Calling all STEM Women

[Freedom2016]

I have a burgeoning business idea that I am exploring, and in R&D mode, I'm especially interested in hearing from women working in a STEM field (i.e. computer, mathematical, architecture, engineering life science, physical science, and social science fields) on the questions below. (Guys, I'm also happy to hear from you too - am curious what your experiences on question #3 might be!)

0) What discipline or field do you work in?
1) What kind of negotiations (defined loosely as "anytime you're trying to influence somebody else, or they're trying to influence you) did you face in your first 5 years on the job?
2) Besides salary/promotions, what were/have been your most challenging negotiations in those first 5 years?
3) Have you ever felt "disadvantaged" in these situations in some way due to your gender?
4) In your academic studies, or in your first 5 years in the workforce, did you ever take any classes on negotiation or conflict management?
5) What are your negotiation strengths?
6) What negotiation skills would you like to improve?

[givemesunshine]

0) What discipline or field do you work in?

(I'm in Australia so my answers may or not be relevant)

I am a Senior Scientist in Human Physiology

1) What kind of negotiations (defined loosely as "anytime you're trying to influence somebody else, or they're trying to influence you) did you face in your first 5 years on the job?

Government positions here are salary banded so no pay negotiations until the last 5 years when we changed contracts. I had some minor negotiations regarding the content of my role, what jobs I would do and what I didn't do - partially successful, got one part of my role I didn't want.

2) Besides salary/promotions, what were/have been your most challenging negotiations?

Negotiating for PD opportunities are always challenging as they are not valued by management

3) Have you ever felt "disadvantaged" in these situations in some way due to your gender?

Yes - unfortunately there is an element of 'boys club' in my workplace and I always feel I have to be 'careful' how I say things so as to not damage any egos. Very tiring and annoying.

4) In your academic studies, or in your first years in the workforce, did you ever take any classes on negotiation or conflict management?

No - not until 2 years ago - was somewhat helpful.

5) What are your negotiation strengths?

I am logical, well prepared and calm. I use an evidence based approach to all negotiations and give pertinent examples to support my position. I am also very polite and luckily a quick thinker and good communicator under pressure - all these things help a great deal. I am also not intimidated easily and will stick up for myself/my coworkers.

6) What negotiation skills would you like to improve?

How to deal with manipulative and pigheaded managers would be much appreciated! Sometimes even logic and evidence are not enough for the 'No' men!

[mm1970]

0) What discipline or field do you work in? - engineering
1) What kind of negotiations (defined loosely as "anytime you're trying to influence somebody else, or they're trying to influence you) did you face in your first 5 years on the job? - my first 5 years as an engineer were as an officer in the Navy, and there were probably 10 women in my organization of 300. My job was to make technical decisions, but I had to get other people in other areas of expertise to agree (mine was chemistry, there were fluid systems, reactor systems, valve systems, etc.).
2) Besides salary/promotions, what were/have been your most challenging negotiations in those first 5 years?  - I learned, pretty quickly, that some of the, um, old guys really liked to have their egos stroked. So in order to get their agreement, I adjusted my approach accordingly.
3) Have you ever felt "disadvantaged" in these situations in some way due to your gender? - For sure.  You know, there and in my current field (semiconductors), you have to be persistent to get things done.  You can do a lot on your own, but you have to be persistent.  And, sadly, this is seen as "aggressive" and "pushy" if you are a woman.
4) In your academic studies, or in your first 5 years in the workforce, did you ever take any classes on negotiation or conflict management? - no
5) What are your negotiation strengths? - as far as I can tell, I don't have any.  Honestly, it helps to "not care" and be willing to just walk away.  And I'm not willing to walk away, so I am not coming from a point of strength.
6) What negotiation skills would you like to improve? - I don't know the answer to this question.

[Zamboni]

0) chemistry
1) had to negotiate to be recognized correctly as inventor on patents for my own ideas, to be included in important meetings, to be allowed to publish work that might have been held as trade secrets, to have appropriate technicians and lab space, for travel to professional conferences and workshops, not to travel to BS things I didn't want to go to that the sales or marketing guys thought I should ship out for, for new office space, for a better computer, for administrative help, for vacation days, for comp time after working some crazy hours, for coming back to work part time after child birth . . . it goes on and on.
2) none of the above were easy, but they were all easier than I thought they would be beforehand.
3) yes, because I watched as a spectator while male colleagues and subordinates (or prospective employees) were handed higher pay and other extras that they didn't even ask for, while other female employees in the same positions were paid less right off of the bat, offered less in general all of the time, and then blamed in various ways when they asked about it. There have been too many published studies to count about this, and I witnessed it on a daily basis once I got into a position to see who was being offered what (prior to even a negotiation beginning.) Women in STEM, for the most part, get screwed out of fair pay, fair perks, and fair shares of the workload. Doing more work for less pay is more common than not to this day.
4) Yes, one in college and then another one that was really valuable because I could apply the principles right away a few years into my career. I've also read several books.
5) I am not longer afraid to ask . . . for even stuff that seems ridiculous to me. I also am very aware of thinking about win-win scenarios, having my ducks in a row through research prior to asking, gauging tenor and timing of discussions, and making a long list of negotiables to work with. FU money helps A LOT, and I have it but I'm not afraid to ask for more of it.
6) Diplomacy and frequency of requests, although I do my best to stay relentlessly pleasant.

There is still clearly a bias that I should be making less than men, and frankly it pisses me off, so I have to work very hard to mask it. One time I negotiated a substantial raise for myself based upon merit, and then I later I learned that at the time I got it there was an immediate objection from the level above that they couldn't pay me more than my (much, much lower performing) male colleague who was in their boys club. So they matched his pay, and that of all of the men paid less than me even at two ranks below me, up to mine even though they didn't know about my pay increase or ask about their own pay increases. Then one specific low performer went out and got a competitive offer and they raised his pay again to keep him and didn't raise mine to match. Trust me, I'm doing the same thing shortly, but it gets old. It never ends. Basically, it's okay where I work to pay women the least, but it's not ever okay to pay a man the least.

[magickelly]

0) What discipline or field do you work in?

User Experience (past 8 years in a progressive leadership role in design research at a Fortune 50, but have had a 15 year UX career that includes information architecture, interaction design, visual design, content strategy and light front end dev)

As a side note, my undergrad degree is in physics but I did not pursue anything with it; I worked in science textbook publishing for 5 years before moving into visual and web design which quickly exploded into a career in what's now generally called User Experience. Right place, right time, right interests. I got lucky.

1) What kind of negotiations (defined loosely as "anytime you're trying to influence somebody else, or they're trying to influence you) did you face in your first 5 years on the job?

I'm going to speak to my first 5 years in a design leadership role (2008-2013... I've been in the workforce since 1994).

Tons - negotiating for more team members (I've grown my practice from a team of one to a team of 11 in 8 years), bigger opex and capex budget, updated usability labs, more equipment, assistance from other departments in recruiting customers, more face time with senior leadership... and in general just lots of favors that are needed to run a research practice in a Fortune 50 company..... oh did I mention more staff and money? The list is gigantic. On top of that I had to (when I was hands on) and now the researchers that work for me have to constantly negotiate fundamentals with stakeholders: research questions, methodology, goals, framing insights and findings, facilitating workshops and negotiation of how to apply findings that balance technical, business and user goals.

2) Besides salary/promotions, what were/have been your most challenging negotiations in those first 5 years?

Conversion of talented contractors to a full-time headcount or negotiating for full time headcount to be created or moved to grow my team.

3) Have you ever felt "disadvantaged" in these situations in some way due to your gender?

Not in the leadership or management part no. (Believe it or not!) Where we struggle more is in the actual research practice when presenting and discussing findings and application of findings with leaders who are not UX/product driven, especially the white men in suits with MBAs who think they know it all and want quick/easy solutions.

4) In your academic studies, or in your first 5 years in the workforce, did you ever take any classes on negotiation or conflict management?

Yes in my academic studies (graduate school in design research taking courses in how to argue and present a user-centered design case)
Yes in my first 5 years in the workforce when in textbook publishing - I was in sales and marketing and at one point managed a $1M sales territory - I was always in training to negotiate and close
Yes in my first 5 years at the Fortune 50 - best course was the Dale Carnegie 12 week training

To be fair, the first 5 years I spent in a sales/marketing role outside of STEM (unless you consider that they were science textbooks) are what made me successful as a female leader at a huge corporation in a gigantic tech department. I had plenty of mentorship, advocacy and time to nuture the social and soft skills needed to sell myself, sell my work, give others credit, acknowledge others' needs, etc. that made me successful in a different corporate setting.

5) What are your negotiation strengths?

Knowing when to ask:
Vision (for anticipating what I think I'll need even years down the road)
Timing (when to ask, and not like "this is the year" but like, "my boss is in a good mood today and we're having a casual lunch the setting is right, seed it NOW..."
Patience (seeding, following up, understanding that you need persistence, etc.)

6) What negotiation skills would you like to improve?

Unlike one of the respondents above, I'm not good on my feet or under pressure. My tactic is to find the right moment and be prepared, because I know I instinctively back off if I get unexpected questions or pushback and I let time pass and try again.

[deborah]

[0) What discipline or field do you work in? Computing

1) What kind of negotiations (defined loosely as "anytime you're trying to influence somebody else, or they're trying to influence you) did you face in your first 5 years on the job? Moving to more interesting positions. Getting the best outcome for the organization with regard to computer resources. One proposal I worked on had a net savings after only two months, although it was going to cost millions. Because I was responsible for several mainframes, I worked on whatever I felt like, and gradually made everything run a lot faster, interconnected them and suggested improvements... I wrote a lot of proposals as I delved into different parts of how they worked. Most were accepted, and most just involved me doing some work.

2) Besides salary/promotions, what were/have been your most challenging negotiations in those first 5 years? Getting the right software for the people using the equipment I was supporting. That part of the company was very tight for cash. For instance, I realised that the computer backups we were doing were flaky, and were occasionally being overwritten. I worked out exactly what we should be doing, and wrote a report about the whole schemozle. The report and its conclusions were accepted, but it was decided not to proceed. Unfortunately, we had a set of bad disks, and they started to fail not long after I had written the report. During full weekend stints, I managed to save the data during the first three failures, but the fourth cost us four weeks to recover from. Immediately after that, the system I wanted was put in place. I think I gained credence after that, and they agreed more readily to my requests. However, there was something else that was knocked back by the programming manager. I showed the programmers how it would save them time and money. It was bought the next day.

3) Have you ever felt "disadvantaged" in these situations in some way due to your gender? Women were always a very small minority in the positions I worked in. Once I went to a user group meeting of over 300 people and I was the only woman. I was asked who I was looking for, because I was obviously a secretary or something. It was very hard to be thought of as competent. I was routinely passed over for promotions - I remember once when our team leader left and someone else got the job. Two months later, the boss asked me if I had wanted it, because I was the only one in the team he hadn't asked - he hadn't realised that he had left me out. There was also a boys club, with a lot of the blokes riding motorcycles and having girlie posters in their room and getting changed there. I wasn't in the room with the blokes, and they were sometimes embarassed when I came in and something was going on. Because I was a woman, I was in a different location, which meant I missed out on a lot of information that I should have been told. The company had "company accommodation" in a number of places that I needed to visit, but it was policy of those places not to have female guests, so I always needed to have different accommodation to anyone else I was traveling with. This made everything about those visits more difficult than it should have been. Fortunately it was rare for me to go with someone else, as I was the only specialist in my field.

4) In your academic studies, or in your first 5 years in the workforce, did you ever take any classes on negotiation or conflict management? No

5) What are your negotiation strengths? I am retired now, but when I was working, negotiation was always something I was considered strong in because I could think on the fly, and was prepared to find out what the other people actually wanted, and creatively think of ways that we all could get what we wanted.

6) What negotiation skills would you like to improve? None. I am happily retired.

The first five years was a long time ago now, and I find it incredible how things have changed over time.

[Exhale]

I advise graduate students in a STEM field.

Some of the challenges that female students face include:
- Self confidence - feeling that they belong and have relevance to the field
- Body language - Amy Cuddy's body language TEDTalk has been helpful
- Verbal communication, especially in uncomfortable situations
- Salary/promotion negotiation - they like the book Ask for It by Babcock and Laschever

[Freedom2016]

Thanks so much for the replies!

Small data pool so far, but responses seem to be lining up with my thinking and experience, which is that women early in a STEM career are unlikely to have exposure/training/skills/support for negotiating better outcomes for themselves, and they are operating in a particularly difficult environment re gender imbalance / bias.

lkell - I'm not surprised that in a sales role you got neg. training/experience, though I am a bit surprised (heartened) to hear you got exposure in grad school.  In my experience companies will invest in training young talent in negotiation when they are in customer-facing, revenue-generating kinds of roles (typically sales / marketing / procurement) but less so in other individual contributor roles.

Those of you who have 10+ years of experience in your fields, what do you know about the millennial women coming up behind you - in terms of their gender-related challenges in the workplace (same as yours? different? harder? easier?), their existing negotiation skill sets, their appetite to get more training/help?

Exhale - interesting stuff re your mentors. I show the Amy Cuddy video to students myself, and I'm familiar with Babcock & Laschever.

[deborah]

Things are not as overt as they were when I started. People realise that there are some things they shouldn't do (like having girlie pictures up in the office, making remarks about being safe because you have had a vasectomy, showing nude pictures of yourself around the office... all of which happened to me in my first five years) but the underlying gender problems are probably the same or worse. Figures show that equal opportunity doesn't happen. Women still get paid less for doing the same job - and the amount less doesn't seem to budge in the right direction!

[magickelly]

lkell - I'm not surprised that in a sales role you got neg. training/experience, though I am a bit surprised (heartened) to hear you got exposure in grad school.  In my experience companies will invest in training young talent in negotiation when they are in customer-facing, revenue-generating kinds of roles (typically sales / marketing / procurement) but less so in other individual contributor roles.

It might help to share a bit more about my professional graduate program, which lives at the intersection of tech/design/social science/business is incredibly niche and unique. The focus then and now is still on creating design leaders whether at major corporations or at leading innovation consultancies like IDEO, frog, Sapient Nitro, and the like. A few were really into entrepreneurship and at least half of my class was "Silicon Valley or bust" with dreams of being the next Steve Jobs (today more likely the next Elon Musk ;-)) Some of my peers went on to join McKinsey or PWC into innovation consulting practices.

https://www.id.iit.edu/

I was there 10 years ago when design thinking and business anthropology were emerging buzzwords and UX was an emerging discipline and the iPod and Razr were cutting edge products. In the interim, touchscreens, social media and IoT has changed the world. They've added programs that combine an MDes with an MBA, shorter executive programs and even more leadership courses. Most of the tracks are tech/design degrees with lots of leanings towards an MBA style approach and curriculum. Even when I was there the emphasis was on group projects as training on how to manage time and collaborate with others and in every course we always had to get up and present our work to the class, often challenged to create and deliver 5 minute summaries and take questions.

This is one of specific courses I did take: https://www.id.iit.edu/courses/making-the-user-centered-case and the instructor could be blunt and a couple of students cried when he gave them tough feedback on their non-verbal communication, speaking style or logic... and sadly, yes it was the women who would be so sensitive.

Those of you who have 10+ years of experience in your fields, what do you know about the millennial women coming up behind you - in terms of their gender-related challenges in the workplace (same as yours? different? harder? easier?), their existing negotiation skill sets, their appetite to get more training/help?

In broad strokes, within UX (and I'm talking 20 somethings who are visual designers, interaction designers and IA's working as "UX Designers") they are more shy and less confident than their male peers and the males appear to outnumber the females easily 4:1. To be blunt, there's nothing that irritates me more these days than some 27-year old "UX Director" at little Brooklyn agency with 10-15 employees total, who wears the hipster uniform, tweets about craft beer and being a foodie, and then tries to dismiss me as a stuffy corporate UX leader who questions their contrived thought processes and weak assumptions. And I do find it fascinating that I never run into women with this demeanor and attitude, only men. Often when the agency folks come to our offices for presentations or working sessions, there's at least one woman with the 3-5 men and they are very submissive and repressed. It makes me sad. The women in our corporate environment are much more confident, assertive and less outnumbered (our UX department of 100+ is probably 40/60 female to male).

[givemesunshine]

Millennial generation - males over confident, women under confident. In at least 80% of cases the women have far better soft skills and the same or better fundamental knowledge. I also find the women easier to teach and train as they listen better and don't already think they know it all. There are obviously individuals that buck the trend but we have employed 50% women in the last 5 years which has changed the makeup of our work place fairly significantly.

Don't think upper management are too happy, all they see are potential maternity leave positions to fill (that is honestly their attitude) - but I couldn't care less.

[mm1970]

Thanks so much for the replies!

Small data pool so far, but responses seem to be lining up with my thinking and experience, which is that women early in a STEM career are unlikely to have exposure/training/skills/support for negotiating better outcomes for themselves, and they are operating in a particularly difficult environment re gender imbalance / bias.

lkell - I'm not surprised that in a sales role you got neg. training/experience, though I am a bit surprised (heartened) to hear you got exposure in grad school.  In my experience companies will invest in training young talent in negotiation when they are in customer-facing, revenue-generating kinds of roles (typically sales / marketing / procurement) but less so in other individual contributor roles.

Those of you who have 10+ years of experience in your fields, what do you know about the millennial women coming up behind you - in terms of their gender-related challenges in the workplace (same as yours? different? harder? easier?), their existing negotiation skill sets, their appetite to get more training/help?

Exhale - interesting stuff re your mentors. I show the Amy Cuddy video to students myself, and I'm familiar with Babcock & Laschever.

I've been working for 23+ years now.  My experience with younger women in STEM is limited to a sample size of three.  I'd say that their challenges are the same as mine.  When you are young, you've got that whole starry-eyed thing going in your new job.  In general, the two women engineers we hired were stronger than the men.  I'd say of the new grad hires that I have worked with at my current company - two women, and six men - top two were men, then two women, then bottom 3 were men.  (Top two were my first hires, and I may be a bit biased because I worked with them longer.)

I think they have an appetite to get more training, and some of them really listen.  One of the women who I didn't work directly with was a talker.  A talker.  It was a definite detriment to her career.  However, she heard me counsel the people working for me with "if you want more money, you  need to change jobs to get a bigger raise.  You get more responsibility where you are, then more money somewhere else."  She is, in fact, the only person to take that to heart and quit, as opposed to getting laid off.

[MsPeacock]

0) What discipline or field do you work in? Clinical Psychology

1) What kind of negotiations (defined loosely as "anytime you're trying to influence somebody else, or they're trying to influence you) did you face in your first 5 years on the job? Promotions, job duties and assignments

2) Besides salary/promotions, what were/have been your most challenging negotiations in those first 5 years?
job duties/assignments - which is similar to promotion, or a means of working towards promotion

3) Have you ever felt "disadvantaged" in these situations in some way due to your gender?
Absolutely!

4) In your academic studies, or in your first 5 years in the workforce, did you ever take any classes on negotiation or conflict management? Nope.

5) What are your negotiation strengths?
Skills and experience in my field. Fortunately, I am ~17 years post grad now. Clinical psychology is an area when experience counts favorably, and generally no one in going to have years of experience until they are in their mid to late 40s.

6) What negotiation skills would you like to improve? I tend to underestimate myself and get frustrated when there are seemingly insurmountable problems or the perception/reality that leadership doesn't care much in providing assistance. I'd say that everyone at my level is frustrated with this (I work for a massive organization) and the problem is due to the institution rather than a failure in my negotiation skills.

[GreenSheep]

I am a woman who works in one of these fields but have never really had to negotiate for my pay. I'm just chiming in to note that the Freaknomics podcast recently covered the gender pay gap. Their (female) guest, a Harvard economist who is an expert on this topic, noted that most of the gap is actually not accounted for by discrimination.

http://freakonomics.com/2016/01/07/the-true-story-of-the-gender-pay-gap-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/

[Jesstache]

I have a burgeoning business idea that I am exploring, and in R&D mode, I'm especially interested in hearing from women working in a STEM field (i.e. computer, mathematical, architecture, engineering life science, physical science, and social science fields) on the questions below. (Guys, I'm also happy to hear from you too - am curious what your experiences on question #3 might be!)

0) What discipline or field do you work in? Aerospace Engineering
1) What kind of negotiations (defined loosely as "anytime you're trying to influence somebody else, or they're trying to influence you) did you face in your first 5 years on the job?
Salary, promotion (from Engineer I to II), best way to perform technical analysis

2) Besides salary/promotions, what were/have been your most challenging negotiations in those first 5 years? Lots of team work in engineering so in general it helps to be able to argue for why a particular method could or should be used when analyzing a structure for strength

3) Have you ever felt "disadvantaged" in these situations in some way due to your gender? My first two years I worked for a female manager and felt I actually had an advantage as I think she went out of her way to make sure female engineers wouldn't have to suffer through the descrimination she had to as a young engineer.  Despite this, I ended up leaving that company to double my pay.  Next boss was a typical sleaze ball.  I asked for a raise once (with the appropriate reasoning to back it up) and he got super pissed and told me I was greedy to ask for a raise when he knew how much my husband made.  Would he dare say this to a man?  Turns out (as he revealed in is subsequent tirade) they had been dinged by the EEOC during an audit for me (only female engineer in the office of 80 engineers) making less than the males at my same level and since I asked they HAD to give me a raise... Just to bring no me to the same level.  I was managing people levels above me!

4) In your academic studies, or in your first 5 years in the workforce, did you ever take any classes on negotiation or conflict management? No. I did read a few books for career women though. One was "Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office"

5) What are your negotiation strengths? I'm very confident in my worth and work etic.  In tecnical discussions, I always know my material inside and out and can speak to the whys

6) What negotiation skills would you like to improve? These days I stay at home with kids and am FI so likely will not return to the workforce full time so... any pointers on getting my 2 year old to peacefully agree to wear his damn coat!?! Haha... No seriously.

[mm1970]

I am a woman who works in one of these fields but have never really had to negotiate for my pay. I'm just chiming in to note that the Freaknomics podcast recently covered the gender pay gap. Their (female) guest, a Harvard economist who is an expert on this topic, noted that most of the gap is actually not accounted for by discrimination.

http://freakonomics.com/2016/01/07/the-true-story-of-the-gender-pay-gap-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/

I read this kind of stuff all the time, but it's really just excuses.  Sure, there are a lot of reasons for the pay gap.

But in my experience (in the experience of many of my friends), it *is* discrimination.  Same experience, same job, less money.  In  my industry at my level of experience, it's 88 cents on the dollar, which is $17k a year.  This goes across the board, including women friends who never had children.  And if I read "women don't negotiate" one more time I'm going to scream.  Nearly every time I've negotiated, or a friend has negotiated, it has backfired. If you try to do it "gently",  like a woman, it is ignored. If you follow the lead of the successful men (play hardball), you are a bitch, and you are vilified for it.  For being "uppity". 

How many women choose different "paths" (with more flexibility to care for children or aging parents) because the "want" it, and how many choose it because "fuck it, working like a man isn't getting me anywhere".

[MDM]

I am a woman who works in one of these fields but have never really had to negotiate for my pay. I'm just chiming in to note that the Freaknomics podcast recently covered the gender pay gap. Their (female) guest, a Harvard economist who is an expert on this topic, noted that most of the gap is actually not accounted for by discrimination.

http://freakonomics.com/2016/01/07/the-true-story-of-the-gender-pay-gap-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/

If true, this quote from that podcast might explain why I haven't seen the problem: "So, the ones that have the smallest difference between male and female earnings with these corrections are the technology occupations and the science occupations and the health occupations where there is a small degree of self-employment...."

Working for Megacorp (a science & technology company), there were always statistical analyses of pay and pay increases among gender, race, etc. to ensure these pay gaps would not exist.  There may (or may not - I'm not sure) have been a purely gender- or race-based gap in promotion rates to the upper managerial and technical positions, but for the same job level the pay was within the statistical margin of error for all cohorts.

Can't speak about other fields or companies....

[edmundblackadder]

0) What discipline or field do you work in?

Higher ed software engineer.

1) What kind of negotiations (defined loosely as "anytime you're trying to influence somebody else, or they're trying to influence you) did you face in your first 5 years on the job?

Salary, for every job I've had. Project scope, several times over; design decisions, basically every project I've been involved with.

2) Besides salary/promotions, what were/have been your most challenging negotiations in those first 5 years?

Usually scope discussions, because I've historically been in a junior position while trying to restrict the hopes and dreams (tm) of a formally-senior-to-me internal client. It's hard to say no and negotiate effectively when you only have expertise on your side, not formal authority.

3) Have you ever felt "disadvantaged" in these situations in some way due to your gender?

I should note: I attended two single-sex schools and had it DRUMMED INTO ME that women needed to be assertive in the workplace, from the age of eleven onwards. So, I'm aware of the social bias against women negotiating, and I've read the academic studies and talked about it with feminist friends (and urged them to be more aggressive in their negotiations), and I've sensed, without concrete evidence, that my bosses have been surprised-but-receptive that I was ready and willing to ask for raises and intangible benefits. I strongly suspect that a man in my position would not be as nervous opening explicit negotiations (i.e., salary discussions) as I am, just because I've heard SO MANY horror stories of women & negotiating backfiring on them.

4) In your academic studies, or in your first 5 years in the workforce, did you ever take any classes on negotiation or conflict management?

Yes! There was one seminar my senior year of undergrad (2011, single-sex school), and two continuing ed classes that my employer paid for a few years ago.

5) What are your negotiation strengths?

I'm really good at active listening and understanding what my negotiation partner(s) actually want, rather than what they say they want. (This is a skill I use a LOT in client interactions, because people are idiots who don't want what they think they want 90% of the time.)

6) What negotiation skills would you like to improve?

Anticipating what other people want? Being less reactive? IDK. Mostly I think I just need practice, but I hate roleplaying with a fiery passion, so....

[Freedom2016]

Gah! I haven't been getting notifications of the posts here. Great additional input:

And if I read "women don't negotiate" one more time I'm going to scream.  Nearly every time I've negotiated, or a friend has negotiated, it has backfired. If you try to do it "gently",  like a woman, it is ignored. If you follow the lead of the successful men (play hardball), you are a bitch, and you are vilified for it.  For being "uppity". 

Absolutely. This is called the "double bind" in the research - don't ask/don't assert and you won't get. Ask/assert and you're both disliked for doing so, and you still might not get.


My observation is that there is, lately, more coaching/advice available to women on negotiating their salaries - though I'm researching how much of that advice is tailored to take the double bind into account.

But my view is this: salary or promotion negotiations happen relatively infrequently but on-the-job negotiations are happening ALL THE TIME (and of course the skill a woman brings to those everyday interactions has an impact on her advancement). The theory I am testing is whether there is a resource/skills gap for young women in STEM careers- I'm seeing lots of activity around getting girls and women into the "STEM Pipeline" and certainly career advancement and leadership opportunities once they are established in their careers, but what about the years in between those two things?

It sounds like a couple of you did get some negotiation exposure/training/discussion/skills support early-ish in your careers (or in school), but that most others learned as they went and/or got that exposure at sometime later in their careers. Is that a fair statement?

I've been doing negotiation training/advising/consulting for 20 years and am exploring whether there's a gap here that I could help fill.

[AllieVaulter]

Here's another response:

0) What discipline or field do you work in? 
I teach physics at a university

1) What kind of negotiations (defined loosely as "anytime you're trying to influence somebody else, or they're trying to influence you) did you face in your first 5 years on the job?
I'm in a weird position, I'm an instructor, but not a professor - the only salaried instructor in my department.  All 5 of the professors are kind of my boss.  It's weird.  And my position is kind of loosely defined.  So it feels like every interaction with every professor is a negotiation to see what I will do for them. 

2) Besides salary/promotions, what were/have been your most challenging negotiations in those first 5 years?
We hired a new professor and tried to ease him into the position by doing extra work for him his first year...  It's 3 years later and he still thinks that first year was "normal" on my part.  I'm trying to convince him it wasn't, but I'm obviously miserable at this.  It's to the point I'd almost rather just quit and find a different job. 

3) Have you ever felt "disadvantaged" in these situations in some way due to your gender?
Maybe?  It's hard to tell because I have many disadvantages.  1) Education.  I have an MS, I'm the only non-PhD in the department.  2) Age.  I'm at least a decade younger than everyone else.  3) Job title. It's a unique job title and inherently "below" everyone else.  It would be demeaning, but I think they designed for me since I'll never be a professor w/o a PhD and this officially puts me as full-time faculty, so maybe I should be flattered?  4) Inclination. Or nature. Or lacking in ambition.  I'm salaried and the university administration determines the pay of all non-professors, so I don't even know who I'm supposed to try to convince to pay me more money. 

4) In your academic studies, or in your first 5 years in the workforce, did you ever take any classes on negotiation or conflict management?
Nope.  Never.  I probably should.  I can't really even haggle on craigslist or in flea markets. 

5) What are your negotiation strengths?
I'm going to go with none.  Maybe my financial situation.  While I'm not FI, I do have some FU money.  But in my case, it may almost work against me.  I know I can save money even when I earn very little, so it's not crucial for me to earn more. 

6) What negotiation skills would you like to improve?
I'm not even sure what skills are beneficial.  I'm sure self-confidence is an issue, but even more is just not knowing what's normal.  I'm aware of the double-bind predicament, so I don't want to deal with that.  But I'm not even sure when is an appropriate time to negotiate and who to negotiate with. 

[Redfive20]

0) What discipline or field do you work in? Financial
1) What kind of negotiations (defined loosely as "anytime you're trying to influence somebody else, or they're trying to influence you) did you face in your first 5 years on the job? Worked for a consulting firm and needed to negotiate with clients on assignments
2) Besides salary/promotions, what were/have been your most challenging negotiations in those first 5 years? Influence the hiring of my manager
3) Have you ever felt "disadvantaged" in these situations in some way due to your gender? no
4) In your academic studies, or in your first 5 years in the workforce, did you ever take any classes on negotiation or conflict management? no
5) What are your negotiation strengths? I am a team player and would like to consider inputs from everyone.
6) What negotiation skills would you like to improve? I have gone through the training at work on the crucial conversation and think that it is very helpful for both work and personal life.

When I grew up, a group of good friends of mine were among the top students on every STEM subject throughout all levels of schools until college. In our case, girls beat boys most time on all the STEM subjects. Now when we are in the middle age, we all have achieved a rewarding career in different STEM fields where we have not done worse than our male colleagues. Therefore, I never felt that being a girl is a hurdle. I am hiring and managing people now and I don't consider gender at all for performance and promotion. Actually, I feel that there could be advantage to be a woman when the company needs to hire enough women to a STEM field that men is dominating.

[Sylly]

I am a woman who works in one of these fields but have never really had to negotiate for my pay. I'm just chiming in to note that the Freaknomics podcast recently covered the gender pay gap. Their (female) guest, a Harvard economist who is an expert on this topic, noted that most of the gap is actually not accounted for by discrimination.

http://freakonomics.com/2016/01/07/the-true-story-of-the-gender-pay-gap-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/

GreenSheep, thanks for the link. I've always wanted to know what an actual scientific comparison says.

I read this kind of stuff all the time, but it's really just excuses.  Sure, there are a lot of reasons for the pay gap.

But in my experience (in the experience of many of my friends), it *is* discrimination.  Same experience, same job, less money.  In  my industry at my level of experience, it's 88 cents on the dollar, which is $17k a year. 

The plural of anecdote is not data. I'm not saying there's no discrimination. Neither does Goldin's study. It's just saying the .77 or .88 numbers are not meaningful, and that the gap is actually much smaller. It drives me crazy when people compare two numbers from two different samples and expect the comparison to be taken seriously.

0) Physics
1) Initial salary; job role; promotion for a colleague I supervised. On the technical side, project planning, scope & schedule; methods, design of technical studies.
2) Job role -- I was happy doing my technical stuff. Boss tried to get me to manage people. We compromised with a trial period.
3) No. I don't feel that my company treats me any differently because of my gender.
4) No.
5) I do my research to support my position.
6) I'm bad on my feet, on most things. Improving that would be good.

[deborah]

In Australia there have been studies that ALLOWING FOR EVERYTHING ELSE have still found pay differences between men and women doing exactly the same work. I would think that this might be worse in the US, as in the areas we are talking about, in general, Australia is usually ahead of the US.

See
https://www.humanrights.gov.au/face-facts-gender-equality
https://www.wgea.gov.au/sites/default/files/Gender_Pay_Gap_Factsheet.pdf

[mm1970]

I am a woman who works in one of these fields but have never really had to negotiate for my pay. I'm just chiming in to note that the Freaknomics podcast recently covered the gender pay gap. Their (female) guest, a Harvard economist who is an expert on this topic, noted that most of the gap is actually not accounted for by discrimination.

http://freakonomics.com/2016/01/07/the-true-story-of-the-gender-pay-gap-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/

GreenSheep, thanks for the link. I've always wanted to know what an actual scientific comparison says.

I read this kind of stuff all the time, but it's really just excuses.  Sure, there are a lot of reasons for the pay gap.

But in my experience (in the experience of many of my friends), it *is* discrimination.  Same experience, same job, less money.  In  my industry at my level of experience, it's 88 cents on the dollar, which is $17k a year. 

The plural of anecdote is not data. I'm not saying there's no discrimination. Neither does Goldin's study. It's just saying the .77 or .88 numbers are not meaningful, and that the gap is actually much smaller. It drives me crazy when people compare two numbers from two different samples and expect the comparison to be taken seriously.

0) Physics
1) Initial salary; job role; promotion for a colleague I supervised. On the technical side, project planning, scope & schedule; methods, design of technical studies.
2) Job role -- I was happy doing my technical stuff. Boss tried to get me to manage people. We compromised with a trial period.
3) No. I don't feel that my company treats me any differently because of my gender.
4) No.
5) I do my research to support my position.
6) I'm bad on my feet, on most things. Improving that would be good.

I am well aware that the plural of anecdote is not data.

But data-wise (my own personal $0.88) - My anecdote is actually $31k.  That's how much less I am paid than the median male in my industry with my experience and job title.

The *data* from the large-scale industry survey (2012, full time work, accounting for industry, job title, hours worked) is:
$135k median for males with 20-25 years of experience
$118k median for females with 20-25 years of experience.

DATA needs to be specific.  I agree that the 77 cents on the dollar information is not meaningful.  In the above particular case?  It is meaningful, as it's data not an anecdote, and it's corrected for "all those other things" - job title, hours worked, etc.