Buying a new EV in 2022

[EchoStache]

Thought this might be an interesting topic for some.  Wife and I bought a 2022 Kia Niro EV in March.

MSRP $42,815

Financed $45,700 @0.9% interest for 60 months, cuz almost free money.  So far have put $20,000 of the money I would have paid towards the Kia into Ibonds.  So Kia is paying me 7.5% interest on the money we used to buy the car :). I may do another $20k(as gifts).

We paid MSRP with no argument or discussion, and dealer fees were very low, I think $399 for processing fee.  I didn't quibble or argue about this as I felt good about the dealer charging MSRP with no additional markup.

Federal tax rebate $7500. State tax rebate $750.  This lowers the cost to $37,450. 

They offered $10,500 for my  93,000 mile trade in, which I declined and instead sold it private party for $14,000.  So net cost becomes $23,450.  I also feel comfortable factoring in new tires I would have needed this fall for $600, two oil changes this year, and timing belt replacement next year based on the miles I drive.  This totals another roughly $2,000 in guaranteed maintenance costs in the very near future.  So $21,450 spent over and above keeping my old car.  In exchange I have 10 year warranty, no fuel cost(kinda, almost), near zero maintenance cost.

I have averaged 3.4miles/kWh in the 2500 miles we have driven the car.  For 100% home charging, that's .10c to drive 3.4 miles.  Scaling up for a better comparison with fuel cost, we spend $1 in electricity to drive 34 miles.  For less than the cost of a gallon of gas($4), we drive 136 miles.

We have gotten lucky and found a free level two charger close to where we are staying as traveling healthcare workers.  Our *actual* cost for the 2500 miles we have driven for charging is about $35.

Tesla was not the slightest consideration, not a snowballs chance in hell, as this would have added at least $20,000 to the cost which IMO would be a pure luxury spend.  The base model Tesla model 3 has less range than our much cheaper car.  We both somewhat despise the giant flat screen TV design common in many EV's.  We also prefer to have some normal buttons to push to control normal functions without having to study a computer screen and navigate through menus while driving.  Also, we were able to drive to the local dealer and buy our EV on the spot after test driving. Not an option with Tesla and I'm not sure how many months the wait would be.

The $21,000 net cost might not have been the absolutely most frugal and mustachian route, but given that we unavoidably drive a lot due to our jobs, and are often far from home, a low cost hybrid beater wasn't a good option for us.  Given the high fuel costs in the current market, I do feel like the 5 year cost is *somewhat* similar between the EV vs keeping my old car.  $250/$300/month in fuel plus oil changes/maintenance over 5 years starts getting pretty close to the $21,000 we spent on the EV.

The other "logic" I used to help financially justify the purchase is that I would like to go solar with the next house we purchase.  This helps financially justify both decisions i.e. solar cost  and EV cost.

An important consideration for anyone in the market for an EV is cold weather driving.  Kia and Hyundai both have a well optimized heat pump system in their EV's.  This has a significant impact on range during cold weather.  Kia/Hyundai seem to fare much better than other EV's due to this tech.  The cold weather package was only an $1100 cost(included in the MSRP of our Niro).  Some Teslas are starting to use heat pumps but I'm not sure which ones do and don't.  I also have the feeling that Kia/Hyundai is perhaps more well developed and effective than others.

I welcome any discussion or questions anyone might have.  Face punches are also allowed for having splurged on a brand new car. :)

[Focus_on_the_fire]

Face punch or not, thank you! :)

I'm really interested in going EV and your post has all the details a mustachian like me LOVES to know.

The issue that's concerned me is the availability of charging stations while traveling. You mentioned you found one nearby where you were working, but does the notion of not being able to find one concern you, particularly with a 239 mile range?

[EchoStache]

The charging station network for non-Tesla EV's is not nearly as good as the Tesla infrastructure.  We briefly researched charging stations to make sure we would be able to commute the 200 miles back and forth between our assignment and home on the weekends.  We travel from York PA to Uniontown PA but drop down into Maryland and WV to do so.  There are several DC fast chargers to choose from along the route despite it being fairly rural without many "big" cities.  We stop in Hagerstown Maryland to charge every time.  Works perfect as we are ready to eat at that point.  We pack sandwiches, eat dinner, and take a restroom break while charging.  Car is charged up and ready to go by the time we are. 

You can't be as care free as you can in an ICE car.  You have to research the route for long drives.  Also be prepared for a station to be out of order....i.e. have a 2nd and 3rd option available. In fact, on our first commute home, the first station we came to was out of order.  I knew there was another within a 1/2 mile so had my bases covered.

Also important to be aware....interstate driving at 70mph will get less range than rated.  Cold weather will also reduce range.  Combine them and you might only "safely" get 150 miles i.e. you don't want to be almost dead, get to the only charger you planned on and not be able to get it to work.  So really to me, the last 20 or 30 miles are not truly useful unless in a really safe situation i.e. close to home, no chance of long traffic jam etc.

In mixed driving in warmer weather, range is easily above rated.  Edmunds got 285 miles in their range testing.

[Focus_on_the_fire]

This is great. Thanks so much for a real-world perspective and advice. Hope you add to this post over time.

[BC_Goldman]

I want to go EV for my next vehicle. I'm putting it off another couple of years hopefully but this post is really making me wish I had the spare cash(flow) to do this now. I was thinking about the Hyundai Kona EV but this looks pretty good too. My big problem right now would be that I live in a condo so no way to charge at home. I need to look around for charging stations again.

I discovered that my state has some really juicy rebates and incentives for EVs right now in addition to the federal $7500. I think last time I looked it was only a couple hundred dollars.

I have averaged 3.4kWh/mile in the 2500 miles we have driven the car.  For 100% home charging, that's .10c to drive 3.4 miles.  Scaling up for a better comparison with fuel cost, we spend $1 in electricity to drive 34 miles.  For less than the cost of a gallon of gas($4), we drive 136 miles.

Should that be 3.4 miles/kWh instead? Otherwise your fuel economy doesn't look right.

[EchoStache]

Woops yes you are correct 3.4miles/kWh!!

The Hyundai Kona, although mostly the same car, is a better deal than the Kia Niro. It’s $2-$3,000 cheaper than the Niro and has a little better range. Maybe it’s a bit lighter or a bit more aerodynamic but it went 315 miles to the Niro’s 285. That’s significant IMO. So definitely a better deal. However, this was my wife’s car and she liked the Niro better. Significantly, the Niro does have a roomier back seat which made it pretty nice when we drove 50 miles with all three kids in the back.  Granted, we did not look at or test drive the Hyundai which I wish we would have due to the better value.

If I end up getting an EV for myself next year, the Kona is at the top of the list. Ioniq 5 and EV6 are significantly more expensive and don’t seem to do better on range. They are MUCH faster to charge at DC fast chargers if that were to matter to someone. But it would have to matter A LOT as home charging is probably 95-99% use.

[EchoStache]

Another little tidbit about charging. We are renting a fully furnished apt and cannot charge there as we park in the road. Our solution was that there is a McDonald’s about 1 mile away. So once a week, usually Thursday, we drop the car off to charge for free. Our landlords don’t mind giving us a lift back and dropping us off the next morning. It easily charges to 100% in half that time but that is the most convenient for them. So we charge for free every week for a relatively minor inconvenience. We would certainly just charge where we stay if it were feasible but I have to admit I’m really digging the free charging :).

Some stores and shopping centers also offer free level 2 charging.

[wageslave23]

I still can't make the numbers work financially.  At 10k miles a year, I'm saving roughly $1k a year in fuel costs. A kia shortage is comparable at $24k msrp. So that's a 13 yr payback. Not to mention the hassle of trying to find charging stations on a road trip.

[EchoStache]

I still can't make the numbers work financially.  At 10k miles a year, I'm saving roughly $1k a year in fuel costs. A kia shortage is comparable at $24k msrp. So that's a 13 yr payback. Not to mention the hassle of trying to find charging stations on a road trip.

MSRP EV $42,815
Net after rebates $34,565
Sportage MSRP $24,000

$10,565 difference.

Assuming Sportage avg fuel economy 26 mpg(23 city, 30 hwy) = 384 gallons for 10,000 miles
$4 gallon = $1536.  Oil change $75?  So $1611/year.
EV charging cost @3.4miles/kWh = $294 if you don't have solar.  Difference is $1317/year, 8 years.  6.5 years if you have solar.


If you drive more, things swing towards the EV.   If gas prices go down, it swings back to the ICE car.  For me, things were coming out close enough on the financial side that is was worth whatever extra spend there might be depending on how the future plays out.  In other words, if I come out $1-$2,000 behind on the EV over time, its worth trying out EV ownership for me.  So that plays in as well.  If purely financial, Hyundai Kona EV can be had for as little as $36k, or $27,750 after rebates.  I think that would be tougher to beat with a new ICE car.  A much more fuel efficient car would obviously make it tougher to financially justify the EV.

So I think if someone were making a purely financial decision of whether to buy a new EV or new ICE, you really have to keep the cost as low as possible, and the Hyundai Kona, IMO, is the best candidate currently on the market for this.

[wageslave23]

I still can't make the numbers work financially.  At 10k miles a year, I'm saving roughly $1k a year in fuel costs. A kia shortage is comparable at $24k msrp. So that's a 13 yr payback. Not to mention the hassle of trying to find charging stations on a road trip.

MSRP EV $42,815
Net after rebates $34,565
Sportage MSRP $24,000

$10,565 difference.

Assuming Sportage avg fuel economy 26 mpg(23 city, 30 hwy) = 384 gallons for 10,000 miles
$4 gallon = $1536.  Oil change $75?  So $1611/year.
EV charging cost @3.4miles/kWh = $294 if you don't have solar.  Difference is $1317/year, 8 years.  6.5 years if you have solar.


If you drive more, things swing towards the EV.   If gas prices go down, it swings back to the ICE car.  For me, things were coming out close enough on the financial side that is was worth whatever extra spend there might be depending on how the future plays out.  In other words, if I come out $1-$2,000 behind on the EV over time, its worth trying out EV ownership for me.  So that plays in as well.  If purely financial, Hyundai Kona EV can be had for as little as $36k, or $27,750 after rebates.  I think that would be tougher to beat with a new ICE car.  A much more fuel efficient car would obviously make it tougher to financially justify the EV.

So I think if someone were making a purely financial decision of whether to buy a new EV or new ICE, you really have to keep the cost as low as possible, and the Hyundai Kona, IMO, is the best candidate currently on the market for this.

I think $3 or $3.50 per gallon is a better 10 yr avg once the Russia crisis works itself out. And don't forget about $100 extra per year in interest on the extra $10k initial price.  But yeah I get your point, it's close depending on personal situation and assumptions about future gas prices.  My actual driving is closer to 5k miles per year, so I think it will be a while. But I hope soon they will develop better and cheaper batteries.

[pdxvandal]

Thanks for the writeup re: the Niro ... I've read and heard a lot of good things about it. I'll be in the car market in the next 1-3 years, and have read amazing things about the Kona. BUT, it just seems too small. The body length is less than my Prius and I'm a 6-3, 190-pound guy who wonders if I can comfortably drive that often and take it camping with a family of 3. I haven't actually sat in one or driven one, so maybe others on this board can chime in. The Niro or a Subaru or Mazda sub-compact SUV seems more comfortable ... or a Niro.

[EchoStache]

Thanks for the writeup re: the Niro ... I've read and heard a lot of good things about it. I'll be in the car market in the next 1-3 years, and have read amazing things about the Kona. BUT, it just seems too small. The body length is less than my Prius and I'm a 6-3, 190-pound guy who wonders if I can comfortably drive that often and take it camping with a family of 3. I haven't actually sat in one or driven one, so maybe others on this board can chime in. The Niro or a Subaru or Mazda sub-compact SUV seems more comfortable ... or a Niro.

We rented a Mazda CX-5 a couple years ago, and I seem to remember it being *REALLY* tight to squeeze the 3 kids in the back seat.  The back seat seems roomy on the Niro...roomier than I thought it would be.  Granted, it wouldn't be roomy for three 6' tall large adults.
The front seat in the Niro has plenty of room so I'm guessing the Kona would be roomy up front as well, but less so in the back.  Niro is getting a bit of a cosmetic redesign for 2023 FYI.  Actually might be a very slight upgrade in battery capacity and range i.e. from 64-64.8 kW or something like that.  Rebates should be good through next year at least AFAIK.

[EchoStache]

I think $3 or $3.50 per gallon is a better 10 yr avg once the Russia crisis works itself out. And don't forget about $100 extra per year in interest on the extra $10k initial price.  But yeah I get your point, it's close depending on personal situation and assumptions about future gas prices.  My actual driving is closer to 5k miles per year, so I think it will be a while. But I hope soon they will develop better and cheaper batteries.

Oof yea I don't think you can make the math work at 5,000 miles/year, especially with a probably realistic drop in gas prices.  I see the problem here though, you need to drive way more!!  :).   I was spending $250/month in gas *before* prices went up.  Honestly, driving only 5k/year is a great position to be in.

[Paper Chaser]

I still can't make the numbers work financially.  At 10k miles a year, I'm saving roughly $1k a year in fuel costs. A kia shortage is comparable at $24k msrp. So that's a 13 yr payback. Not to mention the hassle of trying to find charging stations on a road trip.

MSRP EV $42,815
Net after rebates $34,565
Sportage MSRP $24,000

$10,565 difference.

Assuming Sportage avg fuel economy 26 mpg(23 city, 30 hwy) = 384 gallons for 10,000 miles
$4 gallon = $1536.  Oil change $75?  So $1611/year.
EV charging cost @3.4miles/kWh = $294 if you don't have solar.  Difference is $1317/year, 8 years.  6.5 years if you have solar.


If you drive more, things swing towards the EV.   If gas prices go down, it swings back to the ICE car.  For me, things were coming out close enough on the financial side that is was worth whatever extra spend there might be depending on how the future plays out.  In other words, if I come out $1-$2,000 behind on the EV over time, its worth trying out EV ownership for me.  So that plays in as well.  If purely financial, Hyundai Kona EV can be had for as little as $36k, or $27,750 after rebates.  I think that would be tougher to beat with a new ICE car.  A much more fuel efficient car would obviously make it tougher to financially justify the EV.

So I think if someone were making a purely financial decision of whether to buy a new EV or new ICE, you really have to keep the cost as low as possible, and the Hyundai Kona, IMO, is the best candidate currently on the market for this.

Did PA ever adopt an extra annual fee for registering EVs? I know there was a bill at one point, but lost track. For a person that's on the fence with the financials of buying an EV, adding $100+ each year to register the vehicles can have an impact on the math too. Such fees are growing in popularity as EV popularity increases too. So not having an extra fee now may not mean that you won't have a fee in a few years

[afox]

Sounds great and what a time saving convenience to never have to go to a gas station! I cant wait to never go to a gas station again.

What is your electric rate per kwh?

Regarding cold weather operation. Keep in mind that Li batteries cant be charged when below 32f, the charging system has to warm the batteries to an appropriate temp before charging them. Thus charging times are longer and miles per kwh including those kwh used to warm the batteries are less in cold weather not even accounting for running the heater.

I really wanted to buy a rav4 prime 1.5 years ago when we were shopping for new family car but it was just a bit smaller than a gas CRV, enough that the family of 4 could not fit comfortably in the rav4 prime. Unfortunately toyota put the battery pack in the trunk and removed the spare tire and took up valuable storage space from the trunk to fit the battery. The gas crv we bought has a spare tire and at least 6" higher trunk and a few more inches in the rear seat.

[EchoStache]

PA does not have an increased EV registration fee yet.  I'll be surprised if it doesn't happen.  It has to as EV's become more common, although I believe it should be based on annual actual mileage driven.  The gas tax has this built in....you only pay tax on the gallons you use.  Drive more miles, use the roads more, pay more.  The issue I see with a flat registration fee is the EV owner who drives 50 miles a week and ends up paying a registration tax equivalent to 15,000 miles/year that an ICE owner would pay.

My rate for electricity is 0.10c/kWh.

It has been nice driving past gas stations for the past weeks.

As far as the decrease in performance in cold weather, I agree its an important thing to be aware of.  As mentioned before, a good reason to make sure you purchase an EV with heat pump system.  My Niro also has heated seats and a steering wheel heater, and this IMO is also very important.  If your body is heated directly by the seats and your hands are nice and toasty from the steering wheel, it requires *MUCH* less cabin heat to feel comfortable.  Combined with the heat pump, it makes a huge difference with how much range is affected by cold weather.

[Paper Chaser]

I really wanted to buy a rav4 prime 1.5 years ago when we were shopping for new family car but it was just a bit smaller than a gas CRV, enough that the family of 4 could not fit comfortably in the rav4 prime. Unfortunately toyota put the battery pack in the trunk and removed the spare tire and took up valuable storage space from the trunk to fit the battery. The gas crv we bought has a spare tire and at least 6" higher trunk and a few more inches in the rear seat.

The battery in the Rav4 Prime is underneath the floor of the passenger compartment:

https://www.toyota-tech.eu/HYBRID/HVDM/EN/hvdm%20RAV%20PHV.pdf

[desertadapted]

Just a brief humble brag (or just brag).  I’m on a power plan that punishes use from 3:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. during the week, but otherwise charges 5.146 cents per KWH.  I have a 66 KWH battery, so the total charge for refilling the entire battery is $3.40, which right now is about $1.00 less than a gallon of gas.   Depending on how leaden my foot is and how much highway driving I’m doing, I’m getting between 230 and 280 miles of range for that $3.40. Add to that total maintenance of $300 over 70,000 miles (excluding tires).  I know I didn’t engineer the damn thing, and frankly did nothing productive other than buy the car and drive it, but it still makes me a smug SOB.  Thanks, I won’t let the door hit me on the way out.

[PhrugalPhan]

Beginning of the month I did the most un-Mustachian thing, I bought a new Tesla.  I ordered it March 1st expecting it to take many months to be delivered, but it came the first week of May.  I swore I wouldn't buy a nice car until I retired - I'm still working though I am in the 2023 cohort, so it won't be long.  So far I think it was a good buy, though who knows down the road.  I was able to sell my 12-year-old 193k mile econobox for $2500 due to the current market, so that is a nice plus (3 years ago it would likely have gotten under $1,000).  And in the following week after I ordered the car the price of Teslas went up $4,000.  And... I could sell my car today for $5,000 more than I paid.

The even crazier thing is I am finding there are a number of places near me where I can go and charge for free.  So far, other than a trip out of town my charging has been 50% free, 50% at home and the electricity cost at home gives me a rate where I can go 30 miles for $0.60.  I use that number as my old car got about 30 miles to the gallon, so I tend to compare gas prices to $0.60. 

[VanillaGorilla]

Just a brief humble brag (or just brag).  I’m on a power plan that punishes use from 3:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. during the week, but otherwise charges 5.146 cents per KWH.  I have a 66 KWH battery, so the total charge for refilling the entire battery is $3.40, which right now is about $1.00 less than a gallon of gas.   Depending on how leaden my foot is and how much highway driving I’m doing, I’m getting between 230 and 280 miles of range for that $3.40. Add to that total maintenance of $300 over 70,000 miles (excluding tires).  I know I didn’t engineer the damn thing, and frankly did nothing productive other than buy the car and drive it, but it still makes me a smug SOB.  Thanks, I won’t let the door hit me on the way out.

That is super impressive. Here in CA my rates are three times that, and I'd save nothing relative to a good hybrid.

[bryan995]

Just a brief humble brag (or just brag).  I’m on a power plan that punishes use from 3:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. during the week, but otherwise charges 5.146 cents per KWH.  I have a 66 KWH battery, so the total charge for refilling the entire battery is $3.40, which right now is about $1.00 less than a gallon of gas.   Depending on how leaden my foot is and how much highway driving I’m doing, I’m getting between 230 and 280 miles of range for that $3.40. Add to that total maintenance of $300 over 70,000 miles (excluding tires).  I know I didn’t engineer the damn thing, and frankly did nothing productive other than buy the car and drive it, but it still makes me a smug SOB.  Thanks, I won’t let the door hit me on the way out.

I think most folks wholly under estimate the maintenance savings on an EV compared to ICE. It is significant!  And at least over the past few years, New EV depreciation has been far lower than new ICE depreciation. Likely correlated with gas price trends. EV also have some fairly wild Federal/state tax incentives to offset the added cost of the EV (15,000 in some states). And don’t forget, they are way more fun to drive .. 

5.146c/kwh off peak is wild!  Basically free in 2022 dollars.

We pay 10c/kwh from midnight to 6am. Still cheap, but not desertadapted cheap! :)

[habanero]

I think most folks wholly under estimate the maintenance savings on an EV compared to ICE. It is significant!

I've had mine for bit over 7 years now (Tesla Model S). On the plus side it does not require service at regular intervals, but bar the engine and transmission it still have pretty much all the other parts that can fail in a car. So far I have replaced all door handles (three on warranty, one out of). Admittingly a well-known design flaw by Tesla and the newer ones are supposed to be much more duarble. Then the front dampers + somehting else in that area needed replacement. And I needed new brake rotors and pads (which surpises me a little as with any EV the brakes get much less use due to the regenerative breaking) and I've been pretty good at using the brakes more often than "needed" so they shouldt stay completely idle which also isnt good for 'em.

Its purely anecdotical, of course, and anyones milage can vary, but pretty much all the money I have spent on maintenance on my cars so far in life has been on the EV.

When EVs got mainstream over here (Norway) a lot worried about battery life and degradation. Its a critical component and very, very expensive to replace, but those fears have mostly died down as it isn't really an issue and the battery is likely to outlive the car. Folks, like me, are however discovering there are plenty of other parts that can fail like in any other car.

[Abe]

I got a similar deal with trading in a Prius for a VW ID.4, but msrp at that time was $40k and trade-in value was $24k. I pocketed the tax rebate since interest is so low. I charge it either at work or with my solar panels. No maintenance/build issues to report.

EVs are heavier so that may be why you’re seeing more brake wear than one would expect; the times they do brake puts a lot of stress.

[Just Joe]

Regen braking is adjustable in most of the EVs so you could turn up the regen on your EV and perhaps use the brakes less. Even the Leaf has some adjustability.

[Must_ache]

So Kia is paying me 7.5% interest on the money we used to buy the car :). I may do another $20k(as gifts).

Let's be realistic, Kia isn't paying you anything.   The government is paying you 7.5% within the next six months, and possibly higher than your <1% loan interest rate going forward if inflation continues to be a concern according to the CPI.

[lutorm]

At the 35c/kWh we're paying here, even at $5/gal the only reason it's a financial win to charge our Pacifica plug-in hybrid is because we had surplus production on our PV installation. Electricity prices seem to vary at least as much as gas prices do across the country.

[scottnews]

Bolts are might be coming down to $26,500.   I wish they would charge faster
https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/1/23150210/gm-chevy-bolt-ev-euv-price-cut-2023

[AccidentialMustache]

If bolts charged at 100kw (most of the time) rather than 50kw (most of the time), we'd probably own one. As it was on a road trip, we pulled in to a charger after two bolts were there charging and by the time we ate (picnic/sandwiches) and hit the bathroom we'd overshot our charge target to 93% or something like that and left and the bolts were... still sitting there charging. Slowly. Now we did arrive at 54% SoC to be fair but still.

[desertadapted]

@AccidentialMustache
Yup.  I love my Bolt.  Fantastic car.  But an absolute disaster on road trips.  The slow charge speeds are maddening, particularly given the strides other manufacturers have made.  I've taken a few road trips over the last 70,000 miles and don't plan on ever doing another.  We are a two car family and use the ICE car for anything longer than 200 miles.  Not a great car for a one-car family.  But boy was it affordable.

@lutorm
$0.35/kwh!  And that's the kama'aina rate!  ;-)   If there is any plus side, it has motivated Kauai to hit 56% renewable by 2019.  Be interesting to see how the rest of the islands proceed.

[windytrail]

Facepunch for not buying an e-bike instead.

[MoneyTree]

want to jump in this thread because I'm considering an EV in 2022 as well. The Hyundai Kona has come up a few times in this thread, but I've also heard that the back seat is not that roomy.

I'd need to be able to put in 2 car seats in the back, so this might be a deal breaker. Does anybody here actually have a Kona EV and confirm how the back seat space is?

[db_cooper]

Enjoyed the OP's discussion.  We're 2024 cohorts and planning on getting our first EV as we'll be retiring to an area that is a bit of a tourist destination with high local gas prices, and one of the lowest electric rates using BPA (Bonneville Power), currently 2.7 cents per Kwh.

Our retirement plans include a lot of hiking, so some decent ground clearance to drive forest service roads will be top of mind.  Doesn't have to be as good as our Subaru, but I also don't want to buy a Model X!  Haven't done any research yet as we're a ways off from purchase, but an EV with AWD and some clearance will make a lot of SUV drivers take notice I think.

[Abe]

Enjoyed the OP's discussion.  We're 2024 cohorts and planning on getting our first EV as we'll be retiring to an area that is a bit of a tourist destination with high local gas prices, and one of the lowest electric rates using BPA (Bonneville Power), currently 2.7 cents per Kwh.

Our retirement plans include a lot of hiking, so some decent ground clearance to drive forest service roads will be top of mind.  Doesn't have to be as good as our Subaru, but I also don't want to buy a Model X!  Haven't done any research yet as we're a ways off from purchase, but an EV with AWD and some clearance will make a lot of SUV drivers take notice I think.

I think the Hummer is coming out with an EV version. Rivian has started delivering vehicles. Also Subaru has an RV Frankenstein mashjob coming out. I have no experience with any of these, just throwing them out there!

[Fresh Bread]

Enjoyed the OP's discussion.  We're 2024 cohorts and planning on getting our first EV as we'll be retiring to an area that is a bit of a tourist destination with high local gas prices, and one of the lowest electric rates using BPA (Bonneville Power), currently 2.7 cents per Kwh.

Our retirement plans include a lot of hiking, so some decent ground clearance to drive forest service roads will be top of mind.  Doesn't have to be as good as our Subaru, but I also don't want to buy a Model X!  Haven't done any research yet as we're a ways off from purchase, but an EV with AWD and some clearance will make a lot of SUV drivers take notice I think.

I think the Hummer is coming out with an EV version. Rivian has started delivering vehicles. Also Subaru has an RV Frankenstein mashjob coming out. I have no experience with any of these, just throwing them out there!

How about a Volvo XC40? We test drove one and really liked it and all its inclusions but felt a bit car sick/ woozy after which we put down to not being used to being in SUVs. We ordered a Polestar which has higher clearance than a normal sedan and has AWD as an option.

[surpasspro]

Wish there were more options like the Chevy Volt that I drive.  35 miles of battery and when it runs out the engine kicks in.  I have a vacation house 90 miles away from my primary residence.  I get to the other home and just plug in.  When just going around town I don't use any gas.  There are some plug-in options out there as GM stopped making the Volt but not nearly enough.  At this stage I need to see more mileage range on a pure EV before buying.  My next car will be a plug-in at the very least.

[Psychstache]

I got a 2022 Nissan Leaf S Plus and it has been amazing. All charging is done at home with a free nights energy plan and has been awesome. Still have the SO's ICE car if long distance situation arises, but as a daily commuter it is most excellent.

[ChpBstrd]

I looked at the Bolt, Model 3, Leaf, and various Hyundai/Kia models on https://www.edmunds.com/tco.html to get a picture of the 5 year cost of ownership.

Interestingly, most of the BEVs out there are far less economical to own their their more mechanically complex, gas-guzzling competitors. The Chevy Bolt costs thousands more to own than a similar ICE car like the Civic or Corolla. The BMW 330e costs about a grand more to own than the plain old 330. The Tesla Model 3 costs more to own than a Lexus 300h. Only the Nissan Leaf really seems to compete with the Japanese ICE economy cars or hybrids as a cheap way to get around.

This worse affordability is after factoring a giant tax rebate / subsidy that benefits the BEVs. So basically, at a technological level, BEVs still cost LOTS more than similar ICE cars, with very few exceptions. This won't always be the case because the long-term cost trend is moving in favor of BEVs, and against ICE cars. 

[less4success]

Interestingly, most of the BEVs out there are far less economical to own their their more mechanically complex, gas-guzzling competitors.

What is driving that disparity? Is it just depreciation? (It wasn't obvious to me from the link.)

With so many fewer moving parts, I'm having a hard time seeing how this could be due to maintenance and/or repairs.

Edit: just saw your other thread. I suspect I'm having a hard time explaining this because it's actually not true :)

[alsoknownasDean]

I'm considering buying one in 2025-26. At this point I feel if I'm buying new, I'd rather buy an EV because buying a new ICE locks in it's emissions until around 2040 or so. There's also the fuel security issue as we import most of our petrol but electricity is generated locally.

I'd definitely save money on running costs compared to my current car, but unless I'm charging on solar it's not all that much cheaper to run than a hybrid Corolla would be.

I'm holding out hope for a wider range of cheaper EVs on the market. Aside from a couple of Chinese brands and the 40kWh Leaf (and the 28kWh Ioniq), everything on the market here is around $60,000 or higher. Let's see if that changes in the next four years.

[bill1827]

I find it easy to believe that an EV costs more overall than in ICE vehicle. Over here affordable EVs are about 50% more expensive than the ICE equivalent, over 5 years the depreciation is likely to add considerably to the running costs.

If you charge at a public rapid charging point you will be paying about 60p per kWh. For an efficient EV in summer that's 15p per mile, for the average EV in winter that's 24p per mile. My old car cost about 13p per mile in fuel, so the fuel costs of an EV could well be higher.

I doubt that maintenance is going to be much cheaper either. My new EV still has an annual service schedule, which isn't going to cost much less than an ICE service if done by a dealer. Tyres will need changing more often.

Then of course there's this https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyres-produce-more-particle-pollution-than-exhausts-tests-show which implies that EVs produce more particulates than ICE vehicles. (I think the article grossly exaggerates the issue, but there's undoubtedly an element of truth in it and EVs with regenerative braking will produce much less brake dust the ICE vehicles.)

I recently replaced my 10 year old diesel car with an EV. It was an entirely irrational decision. I've been wanting an EV for 10 years or more since the Leaf came out, but it was stupidly expensive with an unusable range. They are still stupidly expensive, but the range has improved as has the charging infrastructure.

The old car was efficient, reliable and fairly cheap to run. The new car will cost me 22p per mile in depreciation if I keep it for 10 years, so a very expensive choice.

[Abe]

My car costs $0 per mile in fuel due to my solar panels. If I amortized the cost of the panels and approximately 17% going to car charging based on current usage (75kWh every 2 weeks / 420 kWh average production), it’s 20 x 0.17 = $3.4k over the lifetime of the panels (arbitrarily 25 years based on warranty) = $136 per year.
If I paid current electricity rates, it’d be around $300 per year.

I drive about 6000 miles per year and at 30mpg for a crossover SUV and $2.5-$4/gal, I’m looking at $500-800 per year in fuel costs. My car cost about $33k after subsidies, versus $30-$35k for a Honda CR-V or $28-30k for a RAV4.

In my scenario, maintenance costs being the same, the EV comes ahead after a few years on average. It’s purely because of the subsidy ($7.5k).

[FINate]

Thanks for the interesting post.

DD is about 3 years from learning to drive (oh my, when did that happen?!), at which point DW's ~15 year old Toyota (still runs like new) will go to the kids and we'll buy an EV. I'm also very negative on Tesla as I don't like Musk or his fan bois, and still find the fit and finish subpar. Hoping LFP battery density improves by then.

The charging station network for non-Tesla EV's is not nearly as good as the Tesla infrastructure.  We briefly researched charging stations to make sure we would be able to commute the 200 miles back and forth between our assignment and home on the weekends.  We travel from York PA to Uniontown PA but drop down into Maryland and WV to do so.  There are several DC fast chargers to choose from along the route despite it being fairly rural without many "big" cities.  We stop in Hagerstown Maryland to charge every time.  Works perfect as we are ready to eat at that point.  We pack sandwiches, eat dinner, and take a restroom break while charging.  Car is charged up and ready to go by the time we are. 

I think it's time we stop funding EV rebates and instead pump some billions into filling out the DC fast charger network. Some type of partnership with Electrify America to put multiple charge stations in remote areas that are otherwise economically nonviable yet necessary for road trips. E.g. for Boiseans traveling to/from California, reliable fast charging on highway 95 between Boise and Winnemucca, probably around McDermitt. Filling in the gaps would go a long way to greatly increasing the utility of the charging network.

[EchoStache]

2023 Chevy Bolt will be $26,595 without any rebate.

Might be my next car!

[RWD]

Then of course there's this https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyres-produce-more-particle-pollution-than-exhausts-tests-show which implies that EVs produce more particulates than ICE vehicles. (I think the article grossly exaggerates the issue, but there's undoubtedly an element of truth in it and EVs with regenerative braking will produce much less brake dust the ICE vehicles.)

If that article is accurate then each tire is losing ~4 pounds of rubber over its lifespan (~60k miles). That might be in the ballpark (within margin of error for my calculation estimates), though it seems very unlikely that all of that ends up in the air.

[RWD]

Interestingly, most of the BEVs out there are far less economical to own their their more mechanically complex, gas-guzzling competitors.

What is driving that disparity? Is it just depreciation? (It wasn't obvious to me from the link.)

With so many fewer moving parts, I'm having a hard time seeing how this could be due to maintenance and/or repairs.

Edit: just saw your other thread. I suspect I'm having a hard time explaining this because it's actually not true :)

https://electrek.co/2022/05/12/most-electric-cars-are-cheaper-to-own-from-day-one-report/

[RWD]

Then of course there's this https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyres-produce-more-particle-pollution-than-exhausts-tests-show which implies that EVs produce more particulates than ICE vehicles. (I think the article grossly exaggerates the issue, but there's undoubtedly an element of truth in it and EVs with regenerative braking will produce much less brake dust the ICE vehicles.)

If that article is accurate then each tire is losing ~4 pounds of rubber over its lifespan (~60k miles). That might be in the ballpark (within margin of error for my calculation estimates), though it seems very unlikely that all of that ends up in the air.

I was thinking some more about this and I think the article is very misleading. The article specifically calls out particle pollution, which as I understand it does not include CO₂. So when the article has the quote "tyres are rapidly eclipsing tailpipe as a major source of emissions" it is ignoring that part. The tire particles emissions are on the order of tens of milligrams per kilometer. While greenhouse gas emissions from the tailpipe of conventional vehicles is on the order of hundreds of grams per kilometer. So by mass the tailpipe is still 1,000 to 10,000 times more emissions than tires.

It's still worth considering as very fine particle emissions are bad. But it also needs to be kept in perspective.

[chaskavitch]

@MoneyTree I looked at the Kona last year.  The backseat is definitely a little small.  I'm 5'5", and I had a few inches of leg room with the front seat adjusted for my height.  You'd be able to fit car seats width-wise, but if your kids get tall it's going to be tight.

[Paper Chaser]

Then of course there's this https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyres-produce-more-particle-pollution-than-exhausts-tests-show which implies that EVs produce more particulates than ICE vehicles. (I think the article grossly exaggerates the issue, but there's undoubtedly an element of truth in it and EVs with regenerative braking will produce much less brake dust the ICE vehicles.)

If that article is accurate then each tire is losing ~4 pounds of rubber over its lifespan (~60k miles). That might be in the ballpark (within margin of error for my calculation estimates), though it seems very unlikely that all of that ends up in the air.

I was thinking some more about this and I think the article is very misleading. The article specifically calls out particle pollution, which as I understand it does not include CO₂. So when the article has the quote "tyres are rapidly eclipsing tailpipe as a major source of emissions" it is ignoring that part. The tire particles emissions are on the order of tens of milligrams per kilometer. While greenhouse gas emissions from the tailpipe of conventional vehicles is on the order of hundreds of grams per kilometer. So by mass the tailpipe is still 1,000 to 10,000 times more emissions than tires.

It's still worth considering as very fine particle emissions are bad. But it also needs to be kept in perspective.

Tailpipe emissions fall into 3 basic categories:
1) Smog forming- Things like NOx/Carbon Monoxide, these impact air quality in local areas
2) Green House Gases- CO2/Methane, these rise into the atmosphere and affect the environment
3) particulates- technically these are classified as "smog forming", but they're solid matter rather than gaseous


The whole article is about particulates from tires eclipsing particulates from the tailpipe. That specific quote wasn't super clear on that point, but it was pretty clearly implied based on the rest of the article. It's followed up by the following quote from the same person:
"Molden said an initial estimate of tyre particle emissions prompted the new work. “We came to a bewildering amount of material being released into the environment – 300,000 tonnes of tyre rubber in the UK and US, just from cars and vans every year.”

For what it's worth, during tailpipe emissions certification, particulates are both weighed and counted individually for EU applications, while the US standard currently focuses only on weight of the particulates.

[bill1827]

Then of course there's this https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyres-produce-more-particle-pollution-than-exhausts-tests-show which implies that EVs produce more particulates than ICE vehicles. (I think the article grossly exaggerates the issue, but there's undoubtedly an element of truth in it and EVs with regenerative braking will produce much less brake dust the ICE vehicles.)

If that article is accurate then each tire is losing ~4 pounds of rubber over its lifespan (~60k miles). That might be in the ballpark (within margin of error for my calculation estimates), though it seems very unlikely that all of that ends up in the air.

I was thinking some more about this and I think the article is very misleading. The article specifically calls out particle pollution, which as I understand it does not include CO₂. So when the article has the quote "tyres are rapidly eclipsing tailpipe as a major source of emissions" it is ignoring that part. The tire particles emissions are on the order of tens of milligrams per kilometer. While greenhouse gas emissions from the tailpipe of conventional vehicles is on the order of hundreds of grams per kilometer. So by mass the tailpipe is still 1,000 to 10,000 times more emissions than tires.

It's still worth considering as very fine particle emissions are bad. But it also needs to be kept in perspective.

I agree, but it came from the Grauniad which has a tendency to slant environmental stories in an alarmist way.  Having said that, particulates are a health issue, albeit most of them come from wood burners.

[MoneyTree]

@MoneyTree I looked at the Kona last year.  The backseat is definitely a little small.  I'm 5'5", and I had a few inches of leg room with the front seat adjusted for my height.  You'd be able to fit car seats width-wise, but if your kids get tall it's going to be tight.

Thanks for this input. Yeah from everything I've read, the Kia Niro EV looks like it would be a better choice as far a backseat space is concerned. Even considering the Kia EV6.