Bullshit jobs

[BeanCounter]

This article really hit home for me. I’ve given myself a hard time about why I hate my good paying, cushy office job. This explains so much-
https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/06/29/bullshit-jobs-and-the-yoke-of-managerial-feudalism?&cid1=d/sn/tw/n/n/n/paid/n/n/SMB/n/content/n/OF&utm_source=Facebook-Instagram&utm_medium=PaidSocial&utm_campaign=Open-Future&utm_content=GLOBAL-LAL-Sub-10?&cid1=d/sn/fb/n/n/n/paid/n/n/SMB/n/content/n/OF&cid3=UM&dclid=CJCH0Zrs4-MCFdNuwQodGTYF4g

[Dogastrophe]

I have a copy of the book in PDF.  If you want it, I can email to you.  Just drop me a PM.

Edit.
I've created a link in my dropbox with the pdf copy if anyone want.  I'll keep it active for a week or two.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/cyn65wbykpio9m6/AAB4t6sO_32_78qKXSaS12Oka?dl=0

[Brokenreign]

I really enjoyed the book. It's more of an opinion piece than anything but it presents a lot of good thoughts as to why people with jobs that are easy, high-paying and relatively autonomous can still find their jobs depressing. I'd be curious as to the % of the early retirement crowd that work in these BS jobs! I'm guessing relatively high as those jobs provide both the $ and incentive to leave early!

[PDXTabs]

The book was great and a fun easy read (unlike Debt which was hard and academic to my feeble mind).

[dodojojo]

I well and truly have one of these jobs. I'm not going into any details, out of precaution. But maybe when I'm done with the job or the job is done with me, I can say more.

[wageslave23]

I try to avoid reading things that confirm what I already know.  Ignorance (or short periods of delusion) is bliss.

[bbates728]

By looking at your username I can conclude that you are in accounting like me. My role is 95% bullshit and it completely changed how I work after reading the book. I used to freak out over the tiniest things because procedures aren't being followed or actions weren't authorized. Now, I laugh quietly at my coworkers as they froth at the mouth over small changes in wording or the immediacy of their very important work.

I will say that although my stress levels have plummeted, so has my motivation to get ahead of things and work satisfaction. Kind of a double edged sword.

[wageslave23]

By looking at your username I can conclude that you are in accounting like me. My role is 95% bullshit and it completely changed how I work after reading the book. I used to freak out over the tiniest things because procedures aren't being followed or actions weren't authorized. Now, I laugh quietly at my coworkers as they froth at the mouth over small changes in wording or the immediacy of their very important work.

I will say that although my stress levels have plummeted, so has my motivation to get ahead of things and work satisfaction. Kind of a double edged sword.

Tax and Accounting here too.  I always tell coworkers that there is no such thing as an emergency in accounting, only poor planning. 

[LifeHappens]

I'm sure the proliferation of high-paying but essentially meaningless work has fueled the growth of the FIRE movement. If society won't give us the leisure time we were promised, why not buy it?

[A Fella from Stella]

I'm sure the proliferation of high-paying but essentially meaningless work has fueled the growth of the FIRE movement. If society won't give us the leisure time we were promised, why not buy it?

Love this.

[A Fella from Stella]

I had a summer gig that paid decently, and required very little of me - just a lot of sitting around, and I could walk around, too.

But after a couple years of not being around for friends on any Saturdays and Sundays, it really lost its appeal. Add in that my boss could not handle any disruption with any grace, and I found myself too stressed that something COULD happen. For example, every May when I started a piece of equipment would fail from 9 months of not being used or maintained. She'd accuse me of using it wrong, and without fail, it turned out to not be my fault. One time there was an emergency, so I directed an ambulance to an off-limits road, and when I told my boss, she freaked out and said she was going to kill herself.

The position was totally useless, and I know that because when I gave her notice the Spring before the new season, she said she was thinking of disbanding the position anyway.

[WGH]

As a fellow accounting wage slave this resonates with me as well.

Just think what kind of culture, music, science, ideas might result if all those people were liberated to do things they actually thought were important. So if the question is one of personal responsibility, I’d say: let’s just give everyone enough to live on, some sort of universal basic income, and say “okay, you’re all free now to decide for yourselves what you have to contribute to the world.”

Then, sure, we could say that people would be responsible for what they came up with. And sure, a lot of it would be nonsense. But it’s hard to imagine a full 40-50% would be doing nonsense, and that’s the situation that we have today. And if we get even one or two new Miles Davises or Einsteins or Freuds or Shakespeares out of the deal, I’d say we’d have more than made back our investment.

Isn't this one of the basic tenets of Marxism? From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs?

Pay everyone the same and since people can pursue what makes them happiest and most productive without worrying about needing the job with a good healthcare plan and a 401k match then all of society benefits? Of course in practice this fails due to jealousy that the Doctor who had to study for years makes as much as the slugabed poet.....

[use2betrix]

I'm sure the proliferation of high-paying but essentially meaningless work has fueled the growth of the FIRE movement. If society won't give us the leisure time we were promised, why not buy it?

What society are you in that you were promised leisure time, to a point you believed it?

[Bloop Bloop]

I'd rather have a bullshit job than a bullshit pay packet in a meaningful job. And at least the high-paying bullshit job lets you escape the corporate rat race nice and early.

[Chris Pascale]

By looking at your username I can conclude that you are in accounting like me. My role is 95% bullshit and it completely changed how I work after reading the book. I used to freak out over the tiniest things because procedures aren't being followed or actions weren't authorized. Now, I laugh quietly at my coworkers as they froth at the mouth over small changes in wording or the immediacy of their very important work.

I will say that although my stress levels have plummeted, so has my motivation to get ahead of things and work satisfaction. Kind of a double edged sword.

Tax and Accounting here too.  I always tell coworkers that there is no such thing as an emergency in accounting, only poor planning.

I worked as a public accountant for exactly 1 year. The work was not worth it. To his credit, the CEO of the firm tried to tell me before I came on that that was the case. He wrote me a very nice email explaining all of the downsides, and there were many from his POV, but they seemed fine to me, having come from a military background. What killed me in the end was just how pointless it all seemed. I really liked some specific clients, and going to their companies, but was spending full days tallying my time in 5-minute increments, and then getting crap "for counting every little thing" I did, leading me to wonder, well, I'm an accountant, am I not?

[FIPurpose]

I'm sure the proliferation of high-paying but essentially meaningless work has fueled the growth of the FIRE movement. If society won't give us the leisure time we were promised, why not buy it?

What society are you in that you were promised leisure time, to a point you believed it?

I believe LifeHappens is referring to Keynes prediction that society would transition to working 15 work week.

[Travis]

I'd rather have a bullshit job than a bullshit pay packet in a meaningful job. And at least the high-paying bullshit job lets you escape the corporate rat race nice and early.

https://dilbert.com/strip/2019-07-20

Scott Adams to the rescue yet again.

[Kyle Schuant]

This is part of why I think UBI isn't as terrible idea as commonly thought. 40-50% of people doing paid work are by their own assessment already paid to do nothing productive anyway. So evidently we have the spare cash... Is it bad to do away with pretences? Can we say the emperor has no clothes?

[BeanCounter]

I have a copy of the book in PDF.  If you want it, I can email to you.  Just drop me a PM.

Thanks for offering! I was able to get the audio book downloaded from the library. I’ve been enjoying listening to it on my bullshit commute to my bullshit job.

[BeanCounter]

I try to avoid reading things that confirm what I already know.  Ignorance (or short periods of delusion) is bliss.

I understand. For me though it was really validating. I’ve worked hard to get promoted to where I am, and I’m making great money, easy boss, nice work environment etc, and I’ve just become depressed. I fucking hate it. And the thought of taking the next steps to the next promotion makes me sick. I thought I was crazy. On my drive to the office I fantasize about doing literally any other job than going into an office. This just put into words much of what I’ve been feeling that I couldn’t make sense of.

[BeanCounter]

By looking at your username I can conclude that you are in accounting like me. My role is 95% bullshit and it completely changed how I work after reading the book. I used to freak out over the tiniest things because procedures aren't being followed or actions weren't authorized. Now, I laugh quietly at my coworkers as they froth at the mouth over small changes in wording or the immediacy of their very important work.

I will say that although my stress levels have plummeted, so has my motivation to get ahead of things and work satisfaction. Kind of a double edged sword.

Actually I think I have it worse. I’m a CPA that made the jump to corporate finance about fifteen years ago. In a nutshell I would say much of my job is pushing out reporting to senior leadership that will likely never be read. And building slideshow presentations to present to senior leadership and the board who look like they don’t care aren’t listening. And of course going to meetings and participating in work groups.
I’m actually hoping to startup my own bookkeeping and tax business next fall. It won’t pay anywhere close to what I make, but I think I would enjoy working directly with clients and maybe being able to help them with their finances.

Tax and Accounting here too.  I always tell coworkers that there is no such thing as an emergency in accounting, only poor planning.

[Maenad]

Isn't this one of the basic tenets of Marxism? From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs?

Pay everyone the same and since people can pursue what makes them happiest and most productive without worrying about needing the job with a good healthcare plan and a 401k match then all of society benefits? Of course in practice this fails due to jealousy that the Doctor who had to study for years makes as much as the slugabed poet.....

That isn't the impression I've gotten with UBI. It's more of a floor that keeps people housed and fed. If they feel like doing nothing more and writing poetry, fine, but if they want to go to med school and be a high-paid doctor, they can do that too and earn that money on top of the UBI.

[LifeHappens]

I'm sure the proliferation of high-paying but essentially meaningless work has fueled the growth of the FIRE movement. If society won't give us the leisure time we were promised, why not buy it?

What society are you in that you were promised leisure time, to a point you believed it?

I believe LifeHappens is referring to Keynes prediction that society would transition to working 15 work week.

Yes. We were supposed to all be working part-time (if that) by now, as well as driving flying cars and having our homes cleaned by saucy, yet personable robot maids. We may not get the flying car, and robot maids are a ways off yet, but the pursuit of FIRE at least gets our time back.

[Seadog]

I believe LifeHappens is referring to Keynes prediction that society would transition to working 15 work week.

The two points that I would say is 1) if you were happy to live the standard of life that was common in the 1940s, then due to the huge efficiency gains, I'm sure you *could* live that sort of life on 15 hours a week. But that would mean an 800 sq ft home with all kids sharing a room, no car or 1 if you were lucky, maybe a B/W TV, a few sets of clothes that might be home made, and likely a vegetable garden to supplement groceries along side everything made from scratch. Not to mention foregoing all things internet, air travel etc.

But people don't want the free time. When given the choice, they would happily work 40 hours, and have a better life. The other issue is that 15 hr/wk jobs that are at professional level salaries are very hard to come by. Almost the more you make per hour, the more total hours you're expected to work.  In a sense that's exactly what mustachianism is. I will live a life that would have been positively 1%er only 75 years ago, and in exchange my working life will be a sum total of about 1/4th the average person. ALthough it's rearranged such that you still work FT or often more, but the duration of your total working life is much shorter.

This was further exacerbated by the fact that the vast majority of households only had one worker. Actual jobs that do things like bus driver, miner, farmer, builder etc add true, tangible value to society. Things like HR manager, hell even all the way to CEO the link is far far more tenuous. Does the CEO really add value, or were they just in the right place at the right time and reaped enormous rewards from fortuitous circumstance?

Secondly, and I think this was discussed on this forum, also alluded to 20 years ago in Fight Club, most young people think they're somehow going to end up millionaires. It's handy if you're a bank or a university to tell young ppl "don't worry about 200k in school debt, it will all work out and one day you'll be rich". Them buying into that is your bread and butter. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/03/half-of-millennials-think-theyll-be-rich-data-says-otherwise.html

[FIPurpose]

I believe LifeHappens is referring to Keynes prediction that society would transition to working 15 work week.

The two points that I would say is 1) if you were happy to live the standard of life that was common in the 1940s, then due to the huge efficiency gains, I'm sure you *could* live that sort of life on 15 hours a week. But that would mean an 800 sq ft home with all kids sharing a room, no car or 1 if you were lucky, maybe a B/W TV, a few sets of clothes that might be home made, and likely a vegetable garden to supplement groceries along side everything made from scratch. Not to mention foregoing all things internet, air travel etc.

But people don't want the free time. When given the choice, they would happily work 40 hours, and have a better life. The other issue is that 15 hr/wk jobs that are at professional level salaries are very hard to come by. Almost the more you make per hour, the more total hours you're expected to work.  In a sense that's exactly what mustachianism is. I will live a life that would have been positively 1%er only 75 years ago, and in exchange my working life will be a sum total of about 1/4th the average person. ALthough it's rearranged such that you still work FT or often more, but the duration of your total working life is much shorter.

This was further exacerbated by the fact that the vast majority of households only had one worker. Actual jobs that do things like bus driver, miner, farmer, builder etc add true, tangible value to society. Things like HR manager, hell even all the way to CEO the link is far far more tenuous. Does the CEO really add value, or were they just in the right place at the right time and reaped enormous rewards from fortuitous circumstance?

Secondly, and I think this was discussed on this forum, also alluded to 20 years ago in Fight Club, most young people think they're somehow going to end up millionaires. It's handy if you're a bank or a university to tell young ppl "don't worry about 200k in school debt, it will all work out and one day you'll be rich". Them buying into that is your bread and butter. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/03/half-of-millennials-think-theyll-be-rich-data-says-otherwise.html

Well combining Keynes' thoughts about the 15 hour work week and the ideas in BS jobs, in a way Keynes was right. Most of the professional jobs that are high paying could easily be reduced to 20-30 hours per week with no productivity change. We aren't working 40 hours for more money, it's because we have a twisted work culture that continues to believe that more hours means more output no matter how long.

But also, I think Mustachianism is proof that there is no trade-off between 40's level standard of living and less work. We are proving that you can have both. This wasn't a trade-off society deliberately made. It's all about our culture

[Bloop Bloop]

I am self employed. I could make an average wage by working 15 hours a week or I can earn 2.5x average by working 40-ish hours a week. I think as I get more senior, those numbers might change a little, but anyway, sticking with them for present: all things considered, over a 20-25 year working life, I'd rather do the latter and FATFire rather than doing the former and normal FIREing. For me, it's a worthwhile sacrifice. But it depends on what standard of living you want.

[2sk22]

But people don't want the free time. When given the choice, they would happily work 40 hours, and have a better life. The other issue is that 15 hr/wk jobs that are at professional level salaries are very hard to come by. Almost the more you make per hour, the more total hours you're expected to work.  In a sense that's exactly what mustachianism is. I will live a life that would have been positively 1%er only 75 years ago, and in exchange my working life will be a sum total of about 1/4th the average person. ALthough it's rearranged such that you still work FT or often more, but the duration of your total working life is much shorter.

I like your post but with respect to what you wrote about high-paying jobs requiring long hours, I want to mention this great article in the Atlantic about a different form of work disfunction : https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/02/religion-workism-making-americans-miserable/583441/

Rich, college-educated people—especially men—work more than they did many decades ago. They are reared from their teenage years to make their passion their career and, if they don’t have a calling, told not to yield until they find one.

[wageslave23]

But people don't want the free time. When given the choice, they would happily work 40 hours, and have a better life. The other issue is that 15 hr/wk jobs that are at professional level salaries are very hard to come by. Almost the more you make per hour, the more total hours you're expected to work.  In a sense that's exactly what mustachianism is. I will live a life that would have been positively 1%er only 75 years ago, and in exchange my working life will be a sum total of about 1/4th the average person. ALthough it's rearranged such that you still work FT or often more, but the duration of your total working life is much shorter.

I like your post but with respect to what you wrote about high-paying jobs requiring long hours, I want to mention this great article in the Atlantic about a different form of work disfunction : https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/02/religion-workism-making-americans-miserable/583441/

Rich, college-educated people—especially men—work more than they did many decades ago. They are reared from their teenage years to make their passion their career and, if they don’t have a calling, told not to yield until they find one.

Good article.  How do I find more articles that are probing like this one compared to the usual 6th grade level bs personal finance articles?

[CoffeeR]

The problem is not just bullshit jobs. My job has purpose and meaning and helps people and I do not consider it a bullshit job. Except over the last 10 to 20 years more and more bullshit elements have crept into the job. Bullshit time wasters. When I started 20+ years ago, there was little time spend on bullshit, now I spend more and more time doing bullshit so management can tick off certain boxes. I know someone at a small company doing similar work to mine who has remarkably little bullshit elements and I'm envious. Those damn golden handcuffs. OMY.

[undercover]

I don't have the answer completely, but I'm pretty sure I'm at the point that I'm not going to accept a bullshit job anymore. I've always worked and saved like hell to get out of it but I'm always a bit salty too that I couldn't just enjoy the things I'm doing at the time rather than working so hard to get out of them. Or that I couldn't have just found the super meaningful thing from the get go and not had to worry about ever finding it. There's more options than ever but everything is feeling more meaningless than ever too as a result. Imagine working on Apollo in the sixties - how incredible that would have been.

I have learned that money is so completely secondary to finding something you enjoy. What are you going to spend the money on anyway?

I'm sure the proliferation of high-paying but essentially meaningless work has fueled the growth of the FIRE movement. If society won't give us the leisure time we were promised, why not buy it?

People definitely want more leisure time but they also more want meaning in their everyday. Having leisure time is a step towards finding better things to do and thus creating more meaning - but it isn't the one-stop-shop everyone seems to think it is.

I'd rather have a bullshit job than a bullshit pay packet in a meaningful job. And at least the high-paying bullshit job lets you escape the corporate rat race nice and early.

Escape to do...what? Find something more meaningful? I agree that the next best alternative is to make the most money you can in a short amount of time though don't get me wrong.

But people don't want the free time. When given the choice, they would happily work 40 hours, and have a better life.

That's true. People have a hard time sitting still when they know they have the option to do something that's immediately available for them vs. a murkier alternative. It's hard to get past this. But I think it's possible.

Does the CEO really add value, or were they just in the right place at the right time and reaped enormous rewards from fortuitous circumstance?

Right place right time, like everything and everybody else. Most of where you end up is luck. You can't really control what happens to you. Your response to what happens is just an illusion of control.

[Cannot Wait!]

Yes. We were supposed to all be working part-time (if that) by now, as well as driving flying cars and having our homes cleaned by saucy, yet personable robot maids.

From this day forward I am going to clean my house in the sauciest way.  ;)  Thanks for that.

[Seadog]

Well combining Keynes' thoughts about the 15 hour work week and the ideas in BS jobs, in a way Keynes was right. Most of the professional jobs that are high paying could easily be reduced to 20-30 hours per week with no productivity change. We aren't working 40 hours for more money, it's because we have a twisted work culture that continues to believe that more hours means more output no matter how long.

But also, I think Mustachianism is proof that there is no trade-off between 40's level standard of living and less work. We are proving that you can have both. This wasn't a trade-off society deliberately made. It's all about our culture

I think it's about the "blueprint for life" combined with factors beyond your control, along with lack of conscious choices on most people's parts saddled additionally with poor impulse control.

The blueprint is like this: Go to elementary school, junior high, then high school. Do good in high school so you can get into a good uni. Don't worry about the cost or what your taking, the most important thing is go to a good school and study what you love. It will be worth it. You do because that's what people do.

Then graduate with debt. Throw out 25 resumes. Work for who ever is willing to hire you and give you the most money. They dictate both the hours and how you spend your day. Buy a home on credit because that's what you do. The biggest you can. Buy a car on credit. The nicest you can. Because that's what people do.

Sock money away for retirement. Spend the rest on toys. Pop out 2.3 kids, put them in day care. More expenses. All the while spending everything you have extra on trips and TVs while patting yourself on the back for saving 8% of you're income. Retire at 65 reasonably comfortably. Because that's what people do.

I have several friends who fall picturesquely into this mold. And they by all measures are above average and successful. The common theme however is a lack of control or conscious choice. Literally flowing with the river, and picking choices that other people lay before you.  You work 40 hours a week and buy the fancy car, because that's what people do. Insinuating I would want to work 15 hours a week, or saying I haven't worked in over a year, or saying that I'm not concerned about maximizing my engineering degree for as much $ as possible, and I come off as a straight up weirdo. Social pressure is an incredibly strong force.

[Milizard]

Well combining Keynes' thoughts about the 15 hour work week and the ideas in BS jobs, in a way Keynes was right. Most of the professional jobs that are high paying could easily be reduced to 20-30 hours per week with no productivity change. We aren't working 40 hours for more money, it's because we have a twisted work culture that continues to believe that more hours means more output no matter how long.

But also, I think Mustachianism is proof that there is no trade-off between 40's level standard of living and less work. We are proving that you can have both. This wasn't a trade-off society deliberately made. It's all about our culture

I think it's about the "blueprint for life" combined with factors beyond your control, along with lack of conscious choices on most people's parts saddled additionally with poor impulse control.

The blueprint is like this: Go to elementary school, junior high, then high school. Do good in high school so you can get into a good uni. Don't worry about the cost or what your taking, the most important thing is go to a good school and study what you love. It will be worth it. You do because that's what people do.

Then graduate with debt. Throw out 25 resumes. Work for who ever is willing to hire you and give you the most money. They dictate both the hours and how you spend your day. Buy a home on credit because that's what you do. The biggest you can. Buy a car on credit. The nicest you can. Because that's what people do.

Sock money away for retirement. Spend the rest on toys. Pop out 2.3 kids, put them in day care. More expenses. All the while spending everything you have extra on trips and TVs while patting yourself on the back for saving 8% of you're income. Retire at 65 reasonably comfortably. Because that's what people do.

I have several friends who fall picturesquely into this mold. And they by all measures are above average and successful. The common theme however is a lack of control or conscious choice. Literally flowing with the river, and picking choices that other people lay before you.  You work 40 hours a week and buy the fancy car, because that's what people do. Insinuating I would want to work 15 hours a week, or saying I haven't worked in over a year, or saying that I'm not concerned about maximizing my engineering degree for as much $ as possible, and I come off as a straight up weirdo. Social pressure is an incredibly strong force.

Really good points.  I  would add that, (from my own experience) if you do try to follow your own blueprint, you will hit brick walls because it's not the universally accepted blueprint. I'm not talking about anything off the wall, either, just trying to pursue different fields within the finance world.

[2sk22]

Good article.  How do I find more articles that are probing like this one compared to the usual 6th grade level bs personal finance articles?

These books are a good starting point:

The Second Machine Age: Work, Progress, and Prosperity in a Time of Brilliant Technologies by Eric Brynjolfson and Andrew McAfee

The Wealth of Humans: Work, Power, and Status in the Twenty-first Century by Ryan Avent

These books have tons of good references in them that you can use a starting point for your reading. I think this is a fascinating topic that needs a lot of study.

[DadJokes]

By looking at your username I can conclude that you are in accounting like me. My role is 95% bullshit and it completely changed how I work after reading the book. I used to freak out over the tiniest things because procedures aren't being followed or actions weren't authorized. Now, I laugh quietly at my coworkers as they froth at the mouth over small changes in wording or the immediacy of their very important work.

I will say that although my stress levels have plummeted, so has my motivation to get ahead of things and work satisfaction. Kind of a double edged sword.

Tax and Accounting here too.  I always tell coworkers that there is no such thing as an emergency in accounting, only poor planning.

I worked as a public accountant for exactly 1 year. The work was not worth it. To his credit, the CEO of the firm tried to tell me before I came on that that was the case. He wrote me a very nice email explaining all of the downsides, and there were many from his POV, but they seemed fine to me, having come from a military background. What killed me in the end was just how pointless it all seemed. I really liked some specific clients, and going to their companies, but was spending full days tallying my time in 5-minute increments, and then getting crap "for counting every little thing" I did, leading me to wonder, well, I'm an accountant, am I not?

I interned at a public firm. The interns had a discussion about how they should report their time pooping.

[A Fella from Stella]

Kid in my neighborhood got a job tutoring, but there are more tutors than kids, so she sits round looking at her phone. Her parents keep telling her how great it is, and how they wish they had that job, and then told her she's a brat for complaining.

This topic has really opened my eyes about this kid's integrity. She's looking for meaningful work.

[markbike528CBX]

I interned at a public firm. The interns had a discussion about how they should report their time pooping.

I was part of an organization who's members wrote up a procedure for pooping.
For fun, but on official goldenrod colored paper, in precisely the approved format.

One of my FIRE reasons was that I could see the generation of paper to check off generic project management boxes, not for delivering the service the customer needed.
No limit to BS, and getting worse because we could no longer fend off the SemiBigCorp "system".
Did I mention that SemiBigCorp underwent bankruptcy?

[Dogastrophe]

Kid in my neighborhood got a job tutoring, but there are more tutors than kids, so she sits round looking at her phone. Her parents keep telling her how great it is, and how they wish they had that job, and then told her she's a brat for complaining.

This topic has really opened my eyes about this kid's integrity. She's looking for meaningful work.

Yup.  Doing nothing sure seems like something until you are doing it.  I don't mind having one slow work day every now and again but beyond that, if I have to be here, I want to be busy with useful 'stuff'

[powskier]

As a fellow accounting wage slave this resonates with me as well.

Just think what kind of culture, music, science, ideas might result if all those people were liberated to do things they actually thought were important. So if the question is one of personal responsibility, I’d say: let’s just give everyone enough to live on, some sort of universal basic income, and say “okay, you’re all free now to decide for yourselves what you have to contribute to the world.”

Then, sure, we could say that people would be responsible for what they came up with. And sure, a lot of it would be nonsense. But it’s hard to imagine a full 40-50% would be doing nonsense, and that’s the situation that we have today. And if we get even one or two new Miles Davises or Einsteins or Freuds or Shakespeares out of the deal, I’d say we’d have more than made back our investment.

Isn't this one of the basic tenets of Marxism? From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs?

Pay everyone the same and since people can pursue what makes them happiest and most productive without worrying about needing the job with a good healthcare plan and a 401k match then all of society benefits? Of course in practice this fails due to jealousy that the Doctor who had to study for years makes as much as the slugabed poet.....

WGH  wow, you made quite a leap from UBI to Marxism.... no, UBI is simply making sure everyone has a base level of income, people are free to earn as much or as little as they want/are able after that. Think of it as social security for everyone at all stages of life ( or after 18 or however it is set up)
Marxism is a concept of no classes within society where the means of production and distribution are 100% owned by the state.

[cangelosibrown]

I have a bullshit job. Every job I've ever had has been a bullshit job. Honestly it doesn't bother me. Work that's annoying or tedious bothers me. Coworkers who are annoying or make my job more annoying or tedious bother me. The fact that I'm making large sums of money and creating no value for the world doesn't bother me. Typing it out like that, it seems like it should, but it doesn't.

 Now if I got to look someone in the eye and help that person as my job, that would be great. But most jobs that do provide value to the world aren't that. It would look exactly the same as my job, except there'd be a purpose to it. But that would be totally abstract and it would make no difference.

[Taran Wanderer]

The problem is not just bullshit jobs. My job has purpose and meaning and helps people and I do not consider it a bullshit job. Except over the last 10 to 20 years more and more bullshit elements have crept into the job. Bullshit time wasters. When I started 20+ years ago, there was little time spend on bullshit, now I spend more and more time doing bullshit so management can tick off certain boxes. I know someone at a small company doing similar work to mine who has remarkably little bullshit elements and I'm envious. Those damm golden handcuffs. OMY.

Straight out of college, I had a bullshit job. Then I went to a smaller company with a lot more freedom, and I made a huge difference over a number of years. Now that smaller company is a bigger company, and my job has a large degree of bullshit again. I can still make a difference, but oh! the bullshit I have to navigate to get anything done.  And like CoffeeR said, “Those damn golden handcuffs.”

[47%MMM]

Actually I think I have it worse. I’m a CPA that made the jump to corporate finance about fifteen years ago. In a nutshell I would say much of my job is pushing out reporting to senior leadership that will likely never be read. And building slideshow presentations to present to senior leadership and the board who look like they don’t care aren’t listening. And of course going to meetings and participating in work groups.
I’m actually hoping to startup my own bookkeeping and tax business next fall. It won’t pay anywhere close to what I make, but I think I would enjoy working directly with clients and maybe being able to help them with their finances.

Tax and Accounting here too.  I always tell coworkers that there is no such thing as an emergency in accounting, only poor planning.

Wow, and here I thought I was the only one living this life. This is also the reason I’m obsessed with FIRE.

[2sk22]

Great piece by the late David Packard (co-founder of Hewlett Packard)

https://fs.blog/2016/05/the-hp-way-david-packard/

The individual works, partly to make money, of course, but we should also realize that the individual who is doing a worthwhile job is working because he feels he is accomplishing something worthwhile. This is important in your association with these individuals. You know that those people you work with that are working only for money are not making any real contribution. I want to emphasize then that people work to make a contribution and they do this best when they have a real objective when they know what they are trying to achieve and are able to use their own capabilities to the greatest extent. This is a basic philosophy which we have discussed before— Management by Objective as compared to Management by Control.

[MoMan]

Yes. We were supposed to all be working part-time (if that) by now, as well as driving flying cars and having our homes cleaned by saucy, yet personable robot maids.

I'm definitely getting a French maid outfit for my Roomba.

[Linea_Norway]

I have a copy of the book in PDF.  If you want it, I can email to you.  Just drop me a PM.

Edit.
I've created a link in my dropbox with the pdf copy if anyone want.  I'll keep it active for a week or two.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/cyn65wbykpio9m6/AAB4t6sO_32_78qKXSaS12Oka?dl=0

Thanks for the book.

My job is maybe 50-75% bullshit and for the rest useful. Less than 6 months to go...

[wbranch]

I was a big 4 accounting firm intern and turned down job offer with the firm since it seemed like insane busy work to me. Worked at a local (10 CPAs - 20 employee) CPA firm for 7 busy seasons and it was much more rewarding. Still some BS aspects. But 6 weeks of vacation a year and no overtime outside of tax season. Left due to not liking the area and no chances of working remotely.

Then went to a F500 company division office in corporate finance to help with accounting standard changes and also had some month end close duties. Some of the work was enjoyable and felt productive - but there were tons of arbitrary deadlines and we went from a 7 day close to a 3 days close in about 6 months. The division had doubled in size/revenue/employees over about 8 years and corporate finance staff was cut in half. Mish mash of IT systems, 4 acquisitions in 3 years. Worked closely with the CFO and she was running herself into the ground. Felt bad for a lot of people there and left after one year.

Back at a local CPA firm for about a year now. The job/firm/clients definitely has issues like any other can but outside of tax season hours are good, about 5 weeks of annual vacation and will go up to 7 within 2 years. Debated going out on my own but having the resources of other CPAs/accountants in the office is nice.

Could easily be making 50%+ more working in a big metro area for a big company or CPA firm. But I know I would hate it.

[BeanCounter]

I was a big 4 accounting firm intern and turned down job offer with the firm since it seemed like insane busy work to me. Worked at a local (10 CPAs - 20 employee) CPA firm for 7 busy seasons and it was much more rewarding. Still some BS aspects. But 6 weeks of vacation a year and no overtime outside of tax season. Left due to not liking the area and no chances of working remotely.

Then went to a F500 company division office in corporate finance to help with accounting standard changes and also had some month end close duties. Some of the work was enjoyable and felt productive - but there were tons of arbitrary deadlines and we went from a 7 day close to a 3 days close in about 6 months. The division had doubled in size/revenue/employees over about 8 years and corporate finance staff was cut in half. Mish mash of IT systems, 4 acquisitions in 3 years. Worked closely with the CFO and she was running herself into the ground. Felt bad for a lot of people there and left after one year.

Back at a local CPA firm for about a year now. The job/firm/clients definitely has issues like any other can but outside of tax season hours are good, about 5 weeks of annual vacation and will go up to 7 within 2 years. Debated going out on my own but having the resources of other CPAs/accountants in the office is nice.

Could easily be making 50%+ more working in a big metro area for a big company or CPA firm. But I know I would hate it.

I never worked at a big four. I saw right out of college how abusive that system was and wanted no part of it. It might have taken me a little longer to move up to a director of finance positon but having a life in between was worth it.

Your experience supports my desire to leave corp finance and go to a small firm or on my own. I was looking at job listings yesterday and there were several part time firm positions that I think I could enjoy. I'm also considering just doing seasonal tax work with HR Block or something. Now that we are FI moving to these lower paying but possibly more enjoyable work is possible. I just need to earn a little travel money and hedge any steep market declines.

[cerat0n1a]

Very much enjoyed this book. Funny and thought-provoking.