Amusing (and true) face punches about student debt

[matchewed]

Ugh, another one of these discussions?

Seriously can't anyone see that when we're bringing up the example of the person who just got the 100k photography degree that we're not even in a representative sample of the person who takes out loans anymore?

This running around and blowing up about hyperbolic examples skews the view of the discussion. So let's save all the youth bashing and liberal arts hating on one side and the pity party on the other side and realize it isn't a big deal. There are so few people with this level of debt that this is akin to screaming about the number of Hummers on the road today.

Time to wind up the outrage machine, hasn't had enough yet.

I know several people in real life that this applies to.  It's certainly not everyone, but it is still happening.

So what?

OK. I guess I could choose to reply that to every single thread on here, but since it contributes nothing, I don't.

I experienced first hand the ridiculous misinformation by administrators in the education system. IE, when I decided not to attend a private professional school for $100k/year to wait a year and apply for state school again, the response by my professional school counselor was, "but you can pay that off! Don't you understand that your decisions looks bad to other schools now that you declined an acceptance?" 400k + living expenses. At 8% interest, and all she could say to me was that I look bad to future schools now. I doubt this lady ever had to pay off 1 mil over a span longer than most marriages last.

It took me 4 years of going to college and growing up to think about money and education rationally. I'm just lucky that I did end up going to a state school for my bachelor's and have no debt. But I have plenty of "high-achieving" colleagues who are going to prestigious schools and will no doubt be paying for it later on. When you are impressionable, and there are parents, society, wanting to impress others, etc involved and you don't have a strong opinion either way it's easy to be swayed by a sparkly diploma. My point is, one does not have to be outrageously dumb to take on a helluva student debt at a young age and be tied to that for years and years to come.

Cool story. What school was that which costs 100k per year for undergrad?

One hash mark for the pity party tally please.

[TrulyStashin]

http://education.newamerica.net/publications/policy/the_graduate_student_debt_review

Here is an interesting excerpt about WHO is carrying the student debt.  A recent study by the New America Foundation found that 40% of the overwhelming $1 Trillion student debt is carried by those with graduate degrees. They give a couple of examples of tuition nearly doubling from 2004 to 2012.

Have those with graduate level education seen a near doubling of their expected income? Or are all these highly educated people idiots that deserve a punch in the face? Or is there something else going on?

The 40% includes not just "graduate" degrees but also "professional" degrees (law, medicine).  I'm not surprised by that.  And you can punch yourself in the face for jumping to conclusions and failing to consider that (1) not only did tuition skyrocket in recent years; (2) once committed to a two-, three-, four-, or five-year course of study funded (even in part) by loans, there's no backing out because now you REALLY need that degree; (3) the 40% includes people (like me) who started a grad/ professional degree that had a likely high ROI only to have the economy crash in the middle of our program, thus drastically altering the arc of our post-grad prospects.

In short, choosing to get a graduate or professional degree is a very complicated decision, executed over a long timeframe, with an outcome that is subject to market fluctuations outside one's control.  I object to your simplistic and asinine framing of the issue.  It's not helpful.

~ Badass Law School Grad, Class of 2011 (part of the 40%)

[lisahi]

Law school here -- $160,000 in loans at the end of it.

The problem is that there aren't a whole lot of people out there (who are visible) that are telling students not to take out education loans. It's become expected. And unless the student is financially savvy (which I wasn't in my 20s, I'll admit), they're not going to think about tomorrow; rather they're going to think about now.

Hindsight is 20/20. I should have gone to that state law school in my hometown that offered me a bunch of scholarships but that was in the 2nd tier.  Instead I went to that state law school that was in another state that didn't offer me a bunch of scholarships because it was 1st tier. Live and learn.

That said, many students going to professional schools are not offered tons of scholarships. It's either student loans or bust. And waiting tables while going to law school or, even worse, medical school, is not always possible. Indeed, some law schools prohibit first years from working.

[SisterX]

Like when they tell me they have $100,000 in student loan debt and they have a liberal arts degree (ie they couldn't hack it getting a technical degree).  I mean wtf were you thinking that you racked up over 100k in debt with no game plan and no career prospects?  Do they not think more than a few months into the future?  Do they not understand math or finances? Do I really want to hire someone that makes those kinds of decisions?  Not only did they rack up 100k+ in debt with practically nothing to show for it, but they just wasted the last 4-5 years not being financially productive so it's a double whammy.

You're being really harsh here.  Thank a teacher for teaching you how to write these (frustrating) comments in the first place.  First, you're looking at this issue from the vantage point of an adult who's taught himself personal finance discipline.  Could you have been so rational and were you so judgmental at 18 years old? 

And as for not being able to "hack it" in a technical major - that's some elitist-geek nonsense.  I could have been a chemist, engineer, programmer if not for the fact that science bores me to tears.  My productivity in the world is directly related to not hating every waking moment of my career.  And like it or not, even engineers need to learn to string together a word or two to effectively communicate with each other.

I agree.  From my experience, the folks who have technical degrees and no liberal education or travel experience are the primary reason why history repeats itself.  This, you can imagine, is a gigantic cost to world.  Don't get me wrong, some of my best friends are engineers (he said with a wink), but they can drive me crazy.  It's been fun to watch the engineers work so hard try to do everything within the current financial system to make it work, operating under the assumption that nothing can ever change so at to not rock the political boat.  Liberal arts majors tend to focus on changing messed up systems and, at the same time, make some really dumb mathematical errors or engage in wishful thinking when it comes to our financial system.  It's been fun to watch the two collide here.  Be careful what you wish for because a world without liberal arts, will be a cold, boring, harsh, unimaginative and potentially unenlightened and dangerous world.

What a load of rubbish.  You get plenty of liberal education with a technical degree, but you also get the technical education.  If they really were so creative, imaginative, and smart maybe they would become engineers so they could become FI sooner and do more good in the world, or changing a messed up system, or whatever you like.  No one wants to eliminate liberal arts, but its a stupid path to down if your plan is to not rack up student loan debt and get a high paying job.

What the fuck is it with tech people assuming that their degree is better, or they're somehow smarter than those who get liberal arts degrees?  Seriously.  I have had to put up with getting shit about my lit degree since I graduated but you know what?  I carry zero debt for it and I think I'm a hell of a lot smarter for it.  You know why?  Because I learned to look at things more deeply and to look at things from multiple angles, rather than just learning a set of facts to memorize and being told, "This is how you think about this type of problem/situation.  This is how you should approach this sort of thing to get a solution.  Do X and Y happens!" 
As for the "usefulness" of liberal arts degrees, or how well they pay, mine is actually one of the most in-demand degrees (shocking!  I know!) because people don't know how to fucking write any more because "it's stupid".  I have also used it to be my family's breadwinner for the last 5 years, since graduating, because my husband got a "good" degree in biology and has had every single job he's worked at get closed down due to government budget cuts, grants running out, or the company flat out tanking in this economy.
It's not that I "can't hack it" in a technical degree (I got A's in logic, astronomy, biology, economics, ...) it's that I chose to follow my passions.  Pardon me for thinking that literature and music are just as fucking important as being able to type a few lines of code.
So, take your moral judgements about who can and make it in a tech field, or what degree people "should" get and shove them up your incredibly tight asses.  I'm going to take my liberal arts degree, continue being a happily employed creative thinker, and use my skills to help create the better world I want without having to change who I am to do so.

As for the person who said that social workers are just screwed all around, I have 2 family members who have their master's degrees in social work.  One is employed, the other took a year off for her daughter and is now looking for work again.  Neither of them carries any debt for their degrees.  It depends entirely upon the person, not which degree they choose.  Most engineers I know carry more student loan debt than the liberal arts majors you guys love to hate on, and most of them aren't paying it off as quickly either.  I also don't know a single person with a liberal arts degree who A) isn't employed in a field they love and B) is unemployed/underemployed except by choice.  Who's smarter now?  The person working a bit longer at something they truly love, or the person who's wiling away their life in a cubicle and counting down the days?

[rocksinmyhead]

My first engineering classes started with about 400 students (that included all engineering disciplines).  By the time we graduated we only had about 12 in the chemical engineering course.   Way more than half of the people that originally started down the engineering path didn't make it.  You could watch it happen in real time.  Each difficult class more and more struggled and eventually dropped the class because it was too difficult.  Happened in organic chemistry, differential equations, thermodynamics, kinetics, etc.

I don't doubt that there are tons of people who drop engineering because they can't hack it, but I'm not sure why it's so hard to wrap your brain around the concept that there are some people who could "hack it" but just don't want to. shit, I entered college 100% certain I wanted to major in English and secondary education. not because I couldn't hack it in a technical field, just because that's what interested me and what I thought would be fulfilling. guess what, turns out I CAN hack it in a technical field because instead I ended up with a BS and an MS in geology and a job as a geologist. I know, I know, geology majors are like the dumb stoner science majors and it's probably not technical enough for you... whatever.

So I chose a good university with a good engineering program that was 1/4 the price of the big state universities and was also within commuting distance and then tried to pay my debt off as it accumulated.   I had 11k in debt when I graduated and had that paid off within the first year.

Then, for the love of Pete, pay this wise advice forward the next time a 17 year old kid mentions her/his college search. ;-)

It won't matter even if you do.  The people who care already know all the information, and the people who don't care don't listen when told.  They'd rather live like kings on student loans blowing thousands of dollars a year on booze and restaurants and nice apartments.

can you people not fathom a fucking middle ground for ANYTHING?!?

I'm sure there are some people who spend all their student loans on hookers and blow, but there are also people who genuinely did not even THINK about this shit because they were 17 and their parents (who also really had no money, but had the ability to take out Parent PLUS loans) and stupid "financial aid counselors" told them it was fine! everyone does it! duh, it's totally fine. I didn't spend a CRAAAAZY amount on booze and restaurants and nice apartments... I had roommates and I lived in old houses with mice and no air conditioning or cable, and I ate beans and rice and had potluck dinners with friends and drank shitty beer, and I fucking loved it! it was college! but I still ended up with $70k in loans because I went to a private school because I was fucking stupid, and everyone told me it was going to be okay. I got lucky and it actually was okay (will pay off my last loan next week, it took two years) but it could totally have gone the other way if I didn't end up with a great job, so I really feel for those people.

I would have loved it if someone told me the truth. Instead most high school students are told that it doesn't matter how much it costs. All they see is copious amounts of college marketing. Also, no one advises that once you are locked into a school they will raise tuition every year while you are there. Making the last year nearly 10-15k more expensive than the first year! There is no explanation from parents or guidance counselors to tell you the amount of debt will be astronomical. My parents are middle class and said NOTHING about the 100k in loans I took out. I worked PT through college, 3 jobs in the summer and still took out that much. I applied to college when I was 16! I couldn't even drive after 8pm but I'm supposed to know my starting salary and total tuition costs projected ahead for 5 years? Am I really supposed to know any better? I didn't even know what engineers actual did for jobs was until I was working on my senior college project.

I'm not trying to pull the victim card. But we need more people to speak up and advice on the truth. Its discouraging to hear you say its not worth it because they won't listen. That will only perpetuate the problem.

+1000

[Numbers Man]

Like when they tell me they have $100,000 in student loan debt and they have a liberal arts degree (ie they couldn't hack it getting a technical degree).  I mean wtf were you thinking that you racked up over 100k in debt with no game plan and no career prospects?  Do they not think more than a few months into the future?  Do they not understand math or finances? Do I really want to hire someone that makes those kinds of decisions?  Not only did they rack up 100k+ in debt with practically nothing to show for it, but they just wasted the last 4-5 years not being financially productive so it's a double whammy.

You're being really harsh here.  Thank a teacher for teaching you how to write these (frustrating) comments in the first place.  First, you're looking at this issue from the vantage point of an adult who's taught himself personal finance discipline.  Could you have been so rational and were you so judgmental at 18 years old? 

And as for not being able to "hack it" in a technical major - that's some elitist-geek nonsense.  I could have been a chemist, engineer, programmer if not for the fact that science bores me to tears.  My productivity in the world is directly related to not hating every waking moment of my career.  And like it or not, even engineers need to learn to string together a word or two to effectively communicate with each other.

I agree.  From my experience, the folks who have technical degrees and no liberal education or travel experience are the primary reason why history repeats itself.  This, you can imagine, is a gigantic cost to world.  Don't get me wrong, some of my best friends are engineers (he said with a wink), but they can drive me crazy.  It's been fun to watch the engineers work so hard try to do everything within the current financial system to make it work, operating under the assumption that nothing can ever change so at to not rock the political boat.  Liberal arts majors tend to focus on changing messed up systems and, at the same time, make some really dumb mathematical errors or engage in wishful thinking when it comes to our financial system.  It's been fun to watch the two collide here.  Be careful what you wish for because a world without liberal arts, will be a cold, boring, harsh, unimaginative and potentially unenlightened and dangerous world.

What a load of rubbish.  You get plenty of liberal education with a technical degree, but you also get the technical education.  If they really were so creative, imaginative, and smart maybe they would become engineers so they could become FI sooner and do more good in the world, or changing a messed up system, or whatever you like.  No one wants to eliminate liberal arts, but its a stupid path to down if your plan is to not rack up student loan debt and get a high paying job.

What the fuck is it with tech people assuming that their degree is better, or they're somehow smarter than those who get liberal arts degrees?  Seriously.  I have had to put up with getting shit about my lit degree since I graduated but you know what?  I carry zero debt for it and I think I'm a hell of a lot smarter for it.  You know why?  Because I learned to look at things more deeply and to look at things from multiple angles, rather than just learning a set of facts to memorize and being told, "This is how you think about this type of problem/situation.  This is how you should approach this sort of thing to get a solution.  Do X and Y happens!" 
As for the "usefulness" of liberal arts degrees, or how well they pay, mine is actually one of the most in-demand degrees (shocking!  I know!) because people don't know how to fucking write any more because "it's stupid".  I have also used it to be my family's breadwinner for the last 5 years, since graduating, because my husband got a "good" degree in biology and has had every single job he's worked at get closed down due to government budget cuts, grants running out, or the company flat out tanking in this economy.
It's not that I "can't hack it" in a technical degree (I got A's in logic, astronomy, biology, economics, ...) it's that I chose to follow my passions.  Pardon me for thinking that literature and music are just as fucking important as being able to type a few lines of code.
So, take your moral judgements about who can and make it in a tech field, or what degree people "should" get and shove them up your incredibly tight asses.  I'm going to take my liberal arts degree, continue being a happily employed creative thinker, and use my skills to help create the better world I want without having to change who I am to do so.

As for the person who said that social workers are just screwed all around, I have 2 family members who have their master's degrees in social work.  One is employed, the other took a year off for her daughter and is now looking for work again.  Neither of them carries any debt for their degrees.  It depends entirely upon the person, not which degree they choose.  Most engineers I know carry more student loan debt than the liberal arts majors you guys love to hate on, and most of them aren't paying it off as quickly either.  I also don't know a single person with a liberal arts degree who A) isn't employed in a field they love and B) is unemployed/underemployed except by choice.  Who's smarter now?  The person working a bit longer at something they truly love, or the person who's wiling away their life in a cubicle and counting down the days?

SisterX - Right on Sister, please start posting more often! Student Loan Debt is definitely the poster child of regular beat downs by most of the MMM crowd. A lot of boorish and self righteous chest thumping. The world needs to be balanced by all of the academic degrees out there.

[prof61820]

Like when they tell me they have $100,000 in student loan debt and they have a liberal arts degree (ie they couldn't hack it getting a technical degree).  I mean wtf were you thinking that you racked up over 100k in debt with no game plan and no career prospects?  Do they not think more than a few months into the future?  Do they not understand math or finances? Do I really want to hire someone that makes those kinds of decisions?  Not only did they rack up 100k+ in debt with practically nothing to show for it, but they just wasted the last 4-5 years not being financially productive so it's a double whammy.

You're being really harsh here.  Thank a teacher for teaching you how to write these (frustrating) comments in the first place.  First, you're looking at this issue from the vantage point of an adult who's taught himself personal finance discipline.  Could you have been so rational and were you so judgmental at 18 years old? 

And as for not being able to "hack it" in a technical major - that's some elitist-geek nonsense.  I could have been a chemist, engineer, programmer if not for the fact that science bores me to tears.  My productivity in the world is directly related to not hating every waking moment of my career.  And like it or not, even engineers need to learn to string together a word or two to effectively communicate with each other.

I agree.  From my experience, the folks who have technical degrees and no liberal education or travel experience are the primary reason why history repeats itself.  This, you can imagine, is a gigantic cost to world.  Don't get me wrong, some of my best friends are engineers (he said with a wink), but they can drive me crazy.  It's been fun to watch the engineers work so hard try to do everything within the current financial system to make it work, operating under the assumption that nothing can ever change so at to not rock the political boat.  Liberal arts majors tend to focus on changing messed up systems and, at the same time, make some really dumb mathematical errors or engage in wishful thinking when it comes to our financial system.  It's been fun to watch the two collide here.  Be careful what you wish for because a world without liberal arts, will be a cold, boring, harsh, unimaginative and potentially unenlightened and dangerous world.

What a load of rubbish.  You get plenty of liberal education with a technical degree, but you also get the technical education.  If they really were so creative, imaginative, and smart maybe they would become engineers so they could become FI sooner and do more good in the world, or changing a messed up system, or whatever you like.  No one wants to eliminate liberal arts, but its a stupid path to down if your plan is to not rack up student loan debt and get a high paying job.

What the fuck is it with tech people assuming that their degree is better, or they're somehow smarter than those who get liberal arts degrees?  Seriously.  I have had to put up with getting shit about my lit degree since I graduated but you know what?  I carry zero debt for it and I think I'm a hell of a lot smarter for it.  You know why?  Because I learned to look at things more deeply and to look at things from multiple angles, rather than just learning a set of facts to memorize and being told, "This is how you think about this type of problem/situation.  This is how you should approach this sort of thing to get a solution.  Do X and Y happens!" 
As for the "usefulness" of liberal arts degrees, or how well they pay, mine is actually one of the most in-demand degrees (shocking!  I know!) because people don't know how to fucking write any more because "it's stupid".  I have also used it to be my family's breadwinner for the last 5 years, since graduating, because my husband got a "good" degree in biology and has had every single job he's worked at get closed down due to government budget cuts, grants running out, or the company flat out tanking in this economy.
It's not that I "can't hack it" in a technical degree (I got A's in logic, astronomy, biology, economics, ...) it's that I chose to follow my passions.  Pardon me for thinking that literature and music are just as fucking important as being able to type a few lines of code.
So, take your moral judgements about who can and make it in a tech field, or what degree people "should" get and shove them up your incredibly tight asses.  I'm going to take my liberal arts degree, continue being a happily employed creative thinker, and use my skills to help create the better world I want without having to change who I am to do so.

As for the person who said that social workers are just screwed all around, I have 2 family members who have their master's degrees in social work.  One is employed, the other took a year off for her daughter and is now looking for work again.  Neither of them carries any debt for their degrees.  It depends entirely upon the person, not which degree they choose.  Most engineers I know carry more student loan debt than the liberal arts majors you guys love to hate on, and most of them aren't paying it off as quickly either.  I also don't know a single person with a liberal arts degree who A) isn't employed in a field they love and B) is unemployed/underemployed except by choice.  Who's smarter now?  The person working a bit longer at something they truly love, or the person who's wiling away their life in a cubicle and counting down the days?

SisterX - You rock.  A very well written post.

[prof61820]

I'm sure there are some people who spend all their student loans on hookers and blow, but there are also people who genuinely did not even THINK about this shit because they were 17 and their parents (who also really had no money, but had the ability to take out Parent PLUS loans) and stupid "financial aid counselors" told them it was fine! everyone does it! duh, it's totally fine. I didn't spend a CRAAAAZY amount on booze and restaurants and nice apartments... I had roommates and I lived in old houses with mice and no air conditioning or cable, and I ate beans and rice and had potluck dinners with friends and drank shitty beer, and I fucking loved it! it was college! but I still ended up with $70k in loans because I went to a private school because I was fucking stupid, and everyone told me it was going to be okay. I got lucky and it actually was okay (will pay off my last loan next week, it took two years) but it could totally have gone the other way if I didn't end up with a great job, so I really feel for those people.

Public University tuition and room and board is crossing the $25,000 per year line in some states.  The average undergrad loan debt in 2012 was $29K.   This is life altering debt for many students and their families.  Student debt this large simply cannot be paid off by working minimum wage jobs (as it could in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and 80s).  The United States is creating a nation of well educated, underemployed debtors that will dramatically change the nation's economy and even impact our national defense (student loan debtors are having a lot less children).  So if you would like to sell your house to someone for a tidy profit one day, I suggest that you try to expand that pool of buyers rather than limit it.

[NoraLenderbee]

Sing it, SisterX.

[matchewed]

I'm sure there are some people who spend all their student loans on hookers and blow, but there are also people who genuinely did not even THINK about this shit because they were 17 and their parents (who also really had no money, but had the ability to take out Parent PLUS loans) and stupid "financial aid counselors" told them it was fine! everyone does it! duh, it's totally fine. I didn't spend a CRAAAAZY amount on booze and restaurants and nice apartments... I had roommates and I lived in old houses with mice and no air conditioning or cable, and I ate beans and rice and had potluck dinners with friends and drank shitty beer, and I fucking loved it! it was college! but I still ended up with $70k in loans because I went to a private school because I was fucking stupid, and everyone told me it was going to be okay. I got lucky and it actually was okay (will pay off my last loan next week, it took two years) but it could totally have gone the other way if I didn't end up with a great job, so I really feel for those people.

Public University tuition and room and board is crossing the $25,000 per year line in some states.  The average undergrad loan debt in 2012 was $29K.   This is life altering debt for many students and their families.  Student debt this large simply cannot be paid off by working minimum wage jobs (as it could in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and 80s).  The United States is creating a nation of well educated, underemployed debtors that will dramatically change the nation's economy and even impact our national defense (student loan debtors are having a lot less children).  So if you would like to sell your house to someone for a tidy profit one day, I suggest that you try to expand that pool of buyers rather than limit it.

See and that's the part from the other side I don't get. People are talking like 30k debt is some insurmountable mountain that buries the people who take it on. I just don't buy it. Plenty of people get jobs and pay off debt.

[iris lily]

Ugh, another one of these discussions?

Seriously can't anyone see that when we're bringing up the example of the person who just got the 100k photography degree that we're not even in a representative sample of the person who takes out loans anymore?

This running around and blowing up about hyperbolic examples skews the view of the discussion. So let's save all the youth bashing and liberal arts hating on one side and the pity party on the other side and realize it isn't a big deal. There are so few people with this level of debt that this is akin to screaming about the number of Hummers on the road today.

Time to wind up the outrage machine, hasn't had enough yet.

Well, I brought it up because there WAS an actual first time poster who posted on Sunday about his/her debt of $180,000, no means to pay it back, no job projects, in deep denial about real life.  At least I didn't post the Ramsey snippets on his/her thread, I thought that would be too personal attackish.

[randymarsh]

See and that's the part from the other side I don't get. People are talking like 30k debt is some insurmountable mountain that buries the people who take it on. I just don't buy it. Plenty of people get jobs and pay off debt.

I kind of agree. 30K is the price of a brand new Honda Accord and plenty of young college grads are driving those. :-/

I do wish/think it would be better if states/fed increased funding and colleges reduced their luxury dorm and administrative spending. Living in a boring cement dorm is fun when you're young! Rant: end the war on drugs and put the money into education/public health.

I also recognize that people with even average debts levels - ~25K are going to put off things like buying a house, having kids, etc. That's going to have an effect and I'm not positive it's a good one.

[prof61820]

I'm sure there are some people who spend all their student loans on hookers and blow, but there are also people who genuinely did not even THINK about this shit because they were 17 and their parents (who also really had no money, but had the ability to take out Parent PLUS loans) and stupid "financial aid counselors" told them it was fine! everyone does it! duh, it's totally fine. I didn't spend a CRAAAAZY amount on booze and restaurants and nice apartments... I had roommates and I lived in old houses with mice and no air conditioning or cable, and I ate beans and rice and had potluck dinners with friends and drank shitty beer, and I fucking loved it! it was college! but I still ended up with $70k in loans because I went to a private school because I was fucking stupid, and everyone told me it was going to be okay. I got lucky and it actually was okay (will pay off my last loan next week, it took two years) but it could totally have gone the other way if I didn't end up with a great job, so I really feel for those people.

Public University tuition and room and board is crossing the $25,000 per year line in some states.  The average undergrad loan debt in 2012 was $29K.   This is life altering debt for many students and their families.  Student debt this large simply cannot be paid off by working minimum wage jobs (as it could in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and 80s).  The United States is creating a nation of well educated, underemployed debtors that will dramatically change the nation's economy and even impact our national defense (student loan debtors are having a lot less children).  So if you would like to sell your house to someone for a tidy profit one day, I suggest that you try to expand that pool of buyers rather than limit it.

See and that's the part from the other side I don't get. People are talking like 30k debt is some insurmountable mountain that buries the people who take it on. I just don't buy it. Plenty of people get jobs and pay off debt.

It wouldn't be - if the minimum wage was $15-20 per hour.  Another problem with student loan debt is that you can't get rid of it - like other debt - if you get sick, have trouble finding work through no fault of your own or if you work in a field that pays less than you expected to earn.  If we treat student loan debt like regular debt by (a) not requiring parents to co-sign for loans and (b) allowing for student loan debt to be erased in a bankruptcy, it will be less plentiful to students and, at the same time, less access to loans is likely to help keep the cost of tuition down.  Without increases in the minimum wage, this debt can be crushing.

[matchewed]

See and that's the part from the other side I don't get. People are talking like 30k debt is some insurmountable mountain that buries the people who take it on. I just don't buy it. Plenty of people get jobs and pay off debt.

I kind of agree. 30K is the price of a brand new Honda Accord and plenty of young college grads are driving those. :-/

I do wish/think it would be better if states/fed increased funding and colleges reduced their luxury dorm and administrative spending. Living in a boring cement dorm is fun when you're young! Rant: end the war on drugs and put the money into education/public health.

I also recognize that people with even average debts levels - ~25K are going to put off things like buying a house, having kids, etc. That's going to have an effect and I'm not positive it's a good one.

Meh plenty of young people of generations past got around just fine without buying brand new McMansions and fancy cars before starting the family. I'd chalk most of this up to the twisted expectations our consumerist mentalities have lead us to. People's expectations of what to buy and afford have changed far more than their debt levels.

[matchewed]

I'm sure there are some people who spend all their student loans on hookers and blow, but there are also people who genuinely did not even THINK about this shit because they were 17 and their parents (who also really had no money, but had the ability to take out Parent PLUS loans) and stupid "financial aid counselors" told them it was fine! everyone does it! duh, it's totally fine. I didn't spend a CRAAAAZY amount on booze and restaurants and nice apartments... I had roommates and I lived in old houses with mice and no air conditioning or cable, and I ate beans and rice and had potluck dinners with friends and drank shitty beer, and I fucking loved it! it was college! but I still ended up with $70k in loans because I went to a private school because I was fucking stupid, and everyone told me it was going to be okay. I got lucky and it actually was okay (will pay off my last loan next week, it took two years) but it could totally have gone the other way if I didn't end up with a great job, so I really feel for those people.

Public University tuition and room and board is crossing the $25,000 per year line in some states.  The average undergrad loan debt in 2012 was $29K.   This is life altering debt for many students and their families.  Student debt this large simply cannot be paid off by working minimum wage jobs (as it could in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and 80s).  The United States is creating a nation of well educated, underemployed debtors that will dramatically change the nation's economy and even impact our national defense (student loan debtors are having a lot less children).  So if you would like to sell your house to someone for a tidy profit one day, I suggest that you try to expand that pool of buyers rather than limit it.

See and that's the part from the other side I don't get. People are talking like 30k debt is some insurmountable mountain that buries the people who take it on. I just don't buy it. Plenty of people get jobs and pay off debt.

It wouldn't be - if the minimum wage was $15-20 per hour.  Another problem with student loan debt is that you can't get rid of it - like other debt - if you get sick, have trouble finding work through no fault of your own or if you work in a field that pays less than you expected to earn.  If we treat student loan debt like regular debt by (a) not requiring parents to co-sign for loans and (b) allowing for student loan debt to be erased in a bankruptcy, it will be less plentiful to students and, at the same time, less access to loans is likely to help keep the cost of tuition down.  Without increases in the minimum wage, this debt can be crushing.

That's a poor assumption. You're putting that out there like every single college grad with 30k is making minimum wage. If you start off with bad assumptions like that then yes I can see how you'd think it's a problem.

[prof61820]

30K is the price of a brand new Honda Accord and plenty of young college grads are driving those. :-/

That sounds good until you understand that plenty of college grads had their parents pay their tuition, buy them a car and plunk a down payment on their starter home.   The loan debt issue is also fueling the disparity of wealth in this nation.

The system is a mess...and although you may be invested because you "engineered" your way out of the student debt problem, not everybody thinks this way - especially 17 year olds that want to obtain something besides a technical degree...not everyone engineers their way around problems or has parents that can help them make smart higher education decisions or parents who will cover tuition, room and board and help start them off in life financially.  Student loan debt needs to be looked at from multiple perspectives to be properly understood.  $29K for an undergrad degree in 2012 is a huge amount of money for a 17 year old with no guidance (or worse, poor guidance).  Student loan debt is a gigantic systemic problem.

[prof61820]

I'm sure there are some people who spend all their student loans on hookers and blow, but there are also people who genuinely did not even THINK about this shit because they were 17 and their parents (who also really had no money, but had the ability to take out Parent PLUS loans) and stupid "financial aid counselors" told them it was fine! everyone does it! duh, it's totally fine. I didn't spend a CRAAAAZY amount on booze and restaurants and nice apartments... I had roommates and I lived in old houses with mice and no air conditioning or cable, and I ate beans and rice and had potluck dinners with friends and drank shitty beer, and I fucking loved it! it was college! but I still ended up with $70k in loans because I went to a private school because I was fucking stupid, and everyone told me it was going to be okay. I got lucky and it actually was okay (will pay off my last loan next week, it took two years) but it could totally have gone the other way if I didn't end up with a great job, so I really feel for those people.

Public University tuition and room and board is crossing the $25,000 per year line in some states.  The average undergrad loan debt in 2012 was $29K.   This is life altering debt for many students and their families.  Student debt this large simply cannot be paid off by working minimum wage jobs (as it could in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and 80s).  The United States is creating a nation of well educated, underemployed debtors that will dramatically change the nation's economy and even impact our national defense (student loan debtors are having a lot less children).  So if you would like to sell your house to someone for a tidy profit one day, I suggest that you try to expand that pool of buyers rather than limit it.

See and that's the part from the other side I don't get. People are talking like 30k debt is some insurmountable mountain that buries the people who take it on. I just don't buy it. Plenty of people get jobs and pay off debt.

It wouldn't be - if the minimum wage was $15-20 per hour.  Another problem with student loan debt is that you can't get rid of it - like other debt - if you get sick, have trouble finding work through no fault of your own or if you work in a field that pays less than you expected to earn.  If we treat student loan debt like regular debt by (a) not requiring parents to co-sign for loans and (b) allowing for student loan debt to be erased in a bankruptcy, it will be less plentiful to students and, at the same time, less access to loans is likely to help keep the cost of tuition down.  Without increases in the minimum wage, this debt can be crushing.

That's a poor assumption. You're putting that out there like every single college grad with 30k is making minimum wage. If you start off with bad assumptions like that then yes I can see how you'd think it's a problem.

What's the assumption?

[matchewed]

I'm sure there are some people who spend all their student loans on hookers and blow, but there are also people who genuinely did not even THINK about this shit because they were 17 and their parents (who also really had no money, but had the ability to take out Parent PLUS loans) and stupid "financial aid counselors" told them it was fine! everyone does it! duh, it's totally fine. I didn't spend a CRAAAAZY amount on booze and restaurants and nice apartments... I had roommates and I lived in old houses with mice and no air conditioning or cable, and I ate beans and rice and had potluck dinners with friends and drank shitty beer, and I fucking loved it! it was college! but I still ended up with $70k in loans because I went to a private school because I was fucking stupid, and everyone told me it was going to be okay. I got lucky and it actually was okay (will pay off my last loan next week, it took two years) but it could totally have gone the other way if I didn't end up with a great job, so I really feel for those people.

Public University tuition and room and board is crossing the $25,000 per year line in some states.  The average undergrad loan debt in 2012 was $29K.   This is life altering debt for many students and their families.  Student debt this large simply cannot be paid off by working minimum wage jobs (as it could in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and 80s).  The United States is creating a nation of well educated, underemployed debtors that will dramatically change the nation's economy and even impact our national defense (student loan debtors are having a lot less children).  So if you would like to sell your house to someone for a tidy profit one day, I suggest that you try to expand that pool of buyers rather than limit it.

See and that's the part from the other side I don't get. People are talking like 30k debt is some insurmountable mountain that buries the people who take it on. I just don't buy it. Plenty of people get jobs and pay off debt.

It wouldn't be - if the minimum wage was $15-20 per hour.  Another problem with student loan debt is that you can't get rid of it - like other debt - if you get sick, have trouble finding work through no fault of your own or if you work in a field that pays less than you expected to earn.  If we treat student loan debt like regular debt by (a) not requiring parents to co-sign for loans and (b) allowing for student loan debt to be erased in a bankruptcy, it will be less plentiful to students and, at the same time, less access to loans is likely to help keep the cost of tuition down.  Without increases in the minimum wage, this debt can be crushing.

That's a poor assumption. You're putting that out there like every single college grad with 30k is making minimum wage. If you start off with bad assumptions like that then yes I can see how you'd think it's a problem.

What's the assumption?

That minimum wage is the problem. I fail to see the connection. Your post makes a tacit connection that current minimum wage is not enough to pay off loans. Therefore all people who have these loans must be making minimum wage.

[prof61820]

I'm sure there are some people who spend all their student loans on hookers and blow, but there are also people who genuinely did not even THINK about this shit because they were 17 and their parents (who also really had no money, but had the ability to take out Parent PLUS loans) and stupid "financial aid counselors" told them it was fine! everyone does it! duh, it's totally fine. I didn't spend a CRAAAAZY amount on booze and restaurants and nice apartments... I had roommates and I lived in old houses with mice and no air conditioning or cable, and I ate beans and rice and had potluck dinners with friends and drank shitty beer, and I fucking loved it! it was college! but I still ended up with $70k in loans because I went to a private school because I was fucking stupid, and everyone told me it was going to be okay. I got lucky and it actually was okay (will pay off my last loan next week, it took two years) but it could totally have gone the other way if I didn't end up with a great job, so I really feel for those people.

Public University tuition and room and board is crossing the $25,000 per year line in some states.  The average undergrad loan debt in 2012 was $29K.   This is life altering debt for many students and their families.  Student debt this large simply cannot be paid off by working minimum wage jobs (as it could in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and 80s).  The United States is creating a nation of well educated, underemployed debtors that will dramatically change the nation's economy and even impact our national defense (student loan debtors are having a lot less children).  So if you would like to sell your house to someone for a tidy profit one day, I suggest that you try to expand that pool of buyers rather than limit it.

See and that's the part from the other side I don't get. People are talking like 30k debt is some insurmountable mountain that buries the people who take it on. I just don't buy it. Plenty of people get jobs and pay off debt.

It wouldn't be - if the minimum wage was $15-20 per hour.  Another problem with student loan debt is that you can't get rid of it - like other debt - if you get sick, have trouble finding work through no fault of your own or if you work in a field that pays less than you expected to earn.  If we treat student loan debt like regular debt by (a) not requiring parents to co-sign for loans and (b) allowing for student loan debt to be erased in a bankruptcy, it will be less plentiful to students and, at the same time, less access to loans is likely to help keep the cost of tuition down.  Without increases in the minimum wage, this debt can be crushing.

That's a poor assumption. You're putting that out there like every single college grad with 30k is making minimum wage. If you start off with bad assumptions like that then yes I can see how you'd think it's a problem.

What's the assumption?

That minimum wage is the problem. I fail to see the connection. Your post makes a tacit connection that current minimum wage is not enough to pay off loans. Therefore all people who have these loans must be making minimum wage.

Thanks - minimum wage was high enough to pay off student loan debt for decades.  That has changed now.  Either tuition and room and board are too high or wages are too low.  This is the systemic problem - there's no safety net when the inevitable happens - people fail or make a mistake when they are 17.  It seems like the "technical" solution is don't fail.  That doesn't work for all.

[randymarsh]

30K is the price of a brand new Honda Accord and plenty of young college grads are driving those. :-/

That sounds good until you understand that plenty of college grads had their parents pay their tuition, buy them a car and plunk a down payment on their starter home.   The loan debt issue is also fueling the disparity of wealth in this nation.

The system is a mess...and although you may be invested because you "engineered" your way out of the student debt problem, not everybody thinks this way - especially 17 year olds that want to obtain something besides a technical degree...not everyone engineers their way around problems or has parents that can help them make smart higher education decisions or parents who will cover tuition, room and board and help start them off in life financially.  Student loan debt needs to be looked at from multiple perspectives to be properly understood.  $29K for an undergrad degree in 2012 is a huge amount of money for a $17 year old with no guidance (or worse, poor guidance) is a gigantic systemic problem.

I think many more grads have lots of student loans and are still buying expensive cars when they graduate. Then a few years later when they have a kid/want to buy a house, they'll complain "you just can't get ahead" these days. Students with rich parents writing checks are by definition a minority.

I haven't invested my way out of the SL problem. I owe 70K. I'll probably start my career earning ~45K. Enough to live on. But not much left over to save for a house or start investing. But I also recognize that I made certain choices. I could have gone to CC for a year or 2. I didn't have to study abroad. I could have lived at home longer. I didn't have to drink as much as I did. I chose majors I knew A) Would make me money (finance, then accounting & finance, and finally information systems) and B) I liked.

[matchewed]

So if minimum wage was higher then all these loans would be just fine? My view is that all these loans are just fine right now. There isn't a student loan crisis, defaults aren't at some crazy level, nor is the amount being borrowed. People on both sides of the issue are just hollering into the air.



If you look closely he's just screaming student loans.

[prof61820]

30K is the price of a brand new Honda Accord and plenty of young college grads are driving those. :-/

That sounds good until you understand that plenty of college grads had their parents pay their tuition, buy them a car and plunk a down payment on their starter home.   The loan debt issue is also fueling the disparity of wealth in this nation.

The system is a mess...and although you may be invested because you "engineered" your way out of the student debt problem, not everybody thinks this way - especially 17 year olds that want to obtain something besides a technical degree...not everyone engineers their way around problems or has parents that can help them make smart higher education decisions or parents who will cover tuition, room and board and help start them off in life financially.  Student loan debt needs to be looked at from multiple perspectives to be properly understood.  $29K for an undergrad degree in 2012 is a huge amount of money for a $17 year old with no guidance (or worse, poor guidance) is a gigantic systemic problem.

I think many more grads have lots of student loans and are still buying expensive cars when they graduate. Then a few years later when they have a kid/want to buy a house, they'll complain "you just can't get ahead" these days. Students with rich parents writing checks are by definition a minority.

I haven't invested my way out of the SL problem. I owe 70K. I'll probably start my career earning ~45K. Enough to live on. But not much left over to save for a house or start investing. But I also recognize that I made certain choices. I could have gone to CC for a year or 2. I didn't have to study abroad. I could have lived at home longer. I didn't have to drink as much as I did. I chose majors I knew A) Would make me money (finance, then accounting & finance, and finally information systems) and B) I liked.

Can you get a car loan with massive student loan debt and no job?

[prof61820]

So if minimum wage was higher then all these loans would be just fine?

Yes and no, it would be better because (a) you might be able to incur less debt by working DURING school (like how it used be in the olden days) and (b) if you don't get a job immediately in your field you could still earn enough so you don't have to defer payment on your debt (and have it compound the wrong way).  It wouldn't be better because $29K AVERAGE debt is way too high for a loan that your parents MUST co-sign for and a debt that you can't address should you have a problem that requires you to declare bankruptcy.

[Ian]

Well, it might be too late for this post, but here goes.

I don't understand, how do you not run the numbers?   You are going to attend somewhere for 4+ years, and you will need to live somewhere (unless you commute) and you will have to buy books and pay for tuition.  You have to pay for those with real dollars, and if you borrow them you have to pay them back.  So you are 18 years old and apparently smart enough to graduate high school and get accepted to a university, so why can't you do simple arithmetic?

What I'm saying is that people do run the numbers, but they're being fed inaccurate information. I've seen (and tried to dissuade) graduates who have actually done a lot of math, but it's not relevant when they're feeding in garbage numbers. College is a massive cultural institution that spends a lot of money promoting their numbers, creating studies, and so on. I think you're underestimating just how deep graduates would have to dig to find out that they've essentially been lied to, because there's been so much structural change in the humanities over the previous generation that looking at at the current job market (much less established people in your field) isn't a reliable indicator of what you could expect upon graduation. I'm not saying it's impossible to get through the misinformation, or that it would be a bad idea, just that I don't think we should expect high school graduates on average to have to do this level of research.

For what it's worth, I'm not disagreeing with your fundamental advice, what I dislike is the presumed moral superiority. There are deep structural problems leading people to take on so much debt and they won't be solved by sneering at anyone who didn't have all the information you did and want to be in a profitable field.

My first engineering classes started with about 400 students (that included all engineering disciplines).  By the time we graduated we only had about 12 in the chemical engineering course.   Way more than half of the people that originally started down the engineering path didn't make it.  You could watch it happen in real time.  Each difficult class more and more struggled and eventually dropped the class because it was too difficult.  Happened in organic chemistry, differential equations, thermodynamics, kinetics, etc.

Alright, that's your experience. I know some other engineers who had similar ones, which is why I didn't discount your opinion. What I'm wondering is if those people really all became liberal arts majors and transitioned to the group you despise so much.

[Spartana]

I know it's not for everyone but, I made it out of college debt free on the GI BIll.  I landed a career with the company I'm still working for.   Just 4 days after sending in a resume I was hired.  Due in large part to my military experience and I'm certain it didn't hurt, majoring in Microbiology.  I made 120k last year, not bad and I never once had a student loan.  There are options out there.

This is what I did too - although I made a lot less money then you did. Worked nearly full time while in school as well in a professional job using my military skills. Graduated not only debt free but with a bit of change in the savings account too. Ended up staying at the same job for years.

[prof61820]

I know it's not for everyone but, I made it out of college debt free on the GI BIll.  I landed a career with the company I'm still working for.   Just 4 days after sending in a resume I was hired.  Due in large part to my military experience and I'm certain it didn't hurt, majoring in Microbiology.  I made 120k last year, not bad and I never once had a student loan.  There are options out there.

This is what I did too - although I made a lot less money then you did. Worked nearly full time while in school as well in a professional job using my military skills. Graduated not only debt free but with a bit of change in the savings account too. Ended up staying at the same job for years.

I did this as well.  I graduated debt free with a liberal arts degree.  It made it possible for me to feel comfortable borrowing for law school and studying liberal arts was a great preparation for studying law.  My military experience/discipline dramatically improved my grades - which led to a very high starting salary out law school.  It still took me 18 years to pay off the student loans.  This was mostly my fault for not tackling it sooner (the Army also gave me the travel bug) but I'm the first in my family to attend college and had no financial support and very minimal financial guidance from my parents along the way.  Once I educated myself on debt and retirement security matters, I paid my student loans off in 2 years...this occurred in my late thirties, however...if I had gotten sick or had some bad luck in my career, my debt would have been a real problem.

I agree that the military is not for everyone.  It would be great to have a non-military form of government service as well that would provide a benefit akin to the GI Bill.

[Spartana]

I know it's not for everyone but, I made it out of college debt free on the GI BIll.  I landed a career with the company I'm still working for.   Just 4 days after sending in a resume I was hired.  Due in large part to my military experience and I'm certain it didn't hurt, majoring in Microbiology.  I made 120k last year, not bad and I never once had a student loan.  There are options out there.

This is what I did too - although I made a lot less money then you did. Worked nearly full time while in school as well in a professional job using my military skills. Graduated not only debt free but with a bit of change in the savings account too. Ended up staying at the same job for years.

I did this as well.  I graduated debt free with a liberal arts degree.  It made it possible for me to feel comfortable borrowing for law school and studying liberal arts was a great preparation for studying law.  My military experience/discipline dramatically improved my grades - which led to a very high starting salary out law school.  It still took me 18 years to pay off the student loans.  This was mostly my fault for not tackling it sooner (the Army also gave me the travel bug) but I'm the first in my family to attend college and had no financial support and very minimal financial guidance from my parents along the way.  Once I educated myself on debt and retirement security matters, I paid them off in 2 years...this occurred in my late thirties, however...if I had gotten sick or had some bad luck in my career my debt would have been a real problem.

I agree that the military is not for everyone.  It would be great to have a non-military form of government service as well that would provide a benefit akin to the GI Bill.

I agree but I don't know if too many people would be interested in working several years (say 4) at a full time tough lower income job in order to get a fairly small stipend to pay for college at a later time. Seems delaying gratification isn't something most want to do. Especially if the amount they get would probably only cover tuition at aa state school (or a very low cost private college). It's still fairly low cost to attend a CSU today (where I went) so I admit I have trouble understanding the drive to get into student loan debt. Here's the current cost (minus books and housing of course). And doing a 2 year stint at a community college before university is a good inexpensive way to go also (I also did this).

All students enrolling at the CSU pay the systemwide Tuition Fee which is currently $5,472 per academic year for undergraduate students enrolling in more than 6 units per term and $3,174 for undergraduates enrolling in 6 or fewer units. The 2013-14 Tuition Fee for students enrolled in postbaccalaureate teacher preparations programs for a Multiple Subject, Single Subject, or Special Education credential is $6,348 for students enrolled in more than 6 units and $3,684 for students taking 6 units or less. Students enrolled in graduate programs and other postbaccalaureate students pay a Tuition Fee of $6,738 for more than 6 units and $3,906 for those enrolling in 6 or fewer units

[arebelspy]

MOD NOTE:  Thread getting locked due to comments like this:

shove them up your incredibly tight asses

can you people not fathom a fucking middle ground for ANYTHING?!?

Next time please worry less about which fancy degree you have, and more about just being a kind person*.

*Not directed at any one poster, there are multiple posts that were inexcusably and unnecessarily rude.

You all are better than this.  Cheers!