Author Topic: boom, bubble, bust... another set of predictions  (Read 3368 times)

Glenstache

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boom, bubble, bust... another set of predictions
« on: August 28, 2018, 10:41:51 AM »
So, Forbes currently has an article out that makes a case that the market is overvalued and that we are ripe for a bubble burst. Looking at P/E ratios, and other metrics, there appears to be a spike in valuation. That seems pretty well quantitatively supported. The prediction part of the analysis pretty much comes down to: when you get spikes in these plots, you also usually get corrections to the mean.

The Forbes link:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jessecolombo/2018/08/24/u-s-household-wealth-is-experiencing-an-unsustainable-bubble/

Thoughts? And by thoughts, I don't mean a discussion of attempting to time the market. I think the discussion of the utility of the various metrics put forward in the article, and if we are in bubble territory. The local real estate market certain feels pretty unsustainable in the Seattle area, but it is also driven by the presence of a lot of high paying jobs coming in to the area. Quantitatively, I don't know if that balance sheet works at the regional scale, or if people are just buying what they can before they can't afford it.

According to the Seattle Bubble blog, things are cooling down locally.
https://seattlebubble.com/blog/


mathlete

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Re: boom, bubble, bust... another set of predictions
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2018, 11:21:38 AM »
I absolutely think we're in an equities bubble. And the latest round of deregs will be problematic.

But the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent or however the saying goes.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 11:40:30 AM by mathlete »

dude

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Re: boom, bubble, bust... another set of predictions
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2018, 11:29:24 AM »
I absolutely thing we're in an equities bubble. And the latest round of deregs will be problematic.

But the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent or however the saying goes.

Agree 100%. Also, be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful -- BUT the weird part of this particular bull is that retail investors have not returned to pre-crash levels in the market, which leads many to believe this bull still has legs. There just aren't any signs of irrational exuberance out there yet. Quite the opposite, actually - the mood is very tepid out there with many people asking "has this bull run its course"? Very strange dynamic. So yeah, it's gonna crash probably sooner than later, but it could be much later than we may think.

mathlete

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Re: boom, bubble, bust... another set of predictions
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2018, 11:40:14 AM »
I actually rather enjoyed Jesse Colombo's analysis in the Forbes article. But it ends with a strong sales pitch to get him more AUM at Clarity Financial. Doesn't mean he's wrong, just something to discount on.

Some more criticisms. On most of the graphed metrics in which he circles the "Everything Bubble", you could have moved the circle back five years and it would still mostly apply.

He hand waves his "explanation" that the wealth effect is driving the current consumer environment. Though I did appreciate and find compelling, the Ben Bernanke quote that he used a few paragraphs latter.

MilesTeg

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Re: boom, bubble, bust... another set of predictions
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2018, 11:52:35 AM »
 It's only a question of when and how bad, not if.

skekses

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Re: boom, bubble, bust... another set of predictions
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2018, 11:53:53 AM »
From what I've read, it seems like the reason that everything feels so confusing right now is because of Quantitative Easing. When you have massive amounts of money piled into the system and then microscopic interest rates on top of it, the standard rules no longer apply. People can buy and sustain inflated lifestyles and businesses can sustain their own cycles much longer than normal when credit is cheap.

However, there will have to be consequences of building up an economy based on artificial measures. Right now the Fed is trying to slowly ease out of the Catch-22 that they have put themselves in by raising interest rates, but it is a quandary because other countries are in a similar situation and they aren't willing to follow suit. Raising rates risks popping the bubble that they have played a large role in creating.

So, then what comes next? What new measures will the Fed have to resort to in order to ease us out of the next mess when they already have all of their cards on the table? The chilling article that I read early is a topic called bail-ins. The short version is that instead of putting money into the banks to correct their balance sheets, the central banks have explored the possibility of reducing the bank's liabilities. To be clear, this means our bank accounts and our bonds. If trust is the foundation of the banking system, this is the single biggest violation that they can dream up and it's unclear to me how that will change the game once again.

This site has a lot of interesting articles if you want some further reading: http://danielamerman.com/aHome.htm

OurTown

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Re: boom, bubble, bust... another set of predictions
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2018, 12:25:05 PM »
It's only a question of when and how bad, not if.

Are you saying the top is in?

Great user name BTW.  I'm currently reading "Heretics of Dune."

Monkey Uncle

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Re: boom, bubble, bust... another set of predictions
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2018, 06:43:35 AM »
Hmm.  While I share a general sense of uneasiness about how long this party has gone on, and how it was started and propped up by QE, my read on the Forbes article is that it is mostly a tool that a financial advisor is using to sow fear and drum up business.  The author puts up several ominous-looking graphs and then concludes we are in a bubble that is about to pop, without ever really explaining the relationships between the parameters depicted on the graphs. 

The first graph he shows really should be on a log scale instead of a linear scale.  On a graph of an exponential function, of course the fluctuations on the right side are going to look bigger.  He also fails to explain the two indices that are graphed.  For instance, I'm curious why the GDP index continues to go up through all of the recessions except the Great Recession.

The second graph shows household wealth as a % of GDP, which is a more useful depiction of the data, and it does indeed indicate that we are in unprecedented territory.  But we get no explanation of why the long-term average is an important target for "normal."  The long-term average is meaningless, in my opinion.  I see a graph that fluctuates through time, with a general long-term upward trend since the late 1970s, which, coincidentally, is when inflation peaked.  If the long term average means something, then why did the statistic not even make it down to the long-term average at the bottom of the Great Recession?  And why did it not even make it up to the long term average in 1966, right before the worst period of combined stock market and economic performance in US history?

The third graph shows a 300% gain in the S&P 500 from the bottom in early 2009 to the high point in early 2018.  I concur with the general notion that this gain was enabled by QE.  But so what?  The 1949-56 bull market gained 266% in a shorter time period.

All of this strikes me as about as useful as CAPE.  Yes, there is some rough correlation going on, but no one has ever been able to outline a good cause-and-effect relationship that enables predictions.  CAPE and the household wealth analysis are part and parcel of the same basic measurement - valuation of assets.  Trying to predict the economic future based on asset valuations is a case of the tail wagging the dog.  Asset valuations increase during good economic times, and they decrease when the economy starts to turn down.  High asset valuations are indicative of an economic expansion that has been going on for a while, but I've never seen any hard evidence that the valuations themselves are what brings the economy down.  Which is why peaks and valleys in valuations never settle at the same place, and why the correlation is not very useful for making predictions.

skekses

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Re: boom, bubble, bust... another set of predictions
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2018, 01:09:33 PM »
Asset valuations increase during good economic times, but what defines "good economic times"? Does it get to count as good when the system is bloated with cheap debt that is being funded with more current and future debt?

The valuations themselves might not be the cause of the economy going down, but it sure does suggest that the economy is being supercharged by outside forces. Can a bloated system sustain itself without the boost? And if the valuations are exceptionally high, then how big must the drop be to return to a more natural order? Will our central banks allow us to return to that natural order? Or will there be another cycle of intervention using who knows what this time?

In general I think people should be more concerned than they are, not because I believe disaster is imminent (maybe it is, maybe it isn't), but because everything seems based on short-term fixes with long-term implications. For example, if we are now stuck in a permanent low interest environment, then how does that affect returns on investments over the course of decades?

Maybe there are a bunch of fear-mongers out there trying to make a buck off of our emotions, but maybe some of them have a valid point that should also be considered in coming up with our strategies for investing in the new world order.

Monkey Uncle

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Re: boom, bubble, bust... another set of predictions
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2018, 01:49:21 PM »
All good questions, but I don't think anyone has any good answers to them.  Like I said, I share the general sense of unease, but I don't see how that is actionable, beyond making sure you have enough buffer in your FIRE number to let you sleep at night, and enough flexibility in your FIRE plan to provide options in case that buffered number turns out to be inadequate.