Bogleheads blindspot

[getmoneyeatpizza]

I was over a bogleheads and just could not believe the responses to this post.

This guy doesn't want to go back into the office but if he does for 4 more months he gets a bonus that is 4% of his network and is "closer to 400k than 40k" (details sparse). He also states his SWR is 1.5% now. Making a few assumptions, this dude is sitting on 5 to 8 million and could double his annual spending to a 3% SWR and be set for life.

It has 136 responses in 2 days and the vast vast majority tell him to work the four months. To me, it's juts crazy.

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=354519&start=100

[Travis]

Bogleheads are not Mustachians. We all just happen to use the same vehicles to build wealth.

[Much Fishing to Do]

Yeah, there's lot going on in there. One of the fascinating posts to me is "is 1.5% doable? Yeah, probably (...if you're willing to economize later if need be)....But, IMO, it's not as rock solid as you might think."  I'd like to have heard their conclusion as to why to stay on for the 4 months, is it because a 1.45% WR that much better than a 1.5% WR?, or should they just never quit as things 'could' always fail?, etc

[Metalcat]

Someone who posts in BH asking if they should work more to make more money is looking to be told to work more to make more money.

No one posts asking for opinions about purely personal decisions without knowing already what input they're looking for. Especially in a place where you can do easily predict the response.

It's a gut check, not an actual seeking of information.

[fuzzy math]

Yeah, there's lot going on in there. One of the fascinating posts to me is "is 1.5% doable? Yeah, probably (...if you're willing to economize later if need be)....But, IMO, it's not as rock solid as you might think."  I'd like to have heard their conclusion as to why to stay on for the 4 months, is it because a 1.45% WR that much better than a 1.5% WR?, or should they just never quit as things 'could' always fail?, etc

If a 1.5% WR isn't going to work, I think my best investment vehicles would be dried beans and ammo, because something REALLY BAD has happened. Maybe propane and lumber too because the grid has probably gone down.

[ChickenStash]

Meh, I say go for it (the answer they were looking for, anyway). They've already worked way too long to get to that SWR, what's another 4 months wasted. Never know when they'll need to make an expensive hat purchase or something what will disrupt their 1.5% SWR.

[EvenSteven]

From the perspective of some bogleheads, it makes sense, and they consider things that mustachians don't take into account. Take wage growth for instance. Many here think of that as a good thing, but when you are making all your money off investments instead of wages, and now you have to pay your seven member crew that pilots your yacht more money, and you have to pay your staff at your summer home more, it can really add up.

[mcneally]

If you work anything close to 40 hours a week and wouldn't work 4 months to donate $400k to your favorite charity, I'd say you're kind of a piece of shit.

[Dances With Fire]

Bogleheads are not Mustachians. We all just happen to use the same vehicles to build wealth.

Over the years I have been an active member on both forums.

That said, if I posted my low expenses and WR % on BH I would probably get grilled and one reason I visit MMM.

There are a large number of professionals, Doc's, CPA's, investors, and engineers on the Bogleheads forum. Therefore, there is an element of "lifestyle creep" with higher pay etc. When discussions of withdraw rates and "needed income" get posted, I stay clear. For many here, it becomes silly.

[Metalcat]

Bogleheads are not Mustachians. We all just happen to use the same vehicles to build wealth.

Over the years I have been an active member on both forums.

That said, if I posted my low expenses and WR % on BH I would probably get grilled and one reason I visit MMM.

There are a large number of professionals, Doc's, CPA's, investors, and engineers on the Bogleheads forum. Therefore, there is an element of "lifestyle creep" with higher pay etc. When discussions of withdraw rates and "needed income" get posted, I stay clear. For many here, it becomes silly.

We have a very similar population of high earners here.

[ixtap]

Yeah, there's lot going on in there. One of the fascinating posts to me is "is 1.5% doable? Yeah, probably (...if you're willing to economize later if need be)....But, IMO, it's not as rock solid as you might think."  I'd like to have heard their conclusion as to why to stay on for the 4 months, is it because a 1.45% WR that much better than a 1.5% WR?, or should they just never quit as things 'could' always fail?, etc

It is pretty common at bogleheads to be told that pre 50 is "too young" no matter what the WR rate. Just too much time for life to kick in, productive member of society (which can obviously only be determined by how much you earn), yada yada yada. Someone just piped in that even considering quality of life in WFH was equivalent to throwing a tantrum.

I do like the suggestions to just donate the income, but with a children and a school year pending, I think the OP is at a unique point to set routines and expectations for the family.

[honeybbq]

If you work anything close to 40 hours a week and wouldn't work 4 months to donate $400k to your favorite charity, I'd say you're kind of a piece of shit.

+1

The OP has FI/FU money. They are just contemplating the choices. You could work 4 more months (3 with holidays and vacations), get the 400k, keep it for 20 years, and turn it into a million dollars for ... consumption, donation, etc. There's a lot of power in that decision. A lot of people you could help with that money.

I'd probably do it.

[scantee]

The issue here isn’t working four months for $400k. That’s a deal I would definitely take. The issue here (and with BH in general) is that once this person works an additional four months they’ll find a new reason why they can’t possibly quit. And after they meet that new milestone, another one will appear.

Corporate pay structures are intentionally set up so that there is always a pot of gold just around the corner, thereby making it really hard for people to walk away. And it works really well as posts like this one demonstrate.

Work or don’t work, doesn’t matter to me. At some point though it seems like it would behoove people like this to admit to themselves that they love the money and career more than the freedom of early retirement, if only so that can clear out the mind space that is being absorbed by decisions like this.

[JoJo]

I would work for 4 months for 400K.

In fact, I ended up working 11 months longer than I intended due to covid, and fairly happy I did to pad the cushion and have a little more clarity on how the world looks post covid (and got the shot too).  Eventually I may make one or more big purchases (new home and/or RV) so I'm glad I have extra wiggle room. 

[bacchi]

If you work anything close to 40 hours a week and wouldn't work 4 months to donate $400k to your favorite charity, I'd say you're kind of a piece of shit.

+1

The OP has FI/FU money. They are just contemplating the choices. You could work 4 more months (3 with holidays and vacations), get the 400k, keep it for 20 years, and turn it into a million dollars for ... consumption, donation, etc. There's a lot of power in that decision. A lot of people you could help with that money.

I'd probably do it.

Couldn't the OP just increase their WR to 2.0% and donate 0.5% each year? If the market tumbles, reduce it to 1.5% to ride it out. Or start at 1.5% for the first five years and then start donating.

The fact that they don't think they have enough with a WR of 1.5% indicates something else, as scantee mentioned above.

[Dicey]

If you work anything close to 40 hours a week and wouldn't work 4 months to donate $400k to your favorite charity, I'd say you're kind of a piece of shit.

...unenlightened?

Much as I'm not a BH fan, rule #1 still applies, which is part of why we're here and not there.

I joke that DH was raised by wolves. His parents had no tradition of giving. Somehow, he became a kind and generous man, but formal philanthropy was not in his vernacular. He has taken it to it wonderfully, but he had to learn. Doesn't make him or the person on BH a POS.

[AlanStache]

I went over to BH for the first time a few weeks ago, did not care for it, came running back here :-)

Personally I think I could slack off for 4 months for a nice windfall; but I do see the point of there always being one more big payday just around the corner and all of a sudden 10 years have gone by. 

Maybe use the 4 months to do something interesting that you had not yet been able to do; things can get done when you have no ducks to give and are a short timer.  Then go out with a bang and drop the mic.

[mcneally]

Yeah, you're right, Dicey.

[Metalcat]

If you work anything close to 40 hours a week and wouldn't work 4 months to donate $400k to your favorite charity, I'd say you're kind of a piece of shit.

This is nonsense.

I've walked away from astronomical sums of money and feel zero guilt about it. If I need to leave a work situation that isn't good for me and I can afford to do so, I'm doing it.

Life is short, you never have any idea what can happen or when. If the person isn't happy in their job, they should leave when they can, there's no honour in staying unhappy when you could choose not to.

[getmoneyeatpizza]

I assumed @mcneally was being sarcastic. maybe I misinterpreted.

 @honeybbq i don't understand your perspective.
 
This dude could quit now and donate 400k from his current stache and be at like 1.8 SWR instead of 1.5. And then use the time to volunteer 4 months for any charity he wants.

He said he doesn't want to go to work in person, so he shouldn't, since he doesn't want to....

[BlueMR2]

Work 4 months and in exchange get enough for a Lambo (and the money to maintain it if it don't get to crazy on the model you select).  I'd do it.  My SWR is comparable to his and I'm still working (although I make NOWHERE near that amount of money!).

[PDXTabs]

If you work anything close to 40 hours a week and wouldn't work 4 months to donate $400k to your favorite charity, I'd say you're kind of a piece of shit.

I think that depends on how good/bad the work situation is and your own personal values. I've had jobs that loved going to in the morning. $100K/mo for that? Sign me up.

Now, if you hate your job, maybe even fear your job? That seems like a personal values question. $400K for charity but you are going to hate every day? Everyone has their price, and they all get to be different.

[Travis]

Bogleheads are not Mustachians. We all just happen to use the same vehicles to build wealth.

Over the years I have been an active member on both forums.

That said, if I posted my low expenses and WR % on BH I would probably get grilled and one reason I visit MMM.

There are a large number of professionals, Doc's, CPA's, investors, and engineers on the Bogleheads forum. Therefore, there is an element of "lifestyle creep" with higher pay etc. When discussions of withdraw rates and "needed income" get posted, I stay clear. For many here, it becomes silly.

I went to them with my initial investing problems and they expertly picked them apart and set me on the right path.  Every other time I venture over there it's 70 year olds with $5 million staches worried about optimizing their index portfolios. There's hundreds of pages of discussion on whether 25% or 30% is the right international mix.

It is pretty common at bogleheads to be told that pre 50 is "too young" no matter what the WR rate. Just too much time for life to kick in, productive member of society (which can obviously only be determined by how much you earn), yada yada yada. Someone just piped in that even considering quality of life in WFH was equivalent to throwing a tantrum.

Any time Pete makes the news for something there's always a couple threads setting fire to it immediately. The moderators there are ruthless about keeping conversation civil and on topic, but it's open season on us.  Even if that wasn't the case, I just don't have anything in common with that crowd anymore.

[bryan995]

I think I may be on the wrong forum … ha.

The math says to stay and take the 400K (4%).
Also of interest, via blind, Amazon just announced a 20% increase to comp. all of tech will follow (or has already).  Going to be a lot more of this.
-
Amazon has increased salary band by 20% which will mostly help external hires. New pay bands for SDE/SDM in Seattle
- L7 - 800k
- L6 - 500K
- L5 - 300k

Can go higher with competing offers.
-

[getmoneyeatpizza]

The question is not whether he should keep working for 4 months.

He likes teleworking and doesn't want to go back to the office.

The question is whether he should go into the office for money he doesn't need and spend time in a place he doesn't want to for 4 more months.

[scottish]

The question is not whether he should keep working for 4 months.

He likes teleworking and doesn't want to go back to the office.

The question is whether he should go into the office for money he doesn't need and spend time in a place he doesn't want to for 4 more months.

I'm with you Mr. Gmep.     If he's got over 5M he should only do what he wants to do.   400K is neither here nor there.

[ageless-human]

I think I may be on the wrong forum … ha.

The math says to stay and take the 400K (4%).
Also of interest, via blind, Amazon just announced a 20% increase to comp. all of tech will follow (or has already).  Going to be a lot more of this.
-
Amazon has increased salary band by 20% which will mostly help external hires. New pay bands for SDE/SDM in Seattle
- L7 - 800k
- L6 - 500K
- L5 - 300k

Can go higher with competing offers.
-

Source on this? Do you know if this impact any other regions?

[PDXTabs]

I think I may be on the wrong forum … ha.

The math says to stay and take the 400K (4%).
Also of interest, via blind, Amazon just announced a 20% increase to comp. all of tech will follow (or has already).  Going to be a lot more of this.
-
Amazon has increased salary band by 20% which will mostly help external hires. New pay bands for SDE/SDM in Seattle
- L7 - 800k
- L6 - 500K
- L5 - 300k

Can go higher with competing offers.
-

Source on this? Do you know if this impact any other regions?

Blind is a forum for sharing salaries and salary negotiation tips:
https://www.teamblind.com/post/Amazon-20-increase-in-salary-bands-z0zUgg0Q

[soccerluvof4]

I open up 3 sites pretty much everyday MMM, Bogleheads and Reddit. All different but mostly same end game. Reddit obviously there financial sites like lean fire, personal finance and so on. I will say that BH is the most conservative and seemingly does suggest more, more, more for retirement. Reddit has threads more like MMM. But I like to post questions occasionally to all 3 to get different ideas/suggestions. In the end it should be taking the information and doing what is best for ourselves based on solid information. What is right for one might not be right for everyone and in fact I think we all know that. But Bogleheads has its good topics and you can get kicked in the teeth here just like any of the sites.

[Pigeon]

Different forums with a different focus. BH is much more about wealth accumulation than it is about ER. BH posters skew heavily to very high earning conservative males. Most of them are fine with conspicuous consumption and much of what goes on there is bragging about it.

My personal philosophies about wealth and ER fall somewhere in the middle and I read both. But 4 months for $400k, hell yeah, I would work.

[2sk22]

We have a very similar population of high earners here.

In my household, we have BH-level numbers but, overall, I feel I have much more in common with the people on this forum than I do with the typical BH crowd however.

My wife is a lot more cautious than me. When I initially brought up the idea of early retirement, she was a little shocked because in her thinking, even a 1% WR was reckless :-) It took a fair amount of careful calculations and presentations to convince her that 2.5% was perfectly safe.

[Bateaux]

Years ago I posted on BH my plans to retire on 1.5 million at 4 percent.  I was laughed at from all directions.  Had to be ten years ago or so.  Before I ever found MMM.   I was a Bob Brinker MoneyTalk listener back then and he talked about the BH group.  The FIRE movement was a very early concept.  I tucked tail and left, my fragile pride bruised.  By the time I found MMM we were already passed the 1M point.  I'm  much more comfortable here on MMM.  While our new net worth would get a bit more respect on BH, my blue collar level financial knowledge would be below par.  Plenty of you guys are just as smart as the crew on BH, sans the snob.

[effigy98]

A depression is not off the table. Would work 4 more months for that kind of money.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[Dibbels81]

I'm surprised the Bogleheads only suggested 4 months, instead of 4 years. Bogleheads is the Catholic Church and MMM was the guy nailing the 95 theses on the church door. The philosophies are similar but BHs are waaaay more conservative. There were plenty of heated, angry posts about MMM back in the day. Here's one but there are some older, even funnier ones out there:

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=115414

I gave up on BHs when my account was suspended, because I posted in a "How do you save money" post that I would run into gay bars to grab free condoms. Too much for the priests at BHs to handle.

[friedmmj]

I spend approximately equal time on BH and this board.  The Boglehead "norm" is to plan their retirement "number" based on 33x expenses ignoring social security altogether which boggles (or bogles) my mind.

[friedmmj]

Different forums with a different focus. BH is much more about wealth accumulation than it is about ER. BH posters skew heavily to very high earning conservative males. Most of them are fine with conspicuous consumption and much of what goes on there is bragging about it.

My personal philosophies about wealth and ER fall somewhere in the middle and I read both. But 4 months for $400k, hell yeah, I would work.

I would too.  I don't see a whole lot of bragging over there, but there is a really high level of conservatism and fear of running out of money.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

To each their own.  Live and let live.  Really not sure why people even go on internet forums to ask questions like this, other than to get a bunch of emotional outbursts from strangers.

I'd work the job I do now for 4 months for $400k.  I'd also do it for $40k or $4M.  Not sure why I care about what someone else's situation is, unless I actually know them as a person, all of the details of their job, and can have a nice long informed conversation with them to bring up some interesting points like - the income taxes are going to make that $400k quite a bit less than you think, or, you're probably only working for healthcare coverage anyway, or maybe - time with your family is precious, and you seem to be starved of it.  Maybe sprinkle in some - is there any 'meeting halfway'.  Possibly some philosophical - four months of life is both insignificantly small in the whole scheme of things, but also all that you have if you were to know you'd get sick and die in month five...

Sure, us folks can have lots of fun with questions like this, but I don't get why folks get all worked up about it.  The Boglehead OP has a pretty great position to make whatever decision they want and come out as it being a win.

[ender]

I think I may be on the wrong forum … ha.

The math says to stay and take the 400K (4%).
Also of interest, via blind, Amazon just announced a 20% increase to comp. all of tech will follow (or has already).  Going to be a lot more of this.
-
Amazon has increased salary band by 20% which will mostly help external hires. New pay bands for SDE/SDM in Seattle
- L7 - 800k
- L6 - 500K
- L5 - 300k

Can go higher with competing offers.
-

This is close to what their competitors already pay though...

[bacchi]

I would too.  I don't see a whole lot of bragging over there, but there is a really high level of conservatism and fear of running out of money.

It's called the Bogleheads humblebrag. A recent example is https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=354956&newpost=6152588, where someone actually calls the OP out, but there are others, like the guy who didn't want to join Mensa because his wife would complain about him talking about Mensa all the time.

"In my Mensa meeting last week..." Yeah, I'd get sick of that too, sport.


Not to suggest that we don't have our own humblebrags, especially about ERing at a young age.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

I would too.  I don't see a whole lot of bragging over there, but there is a really high level of conservatism and fear of running out of money.

It's called the Bogleheads humblebrag. A recent example is https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=354956&newpost=6152588, where someone actually calls the OP out, but there are others, like the guy who didn't want to join Mensa because his wife would complain about him talking about Mensa all the time.

"In my Mensa meeting last week..." Yeah, I'd get sick of that too, sport.
Not to suggest that we don't have our own humblebrags, especially about ERing at a young age.

Interesting insight!  I suppose it makes sense that when a forum has the thing that it really values (financial freedom on BH, early retirement on MMM), folks come up with ways to post humblebrags.  On this end, I've heard plenty of 'I retired at xx!' only to find that their spouse is still working, or they are making a career out of their hustle, etc.  I just take it all with a grain of salt - if it helps me, then I engage.

[NorthernIkigai]

On this end, I've heard plenty of 'I retired at xx!' only to find that their spouse is still working, or they are making a career out of their hustle, etc.  I just take it all with a grain of salt - if it helps me, then I engage.

Darn, do you mean I can never legit RE according to your definition, as my spouse never intends to stop working (in one way or another)? My current plans have me FIREing as soon as we as a family are comfortably FI.

[2sk22]

Interesting insight!  I suppose it makes sense that when a forum has the thing that it really values (financial freedom on BH, early retirement on MMM), folks come up with ways to post humblebrags.  On this end, I've heard plenty of 'I retired at xx!' only to find that their spouse is still working, or they are making a career out of their hustle, etc.  I just take it all with a grain of salt - if it helps me, then I engage.

I have to disagree about the highlighted point. I am 100% retired but my wife is still working. I have no plans to ever go back to work. It doesn't say anywhere that you're only considered fully retired if your suppose or SO is also retired :-)

[Metalcat]

Interesting insight!  I suppose it makes sense that when a forum has the thing that it really values (financial freedom on BH, early retirement on MMM), folks come up with ways to post humblebrags.  On this end, I've heard plenty of 'I retired at xx!' only to find that their spouse is still working, or they are making a career out of their hustle, etc.  I just take it all with a grain of salt - if it helps me, then I engage.

I have to disagree about the highlighted point. I am 100% retired but my wife is still working. I have no plans to ever go back to work. It doesn't say anywhere that you're only considered fully retired if your suppose or SO is also retired :-)

It really depends.

If someone is young and just decided to leave the workforce, but they're totally dependent on their spouse to support them, I wouldn't call them retired, I would call them a stay at home spouse and they would get a side eye from me for referring to themselves as "retired".

However, I'm medically retired from my medical profession, and sometimes just refer to myself as "retired" even though my spouse still works full time. But I was a licensed professional and cannot return to my profession unless my health miraculously improves. So the term "retire" for me has more to do with leaving the profession than to do with my personal finances.

But I do try to specify "medically retired" here so that it's clear. I don't always specify that out in gen-pop because I don't necessarily want to get into talking about my health.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Interesting insight!  I suppose it makes sense that when a forum has the thing that it really values (financial freedom on BH, early retirement on MMM), folks come up with ways to post humblebrags.  On this end, I've heard plenty of 'I retired at xx!' only to find that their spouse is still working, or they are making a career out of their hustle, etc.  I just take it all with a grain of salt - if it helps me, then I engage.

I have to disagree about the highlighted point. I am 100% retired but my wife is still working. I have no plans to ever go back to work. It doesn't say anywhere that you're only considered fully retired if your suppose or SO is also retired :-)

Sheesh ppl, you can call yourselves whatever you like.  I'm talking about bloggers that proudly proclaim that they are retired only to find out that they have a spouse providing healthcare, additional retirement contributions, etc...  I just think it's disingenuous for a blogger to proclaim ER when they don't have any risk of having to go back to work if the market nosedives and their plan goes pear shaped...

[honeybbq]

I assumed @mcneally was being sarcastic. maybe I misinterpreted.

 @honeybbq i don't understand your perspective.
 
This dude could quit now and donate 400k from his current stache and be at like 1.8 SWR instead of 1.5. And then use the time to volunteer 4 months for any charity he wants.

He said he doesn't want to go to work in person, so he shouldn't, since he doesn't want to....

He could invest that 400k and donate more over a lifetime. It's just an option. I wasn't articulating a particular opinion on 'correctness'.

[Ron Scott]

There are 2 components to BH posts:

First, (and the reason they’re so well known and so heavily referenced in the media and the forums) is that there’s a tremendous amount of good information to be found there relevant to finance, investing, taxes and retirement. It’s a real resource for people.

Then (just like all other Internet forums) they rely on people to post, many anonymous people. That means you’re going to get personalities, attitudes, rants, etc. It is what it is folks…

When I put my time into some reading on the internet I am grateful for the former and tolerate the latter. I’m glad they’re there.

[jinga nation]

There are 2 components to BH posts:

First, (and the reason they’re so well known and so heavily referenced in the media and the forums) is that there’s a tremendous amount of good information to be found there relevant to finance, investing, taxes and retirement. It’s a real resource for people.

Then (just like all other Internet forums) they rely on people to post, many anonymous people. That means you’re going to get personalities, attitudes, rants, etc. It is what it is folks…

When I put my time into some reading on the internet I am grateful for the former and tolerate the latter. I’m glad they’re there.

Exactly this!

I'm grateful for the Bogleheads wiki for passive investing, lazy portfolios, book recommendations, etc.

The forums... I couldn't care for. I used to be a forum member, but got tired of people complaining about stuff like an SUV oil leak issue (heard of car forums specific to the brand?) or wanting to justify their purchases like a $5000 Rolex. And then an accidental F-word got me temporary banned, so I knew my time was up. Can't give facepunches over there, their heavy-handed keyboard warrior moderators are of the Reddit variety.

[LD_TAndK]

A fun bogleheads thread, a 35 year old wants to retire on a ~1 million portfolio with a paid off house in two years. Sample responses:
 - you can't support three kids on 35k annually
 - I'm angry my tax dollars will have to support you when your retirement fails
 - the 4% rule won't work
 - you're living in poverty

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=355735

[JJ-]

A fun bogleheads thread, a 35 year old wants to retire on a ~1 million portfolio with a paid off house in two years. Sample responses:
 - you can't support three kids on 35k annually
 - I'm angry my tax dollars will have to support you when your retirement fails
 - the 4% rule won't work
 - you're living in poverty

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=355735

Poor guy was asking for specific answers and got don't do it.

The single post on this is similar to a $80k W2 income fell on deaf ears.

I sent him a PM and told him to post here.

[LD_TAndK]

Another fun one: https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=365615

Person has 1.9 Million saved + 550k equity on a 900k home. Spends 90-100k annually. One 3 year old and another on the way.

My thoughts: wow you've won the game, trim a little fat and you can FIRE with a huge spend and raise your kids

Instead: Double down and buy twice as much house, and a 110k sports car