If you are on LinkedIn you can also search for "recruiter + your city" to find recruiters to reach out to.

@Proud Foot - my title is 'Finance Manager'. I am starting to come around to 'larger company != better processes'. This assumption was merely a result of only having worked at a single company. I am almost certain I could succeed as a Controller at another organization as my experience is almost entirely operations-related.

@LWYRUP - unfortunately, the dishonesty is budget-based. I am changing assumptions to push funds from one part of the business to another (Squeezing the balloon), without having the appropriate back-up data. My boss directs the flow of funds, but wants to be ignorant to how the sausage is made. I assume this is to allow future deniability. I have already received questions on the latest budget numbers and am doing some serious deflecting.

@dresden - thank you for the response. Never have worked in public accounting. Got my CPA as more of a signaling mechanism to potential employers. My total work experience relates to the operations finance side of things, not necessarily accounting. Despite this fact, I am well versed in accounting and speak intelligently to any accounting group about their processes. I understand the fundamentals.

Accrual

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Re: Career Advice - Late 20s CPA
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2020, 07:41:26 AM »
Hi All,

A little bit of an update. My boss gave notice and I expect the group to devolve in quick order.

How negatively would a resume gap impact future employability? I am thinking of quitting and taking a 3-6 month sabbatical.

Joel

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Re: Career Advice - Late 20s CPA (Update 6.3.2020)
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2020, 10:57:07 PM »
Given the current economy, I don’t think most people would question that gap. However, I recommend seeing what happens with your boss’ replacement first.

marty998

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Re: Career Advice - Late 20s CPA (Update 6.3.2020)
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2020, 04:13:30 AM »
Budgets tend to have to be signed off by Boards and then are unable to be changed, especially if this is a stock market listed company. This is generally because executives will be remunerated in part based on meeting budget targets.

Generally though, budget transfers are common below the executive level if teams move around between divisions or project spending is reallocated through the year... but it sounds like your boss is trying to engage in a few smoke and mirrors.

A cost centre manager is absolutely going to know if they’ve had their budget transferred to someone else. I’m surprised they are not kicking up more of a stink at you.

Echoing the sentiment above, never sign anything you are uncomfortable with or cannot defend. Keep email records of anything you feel where you’ve been asked to do something questionable (it has saved me in the past and I have had to defend myself with it).

I’m the sort of accountant who believes budgets and forecasts are a bunch of shit anyway. Reality is what matters. At the moment you are the accountant.... you present reality whether it is good or bad. The business executives are the ones accountable for that reality.

marty998

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Re: Career Advice - Late 20s CPA
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2020, 04:15:04 AM »
Hi All,

A little bit of an update. My boss gave notice and I expect the group to devolve in quick order.

How negatively would a resume gap impact future employability? I am thinking of quitting and taking a 3-6 month sabbatical.

Sorry, I’ve just seen this update. Make sure you get your entitlements. If there is doubt as to solvency, start taking your holidays now.

Accrual

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Re: Career Advice - Late 20s CPA (Update 6.3.2020)
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2020, 05:02:21 AM »
Budgets tend to have to be signed off by Boards and then are unable to be changed, especially if this is a stock market listed company. This is generally because executives will be remunerated in part based on meeting budget targets.

Generally though, budget transfers are common below the executive level if teams move around between divisions or project spending is reallocated through the year... but it sounds like your boss is trying to engage in a few smoke and mirrors.

A cost centre manager is absolutely going to know if they’ve had their budget transferred to someone else. I’m surprised they are not kicking up more of a stink at you.

Echoing the sentiment above, never sign anything you are uncomfortable with or cannot defend. Keep email records of anything you feel where you’ve been asked to do something questionable (it has saved me in the past and I have had to defend myself with it).

I’m the sort of accountant who believes budgets and forecasts are a bunch of shit anyway. Reality is what matters. At the moment you are the accountant.... you present reality whether it is good or bad. The business executives are the ones accountable for that reality.

Thank you, Marty!

I agree. Budgets are merely a mechanism to 'course correct' in order to improve actuals. I hope to talk with my boss today and express my concerns. The cards are all on the table anyways, so might as well be truthful about my reservations.

Accrual

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Re: Career Advice - Late 20s CPA
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2020, 05:21:13 AM »
Hi All,

A little bit of an update. My boss gave notice and I expect the group to devolve in quick order.

How negatively would a resume gap impact future employability? I am thinking of quitting and taking a 3-6 month sabbatical.

I'd hang on for the severance and then take the 3-6 months all expense paid mental break and re-assess your priorities, but if i knew the axe was coming down, I definitely wouldn't jump ship and miss the severance package.

I was in a similar boat as you and am also a CPA, company went in a new (bad) direction and I thought I would be fired soon enough, I was shopping around new jobs. I ended up hanging on to see how it would play out, and things got better and I am now glad I didn't leave, so I hate to echo your family, but this too MIGHT pass.

Good luck, keep on crunchin #'s

Hey fire -

I did not mean to imply that I would get fired as a result of my boss leaving. In fact, I am going to be more in demand as a result.

The issue is 1) I am burned out and 2) management will most likely not address the underlying issues, thus resulting in more demand / requests from our group. We shall see how management reacts, but I am not hopeful. I do not expect to receive severance. My financials would allow me to take 3 months off, just unsure if the gap in my resume would be fatal to future opportunities.

Daisyedwards800

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Re: Career Advice - Late 20s CPA (Update 6.3.2020)
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2020, 01:19:01 PM »
Burned out accountant here (senior) worrying about a potential 3-6 month gap as well - but sure would love the break. :/