Braces - Any harm in taking interest free financing if you can afford purchase?

[Virtus3]

I am looking into getting Invisalign to straighten my teeth and correct my bite. It's mostly for aesthetic reasons now but my dentist is worried that I will begin having issues in the future from crossbite and believes I will eventually need to have some sort of work done one way or the other. My dentist is an Invisalign provider but actually referred me out to an orthodontist to handle my case so I trust what he's telling me as he's not really benefiting from it.

I got the consult done and was told I am a good candidate; the orthodontist I chose (dentist gave a few options) is one of the top Invisalign providers in the country. He estimates my case will take 12-18 months total and his quote seems to be in line with what I've researched.

I could afford the treatment in cash (would get 5% discount paying total up front) but would take about half of my cash savings. They offer an interest free financing option where you select any term between 1-36 months with a $250 minimum down payment. I was thinking about doing this option with a $500-1k down payment and then just cash flowing the rest (I could cash flow it out of my HSA and get an effective ~15% discount this way).

I know this forum is against taking on debt but with it being interest free doesn't seem like it should be a problem. Only other debt wife and I have is our mortgage and one auto loan. If going this route is there any reason not to take the max term (36 months) for flexibility? I can make larger payments if I want and there is no penalty for early payoff.

Thoughts? Thanks!

[Metalcat]

This forum is not at all against using debt intelligently. There's an entire thread against paying off mortgages.

[bacchi]

Do it. If you're risk averse, put the rest of the payment in CDs (roll into them). You'll probably come out ahead of the 5% cash discount.

[soccerluvof4]

Do it. If you're risk averse, put the rest of the payment in CDs (roll into them). You'll probably come out ahead of the 5% cash discount.

Play the sad song and counter them with even more. Cash is king. See if they will give you 10% break. You might be surprised. Dont assume either your Dentist isnt getting anything . These guys do all sorts of referral paybacks etc..I am sure they would rather have your money at 10% less than to go somewhere else.

[Metalcat]

Do it. If you're risk averse, put the rest of the payment in CDs (roll into them). You'll probably come out ahead of the 5% cash discount.

Play the sad song and counter them with even more. Cash is king. See if they will give you 10% break. You might be surprised. Dont assume either your Dentist isnt getting anything . These guys do all sorts of referral paybacks etc..I am sure they would rather have your money at 10% less than to go somewhere else.

Not sure where you live, but I've never known a situation where it wasn't illegal for a dentist to get a kick back from a specialist for a referral.

Where are you getting your information?

[Virtus3]

Thanks for the responses.

Play the sad song and counter them with even more. Cash is king. See if they will give you 10% break. You might be surprised. Dont assume either your Dentist isnt getting anything . These guys do all sorts of referral paybacks etc..I am sure they would rather have your money at 10% less than to go somewhere else.

I was going to try to negotiate it down some before the final agreement and see what they say.

My dentist may get some sort of referral kick-back (I'm not really familiar with this practice) but he pretty much gave me the option of 3 orthodontists in our area and I chose the one I did because he is much more experienced than the others. Also, with my dentist being a provider as well he could've tried to handle the case himself which would've been much more valuable than whatever kick-back he may get.

Not my actual dentist but one of the partners of the practice is a friend of mine (we play hockey together) so I do trust they're looking out for my best interest for better or worse.

Thanks again!

[soccerluvof4]

Thanks for the responses.

Play the sad song and counter them with even more. Cash is king. See if they will give you 10% break. You might be surprised. Dont assume either your Dentist isnt getting anything . These guys do all sorts of referral paybacks etc..I am sure they would rather have your money at 10% less than to go somewhere else.

I was going to try to negotiate it down some before the final agreement and see what they say.

I'm sure that my dentist gets some sort of referral kick-back but he pretty much gave me the option of 3 orthodontists in our area and I chose the one I did because he is much more experienced than the others. Also, with my dentist being a provider as well he could've tried to handle the case himself which would've been much more valuable than whatever kick-back he may get.

Not my actual dentist but one of the partners of the practice is a friend of mine (we play hockey together) so I do trust they're looking out for my best interest for better or worse.

Thanks again!

Well thats good! and its okay too that they do get a referral fee why not. But i would give it a shot and just say hey, I'd really like to do this but for xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx reason can you knock of another xxxxx% and I will sign and lets move forward. I'd start at 10% and maybe you settle at 7 or 8%. Cant hurt.

[I'm a red panda]

Do it. If you're risk averse, put the rest of the payment in CDs (roll into them). You'll probably come out ahead of the 5% cash discount.

Play the sad song and counter them with even more. Cash is king. See if they will give you 10% break. You might be surprised. Dont assume either your Dentist isnt getting anything . These guys do all sorts of referral paybacks etc..I am sure they would rather have your money at 10% less than to go somewhere else.

Oddly, cash often isn't king.
Most places around here will NOT give a discount for cash. (Car dealers often try to raise a price when they find out you are paying cash... )   They make money off of financing.  Interest free financing earns them money when the 0% period runs out; many people won't have paid it off and get hit by high rates.

[onlykelsey]

The other thing to think about is your credit score, in case you anticipate needing debt in the near future (i.e. you use your HELOC as an emergency fund, or want to buy a new house this year). I am not sure how long your credit history is, but if you're young, your score might take a bit of a hit.

[jamaicaspanish]

We are just finishing an Invisalign treatment.
We paid up front, but used the bill to hit a minimum spend (for a bonus) on a new credit card.
$550 cash back on the cc ended up being the best discount we could get.

[frugalnacho]

My wife just had LASIK done in november and it was a similar situation.  No paid in full discount, but they offer 0% financing for 36 months (I think it was 36...).  If they are going to offer it we are going to jump on it and utilize it. 

We also both got invisalign around the new year 2018.  They offered 0% financing, or a 3% paid in full discount.  We ended up paying for the invisalign with an FSA account (me at the end of 2017, and her at the start of 2018) so we just paid in full for that reason.  We used this opportunity to get sign up bonuses for some new credit cards, then just reimbursed ourselves via the FSA.

Side note: citi ended up stiffing us on the sign up bonus claiming they didn't offer it to us when we signed up (they did).  Fuck citi, and make sure you document/screenshot the sign up offer when you sign up for a new cc in case they decide to renege like citi (aka shitty bank) did. 

[Prairie Moustache]

Glad someone posted about this, I'm in a similar situation. My bite is categorically farked. Due to the general variability and secrecy of treatment costs (at least here in Canada), I'm curious if anyone has done any shopping around for different pricing or if they've found that it's generally the same. I reckon it would be a bit of a pain because you'd have to pay a consultation fee, etc. each time. I'll feel like I'm just locked in with the single orthodontist that my dentist happened to recommend and I have no idea if the price they quoted is reasonable.

[Cranky]

If there’s a 5% discount for paying cash, then I’d say that the interest rate on the loan is really 5%.

[Virtus3]

Glad someone posted about this, I'm in a similar situation. My bite is categorically farked. Due to the general variability and secrecy of treatment costs (at least here in Canada), I'm curious if anyone has done any shopping around for different pricing or if they've found that it's generally the same. I reckon it would be a bit of a pain because you'd have to pay a consultation fee, etc. each time. I'll feel like I'm just locked in with the single orthodontist that my dentist happened to recommend and I have no idea if the price they quoted is reasonable.

I'm in the US and the ortho I saw is a Top 1% (VIP: Diamond) level provider. I was quoted $5980 which is basically all inclusive; it covers all treatments/refinements needed in a 5 year period, all visits and tests required over same time period, and 2 sets of retainers (bonded on bottom if I choose) at the end of treatment.

From my research it seems people requiring my level of correction end up in the $5-7k range. It seems there are some differences with HCOL vs LCOL areas and amount of competition but it doesn't seem to vary much.

[Prairie Moustache]

Glad someone posted about this, I'm in a similar situation. My bite is categorically farked. Due to the general variability and secrecy of treatment costs (at least here in Canada), I'm curious if anyone has done any shopping around for different pricing or if they've found that it's generally the same. I reckon it would be a bit of a pain because you'd have to pay a consultation fee, etc. each time. I'll feel like I'm just locked in with the single orthodontist that my dentist happened to recommend and I have no idea if the price they quoted is reasonable.

It's not secrecy, no one is trying to hide anything. It's that Ortho is as much an art as it is a science and different dentists will approach a case differently with different goals in mind. You can't know what they will charge until they individualize a plan for you and then give you a quote.

Trust me, they WISH that they could just train their receptionists to give you a quote over the phone and that would be that. They do not profit much off of the process of evaluation and quotes. If they could have a system that would stream line it, they would implement it. The obscurity of the finances of the system actually hurts orthodontists, it doesn't help them.

As inconvenient as it is for you to get a second opinion, it's just as inconvenient for them to be a second opinion. Every case work up that doesn't progress to actual treatment is a huge pain in the ass for them.

Ortho is complicated. It just is.

See emphasis in my original post above, I totally get that. It would be nice to have a range to refer to, or anything as a consumer that wants to be educated. I've checked out several orthodontist's websites in the area and it would be helpful to even put "treatment generally varies between "x" and "x" based on a treatment plan of x months and x sets, but may vary due to the complicated nature of the treatment".

[Metalcat]

Glad someone posted about this, I'm in a similar situation. My bite is categorically farked. Due to the general variability and secrecy of treatment costs (at least here in Canada), I'm curious if anyone has done any shopping around for different pricing or if they've found that it's generally the same. I reckon it would be a bit of a pain because you'd have to pay a consultation fee, etc. each time. I'll feel like I'm just locked in with the single orthodontist that my dentist happened to recommend and I have no idea if the price they quoted is reasonable.

It's not secrecy, no one is trying to hide anything. It's that Ortho is as much an art as it is a science and different dentists will approach a case differently with different goals in mind. You can't know what they will charge until they individualize a plan for you and then give you a quote.

Trust me, they WISH that they could just train their receptionists to give you a quote over the phone and that would be that. They do not profit much off of the process of evaluation and quotes. If they could have a system that would stream line it, they would implement it. The obscurity of the finances of the system actually hurts orthodontists, it doesn't help them.

As inconvenient as it is for you to get a second opinion, it's just as inconvenient for them to be a second opinion. Every case work up that doesn't progress to actual treatment is a huge pain in the ass for them.

Ortho is complicated. It just is.

See emphasis in my original post above, I totally get that. It would be nice to have a range to refer to, or anything as a consumer that wants to be educated. I've checked out several orthodontist's websites in the area and it would be helpful to even put "treatment generally varies between "x" and "x" based on a treatment plan of x months and x sets, but may vary due to the complicated nature of the treatment".

You should easily be able to get a range like that from a phone call. Granted, that range could be $2000-20,000 depending on the case.

[frugalnacho]

Glad someone posted about this, I'm in a similar situation. My bite is categorically farked. Due to the general variability and secrecy of treatment costs (at least here in Canada), I'm curious if anyone has done any shopping around for different pricing or if they've found that it's generally the same. I reckon it would be a bit of a pain because you'd have to pay a consultation fee, etc. each time. I'll feel like I'm just locked in with the single orthodontist that my dentist happened to recommend and I have no idea if the price they quoted is reasonable.

It's not secrecy, no one is trying to hide anything. It's that Ortho is as much an art as it is a science and different dentists will approach a case differently with different goals in mind. You can't know what they will charge until they individualize a plan for you and then give you a quote.

Trust me, they WISH that they could just train their receptionists to give you a quote over the phone and that would be that. They do not profit much off of the process of evaluation and quotes. If they could have a system that would stream line it, they would implement it. The obscurity of the finances of the system actually hurts orthodontists, it doesn't help them.

As inconvenient as it is for you to get a second opinion, it's just as inconvenient for them to be a second opinion. Every case work up that doesn't progress to actual treatment is a huge pain in the ass for them.

Ortho is complicated. It just is.

Ours charges a flat rate for the service.  Some patients get a better value because they end up needing more trays, more appointments, and more time.  It seems all cases are re-evaluated multiple times during the course of treatment, and they don't know exactly how long it will take or how many trays it will ultimately take because it depends on how your teeth respond.  We were given a range, and told it would be approximately 6-12 months, but it would be revised depending on the progress we made.

One weird thing is that I signed the paperwork and paid for my treatment in December 2017 and my wife in January 2018 (so I could utilize 2017 FSA and her the 2018 FSA).  We paid the same price although my insurance negotiated* "discount" was around $800, while my wife's was around $2000.  At the time I paid for my treatment I had no idea that switching insurance would have resulted in a bigger discount.  We didn't even switch insurance, just had to pick a new insurance plan from my employer for the 2018 year.  As far as I know the dental insurance was the exact same coverage with the exact same company, so I'm still confused by the difference.

*Insurance doesn't pay anything for orthodontics but apparently having insurance gets you the negotiated rates.   Doesn't make any fucking sense to me because the insurance doesn't pay anything to the dentist or have any involvement in orthodontics whatsoever so I don't understand how they are related at all.  It kind of pissed me off that I couldn't get any better of a deal from them, but 2 weeks later when my wife went she got a $1200 better discount at the dentist's expense, for no discernible reason other than that is what the computer spit out as the negotiated insurance discount.  You can't budge on my treatment for any reason, but 2 weeks later you are able to turn a profit while offering an additional $1200 discount? How does that make any sense?

[Prairie Moustache]

Yeah, I'll give that a shot. In the end, I think I'll trust the qualified professionals with what they're providing since I value my teeth quite a bit over saving a couple bucks. :)

[jgoody]

*Insurance doesn't pay anything for orthodontics but apparently having insurance gets you the negotiated rates.   Doesn't make any fucking sense to me because the insurance doesn't pay anything to the dentist or have any involvement in orthodontics whatsoever so I don't understand how they are related at all.  It kind of pissed me off that I couldn't get any better of a deal from them, but 2 weeks later when my wife went she got a $1200 better discount at the dentist's expense, for no discernible reason other than that is what the computer spit out as the negotiated insurance discount.  You can't budge on my treatment for any reason, but 2 weeks later you are able to turn a profit while offering an additional $1200 discount? How does that make any sense?

I'm a dentist.  Here's the way to look at the above situation - many patients choose their dentist/orthodontist based on who "accepts their insurance".  So the dentist/orthodontist agrees to these lower contracted fees and in exchange, a bunch of new patients who otherwise may have never considered their practice all of a sudden are calling for appointments.  In a lot of ways, it's just a variation on paying for advertising. 

As for other posters' speculation about kick-backs for referrals, those are illegal in every US state I'm aware of.  In my experience, it's just something that doesn't happen ever.

[frugalnacho]

It was our dentist.  We were both good candidates for invisalign with relatively straight forward treatments.  Candidates with more complicated treatment plans are referred to the orthodontist.

Yes billing with medical and dental is an absolute clusterfuck.  It's generally impossible to know what treatment costs will be ahead of time.   Often it's not clear how they came up with the costs even after the fact.  Even the people who work in billing are mystified as to how it all works.  My wife had some expensive dental work ($600-1000 I think) several years ago, and we never were able to get an actual estimate.  We went round and round with them trying to pin down what the expenses would be, and they were not confident in any estimate they gave us, and it changed multiple times every time they spoke with the insurance company.  It was frustrating.  It should be a relatively straight forward thing, you have X procedure done and it costs $X with insurance covering some fraction of it.  They have rules and it should be completely deterministic, but still somehow they aren't able to figure it out.  The advice from the insurance company was to just move forward with it and they would figure it out later.  My response was to just put the fucking procedure codes in and tell us the bill.  Whatever process you are going to do to determine the actual bill after the work is done...just do that now, it will be identical.  Just plug those in and tell me the fucking price since you already have the framework and it's completely deterministic!  They never did get us an accurate estimate and we moved forward anyway because she needed the dental work done asap anyway.

[frugalnacho]

*Insurance doesn't pay anything for orthodontics but apparently having insurance gets you the negotiated rates.   Doesn't make any fucking sense to me because the insurance doesn't pay anything to the dentist or have any involvement in orthodontics whatsoever so I don't understand how they are related at all.  It kind of pissed me off that I couldn't get any better of a deal from them, but 2 weeks later when my wife went she got a $1200 better discount at the dentist's expense, for no discernible reason other than that is what the computer spit out as the negotiated insurance discount.  You can't budge on my treatment for any reason, but 2 weeks later you are able to turn a profit while offering an additional $1200 discount? How does that make any sense?

I'm a dentist.  Here's the way to look at the above situation - many patients choose their dentist/orthodontist based on who "accepts their insurance".  So the dentist/orthodontist agrees to these lower contracted fees and in exchange, a bunch of new patients who otherwise may have never considered their practice all of a sudden are calling for appointments.  In a lot of ways, it's just a variation on paying for advertising. 

As for other posters' speculation about kick-backs for referrals, those are illegal in every US state I'm aware of.  In my experience, it's just something that doesn't happen ever.

Yes I get the concept of negotiated rates.  What I don't understand is why they would have negotiated rates for orthodontic work when the insurance company doesn't have anything to do with orthodontics.  Maybe some other plans offered by the insurance provider do have coverage for orthodontics and all plans get the same negotiated rates?  I don't know.

What is even crazier to me though is that the discount went from $800 to $2000 after only a few weeks.  I switched insurance plans at work for the new year, but as far as I know the dental didn't change.  It was still with delta dental, the cost to me was the same as 2017, and the coverage provided was identical to 2017 so I assumed it was the same plan.  Maybe it was a new plan, or maybe the contract between delta dental and my dentist got revised on Jan 1, 2018 because I am sure they must revise those negotiated rates at some point, but it seemed like it was a big jump.  Much bigger than I had expected.  I still needed to use my FSA balance for 2017, so I was going to do it anyway, but I could have waited a few weeks and gotten an additional $1200 discount apparently. 

[Dicey]

I was 100% self pay, so I negotiated 10% off for paying in full up front. Caveat: Make sure "in full" includes everything. Retainers, finsl X-rays, etc. Also, make sure there are no bullshit charges for breaking anything along the way. Finally, office atmosphere and activity level are something to consider. My ortho is a sole practitioner, has one assistant and one receptionist. I never wait. I love her and recommend her to everyone I can.

DH went to the ortho his dentist recommended, he did not want to shop around. It was a fucking factory. Never saw the same tech twice, constant turnover of office staff, lots of kids, extra charges for everything. Cost nearly three times what mine did. He had some insurance, so we paid in a couple of big chunks.

His ortho rushed him through treatment. Six months later, after dutifully wearing his retainers as directed and then some, he had to have them put on again. (He was not a candidate for invisalign.) Then a new set of retainers afterward. The ortho wanted to charge him for the new ones, but a polite and firm conversation was had. Needless to say, we do not recommend him.

That said, we're both pleased with the results and consider it a worthwhile investmant.

[Virtus3]

If I go the financing route; since it is 0% no matter term with no pre-payment penalty is there any reason not to go with the max term?

[Metalcat]

If I go the financing route; since it is 0% no matter term with no pre-payment penalty is there any reason not to go with the max term?

Math says math.

Of course there is no mathematical reason to not take the longest term possible at 0%.

[JoJo]

Do it. If you're risk averse, put the rest of the payment in CDs (roll into them). You'll probably come out ahead of the 5% cash discount.

Play the sad song and counter them with even more. Cash is king. See if they will give you 10% break. You might be surprised. Dont assume either your Dentist isnt getting anything . These guys do all sorts of referral paybacks etc..I am sure they would rather have your money at 10% less than to go somewhere else.

Oddly, cash often isn't king.
Most places around here will NOT give a discount for cash. (Car dealers often try to raise a price when they find out you are paying cash... )   They make money off of financing.  Interest free financing earns them money when the 0% period runs out; many people won't have paid it off and get hit by high rates.

This is true.  When I bought my car last year, I got a pretty big discount for financing because they got a kickback from the credit union that was trying to gain new members.  So I finanaced a minimal amount and now I get all kinds of new junk mail from the credit union to set up accounts, buy accidental death insurance, etc.

[Virtus3]

If there’s a 5% discount for paying cash, then I’d say that the interest rate on the loan is really 5%.

Good point! I contacted the office and was able to get a family discount applied which equaled about 4.5%. I financed the rest at 24 months; I can live with cash flowing the rest at 0.5% interest.

Thanks again for all of the responses.