Author Topic: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?  (Read 3339 times)

MrThatsDifferent

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Ok, so I’ve been thinking lately about the idea of creating a perpetual scholarship at my alma mater. If I use $25k and invest that in index funds, so that it gives $1000/year, would this last forever? I know this may be a stupid question and it doesn’t seem right but isn’t it the basic premise of the 4% rule?

Also, if $25k invested wouldn’t do the trick, what amount invested would?

Has anyone done anything like this?

secondcor521

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2019, 01:49:09 AM »
Not quite, but close.

The 4% rule as initially reported in the Trinity University study didn't quite draw down the original amount over 30 years in the worst historical case.  So their conclusion, in effect, was that you could endow a $1K scholarship with $25K and it would always last 30 years, but in the historical worst case not for 31 years.  But if you picked a fortuitous starting year, it could last for longer than 30 years; in some cases much longer.

As a practical matter, the small endowed scholarships that I am familiar with would invest the $25K amount more conservatively (maybe 60/40?  not sure).  They then use whatever earnings happen to be that year as the scholarship amount.  So maybe one year the scholarship is $850 and the next year it's $1150.

The rule at the endowment I know about says that if you want to establish your own named scholarship, you have to come up with a minimum - I think it's either $10K or $20K.  Amounts below that go into the general scholarship fund.  This endowment is for a high school; if you wanted to endow a scholarship at a university the minimums might be higher.  The reason for the minimums is that there is overhead in managing the scholarship - they have to keep track of the applicants separately, the scholarship criteria can be different according to your wishes, and they have to do the basic financial accounting to keep track of the scholarship corpus, earnings, distributions, etc.  It's impractical for them to do it for what they would consider "small" amounts.  But that would depend on the school.

I haven't done it, but my parents did.  I believe they made additional contributions over the years to get the corpus larger, and I know that some years when they couldn't pick a single scholarship winner, they would write a check to effectively double the earnings and award the scholarship to two recipients.

marty998

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2019, 03:05:54 AM »
I like this... I've thought about setting up one for my old high school down the track.

The only thing that would stop me is that I don't want it to be an ego thing named after me... be nice if it was somewhat anonymous

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2019, 03:07:06 AM »
Thank you @secondcor521, that’s really helpful!

DaKini

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2019, 03:15:07 AM »
somewhat anonymous
The Gybrush Treepwood sholarship.
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terran

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2019, 05:24:46 AM »
5% of the current balance is actually more typical of endowments. By definition this can never be depleted, but it is highly subject to variation, unlike the 4% rule which only adjusts for inflation after the initial withdrawal.

Rosy

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2019, 06:56:31 AM »
My great-uncle set up a scholarship for the local school with the requirement that each year on his birthday the kids would have to sing a certain song (he was a Hussar (military) and there was a popular song about a Hussar soldier and his love:) and they would each receive a sweet roll.
When the school was closed and integrated with another, the remaining endowment went to the local Kindergarten.

Definition - a member of a European light cavalry unit; renowned for elegant dress

Amazing how much good one can do with $25K.

Much Fishing to Do

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2019, 07:16:54 AM »
5% of the current balance is actually more typical of endowments. By definition this can never be depleted, but it is highly subject to variation, unlike the 4% rule which only adjusts for inflation after the initial withdrawal.

+1 

5% has always been the norm for endowments.  It works because it does go up and down (5% of the balance) and so you dont get killed by your withdraws when its down, and given your real returns are 'usually' 5%in the market it will generally increase over time to keep up with inflation. 

For a scholarship like this its not like you would be expected to adjust for inflation every year.  When you give $1k one year, and you take on the responsibility for making this an ongoing thing, no ones gonna expect it to increase to $1030 next year, etc.  If the underlying balance does well over time you could eventually then increase it when it makes sense incrementally.

Consider whether the important thing is that it lasts forever or that you have control over distributing the funds during your lifetime.  A 6% SWR, inflating distributions annually, is successful over 30 years 'most' of the time.  Of course 51% is not a success rate most feel comfortable with for their retirement, so we generally don't consider rates that high,  but for a charitable fund where no one is dependent upon the money before they receive maybe that is a good target, as it more effectively uses the money instead of over-saving it on average (which we all admittedly do with our retirement savings).  And again, for this scholarship you can always just not inflate until its ideal.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 07:19:13 AM by Much Fishing to Do »

CheapScholar

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2019, 07:43:10 AM »
I’ve worked at two different universities in fundraising and at one school managed the endowed scholarship portfolio.

Every school has its own minimum to start a named endowed scholarship.  A lot of schools are at $25,000 right now.  The school I currently work at is at $100,000.  So, you’d need to call your alma mater and ask their minimum.  You might also want to ask how long they will give you to make good on your pledge.  Most schools are somewhere between five and seven years.  And most will not start awarding the scholarship until you’ve paid all of the pledge (interest on dollars in your earlier years does not count towards the pledge usually).  The fundraiser you talk to will probably ask you to make an annual scholarship until the endowed crosses the threshold to be put on spend.

As far as the spend rate on your account, you don’t get to pick where the money is invested.  Most schools park their endowment with large investment company like Northern Trust.  The school I’m currently at is an elite mega wealthy school that manages its own endowment.  You should expect the spend rate on your scholarship to be between 3.5 - 4.5% each year.  This rate is usually set by the Trustees.

The scholarships live in perpetuity.  You can set some preferences for who gets the scholarship.  Things like major of study, hometown, etc.  But most schools are seriously reducing the restrictions you can set because it costs more to administer the scholarship if they have to find the exact profile of a certain student.

It’s a good investment.  Your scholarship will last as long as the institution and provide for a new student every year.  You will possibly be invited to an annual scholarship lunch to meet your student each year - smaller schools do this very well actually, and typically receive a thank you note in the mail from your student.

A $25,000 endowed fund will spin off about $1,000 each year.  Don’t think this amount is trivial.  It can actually make a huge difference for some of these young people - plus when they hear they won a scholarship it really motivates them to do well. 
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 07:45:44 AM by CheapScholar »

afox

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2019, 09:34:24 AM »
somewhat related: I wish there were daycare scholarships. Where I live daycare costs just as much college tuition (about 21k year for tuition) and parents are at an earlier point in their careers when kids go to daycare making it even harder to afford.


ysette9

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2019, 11:38:35 AM »
somewhat related: I wish there were daycare scholarships. Where I live daycare costs just as much college tuition (about 21k year for tuition) and parents are at an earlier point in their careers when kids go to daycare making it even harder to afford.
This!!

SwordGuy

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2019, 07:56:28 PM »
We're looking to set up a scholarship but using rental real estate instead.
Hopefully we'll find a suitable property at the right price in the next two years.

Our intent is to purchase a property in need of a bit of renovation in a college town.   The town we have in mind only allows 3 unrelated people per residence so a house that could be split into a duplex would be best.   That would allow for up to 6 students to be helped.

The students would be charged market rent and the necessary funds to cover taxes (hopefully none as it would be a non-profit), insurance, property management, a sinking fund for run-of-the-mill repairs and also for any repairs caused by negligence.   The intent is to make college more affordable for art students so they would also have to donate one item of artwork for the house per year plus photographs and a write-up about all the art pieces that they made that year.   That way, the house would get more character over the years and, with a bit of luck, one of those pieces of work might fund starting another house one day, plus we've got some really useful documentation for the provenance.

At the end of the school year the students would divide the "profits" between them.   We would endow the house with a good start on the sinking fund just in case.  This would give them a 1/3rd to 1/2 cost reduction in their lodging costs. 

We'll probably rent it as a for-profit property for the first few years.  That way we might be able to recover part of the start-up investment which would make it easier to set up a 2nd house shortly afterwards.   If the stock market produces average returns we should be able to endow it with enough to cover most of the annual operating costs which would make it an even better deal for the students and greatly reduce the amount of up-front rent they would need to provide. 

We could do the cash scholarships instead but there are real professional advantages to building the kind of bonds that college roommates can create between themselves.  If the plan works we would be providing more $ value than the same cash outlay on our part could provide via a 5% distribution.


I suppose we'll figure that out over the course of the next few years.



A Fella from Stella

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2019, 08:09:42 PM »
I love this idea. I've been telling my girls that if they don't use up their 529, or perhaps even add to it to keep it alive, then maybe their kids and grand kids, or some other child they love, can use that money, and it can outlive us all.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2019, 03:20:38 AM »
I’ve worked at two different universities in fundraising and at one school managed the endowed scholarship portfolio.

Every school has its own minimum to start a named endowed scholarship.  A lot of schools are at $25,000 right now.  The school I currently work at is at $100,000.  So, you’d need to call your alma mater and ask their minimum.  You might also want to ask how long they will give you to make good on your pledge.  Most schools are somewhere between five and seven years.  And most will not start awarding the scholarship until you’ve paid all of the pledge (interest on dollars in your earlier years does not count towards the pledge usually).  The fundraiser you talk to will probably ask you to make an annual scholarship until the endowed crosses the threshold to be put on spend.

As far as the spend rate on your account, you don’t get to pick where the money is invested.  Most schools park their endowment with large investment company like Northern Trust.  The school I’m currently at is an elite mega wealthy school that manages its own endowment.  You should expect the spend rate on your scholarship to be between 3.5 - 4.5% each year.  This rate is usually set by the Trustees.

The scholarships live in perpetuity.  You can set some preferences for who gets the scholarship.  Things like major of study, hometown, etc.  But most schools are seriously reducing the restrictions you can set because it costs more to administer the scholarship if they have to find the exact profile of a certain student.

It’s a good investment.  Your scholarship will last as long as the institution and provide for a new student every year.  You will possibly be invited to an annual scholarship lunch to meet your student each year - smaller schools do this very well actually, and typically receive a thank you note in the mail from your student.

A $25,000 endowed fund will spin off about $1,000 each year.  Don’t think this amount is trivial.  It can actually make a huge difference for some of these young people - plus when they hear they won a scholarship it really motivates them to do well.

Perfect! Thank you! This is actually quite exciting.

marty998

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2019, 03:45:50 AM »
somewhat related: I wish there were daycare scholarships. Where I live daycare costs just as much college tuition (about 21k year for tuition) and parents are at an earlier point in their careers when kids go to daycare making it even harder to afford.
This!!

This would have to be needs based rather than merit based surely! Can't be pushing standardised tests on 2 year olds :)

Proud Foot

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2019, 08:10:31 AM »
Ok, so I’ve been thinking lately about the idea of creating a perpetual scholarship at my alma mater. If I use $25k and invest that in index funds, so that it gives $1000/year, would this last forever? I know this may be a stupid question and it doesn’t seem right but isn’t it the basic premise of the 4% rule?

Also, if $25k invested wouldn’t do the trick, what amount invested would?

Has anyone done anything like this?

I think this would work but like others have said there will be many decisions you need to make before determining your amount.

"Ownership" - Will you set it up with your alma mater's foundation where they will manage the whole process? (investments, applicants, selection, distributions) of will you set it where an outside company manages the investments? Because of the requirement to protect the corpus of an endowment a lot of these large endowments/foundations use a more conservative approach for their investments. My previous job was at a foundation and our investment strategy was targeted towards consistent returns in the 4-7% range. We had less upside than investing entirely in equities but also had less downside. This strategy was implemented as a result of the 2008 financial crisis so it has not actually been tested in a major down market yet.

Recipient eligibility - The less restrictive you set up the requirements for the recipient the more benefit it will provide. We had several scholarship funds we went through the legal process of changing because they had not been used in over 25 years as no students met the requirements to be a recipient.

Scholarship amount - Think of the impact you want your scholarship to have. You could either have a larger impact for one person or a smaller impact for several.

I like the idea of trying to do this while you are alive and be able to see the impact of your gift. When I was in college I remember writing thank you notes to all of the named scholarships I received and was able to meet a few of the donors.

slappy

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2019, 09:04:42 AM »
somewhat related: I wish there were daycare scholarships. Where I live daycare costs just as much college tuition (about 21k year for tuition) and parents are at an earlier point in their careers when kids go to daycare making it even harder to afford.

Not really the same thing but I've been considering setting up a scholarship fund at my son's preschool. Of course its only 1500-2000 per year, depending on how many days you go. The thing that's stopping me is that we are not in a low income community or a place where there is really a "need".  (Of course I don't know all the parents finances, so maybe it is a stretch for some.)

If the meantime, I've donated several hundred and asked them to use it as a scholarship fund for when families are struggling to make a tuition payment one month.

terran

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2019, 03:50:24 PM »
A $25,000 endowed fund will spin off about $1,000 each year.  Don’t think this amount is trivial.  It can actually make a huge difference for some of these young people - plus when they hear they won a scholarship it really motivates them to do well.

+1

From an undisclosed source: as little as a few hundred dollars can be the difference between a first year student going on to their second year as first year scholarships start drying up.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2019, 04:09:48 PM »
My initial thought was to have it for a specific group of people in need. My current thinking is I would focus it on a unique residential place at my alma mater and the major condition would be that it has to be used as part of a study abroad program.

What I really wanted to understand is how much money is needed to create a perpetual amount of $1000? Oddly, I didn’t even think about inflation and $1000 50 years from now may seem like nothing. I’d love to give back where my life was changed and hope I can help change someone else’s life by helping them have new experiences.

SwordGuy

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2019, 05:29:29 PM »
My initial thought was to have it for a specific group of people in need. My current thinking is I would focus it on a unique residential place at my alma mater and the major condition would be that it has to be used as part of a study abroad program.

What I really wanted to understand is how much money is needed to create a perpetual amount of $1000? Oddly, I didn’t even think about inflation and $1000 50 years from now may seem like nothing. I’d love to give back where my life was changed and hope I can help change someone else’s life by helping them have new experiences.
Historical average return for the US market has been about 10%.  That's a bit over 3% of inflation and about 7% return.
So if you're taking out 5% you should be able to grow that award to keep up with inflation.

CheapScholar

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2019, 07:58:41 PM »
No college is going to let you endow a study abroad program on $25,000 (or require the recipient use the award for study abroad).  I work in this field for a living.  You can endow a partial scholarship or maybe a lecture series.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2019, 08:02:44 PM »
My initial thought was to have it for a specific group of people in need. My current thinking is I would focus it on a unique residential place at my alma mater and the major condition would be that it has to be used as part of a study abroad program.

What I really wanted to understand is how much money is needed to create a perpetual amount of $1000? Oddly, I didn’t even think about inflation and $1000 50 years from now may seem like nothing. I’d love to give back where my life was changed and hope I can help change someone else’s life by helping them have new experiences.
Historical average return for the US market has been about 10%.  That's a bit over 3% of inflation and about 7% return.
So if you're taking out 5% you should be able to grow that award to keep up with inflation.

Ok, so instead of stipulating $1000/yr, if I make the condition 5% of the principle each year, that’s better?

SwordGuy

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2019, 08:39:18 PM »
Ok, so instead of stipulating $1000/yr, if I make the condition 5% of the principle each year, that’s better?


Well, it won't ever run out of money if you do it that way.  The amount may go up or down from year to year depending upon the market valuation.

If you are serious about this, contact the school you want to set it up for.  If it's a college or a private school they probably have people who specialize in helping donors do all of this.   :)

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2019, 11:43:48 PM »
Ok, so instead of stipulating $1000/yr, if I make the condition 5% of the principle each year, that’s better?


Well, it won't ever run out of money if you do it that way.  The amount may go up or down from year to year depending upon the market valuation.

If you are serious about this, contact the school you want to set it up for.  If it's a college or a private school they probably have people who specialize in helping donors do all of this.   :)

Thank you.

lukebuz

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2019, 10:54:02 AM »
somewhat related: I wish there were daycare scholarships. Where I live daycare costs just as much college tuition (about 21k year for tuition) and parents are at an earlier point in their careers when kids go to daycare making it even harder to afford.
This!!

ummmm?  Headstart?  Wife works at a headstart, and it's FREE for most enrollees.  No, just because your rich and stingy, it doesn't entitle you to a scholarship...

RedmondStash

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2019, 11:35:44 AM »
Nice thread. Getting me thinking about doing this someday myself.

Thanks for starting this conversation, OP.

ysette9

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2019, 01:23:29 PM »
somewhat related: I wish there were daycare scholarships. Where I live daycare costs just as much college tuition (about 21k year for tuition) and parents are at an earlier point in their careers when kids go to daycare making it even harder to afford.
This!!

ummmm?  Headstart?  Wife works at a headstart, and it's FREE for most enrollees.  No, just because your rich and stingy, it doesn't entitle you to a scholarship...
In my area the income requirements for Headstart are incredibly strict.
As in you can’t have a household income for a family of four that would even be enough to pay rent on a one bedroom apartment.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2019, 01:40:05 PM »
Nice thread. Getting me thinking about doing this someday myself.

Thanks for starting this conversation, OP.

Cheers. It actually dawned on me, that for a relatively small amount of money, you could have a lasting impact in someone’s life. I had also read about a woman who puts aside $500/year to create a scholarship in her name and I thought, that’s beautiful and simple. Learning these things from MMM has changed my thinking in so many ways.

SwordGuy

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2019, 03:47:33 PM »
Nice thread. Getting me thinking about doing this someday myself.

Thanks for starting this conversation, OP.

Cheers. It actually dawned on me, that for a relatively small amount of money, you could have a lasting impact in someone’s life. I had also read about a woman who puts aside $500/year to create a scholarship in her name and I thought, that’s beautiful and simple. Learning these things from MMM has changed my thinking in so many ways.

We can't ask the poor to fund these because they simply can't.

A few of the ultra rich would do it, but most won't.

If not us, then who else will do it?

SquashingDebt

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2019, 08:52:08 PM »
I'm involved with a graduate student-led annual symposium that has to do a lot of work fundraising every year to pay for the event.  One of my FIRE daydreams (or maybe an actual plan, depending on whether, for example, I ever have kids that I would need to spend money on) involves donating enough money to make an endowment that pays for some or all of the event every year.  It would probably have to be a million to really safely cover it each year, hence only being a daydream for now.

SwordGuy

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2019, 08:58:50 PM »
I'm involved with a graduate student-led annual symposium that has to do a lot of work fundraising every year to pay for the event.  One of my FIRE daydreams (or maybe an actual plan, depending on whether, for example, I ever have kids that I would need to spend money on) involves donating enough money to make an endowment that pays for some or all of the event every year.  It would probably have to be a million to really safely cover it each year, hence only being a daydream for now.

If it has something to do with metal and is in NC, we should talk.

SquashingDebt

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Re: Can you create a perpetual scholarship with the 4% rule and $25k?
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2019, 05:26:20 AM »
I'm involved with a graduate student-led annual symposium that has to do a lot of work fundraising every year to pay for the event.  One of my FIRE daydreams (or maybe an actual plan, depending on whether, for example, I ever have kids that I would need to spend money on) involves donating enough money to make an endowment that pays for some or all of the event every year.  It would probably have to be a million to really safely cover it each year, hence only being a daydream for now.

If it has something to do with metal and is in NC, we should talk.

Nope!  Not metal, and this one rotates around the country and is hosted at different universities, etc.  It's also pretty new, so a big question is if it'll still exist if/when I have a big chunk of money to give away.