The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: Southern Stashian on October 08, 2013, 01:20:01 PM
-
Hello!
I recently signed our son up for the Boy Scouts based on some feedback from friends, and I must say that I'm pretty impressed. They make them pay their dues monthly like a bill with their own money to build some financial responsibility, spend 100% of their time outdoors doing activities (except for meetings), plan, shop and prepare their own meals while camping and generate their own money for their trips every month.
Our son has taken to the scouts more than we anticipated. Although we have only been involved for a month now, we have already seen a change in him. He now stops to think before speaking out loud, spends an hour every night reading his Scout book and does his chores now without asking. Its also nice being so closely involved with something that he is enjoying so much.
Has anyone here been a Scout (Boy Scout or Girl Scout) and did it give you a good foundation for being more of a Mustachian later in life?
Thanks!
www.HavingFunInFlorida.com
-
Is this the only group/team activity your son is involved in? It sounds like he just found an activity to get excited about, not something that the Boy Scouts in particular are providing. That activity happens to involve time management and money skills - bravo to the troop leader on that one, it is not something my male friends ever had to do.
(Full disclosure: I disliked the Girl Scouts because they do nothing useful and even as a kid I chafed against traditional female expectations. My brother is an Eagle Scout but has thought about turning it in multiple times due to their anti-gay and anti-atheist/non-Christian policies. If you have a good troop leader it can be a rewarding experience, but that varies greatly).
-
Is this the only group/team activity your son is involved in? It sounds like he just found an activity to get excited about, not something that the Boy Scouts in particular are providing. That activity happens to involve time management and money skills - bravo to the troop leader on that one, it is not something my male friends ever had to do.
Thanks for the reply. No, he has been an active sports player (baseball and soccer) since age 4 (now 11), playing on the rec team while also playing with a travel team. He will be playing spring baseball this coming year but not participating with the travel team - too much to juggle with 3 kids.
I'm sorry about your bad experience with the Girl Scouts. We have been trying to get our daughter involved but they are so disorganized (at least here) that we've almost given up. We'll see what happens.
I know about the anti-gay thing with the Scouts, but really want to keep this topic focused on the good things that the Scouts do. I think that the Scouts offer a little more in needed life skills than what he has taken so far from sports based on some initial observations.
Thanks!
www.HavingFunInFlorida.com
-
I am an Eagle Scout and my son is a scout. Effective Jan 1, 2014, youth who are gay can be scouts, which I personally consider to be a positive step. That said, each troop, to some extent, has its own personality.
Scouts does foster self-reliance, an appreciation for the outdoors, and thriftiness.
One thing I like about Scouts is it fosters good character and achieving success, which can be done outside the context of winning and losing. It also has a mentality of membership and commitment instead of being a participant or free agent.
-
Question... do they require rituals like saying the pledge and other things like that, be it nationalistic or religious?
-
Question... do they require rituals like saying the pledge and other things like that, be it nationalistic or religious?
Part of the requirements for earning rank is being able to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, the Scout Law, etc.
I was a scout, I just signed my son up for Scouting last week. Looking forward to spending some time with him, bonding, teaching/learning, and generally spending quality time together.
-
It uses the pledge of allegiance a lot, and fosters a respect for the country and one of the 12 scout laws is Reverence. For completeness, the other 11 are trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, and clean. A scout troop will take on the personality of the area its members live in. A juvenile court judge I know says he has never seen a kid standing before him who was also active in Scouts.
-
When I worked at a high school, I learned another valuable skill that the boy scout instill: the ability to go against the grain and stick to something to achieve a goal. I saw a lot of high schoolers who were still in the scouts to get Eagle who got ragged on by their friends all the time. It's good to learn the importance of ignoring what people say and keeping your eye on the prize.
-
I was a Boy Scout briefly. I think that the process of consciously deciding to leave scouting contributed to having a good foundation for becoming (my personal version of) Mustachian later in life. But I think that most things undertaken thoughtfully (including being active in scouting) may end up being a good foundation for later life.
-
Question... do they require rituals like saying the pledge and other things like that, be it nationalistic or religious?
Bloody hell you make it sound like Hitler's youth!
I was a boy scout, and even though our group was affiliated with our local catholic school the leaders were never preachy with us. The Lord's prayer before meals was about all there was. Most kids wouldn't understand all the religious dogma anyway.
Best thing you could do for a kid is to sign them up for it. Especially since there is no badge earned for playing Xbox.
Also helps if they join a group that is not appended to their school. Having 2 sets of separate friendship groups is always a good thing.
-
Question... do they require rituals like saying the pledge and other things like that, be it nationalistic or religious?
Bloody hell you make it sound like Hitler's youth!
I was a boy scout, and even though our group was affiliated with our local catholic school the leaders were never preachy with us. The Lord's prayer before meals was about all there was. Most kids wouldn't understand all the religious dogma anyway.
Best thing you could do for a kid is to sign them up for it. Especially since there is no badge earned for playing Xbox.
Also helps if they join a group that is not appended to their school. Having 2 sets of separate friendship groups is always a good thing.
Oh bloody hell that's sounds dramatic! Lol.
Actually when my Dad's family left post WW2 Nazi Germany and came here, his Mother forbid to join the scouts for nationalistic reasons.
Sounds overall positive for the most part. There are aspects that I do like, more than not. There is the balance in our life to raise individuals in a world that wants people to blindly assimilate.
-
Like most quasi-military organizations, there are pros and cons. I liked the sense of community and cooperation and the leadership opportunities, but struggled with personality conflicts with some of the people involved, both scouts and adults.
I earned my eagle scout shortly before James Dale lost his court case. My troop had never been openly bigoted, but seeing the national program go down that road was disappointing. It was easy and natural to withdraw from the program when it became clear to me that they were teaching lots of great stuff, but only if you were the right kind of hateful.
NSFW musical illustration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDiC5iStnc8
Now, I have a 10 year old son who is transitioning from cub scouts to boy scouts. I'm still on the fence about how I feel about that. Scouting brought a lot of great things to my life and I think that as a parent I can mitigate much of the discriminatory message, but supporting the program again kind of feels like buying a membership at a whites-only country club. Just because it's awesome doesn't mean it's right.
-
I appreciate all of your replies. We just got back from a scout meeting tonight and it was great to see the boys with their rankings, delegating authority and guiding the younger less experienced scouts with their duties (my son included). It was refreshing to see young men taking on that responsibility and working as a team. The boys are 2.5 weeks away from a weekend canoe trip in North Florida and our son can't wait as it will be his first trip. We have loved spending this quality time together and there's nothing like bonding with your child.
I was never pushed into the scouts as I was an only child with crappy parents, and watching the boys tonight made me realize how much better of a person I could have been with that structure. It's a shame to see sexuality and religion trickle down to something that has helped so many young men. If someone asked my son what his sexuality or religion was, my answer (and his) would be "none of your business" and that would be the end of it. Take it or leave it.
In the end I think our son will take the things from the scouts that work best for him and forget the ones that don't - hopefully worrying about someones sexuality being one of the ones he forgets. I do the same with MMM and his posts - most of the information I can relate to but not necessarily all of it. In the end, its about becoming a better person and the scouts (and MMM) are things that will help him to become that better person in life.
www.HavingFunInFlorida.com
-
Now, I have a 10 year old son who is transitioning from cub scouts to boy scouts. I'm still on the fence about how I feel about that. Scouting brought a lot of great things to my life and I think that as a parent I can mitigate much of the discriminatory message, but supporting the program again kind of feels like buying a membership at a whites-only country club. Just because it's awesome doesn't mean it's right.
This is totally dependent on the scout troop, and the people therein. You cannot specifically condemn all scouting because of your experience with a particular troop or troops, and I'd encourage you to get to know the current troop leaders to see if you feel comfortable with their methods. You yourself know the benefits of the program, and if need be, you can always sign him up as a standalone scout... or you could even get a handbook and teach him yourself. I've actually considered doing this, as my point for bringing my son into it wasn't so I could drop him off once a week, it was to be able to spend time with him doing things that build character, with a group of like-minded families.
If you are looking to Scouting as a replacement for family quality time, then yes, it's a poor substitute. If you're looking into it as a shared activity, then I see nothing holding you back. This is my opinion, of course, and maybe in time I may come across circumstances to the contrary, but for now, I'm willing to give it a try.
I too have very fond memories of scouting as a child... and my father was one to drop me off every week. He rarely went on trips with me.
-
My oldest son is in scouts. He loves it, all his friends are in it, and his troop is pretty secular and non-church affiliated. He is worried about if he ever makes Eagle because he's agnostic (they ask about religion at the review board for the award), but we'll cross that bridge when/if we come to it. Scouts has been good for him, but he did have to try out several troops before he found one that fit him. Most were too religious or too disorganized for his taste. He is wrestling with the discrimination issue, but this is his decision so while we are here to advise, the choice to stay in scouting is his. Right now he leans toward the theory you can effect more change from within the organization. This may be actually true, because the recent loosening on gay discrimination was decided by vote of all scout employees, volunteers and parents.
My younger son tried scouts for several years and despised it. He did not find it challenging and the rituals struck him as plain silly. He instead wants to start a Hacker Scout chapter in our town, although I'm hesitant about taking on another volunteer responsibility. They are aimed at tech and science, and they are all inclusive, which is a major bonus. The Boy Scouts have been giving them grief about their name recently, although their program is nothing like the BSA, so they are changing it soon.
http://hacker-scouts.org (http://hacker-scouts.org)
-
I went through scouts as a kid. Our troop was mix gender.
A great foundation for learn self reliance, how to cook, how to clean, how to work as a team, how to fire a gun etc.
-
If you are looking to Scouting as a replacement for family quality time, then yes, it's a poor substitute. If you're looking into it as a shared activity, then I see nothing holding you back. This is my opinion, of course, and maybe in time I may come across circumstances to the contrary, but for now, I'm willing to give it a try.
I too have very fond memories of scouting as a child... and my father was one to drop me off every week. He rarely went on trips with me.
There are definitely "those parents" who you only see in the parking lot at the beginning and end of every meeting. That will never be me as thats not what the scouts are about. Last night there were two of the 13 year old scouts waiting in the dark parking lot at 9pm for their parents to arrive to pick them up.
With it being dark and a school night, I wasn't too happy with the parents when they arrived as we were not going to leave the boys there by themselves. Our kids are in bed by 8:30 every night so its a treat for our oldest to be out a little later, but those parents just plain suck in my eyes. I think our son appreciates our time together even more because he knows that I would never leave him alone like that.
www.HavingFunInFlorida.com
-
i'm cubmaster of my son's cub scout pack and have been for 3 years. (he's a bear) he likes it which is the only reason i do it. i am not an outdoorsy campy activity person, but i suck it up for me kid. i do like running the meeting so that's fun.
the den meetings don't allow parents in them, bc the kids get distracted and get nothing done ever. we do allow parents on field trips and all pre meeting and after meeting activities. and of course the parents should be guiding the "homework" since most of it is family activites
-
I was a Girl Scout for years as a kid, and my daughters are Girl Scouts now, and I think they have gotten a lot out of being scouts. Even in Daisy Scouts (kindergarten and first grade) they talk about money, and how many things costs money and you have to make choices about how to spend your money. I think it's a great activity.
My son is too young for Boy Scouts, but I hope he enjoys it and benefits from it as much as his sisters have from Girl Scouts.
-
(Full disclosure: I disliked the Girl Scouts because they do nothing useful and even as a kid I chafed against traditional female expectations. My brother is an Eagle Scout but has thought about turning it in multiple times due to their anti-gay and anti-atheist/non-Christian policies. If you have a good troop leader it can be a rewarding experience, but that varies greatly).
I'm sorry you didn't like the Girl Scouts as a kid. I am a Girl Scout leader and I can tell you that there is a huge emphasis now on developing leadership skills in girls, outdoor experiences, and STEM activities. Like you said, the troop leader sets the tone for the troop. I don't know when you were a girl scout, but may it have been that your leaders themselves were perpetuating "traditional female expectations"? I was a Girl Scout 30 - 35 years ago, and I don't really remember our troop doing much, either. ;-)
In my mind the Girl Scout program now is much more in line with the program when Juliette Gordon Lowe founded Girl Scouts 101 years ago -- teach girls practical skills and teach them to be independent. The Girl Scout awards (Bronze, Silver, and Gold, Gold being the equivalent of an Eagle Scout) are leadership and service projects that the girls have to formulate and perform themselves. Outside of those awards, Girl Scouts Leadership Experience encourages girls to "Discover, Connect, Take Action."
Just as an aside, I share your concerns about the "anti-gay and anti-atheist/non-Christian policies" of the Boy Scouts, and am proud to say that the Girl Scouts antidiscrimination policy is very simple: The Girl Scouts do not discriminate against anyone for any reason. Also, there is an asterisk in the Girl Scout Promise: "On my honor I will try to serve God* and my country, to help people at all times, and to live by the Girl Scout Law." The asterisk says that each girl defines "God" in her own way.
Back to the original question:
I'm not sure that either Boy or Girl Scouts are mustachian. Neither one is free or inexpensive. Also, depending on the leadership of the troop, there can be too much of an emphasis on collecting badges and patches just to have them, rather than an emphasis on learning and experiences.
-
If you are looking to Scouting as a replacement for family quality time, then yes, it's a poor substitute. If you're looking into it as a shared activity, then I see nothing holding you back. This is my opinion, of course, and maybe in time I may come across circumstances to the contrary, but for now, I'm willing to give it a try.
I too have very fond memories of scouting as a child... and my father was one to drop me off every week. He rarely went on trips with me.
There are definitely "those parents" who you only see in the parking lot at the beginning and end of every meeting. That will never be me as thats not what the scouts are about. Last night there were two of the 13 year old scouts waiting in the dark parking lot at 9pm for their parents to arrive to pick them up.
With it being dark and a school night, I wasn't too happy with the parents when they arrived as we were not going to leave the boys there by themselves. Our kids are in bed by 8:30 every night so its a treat for our oldest to be out a little later, but those parents just plain suck in my eyes. I think our son appreciates our time together even more because he knows that I would never leave him alone like that.
Props to you for not being one of those parents.
-
I was a boy scout for many years and have lots of great memories of those days. I think for city kids especially it can be helpful to get out in nature for a weekend. I agree about the "accomplishment" without winning/losing aspect. That's also why I like solo "sports" like golf, hiking, skiing, etc.
We have a son on the way and I would encourage him to join the Scouts but like others, I'll do my best to mitigate the anti-gay, anti-anti-religion nonsense and if he ever gets discriminated against for any reason, that would be the end of it. Our troop was never bigoted but then again we were all white, privilged, straight (as far as I knew) kids. I also don't remember religion being shoved down our throats but I do feel conflicted supporting an organization that has those beliefs.
-
I was a boy scout for many years and have lots of great memories of those days. I think for city kids especially it can be helpful to get out in nature for a weekend. I agree about the "accomplishment" without winning/losing aspect. That's also why I like solo "sports" like golf, hiking, skiing, etc.
We have a son on the way and I would encourage him to join the Scouts but like others, I'll do my best to mitigate the anti-gay, anti-anti-religion nonsense and if he ever gets discriminated against for any reason, that would be the end of it. Our troop was never bigoted but then again we were all white, privilged, straight (as far as I knew) kids. I also don't remember religion being shoved down our throats but I do feel conflicted supporting an organization that has those beliefs.
I don't mind supporting a Christian org, as long as it isnt preachy or openly pushy. That and the potential flag worship are my only two reservations. I like everything else about what I'm hearing.
-
I was in girl scouts and they prepared me for life by teaching me how to make beaded jewelry. Seriously! Pathetic.
My older brother was in boy scouts and I basically used his book and did everything he did, but behind the scenes. Not nearly as fun.
Generally, the boy scouts are a good organization, except for the anti-gay thing. I find it strange that gay teens are allowed and 'accepted' now, but as soon as they turn 18, they are not fit for their organization.
-
I don't mind supporting a Christian org, as long as it isnt preachy or openly pushy. That and the potential flag worship are my only two reservations. I like everything else about what I'm hearing.
Good point, and I should clarify that I don't either. I just checked out our local troops and it appears most of them are held in churches around here. When I was a kid, pack meetings were held at the den leader's house but that was in a small town.
I also didn't really answer the original question re: scouts/mustachian. Did it help? Maybe. I don't really recall any meetings or badges related to money though. I would imagine it came more from my parents than scouts but it's not like scouts makes you want to spend more money.
-
I was in girl scouts and they prepared me for life by teaching me how to make beaded jewelry. Seriously! Pathetic.
I was in Girl Guides, and it taught me how to be away from my family without homesickness, that if I learned how to cook the food would taste better (and that eggs and toast also can be turned into french toast and vice versa), how to fix small tears in fabric, that I could carry a canoe for 2km if I persevered and used good form, how to do sales, and how to build 12' high bonfires.
The last is the only one that hasn't had a good use since.
It really depends on the leaders. And the other parents. And what the other girls in the group are up for.
-
I was a scout for a number of years. Someone said paramilitary, and there are indeed some vestiges of that. However, I got a lot out of it and learned a lot. It is likely that a lot of my character and innate tendencies would have been substantially the same, but the order, responsibility and rules that scouting emphasized definitely resonated with me. Growng up in the 5 boros of NYC, it was also a great way to develop a love of the outdoors.
The anti-gay/discriminatory tendencies of the central scouting bodies are definitely distasteful. That said, I saw none of that in my troop and I think it really depends on the specific troop/leaders. I don't have any boys, so I never had to decide what to do. My younger daughter is just getting started with Brownies in a troop DW is starting up.
-
Effective Jan 1, 2014, youth who are gay can be scouts.
-
I don't mind supporting a Christian org, as long as it isnt preachy or openly pushy. That and the potential flag worship are my only two reservations. I like everything else about what I'm hearing.
I'm not sure what you mean by "flag worship." I grew up in cub and boy scouts and at least in my troop and other troops that I was familiar with didn't worship flags. There is a sense of reverence that is taught towards flags in general and particularly the American flag. You treat the flag with respect by folding it a certain way, not letting it touch the ground, and a ceremony to retire the flag when it's lifespan is over. It is by no means "worship" only being reverent towards the American flag out of respect for our founding fathers and all of the men and women who have lost their lives defending our country and those who defend it today.
For those who are misguided, the definition of reverence is "honor or respect felt or shown." http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reverence
Worship is defined as "the act of showing respect and love for a god"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship
Worship is showing reverence towards a god. Showing reverence towards a flag is not in and of itself worship. It only becomes worship when that person thinks the flag is some god. It's a clear distinction.
If other troops that I'm not aware of did teach boys to actually worship a flag, then yeah, that's completely asinine, and you should likely avoid that troop.
As others have already said, each troop is heavily influenced by the scout leaders, and I encourage you to get to know the potential scout leaders and be involved.
-
+1 on totally depends on the troop (as well as the interests of the scout). I learned to change the oil in a car for a girl scout badge, but there were other troops in my area who seemed to be filled with aspiring actresses getting makeovers together. Some girl scout troops give a good dose of feminist self-reliance, others seem to just promote female stereotypes.
As I've grown older, I've become more wary of uniforms and rituals (and my husband won't touch either) so doubtful our kids will be - unless of course, there happens to be a troop of amazing individuals in our area.
-
I was a Girl Scout, all the way through to Gold Award. It was a great experience for me--lots of camping, leadership opportunities, and good experience in developing and executing a plan (for all kinds of projects).
My Girl Scout leader was a wonderful, very dedicated woman, and I owe her quite a debt of gratitude.
-
In re-reading my post, I realized that I didn't answer the original question: Is Scouts a good foundation for a becoming Mustachian? My answer to that is I don't know, but it doesn't matter, because there are other things about Scouts that mean we don't participate. The rest of this post is off-topic, so jump off here if that doesn't interest you.
We did Scouts with our two boys for several years, because my husband was an Eagle Scout and has positive memories of it. Also, we live in the city and wanted the outdoorsy aspect for our boys. It has way more religious undertones and patriotism than we are comfortable with (and far less outdoorsy stuff than we thought), and when they re-affirmed their bias against gay leaders, we felt like we had to stop supporting the organization. I had had a conversation with a neighbor 15 years ago who is supportive of gay rights and kept her son in the scouts back then in order to "change the organization from within." Fifteen years is enough time to change from within on this issue as far as I'm concerned.
I think Scouts does a lot of good for a lot of people, but it does not align with our values and that was bothering me more and more as time went on. Aside from the gay discrimination issue, I am not for blind patriotism, and I think teaching kids any pledge falls in this camp, as they are too young to know what they are saying and to understand the issues. I try to teach my kids they have a responsibility to their family, their community, their country, and their world, but they do not owe allegiance to anybody.
I know many do not share my sentiments, so I'm not suggesting organizations like the scouts should not exist, but they are not for me.
-
I did girl scouts when I was a child through my teen years and it was a great experience for me and definitely very mustachian. We went camping, hiking, cross country skiing, kayaking, learned how to build a fire, learned how to cook on one, learned how to waterproof tents, how to navigate to places, etc. Our budget for the whole year was from cookie sales so we had to figure out how we wanted to use our money too. That usually resulted in camping and cooking on the fire! I think one year when we had extra money we went out to eat at a restaurant once and it felt like the biggest luxury :) We even did this past the point where our peers were spending their weekends at the mall and on the phone, which I think was an awesome experience for me as a teenage girl. (I of course did the mall thing too, but this taught me how much I loved the outdoor stuff!)
I don't remember girl scouts having any religious or odd philosophical undertones, at least that I noticed. It was about leadership, helping others, personal growth, money management, learning new skills, etc. My core group of friends growing up were from girl scouts and those friendships lasted into adulthood. Interestingly, they are all people who have somewhat 'mustachian' values today!
-
unless of course, there happens to be a troop of amazing individuals in our area.
You could start one of them, no? We wanted to get DD #2 into brownies, but tehre were no openings in the local troops. DW decided to take the bull by the horns and start up her own troop. it is not that hard and the other parents have so far jumped to help. We are early in the process, but so far, so good. Once I kick the day job to the curb in January, I plan to become as involved as I am allowed.
-
I did a whole lot with Boy Scouts. I am an Eagle scout and I worked at a scout camp for 3 summers teaching knots, cooking, wilderness survival and other things. Scouts was very mustacian for me in the long term because all of my major interests center around playing in the outdoors using people power vs any number of other more expensive things I could be doing.
As for my future kids, I'd love for them to do scouts in addition to family camping experiences however I don't think I'll ever want to be the leader. You know when you did sports as a kid and the coach was a parent for one of the kids on the team? That kid got very very different things out of the sport than I want my kids to get out of activities. I feel like if I were a leader in my children's troop, then I'd be taking away some of the independence lessons that I learned in scouts because my parents were "those parents" who dropped me off and picked me up 2 hours later.
-
Effective Jan 1, 2014, youth who are gay can be scouts.
...depending on the troupe.
They still can't be atheist.
Leaders still cannot be gay or atheist.
I had a bad scouting experience, but I don't think my experience was typical. My scoutmaster was a hard ass German with serious family issues. (He shot and killed his son in self defense several years later.) But it sucked because of him.
-
Can they be agnostic?
-
Can they be agnostic?
From what I read, no. But that probably depends on if they are theist agnostic or atheist agnostic. (Agnostic is just the belief that it religious questions are unknowable. There are theists that hold agnostic beliefs.)
-
Can they be agnostic?
No, they cannot be agnostic. The BSA will discriminate against you if you cannot publicly profess a belief in a monotheistic supreme deity.
Lots of folks skate under the radar, though, just like lots of gay kids did. Many local troops are less bigoted than the National Council, and will either not ask or will let you hedge your answer, because they believe in the rest of the program more than they support discrimination.
Both the gay thing and the atheist thing were much less of a problem before the ascendancy of the Mormon church in national leadership roles. Talk about change from within, they kind of co-oped the whole program. These days they're about 15% of all scout troops, but a higher percentage of positions high up in the food chain.
-
Both the gay thing and the atheist thing were much less of a problem before the ascendancy of the Mormon church in national leadership roles. Talk about change from within, they kind of co-oped the whole program. These days they're about 15% of all scout troops, but a higher percentage of positions high up in the food chain.
I don't have much insight into the Mormon church, but I can state emphatically that where I live (southern Bible belt area) the atheist/gay thing is a big deal.
Personally: it bothered me a lot when the boy scouts were a federally funded organization. To my (limited) understanding, they are no longer federally funded and are much more of a private organization. I think private organizations have "the right to be stupid." I put this in the same category as the right for the KKK to exist and decide upon who joins (but at a much, much lower level of hate).
-
I don't mind supporting a Christian org, as long as it isnt preachy or openly pushy. That and the potential flag worship are my only two reservations. I like everything else about what I'm hearing.
I'm not sure what you mean by "flag worship." I grew up in cub and boy scouts and at least in my troop and other troops that I was familiar with didn't worship flags. There is a sense of reverence that is taught towards flags in general and particularly the American flag. You treat the flag with respect by folding it a certain way, not letting it touch the ground, and a ceremony to retire the flag when it's lifespan is over. It is by no means "worship" only being reverent towards the American flag out of respect for our founding fathers and all of the men and women who have lost their lives defending our country and those who defend it today.
For those who are misguided, the definition of reverence is "honor or respect felt or shown." http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reverence
Worship is defined as "the act of showing respect and love for a god"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship
Worship is showing reverence towards a god. Showing reverence towards a flag is not in and of itself worship. It only becomes worship when that person thinks the flag is some god. It's a clear distinction.
If other troops that I'm not aware of did teach boys to actually worship a flag, then yeah, that's completely asinine, and you should likely avoid that troop.
As others have already said, each troop is heavily influenced by the scout leaders, and I encourage you to get to know the potential scout leaders and be involved.
He obviously meant the 4th definition on the very page you linked to:
"extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem"
And from your description it does indeed seem like "flag worship" by that definition was a pretty integral part of your Boy Scout experience.
-
Sorry to the OP, but this is more for the others who have expressed concern about some of BSA's ideologies. I, too, have those concerns so I was very happy to learn of BPSA http://bpsa-us.org/ Their website says,
"Scouting for Youth and Adults, Boys and Girls
Scouting is one of the best programs for developing character, improving resourcefulness, and learning responsibility and skills in public service; and BPSA believes this program should be available to everyone, youth and adult, boy and girl."
They are not affiliated with Boy Scouts of America or Girl Scouts of the USA but they are affiliated with the World Federation of Independent Scouts.
They are all about "traditional scouting" which to them means doing great stuff outdoors, especially in nature, and community service, as well as promoting good citizenship, discipline, self-reliance, loyalty, and useful skills.
I especially like that the troops are NOT sexually segregated. And of course, that they aren't bigots, sexual-orientation or religious-views wise.
-
I will readily agree that there is a patriotic element to the boy scouts. I go a big floppy wobbler over displays of patriotism and mass, unthinking displays frankly make me uncomfortable. Years of Catholic school and boy scouts allowed me the opportunity to see this stuff and decide for myself what I thought about it. If you are a parent and find other things about scouting of value, think of it as a "teachable moment."
-
There were aspects of scouting (national policies and local cliques) that did not appeal to us. But on the original question of laying a foundation for mustachianism, I can say that 4-H certainly did that for my son. 4-H emphasizes hands on learning. For my son this included electrical projects and sewing as well as all of the group oriented activities (Robotics club, ski trips, community service projects). Additionally 4-H emphasizes oral presentations of what one has learned.
Of course, much of this is community dependent. But I would encourage parents to investigate 4-H for their kids. They'll find it is more than livestock--and no popcorn sales! (Or is selling overpriced Boy Scout popcorn a regional thing?)
-
I know a lot of the replies have been focused on the issues with the scouts stance on religion and homosexuality, but I cant fault the local chapter that we are involved with as there are some great people running it. Its too bad that a great program geared towards teaching children to be responsible and well rounded is tainted by people and their agendas.
Even though we have our meetings every week at a local church, not once has religion came up in any conversation. I have a pretty open mind and have no issues with meeting at a church every week and having to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.
Paying respect to your country and its flag is a given to me. I did it as a kid too and turned out just fine. I can sort out the other junk and focus on what we came to the scouts to accomplish - learn some important life skills, build friendships and get outdoors - and do it together father and son.
We have a spaghetti dinner fundraiser this afternoon at the church and the boys (and some parents) will be the service crew, helping the setting up, serving and breaking down of the event. My employer is also paying for me to be there as I have 8 hours of community service allowance from them to use by the end of the year. I cant wait to see our son in action and the importance of him learning how others (in this case service workers) work hard to provide others their meals in a restaurant like environment.
I was also very impressed that he woke up at 7am today to start cleaning the bathroom and get his room straightened up as he was excited about the fundraiser today and couldn't sleep anymore. He said he wanted to impress Mom by being proactive with his responsibilities. I was proud to hear that!
Anyway, so far so good with the scouts. I think anything is what you make of it, and the nonsense with the issues mentioned above will be non issues with us. As long as we stick to our values as a father and son team, I think we'll be ok.
www.HavingFunInFlorida.com
-
On a troop level, both Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts really do depend on parent leaders, and the quality of the experience depends on the ability and interest of the leaders. I also was a Girl Scout all the way through Gold, and I feel bad when I hear of women who had bad experiences, either due to social issues or leaders who didn't make sure everyone got a chance to do things they liked. Unfortunately, it can be hard to change troops because there are never enough adults to serve as leaders. One thing I do like about the Girl Scouts, aside from the fact that their only criteria to belong is to be a girl (or to be identified by parents as a girl), is that they feel a real sense of responsibility to help their girls do well in life. Both the Council I grew up in and the one where I live in now have a lot of girls in poverty and try really hard to equip the girls with soft and hard skills and opportunities they wouldn't otherwise have. Back when GSUSA was founded, women didn't even have the vote and had a lot of legal and social handicaps. The organization has a long history of trying to open doors for girls.
-
Has anyone here been a Scout (Boy Scout or Girl Scout) and did it give you a good foundation for being more of a Mustachian later in life?
We're less sexist in Australia (?) and we just have plain old genderless Scouts. I was a Scout for about 9 years. I agree with Zinnie, in that although there's an undertone of religion (I promise to do my best, to do my duty, to my God & to the Queen of Australia), and we had to do a little mini-church thing on the Sunday of a camp.. It wasn't full on, and I think that definitely came down to our leaders.
But Scouts was definitely good for me - it was outdoors, full of friends (still lasting 'til today!), and I learnt many valuable skills such as campcraft, first aide, and water safety. Not sure exactly how it relates to Moustachianism, but meh.
-
I was never a scout but I have to throw in a vote for 4H here. Contrary to a lot of people's belief you do not have to have farm animals to be in 4H. I learned a wide variety of skills through it, from sewing and cooking to running a meeting and banking, they emphasized record keeping too... Which I was never any good at but wished I'd learn better. We recited the 4H pledge at every meeting "I pledge my head to clearer thinking, my heart to greater loyalty, my hands to larger service, and my health to better living for my cub my community my country and my world"
-
I was never a scout but I have to throw in a vote for 4H here. Contrary to a lot of people's belief you do not have to have farm animals to be in 4H. I learned a wide variety of skills through it, from sewing and cooking to running a meeting and banking, they emphasized record keeping too... Which I was never any good at but wished I'd learn better. We recited the 4H pledge at every meeting "I pledge my head to clearer thinking, my heart to greater loyalty, my hands to larger service, and my health to better living for my cub my community my country and my world"
I love that pledge! I never knew these great things about 4-H. I thought it was just for raising pigs and the like, honestly. Thanks for the info.
-
Has anyone here been a Scout (Boy Scout or Girl Scout) and did it give you a good foundation for being more of a Mustachian later in life?
We're less sexist in Australia (?) and we just have plain old genderless Scouts. I was a Scout for about 9 years. I agree with Zinnie, in that although there's an undertone of religion (I promise to do my best, to do my duty, to my God & to the Queen of Australia), and we had to do a little mini-church thing on the Sunday of a camp.. It wasn't full on, and I think that definitely came down to our leaders.
But Scouts was definitely good for me - it was outdoors, full of friends (still lasting 'til today!), and I learnt many valuable skills such as campcraft, first aide, and water safety. Not sure exactly how it relates to Moustachianism, but meh.
We have genderless scouts here in Cambridge MA as well. It breaks down to about 3/4 boys and 1/4 girls in my son's troop. The city has several Girl Scout troops too, but these girls prefer to be Cub Scouts and the troop welcomes them. The undertone of religion was barely noticeable last year, but this year there is a badge based on "ways we worship" and I have to admit, it makes me uncomfortable. The scout leader has been quick to emphasize that it doesn't have to relate to God (many families in the troop are atheist or agnostic) but the word "worship" simply isn't something I would ever choose to describe how I relate to anything in my life. However, my son loves the activities and we both like the other families, so I've resigned myself that it's just one of those things I'll need to figure out how to make fit.
-
Related news from here in the UK...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-24434510
Modernising scouting is essential if it's going to survive.
The Scout Association in the UK has announced an alternative version of its membership promise for young people who do not believe in God.
and
This is the first time the scout movement has introduced a promise for new members who are atheists - although alternatives to the core promise have existed for nearly 50 years for Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists.
Hindus and Buddhists are currently permitted to refer to "my Dharma" in the scout promise, while Muslims can refer to Allah.
Is that last bit the same in the US?
-
Why does religion (or lack of) have to be involved anyway...isn't that what church is for?
I like 4H in that regard.
-
Why does religion (or lack of) have to be involved anyway...isn't that what church is for?
I like 4H in that regard.
+1
We have had a great week with the scouts. We had a fundraiser at the church for the troop, but not once was being a member or joining it brought up. Everyone was really laid back and nice, with the parents of the boys not focused on religion which was a relief.
The boys (and some parents including me) served @ 175 people and did everything from setting it up to breaking it down and all of the cleanup. They definitely learned some food and customer service skills while doing it. My employer also let me use some of my community service time that they provide and paid me for being there. Gotta love that!
Today our son had his Boy Scout swimming certification at a local pool. We arrived to find out that it was going to be twice the distance that he expected to swim. He did so well that he inspired me to do it with him and we both passed! I have been having such a great time with him and the scouts that I'm now considering becoming an assistant scout master with another guy who is a recently retired Army Ranger. We'll see.
I'm finding that I'm really enjoying the Boy Scouts and its possibly due to becoming more Mustachien over time. Just like our future early retirement that took us a while to get on board with, being involved in the scouts is something that I missed as a child, but its possibly more enjoyable now as its with my son and the pressure of debt and money isn't looming over us. Either way, we're having a great time together.
www.HavingFunInFlorida.com
-
Why does religion (or lack of) have to be involved anyway...isn't that what church is for?
I like 4H in that regard.
In my area: the churches are generally the sponsors for scouts.
-
As others have said, so much depends on the individual troop. My scouting experience was great and a time I look back on very fondly. I'm in my mid 30's and still include Eagle Scout on my resume bc it was a big deal and took a lot or work to get. My first job interview consisted of a discussion of scouts that ended with a job offer. I'm also gay. So I have had my struggles with how and if to continue my support for the scouts. I'm glad to see they are becoming more inclusive and with time I'm sure it will get even better. I was approached about being a leader and quickly said that as a gay man I cannot do that. I also display an Eagle Scout plaque in my office where I'm also out. Acceptance is driven by more people understanding.
To the original question, scouts can teach some great life tools that fit with MMM very well, self reliance, money management, do it yourself projects, etc.
-
As others have said, so much depends on the individual troop. My scouting experience was great and a time I look back on very fondly. I'm in my mid 30's and still include Eagle Scout on my resume bc it was a big deal and took a lot or work to get. My first job interview consisted of a discussion of scouts that ended with a job offer. I'm also gay. So I have had my struggles with how and if to continue my support for the scouts. I'm glad to see they are becoming more inclusive and with time I'm sure it will get even better. I was approached about being a leader and quickly said that as a gay man I cannot do that. I also display an Eagle Scout plaque in my office where I'm also out. Acceptance is driven by more people understanding.
To the original question, scouts can teach some great life tools that fit with MMM very well, self reliance, money management, do it yourself projects, etc.
Glad to hear that you had a great experience with the scouts despite their stance with homosexuality. Its a shame that someone is judged for who they are naturally versus what they contributed to the scouts (in your case becoming an Eagle), but like you I can appreciate it for the positive things that are gained from becoming a scout.
I would hope that the stance with gays is something that is not widespread throughout the organization, and just an agenda of a small group of closed minded people. If religion or homosexuality comes up to me tonight during our sit down about becoming an assistant scout master, I don't think that they will like my answer.
I just want to keep it about the boys and building and strengthening relationships, not what my preferences in religion and sexuality are - which is no ones business but mine.
I can see so many things in the scouts being inline with MMM - personal responsibility, being outdoors, helping others, money management, health and fitness and spending quality time with family .... among others. I just hope that personal choices don't get in the way of a so far great experience.
www.HavingFunInFlorida.com
-
Another Canadian perspective: (sorry, long, memories)
I didn't find my Girl Guides experience (a long time ago) or my daughter's Scouting experience to be particularly mustachian. Guides and Scouts both emphasized doing things instead of buying things, so the basic is there. They were interesting in other ways. And as others have posted, a lot depends on the local leaders.
I did Sparks and Brownies in one town, they were fun and we did lots of camping. We moved as I was moving up to Guides, and that lasted only a year, the fun (to me) parts were gone, we sat around and did semi-girlie things. Back then (look at my name and do the arithmetic) shopping was not a past-time.
My daughter went into Beavers the first year Scouting in Canada went genderless - this was new and exciting and a bit scary to some, so we had two groups, one took in girls and the other stayed boys only, for the ones who wanted to stay an all-boys group. Same for Cubs. I was a leader for Beavers and Cubs (call me Akela). My daughter tried Sparks and Brownies, too girly. But again, local leaders - a friend was recruited as a Guide leader and lasted less than a year, because in our area the leaders didn't want to do the camping and so on. I did all the nature stuff with my groups that she had wanted to do for the Guides, so it is a matter of priorities. However, Scouting pushed it - in leader training courses (Woodbadge) we were told repeatedly to remember the OUT in ScOUting - get outside. And we did - one year for Beavers (ages 5-7) we were outside for all four February meetings; temperatures ranged from +2C to -20C.
Re the original poster's issues - we met for Beavers in a church hall, for Cubs and Scouts in a school gym - basically whatever was available in the community. No church involvement as such - hey, we were in Quebec, where even in a small "white-bread" town like ours there was lots of diversity. I don't know if Scouts Canada has any sort of religious or gender orientation policy, it certainly never came up in training. We did have the "god and country" in the oath, but that was pretty generic. We did some things that were standard when I was young but are not now - we raised the flag and sang the anthem at the start of Cubs meetings (not Beavers, too young). Most had never raised a flag, and most didn't know the words for the anthem - I did at 8, but back then we sang the anthem at school assemblies. As good Canadian Cubs we always did the anthem bilingually ;-)
Also, there should be training available to new leaders, and it is really worthwhile to push it. I learned a lot in my training courses, they definitely made me a better leader. I even used meeting planning for my daughter's birthday party one year, and it went really well.
My best memory of Scouts Canada's attitude was when my daughter came back from a Scouting jamboree, and told me all the fun things she had done with some Scouts from BC. When she showed me pictures I realized the two she hung out the most with were of Chinese/Japanese origin - and this was so non-newsworthy that she never mentioned it.
Actually, the Baden-Powell Scouting in the US looks a lot like what we did.
For me the best part for both Guides and Scouts was the camping, being out in the wild, doing nature-oriented things. If anyone is interested I can post a list of things we did.
-
My siblings and I were all involved in scouting when we were kids, and my children have been involved in scouting. It's been very good for all of us. I genuinely use something that I learned (or had reinforced) in scouting each and every day.
The key, however, is understanding that every troop isn't equal. Some leaders are really great, seek out wonderful opportunities for their kids, plan good trips and service projects . . . and others just bring in coloring pages. You'll find some troops that are very outdoorsy, others who focus on trips, others who are crafty. As a parent, it's incumbent upon you to ask about what the troop has done in past years and determine whether this is a troop that fits your child's needs. You can do this by asking the council office or the service unit for specifics beyond, "This is a troop for 4th-6th graders and it meets on Tuesdays." Also pay attention to the meeting place. In our area we have two churches that are VERY supportive of scouting, who provide excellent meeting rooms, storage closets, etc. The best, most active leaders tend to be in these spots.
As for the money, scouting is pretty low-cost compared to other kids' activities. When my children took gymnastics, it was something like $60/month . . . in contrast, scouting costs more like $100/year. Of course, that's off-set by fund raisers, but scout fund raisers are supposed to be activities that actively involve the kids -- for example, car washes, yard sales, or yard clean ups -- instead of sales of candy bars and wrapping paper. Of course, this is going to depend heavily upon the leader and the troop into which you happen to fall. Some troops do trips to Build-a-Bear and other expensive places, while others take part in near-free activities like touring the Post Office. Again, it's all about making sure you get into a troop that supports your values.
The one exception, of course, is Girl Scout cookies. Someone commented that the girls only keep a small portion of the cookie sales. This is true, but not really complete: Cookies (in my area) sell for a whopping $4 per box. The scout troop itself keeps .75 of each box, and the girls can use that for a camping trip or a service project or whatever. That sounds bad. BUT the council office keeps something like $2 from each box, and when you're talking about a council being half a state, you're talking about a great deal of money. The council spends that money on camps. These camps tend to have troop houses, platform tents, cabins, etc. that can be rented for $25/night. Our council puts out a 350-page book every fall with LOADS of programs for troops. Leaders don't have to seek out their own resources; they can just sign up for these programs. They vary widely: We've taken our scouts to the indoor climbing place, we've done an overnight at a history museum, we've taken them to high-adventure overnights where they completed high-ropes courses, we've done an overnight in a cave, we've attended womens' sports events at colleges . . . and so much more. Also, the council has tubs that leaders can "check out" that are themed for various badges; these are big time savers for leaders. This is all very welcome to the leaders because we can't all have resources for everything -- for example, when my troop wanted to learn archery, I didn't have a place to get equipment, etc., so I was glad to be able to sign up to attend a Saturday at one of our camps, knowing that everything was provided, including the trainer. And these programs are all cheap for the troops; except for overnights, the programs are rarely more than $5/girl. So council offices are using that money well.
I personally think they've done less well in the past few years, but I think I believe that because my girls are older now. They focus the majority of their programs on the elementary /middle school girls, girls who also make up the majority of the membership and who sell the most cookies.
-
I was using the search function to find a different topic, and came across this one. Very pleased to find it! My kid and I recently joined Scouts. We're in Canada where Scouts has been gay-friendly for some time, but I didn't want people to incorrectly assume we're anti-gay, so I've kept it private. I'm really relieved to hear how people on this thread are approaching this delicate issue, i.e., with thoughtfulness.
Anyway... I agree 100% that Scouts differs dramatically from group to group, and that a group's "culture" depends very much on who is leading it. We landed in an awesome one on our first go, so I thought Scouts was amazing. Then I started attending events/camps/etc that went beyond our group, and found all the chaos, disorganization, bullying, defeatism, resignation, religion, etc. So, now I see *our* particular group as phenomenal -loving, kind, well-organized, really facilitating self-leadership in the kids, very aligned with Mustachiansim. It keeps the nationalism/religion/rites to an absolute bare minimum (just that which is required annually for investiture). And I see the larger organization as a bit of a write-off at this point in its journey, and one I would not recommend because of how I see kids affected (I'm a leader and have spent days and nights on-site). I have hope that it will eventually find its way to being a safe, supportive, leadership-building organization. In the meantime, I am very active with our own group so that new people can come to ours and also actively support kids' safety when at larger events. Several members of our group tried out up to 10 groups before finding and subsequently joining ours, so some others are experiencing the same.
Shop around, sign up for the group that reflects your values, then have an incredible time!
-
I was in post-hippie-era Scouts in Quebec (Canada) for years, and my dad was a troop leader. At the time I felt it was kinda square, and I didn't like that we wore uniforms. But looking back, boy, I got a lot out of it. We were all fairly poor, and without Scouts very few of us would have had any experience with canoes, or archery, or mountain hiking, or wilderness camping. And I learned a lot about self-reliance and the value of peer mentoring.
Reading the other comments, it's possible I was just very lucky and associated with a good group. Expenses were low (we collected newspapers to sell for recycling, and it's amazing how many dads will volunteer to drive the kids to camp if it means a weekend alone with mom). And I don't remember any homophobia or other forms of exclusion -- we were multi-faith slash non-faith, our members and leaders included developmentally delayed adults and one guy who'd had a really bad acid trip, and now that I think about it, one of our leaders once brought his boyfriend along to a jamboree for a weekend.
So looking back on it, hell, yes, Scouts helped form me in a positive way, in a lot of ways that overlap with my interpretation of Mustachianism. I haven't really thought about it for a while, so thanks, OP, for taking me down this trail!
-
Short answer is I think scouting or something like it is a good thing.
As for the BSA itself, I was actually excluded from one local troop for no being a member of the right religion.
And I am a heterosexual Baptist (a Protestant Christian denomination). The point is their discrimination policies are highly localized and quite varied so you really have to find out what local practices are the written rules mean diddly.
I continued in Scouting through a faith based local organization that was the same idea only inclusive. We even had an atheist member because they weren't allowed in the BSA troop either.