Author Topic: Calling out INTJ's, ENxP's (and other known personalities)  (Read 6571 times)

PeachFuzzStacher

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Calling out INTJ's, ENxP's (and other known personalities)
« on: October 25, 2013, 07:52:47 AM »
Hey everyone,
It seems as though these ER type of sites are really popular, and the strong Ni (INTJ, ENTJ, INFJ, ENFJ, and some sp's) types seem to be really good at staying the course due to their stong perception of the good future to come.

Anyone have any advice for strong Ne types?  I'm an ENTP with an ENFP wife, got started with saving and ER about 2 months ago, and are starting to get bored and restless already.  Is saving and staying the course the best method for these types, or is there a good way to incorporate some distracting money-making chaos in the mix?  Some ESxJ's may feel the same way as well.

It's not that I don't have discipline, it's that my goals tend to change constantly.

hoppy08520

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Re: Calling out INTJ's, ENxP's (and other known personalities)
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2013, 06:50:05 AM »
Fellow ENTP here. Like you I do get restless and tend to move from one visionary idea to the next ;-)

But after 1.5 years of this I am sticking with it. Tracking net worth and spreadsheets  and spending normally is drudgery to me (I stopped balancing my checkbook 20 years ago). But I keep my focus on the goal which is FI and as I see these numbers move in the right direction I'm motivated to continue.

That being said, I do lose focus at times and get a little spendy, but I am human after all and I'm not always perfect. Maybe if I were a J and not a P then I wouldn't break down like that. But my NT side sees the big picture and keeps me going in spite of my occasional transgressions.

Use your vision to keep seeing the picture in order to counteract our tendency to zig and zag.

footenote

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Re: Calling out INTJ's, ENxP's (and other known personalities)
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2013, 08:17:29 AM »
Peach & Hoppy - "Containerizing" might be a helpful mental construct for you:

Create a shell or container plan. This will include how much you save each month and when you are calculated to FI/RE.

Think about the container as inviolable and (like your autonomic nervous system) rather boring.

Within the container, however, you can do whatever you like and change it as frequently as you wish. For example, for today, you can change how you make the money to generate the savings.

You can also entertain your creative selves with changing your visions of FI/RE as often as you wish: We're gonna buy a llama ranch! No, scratch the ranch, let's start a vineyard! On third thought, let's build butterfly enclosures....!

hoppy08520

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Re: Calling out INTJ's, ENxP's (and other known personalities)
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2013, 08:51:23 AM »
Footnote, good suggestions and thanks for the humorous tips -- llamas, butterflies, vineyards, etc. How about beekeeping? But I digress.

I've actually been thinking about this topic more (we ENTP's love to ponder) and have come up with some more thoughts.

"Saving and investing" is not a fixed, unchanging, boring, routine exercise. There are so many facets -- containers -- within this that can keep this ever fresh and new.

For example, since I got started in taking control of my financial life back in Feb. 2012, I've done the following:
* Discovered and committed to passive investing (index funds).
* Researched and reallocated my retirement accounts to implement index funds. Great fun in researching all the possibilities and ultimately arriving at an allocation that minimized expenses. In that time, I've switched 401(k) plans twice so I got to make a new plan all over again (fortunately each move was advantageous).
* Started really tracking spending (in Mint) and finding where we are spending too much
* Where we were spending too much, category by category (insurance, groceries, etc.), tackling the problem areas within each category, researching better ways, etc., figuring out what we can drop, what we can find cheaper, etc. Trying to reduce bills and spending is HARD. It's easy to keep spending money, but to research and implement new and better spending practices is hard. Each one is a project. I find that I enjoy each one of these projects and get enjoyment by finding better ways.
* One project for saving was biking to work (13+ months of 100% bike to work!). This has been an endlessly new and fun project and it's also helping support FI, as well as my enjoyment of life and my health.
* Another project was starting a vegetable garden to have better and cheaper food. Another new and fun project. Also a good activity with my kids.
* An extension of the gardening has been learning new recipes, since I'm cooking more from scratch (which is cheaper and tastier) and brining lunch to work instead of buying it every day at a restaurant.
* By reading MMM and other blogs, you keep getting new ideas for saving. For example, line-drying clothes instead of using the dryer. Getting an electricity meter and going around the house to find energy vampires. There's ALWAYS some other idea you can incorporate into your life.
* Last year I finally figured out how to do my income taxes, after years of paying someone to do it. Not only was this an interesting new project where I could learn, but I actually discovered new ways I could lower my taxes simply by doing things smarter. This was another light bulb moment that makes me kick myself for not learning how to do this earlier.

In short, back to Peach, "saving and investing" doesn't always have to be boring and drudgery. Something like brushing your teeth, that's drudgery and you just have to do it. But saving and investing can be a never-ending way of learning and doing new things.

Look for areas where you're not just "saving money" but also learning and doing some new activity as a side benefit, so it's not just about $$$ but it's about getting more out of life. For me, that was biking to work and gardening and cooking. Also camping -- rather than take the kids to an expensive resort, we just camp which is actually more fun and cheaper (once you buy the initial gear). I've also been learning more and more about investing, index funds, etc. I haven't really changed my strategy much, but I enjoy learning more about the theory behind it, just for its own sake.

Finally, once you get things under control and your lower spending becomes the new baseline, and you have automated your "pay yourself first" strategy (with automatic payroll deductions for 401(k) and automatic transfers into IRAs and other investments), then you can just stay on auto-pilot and take a mental break from it all. Just try not to lose it during those stretches (like buying a new SUV or McMansion or order a lot of crap from Sharper Image or Skymall or eating out every night...).

hoppy08520

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Re: Calling out INTJ's, ENxP's (and other known personalities)
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2013, 09:14:54 AM »
One more item I wanted to bring up. There's a fascinating old thread/poll in Bogleheads about MBTI and investing. People "voted" in the poll on what MBTI they are.

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2234

The poll numbers on the top of the thread seem to be messed up. I think the actual results were:

xSTJ   19%
xSFJ   2%
xSTP   4%
xSFP   1%
xNTJ   47%
xNTP   16%
xNFJ   3%
xNFP   5%

Summarizing:
N: 71% vs S: 26%
T: 86% vs F: 11%
J: 71% vs P: 26%

Not surprisingly, the NTJ's came in first at 47% even though they are just 5%-10% of the population. The "TJ" people together were 66%. The "F" people were collectively only 11% even though "F" people are more than half the population. So, simply being a "T" instead of "F" helps you more than being a "P" and not a "J" hurts, and being a "N" helps you a lot too. So at least we have N and T working for us.

Now look at who came in third: the xNTP's at 16%. So at least we came in third.

I guess this means the worst savers/investors are xSFP's, who are the artist types who have no interest in money, planning, analysis, etc. (Sorry if this insults any xSFPs who are actually reading this instead of braiding hair, doodling, knitting, splashing in puddles, etc.)

happy

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Re: Calling out INTJ's, ENxP's (and other known personalities)
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2013, 07:24:47 AM »
I think NT is  most important, being able to see the big picture and use logic/thinking with regard to finances.
A J may be more likely to get to FI faster since J's like to get things finished, but a P might be likely have a richer experience along the way...as per Hoppy's list. A J will be much more impatient to get it over with, so the time frame involved may be more excruciating.

Interestingly the daily tracking of finances is something S types would excel at, and those with strong F preferences may be motivated by the positive emotions that FI arouse.

In any case  Myer Briggs is about preferences not absolutes. So if you are not INTJ, then you can work on your weaker preferences, which is what some say we should all do in terms of personal development.

desk_jockey

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Re: Calling out INTJ's, ENxP's (and other known personalities)
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2013, 06:31:09 AM »
xNTP checking in.   Have always been a natural saver.   I gravitate towards the big impact ideas, many of which are affirmation.   I’ve benefited from reading stories of people ER on less money than I would have previously considered.    And I tend to skim over many of the fine-tuning details that fascinate the J’s on the board, e.g. using free dryer lint obtained from your neighbor (because a true mustachian wouldn’t have a dryer) to knit new socks thus moving saving rates from 63.280% to 63.295%.

Maybe not having a J sets me back a year or two in FI, but maybe having a P makes the path there a little more entertaining. 

PeachFuzzStacher

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Re: Calling out INTJ's, ENxP's (and other known personalities)
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2013, 07:35:37 AM »
@desk_jockey -

Maybe not having a J sets me back a year or two in FI, but maybe having a P makes the path there a little more entertaining. 

Good point.  I guess I have to stop worrying about comparing myself to others who may be more obsessed than myself.  It makes sense that ER is easy when it's all you care about.  For me, ER has just been added to my list of many interests, so I guess I shouldn't think too much about the intensity, just that I'm moving in the right direction.  Hell, I actually like my job, just hate getting up in the morning.

anotherAlias

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Re: Calling out INTJ's, ENxP's (and other known personalities)
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2013, 08:43:16 AM »
I'm decidedly an ISFJ and always seem to be in the minority on forums like this.  As in the rest of my life, I have learned to adapt how I learn and use other people's examples for my own personal situation.  I think the most important thing is to be aware of your strengths and weaknesses and how they apply to your finances.  Then try to use your strengths to compensate for your weaknesses.   When all else fails, use someone else's strengths to compensate for your weaknesses (one advantage for the married folks)

PeachFuzzStacher

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Re: Calling out INTJ's, ENxP's (and other known personalities)
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2013, 08:55:56 AM »
@justchristine -
As an SJ, you do have the advantage of being able to accurately and reliably stay the course that someone like MMM has laid out.  You may rebuff my statement with "obviously, that's easy".  Turns out, it isn't easy for everyone.

The person I married has most of the same strengths and weaknesses as myself, since we love each other's spontaneity.  Ex: I prefer the live versions / covers of songs because they are never the same.  I was just concerned about how to overcome being spastic and scattered in this particular challenge.

Osprey

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Re: Calling out INTJ's, ENxP's (and other known personalities)
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2013, 09:09:51 AM »
Strange, I would think that the non-conformist and freedom loving nature of xNFP types would draw them to MMM and investing. e.g. I am ENFP and ever since I saw the link between aggressive saving and autonomy I've been in it to win it.

PeachFuzzStacher

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Re: Calling out INTJ's, ENxP's (and other known personalities)
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2013, 09:50:53 AM »
@Osprey - thanks for your post.  I love ENFP's, can you tell?

Independence very much IS a common value for myself (ENTP) and wife (ENFP).  It's just that when I lay out the numbers and see a figure like "FI in 20 years, 15 if we're good at it", it's a bit discouraging.  Not that a 35 year career is wanted either, pulling a Willy Loman would be more likely than that :) .

I guess what I'm asking others if they had any other ideas along the lines of what we already decided - We're going to do the 20-30 year FI plan, but be 1/2 FI by 10 years.  I honestly wouldn't mind working part time until I die, if that meant having half of my young years back.  I like work, just not all the time.

Osprey

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Re: Calling out INTJ's, ENxP's (and other known personalities)
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2013, 03:29:23 PM »
Hmm... it's interesting that you say you wouldn't mind working part time forever. One model I am toying with is to work in bouts, with time off in between. Of course this means there is never really any "career building" or security but it is an exciting idea.
I took a few months in between jobs (I did do a lot, just not things that I got money for) in the beginning of the year and as soon as I'd saved up enough to live off for a year or two I was sorely tempted to do it again. It's addictive. It will look terrible on any CV ;)
Not sure how sustainable this idea is. Who knows...

Richard3

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Re: Calling out INTJ's, ENxP's (and other known personalities)
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2013, 03:45:15 PM »
iNTp here (much stronger NT than ip although I have no real idea what it means any more.

I've moved to the part time forever model of work (although not forever unless I enjoy it - I'm still spending less than I earn from work). Having spare time is great.

happy

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Re: Calling out INTJ's, ENxP's (and other known personalities)
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2013, 05:41:19 PM »
Hey Osprey,
I'm definitely in the work part-time for a long time mode (18 years).  I too am thinking about working in bursts...but that has come with proximity to FI, and  at 55 I don't have to worry too much about the CV.  Currently whats stopping me is the cumulative benefits that I would lose if I resigned, and my family are not independent yet so I can't drop  expenses the way I would like yet. I could try to take leave without pay without resigning, but we are very short staffed and I doubt I would get it.  One of my colleagues is a sporadic worker, doing locums and moving around part-time gigs also. She's been doing this for as long as I can remember - like 2 decades. So it is possible but then again there's always staff shortages in our specialty.

PeachFuzzStacher

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Re: Calling out INTJ's, ENxP's (and other known personalities)
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2013, 06:48:38 AM »
@happy -
What specialty is this?  Prospective perpetual part time workers may be interested.

happy

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Re: Calling out INTJ's, ENxP's (and other known personalities)
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2013, 01:59:34 PM »
Rather not say