Author Topic: Can I get some Canadian advice about my confusing investment situation?  (Read 5419 times)

hornbyisland

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Hello all, first post, please let me know of any etiquette I missed in the Read Me First thread!

I've been saving since my dad opened my first savings account for me (age 8). Aside from a couple motorcycles and vacations, I've been diligent about putting money in and not taking it out. So now I am 25 and have 29,000 saved. However, I don't know what to do with it. I would prefer to have it in an investment account where I know it's getting the best possible return, shove some money in there every month, and forget it. But I'm not quite there yet. Here's the breakdown.

Checking account: ~$100, topped up with $125 each week for day to day expenses.

Scotia Power Savings: ~$7500 right now, flush with a recent tax return and a healthcare reimbursement check that I'm expecting any day now. Supposedly this is Scotia's best savings account, provided you keep the balance over $5000. I've tried to do that for several years, but the interest rate is less than a percent and that seems kind of lame.

Scotia Money Master - This account had a decent interest rate when I got it several years ago, now it's even worse than the power savings. I only keep money in there when my Power Savings account drops below $5000. It rounds up to the next dollar every time you use your debit card on your checking account, and skims that money into the Money Master. I use whatever's in there to pay off my credit card, usually. It's not that useful, mostly just an extra complication.

Scotia Value Visa - not much to say. $7200 limit, low interest, no annual fee, I pay in full each month.

Scotia Line of Credit - $10,000 limit. I don't use this at the moment, no need for it. I just have it handy cause why not.

Investments

Ok, this is the annoying part for me. Age 15, I read Rich Dad Poor Dad and get the idea to start investing. My mom, not knowing anything about investing, takes me to Investors Group for advice. I give them $500 bucks and start earning interest in a very conservative, high MER mutual fund (at the time I didn't understand what MER meant). Age 18, right before the 2008 crash, I take out $2000 and buy a motorcycle. That leaves $1000, which melts into $800. I don't touch it for a few lean, student years til I start working for a company that has RRSP matching. Obviously I take full advantage of that, and start working with a new advisor, still at Investors Group.

After a couple years working there and a couple more lean student years, I get a decent paying job and an inheritance from my grandfather. Suddenly I have about 18,000. I tell my guy at IG that at 24, I really need to be investing in the most aggressive growth funds. This seems safe enough as I have a big contingency fund, a very supportive family living close by, and I don't tend to have financial emergencies at all.

IG just will not let me invest in a plain index fund. All they have are packages with lots of bonds and money market stuff mixed in for "safety". "Safety" to me sounds like a waste of money. Especially since 2013 and 2014 turned out to be excellent years for the Canadian stock market.

At this point, I talked myself into buying their most aggressive fund, which locks your money in for 7 years with hefty fees for early withdrawal. Shortly after that I did more research and got pissed off about a) the high MER (2.4%!) and b) the lock in period, which may prevent me from taking advantage of a real estate bubble that's going to pop in my area in the next couple years.

So here are my investment accounts as they stand.

Allegro Moderate Portfolio B - no withdrawal fee.
RSP - $2900

Alto Moderate Aggressive Portfolio A - locked in til 2022.
TFSA - $16,300

Allegro Aggressive Portfolio A - locked in.
RSP - $5100

So right now I'm putting away $600 a month and I want to invest the excess in my savings account but I don't want to give any more to IG, ever. I opened up an account at TD Waterhouse, meaning to put whatever I can into the eSeries index fund that I've heard about. Haven't done that yet due to technical difficulties, but that should be sorted out soon. But it's yet another account on top of all the accounts I already have open. It's confusing, and I feel like I must be generating waste. There's no real strategy, just a whole bunch of stuff and I must be getting something wrong.

My goal is to retire in ten years with $400,000 - impossible at the current savings rate, but I'd like to frame my strategy in terms of that. I just don't really know what to do. The various people I've talked to (TD bank advisor, IG advisor, my dad who doesn't know much, my investment banker uncle who probably knows something but won't tell me anything useful) just aren't helping at all. They say stuff like, "As long as you're getting ahead at all you're doing better than 90% of your peers!" Ok fine, I already know that. But I'm trying to get to the next level here.

What can I do?

PharmaStache

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1. Stop any automatic contributions to IG.  Ask them what the fees will be to move your investments.  I recently did this- in my example, I had around 40k and the fees were around 1-2k.  I decided to make a clean break and not worry about hanging onto things until they'd been there 7 years, etc.  I'm very happy with paying the money to be free.  You hardly have any money in there- I can't imagine your fees would even be $500, so just move them.
2. Read "Count on Yourself" (Canadian guide- very simple intro to index investing)
3. Read "Millionaire Teacher"
4. Figure out where you want to invest now- consult the model portfolios on the Canadian Couch Potato website.  Your options are Tangerine, e-series or ETFs
5. Set up the account in step 4
6. Fill out the transfer forms from your account of choice in step 4 and send them to IG to transfer your money (make sure you're using the right forms and just not withdrawing it!).  If you are going with TD they will fill them out for you and update you on the transfer.
7. Be filled with happiness!

RetiredAt63

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I see you have a TFSA with a locked in investment, and an RSP.  So looking at the big picture . . . . .

Do you have RRSP room? Do you have an RRSP at all? If not, why not?
TFSA - There are advantages and disadvantages for TFSAs versus RRSP, but if you are going to have investments outside an RRSP, I would put them into a TFSA, up to the limit.  You are investing after-tax dollars, so why end up with taxable returns?  Also read Gordon Pape's book on TFSAs (and I wish I had $1 for every time I recommend that book).

And no more locked in unless you have to (i.e. taking pension credits as a LIRA).

For specifics you might want to head over to Investor Alley here on the Forum.

Good luck, and it is better to think about this now than at 35 (45, 55....)

okits

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I'm not seeing the point of your Scotia accounts.  In this low interest environment a savings account is a waste. Invest that cash.  I have a big-five bank account that gives me ten free transactions a month for a min. $1000 balance (otherwise they charge $4 in service fees.) The Money Master account basically tricks you into saving by rounding purchases up to the next dollar and saving the difference, right?  That only seems useful if you're the type that will spend every last cent of money or credit that isn't hidden or inaccessible.

Your TD and IG reps are primarily interested in making money by selling you stuff. Your family seems to lack the kind of personal finance expertise you seek.  You need to educate yourself.  PharmaStache has made some great suggestions on places to start.

I assume your IG funds are "locked in" meaning you have to pay a penalty to get out. When you've ready, run the numbers to decide if you're willing to take the hit now or if you want to withdraw the funds as the penalty periods expire or if there are exemption amounts per year.  As you know, 2.5% MER is high.

hornbyisland

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Thank you for the advice so far. Further questions - I don't know why I don't have an RRSP. My understanding of RRSPs was that you can save up to 18% of your income pre-tax, which often leads to a big tax return each year, and then when you withdraw, you are taxed as if it is income. So that will be a low income tax rate when I'm retired. But I only recently realized there's a distinction between RSPs and RRSPs - what is it? I don't think I get it.

I will get rid of the Money Master account for sure. I don't like to use a credit card for day to day transactions because there seems to be a 5 day delay til the transaction shows up on my e-statment, whereas debit transactions show up right away. So I want to keep the checking account. I guess I could stand to keep less cash on hand. Probably 3000 is enough.

Checking out Canadian Couch Potato now. Thanks for the book list, I will definitely read those.

hornbyisland

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Reply to Mr Captain Cash's PM, cause I'm struggling with the captcha :P

Hello Hornbyisland,

I'm the exact same age as yourself and here is my investment strategy which includes index funds from Ishares and Vanguard,

... [ redacted ] ...


For a great read check out http://www.moneysense.ca/uncategorized/moneysense-guide-to-the-perfect-portfolio-2/ this is what my portfolio is based off of.

If you have any additional questions send me a message and I can share more details.


Thanks for the detail, it's a little more technical than I can understand at the moment, but I will be sure to check out that book. Thank you!

One question - I thought it would be as simple as investing in the TD e-Series fund. But apparently within that fund, you still have to research which mutual funds you want to buy, and buy them, right? Is that book (for instance) a good source of info on how to decide which funds are good bets?

KMMK

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Reply to Mr Captain Cash's PM, cause I'm struggling with the captcha :P

Hello Hornbyisland,

I'm the exact same age as yourself and here is my investment strategy which includes index funds from Ishares and Vanguard,

... [ redacted ] ...


For a great read check out http://www.moneysense.ca/uncategorized/moneysense-guide-to-the-perfect-portfolio-2/ this is what my portfolio is based off of.

If you have any additional questions send me a message and I can share more details.


Thanks for the detail, it's a little more technical than I can understand at the moment, but I will be sure to check out that book. Thank you!

One question - I thought it would be as simple as investing in the TD e-Series fund. But apparently within that fund, you still have to research which mutual funds you want to buy, and buy them, right? Is that book (for instance) a good source of info on how to decide which funds are good bets?

With e-series I just follow close to the model portfolios from Couch Potato. He tells you which e-series funds to buy.
It's basically a bond fund, Canadian index, US index and international index. I find TD and e-series really easy, once it's set up.

fb132

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By the way, I would like to encourage you by saying that 29 000$ saved up is still good, I just want to remind you, when I started saving in 2012 (I was 29 years old) and I had only 14K$ saved up, so your ahead of me by a long shot. It is awesome that you have now realized that you want to save and invest more, many people of your age are far from that frame of mind, so don't be discouraged.

I suggest banking with Tangerine for starters, you can withdraw money without worrying about paying fee's and you can use Scotiabank ATM's to withdraw your funds.

As for investing, the canadian couch potato website is awesome and you learn alot, I know I did.

There is also a thread I had opened up which also gives good suggestions http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/financial-newbie-(canadian-edition)/ from different users on this website, I also learned alot, this is why I love this community.

OldPro

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Nothing has been said about alternative ways of investing.  Most people here are pretty fixated on stocks and bonds.  I'm not one of them.  There are many alternative ways to invest your money and you may find some that suit you better personally and also generate a higher ROI for you which is what matters most as far as I am concerned.

The point is, don't get tunnel vision as I think a lot of posters here have as far as what you can invest in.
https://www.google.ca/#q=investing+outside+the+stock+market

I escaped the rat race thanks to commercial real estate and currently I like peer-to-peer lending.  Both have outperformed any stock market index.  But that does not mean either is the right thing for you to invest in today.  There is no alternative or short cut for doing your research to see what is the best move for you.  Nothing is as constant as change and you cannot just park your money in something and forget it.  You have to invest your time as well as your money if you want to achieve your goal as soon as possible and then STAY in a position of financial independence.




RetiredAt63

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But I only recently realized there's a distinction between RSPs and RRSPs - what is it? I don't think I get it.

RSP = pension at work

RRSP = pension you manage

RRSP allowed amounts depend on how much you make and how much you and your employer contribute to your RSP - your federal notice of assessment (bottom of page 2) will show you how much you can contribute.

General (editorial) comment - so many people complain about those of us with work pensions, but forget (ignore?) that we have contributed to them, and we lose RRSP room because of them.  If people contribute the maximum to their RRSP if they have small or non-existent work pensions, they will be in much better shape.  I rarely had over $3000 contribution room, because of work pension contributions.

smilla

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OP, when you are ready, after you have done some of the reading and begun to implement your investment plan (the CCP TD e-series is a good choice), you may want to check out this article:
http://canadiancouchpotato.com/2013/11/27/pulling-off-the-bandage-quickly/

You will still need to do the math for your specific IG funds but once you have things up and running it may be just as well to have TD Waterhouse transfer your IG stuff over and hell with the fees.

By the way, what kind of account did you open at TD Waterhouse? TFSA, RRSP or taxable?

hornbyisland

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OP, when you are ready, after you have done some of the reading and begun to implement your investment plan (the CCP TD e-series is a good choice), you may want to check out this article:
http://canadiancouchpotato.com/2013/11/27/pulling-off-the-bandage-quickly/

You will still need to do the math for your specific IG funds but once you have things up and running it may be just as well to have TD Waterhouse transfer your IG stuff over and hell with the fees.

By the way, what kind of account did you open at TD Waterhouse? TFSA, RRSP or taxable?

I opened a TFSA and an RSP. I guess it should be an RRSP instead.

Life has gotten busy since I did that and I now have ~$5000, everything I could get free from IG without paying fees, in the TD account. But I haven't bought any funds yet - still struggling with the web interface and feeling like a bit of a moron. I'll be reading Canadian Couch Potato this week.

Troppo presto

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If you want to keep money in a savings account I suggest you check out MAXA Financial in Manitoba. You can do it online quite easy to set up and you can call them. Their Regular savings account currently pays 1.85%. I live in B.C. and use two Manitoba Credit Unions.

ldk

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I agree with the idea of ripping the band-aid off quickly with IG.  You're young….take the hit and chalk it up to an expensive (but valuable) lesson in making sure you understand what you're investing in and what the fees associated with it are.  Do your homework and start fresh. 

If it makes you feel a little better, our first 'investment' was also a mutual fund through Investors Group at the age of about 21. (It was our wedding money.)  We got out a few years later and are grateful we made the mistakes/learned the lessons in our twenties!  I'm 44 now and I guarantee most of my friends still don't have a hot clue what a MER is.

smilla

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Hi hornby,

Don't feel rushed.  The money/investments at IG can wait a little while until you are comfortable with TD Waterhouse and you have an investment plan.  Canadian Couch Potato is a great resource.  You'll want to especially check out the model portfolios section (portfolio 2 is the TD e-series). 

Once you have actually started investing at TD, you can read the article I linked upthread and, if the math makes sense, start the process of transferring your investments from IG to your TD accounts (i.e. fill out the paperwork and let TD do it for you). 

By the way, a quick google suggests that an RSP is the same thing as an RRSP so I don't think you need to worry about that. 


 

rae

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hornbyisland,

Thank you for asking this question. I am in a similar situation (although I'm a little older) and have been wanting to get out of IG and into TD Direct Investing for a few months now, especially after doing the math of how my investments have been performing.

Thank you to everyone who offered advice on this thread. It got me to be proactive and do what I knew should be done, as well as cleared up a few things. I should have everything set up by the end of next week!

sleepyguy

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Please stop with IG, those guys are crooks.

Let that money sit there and just open another account with TD or Tangerine or something easy and self managed.

Pick up some low MER index mutual funds and an asset allocation that suits your risk.

Done, once those IG funds mature take that crap out and transfer it over to your TD or Tangerine account.

Tell your mom she sucks at investment advice ;)

Also once your assets group more than $50k, move it over to ETFs to same more MERs, but it will be more self driven and not autobalanced.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 07:55:23 AM by sleepyguy »