Author Topic: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???  (Read 16183 times)

Southern Stashian

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Hello!

I recently signed our son up for the Boy Scouts based on some feedback from friends, and I must say that I'm pretty impressed. They make them pay their dues monthly like a bill with their own money to build some financial responsibility, spend 100% of their time outdoors doing activities (except for meetings), plan, shop and prepare their own meals while camping and generate their own money for their trips every month.

Our son has taken to the scouts more than we anticipated. Although we have only been involved for a month now, we have already seen a change in him. He now stops to think before speaking out loud, spends an hour every night reading his Scout book and does his chores now without asking. Its also nice being so closely involved with something that he is enjoying so much.

Has anyone here been a Scout (Boy Scout or Girl Scout) and did it give you a good foundation for being more of a Mustachian later in life?

Thanks!


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« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 02:08:13 PM by Southern Stashian »

smalllife

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachien???
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2013, 01:27:13 PM »
Is this the only group/team activity your son is involved in?  It sounds like he just found an activity to get excited about, not something that the Boy Scouts in particular are providing.  That activity happens to involve time management and money skills - bravo to the troop leader on that one, it is not something my male friends ever had to do.   

(Full disclosure: I disliked the Girl Scouts because they do nothing useful and even as a kid I chafed against traditional female expectations.  My brother is an Eagle Scout but has thought about turning it in multiple times due to their anti-gay and anti-atheist/non-Christian policies.  If you have a good troop leader it can be a rewarding experience, but that varies greatly).

Southern Stashian

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian???
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2013, 01:37:47 PM »
Is this the only group/team activity your son is involved in?  It sounds like he just found an activity to get excited about, not something that the Boy Scouts in particular are providing.  That activity happens to involve time management and money skills - bravo to the troop leader on that one, it is not something my male friends ever had to do.

Thanks for the reply. No, he has been an active sports player (baseball and soccer) since age 4 (now 11), playing on the rec team while also playing with a travel team. He will be playing spring baseball this coming year but not participating with the travel team - too much to juggle with 3 kids.

I'm sorry about your bad experience with the Girl Scouts. We have been trying to get our daughter involved but they are so disorganized (at least here) that we've almost given up. We'll see what happens.

I know about the anti-gay thing with the Scouts, but really want to keep this topic focused on the good things that the Scouts do. I think that the Scouts offer a little more in needed life skills than what he has taken so far from sports based on some initial observations.

Thanks!


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« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 02:08:49 PM by Southern Stashian »

2527

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachien???
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2013, 02:02:40 PM »
I am an Eagle Scout and my son is  a scout.  Effective Jan 1, 2014, youth who are gay can be scouts, which I personally consider to be a positive step.  That said, each troop, to some extent, has its own personality.

Scouts does foster self-reliance, an appreciation for the outdoors, and thriftiness. 

One thing I like about Scouts is it fosters good character and achieving success, which can be done outside the context of winning and losing.  It also has a mentality of membership and commitment instead of being a participant or free agent. 


Mr.Macinstache

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Question... do they require rituals like saying the pledge and other things like that, be it nationalistic or religious?

FunkyStickman

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Question... do they require rituals like saying the pledge and other things like that, be it nationalistic or religious?

Part of the requirements for earning rank is being able to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, the Scout Law, etc.

I was a scout, I just signed my son up for Scouting last week. Looking forward to spending some time with him, bonding, teaching/learning, and generally spending quality time together.

2527

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It uses the pledge of allegiance a lot, and fosters a respect for the country and one of the 12 scout laws is Reverence.    For completeness, the other 11 are trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, and clean.  A scout troop will take on the personality of the area its members live in.  A juvenile court judge I know says he has never seen a kid standing before him who was also active in Scouts.   
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 02:42:05 PM by Jeff L »

Psychstache

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When I worked at a high school, I learned another valuable skill that the boy scout instill: the ability to go against the grain and stick to something to achieve a goal. I saw a lot of high schoolers who were still in the scouts to get Eagle who got ragged on by their friends all the time. It's good to learn the importance of ignoring what people say and keeping your eye on the prize.

Undecided

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I was a Boy Scout briefly. I think that the process of consciously deciding to leave scouting contributed to having a good foundation for becoming (my personal version of) Mustachian later in life. But I think that most things undertaken thoughtfully (including being active in scouting) may end up being a good foundation for later life.

marty998

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Question... do they require rituals like saying the pledge and other things like that, be it nationalistic or religious?

Bloody hell you make it sound like Hitler's youth!

I was a boy scout, and even though our group was affiliated with our local catholic school the leaders were never preachy with us. The Lord's prayer before meals was about all there was. Most kids wouldn't understand all the religious dogma anyway.

Best thing you could do for a kid is to sign them up for it. Especially since there is no badge earned for playing Xbox.

Also helps if they join a group that is not appended to their school. Having 2 sets of separate friendship groups is always a good thing.

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2013, 03:05:13 PM »
Question... do they require rituals like saying the pledge and other things like that, be it nationalistic or religious?

Bloody hell you make it sound like Hitler's youth!

I was a boy scout, and even though our group was affiliated with our local catholic school the leaders were never preachy with us. The Lord's prayer before meals was about all there was. Most kids wouldn't understand all the religious dogma anyway.

Best thing you could do for a kid is to sign them up for it. Especially since there is no badge earned for playing Xbox.

Also helps if they join a group that is not appended to their school. Having 2 sets of separate friendship groups is always a good thing.

Oh bloody hell that's sounds dramatic! Lol.

Actually when my Dad's family left post WW2 Nazi Germany and came here, his Mother forbid to join the scouts for nationalistic reasons.

Sounds overall positive for the most part. There are aspects that I do like, more than not. There is the balance in our life to raise individuals in a world that wants people to blindly assimilate.

sol

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2013, 03:13:05 PM »
Like most quasi-military organizations, there are pros and cons.  I liked the sense of community and cooperation and the leadership opportunities, but struggled with personality conflicts with some of the people involved, both scouts and adults.

I earned my eagle scout shortly before James Dale lost his court case.  My troop had never been openly bigoted, but seeing the national program go down that road was disappointing.  It was easy and natural to withdraw from the program when it became clear to me that they were teaching lots of great stuff, but only if you were the right kind of hateful.

NSFW musical illustration:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDiC5iStnc8

Now, I have a 10 year old son who is transitioning from cub scouts to boy scouts.  I'm still on the fence about how I feel about that.  Scouting brought a lot of great things to my life and I think that as a parent I can mitigate much of the discriminatory message, but supporting the program again kind of feels like buying a membership at a whites-only country club.  Just because it's awesome doesn't mean it's right.


Southern Stashian

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2013, 07:39:44 PM »
I appreciate all of your replies. We just got back from a scout meeting tonight and it was great to see the boys with their rankings, delegating authority and guiding the younger less experienced scouts with their duties (my son included). It was refreshing to see young men taking on that responsibility and working as a team. The boys are 2.5 weeks away from a weekend canoe trip in North Florida and our son can't wait as it will be his first trip. We have loved spending this quality time together and there's nothing like bonding with your child.

I was never pushed into the scouts as I was an only child with crappy parents, and watching the boys tonight made me realize how much better of a person I could have been with that structure. It's a shame to see sexuality and religion trickle down to something that has helped so many young men. If someone asked my son what his sexuality or religion was, my answer (and his) would be "none of your business" and that would be the end of it. Take it or leave it.

In the end I think our son will take the things from the scouts that work best for him and forget the ones that don't - hopefully worrying about someones sexuality being one of the ones he forgets. I do the same with MMM and his posts - most of the information I can relate to but not necessarily all of it. In the end, its about becoming a better person and the scouts (and MMM) are things that will help him to become that better person in life.


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« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 08:06:02 PM by Southern Stashian »

FunkyStickman

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2013, 08:31:21 PM »
Now, I have a 10 year old son who is transitioning from cub scouts to boy scouts.  I'm still on the fence about how I feel about that.  Scouting brought a lot of great things to my life and I think that as a parent I can mitigate much of the discriminatory message, but supporting the program again kind of feels like buying a membership at a whites-only country club.  Just because it's awesome doesn't mean it's right.

This is totally dependent on the scout troop, and the people therein. You cannot specifically condemn all scouting because of your experience with a particular troop or troops, and I'd encourage you to get to know the current troop leaders to see if you feel comfortable with their methods. You yourself know the benefits of the program, and if need be, you can always sign him up as a standalone scout... or you could even get a handbook and teach him yourself. I've actually considered doing this, as my point for bringing my son into it wasn't so I could drop him off once a week, it was to be able to spend time with him doing things that build character, with a group of like-minded families.

If you are looking to Scouting as a replacement for family quality time, then yes, it's a poor substitute. If you're looking into it as a shared activity, then I see nothing holding you back. This is my opinion, of course, and maybe in time I may come across circumstances to the contrary, but for now, I'm willing to give it a try.

I too have very fond memories of scouting as a child... and my father was one to drop me off every week. He rarely went on trips with me.

Joshin

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2013, 08:35:50 PM »
My oldest son is in scouts. He loves it, all his friends are in it, and his troop is pretty secular and non-church affiliated. He is worried about if he ever makes Eagle because he's agnostic (they ask about religion at the review board for the award), but we'll cross that bridge when/if we come to it. Scouts has been good for him, but he did have to try out several troops before he found one that fit him. Most were too religious or too disorganized for his taste. He is wrestling with the discrimination issue, but this is his decision so while we are here to advise, the choice to stay in scouting is his. Right now he leans toward the theory you can effect more change from within the organization. This may be actually true, because the recent loosening on gay discrimination was decided by vote of all scout employees, volunteers and parents.

My younger son tried scouts for several years and despised it. He did not find it challenging and the rituals struck him as plain silly. He instead wants to start a Hacker Scout chapter in our town, although I'm hesitant about taking on another volunteer responsibility. They are aimed at tech and science, and they are all inclusive, which is a major bonus. The Boy Scouts have been giving them grief about their name recently, although their program is nothing like the BSA, so they are changing it soon.
http://hacker-scouts.org

gooki

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2013, 01:31:52 AM »
I went through scouts as a kid. Our troop was mix gender.

A great foundation for learn self reliance, how to cook, how to clean, how to work as a team, how to fire a gun etc.

Southern Stashian

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2013, 05:31:19 AM »
Quote
If you are looking to Scouting as a replacement for family quality time, then yes, it's a poor substitute. If you're looking into it as a shared activity, then I see nothing holding you back. This is my opinion, of course, and maybe in time I may come across circumstances to the contrary, but for now, I'm willing to give it a try.

I too have very fond memories of scouting as a child... and my father was one to drop me off every week. He rarely went on trips with me.

There are definitely "those parents" who you only see in the parking lot at the beginning and end of every meeting. That will never be me as thats not what the scouts are about. Last night there were two of the 13 year old scouts waiting in the dark parking lot at 9pm for their parents to arrive to pick them up.

With it being dark and a school night, I wasn't too happy with the parents when they arrived as we were not going to leave the boys there by themselves. Our kids are in bed by 8:30 every night so its a treat for our oldest to be out a little later, but those parents just plain suck in my eyes. I think our son appreciates our time together even more because he knows that I would never leave him alone like that.


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ace1224

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2013, 06:15:24 AM »
i'm cubmaster of my son's cub scout pack and have been for 3 years.  (he's a bear)  he likes it which is the only reason i do it.  i am not an outdoorsy campy activity person, but i suck it up for me kid.  i do like running the meeting so that's fun.
the den meetings don't allow parents in them, bc the kids get distracted and get nothing done ever.  we do allow parents on field trips and all pre meeting and after meeting activities. and of course the parents should be guiding the "homework" since most of it is family activites

brand new stash

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2013, 06:28:05 AM »
I was a Girl Scout for years as a kid, and my daughters are Girl Scouts now, and I think they have gotten a lot out of being scouts.  Even in Daisy Scouts (kindergarten and first grade) they talk about money, and how many things costs money and you have to make choices about how to spend your money. I think it's a great activity.

My son is too young for Boy Scouts, but I hope he enjoys it and benefits from it as much as his sisters have from Girl Scouts.

NeverWasACornflakeGirl

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachien???
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2013, 06:32:47 AM »
(Full disclosure: I disliked the Girl Scouts because they do nothing useful and even as a kid I chafed against traditional female expectations.  My brother is an Eagle Scout but has thought about turning it in multiple times due to their anti-gay and anti-atheist/non-Christian policies.  If you have a good troop leader it can be a rewarding experience, but that varies greatly).

I'm sorry you didn't like the Girl Scouts as a kid.  I am a Girl Scout leader and I can tell you that there is a huge emphasis now on developing leadership skills in girls, outdoor experiences, and STEM activities.  Like you said, the troop leader sets the tone for the troop.  I don't know when you were a girl scout, but may it have been that your leaders themselves were perpetuating "traditional female expectations"?  I was a Girl Scout 30 - 35 years ago, and I don't really remember our troop doing much, either.  ;-)

In my mind the Girl Scout program now is much more in line with the program when Juliette Gordon Lowe founded Girl Scouts 101 years ago -- teach girls practical skills and teach them to be independent.  The Girl Scout awards (Bronze, Silver, and Gold, Gold being the equivalent of an Eagle Scout) are leadership and service projects that the girls have to formulate and perform themselves.  Outside of those awards, Girl Scouts Leadership Experience encourages girls to "Discover, Connect, Take Action." 

Just as an aside, I share your concerns about the "anti-gay and anti-atheist/non-Christian policies" of the Boy Scouts, and am proud to say that the Girl Scouts antidiscrimination policy is very simple:  The Girl Scouts do not discriminate against anyone for any reason.  Also, there is an asterisk in the Girl Scout Promise:  "On my honor I will try to serve God* and my country, to help people at all times, and to live by the Girl Scout Law."  The asterisk says that each girl defines "God" in her own way.

Back to the original question:

I'm not sure that either Boy or Girl Scouts are mustachian.  Neither one is free or inexpensive.  Also, depending on the leadership of the troop, there can be too much of an emphasis on collecting badges and patches just to have them, rather than an emphasis on learning and experiences.


Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2013, 07:16:09 AM »
Quote
If you are looking to Scouting as a replacement for family quality time, then yes, it's a poor substitute. If you're looking into it as a shared activity, then I see nothing holding you back. This is my opinion, of course, and maybe in time I may come across circumstances to the contrary, but for now, I'm willing to give it a try.

I too have very fond memories of scouting as a child... and my father was one to drop me off every week. He rarely went on trips with me.

There are definitely "those parents" who you only see in the parking lot at the beginning and end of every meeting. That will never be me as thats not what the scouts are about. Last night there were two of the 13 year old scouts waiting in the dark parking lot at 9pm for their parents to arrive to pick them up.

With it being dark and a school night, I wasn't too happy with the parents when they arrived as we were not going to leave the boys there by themselves. Our kids are in bed by 8:30 every night so its a treat for our oldest to be out a little later, but those parents just plain suck in my eyes. I think our son appreciates our time together even more because he knows that I would never leave him alone like that.


Props to you for not being one of those parents.

mrpress

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2013, 08:23:29 AM »
I was a boy scout for many years and have lots of great memories of those days. I think for city kids especially it can be helpful to get out in nature for a weekend. I agree about the "accomplishment" without winning/losing aspect. That's also why I like solo "sports" like golf, hiking, skiing, etc.

We have a son on the way and I would encourage him to join the Scouts but like others, I'll do my best to mitigate the anti-gay, anti-anti-religion nonsense and if he ever gets discriminated against for any reason, that would be the end of it. Our troop was never bigoted but then again we were all white, privilged, straight (as far as I knew) kids. I also don't remember religion being shoved down our throats but I do feel conflicted supporting an organization that has those beliefs.

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2013, 08:30:47 AM »
I was a boy scout for many years and have lots of great memories of those days. I think for city kids especially it can be helpful to get out in nature for a weekend. I agree about the "accomplishment" without winning/losing aspect. That's also why I like solo "sports" like golf, hiking, skiing, etc.

We have a son on the way and I would encourage him to join the Scouts but like others, I'll do my best to mitigate the anti-gay, anti-anti-religion nonsense and if he ever gets discriminated against for any reason, that would be the end of it. Our troop was never bigoted but then again we were all white, privilged, straight (as far as I knew) kids. I also don't remember religion being shoved down our throats but I do feel conflicted supporting an organization that has those beliefs.

I don't mind supporting a Christian org, as long as it isnt preachy or openly pushy. That and the potential flag worship are my only two reservations. I like everything else about what I'm hearing.

sassy1234

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2013, 08:47:41 AM »
I was in girl scouts and they prepared me for life by teaching me how to make beaded jewelry.  Seriously!  Pathetic. 

My older brother was in boy scouts and I basically used his book and did everything he did, but behind the scenes.  Not nearly as fun. 

Generally, the boy scouts are a good organization, except for the anti-gay thing.  I find it strange that gay teens are allowed and 'accepted' now, but as soon as they turn 18, they are not fit for their organization. 

mrpress

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2013, 09:30:18 AM »
I don't mind supporting a Christian org, as long as it isnt preachy or openly pushy. That and the potential flag worship are my only two reservations. I like everything else about what I'm hearing.
Good point, and I should clarify that I don't either. I just checked out our local troops and it appears most of them are held in churches around here. When I was a kid, pack meetings were held at the den leader's house but that was in a small town.

I also didn't really answer the original question re: scouts/mustachian. Did it help? Maybe. I don't really recall any meetings or badges related to money though. I would imagine it came more from my parents than scouts but it's not like scouts makes you want to spend more money.

plainjane

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2013, 09:33:33 AM »
I was in girl scouts and they prepared me for life by teaching me how to make beaded jewelry.  Seriously!  Pathetic. 

I was in Girl Guides, and it taught me how to be away from my family without homesickness, that if I learned how to cook the food would taste better (and that eggs and toast also can be turned into french toast and vice versa), how to fix small tears in fabric, that I could carry a canoe for 2km if I persevered and used good form, how to do sales, and how to build 12' high bonfires.

The last is the only one that hasn't had a good use since.

It really depends on the leaders.  And the other parents.  And what the other girls in the group are up for.

brewer12345

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2013, 09:37:48 AM »
I was a scout for a number of years.  Someone said paramilitary, and there are indeed some vestiges of that.  However, I got a lot out of it and learned a lot.  It is likely that a lot of my character and innate tendencies would have been substantially the same, but the order, responsibility and rules that scouting emphasized definitely resonated with me.  Growng up in the 5 boros of NYC, it was also a great way to develop a love of the outdoors.

The anti-gay/discriminatory tendencies of the central scouting bodies are definitely distasteful.  That said, I saw none of that in my troop and I think it really depends on the specific troop/leaders.  I don't have any boys, so I never had to decide what to do.  My younger daughter is just getting started with Brownies in a troop DW is starting up.

2527

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2013, 03:34:11 PM »
Effective Jan 1, 2014, youth who are gay can be scouts.

Runge

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2013, 05:20:56 PM »
I don't mind supporting a Christian org, as long as it isnt preachy or openly pushy. That and the potential flag worship are my only two reservations. I like everything else about what I'm hearing.

I'm not sure what you mean by "flag worship." I grew up in cub and boy scouts and at least in my troop and other troops that I was familiar with didn't worship flags. There is a sense of reverence that is taught towards flags in general and particularly the American flag. You treat the flag with respect by folding it a certain way, not letting it touch the ground, and a ceremony to retire the flag when it's lifespan is over. It is by no means "worship" only being reverent towards the American flag out of respect for our founding fathers and all of the men and women who have lost their lives defending our country and those who defend it today.

For those who are misguided, the definition of reverence is "honor or respect felt or shown." http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reverence
Worship is defined as "the act of showing respect and love for a god"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

Worship is showing reverence towards a god. Showing reverence towards a flag is not in and of itself worship. It only becomes worship when that person thinks the flag is some god. It's a clear distinction.

If other troops that I'm not aware of did teach boys to actually worship a flag, then yeah, that's completely asinine, and you should likely avoid that troop.

As others have already said, each troop is heavily influenced by the scout leaders, and I encourage you to get to know the potential scout leaders and be involved.

jflo

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2013, 06:02:45 PM »
+1 on totally depends on the troop (as well as the interests of the scout).  I learned to change the oil in a car for a girl scout badge, but there were other troops in my area who seemed to be filled with aspiring actresses getting makeovers together.  Some girl scout troops give a good dose of feminist self-reliance, others seem to just promote female stereotypes.

As I've grown older, I've become more wary of uniforms and rituals (and my husband won't touch either) so doubtful our kids will be - unless of course, there happens to be a troop of amazing individuals in our area. 

KimPossible

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2013, 10:58:32 PM »
I was a Girl Scout, all the way through to Gold Award.  It was a great experience for me--lots of camping, leadership opportunities, and good experience in developing and executing a plan (for all kinds of projects).

My Girl Scout leader was a wonderful, very dedicated woman, and I owe her quite a debt of gratitude.

Gray Matter

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2013, 05:50:26 AM »
In re-reading my post, I realized that I didn't answer the original question:  Is Scouts a good foundation for a becoming Mustachian?  My answer to that is I don't know, but it doesn't matter, because there are other things about Scouts that mean we don't participate.  The rest of this post is off-topic, so jump off here if that doesn't interest you.

We did Scouts with our two boys for several years, because my husband was an Eagle Scout and has positive memories of it.  Also, we live in the city and wanted the outdoorsy aspect for our boys.  It has way more religious undertones and patriotism than we are comfortable with (and far less outdoorsy stuff than we thought), and when they re-affirmed their bias against gay leaders, we felt like we had to stop supporting the organization.  I had had a conversation with a neighbor 15 years ago who is supportive of gay rights and kept her son in the scouts back then in order to "change the organization from within."  Fifteen years is enough time to change from within on this issue as far as I'm concerned.

I think Scouts does a lot of good for a lot of people, but it does not align with our values and that was bothering me more and more as time went on.  Aside from the gay discrimination issue, I am not for blind patriotism, and I think teaching kids any pledge falls in this camp, as they are too young to know what they are saying and to understand the issues.  I try to teach my kids they have a responsibility to their family, their community, their country, and their world, but they do not owe allegiance to anybody.

I know many do not share my sentiments, so I'm not suggesting organizations like the scouts should not exist, but they are not for me. 

« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 06:10:14 AM by Gray Matter »

zinnie

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2013, 08:38:31 AM »
I did girl scouts when I was a child through my teen years and it was a great experience for me and definitely very mustachian. We went camping, hiking, cross country skiing, kayaking, learned how to build a fire, learned how to cook on one, learned how to waterproof tents, how to navigate to places, etc. Our budget for the whole year was from cookie sales so we had to figure out how we wanted to use our money too. That usually resulted in camping and cooking on the fire! I think one year when we had extra money we went out to eat at a restaurant once and it felt like the biggest luxury :) We even did this past the point where our peers were spending their weekends at the mall and on the phone, which I think was an awesome experience for me as a teenage girl. (I of course did the mall thing too, but this taught me how much I loved the outdoor stuff!)

I don't remember girl scouts having any religious or odd philosophical undertones, at least that I noticed. It was about leadership, helping others, personal growth, money management, learning new skills, etc. My core group of friends growing up were from girl scouts and those friendships lasted into adulthood. Interestingly, they are all people who have somewhat 'mustachian' values today!

brewer12345

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2013, 09:17:19 AM »
unless of course, there happens to be a troop of amazing individuals in our area.

You could start one of them, no?  We wanted to get DD #2 into brownies, but tehre were no openings in the local troops.  DW decided to take the bull by the horns and start up her own troop.  it is not that hard and the other parents have so far jumped to help.  We are early in the process, but so far, so good.  Once I kick the day job to the curb in January, I plan to become as involved as I am allowed.

nawhite

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2013, 03:14:25 PM »
I did a whole lot with Boy Scouts. I am an Eagle scout and I worked at a scout camp for 3 summers teaching knots, cooking, wilderness survival and other things. Scouts was very mustacian for me in the long term because all of my major interests center around playing in the outdoors using people power vs any number of other more expensive things I could be doing.

As for my future kids, I'd love for them to do scouts in addition to family camping experiences however I don't think I'll ever want to be the leader. You know when you did sports as a kid and the coach was a parent for one of the kids on the team? That kid got very very different things out of the sport than I want my kids to get out of activities. I feel like if I were a leader in my children's troop, then I'd be taking away some of the independence lessons that I learned in scouts because my parents were "those parents" who dropped me off and picked me up 2 hours later.

Spork

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2013, 03:42:03 PM »
Effective Jan 1, 2014, youth who are gay can be scouts.

...depending on the troupe.

They still can't be atheist.
Leaders still cannot be gay or atheist.

I had a bad scouting experience, but I don't think my experience was typical.  My scoutmaster was a hard ass German with serious family issues.  (He shot and killed his son in self defense several years later.)  But it sucked because of him.

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2013, 09:49:15 AM »
Can they be agnostic?

Spork

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2013, 12:12:02 PM »
Can they be agnostic?

From what I read, no.  But that probably depends on if they are theist agnostic or atheist agnostic.   (Agnostic is just the belief that it religious questions are unknowable. There are theists that hold agnostic beliefs.)

sol

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2013, 02:38:03 PM »
Can they be agnostic?

No, they cannot be agnostic.  The BSA will discriminate against you if you cannot publicly profess a belief in a monotheistic supreme deity.

Lots of folks skate under the radar, though, just like lots of gay kids did.  Many local troops are less bigoted than the National Council, and will either not ask or will let you hedge your answer, because they believe in the rest of the program more than they support discrimination.

Both the gay thing and the atheist thing were much less of a problem before the ascendancy of the Mormon church in national leadership roles.  Talk about change from within, they kind of co-oped the whole program. These days they're about 15% of all scout troops, but a higher percentage of positions high up in the food chain.

Spork

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2013, 03:05:07 PM »
Both the gay thing and the atheist thing were much less of a problem before the ascendancy of the Mormon church in national leadership roles.  Talk about change from within, they kind of co-oped the whole program. These days they're about 15% of all scout troops, but a higher percentage of positions high up in the food chain.

I don't have much insight into the Mormon church, but I can state emphatically that where I live (southern Bible belt area) the atheist/gay thing is a big deal.

Personally: it bothered me a lot when the boy scouts were a federally funded organization.  To my (limited) understanding, they are no longer federally funded and are much more of a private organization.  I think private organizations have "the right to be stupid."  I put this in the same category as the right for the KKK to exist and decide upon who joins (but at a much, much lower level of hate).

garg33

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2013, 05:31:55 PM »
I don't mind supporting a Christian org, as long as it isnt preachy or openly pushy. That and the potential flag worship are my only two reservations. I like everything else about what I'm hearing.

I'm not sure what you mean by "flag worship." I grew up in cub and boy scouts and at least in my troop and other troops that I was familiar with didn't worship flags. There is a sense of reverence that is taught towards flags in general and particularly the American flag. You treat the flag with respect by folding it a certain way, not letting it touch the ground, and a ceremony to retire the flag when it's lifespan is over. It is by no means "worship" only being reverent towards the American flag out of respect for our founding fathers and all of the men and women who have lost their lives defending our country and those who defend it today.

For those who are misguided, the definition of reverence is "honor or respect felt or shown." http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reverence
Worship is defined as "the act of showing respect and love for a god"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

Worship is showing reverence towards a god. Showing reverence towards a flag is not in and of itself worship. It only becomes worship when that person thinks the flag is some god. It's a clear distinction.

If other troops that I'm not aware of did teach boys to actually worship a flag, then yeah, that's completely asinine, and you should likely avoid that troop.

As others have already said, each troop is heavily influenced by the scout leaders, and I encourage you to get to know the potential scout leaders and be involved.

He obviously meant the 4th definition on the very page you linked to:
"extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem"

And from your description it does indeed seem like "flag worship" by that definition was a pretty integral part of your Boy Scout experience.

Freckles

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2013, 07:33:47 PM »
Sorry to the OP, but this is more for the others who have expressed concern about some of BSA's ideologies.  I, too, have those concerns so I was very happy to learn of BPSA http://bpsa-us.org/  Their website says, 

"Scouting for Youth and Adults, Boys and Girls

Scouting is one of the best programs for developing character, improving resourcefulness, and learning responsibility and skills in public service; and BPSA believes this program should be available to everyone, youth and adult, boy and girl."

They are not affiliated with Boy Scouts of America or Girl Scouts of the USA but they are affiliated with the World Federation of Independent Scouts.

They are all about "traditional scouting" which to them means doing great stuff outdoors, especially in nature, and community service, as well as promoting good citizenship, discipline, self-reliance, loyalty, and useful skills.

I especially like that the troops are NOT sexually segregated.  And of course, that they aren't bigots, sexual-orientation or religious-views wise.

brewer12345

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2013, 07:37:31 PM »
I will readily agree that there is a patriotic element to the boy scouts.  I go a big floppy wobbler over displays of patriotism and mass, unthinking displays frankly make me uncomfortable.  Years of Catholic school and boy scouts allowed me the opportunity to see this stuff and decide for myself what I thought about it.  If you are a parent and find other things about scouting of value, think of it as a "teachable moment."

Worsted Skeins

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2013, 05:33:36 AM »
There were aspects of scouting (national policies and local cliques) that did not appeal to us.  But on the original question of laying a foundation for mustachianism, I can say that 4-H certainly did that for my son.  4-H emphasizes hands on learning.  For my son this included electrical projects and sewing as well as all of the group oriented activities (Robotics club, ski trips, community service projects).  Additionally 4-H emphasizes oral presentations of what one has learned. 

Of course, much of this is community dependent.  But I would encourage parents to investigate 4-H for their kids.  They'll find it is more than livestock--and no popcorn sales!  (Or is selling overpriced Boy Scout popcorn a regional thing?)


Southern Stashian

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2013, 08:39:18 AM »
I know a lot of the replies have been focused on the issues with the scouts stance on religion and homosexuality, but I cant fault the local chapter that we are involved with as there are some great people running it. Its too bad that a great program geared towards teaching children to be responsible and well rounded is tainted by people and their agendas.

Even though we have our meetings every week at a local church, not once has religion came up in any conversation. I have a pretty open mind and have no issues with meeting at a church every week and having to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

Paying respect to your country and its flag is a given to me. I did it as a kid too and turned out just fine. I can sort out the other junk and focus on what we came to the scouts to accomplish - learn some important life skills, build friendships and get outdoors - and do it together father and son.

We have a spaghetti dinner fundraiser this afternoon at the church and the boys (and some parents) will be the service crew, helping the setting up, serving and breaking down of the event. My employer is also paying for me to be there as I have 8 hours of community service allowance from them to use by the end of the year. I cant wait to see our son in action and the importance of him learning how others (in this case service workers) work hard to provide others their meals in a restaurant like environment.

I was also very impressed that he woke up at 7am today to start cleaning the bathroom and get his room straightened up as he was excited about the fundraiser today and couldn't sleep anymore. He said he wanted to impress Mom by being proactive with his responsibilities. I was proud to hear that!

Anyway, so far so good with the scouts. I think anything is what you make of it, and the nonsense with the issues mentioned above will be non issues with us. As long as we stick to our values as a father and son team, I think we'll be ok.


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« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 08:59:16 AM by Southern Stashian »

Noodle

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2013, 08:59:40 AM »
On a troop level, both Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts really do depend on parent leaders, and the quality of the experience depends on the ability and interest of the leaders. I also was a Girl Scout all the way through Gold, and I feel bad when I hear of women who had bad experiences, either due to social issues or leaders who didn't make sure everyone got a chance to do things they liked. Unfortunately, it can be hard to change troops because there are never enough adults to serve as leaders. One thing I do like about the Girl Scouts, aside from the fact that their only criteria to belong is to be a girl (or to be identified by parents as a girl), is that they feel a real sense of responsibility to help their girls do well in life. Both the Council I grew up in and the one where I live in now have a lot of girls in poverty and try really hard to equip the girls with soft and hard skills and opportunities they wouldn't otherwise have. Back when GSUSA was founded, women didn't even have the vote and had a lot of legal and social handicaps. The organization has a long history of trying to open doors for girls.


Nudelkopf

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2013, 05:05:41 AM »
Has anyone here been a Scout (Boy Scout or Girl Scout) and did it give you a good foundation for being more of a Mustachian later in life?
We're less sexist in Australia (?) and we just have plain old genderless Scouts. I was a Scout for about 9 years. I agree with Zinnie, in that although there's an undertone of religion (I promise to do my best, to do my duty, to my God & to the Queen of Australia), and we had to do a little mini-church thing on the Sunday of a camp.. It wasn't full on, and I think that definitely came down to our leaders.

But Scouts was definitely good for me - it was outdoors, full of friends (still lasting 'til today!), and I learnt many valuable skills such as campcraft, first aide, and water safety. Not sure exactly how it relates to Moustachianism, but meh.

kimmarg

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2013, 06:43:06 AM »
I was never a scout but I have to throw in a vote for 4H here. Contrary to a lot of people's belief you do not have to have farm animals to be in 4H. I learned a wide variety of skills through it, from sewing and cooking to running a meeting and banking, they emphasized record keeping too... Which I was never any good at but wished I'd learn better. We recited the 4H pledge at every meeting "I pledge my head to clearer thinking, my heart to greater loyalty, my hands to larger service, and my health to better living for my cub my community my country and my world"

Freckles

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2013, 01:00:06 PM »
I was never a scout but I have to throw in a vote for 4H here. Contrary to a lot of people's belief you do not have to have farm animals to be in 4H. I learned a wide variety of skills through it, from sewing and cooking to running a meeting and banking, they emphasized record keeping too... Which I was never any good at but wished I'd learn better. We recited the 4H pledge at every meeting "I pledge my head to clearer thinking, my heart to greater loyalty, my hands to larger service, and my health to better living for my cub my community my country and my world"

I love that pledge!  I never knew these great things about 4-H.  I thought it was just for raising pigs and the like, honestly.  Thanks for the info.

kmm

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Re: Boy Scouts ... A good foundation for becoming Mustachian later in life???
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2013, 06:13:18 PM »
Has anyone here been a Scout (Boy Scout or Girl Scout) and did it give you a good foundation for being more of a Mustachian later in life?
We're less sexist in Australia (?) and we just have plain old genderless Scouts. I was a Scout for about 9 years. I agree with Zinnie, in that although there's an undertone of religion (I promise to do my best, to do my duty, to my God & to the Queen of Australia), and we had to do a little mini-church thing on the Sunday of a camp.. It wasn't full on, and I think that definitely came down to our leaders.

But Scouts was definitely good for me - it was outdoors, full of friends (still lasting 'til today!), and I learnt many valuable skills such as campcraft, first aide, and water safety. Not sure exactly how it relates to Moustachianism, but meh.

We have genderless scouts here in Cambridge MA as well. It breaks down to about 3/4 boys and 1/4 girls in my son's troop. The city has several Girl Scout troops too, but these girls prefer to be Cub Scouts and the troop welcomes them. The undertone of religion was barely noticeable last year, but this year there is a badge based on "ways we worship" and I have to admit, it makes me uncomfortable. The scout leader has been quick to emphasize that it doesn't have to relate to God (many families in the troop are atheist or agnostic) but the word "worship" simply isn't something I would ever choose to describe how I relate to anything in my life. However, my son loves the activities and we both like the other families, so I've resigned myself that it's just one of those things I'll need to figure out how to make fit.