Buying a new EV in 2022

[EchoStache]

@MoneyTree I looked at the Kona last year.  The backseat is definitely a little small.  I'm 5'5", and I had a few inches of leg room with the front seat adjusted for my height.  You'd be able to fit car seats width-wise, but if your kids get tall it's going to be tight.

Thanks for this input. Yeah from everything I've read, the Kia Niro EV looks like it would be a better choice as far a backseat space is concerned. Even considering the Kia EV6.

Take a look at the 2023 Niro EV. Pretty nice redesign (IMO), a bit roomier, slightly more range, and more “tested” range than the much more expensive EV6 or Ioniq 5. Rear leg room is good

[EchoStache]

I'm going to have to test drive the Bolt.  Downsides are slow "fast" charging and no heat pump.  Upside is crazy good pricing with decent looks and decent range(if not cold out)

[chaskavitch]

@MoneyTree I looked at the Kona last year.  The backseat is definitely a little small.  I'm 5'5", and I had a few inches of leg room with the front seat adjusted for my height.  You'd be able to fit car seats width-wise, but if your kids get tall it's going to be tight.

Thanks for this input. Yeah from everything I've read, the Kia Niro EV looks like it would be a better choice as far a backseat space is concerned. Even considering the Kia EV6.

I got the Niro and I'm happy with it.  My only complaint is that it's not a Golf :) 

[kenmoremmm]

i have a 2017 bolt. bought used last summer for $19k. got the new batteries this year, so basically a new car.

only maintenance in 1 year is adding washer fluid and replacing a wiper.

for charging, you can buy this (or similar) to take advantage of tesla destination chargers (different than superchargers): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08T8YG63J

i'm in canada and in the dead of winter, where it was -30C for a week, the range dropped to 135km, and that was probably optimistic. still charged with the 120v trickle charger and had no issues.

handled the snow great except for a few occasions where it was too deep and too steep.

i love the car. i'm sure there are now others that a better, especially with charging speeds, but getting out of the car every 3-4 hours for a 45 minute charge up isn't the end of the world, especially if you have young kids.

i will never buy an ICE again. once our subaru dies in 10 years, i can totally see an EV truck.

[EchoStache]

7,000 mile update on the 2022 Kia Niro EV.  First 6,000 miles or so was mostly 70mph+ interstate with a lot of cold weather driving.  AVG efficiency was hovering at 3.5 miles/kWh, or 28.6kWh/100 miles.  Now that we are doing mostly <65 mph driving and warmer weather, we are averaging closer to 4+ miles/kWh or 25 kWh/100 miles.  Lifetime average has increased to 3.6.

[RWD]

7,000 mile update on the 2022 Kia Niro EV.  First 6,000 miles or so was mostly 70mph+ interstate with a lot of cold weather driving.  AVG efficiency was hovering at 3.5 miles/kWh, or 28.6kWh/100 miles.  Now that we are doing mostly <65 mph driving and warmer weather, we are averaging closer to 4+ miles/kWh or 25 kWh/100 miles.  Lifetime average has increased to 3.6.

That's really good. Our Polestar 2 is nowhere near that, so far averaged 37.6 kWh/100 miles (mostly city).

[Abe]

7,000 mile update on the 2022 Kia Niro EV.  First 6,000 miles or so was mostly 70mph+ interstate with a lot of cold weather driving.  AVG efficiency was hovering at 3.5 miles/kWh, or 28.6kWh/100 miles.  Now that we are doing mostly <65 mph driving and warmer weather, we are averaging closer to 4+ miles/kWh or 25 kWh/100 miles.  Lifetime average has increased to 3.6.

That's really good. Our Polestar 2 is nowhere near that, so far averaged 37.6 kWh/100 miles (mostly city).

Another datapoint - My ID4 has been getting average of 3.2 miles/kWh on mostly highway and with the AC on.

[bill1827]

Are those consumption values as reported by the vehicle (which is likely to be the d.c. energy supplied from the battery) or calculated from the energy supplied to the car? There will be a difference, which can be significant, especially if the charger is AC.

My car is showing 5.5m/kWh, but the actual energy used is more like 4.5m/kWh, although I haven't done enough miles to measure it accurately.

[RWD]

Are those consumption values as reported by the vehicle (which is likely to be the d.c. energy supplied from the battery) or calculated from the energy supplied to the car? There will be a difference, which can be significant, especially if the charger is AC.

My car is showing 5.5m/kWh, but the actual energy used is more like 4.5m/kWh, although I haven't done enough miles to measure it accurately.

I've been going off the percentage of battery used. Though since it only shows me whole percents there are some inaccuracies due to rounding. Of course the actual amount of energy required is a little higher due to charging losses.

[chaskavitch]

Y'all are way more on top of tracking than I am, haha.

The Niro gets much better mileage in the spring and fall than in the winter, but summer seems to be going well so long as I don't use the AC.  According to my car, I'm at about 4.8m/kWh for this charge (~65 miles driven so far).  Winter is closer to 3.2m/kWh, and I've seen it as high as 5.1m/kWh in the shoulder seasons.  I do a lot of rural/city driving, so 30-55 mph, with a few stop signs or stop lights on the way. 

I'm also a fairly conservative driver, and I'm definitely into using my heated seats or opening windows vs. turning on the climate control because I want to see how much I can eke out of each charge :)

[Abe]

Are those consumption values as reported by the vehicle (which is likely to be the d.c. energy supplied from the battery) or calculated from the energy supplied to the car? There will be a difference, which can be significant, especially if the charger is AC.

My car is showing 5.5m/kWh, but the actual energy used is more like 4.5m/kWh, although I haven't done enough miles to measure it accurately.

Mine is from the car.

[AccidentialMustache]

I'm also a fairly conservative driver, and I'm definitely into using my heated seats or opening windows vs. turning on the climate control because I want to see how much I can eke out of each charge :)

Seats yes, windows no -- at least at highway speeds, the A/C (direct increased power demand) is more efficient than open windows are (increased drag) as long as your car has a fairly good drag profile... and EVs generally do, because low drag = longer range. Most EVs have less drag than the corolla that Oak Ridge was testing.

Ref: https://www.motortrend.com/news/myth-buster-save-fuel-with-ac-on-or-windows-down-389831

Drag coefficients: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient#:~:text=The%20average%20modern%20automobile%20achieves,of%20body%20of%20the%20vehicle.

[EchoStache]

After a few months of ownership, I finally have my level 2 home charger installed.  Amazingly convenient to come home every night and plug in.  Never have to stop for gas.  Never have to stop and charge anywhere.  The reason it took a while is that we were moving soon.  Just closed on our hew home last week and had the charger installed a few days before closing.  I think I got a heck of a good deal.  I had the electrician run 50 amp service, and he had to run it the maximum length possible due to the location of the breaker panel and garage on opposite ends of the house.  Despite the long run and the higher cost of 50 amp material, the bill was, IMO, a VERY reasonable $350.

For anyone that might be interested, I went with a Grizzle (dumb)charger.  In part because I feel really good about the quality of the unit, superbly high quality engineering(by visual appearance), very heavy duty charging cable, and adjustable charging from 16-40 amps.  The lack of smart capability will hopefully result in a simpler, longer lasting product.  I set the unit to 40 amps, which should charge at just under 10Kw, but my car is limited to 7.2Kw. I'm getting 7.5-7.6 so that's fine by me.  If I end up with another EV, I figured the 50 amp service with faster charging was negligibly higher cost while offering the fastest possible level 2 charging.  Some chargers are capable of 50 amp if the vehicle will support it but this would have added even more to the cost and not many cars can charge faster than 10Kw. 

Next step is to check on my electric rate, which I *think* is 0.13/kWh, then get estimates for solar.

[AccidentialMustache]

On the down side, even Grizzl-e have quality problems. On the plus side, getting a RMA is no big deal. My RMA unit just cleared customs...

Not that I have the EV to charge. That's... at the dealer. Getting software updated. In theory.

[EchoStache]

Mustang?

[joe189man]

7,000 mile update on the 2022 Kia Niro EV.  First 6,000 miles or so was mostly 70mph+ interstate with a lot of cold weather driving.  AVG efficiency was hovering at 3.5 miles/kWh, or 28.6kWh/100 miles.  Now that we are doing mostly <65 mph driving and warmer weather, we are averaging closer to 4+ miles/kWh or 25 kWh/100 miles.  Lifetime average has increased to 3.6.

That's really good. Our Polestar 2 is nowhere near that, so far averaged 37.6 kWh/100 miles (mostly city).

If my math is right, isn't this ~2.66 miles per kWh i think the Ford Lightning gets ~2 miles per kWh, Tesla model 3 AWD long range gets ~3.8 miles /kWh

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=45011&id=44449&id=44445&id=45317

which i guess doesn't really matter if you are paying 15 cents per kWh or less at home but at a fast charger its like 40 cents plus which really hurts the economics, still cheaper than gas/diesel but still

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3IRRoqgrvA this is a fun video, the compare 3 trucks to a lightning over a 164 mile driving course,  scroll to near the end to see a comparison chart for the 4 trucks the ford lightning is still the cheapest to fuel up but took a hour to charge. surprisingly the diesel truck was only $6.61 more expensive over this comparison @ a $5.20/ gal price, if Diesel cost $4.11 or less it would be equal to or a less expensive option

[GAndStache]

Just to give a UK perspective to this thread - I have a 2018 Nissan Leaf and electricity suppliers here offer an attractive tariff to EV owners where my electricity rate goes down to £0.05 / kWh between midnight and 4am. This makes my full charge cost £1.80 which gives me 150 miles or so - not far off £0.01/mile. Pretty unbeatably low motoring costs IMO (one of the biggest ways of protecting against inflation right now too...).

[RWD]

7,000 mile update on the 2022 Kia Niro EV.  First 6,000 miles or so was mostly 70mph+ interstate with a lot of cold weather driving.  AVG efficiency was hovering at 3.5 miles/kWh, or 28.6kWh/100 miles.  Now that we are doing mostly <65 mph driving and warmer weather, we are averaging closer to 4+ miles/kWh or 25 kWh/100 miles.  Lifetime average has increased to 3.6.

That's really good. Our Polestar 2 is nowhere near that, so far averaged 37.6 kWh/100 miles (mostly city).

If my math is right, isn't this ~2.66 miles per kWh i think the Ford Lightning gets ~2 miles per kWh, Tesla model 3 AWD long range gets ~3.8 miles /kWh

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=45011&id=44449&id=44445&id=45317

which i guess doesn't really matter if you are paying 15 cents per kWh or less at home but at a fast charger its like 40 cents plus which really hurts the economics, still cheaper than gas/diesel but still

Looks correct to me. Yeah, the Polestar was far from the most efficient option. But we didn't buy it to save money. Over the last six years with gas cars fuel has been less than 7% of our vehicle expenses.

We get two years of free (mostly) Electrify America charging with our EV, so DCFC costs are not an immediate concern for us either.

[EchoStache]

Just to give a UK perspective to this thread - I have a 2018 Nissan Leaf and electricity suppliers here offer an attractive tariff to EV owners where my electricity rate goes down to £0.05 / kWh between midnight and 4am. This makes my full charge cost £1.80 which gives me 150 miles or so - not far off £0.01/mile. Pretty unbeatably low motoring costs IMO (one of the biggest ways of protecting against inflation right now too...).

Wow, this is amazing!

[AccidentialMustache]

Mustang?

Yes, of course. The Mach-E forums are full of folks having similar issues, where dealers can't manage to update their car. And then there's the whole new "if you actually use your car it could die while parked... or at 70 on the highway" recall debacle.

We're probably in the market for a different EV. EV6 or Ioniq 5. We need to do some test drives. I'm penciling out math and I think we could turn a "profit" by getting rid of the MME (be that sale or lemon law) and buying one of those two thanks to the crazy used car market and the federal tax credit. It's stupid but I don't make the rules.

The trick is snagging a new one successfully and with no adm, but I'm betting we can make that fly. We did with the MME, off a dealer lot last year, so we have had success before.

It is too bad. MME is a great car, except for the service experience and broken OTAs (thus requiring more service).

[bill1827]

Just to give a UK perspective to this thread - I have a 2018 Nissan Leaf and electricity suppliers here offer an attractive tariff to EV owners where my electricity rate goes down to £0.05 / kWh between midnight and 4am. This makes my full charge cost £1.80 which gives me 150 miles or so - not far off £0.01/mile. Pretty unbeatably low motoring costs IMO (one of the biggest ways of protecting against inflation right now too...).

A nice rose tinted view.

Dual rate tariffs always charge more for daytime rates, so the electrical energy you use during the other 20 hours a day will cost likely 15-20% more than a standard tariff, this may or may not be important depending on your energy use.

The best EV tariff is now 7.5p per unit, so you would pay £2.10 for the most you could use in that period (28kWh), c. 2p per mile with the most efficient EV. Of course if you get your timing wrong you'll end up paying 35p or so per unit.

I haven't paid anything to charge my car yet as I have a very large PV array and generate enough energy to charge the car. That will fail in the winter of course and the capital cost of the installation was very large.

Then if you have to charge at a public fast charger the cost will be 15p or more per mile as the rates are eye wateringly high in the UK.

Electricity rates are almost certain to rise by 30-40% this autumn and your low rate will go up with all the others at the end of your fixed term contract, so inflation will not be avoided.

[GAndStache]

Just to give a UK perspective to this thread - I have a 2018 Nissan Leaf and electricity suppliers here offer an attractive tariff to EV owners where my electricity rate goes down to £0.05 / kWh between midnight and 4am. This makes my full charge cost £1.80 which gives me 150 miles or so - not far off £0.01/mile. Pretty unbeatably low motoring costs IMO (one of the biggest ways of protecting against inflation right now too...).

A nice rose tinted view.

Dual rate tariffs always charge more for daytime rates, so the electrical energy you use during the other 20 hours a day will cost likely 15-20% more than a standard tariff, this may or may not be important depending on your energy use.

The best EV tariff is now 7.5p per unit, so you would pay £2.10 for the most you could use in that period (28kWh), c. 2p per mile with the most efficient EV. Of course if you get your timing wrong you'll end up paying 35p or so per unit.

I haven't paid anything to charge my car yet as I have a very large PV array and generate enough energy to charge the car. That will fail in the winter of course and the capital cost of the installation was very large.

Then if you have to charge at a public fast charger the cost will be 15p or more per mile as the rates are eye wateringly high in the UK.

Electricity rates are almost certain to rise by 30-40% this autumn and your low rate will go up with all the others at the end of your fixed term contract, so inflation will not be avoided.

Good point about the additional day time charge, it’s good to clarify that.

Remember though, the electricity from the solar panels isn’t free  once you’ve considered the cost of the panels. And most people can’t charge their cars from their solar panels because they use the car during the day.

The cost of electricity could increase in cost significantly and an EV would still be a great inflation hedge as the charging is such a small proportion of the overall motoring cost. This is dominated by the purchase of the vehicle itself - the price of which can’t go up with inflation once you’ve bought it. I can handle the cost to charge my car going up 100% to £2.50, I’d be much more annoyed if the price to fill up my car with petrol went up 20% from £100…

[rocketpj]

We have a 2020 Kia Niro that we bought 'new' in 2021, almost exactly one year ago.  I love the thing.

In our case (BC, Canada) we got $3k from the province and $5k from the federal government towards the car.  We also scrapped our elderly Impala (perpetually breaking down gas sucking monster), which at the time provided a $6k payout from the province.  So $14k off the top.  The dealer offer at the time was 0% interest, so I extended the loan out to 8 years (because duh!). 

I love the 10 year warranty, which covers everything including scratches and torn upholstery.  Near zero maintenance (annual servicing) and we are saving easily $1k/year in maintenance and repairs compared to Vlad (the Impala).

Fuel here in my town is C$2.28/litre, which in US terms is C$8.63/gallon, or $6.69 USD.  So I am quite happy to drive past the gas station.

Our neighbourhood has a few 'free' charging stations, and we often just plug into the house.  The only time it's an issue is when we have a weekend away that includes a fair bit of driving, and then we just have to plan for it.  Usually there is a Level 3 fast charger somewhere that I can go to.  A couple of months ago we were in the city for a full weekend spreading our time between 2 kids hockey tournaments.  I found a level 3 charger that had a pub across the street.  45 minutes, a chapter of my book and a pint of beer later we were fully charged.

[AdrianC]

2023 Chevy Bolt will be $26,595 without any rebate.

Might be my next car!

We bought a new Bolt in May 2021, $24k plus tax. Would do it again despite the battery fire issues they’ve had.  Ours has been great. 19k miles now. 4.8m/kWh in summer, 3 ish in winter.

Rotated the tires once. Took it in for a software update (older tech - no over the air updates).

Very useful car, hatchback can get my road bike in with rear seats down. Bought a cheap hitch for bike rack. It’s fun to drive too. I sold my GTI to Carvana to get the Bolt. I prefer the Bolt (maybe I’m getting old).

Has dc “fast” charging but we’ve never used it. Always charge at home on level 2. It’s not a good road trip car and we didn’t buy it thinking it was, so we aren’t disappointed with charging speed.

Seriously thinking about getting a 2023 EUV and letting the kid have the Bolt, but will wait to see if the mythical $30k Equinox really happens.

[EchoStache]

The Inflation Reduction Act(but, is there anything in the bill to actually reduce inflation???) will reduce the cost of a new(base model) Chevy Bolt to about $19,100.  In my case, $18,350 due to state rebate.  A brand new 259 mile range EV.....I can't imagine a better value in a new car unless someone is taking cross country road trips weekly.

I won't need a 2nd vehicle until at least next March but dang....that seems like a great deal.

[kenmoremmm]

we love our 2017 bolt. bought used for about $19k last year. new battery installed. just completed a 2200 km road trip through BC and WA/ID and it was great. sparse charging on i-90, somehow...

[ChpBstrd]

The Inflation Reduction Act(but, is there anything in the bill to actually reduce inflation???) will reduce the cost of a new(base model) Chevy Bolt to about $19,100.  In my case, $18,350 due to state rebate.

It seems to be reducing prices for certain new cars.

[TomTX]

I looked at the Bolt, Model 3, Leaf, and various Hyundai/Kia models on https://www.edmunds.com/tco.html to get a picture of the 5 year cost of ownership.

Interestingly, most of the BEVs out there are far less economical to own their their more mechanically complex, gas-guzzling competitors. The Chevy Bolt costs thousands more to own than a similar ICE car like the Civic or Corolla.

You should probably look at current prices. The 2023 Bolt starts at under $26k. 2023 Corolla starts at $21k.

After the new $7500 rebate refresh, Bolt would be $19k vs Corolla $21k.

[TomTX]

Some Teslas are starting to use heat pumps but I'm not sure which ones do and don't. 

All Tesla cars sold today come with heat pumps. The Model 3/Y is actually on their second generation of heat pump.

[stoaX]

I looked at the Bolt, Model 3, Leaf, and various Hyundai/Kia models on https://www.edmunds.com/tco.html to get a picture of the 5 year cost of ownership.

Interestingly, most of the BEVs out there are far less economical to own their their more mechanically complex, gas-guzzling competitors. The Chevy Bolt costs thousands more to own than a similar ICE car like the Civic or Corolla.

You should probably look at current prices. The 2023 Bolt starts at under $26k. 2023 Corolla starts at $21k.

After the new $7500 rebate refresh, Bolt would be $19k vs Corolla $21k.

But will it be eligible for a federal rebate anytime soon?   The new bill places enough restrictions on EV that it may be a while before the manufacturers are in compliance.  The Insider website reported on this saying:

 "Of the 72 electric, hybrid, and hydrogen vehicles on the US market, 70% would immediately become ineligible for credits when the bill passes, according to the Alliance for Automotive Innovation, a trade group.

No current models would qualify once additional restrictions are enforced, the group of automakers said, noting the program is far too onerous to have its desired effect.

"The $7,500 credit might exist on paper, but no vehicles will qualify for this purchase incentive over the next few years," John Bozella, the organization's president, said in a statement."

Reuters and CNBC also reported on this. 

[nessness]

@MoneyTree I looked at the Kona last year.  The backseat is definitely a little small.  I'm 5'5", and I had a few inches of leg room with the front seat adjusted for my height.  You'd be able to fit car seats width-wise, but if your kids get tall it's going to be tight.

Thanks for this input. Yeah from everything I've read, the Kia Niro EV looks like it would be a better choice as far a backseat space is concerned. Even considering the Kia EV6.

My husband has a Kia Niro EV loaner while his car is being fixed, and it's pretty nice. We have one kid in a booster and one in a forward-facing car seat and there's plenty of room.

I recently bought a Chevy Bolt EUV and I'm really happy with it so far. It's a similar size to the Niro. I looked at the Kia EV6 before I bought the Chevy but they were charging $16k over MSRP for it, which...no. But a big advantage of the EV6 (and Hyundai Ioniq 5) is that they charge really fast, which would be really helpful for road trips.

[bryan995]

Exactly right - and most places are charging FAR above MSRP for these vehicles.  The starting at XX,XXX is really just at teaser. It’s for a config that the manufacturer allocates 0.5% of vehicles to. You likely won’t be able to buy that config and then will end up paying far more in practice for the vehicle. 


For the few cars that may qualify, they all either exceed the vehicle MSRP limits (60k/80k) or potential buyers exceed the income requirements (150k/300k).
The EV potion seems to be a bill for no-one - designed to simply provide some nice talking points?

I am working to sneak in one final EV purchase this year before the income limits take hold.

[TomTX]

I looked at the Bolt, Model 3, Leaf, and various Hyundai/Kia models on https://www.edmunds.com/tco.html to get a picture of the 5 year cost of ownership.

Interestingly, most of the BEVs out there are far less economical to own their their more mechanically complex, gas-guzzling competitors. The Chevy Bolt costs thousands more to own than a similar ICE car like the Civic or Corolla.

You should probably look at current prices. The 2023 Bolt starts at under $26k. 2023 Corolla starts at $21k.

After the new $7500 rebate refresh, Bolt would be $19k vs Corolla $21k.

But will it be eligible for a federal rebate anytime soon?   The new bill places enough restrictions on EV that it may be a while before the manufacturers are in compliance.  The Insider website reported on this saying:

 "Of the 72 electric, hybrid, and hydrogen vehicles on the US market, 70% would immediately become ineligible for credits when the bill passes, according to the Alliance for Automotive Innovation, a trade group.

No current models would qualify once additional restrictions are enforced, the group of automakers said, noting the program is far too onerous to have its desired effect.

"The $7,500 credit might exist on paper, but no vehicles will qualify for this purchase incentive over the next few years," John Bozella, the organization's president, said in a statement."

Reuters and CNBC also reported on this.

I think the original claimant is full of it, and ignorant reporters are just reposting a garbage analysis.

As far as I can tell the only requirement which kicks in immediately is the "assembled in North America" one. The others start in 2023 and are geographically less strict (any country with a free trade agreement qualifies.)

https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements

Of note on that list: Chile produces lots of lithium. Canada and Australia are the #4 and #5 nickel producers in the world. The US and Canada have plenty of graphite. The US still produces plenty of aluminum and steel (for the battery pack shell and cooling system).

I know Tesla has been prioritizing sourcing battery raw materials from North America for many years - at least the batteries which go into the Model 3 and Model Y (which means ~95% of all cars the sell). Model S and X are too expensive to get the credit anyway, so it doesn't matter the cells come from Osaka.

Anyway, I don't know how anyone outside Tesla can substantively claim that Tesla Model 3 and Y won't qualify. I would be surprised if they don't source the majority of the raw materials in a way that qualifies.

Another misleading claim there is that "70% of models won't qualify" - okay, but Model 3 + Y have about 65% of the EV market in the USA. The others are fighting for scraps. Ford and GM are both having batteries produced in the USA and free trade countries (notably Korea) - and there are something like 25 large lithium battery plants under development in the USA

[lifeisshort123]

I strongly support the Made in America rules.  I guarantee companies will work to rearrange their supply chains to get these credits.  As soon as one or two make the investment, the rest will quickly follow.  The best investment we can make as a country is in the American people, and encourage them to support each other while we are supporting meaningful change to gas and oil consumption.

[Abe]

I think those restrictions are good for uS energy security, but will be struck down in WTO lawsuits. At least the recycling one is not in compliance, the free-trade agreement ones will probably get a pass unless China sues (likely)