Author Topic: Can/Should I obtain loan on a paid off house?  (Read 1524 times)

Edwards

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Can/Should I obtain loan on a paid off house?
« on: August 22, 2020, 03:54:43 PM »
I bought my house outright many years ago (before knowing anything about investing). Over the years, I have seen people mention that it is better to have a mortgage and invest than to have a paid off house.

With that in mind, I have some questions and would appreciate if people could offer advice or point me in the directions of forum posts or articles that discuss my issues. I can easily Google things, but there is a lot of misinformation out there and would prefer to receive refers from like-minded people.

1) Can I / would it be possible for me to draw on my home's equity so that I can invest more in the market?

2) What factors should I consider before attempting this if it is possible?
    For example, how do I determine whether it will be more profitable to do this rather than keep things as they are?

Thanks for your help everyone!



SwordGuy

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Re: Can/Should I obtain loan on a paid off house?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2020, 05:27:45 PM »
1) Can I / would it be possible for me to draw on my home's equity so that I can invest more in the market?

Yes, of course.    You could get a HELOC or a cash-out refinance or buy on a margin call.

2) What factors should I consider before attempting this if it is possible?
    For example, how do I determine whether it will be more profitable to do this rather than keep things as they are?

There are two parts to this kind of planning.

a) What do you want to achieve and how will you try to achieve it?

b) What could go horribly wrong, how could I avoid or minimize it, and can I live with it?

So, part (a):

Historical US stock market return has been about 10% with historical average inflation being about 3%, for a 7% real return.

Those are average returns.  Any given year could be wildly better or worse than that average.

Margin call seems simple.   You buy more stock than the money you have to invest with because the brokerage loans you the money.   I have no idea what the fees or interest rates are for this.     I understand that if the market drops "enough" the brokerage will contact you and expect you to pony up whatever cash amount it takes to restore your credit with them.   I'm not sure what the penalty is if you can't do that but I expect it's not pleasant.     Back in 1929 some folks in that position killed themselves.

It's not worth the hassle to solidly learn how to do this right for "play money" investment levels and no way in hell would I accept that much risk with a big chunk of my portfolio.   Your mileage may vary.

So, let's try a heloc or cash-out refinance.

Let's pretend your cost to borrow that money is 4%.   You're making the difference -- again on average.   

One risk is that *some* HELOCs have a call option, in which the bank can say, "Um, things are tough for us right now so pony up the entire HELOC balance right away or we take your home."    Again, no way would I accept that level of risk.   Other HELOCs don't have that call option.      I'm unaware of any cash-out refinance that has a call option.  Either way, you should ALWAYS ask ahead of time and ALSO READ THE WHOLE DAMN LOAN DOCUMENT just to be sure.   Sometimes the bastards lie or sometimes they're just clueless.

If your interest rate is fixed, then as inflation happens your repayment amount gets relatively cheaper (assuming your income keeps up with inflation).   If the interest rate isn't fixed, then you have to understand how high it could go and what that would do to your payment and your returns.

What could go wrong?    If you lose your job you could have to sell those stocks to continue to make payments.   You might lose your job because the economy just tanked and stocks sell at 1/2 price.  In that case, for as long as you have to do that, you're losing money.   If it's a long recession and it takes you a long time to get another job, you could be losing money for a couple of years or more.

Hope that helps.

Personally, it's not something I would do.   But others have made a fair bit of money doing it.  And others have lost their fortunes and house.

FlytilFIRE

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Re: Can/Should I obtain loan on a paid off house?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2020, 06:04:54 PM »
My question is, how would you invest the money? A huge chunk, or feed into the market, dollar cost averaging? Very personal choice.

On the HELOC issue, I had one (for emergencies or as a bridging loan), and when the economy tanked in 2008, my bank dropped my credit amount from about $190k to $128k, if I remember correctly. Not a factor for me, but keep it in mind. It seems like dropping your credit limit would be more realistic than just calling your loan, especially if you've been good on payments. Your financial institution should be able to tell you how they did it in the past.

I think I'd wait until after the election in November to gauge which way the wind is blowing. Yes, it's market timing (normally a bad idea IMO), but my risk tolerance is low.

SwordGuy

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Re: Can/Should I obtain loan on a paid off house?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2020, 06:15:12 PM »

On the HELOC issue, I had one (for emergencies or as a bridging loan), and when the economy tanked in 2008, my bank dropped my credit amount from about $190k to $128k, if I remember correctly. Not a factor for me, but keep it in mind. It seems like dropping your credit limit would be more realistic than just calling your loan, especially if you've been good on payments. Your financial institution should be able to tell you how they did it in the past.


And reading the ENTIRE CONTRACT will tell you what options are open to them for YOUR contract.    This is NOT the kind of thing that you want to be surprised by.

Edwards

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Re: Can/Should I obtain loan on a paid off house?
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2020, 04:51:46 PM »
Thank you everyone who has replied.
You have gave me a lot to think about.

As was mentioned, I think holding off until at least 2021 would be wise.
Also, I do like having no debt, so should think about whether this would cause me stress.

Regardless, I will definitely look into this more based on the advice everyone provided.

talltexan

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Re: Can/Should I obtain loan on a paid off house?
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2020, 11:19:51 AM »
How are your existing investments allocated? Would like an idea of your age and risk tolerance.

Edwards

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Re: Can/Should I obtain loan on a paid off house?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2020, 04:27:33 PM »
I'm 36 (planning to downshift into part-time work only by 40 at the latest).
Have no debt of any kind right now.
Currently, all my money (except for an emergency fund) is allocated into various Vanguard mutual funds, AAPL, and DIS.


johndoe

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Re: Can/Should I obtain loan on a paid off house?
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2020, 07:07:48 PM »
I'm guessing the gurus here may tweak their advice depending on the value of your home compared to your investments.  For instance my equity represents about 45% of my net worth while investments are around 50%.  I suspect if you share your value the folks may have some guidance.  Most don't suggest so much value in home equity, so perhaps you could pursue the loan. Me personally I'll pass.  I'm sure there are threads about appropriate values.

Edwards

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Re: Can/Should I obtain loan on a paid off house?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2020, 07:34:31 AM »
My home was a foreclosure that I bought during the housing crash.
As of now, it may have appreciated to approximately $80,000 at the most (small house in a medium-sized midwest city).

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!