Author Topic: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss  (Read 16672 times)

5inatrailer

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Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« on: June 18, 2014, 11:12:12 AM »
So I caught a bit of an interview of this french dude on Colbert Report last week.

He is shaking up the economics world with a new view that capitalism increases inequality.
If all you have is your labour (g), those with money invested (R)  will always make more than you as capital markets outperform labour GDP growth.

R>g

So in MMM terms, let your $$ work for you and not work FOR your money.  Great lesson learned and to be imparted to our kids..

Discuss.

BTW Book Titled:  Capitalism in the Twenty First Century.

Jamesqf

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2014, 11:20:03 AM »
I've seen a number of reviews and comments about this, but none of them ever seem to address what seems to be an elephant-in-the-living-room issue: given that capitalism increases inequality (which I think is kind of a 'duh, yeah' conclusion), what exactly is bad about inequality?

dcheesi

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2014, 11:46:12 AM »
I've seen a number of reviews and comments about this, but none of them ever seem to address what seems to be an elephant-in-the-living-room issue: given that capitalism increases inequality (which I think is kind of a 'duh, yeah' conclusion), what exactly is bad about inequality?
Ask Marie Antoinette. Increasing inequality causes social unrest and instability, eventually leading to a catastrophic failure (collapse, revolution, etc.).

On a less cold-hearted note, economic inequality leads to political inequality (power corrupts, and money is power), which means that even if we're all living better than ol' Marie did in her day, the vast majority of us are still disenfranchised --lacking any real say in the course of public affairs that matter to us.

arebelspy

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2014, 11:50:59 AM »
I've seen a number of reviews and comments about this, but none of them ever seem to address what seems to be an elephant-in-the-living-room issue: given that capitalism increases inequality (which I think is kind of a 'duh, yeah' conclusion), what exactly is bad about inequality?

I think it's not addressed and not an elephant in the room because most people take it for granted that some having more than others for reasons not due to merit is unjust.

If you're going to argue the opposite, the burden of proof is likely on you.

(I'm not saying one way or the other, and I don't care to argue it with you Jamesqf, I'm just pointing out the reason why it's likely not addressed, even though you think it's an elephant.)
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
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Huffy2k

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2014, 12:33:50 PM »
Of course capitalism increases inequality.  It also provides a means for everyone to raise their standard of living through hard work.  Capitalism is the single greatest driver of raising the quality of living in the history of man.

As far as mustachianism goes, aren't we all following the capitalism beliefs by working hard to accumulate assets so that we reach FI, a goal that automatically will place us above a majority of our peers (i.e. achieving inequality)?

5inatrailer

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2014, 12:46:39 PM »
Ah, but here's the devil's advocate;
It's not how hard you work (that is the point of the book) it's how you earn your income.

If, like MMM you earn your income from financial assets, a balanced portfolio will always outperform GDP (inflation)

7% ROI in the market is waaay better than the 0-3% increase in wages even through collective bargaining.  So you actually LOSE money after tax and inflation.

That was the point I was trying to reinforce.  Not the whole poor people are lazy, rich are just smart.  That is a conversation I don't ever intend to have with anyone ever other than my kids. 

The interview on Colbert also stresses the ability for people to be "mobile through asset classes" ie the ability for people to move up/down. Not necessarily the guarantee, but the chance to improve your position.  Otherwise, what's the point? Serfdom?

Wildflame

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2014, 01:55:12 PM »
Ah, Piketty! I've been hearing about him and Capital in the 21st Century for a while now. I would get a copy from the library, but there are SIX reservations ahead of me for it. Zzz...

The essential problem with inequality is that so long as r > g, inequality will become increasingly prominent until you have a violent correction. The only reason there hasn't been one in so long is thanks to the incredible devastation of World War and World War Redux: War Harder.

In a globalised society, the wealthiest are now much wealthier than they could ever have been. How's the phrase go? 85 people have the same wealth as the poorest half of humankind? That's one part of the issue.

The second part of the issue is that their wealth is now much more visible thanks to ever-better communications technology. You want to know about rich people being ostentatious? They're in the media, filling column inches and padding out the TV news. There's probably a half dozen Tumblrs with nothing but photos of rich people being rich. It is in your face. At least prior to say ~1800 you were only likely to see more than a handful of rich people ride by in a lifetime if you lived in one of the major cities.

The third part is human nature: we perceive inequities in wealth on a relative, not absolute, scale. This means that it does not matter that you and I are richer by hundreds or thousands of times than our great-grandparents; it matters only that there are people who are much richer than us. And we want to be them - or to stop them being richer than us. Either one will do, really. =)

Throw those three factors together and you have a recipe for major civil strife somewhere in the future. How many dispossessed workers does it take to storm the gates of a trillionaire's estate and kill them? Not many*. Sure a fair number might end up in jail afterwards but that doesn't help Mr Richly Dead.

*Estimates will vary depending on how many killer attack dog robots w/lasers the trillionaire owns for personal defence and amusement.

Another factor is that people with excess wealth have an incentive to use that wealth to influence the political process in their favour, distorting the ideal of representative and participatory democracy. How disenfranchised do peasants have to be before they become riotous? Ask the French. Hell, ask the 'Muricans. This is the problem with extreme inequality - it perverts democracy.

Up to a point, inequality is desirable. Inequality is a natural consequence of a market-based system; some people will create goods or services of greater quality than others, and be compensated more due to high demand for their products pushing the price up to equilibrium.

Communism has been tried and failed because humans work through incentives - and a person in control of the 'social' wealth has an incentive to skim some off for their own benefit. There is as yet no way to allocate resources 100% equitably that does not imply both a stifling of the incentive to work productively and an opportunity for privileged insiders to embezzle resources.

But how do we ensure we have a Goldilocks level of inequality? Redistribution and taxation, apparently.

The real question that the proposition r > g raises is: how much redistribution should the State perform in order to mitigate inequality without causing capital flight or destroying the incentive to work productively? Taxation affects the net return, r, so increasing taxation can bring r in line with g. It also mitigates inequality when used to distribute wealth to the poor. But in doing so, it destroys the incentive to invest.

The best taxation solutions I have heard of are taxing wealth directly, rather than income or consumption, and/or taxing land (which as the sole resource of production which is immobile, cannot simply be packed in a crate and flown out of the country). Taxing wealth is ideal because it ensures that wealth is being dedicated to the most productive use in order to maintain and increase its value despite the erosion of inflation* and taxation. The difficulty with taxing wealth rather than income is that it is a lot lot lot lot lot harder to track wealth than income, and it is much more difficult to apportion the 'wealth' due. How should a Chinese citizen be taxed on an investment in an Australian company that operates a factory in Bangladesh? Again, land taxation has the advantage of being relatively clear and unambiguous, but is distortionary in other ways. A company such as Google would pay a lot more in wealth tax than in land tax because it produces very high wealth for the land area it uses. A farm, on the other hand, uses a lot of land to produce a much smaller amount of wealth. Neither are neat solutions.

*There is an argument that inflation already acts as a de facto tax on wealth, by eroding its value. One proposal to counter wealth accumulation is to push up central banks' inflation targets to 3-4 or even 5%. However, in other areas inflation acts as a regressive and non-linear consumption tax, pushing up the prices of goods - which, as poorer people have the highest propensity to consume, may result in their being worse off. This is doubly so because wages and welfare transfers tend to be indexed to inflation in arrears rather than in advance due to the difficulty of predicting future inflation.

A second alternative is to institute effective and progressive death taxes, to prevent the entrenchment of wealth and privilege. This does not solve the immediate problem of people with money to throw around meddling in politics, but makes it more difficult for inequality to progress across generations. Death is the logical point for an anti-inequality measure to take effect. If you made it genuinely progressive up to even 99.9% for billionaires, their offspring will still have tens of millions of dollars left - plenty for a very comfortable existence, but majorly compressing inequality at the handover point. I'm assuming a marginal progressive system, 0% for the first million say, then 50% of the next million, etc etc, so as to avoid fuckery with sneaking just under thresholds.

I note that certain relatively enlightened wealthy individuals (Gates, Buffett) have already indicated they are giving away most or all of their fortunes to charities upon their death. I suspect this is because they don't want their children to turn into old money. After all, even $1m can support a comfortable quasi-mustachian lifestyle anywhere in the world if the investor has half a brain. How much more day-to-day happiness can $1b buy than $1m or $10m?

To be honest, I think a strong and very progressive death duty is the long-term solution. It does not penalise massive wealth accumulation during a lifetime, provided that wealth is then converted to consumption during the person's lifetime (which drives another person's income, distributing wealth around the economy) or is diverted to societal benefit (whether via the state or charity) upon decease.

Please disagree with me. I want to hear a contrasting opinion!

EDIT: Fixed poor grammar.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 02:06:18 PM by Wildflame »

Beridian

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2014, 02:06:08 PM »
I've seen a number of reviews and comments about this, but none of them ever seem to address what seems to be an elephant-in-the-living-room issue: given that capitalism increases inequality (which I think is kind of a 'duh, yeah' conclusion), what exactly is bad about inequality?


Capitalism is really economic Darwinism.   The fittest advance and the weaker languish.  Simple enough.  The difficulty arises because all humans inhabit the same planet.  If their were assigned continents for the wealthy and the poor, it would probably be more tenable.   But increasing the wealthy and the poor are living in close proximity, and with the free flow of information the poor certainly have a sense of what they are missing out on.   We are seeing increasingly alarming instances of religious fanaticism, sectarian violence, and political corruption.   If we could wall ourselves off from this then maybe we could live is a pure capitalist utopia, but we cannot reasonably separate ourselves from those less fortunate than ourselves (nor in my opinion should we).

We therefore are forced to find ways to "water down" pure capitalism with varying degrees of socialism in order to make the lives of the poor somewhat better and hopefully preserve a peaceful coexistence for all.  If we thumb our noses at the poor and leave them to shift for themselves it is only a matter of time until their collective wrath explodes into ugly violence and civil strife.  We also hopefully have some sense of humanity and have some interest and compassion for caring for the poor.

I have been in a few deep discussions with pure-capitalist ultra-libertarian types.  Their ideas make sense on paper, but they will not function given the real life circumstances of any planet that I am familiar with.

MDM

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2014, 02:14:38 PM »
Taxing wealth is ideal because it ensures that wealth is being dedicated to the most productive use....

Who decides what is "most productive"?

Schaefer Light

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2014, 02:41:30 PM »
I've seen a number of reviews and comments about this, but none of them ever seem to address what seems to be an elephant-in-the-living-room issue: given that capitalism increases inequality (which I think is kind of a 'duh, yeah' conclusion), what exactly is bad about inequality?


Capitalism is really economic Darwinism.   The fittest advance and the weaker languish.  Simple enough.  The difficulty arises because all humans inhabit the same planet.  If their were assigned continents for the wealthy and the poor, it would probably be more tenable.   But increasing the wealthy and the poor are living in close proximity, and with the free flow of information the poor certainly have a sense of what they are missing out on.   We are seeing increasingly alarming instances of religious fanaticism, sectarian violence, and political corruption.   If we could wall ourselves off from this then maybe we could live is a pure capitalist utopia, but we cannot reasonably separate ourselves from those less fortunate than ourselves (nor in my opinion should we).

We therefore are forced to find ways to "water down" pure capitalism with varying degrees of socialism in order to make the lives of the poor somewhat better and hopefully preserve a peaceful coexistence for all.  If we thumb our noses at the poor and leave them to shift for themselves it is only a matter of time until their collective wrath explodes into ugly violence and civil strife.  We also hopefully have some sense of humanity and have some interest and compassion for caring for the poor.

I have been in a few deep discussions with pure-capitalist ultra-libertarian types.  Their ideas make sense on paper, but they will not function given the real life circumstances of any planet that I am familiar with.
I'm one of those pure-capitalist ultra-libertarian types, but I'm also a Christian.  Does the Bible not teach us that we shouldn't be jealous of what others have?  I seem to remember a passage about "thou shall not covet".  Life is much better when you just worry about yourself and your own well-being and don't waste your time worrying about (or being jealous of) what others have.

Beridian

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2014, 02:41:39 PM »
.....
To be honest, I think a strong and very progressive death duty is the long-term solution. It does not penalise massive wealth accumulation during a lifetime, provided that wealth is then converted to consumption during the person's lifetime (which drives another person's income, distributing wealth around the economy) or is diverted to societal benefit (whether via the state or charity) upon decease.

Please disagree with me. I want to hear a contrasting opinion!

EDIT: Fixed poor grammar.

I agree that a substantial death tax would be a good approach.   One idea that I have to blunt the influence of wealth on politics would be a graduated tax on political contributions and lobbying, starting as a small percentage for the first few thousand dollars then growing on a logarithmic scale such that massive amounts from a single source spent on political influence are taxed at 99.9%.   Of course neither the death tax nor the tax on political contributions stand any chance of occurring given that the wealthy now have a vise-grip lock on our political process.

I also think that the human race needs to get over itself, wake up and smell the coffee, and have some serious collective discussions about our future.   As unpalatable as it may seem to many, I think that humanity at some point is going to have to embrace some eugenic principals and be much more selective about the nature of any new humans we bring to live on our planet.  The right for anyone to procreate as much they see fit will ultimately hit a wall as the planet becomes increasingly more crowded.  It seems reasonable to me that humans have a collective interest in insuring that new children born have good prospects and posses the traits needed for a reasonable shot at a successful life. 

Khan

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2014, 02:46:27 PM »
No, I think the issue is that money is speech, the US is now actually rated as an oligarchy, and corporations enjoy acting as rent-seeking entities more than competing. Economic inequality, in the face of those issues, and the wealth that was the fortunes of the middle class during the second half of the 20th century in the developed world, instead of the past soup lines, feudalism, and other far more tiered social and economic power relations.

With language from the likes of Mitt Romney, that 47% of Americans are "Takers", and the libertarian wings of the rich who place little value on social institutions, the luck they had, and the infrastructure that supported their own wealth generation, along with the disdain for the disadvantaged(because obviously anyone not wealthy is just a welfare-queen who didn't ever put forth any effort in society).

Today's social mobility in the US is lower than our own history and our ...personal story would have you believe.

US is an oligarchy:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/21/americas-oligarchy-not-democracy-or-republic-unive/
Social mobility:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the_United_States
ISP's attempting to act as rent seekers, when 96% of people in the US have the "choice" of only 2 or fewer ISP's(and ISP's have the lowest consumer satisfaction levels of any industry)
http://www.vox.com/2014/5/5/5683642/five-big-internet-providers-are-slowing-down-internet-access-until
http://bgr.com/2013/05/21/american-isp-customer-satisfaction-rankings/

Or the John Oliver clip about ISP's being more hated, than banks stealing people's houses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpbOEoRrHyU&feature=kp

I thought that one of the great things about the social safety net, is that in capitalism, there -will- be losers. The social safety net, I thought, was an attempt at edging out the worst effects of that. But the poor, who are disadvantaged by predatory practices, lack of financial literacy(and because they're poor, it's harder to even get good thoughts about money through all the other concerns going on in their heads), who are subject to increasingly bad wages(because the ideal minimum wage apparently is 0, and bigger entities than the voices of the poor[oligarchy, remember?] such as Darden Restaurants, and McDonalds would like to see wages not rise(especially that delicious tipped-worker loophole).
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/08/29/216784944/how-money-worries-can-scramble-your-thinking

Setting up a system where Walmart workers can be exploited by Walmart, and then spat on by everybody else, as they go to get their "Obama bucks" because Walmart refuses to pay them a higher wage, which would have knock on affects throughout the entire system, is just unsustainable. It's further unsustainable to continue lowering the wealthy's tax rate's, because, you know, trickle down economics(literally the rich pissing on everyone else) because they are "job creators™".


I think the real big thing about Piketty, is he puts a large amount of data to work explaining this, instead of the general discontent that we've been seeing since the financial crash, where Wall St. was bailed out and Main St. has continued to be left hanging.

There is another book which just came out, which is also making waves, "House of Debt", which makes a parallel point that the US would have been better served by allowing mortgage renegotiation's following the crash. Some people are hailing it as the most important economic book of 2014.(Take note that this is at the same time that Capitalism in the 21st century is being called the biggest economic book to come out in the 21st Millenium, so that's pretty high praise).
http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/H/bo17241623.html
http://www.businessinsider.com/larry-summers-takes-a-big-shot-at-thomas-piketty-2014-6

And lastly, I leave you with "Divide", the book that talks about the radical divide in American justice between the "haves", and the "have nots". You know, people suffering from "affluenza".
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/13/books/review/the-divide-by-matt-taibbi.html
http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/05/16/5827047/judge-to-weigh-decision-on-affluenza.html

Beridian

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2014, 02:57:41 PM »
I'm one of those pure-capitalist ultra-libertarian types, but I'm also a Christian.  Does the Bible not teach us that we shouldn't be jealous of what others have?  I seem to remember a passage about "thou shall not covet".  Life is much better when you just worry about yourself and your own well-being and don't waste your time worrying about (or being jealous of) what others have.[/i]


Yeah, I believe the bible does say something along those lines.  Doesn't the bible also admonish against murder, adultery, and theft?  And of course those things never occur do they?

I am proud of all my self-starting self-motivated friends who work hard and do all the right things.  But the reality is that there are millions of individuals out there who for various reasons make the wrong decisions or lack the capacity to self-improve.  And as I alluded to earlier, we share the planet with such folks and wish as we may they are not going away.

Khan

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2014, 02:58:34 PM »
The bible also says
Matthew 19:24
Quote
And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"…

Which always confuses the hell out of me when people talk about the wealthy as some morally superior class of people.

Jamesqf

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2014, 03:11:11 PM »
Ask Marie Antoinette. Increasing inequality causes social unrest and instability, eventually leading to a catastrophic failure (collapse, revolution, etc.).

On the contrary, the Marie Antoinette situation is not caused by inequality per se, it's due to the bottom having nothing, and no real chance of changing that except through revolution.  But in the capitalist world of today, virtually everyone has a good deal - including plenty of food, even if their choice is "let us eat Big Macs".

Quote
On a less cold-hearted note, economic inequality leads to political inequality (power corrupts, and money is power), which means that even if we're all living better than ol' Marie did in her day, the vast majority of us are still disenfranchised --lacking any real say in the course of public affairs that matter to us.

Which would still be true if everyone was economically equal, because (as you may recall) "some animals are more equal than others".  Further, since political inequality is a given, I for one would prefer that the voices of the productive be given more weight than the voices of louts and layabouts.

I think it's not addressed and not an elephant in the room because most people take it for granted that some having more than others for reasons not due to merit is unjust.

The important distinction here is the part I've underlined.  In a capitalist society, having more is usually due to merit.  For example, most of us here probably have, or aspire to have, far more in the way of invested assets than the average (either of the population as a whole, or of people in similar careers/life stages).  I'll argue that this is almost entirely due to our merits, as we exercise our frugality muscles, learn to invest wisely, etc.


The bible also says
Matthew 19:24
Quote
And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"…

Which always confuses the hell out of me when people talk about the wealthy as some morally superior class of people.

Which might be relevant if you are a Christian, or took the Bible as any sort of guide to ethics*.  I'm not, and I don't.

*I prefer the term ethics to morality, since the latter word tends to be too tied into sexual behavior.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 03:14:44 PM by Jamesqf »

Khan

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2014, 03:24:43 PM »
I'm not a Christian either James, but I find it interesting in a "Christian" society, with most people professing their Christianity, that they still glorify wealth.

Also, I'm fairly certain you lean towards economic libertarianism, and I want to make the case: I'm not, and having seen several Piketty interviews, I'm pretty sure he's not arguing for forceful equality.

However, attempting to level opportunity equality(even partially) is a very important thing to society. The most important predictor of SAT scores is parent's income.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/03/05/these-four-charts-show-how-the-sat-favors-the-rich-educated-families/

Anecdotally, as a white male child of the middle class and a Navy veteran(and thus satisfying several important wickets), I found it very, very easy to find my way into a middle-upper middle class job where I sit on my ass waiting for a reason to push the proverbial button for most of my time at work.

Quote
"The upper middle class has grown...and its composition has changed. Increasingly salaried managers and professionals have replaced individual business owners and independent professionals. The key to the success of the upper middle class is the growing importance of educational certification... its lifestyles and opinions are becoming increasingly normative for the whole society. It is in fact a porous class, open to people... who earn the right credentials."- Dennis Gilbert, The American Class Structure, 1998.[5]

Beridian

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2014, 03:34:50 PM »
Ask Marie Antoinette. Increasing inequality causes social unrest and instability, eventually leading to a catastrophic failure (collapse, revolution, etc.).

On the contrary, the Marie Antoinette situation is not caused by inequality per se, it's due to the bottom having nothing, and no real chance of changing that except through revolution.  But in the capitalist world of today, virtually everyone has a good deal - including plenty of food, even if their choice is "let us eat Big Macs".

Quote
On a less cold-hearted note, economic inequality leads to political inequality (power corrupts, and money is power), which means that even if we're all living better than ol' Marie did in her day, the vast majority of us are still disenfranchised --lacking any real say in the course of public affairs that matter to us.

Which would still be true if everyone was economically equal, because (as you may recall) "some animals are more equal than others".  Further, since political inequality is a given, I for one would prefer that the voices of the productive be given more weight than the voices of louts and layabouts.

I think it's not addressed and not an elephant in the room because most people take it for granted that some having more than others for reasons not due to merit is unjust.

The important distinction here is the part I've underlined.  In a capitalist society, having more is usually due to merit.  For example, most of us here probably have, or aspire to have, far more in the way of invested assets than the average (either of the population as a whole, or of people in similar careers/life stages).  I'll argue that this is almost entirely due to our merits, as we exercise our frugality muscles, learn to invest wisely, etc.


The bible also says
Matthew 19:24
Quote
And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"…

Which always confuses the hell out of me when people talk about the wealthy as some morally superior class of people.

Which might be relevant if you are a Christian, or took the Bible as any sort of guide to ethics*.  I'm not, and I don't.

*I prefer the term ethics to morality, since the latter word tends to be too tied into sexual behavior.

"In a capitalist society, having more is usually due to merit.  "

I have to throw the bullshit flag on that one.  Many people are born with lower IQs, are born into dysfunctional families, live in crime infested blighted neighborhoods, have various disabilities, or have experienced some unfortunate setback such as an illness.  I acknowledge that there are a select few exceptional individuals who overcome such obstacles that are insurmountable for many others.

Here are some key "merits" you should strive for if you would like to be rich:

(1) Be born in North America, Western Europe, or the prosperous pacific rim.
(2) Be born white.
(3) Be born physically and mentally fit (and ideally attractive).
(4) Be born to competent, attentive, and prosperous parents.
(5) Be raised in a community with good role models, lots of healthy opportunities, and free from crime, drugs, and blight.
(6) Avoid injury and illness, war, famine, civil strife, and natural disasters of all sorts.

Do these things and your odds of being wealthy sky rocket compared to the rest of humanity.
 

« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 03:58:50 PM by Beridian »

surfhb

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2014, 05:17:43 PM »
^^^

Bingo!    It's interesting the amount of folks who have jumped the Libertarian Bandwagon in the last 10 years.   

Bottom line is not everyone is going to do as well as you or me.   I also happen to share the same street, city, state, country and planet with these people.    A fair amount of socialism is required to not only as a safety net but to benefit the community.    I couldn't imagine the crime rates and social discourse if millions of people were thrown to the curb as Libertarians suggest we do .    I fucking hate seeing people take advantage of the social programs we have in America but unfortunately that's going to be a byproduct.   Maybe a better and reworked educational system might change things?   Who knows?   That always seems to be the first to be cut when we tighten our belts.

Btw.....if Jesus were alive today he would hippie, March on Wall St liberal.    You're kiddie yourself to think otherwise
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 05:47:36 PM by surfhb »

Jamesqf

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2014, 05:42:36 PM »
"In a capitalist society, having more is usually due to merit.  "

I have to throw the bullshit flag on that one.  Many people are born with lower IQs, are born into dysfunctional families, live in crime infested blighted neighborhoods, have various disabilities, or have experienced some unfortunate setback such as an illness.

And the point?  We know that nature does not distribute its gifts equally.  For instance, the 'merits' which leads to success as a pro basketball player include being over 6'6" tall, well-coordinated, and able to accurately toss a round ball through a hoop.  They are probably largely determined by genetics, and are significantly influenced by environment (that is, whether you grew up where playing basketball is commonplace).   Which means that roughly 99% of American men have basically zero chance of ever playing pro basketball. 

However, the point here is that a person does not need to have the particular merits that make an NBA player to be reasonably successful - I doubt Bill Gates would have much of a chance at any pro sport - but needs only to use whatever abilities he or she has in a sensible way.  There are literally millions of people who overcome such adverse circumstances as you list to become reasonably successful.  Of course only an exceptional few overcome them to become billionaires, but that's because there are few billionaires - duh!  Even fewer people inherit billions.

For numbers (from http://www.chicagobooth.edu/capideas/magazine/summer-2013/billionaires-self-made ), 32% of the 2011 Forbes 400 grew up rich, 20% came from poor circumstances, the rest were middle to upper middle class.   That 20% number is interesting, since (per Google) the overall poverty rate in the US is about 15%, and for children it is - guess what? - about 20%.  So it would seem that a child growing up poor has just about an average chance of winding up a billionaire.

Quote
(1) Be born in North America, Western Europe, or the prosperous pacific rim.

Yes, this is the part of the world under discussion.


Bottom line is not everyone is going to do as well as you or me.

But except for a small percentage who're born with mental or physical handicaps, or acquire them later, their not doing as well as you or me is largely due to their lifestyle choices.  If they'd rather live paycheck to paycheck while playing the consumerist game, who am I to deny them the right to make that choice?  And why should I, and others like me, be penalized because they choose to live what they apparently believe is a more enjoyable life?

Quote
Btw.....Jesus was the original hippie liberal.    You're kiddie yourself to think otherwise

But who cares what Jesus was or wasn't?

surfhb

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2014, 05:59:48 PM »
Yes.....when tearing away every piece of the onion,they generally make those life style choices based on the fact they were born poor and to uneducated parents.    Do you see the cycle now?   

How do we correct the problem?   Stop all social programs so these people are forced to work, save and be mustachian?    Lol


« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 06:02:48 PM by surfhb »

Wildflame

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2014, 06:04:08 PM »
Taxing wealth is ideal because it ensures that wealth is being dedicated to the most productive use....

Who decides what is "most productive"?

Simple: the highest yield the investor is willing to accept for the risk they take. The effect of a wealth tax as I understand it is to encourage money to be pushed towards higher risk, higher yield ventures to compensate for the erosion of the value of that wealth through inflation and the tax. It's not a philosophical or authoritarian decision - "I shall decide what is most productive!" - but an economic and pragmatic one. Would you be willing to sit tons of cash in a term deposit earning 4% if inflation was 2% and your wealth tax was 2%?

Life is much better when you just worry about yourself and your own well-being and don't waste your time worrying about (or being jealous of) what others have.

Avoids the problem nicely, and is one of the fundamentals to the Mustachian way. =)
However, it does not negate the prospect of those with wealth corrupting the political system and passing laws to take your stuff away to give it to them. It is awfully lefty to like redistribution, but only if it goes from the rich to the poor, not the other way. It is naturally pure coincidence that many who express lefty views are likely to be on the receiving end of such redistribution. ^_^ (That's a criticism of unenlightened self-interest and stereotypes of lefties, not of social welfare. I'm just snarking)

One idea that I have to blunt the influence of wealth on politics would be a graduated tax on political contributions and lobbying, starting as a small percentage for the first few thousand dollars then growing on a logarithmic scale such that massive amounts from a single source spent on political influence are taxed at 99.9%. 

As unpalatable as it may seem to many, I think that humanity at some point is going to have to embrace some eugenic principles and be much more selective about the nature of any new humans we bring to live on our planet.  The right for anyone to procreate as much they see fit will ultimately hit a wall as the planet becomes increasingly more crowded.  It seems reasonable to me that humans have a collective interest in insuring that new children born have good prospects and posses the traits needed for a reasonable shot at a successful life. 

I agree in principle with both of those ideas. However, as you have well noted, in practice they are not feasible. I also think it would be amusing as an alternative to force all political contributions to be taken anonymously into a central collection, from which parties are allocated funds based on the proportion of votes they received in the previous election.

I take heart in knowing that there is a negative correlation between wealth and fertility, which appears to taper off around the replacement rate. That at least indicates that without further intervention on the parts of beneficent eugenicists the problem will slow (though not vanish) of its own accord. I think the environmental sustainability movement will help to promote the idea of achieving a stable population, too.

As regards the correlation between Christianity, Protestant Christianity in particular, and conservatism, it's more nuanced than appears on the surface. There's a whole body of work in psychology dedicated to understanding the Protestant Work Ethic. I also want to direct people to a recent paper I found of interest, which found distinct correlations between dogmatism, needs for order, structure and closure, death anxiety and fear of threat or loss with conservative political views: http://faculty.virginia.edu/haidtlab/jost.glaser.political-conservatism-as-motivated-social-cog.pdf. Take a skim.


My personal political persuasion is pragmatic market socialism. There is a place for the market and a place for the State; generally the State steps in where the market fails. The market fails to prevent extreme relative inequality or absolute poverty; the State should prevent this to mitigate overall human suffering. The market fails to guarantee a certain minimum standard of quality and safety; the State should step in to make that guarantee. But it is equally true that the State can overreach: to prescribe labels on shirts that say "do not iron while wearing" or require twenty kinds of licenses and approvals to remove a tree on your own property. To go to one extreme, I recently looked up the planning document for a local council. The stupid thing ran to 800 pages of prescription as to what you may or may not do with various kinds of land! "Sustainable development" ie cramming all the people into tiny suburban blocks near a handful of rural towns. Making the assessment as to where the State should start and stop is very difficult; should we be guided by the principle of "if in doubt, let the market work it out" or "if in doubt, rule it out"? Sigh... Obviously the answer is to get Google to finish inventing Skynet and let it worry about these things. =P

I go with "if in doubt, let the market work it out" - you can always legislate later if the problem you foresee actually eventuates, assuming your cost-benefit analysis didn't indicate the consequences would be so severe that it was worth almost any cost to prevent it. If you pre-emptively over-regulate, you can never know what innovation or development might have been possible if the rules were even the slightest bit laxer.

@surfhb: I consider the main failing of Libertarianism to be that it fails to consider that so many people are not free to make their own decisions because they are shackled by their impoverished past (not necessarily financially - emotional, physical or social impoverishment can be just as effective at twisting and distorting one's perspective). Given this, surely Libertarians would be willing to sacrifice some small part of their own freedom to foster much greater freedoms in their fellow man, such that the net sum of freedom and liberty is maximised? (Yes yes, I know, I'm putting up a straw man by suggesting that libertarians are just utilitarians who happen to think in terms of liberty-utils instead of happiness-utils.) BREAKING NEWS: according to wikipedia, the most trustworthy source in the universe, there is a political philosophy known as "libertarian socialism", which is basically communist anarchism but with better dental.

@Jamesqf: the essential argument for 'taxing the rich' is that the 'rich' have already extracted from their workers a surplus - that's where their disproportionate wealth comes from. Were they merely capable of earning more than a typical, less meritorious worker, then that would be fine. The problem is not the fact that some people can earn more than others through their skills. The problem is r > g: it is possible to extract more wealth from an economy by owning a chunk of it than it is by working more productively (which causes g). The rationale for intervening to curb extreme inequality is that those resources were extracted from the workers in the first place, so taxation just takes some of it back. Note that nobody here is advocating the absolute expropriation of the top x%'s assets. I merely note that even if you took 99% of a billionaire's assets on death, that person's offspring would be so wealthy they would never need to work in their lives, nor most likely the generation after that.

How does this affect you? Well, to be honest, more aggressive wealth taxation might even reduce the tax burden on you, particularly if you are a relatively high-earning salaried employee. Wealth taxes don't kick in at normal, plebian amounts of wealth; I like the $1m threshold, because with a 4% SWR that gives an amount around the level of the median wage. Beyond that point, you are rich by any standards. If you are rich, you disproportionately benefit from the advantages that society offers: protection of property rights (police and fire services, a justice system to enforce contracts etc) and a supply of educated workers who perform the actual labour from which r gets extracted.

Make no mistake. Every person on this board is taking advantage of r > g, or will be soon. It's how Mustachianism works - having capital work for you, by taking a chunk from the labour of others. The fact that we do this means we are responsible in part for ensuring at least the minimal well-being of those who through poor fortune, merit or idiocy are not currently and will never earn themselves any delicious r. So we should discuss how best to allocate the weighty responsibility of caring for our fellow beings. And I propose we start by ensuring that those bastards who are richer than us pay their fair share (as long as it's much much bigger than our share!).

EDIT: I accidentally a ( here and an extreme there.
EDIT2: Best phrase ever. I now have a signature!
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 06:09:17 PM by Wildflame »

Khan

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2014, 06:15:03 PM »

+ 1 to your entire post.

Also, I find myself very sympathetic to libertarian socialism, unfortunately the libertarian party seems to have little space for people that don't believe in the Free Market's ability to handle things.

Redfive20

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2014, 06:52:26 PM »
Based on the recent statistics, it seems that the top 0.001% of people in income is getting richer much faster than everyone else in US. It also said that people who can effectively avoid of significant portion of tax are ones who have at least $50 million asset. I guess that none of people in this forum belong to that elite group. We are all  working class people. For us, the relative extra money some of us can make is just a rounding noise for this elite group.

Beridian

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2014, 07:14:25 PM »

+ 1 to your entire post.

Also, I find myself very sympathetic to libertarian socialism, unfortunately the libertarian party seems to have little space for people that don't believe in the Free Market's ability to handle things.

+2 for Wildflame's post.

I think the major failing with all the political philosophies is the trend toward absolutism and extremism.  There are many concepts within libertarian-ism that I agree with, I just cannot swallow the whole motza-ball.  Same with conservative versus liberal, etc., they all have valid positions as well as some absurd ones.  The truth is somewhere in the middle.   We need a blend of philosophies and moderates who can behave like diplomatic statesmen.  Extremism will be the downfall of humanity

MDM

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2014, 07:56:44 PM »
Taxing wealth is ideal because it ensures that wealth is being dedicated to the most productive use....

Who decides what is "most productive"?

Simple: the highest yield the investor is willing to accept for the risk they take. The effect of a wealth tax as I understand it is to encourage money to be pushed towards higher risk, higher yield ventures to compensate for the erosion of the value of that wealth through inflation and the tax. It's not a philosophical or authoritarian decision - "I shall decide what is most productive!" - but an economic and pragmatic one. Would you be willing to sit tons of cash in a term deposit earning 4% if inflation was 2% and your wealth tax was 2%?

If you are discussing a wealth tax in conjunction with simultaneous decreases to income, capital gain, etc. taxes that's one thing.  If you are discussing the addition of a wealth tax on top of the existing progressive tax system, that's another.  E.g., see http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2012/08/17/how-would-warren-buffett-feel-about-paying-a-billion-per-year/ and http://www.stanford.edu/~mckinnon/briefs/The%20conservative%20Case%20for%20a%20Wealth%20Tax%20(Rev).pdf.  Which (if either) do you have in mind?

My guess (and it's only a guess), is that most of the general public thinks of a wealth tax from the "soak the rich" perspective, and only a small percentage consider it a way to "coerce productive investment".

deborah

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2014, 01:19:05 AM »
Many years ago a workmate was doing his MBA. His lecturer said that the standard of living in Australia had DOUBLED every generation since 1850s. I expect the same had happened in the US.

Think about it. In the 1850s people flocked to Australia for the gold rushes. Whole families lived in tents (or one roomed cabins). The wealthy lived in incredible mansions. People lived much the same all over the world - the poor lived in similar dwellings, and the rich lived in similar dwellings. I'm not sure there was much disparity between countries.

Between the 1850s and the 2000s the difference in the standard of living between people in capitalist countries, like Australia and the US appears to me to have dramatically reduced - the poor are much closer in wealth to the rich than they were. And in qualitative terms, there is no question. People in the 1850s routinely died of hunger - especially women and children who had been left destitute when the breadwinner (and he really was a bread winner) died. Now, it is just a difference between the number of toys a family can afford.

The non-capitalist countries didn't increase their standard of living to the extent the capitalist countries did.

History tells me that Piketty is bunkum. I'm on the wait list for the book, but I won't get it - there are 80 on the wait list, and you fall off the wait list after a year. The library is getting 2 copies. Each person can have a copy for 4 weeks. There are 6 people after me on the list so far.

Khan

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2014, 04:46:51 AM »
Many years ago a workmate was doing his MBA. His lecturer said that the standard of living in Australia had DOUBLED every generation since 1850s. I expect the same had happened in the US.

Think about it. In the 1850s people flocked to Australia for the gold rushes. Whole families lived in tents (or one roomed cabins). The wealthy lived in incredible mansions. People lived much the same all over the world - the poor lived in similar dwellings, and the rich lived in similar dwellings. I'm not sure there was much disparity between countries.

Between the 1850s and the 2000s the difference in the standard of living between people in capitalist countries, like Australia and the US appears to me to have dramatically reduced - the poor are much closer in wealth to the rich than they were. And in qualitative terms, there is no question. People in the 1850s routinely died of hunger - especially women and children who had been left destitute when the breadwinner (and he really was a bread winner) died. Now, it is just a difference between the number of toys a family can afford.

The non-capitalist countries didn't increase their standard of living to the extent the capitalist countries did.

History tells me that Piketty is bunkum. I'm on the wait list for the book, but I won't get it - there are 80 on the wait list, and you fall off the wait list after a year. The library is getting 2 copies. Each person can have a copy for 4 weeks. There are 6 people after me on the list so far.

The book is not an argument against capitalism, it's about how barring shocks to the system(wars, revolutions), or a slightly better incentive system(why he's recommending a wealth tax of <~1% per year on large levels of wealth just to slow down the growing inequality), the rate of growth of capital has been historically higher than the rate of growth of the economy, ergo: Those with money capture more of the money in the system as time goes by.

Or in other words: Walmart and the stock owners of Walmart have been capturing the gains of Walmart, and the workers of Walmart have been getting screwed.

He has the data to support this argument. FT tried to debunk it, but they failed miserably, and hurt their own reputation somewhat in doing so(by making a bigger deal of tiny changes to the numbers that didn't actually affect the trend, and using an entirely different methodology which underreports the numbers in the UK midway through, see Piketty's debunking of THEM).

You can read a review of the book. Vox did a teardown. Chris Hayes did a 30 minute interview with Piketty. Krugman did a review.


People respond to incentives. Larger macro trends can be created with the addition or subtraction of what initially is a minor rounding error. Try to push for home ownership rates? Unemployment rates might go up as people are more attached to an area and not able to shift around as readily as the job market. Tax advantage CEO compensation in the form of stocks? Than board's and executives will be more likely to take those forms of compensation. Create a trade and tariff system that "forgets" a country like Bangladesh for various reasons, and then you get link related.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/05/14/184019151/episode-458-bangladeshs-t-shirt-economy

Schaefer Light

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2014, 08:03:41 AM »
Quote
Here are some key "merits" you should strive for if you would like to be rich:

(1) Be born in North America, Western Europe, or the prosperous pacific rim.
(2) Be born white.
(3) Be born physically and mentally fit (and ideally attractive).
(4) Be born to competent, attentive, and prosperous parents.
(5) Be raised in a community with good role models, lots of healthy opportunities, and free from crime, drugs, and blight.
(6) Avoid injury and illness, war, famine, civil strife, and natural disasters of all sorts.

Do these things and your odds of being wealthy sky rocket compared to the rest of humanity.
I prefer the list below.  Do these things in the correct order, and you have almost zero chance of being poor.

1) Graduate from high school
2) Get a job
3) Get married
4) Have kids

I'm not saying that you have to do all 4 of these things as you could easily stop at step 2 and be alright.  You just cannot move on to steps 3 and 4 before completing steps 1 and 2.

Schaefer Light

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2014, 08:07:57 AM »
I'm one of those pure-capitalist ultra-libertarian types, but I'm also a Christian.  Does the Bible not teach us that we shouldn't be jealous of what others have?  I seem to remember a passage about "thou shall not covet".  Life is much better when you just worry about yourself and your own well-being and don't waste your time worrying about (or being jealous of) what others have.[/i]


Yeah, I believe the bible does say something along those lines.  Doesn't the bible also admonish against murder, adultery, and theft?  And of course those things never occur do they?

I am proud of all my self-starting self-motivated friends who work hard and do all the right things.  But the reality is that there are millions of individuals out there who for various reasons make the wrong decisions or lack the capacity to self-improve.  And as I alluded to earlier, we share the planet with such folks and wish as we may they are not going away.
I don't expect them to go away any time soon, but I'm not okay with the government taking my money by force and giving it to people who have done nothing to earn it.

Tetsuya Hondo

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2014, 08:14:18 AM »
I think the major failing with all the political philosophies is the trend toward absolutism and extremism.  There are many concepts within libertarian-ism that I agree with, I just cannot swallow the whole motza-ball.  Same with conservative versus liberal, etc., they all have valid positions as well as some absurd ones.  The truth is somewhere in the middle.   We need a blend of philosophies and moderates who can behave like diplomatic statesmen.  Extremism will be the downfall of humanity

Thank you.

If you ever find yourself saying that "liberals/conservatives/libertarians/socialists/etc. are idiots/traitors/evil/etc" then that's a sure sign that you're living in an informational bubble. No ideology ever has or ever will be anywhere near 100% correct on all issues and all evolve over time. Many of the positions that we're willing to kill each other over today will seem quaint, if not laughable, in 50 years.

Tetsuya Hondo

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2014, 08:27:21 AM »
History tells me that Piketty is bunkum. I'm on the wait list for the book, but I won't get it - there are 80 on the wait list, and you fall off the wait list after a year. The library is getting 2 copies. Each person can have a copy for 4 weeks. There are 6 people after me on the list so far.

I haven't got my hands on a copy of the book yet, but I'm pretty sure that Piketty is not anti-capitalism as you seem to be stating. Rather, he's arguing that it needs to corrective measures in place from time to time to make it work better.

Beridian

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2014, 08:34:23 AM »
I'm one of those pure-capitalist ultra-libertarian types, but I'm also a Christian.  Does the Bible not teach us that we shouldn't be jealous of what others have?  I seem to remember a passage about "thou shall not covet".  Life is much better when you just worry about yourself and your own well-being and don't waste your time worrying about (or being jealous of) what others have.[/i]


Yeah, I believe the bible does say something along those lines.  Doesn't the bible also admonish against murder, adultery, and theft?  And of course those things never occur do they?

I am proud of all my self-starting self-motivated friends who work hard and do all the right things.  But the reality is that there are millions of individuals out there who for various reasons make the wrong decisions or lack the capacity to self-improve.  And as I alluded to earlier, we share the planet with such folks and wish as we may they are not going away.
I don't expect them to go away any time soon, but I'm not okay with the government taking my money by force and giving it to people who have done nothing to earn it.

Nobody is taking your money by force.  You implicitly agree to pay your share when you are a member of a society.  Living in a civilized place with things like roads, hospitals, schools, and public safety costs money.  If you find the terms untenable here in the US, I understand places like Somalia have very low taxes and you are free to behave pretty much any way you choose.

eccdogg

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2014, 09:09:27 AM »
There are many methodological issues with Picketty's work.  You can get a good take here from a slightly left of center economist.

http://users.nber.org/~jwolfers/papers/Comments/Piketty.pdf

Inequality is not primarily rising because R>G, but because salaries have risen so much at the top.  Personally I think the high salaries of top earners and stagnate wages of low earners (wages is key here because total compensation has not been flat) is driven by globalization/technology.  You have 1 billion Chinese entering the world labor market and mass immigration of low skilled labor from south of the border that increased labor supply puts a lot of pressure on low skilled wages in the developed world.  While this is bad for some folks in the developed world don't for get that the same process has pulled 500 Million! Chinese people out of DIRE poverty less than $1 per day poverty.  At the same time technology has eroded many of the low skilled jobs done by your typical office worker and has allowed for outsourcing of call centers and the like.

On the upper end of the scale a bigger global market and technology allows a single star performer to apply his skills across a much larger market. 

I personally don't think inequality is in and of itself bad as long as those on the bottom are better off/same (including the bottom outside of the developed world).  I don't think capture of the political system by the rich is that much of a danger for two reasons.  1) the rich are not monolithicaly  right or left.  For every Koch Brother you have a Soros a Buffet or a Hines Kerry so the rich tend to balance themselves out.  2) to the extent that the rich agree, I think they are correct.  The rich for instance are generally more socially liberal.

eccdogg

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2014, 09:12:48 AM »
Oh and by the way if R>G, then shouldn't we (at least partially) privatize social security?  We are forcing  folks to invest in a scheme that essentially pays out a % of GDP in the future.  Wouldn't wealth be spread more broadly if folks instead got to build wealth and earn R?

RootofGood

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2014, 09:55:40 AM »
Inequality seems like a necessary outcome of any system other than perfect real time redistribution of income and wealth.  If anyone ever has less or more than the average, then they must immediately be normalized to avoid inequality.  On a macro level, we can adjust the societal coefficients to rein in the inequality or let it grow a bit, but it's always going to be there.  Capitalism exists (thrives!) in the midst of even the most socialist systems (black markets anyone?). 

As for whether capital is inherently more productive than labor, I'd say place your bets.  Save the fruits of your labor and deploy your capital where you see fit.  Instead of viewing R>G as bad, I'd say it's a small taste of paradise.  It allows anyone who can muster up an adequate supply of capital to not have to rely on labor as much to get by.  I think this is about as close to a utopia of not having to work as we can get. 

Over the history of mankind it has been hard to acquire and keep capital and invest it efficiently, but times have changed.  Today, anyone (in the US at least) can send Vanguard a thousand bucks and own a globally diversified portfolio of investments and pay just a couple bucks in management fees. 


Wildflame

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2014, 11:16:35 AM »
@MDM: I'm sorry, I should have been clear. I always assume revenue neutrality when comparing different tax systems to each other. The method by which revenue is raised is an entirely different issue to the quantity of taxation that is raised - or indeed how it is spent. Conflating these issues is a major problem with political discussion, and I regret having added to it. =( Should a wealth tax or substantial death duty be introduced, to ensure revenue neutrality it is implied that other taxes must be reduced. As to what exact changes? This will depend greatly on the system currently in place in each country, the extent of the proposed new taxes, the predicted sums that would be raised, etc. Were I king for a day, I would focus on reducing (or ideally eliminating) GST and payroll tax, and if any surplus were left over, I would address income tax. GST because it is highly regressive and excessively complicated to implement, and payroll tax because it disincentivises employing staff. Dropping income tax should increase individual incentives to work more productively (longer / harder / smarter). I am aware in Oz that would shake up the balance of revenue between states and federal government (GST / payroll taxes are state-based) but I'm sure we could come to an accord.

@Schaefer Light: you do, as one of the relatively wealthy, have the option to move to a different country which has a more favourable taxation regime to your situation - at least until we get a unified world government. Unfortunately, the best you can do is choose from the options available: it's like going to an ice cream parlour. You can pick whichever flavour (of governance) you want from the selection, but you can't have pizza.

As for that order to avoid being poor, well - yeah. The problem is that there are a lot of people who do not understand that or do not have the preconditions in place to get past barrier #1. If your parents cannot read and tell you that school is a waste of time, are you as likely to graduate high school as someone like myself who has a family full of teachers?

The key to understanding disagreements about the importance of inequality is whether relative inequality is a problem. I believe it is, due to detrimental social effects (and the increased opportunity for political corruption). I suspect political conservatives and strict libertarians view relative inequality as an unhealthy concern about the affairs of others. I don't mean to suggest they necessarily agree on anything else, though. ^_^ Unfortunately, there is very little room to cross the aisle here, as they rest on fundamental differences of values rather than disagreements on implementation.

The best argument I have heard and adopted for welfare and redistribution when discussing with non-lefties is the crime-prevention / civil unrest prevention angle. That at least is something that conservatives in particular can acknowledge and respect, because it correlates with the strong conservative values of orderliness and need for security.

Thegoblinchief

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2014, 11:21:52 AM »
To my mind, a wealth tax would just induce more market volatility, because you're constantly trying to beat the tax man. That's the last thing we need.

Jamesqf

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2014, 12:36:31 PM »
@Jamesqf: the essential argument for 'taxing the rich' is that the 'rich' have already extracted from their workers a surplus - that's where their disproportionate wealth comes from. Were they merely capable of earning more than a typical, less meritorious worker, then that would be fine. The problem is not the fact that some people can earn more than others through their skills. The problem is r > g: it is possible to extract more wealth from an economy by owning a chunk of it than it is by working more productively (which causes g). The rationale for intervening to curb extreme inequality...

I think we are talking past each other here.  The 'problem' that I deduce from the commentary is the bare fact of inequality, period.  (Or in more honest words, very thinly disguised Marxism.)  It IS the fact that the more meritorious* worker (or inventor, investor, entrepreneur, &c) makes more money, sometimes a lot more money, which bothers them. 

WRT the argument itself, I think it's wrong.  I take an analogy from thermodynamics: it's not heat (= wealth) that can do useful work, it's differences in temperature.

MDM

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2014, 12:43:41 PM »
@MDM: I'm sorry, I should have been clear. I always assume revenue neutrality when comparing different tax systems to each other. The method by which revenue is raised is an entirely different issue to the quantity of taxation that is raised - or indeed how it is spent. Conflating these issues is a major problem with political discussion, and I regret having added to it. =( Should a wealth tax or substantial death duty be introduced, to ensure revenue neutrality it is implied that other taxes must be reduced. As to what exact changes? This will depend greatly on the system currently in place in each country, the extent of the proposed new taxes, the predicted sums that would be raised, etc. Were I king for a day, I would focus on reducing (or ideally eliminating) GST and payroll tax, and if any surplus were left over, I would address income tax. GST because it is highly regressive and excessively complicated to implement, and payroll tax because it disincentivises employing staff. Dropping income tax should increase individual incentives to work more productively (longer / harder / smarter). I am aware in Oz that would shake up the balance of revenue between states and federal government (GST / payroll taxes are state-based) but I'm sure we could come to an accord.

Wildflame, thanks for the clarification.  That, IMO, puts you into the relatively small percentage of people who favor a wealth tax for other than "soak the rich" reasons.

An effective government needs "a certain amount" of revenue to function.  How that gets collected is a viable topic for discussion.  Based on most wealth tax proposals I've heard, I would not be subjected to it (i.e., we would be under the minimum) - but do worry about "the camel's nose in the tent" effect.  Another personal concern is getting the worst of both worlds: having paid higher income taxes while earning, just in time to pay wealth tax in retirement (should it come into effect).  The devil is indeed in the details.

Then there's the discussion about how much revenue the government "needs" to collect.  I suspect there are similar numbers on the rightmost population distribution tail who think the answer is "zero", as there are on the leftmost distribution tail who think "from each according to ability, to each according to need" is correct.  Still leaves a lot of room in between those....

GuitarStv

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2014, 06:22:33 AM »
There's a balance.  Inequality is a driver of productivity.  That's why capitalism works.  People see what others have, want it, and are productive to try and achieve it.  It's great motivation.  Inequality unchecked however, becomes blatantly unfair.  This leads to unrest and eventually to attacks on the rich.  The system doesn't work when it's never really possible for the average person to become one of the rich elite . . . the motivation to be productive is reduced when the working class realize that nothing they ever do will allow them to catch up to the elites.

The pendulum swings.  At the moment it seems that it's swinging pretty hard in favour of the rich.  Taxation can be used to push things it in either direction.  At the moment in the US, taxation greatly favours the rich.

Wildflame

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2014, 11:16:54 AM »
@Jamesqf: Oh, I feel you! There's pretty much nothing you can do to reason with a rabid Marxist. Melbourne has a disproportionate number of them - I see flyers all the time for various meetups, protests and conventions. Heck, there's a building a few kms towards the city with the sign out the front: "Melbourne Anarchist Club". Brings to mind Groucho Marx's saying about refusing to join any club that would let him in...

I address the 'problem' of inequality strictly as one of ensuring social order. In that sense, preventing extreme inequality and its associated consequences are desirable, and if inequality tends to become entrenched, I support measures to counteract that entrenchment. But you are quite right that for those for whom the other Marx holds sway, the notion of anyone doing better than them is repellant - an argument I cannot stand, myself. Animal Farm got it right: even among equals, some will end up being more equal than others. That too is a fact of our biology - the strongest, most intelligent, or most charming will dominate in their various fields, and others will gladly follow in order to bask in some of the reflected glory of being associated with the winner.

As for differences in wealth being a driving force, I agree - the opportunity to get rich is a great motivator. I disagree that that is the most important factor of wealth. I consider the most important element of wealth as its role as a multiplier: a good idea with a lot of money behind it (or even just a mediocre one) will almost always end up beating out a good idea without so much money behind it - or perhaps it would be better to say, without 'sufficient' money behind it to get the idea to market. This is the basis for the self-reinforcing nature of wealth: the more you have, the easier it is to get more of it.

You know, now that I think about it, there are plenty of counter-examples. Maybe a better expression would be that wealth is a necessary condition for partaking in certain kinds of wealth-generating activities. A person with zero capital cannot readily buy an education. A person with $10k in the bank cannot readily buy an investment property. A company with $1m in the bank cannot expand as quickly as a company with $10m, etc. More money always means more options. Is that a lesser or greater element of inequality than the presence of the incentive to be productive? Hmm...

@GuitarStv: the irony is, of course, that on an aggregate basis the wealthy still do pay the best part of taxation in the US and Australia (the only countries with which I have more than a passing familiarity). See the graph at the bottom of: Aus Treasury Tax Review or Figure 6 at: Uni of Cali: Who Rules America?. However, because wealth scales up exponentially at the top end, the actual percentage of income paid in tax by the wealthiest is not necessarily much higher per-dollar than it is for the average or even the median wage-earner. Looking at the US figures, the top quintile pays no more than 6.3% more than the middle quntile per dollar, despite the fact that individuals in that category (and especially the top 1%) have far far more disposable income than the plebs. I want to find the Oz figures, but my Google-fu appears to have failed me.

I'd be very interested in seeing a Lorenz curve with lines for total wealth and total taxation respectively in Oz, US, and other OECD countries. My hypothesis is that there is greater inequality in wealth than there is in taxation, suggesting that on a % basis, the very wealthy do not contribute as much as they should. Assuming that info isn't already out there beyond my grasp, any budding economists want a thesis topic?

If I am correct, that makes both of the following statements true:
"The rich pay the most tax";
"The rich don't pay enough tax relative to their wealth".
Excellent fodder for political extremists to scream at each other. =)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 11:28:13 AM by Wildflame »

FireYourJob

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2014, 11:45:25 AM »
I'm one of those pure-capitalist ultra-libertarian types, but I'm also a Christian.  Does the Bible not teach us that we shouldn't be jealous of what others have?  I seem to remember a passage about "thou shall not covet".  Life is much better when you just worry about yourself and your own well-being and don't waste your time worrying about (or being jealous of) what others have.[/i]


Yeah, I believe the bible does say something along those lines.  Doesn't the bible also admonish against murder, adultery, and theft?  And of course those things never occur do they?

I am proud of all my self-starting self-motivated friends who work hard and do all the right things.  But the reality is that there are millions of individuals out there who for various reasons make the wrong decisions or lack the capacity to self-improve.  And as I alluded to earlier, we share the planet with such folks and wish as we may they are not going away.

This is a true s'tatement.  The question on the table is how much should the producers, or those that "work hard", or make "good decisions" be forced to pay for this when there is little to no accountability on what the money being transferred to said millions of individuals is then being spent on?  I would be much more for having the government help people if it was in the form of a voucher that could be exchange for what all would generally agree are the necessities of life as opposed to giving people who have generally made poor financial decisions more money to...wait for it...make more bad financial decisions...except this time, it's on your dime.

the end result is YOU work a little harder and a little longer without even realizing, unless you invest the time in understanding what the government is doing with YOUR money, how you are being impacted by some nameless faceless individual you are now de facto "working for".

The Bible says the poor will always be with us.  This much is true.  Churches used to a major force in helping to support these people in times of need and there was a more general societal shame in accepting a handout (i.e. government subsidization shouldn't be a lifestyle - and yes, some will never be able to get off it, but it can be easily argued that the help the government does provide actually addicts people to said help and puts a lid on their own personal abilities to boot strap their way out - again some are in capable, but a large large amount are capable but dont see the need or aren't incentivized to be self sufficient because "whats the point").

SUggesting america is true capitalism is a big misnomer.  We're now one of the biggest socialistic governments on the planet when you talk about entitlements, funded and unfunded.  This will be the next great big bubble as it's wholly unsupportable, especially as the number of working people significantly reduces (as it already has in the last few years).

Schaefer Light

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2014, 11:58:51 AM »
What he ^ said.  Welfare money should be used to prevent people from starving.  It shouldn't be going to people who have TVs, stereos, cell phones, Xboxes, etc.

I'm on my way to Galt's Gulch.

Jamesqf

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2014, 03:36:45 PM »
The system doesn't work when it's never really possible for the average person to become one of the rich elite . . .

But aren't most of us us here busy proving that this idea is wrong, and that most people can in fact become wealthy?

@Jamesqf: Oh, I feel you! There's pretty much nothing you can do to reason with a rabid Marxist. Melbourne has a disproportionate number of them - I see flyers all the time for various meetups, protests and conventions. Heck, there's a building a few kms towards the city with the sign out the front: "Melbourne Anarchist Club".

I agree about Marxists, but I can't see how Marxism and anarchy have anything at all in common.  It takes a strong, dictatorial government like that of the Soviet Union to impose anything even approching a Marxist society, so it would take very confused thinking indeed to conflate the two.  But then, it does take very confused thinking to be a Marxist in the first place...

surfhb

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2014, 09:26:18 PM »
Its interesting to see the many libertarian/conservative comments on the failings of the  social system without one suggestion on how this issue could be turned around.

BTW....once you start throwing the word Marxist around when talking about the current sociopolitical environment, you're pretty much showing your lack knowledge of the term and history     Its unbecoming of you,  childish and frankly, just plain stupid.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 09:34:17 PM by surfhb »

Schaefer Light

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2014, 08:56:47 AM »
Its interesting to see the many libertarian/conservative comments on the failings of the  social system without one suggestion on how this issue could be turned around.

BTW....once you start throwing the word Marxist around when talking about the current sociopolitical environment, you're pretty much showing your lack knowledge of the term and history     Its unbecoming of you,  childish and frankly, just plain stupid.
The way to turn it around is by getting rid of a lot of the govt handouts and safety nets.  Force people to provide for themselves.  It would also help if people would stop having kids out of wedlock (which is why, Libertarian as I am, I'm becoming more socially conservative).  I believe that a reduction of govt support would encourage better lifestyle choices.

5inatrailer

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2014, 09:19:04 AM »
Hey Mods, can we get a trash or props button on here?

I love the simple minded arrogance of the right wing capitalists.  Trash!

Even Rome had a bread dole to feed the hungry.  You have to support the people somehow, even the ones you feel don't deserve it, because their votes count just as much as yours, and their hands can fire a gun just as effectively*

*see africa circa since the beginning of time until now.

Beridian

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2014, 09:26:46 AM »
Its interesting to see the many libertarian/conservative comments on the failings of the  social system without one suggestion on how this issue could be turned around.

BTW....once you start throwing the word Marxist around when talking about the current sociopolitical environment, you're pretty much showing your lack knowledge of the term and history     Its unbecoming of you,  childish and frankly, just plain stupid.
The way to turn it around is by getting rid of a lot of the govt handouts and safety nets.  Force people to provide for themselves.  It would also help if people would stop having kids out of wedlock (which is why, Libertarian as I am, I'm becoming more socially conservative).  I believe that a reduction of govt support would encourage better lifestyle choices.

The safety nets are primarily there to benefit children, who if neglected will almost certainly grow up to perpetuate the problem.  Forcing people to fend for themselves may be fine for adults (actually not, desperate people do desperate things), but it is a mathematical certainty that you will get more such people if the children are ignored.   The other great outflow of what you call "handouts" are to the old and the infirmed and people who simply are incapable of taking care of themselves.   The very few fully functional adults who are on the dole are not living lives of luxury either, it is bleak way to live.

What really ticks me off about so many social conservatives is that they want to cut poor people off, yet they also campaign against abortion and birth control.  If you really want to put a dent in the numbers of poor underclass people, you need to get them to stop self-perpetuating their population.  Give them free birth control.  Better yet, pay young women a monthly stipend to NOT have babies, or offer any young woman who remains child free a college education.   it would be a bargain in the long run.

We need practical workable ideas to address the poverty problem.  Simply cutting them off will lead us to civil strife and in a few generations we will be very much like Central America or sub Saharan Africa.   Do the math.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 03:17:23 PM by Beridian »

surfhb

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2014, 11:17:17 AM »
Its interesting to see the many libertarian/conservative comments on the failings of the  social system without one suggestion on how this issue could be turned around.

BTW....once you start throwing the word Marxist around when talking about the current sociopolitical environment, you're pretty much showing your lack knowledge of the term and history     Its unbecoming of you,  childish and frankly, just plain stupid.
The way to turn it around is by getting rid of a lot of the govt handouts and safety nets.  Force people to provide for themselves.  It would also help if people would stop having kids out of wedlock (which is why, Libertarian as I am, I'm becoming more socially conservative).  I believe that a reduction of govt support would encourage better lifestyle choices.

Good luck with that !

I also think everyone forgets that the Reason third world nations are just that is because there are no social programs. 

This is exactly what the US would become without them.    Social benefits also benefit me as well.    Maybe I'm just being selfish but I really don't want millions of poor people living on my streets

surfhb

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Re: Capitalism (new book) R>g discuss
« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2014, 11:21:41 AM »
Its interesting to see the many libertarian/conservative comments on the failings of the  social system without one suggestion on how this issue could be turned around.

BTW....once you start throwing the word Marxist around when talking about the current sociopolitical environment, you're pretty much showing your lack knowledge of the term and history     Its unbecoming of you,  childish and frankly, just plain stupid.
The way to turn it around is by getting rid of a lot of the govt handouts and safety nets.  Force people to provide for themselves.  It would also help if people would stop having kids out of wedlock (which is why, Libertarian as I am, I'm becoming more socially conservative).  I believe that a reduction of govt support would encourage better lifestyle choices.

The safety nets are primarily there to benefit children, who if neglected will almost certainly grow up to perpetuate the problem.  Forcing people to fend for themselves may be fine for adults (actually not, desperate people do desperate things), but it is a mathematical certainty that you will get more such people if the children are ignored.   The other great outflow of what you call "handouts" are to the old and the infirmed and people who simply are incapable of taking care of themselves.   The very few fully functional adults who are on the dole are not living lives of luxury either, it is bleak way to live.

What really ticks me off about so many social conservatives is that they want to cut poor people off, yet they also campaign against abortion and birth control.  If you really want to put a dent in the numbers of poor underclass people, you need to get then to stop self-perpetuating their population.  Give them free birth control.  Better yet, pay young women a monthly stipend to NOT have babies, or offer any young woman who remains child free a college education.   it would be a bargain in the long run.

We need practical workable ideas to address the poverty problem.  Simply cutting them off will lead us to civil strife and in a few generations we will be very much like Central America or sub Saharan Africa.   Do the math.

Your comments about available abortions reminds me of the Freakanomics theory on how the passing of Roe vs Wade as led to the drastic cut of the crime rates EXACTLY 18-20 years after it's passing.    Interesting stuff!