Author Topic: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident  (Read 77456 times)

mm1970

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #200 on: January 24, 2015, 01:58:50 PM »
Don't know about your world, but I look at the bottom line (with tax) and do some quick math as to what 15-20% of the total is. If we are going out as a couple, the difference between my pre and post tax math would work out to $.40 to $.60 for the meal. If I get to the point that need to worry About tossing an extra $.40 at a waitress, I probably shouldn't be going out in the first place.

If your question is, "am I being a dick?" the answer is ........yes
Depends on where you go.
I tip pre-tax because the math is easy (double the tax)

NumberJohnny5

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #201 on: January 24, 2015, 04:02:27 PM »
IF everyone (or a large majority) stopped tipping tomorrow, I'm pretty certain that things would drastically change within a month. A waiter/waitress might put up with crappy tips for a day or two, but after a couple weeks of none of them getting tips, they'd demand the restaurant bump up their hourly to minimum wage (for those servers making below minimum wage; remember that many states have laws that require restaurants to pay minimum wage regardless of tips).

A server having a bad day/week won't complain and ask to have their employer make up the difference, because the employer is likely to fire them (not because they made them pay the difference, no no; rather, because they were the only ones who made such crappy tips that they had to ask for more money, and bad tips = bad service, obviously). If ALL servers were making crappy tips and they knew everyone else was, they'd start demanding higher pay.

That said, it won't happen like that. A few don't tip and might even leave a card behind explaining why. Until that number reaches a critical mass, nothing's going to change. If you want to be one of the "pioneers" of the anti-tip movement, I won't try to change your mind. But I'm not going to risk the stink-eye and various bodily fluids finding their way into my food. Perhaps I'm doing the right thing by tipping, or I'm just a coward (probably the latter).

My three cents worth.

smilla

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #202 on: January 24, 2015, 09:58:24 PM »
:
1.  This was in Canada so servers get minimum wage which is currently around $10 per hour (although now some liquor servers get about $1 less so around $9.00/hr). 

Which province were you in? In Ontario, servers get a much lower "server wage" than minimum, and usually new servers lower on the seniority food chain only work the busiest few hours so they aren't paid for a full shift

Hey MBot.  They get $9.55 which is $1.45 less than Ontario's minimum wage but much more than the allowed waitstaff minimum wage in various States.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_Canada

And yes most servers do only get the busiest few hours or split shifts but most of us thought that was terrific.  Of course, my experience was as a server in a university (college) town while I was going to school and probably 70% of my waitstaff coworkers were also students (and 100% of the servers I knew outside my province were also students) but it was an ideal and great-paying job for the number of hours put in, certainly the best available for non-intern-track students. 

Is it a family-friendly job?  Probably not.






kathrynd

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #203 on: January 24, 2015, 10:19:11 PM »
IF everyone (or a large majority) stopped tipping tomorrow, I'm pretty certain that things would drastically change within a month. A waiter/waitress might put up with crappy tips for a day or two, but after a couple weeks of none of them getting tips, they'd demand the restaurant bump up their hourly to minimum wage (for those servers making below minimum wage; remember that many states have laws that require restaurants to pay minimum wage regardless of tips).

A server having a bad day/week won't complain and ask to have their employer make up the difference, because the employer is likely to fire them (not because they made them pay the difference, no no; rather, because they were the only ones who made such crappy tips that they had to ask for more money, and bad tips = bad service, obviously). If ALL servers were making crappy tips and they knew everyone else was, they'd start demanding higher pay.

That said, it won't happen like that. A few don't tip and might even leave a card behind explaining why. Until that number reaches a critical mass, nothing's going to change. If you want to be one of the "pioneers" of the anti-tip movement, I won't try to change your mind. But I'm not going to risk the stink-eye and various bodily fluids finding their way into my food. Perhaps I'm doing the right thing by tipping, or I'm just a coward (probably the latter).

My three cents worth.

Thank you.
Except for the 2 towns, I live and do business in, I will no longer leave tips. ...(for the bolded reasons you provided)
You're right, until, everyone stops doing this, changes won't happen.
In the other places, they never know until you finish your meal, whether you will tip or not, so I will not be concerned about 'fluids'.

I hate tipping.
I rarely eat at a restaurant anyway, but when I want to, I am only paying for my meal, and taxes.
The owner can deal with the employees.If the employees don't like it, find employment elsewhere.

austin

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #204 on: January 24, 2015, 10:45:42 PM »
IF everyone (or a large majority) stopped tipping tomorrow, I'm pretty certain that things would drastically change within a month. A waiter/waitress might put up with crappy tips for a day or two, but after a couple weeks of none of them getting tips, they'd demand the restaurant bump up their hourly to minimum wage (for those servers making below minimum wage; remember that many states have laws that require restaurants to pay minimum wage regardless of tips).

A server having a bad day/week won't complain and ask to have their employer make up the difference, because the employer is likely to fire them (not because they made them pay the difference, no no; rather, because they were the only ones who made such crappy tips that they had to ask for more money, and bad tips = bad service, obviously). If ALL servers were making crappy tips and they knew everyone else was, they'd start demanding higher pay.

That said, it won't happen like that. A few don't tip and might even leave a card behind explaining why. Until that number reaches a critical mass, nothing's going to change. If you want to be one of the "pioneers" of the anti-tip movement, I won't try to change your mind. But I'm not going to risk the stink-eye and various bodily fluids finding their way into my food. Perhaps I'm doing the right thing by tipping, or I'm just a coward (probably the latter).

My three cents worth.

Thank you.
Except for the 2 towns, I live and do business in, I will no longer leave tips. ...(for the bolded reasons you provided)
You're right, until, everyone stops doing this, changes won't happen.
In the other places, they never know until you finish your meal, whether you will tip or not, so I will not be concerned about 'fluids'.

I hate tipping.
I rarely eat at a restaurant anyway, but when I want to, I am only paying for my meal, and taxes.
The owner can deal with the employees.If the employees don't like it, find employment elsewhere.

You're the type of person that gives frugality a bad name, btw. Have the decency to stop going out if you are going to be cheap and screw people over. You're not engaging in some noble crusade, you are just being a cheapskate and allowing people who understand social norms subisidize your meal.

kathrynd

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #205 on: January 25, 2015, 05:51:25 AM »
IF everyone (or a large majority) stopped tipping tomorrow, I'm pretty certain that things would drastically change within a month. A waiter/waitress might put up with crappy tips for a day or two, but after a couple weeks of none of them getting tips, they'd demand the restaurant bump up their hourly to minimum wage (for those servers making below minimum wage; remember that many states have laws that require restaurants to pay minimum wage regardless of tips).

A server having a bad day/week won't complain and ask to have their employer make up the difference, because the employer is likely to fire them (not because they made them pay the difference, no no; rather, because they were the only ones who made such crappy tips that they had to ask for more money, and bad tips = bad service, obviously). If ALL servers were making crappy tips and they knew everyone else was, they'd start demanding higher pay.

That said, it won't happen like that. A few don't tip and might even leave a card behind explaining why. Until that number reaches a critical mass, nothing's going to change. If you want to be one of the "pioneers" of the anti-tip movement, I won't try to change your mind. But I'm not going to risk the stink-eye and various bodily fluids finding their way into my food. Perhaps I'm doing the right thing by tipping, or I'm just a coward (probably the latter).

My three cents worth.

Thank you.
Except for the 2 towns, I live and do business in, I will no longer leave tips. ...(for the bolded reasons you provided)
You're right, until, everyone stops doing this, changes won't happen.
In the other places, they never know until you finish your meal, whether you will tip or not, so I will not be concerned about 'fluids'.

I hate tipping.
I rarely eat at a restaurant anyway, but when I want to, I am only paying for my meal, and taxes.
The owner can deal with the employees.If the employees don't like it, find employment elsewhere.

You're the type of person that gives frugality a bad name, btw. Have the decency to stop going out if you are going to be cheap and screw people over. You're not engaging in some noble crusade, you are just being a cheapskate and allowing people who understand social norms subisidize your meal.

Nobody is subsidizing my meal.
You can pay extra all you want...if that makes you feel better.

My 4 children all make minimum wage, and they don't get tips.

olivia

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #206 on: January 25, 2015, 07:53:30 AM »
IF everyone (or a large majority) stopped tipping tomorrow, I'm pretty certain that things would drastically change within a month. A waiter/waitress might put up with crappy tips for a day or two, but after a couple weeks of none of them getting tips, they'd demand the restaurant bump up their hourly to minimum wage (for those servers making below minimum wage; remember that many states have laws that require restaurants to pay minimum wage regardless of tips).

A server having a bad day/week won't complain and ask to have their employer make up the difference, because the employer is likely to fire them (not because they made them pay the difference, no no; rather, because they were the only ones who made such crappy tips that they had to ask for more money, and bad tips = bad service, obviously). If ALL servers were making crappy tips and they knew everyone else was, they'd start demanding higher pay.

That said, it won't happen like that. A few don't tip and might even leave a card behind explaining why. Until that number reaches a critical mass, nothing's going to change. If you want to be one of the "pioneers" of the anti-tip movement, I won't try to change your mind. But I'm not going to risk the stink-eye and various bodily fluids finding their way into my food. Perhaps I'm doing the right thing by tipping, or I'm just a coward (probably the latter).

My three cents worth.

Thank you.
Except for the 2 towns, I live and do business in, I will no longer leave tips. ...(for the bolded reasons you provided)
You're right, until, everyone stops doing this, changes won't happen.
In the other places, they never know until you finish your meal, whether you will tip or not, so I will not be concerned about 'fluids'.

I hate tipping.
I rarely eat at a restaurant anyway, but when I want to, I am only paying for my meal, and taxes.
The owner can deal with the employees.If the employees don't like it, find employment elsewhere.

You're the type of person that gives frugality a bad name, btw. Have the decency to stop going out if you are going to be cheap and screw people over. You're not engaging in some noble crusade, you are just being a cheapskate and allowing people who understand social norms subisidize your meal.

Nobody is subsidizing my meal.
You can pay extra all you want...if that makes you feel better.

My 4 children all make minimum wage, and they don't get tips.

I love that your bold move is only implemented when you're out of town at restaurants you don't patronize regularly.  SO BRAVE.  Only people you won't see again will know you're a cheap asshole!

Kris

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #207 on: January 25, 2015, 11:10:00 AM »
IF everyone (or a large majority) stopped tipping tomorrow, I'm pretty certain that things would drastically change within a month. A waiter/waitress might put up with crappy tips for a day or two, but after a couple weeks of none of them getting tips, they'd demand the restaurant bump up their hourly to minimum wage (for those servers making below minimum wage; remember that many states have laws that require restaurants to pay minimum wage regardless of tips).

A server having a bad day/week won't complain and ask to have their employer make up the difference, because the employer is likely to fire them (not because they made them pay the difference, no no; rather, because they were the only ones who made such crappy tips that they had to ask for more money, and bad tips = bad service, obviously). If ALL servers were making crappy tips and they knew everyone else was, they'd start demanding higher pay.

That said, it won't happen like that. A few don't tip and might even leave a card behind explaining why. Until that number reaches a critical mass, nothing's going to change. If you want to be one of the "pioneers" of the anti-tip movement, I won't try to change your mind. But I'm not going to risk the stink-eye and various bodily fluids finding their way into my food. Perhaps I'm doing the right thing by tipping, or I'm just a coward (probably the latter).

My three cents worth.

Thank you.
Except for the 2 towns, I live and do business in, I will no longer leave tips. ...(for the bolded reasons you provided)
You're right, until, everyone stops doing this, changes won't happen.
In the other places, they never know until you finish your meal, whether you will tip or not, so I will not be concerned about 'fluids'.

I hate tipping.
I rarely eat at a restaurant anyway, but when I want to, I am only paying for my meal, and taxes.
The owner can deal with the employees.If the employees don't like it, find employment elsewhere.

You're the type of person that gives frugality a bad name, btw. Have the decency to stop going out if you are going to be cheap and screw people over. You're not engaging in some noble crusade, you are just being a cheapskate and allowing people who understand social norms subisidize your meal.

Nobody is subsidizing my meal.
You can pay extra all you want...if that makes you feel better.

My 4 children all make minimum wage, and they don't get tips.

If wait staff actually made minimum wage, this argument might make sense.  But they don't.  Not even close.

dragoncar

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #208 on: January 25, 2015, 11:36:28 AM »
IF everyone (or a large majority) stopped tipping tomorrow, I'm pretty certain that things would drastically change within a month. A waiter/waitress might put up with crappy tips for a day or two, but after a couple weeks of none of them getting tips, they'd demand the restaurant bump up their hourly to minimum wage (for those servers making below minimum wage; remember that many states have laws that require restaurants to pay minimum wage regardless of tips).

A server having a bad day/week won't complain and ask to have their employer make up the difference, because the employer is likely to fire them (not because they made them pay the difference, no no; rather, because they were the only ones who made such crappy tips that they had to ask for more money, and bad tips = bad service, obviously). If ALL servers were making crappy tips and they knew everyone else was, they'd start demanding higher pay.

That said, it won't happen like that. A few don't tip and might even leave a card behind explaining why. Until that number reaches a critical mass, nothing's going to change. If you want to be one of the "pioneers" of the anti-tip movement, I won't try to change your mind. But I'm not going to risk the stink-eye and various bodily fluids finding their way into my food. Perhaps I'm doing the right thing by tipping, or I'm just a coward (probably the latter).

My three cents worth.

Thank you.
Except for the 2 towns, I live and do business in, I will no longer leave tips. ...(for the bolded reasons you provided)
You're right, until, everyone stops doing this, changes won't happen.
In the other places, they never know until you finish your meal, whether you will tip or not, so I will not be concerned about 'fluids'.

I hate tipping.
I rarely eat at a restaurant anyway, but when I want to, I am only paying for my meal, and taxes.
The owner can deal with the employees.If the employees don't like it, find employment elsewhere.

You're the type of person that gives frugality a bad name, btw. Have the decency to stop going out if you are going to be cheap and screw people over. You're not engaging in some noble crusade, you are just being a cheapskate and allowing people who understand social norms subisidize your meal.

Nobody is subsidizing my meal.
You can pay extra all you want...if that makes you feel better.

My 4 children all make minimum wage, and they don't get tips.

If wait staff actually made minimum wage, this argument might make sense.  But they don't.  Not even close.

... but they do.  If they don't make enough tips, the employer is required to make up the difference.  Now, I agree you should tip according to local convention if you choose to go out to eat.  But I don't think "Employers are illegally underpaying their staff" is the right reason to do so.  I would rather not patronize any business that is illegally underpaying its staff, so whether or not I tip at such an establishment should be moot.

MrsCoolCat

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #209 on: January 25, 2015, 12:38:18 PM »
I love that your bold move is only implemented when you're out of town at restaurants you don't patronize regularly.  SO BRAVE.  Only people you won't see again will know you're a cheap asshole!

This made me LOL! :-) Hehe, +1

mm1970

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #210 on: January 25, 2015, 12:47:43 PM »
IF everyone (or a large majority) stopped tipping tomorrow, I'm pretty certain that things would drastically change within a month. A waiter/waitress might put up with crappy tips for a day or two, but after a couple weeks of none of them getting tips, they'd demand the restaurant bump up their hourly to minimum wage (for those servers making below minimum wage; remember that many states have laws that require restaurants to pay minimum wage regardless of tips).

A server having a bad day/week won't complain and ask to have their employer make up the difference, because the employer is likely to fire them (not because they made them pay the difference, no no; rather, because they were the only ones who made such crappy tips that they had to ask for more money, and bad tips = bad service, obviously). If ALL servers were making crappy tips and they knew everyone else was, they'd start demanding higher pay.

That said, it won't happen like that. A few don't tip and might even leave a card behind explaining why. Until that number reaches a critical mass, nothing's going to change. If you want to be one of the "pioneers" of the anti-tip movement, I won't try to change your mind. But I'm not going to risk the stink-eye and various bodily fluids finding their way into my food. Perhaps I'm doing the right thing by tipping, or I'm just a coward (probably the latter).

My three cents worth.

Thank you.
Except for the 2 towns, I live and do business in, I will no longer leave tips. ...(for the bolded reasons you provided)
You're right, until, everyone stops doing this, changes won't happen.
In the other places, they never know until you finish your meal, whether you will tip or not, so I will not be concerned about 'fluids'.

I hate tipping.
I rarely eat at a restaurant anyway, but when I want to, I am only paying for my meal, and taxes.
The owner can deal with the employees.If the employees don't like it, find employment elsewhere.

You're the type of person that gives frugality a bad name, btw. Have the decency to stop going out if you are going to be cheap and screw people over. You're not engaging in some noble crusade, you are just being a cheapskate and allowing people who understand social norms subisidize your meal.

Nobody is subsidizing my meal.
You can pay extra all you want...if that makes you feel better.

My 4 children all make minimum wage, and they don't get tips.
In the US, at a restaurant, it is expected that you will tip. 

If you cannot tip or are not willing to tip, you should not eat out.  Feel free to eat at McDonald's.

milesdividendmd

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #211 on: January 25, 2015, 12:52:16 PM »
At the risk of sounding pollyannaish, I propose that both sides knock it off.

Not much is gained from ad hominum attacks or flame wars.

Why not discuss this interesting issue without all of the name calling and character assassination?

Lmoot

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #212 on: January 25, 2015, 03:30:51 PM »
Umm yeah...choosing not to drive and therefore not utilizing a salesman's service (aka wasting his time), is far different than using the service of the waiter/waitress. Order to go or something...don't even waste the space of a decent human being. And I doubt that the mustachian attitude is to be a miserable scrooge. Societal norms and expectations also dictates that you don't go around knocking old ladies on the head and steal their purses...but hey, if you can get a few bucks.

arebelspy

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #213 on: January 25, 2015, 04:15:30 PM »
If wait staff actually made minimum wage, this argument might make sense.  But they don't.  Not even close.

... but they do.  If they don't make enough tips, the employer is required to make up the difference.  Now, I agree you should tip according to local convention if you choose to go out to eat.  But I don't think "Employers are illegally underpaying their staff" is the right reason to do so.  I would rather not patronize any business that is illegally underpaying its staff, so whether or not I tip at such an establishment should be moot.

But they don't.  Insisting an employer up your base pay because you didn't get tipped enough is a good way to quickly get fired.  Clearly if your tips aren't good enough, your service must be poor and you should probably be let go (I say this tongue-in-cheek, but it's the employer's reasoning).

In other words, yes, the employers are supposed to make up that gap, but it doesn't happen in reality, not if you want to keep your job.
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sunshine

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #214 on: January 25, 2015, 04:30:03 PM »
Our tax is 5 percent. I take the tax times 4 and give a 20 percent tip. If we are traveling I figure 20 percent of the pre tax total.

Kris

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #215 on: January 25, 2015, 04:56:25 PM »
If wait staff actually made minimum wage, this argument might make sense.  But they don't.  Not even close.

... but they do.  If they don't make enough tips, the employer is required to make up the difference.  Now, I agree you should tip according to local convention if you choose to go out to eat.  But I don't think "Employers are illegally underpaying their staff" is the right reason to do so.  I would rather not patronize any business that is illegally underpaying its staff, so whether or not I tip at such an establishment should be moot.

But they don't.  Insisting an employer up your base pay because you didn't get tipped enough is a good way to quickly get fired.  Clearly if your tips aren't good enough, your service must be poor and you should probably be let go (I say this tongue-in-cheek, but it's the employer's reasoning).

In other words, yes, the employers are supposed to make up that gap, but it doesn't happen in reality, not if you want to keep your job.

Thank you.  I wanted to say exactly this, but I'm glad it came from someone else.

lizzie

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #216 on: January 25, 2015, 06:37:12 PM »
What do you think of my argument regarding that above? http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/bizarre-restaurant-tipping-incident/msg530100/#msg530100

IIRC the statute of limitations for claims under the federal Fair Labor Standards Act is 2 years, 3 if you can prove the violation was willful (which would be hard to do, I would think, if you had not alerted your employer to the problem while you were still employed). Note that this means you would only get to go back two years for underpayments, not that you could sue within two years of quitting and recover every underpayment for all your years of work. I'm not sure of the limitations periods for claims under state law but I think they are similar.

How a lawsuit is commenced varies from state to state. In my home state, it is not commenced until you serve the defendant. In the federal system, it is commenced by filing but you have to serve within 120 days of filing.

If not having to leave a tip is really that important to people, then I suggest that they campaign for changes to the law rather than stiffing individual servers and putting the onus on them to try to get the difference from their employer. Lawsuits are expensive as hell and very slow, and the chances of a an individual server finding a competent lawyer willing to take the case are practically nil.

NumberJohnny5

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #217 on: January 25, 2015, 08:14:13 PM »
If wait staff actually made minimum wage, this argument might make sense.  But they don't.  Not even close.

So, it's ok if we don't tip in Alaska, California, Minnesota (may be $7.25 vs $7.75 federal minimum wage), Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington state?

Umm yeah...choosing not to drive and therefore not utilizing a salesman's service (aka wasting his time), is far different than using the service of the waiter/waitress. Order to go or something...don't even waste the space of a decent human being. And I doubt that the mustachian attitude is to be a miserable scrooge. Societal norms and expectations also dictates that you don't go around knocking old ladies on the head and steal their purses...but hey, if you can get a few bucks.

Except you're supposed to tip for to-go orders too. Heck, here's a post about whether you should tip at food trucks (all those employees should be getting minimum wage):

http://thebillfold.com/2013/07/food-truck-tipping/

Say what you will about how the federal minimum wage (currently $7.75/hr) isn't a living wage. If you want to give extra money to someone who is merely doing the job they were paid (at least minimum wage) to do, fine. I call that charity. You donate to your charity of choice, and I'll donate to mine.

I am honestly surprised we're not tipping fast food workers (hrm, are food trucks fast food?). Wait, I forgot, we are. My brother used to work at Sonic and occasionally received tips. Crap, please don't tell me the workers at McDonald's are going to spit in my food just because I forgot to tip!

lizzie

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #218 on: January 25, 2015, 08:14:25 PM »
29 USC § 216(b) provides that the court "shall" award reasonable attorney's fees and costs to a prevailing plaintiff where the employer has violated the minimum wage statute.

That would appear to mitigate the expensiveness of the proceedings.

Yes, I'm fully aware that the FLSA is fee-shifting statute. A plaintiff--or more commonly his lawyer--still has to first front the cost and win the case before recovering fees, which are frequently reduced by judges. (You'll notice that the statute allows for a "reasonable"fee. Judges, especially those of a pro-defendant bent, can be hostile to fee requests.)It's a gamble, as is all litigation. As a practical matter an individual server with this kind of claim is almost certainly not going to find a competent attorney willing to take the case.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 08:26:40 PM by lizzie »

dragoncar

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #219 on: January 25, 2015, 09:30:02 PM »
If wait staff actually made minimum wage, this argument might make sense.  But they don't.  Not even close.

... but they do.  If they don't make enough tips, the employer is required to make up the difference.  Now, I agree you should tip according to local convention if you choose to go out to eat.  But I don't think "Employers are illegally underpaying their staff" is the right reason to do so.  I would rather not patronize any business that is illegally underpaying its staff, so whether or not I tip at such an establishment should be moot.

But they don't.  Insisting an employer up your base pay because you didn't get tipped enough is a good way to quickly get fired.  Clearly if your tips aren't good enough, your service must be poor and you should probably be let go (I say this tongue-in-cheek, but it's the employer's reasoning).

In other words, yes, the employers are supposed to make up that gap, but it doesn't happen in reality, not if you want to keep your job.

This may be true, but I stand by my statement that its not a good justification to tip. 

And as numberjohnny alludes, what about SF where the minimum wage is $11/hr, plus tips (not some bullshit min where you must fight to make up the difference).  Do I need to tip there?  If the answer is "yes because that's not a living wage" do I have to tip every minimum wage worker I encounter (eg mcdonalds)?

Again, I tip as per convention.  The same way I give my assistant a holiday gift even though they get paid a salary.  But I don't think you should encourage employers who you think are mistreating their staff.  Don't patronize such an establishment.

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #220 on: January 25, 2015, 09:52:48 PM »
back in Canada over the holidays and paying by debit/credit card they give you an option to give an amount or percentage, saves the hassle of calculating it. In reality you're adding 30% with tip and tax to the bill.
I had a funny experience with that auto suggest recently.

Short taxi ride -- taxi prompt maxed out at $3.72 for a 20% tip.  I almost told the driver that he was losing out on another dollar because I usually tip a minimum of $5 for decent taxi service....(work pays).

The worst experience I ever had was at a deli (cheese and meat and made to order stand up counter), run by the owner / operator, northern BC Canada in small town..It prompted for an automatic 10% or higher tip (no lower option);  this was a debit / cash only kind of place.  don't know about you, but if I don't even sit down in the joint, I generally don't tip, and generally not to small business owners for buying grocery type goods. 

The other bad one that was at a coffee takeout, that had one of those huge oversize pottery cups --about 6" diameter, with a "tips" sign, taking up 70% of the itty bitty cashier stand area.   Hard to pull out my wallet to pay and juggle a coffee at the same time, the darn tip cup was in the way.  Again, I rarely even put spare change there unless something extra special was done.   


dividendman

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #221 on: January 25, 2015, 10:04:19 PM »
...I think the tipping system is outdated and ineffective, the system can only be changed top down, not bottom up.

That's only the case because everyone tips. If everyone stopped tipping immediately, the situation would be rectified in < 2 months I'd imagine - a bottom up change.

Actually most, if not all, cultural changes in United States history are bottom up. It is rare for the law to go ahead of the peoples' views. (Civil rights, women working, gay marriage, or even less significant issues like marijuana legalization).

You agree that the tipping system is outdated an ineffective, yet continue to use it, why?

Goldielocks

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #222 on: January 25, 2015, 10:11:31 PM »
IF everyone (or a large majority) stopped tipping tomorrow, I'm pretty certain that things would drastically change within a month. A waiter/waitress might put up with crappy tips for a day or two, but after a couple weeks of none of them getting tips, they'd demand the restaurant bump up their hourly to minimum wage (for those servers making below minimum wage;

The owner can deal with the employees.If the employees don't like it, find employment elsewhere.
Unfortunately I agree with this part of your statements.   I do tip fairly well -- we just choose not to go out often to a sit down place.

I will be encouraging my kids  to consider waiting tables as a good part time job.  Many around here make at least double, often more, than minimum wage.  So $20-$30/hr across a  4-5 hour shift.  Even after tips are split with the kitchen.  Hours are few in a week, so it works out to maybe only 25k per year, but that is part time.

My cousin was a bell hop for a few years, while in school, and made good tip money there too.

If we stop tipping, then people will stop applying for these jobs until the wages increase....  or far fewer college educated kids and want to be actors will be wait-persons while working on their "real" career.

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #223 on: January 26, 2015, 05:45:01 AM »
If everyone stopped tipping immediately, the situation would be rectified in < 2 months I'd imagine - a bottom up change.

Actually most, if not all, cultural changes in United States history are bottom up. It is rare for the law to go ahead of the peoples' views. (Civil rights, women working, gay marriage, or even less significant issues like marijuana legalization).

Somehow I doubt that the injustice of facing a societal expectation that you tip when eating at a sit-down restaurant will inspire a social movement of the type that was/is necessary to confront Jim Crow, women's economic repression, marriage inequality, and the meat grinder that is America's war on drugs. But shine on, you crazy diamond. Maybe someday you'll join the likes of MLK in the pantheon of great American heroes.

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #224 on: January 26, 2015, 07:04:36 AM »
beggar - a person who lives by begging for money, food, etc.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/beggar

monk - a man who is a member of a religious order and lives in a monastery
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monk

employee - a person who works for another person or for a company for wages or a salary
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/employee

When you think of a food server into which of the three categories above do you classify them? 

I'll give you a hint - two of the three don't work and depend upon the charity of strangers.

If you know the correct answer you know why I don't tip and you shouldn't either.

MrFrugalChicago

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #225 on: January 26, 2015, 07:41:06 AM »
I tip the max if 20% or $2 per person. Pre or post tax is a few cents. I err on the side of not being a Scrooge.

Malaysia41

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #226 on: January 26, 2015, 07:46:42 AM »

This thread is exhausting (TBH I've skipped the middle pages).

We've been in SE Asia 2.5 yrs now.  No tipping.  It's wonderful. 

In the states, tipping now feels absurd. I sit there, staring at the check wondering why!?  Why must I do this math, navigate the latest 'norms' and customs, make all these judgments about waiter performance, living wages and what's fair in life?  God, I just want to eat a sandwich.  It shouldn't be this complicated.  Plus, I'd like to keep those $5 in my wallet. 

Yes yes I know, if tipping goes away then the bill will increase.  Sure.  But it'll require way less hand wringing.  I, for one, am all for this kind of simplicity. 

So, could you guys maybe start your movement to remove tipping now?  I'm likely to be back home this summer.  I'd like this all cleared up by then.  Thanks.  You're super.


« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 07:48:30 AM by Malaysia41 »

arebelspy

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #227 on: January 26, 2015, 07:55:00 AM »
beggar - a person who lives by begging for money, food, etc.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/beggar

monk - a man who is a member of a religious order and lives in a monastery
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monk

employee - a person who works for another person or for a company for wages or a salary
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/employee

I've never had my server beg for money, nor (I believe) have I had one who lives in a monastery.  So I'm in agreement with you that they are employees (of someone else, not me).

When you think of a food server into which of the three categories above do you classify them? 

I'll give you a hint - two of the three don't work and depend upon the charity of strangers.

Again, agree... (Well maybe not with the monk - they often work and sell things).

Beggars may or may not work in addition to begging.

But employees definitely do work, and don't depend on the charity of strangers.

If you know the correct answer you know why I don't tip and you shouldn't either.

That sure doesn't follow. Employees work.  They don't depend on the charity of others.  That's irrelevant to if I should tip them.  Tipping isn't charity. They're not begging.  It's payment for a job done well.

Yes yes I know, if tipping goes away then the bill will increase.  Sure.  But it'll require way less hand wringing.  I, for one, am all for this kind of simplicity. 

Me too!  I think nearly everyone agrees, even those of us advocating that you should tip well.  Let's get rid of it!

...but until we do, you ought to tip well, otherwise you're the cheap *.

We agree.  Get rid of it.  But skipping it yourself when it's not in place (and thus the bills haven't yet been increased to properly compensate them) is taking advantage of others.
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Malaysia41

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #228 on: January 26, 2015, 08:17:28 AM »

Yes yes I know, if tipping goes away then the bill will increase.  Sure.  But it'll require way less hand wringing.  I, for one, am all for this kind of simplicity. 

Me too!  I think nearly everyone agrees, even those of us advocating that you should tip well.  Let's get rid of it!

...but until we do, you ought to tip well, otherwise you're the cheap *.

We agree.  Get rid of it.  But skipping it yourself when it's not in place (and thus the bills haven't yet been increased to properly compensate them) is taking advantage of others.

I didn't meant to imply I don't tip in the states. Where it's customary, I follow custom.  And in this case I tip for exactly the reasons you mention. 

C'mon arebelspy!  Don't you know me better than that?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 09:02:15 AM by Malaysia41 »

okonumiyaki

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #229 on: January 26, 2015, 09:21:45 AM »
Again, from a non tipping country.

The one that stands out from this thread is that in the US you are meant to pay government employees to do their job?  (Mail men and garbage workers). Do that in Hong Kong and both of you are at severe risk of jail time for bribery, for offering and accepting a bribe.  It's much easier to just have zero tolerance of giving money to government workers, than to try and work out the line of a gift for better service versus a bribe.

arebelspy

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #230 on: January 26, 2015, 09:23:32 AM »

Yes yes I know, if tipping goes away then the bill will increase.  Sure.  But it'll require way less hand wringing.  I, for one, am all for this kind of simplicity. 

Me too!  I think nearly everyone agrees, even those of us advocating that you should tip well.  Let's get rid of it!

...but until we do, you ought to tip well, otherwise you're the cheap *.

We agree.  Get rid of it.  But skipping it yourself when it's not in place (and thus the bills haven't yet been increased to properly compensate them) is taking advantage of others.

I didn't meant to imply I don't tip in the states. Where it's customary, I follow custom.  And in this case I tip for exactly the reasons you mention. 

C'mon arebelspy!  Don't you know me better than that?

No, I know you wouldn't.  My main point was that even those of us arguing for tipping agree it's stupid.  But I couldn't say that without the disclaimer that even though it's stupid, you still need to do it while it exists.  That wasn't directed at you.  :)
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golden1

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #231 on: January 26, 2015, 10:05:57 AM »
People need to be honest in this thread and just admit that they aren't tipping not because they are making some bold social statement, but because they are cheap f&*ks who lack empathy and critical thinking skills.  How convenient that your way of "changing the system" is the least confrontational one and the one that benefits you the most!   

Seriously, I'll gain some respect if one of you tells your server at the start of the meal, before you are served, that you will not be tipping them and why.  Perhaps you could write an article explaining your position and get it published, or go the political route and run for office or start a petition to have a bill drafted to raise the minimum wage.  Otherwise, you are putting the burden of changing an admittedly messy and bad system onto the servers, which is simply not appropriate.  Otherwise, you are cowards, cheapskates, and you are rationalizing your own behavior at someone elses expense. 




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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #232 on: January 26, 2015, 10:22:53 AM »
Miss Manners and Ann Landers both agreed on this--tipping is pre-tax.

"...Knowing this, polite people leave at least the conventional tip (a 15 percent minimum before tax is added) regardless of the quality of the service. (If it is bad, they should complain, as in other cases when people do not perform adequately what they are hired to do.) "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31070-2004Nov6.html

partgypsy

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #233 on: January 26, 2015, 10:55:51 AM »
People need to be honest in this thread and just admit that they aren't tipping not because they are making some bold social statement, but because they are cheap f&*ks who lack empathy and critical thinking skills.  How convenient that your way of "changing the system" is the least confrontational one and the one that benefits you the most!   

Seriously, I'll gain some respect if one of you tells your server at the start of the meal, before you are served, that you will not be tipping them and why.  Perhaps you could write an article explaining your position and get it published, or go the political route and run for office or start a petition to have a bill drafted to raise the minimum wage.  Otherwise, you are putting the burden of changing an admittedly messy and bad system onto the servers, which is simply not appropriate.  Otherwise, you are cowards, cheapskates, and you are rationalizing your own behavior at someone elses expense.

I agree. I think everyone here who does not tip, should inform the server that they are not going to tip ahead of being served. If you are going to make a statement, make a statement! In my Dad's restaurant, if there was a situation where a customer said there was no tip or similar statement, my father make sure to speak with the customer to find out what the issue is. though knowing my father, if the person said, no offense to you, your restaurant or the server, I am against the institution of tipping for service at restaurants, my father would gently suggest getting a meal to-go or go to a fast-food establishment where tipping was not required, as if to someone simple, as you have no business being in a restaurant being waited on, if you do not intend to tip for service. 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 10:57:49 AM by partgypsy »

nereo

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #234 on: January 26, 2015, 11:52:14 AM »
Again, from a non tipping country.

The one that stands out from this thread is that in the US you are meant to pay government employees to do their job?  (Mail men and garbage workers). Do that in Hong Kong and both of you are at severe risk of jail time for bribery, for offering and accepting a bribe.  It's much easier to just have zero tolerance of giving money to government workers, than to try and work out the line of a gift for better service versus a bribe.

No - in the US you don't tip government employees. Ever (i think).
Tipping is mostly for private sector jobs, and for the service industry.  The main examples of people we tip are restaurant servers (in sit-down establishments), taxi-drivers, barbers/hair-stylists, bartenders, and the food-delivery guy (i.e. the guy that brings the pizza to your door).

These are all private industry peeps.  I can't think of a single example where it is appropriate (or even legal) for you to tip a government employee.

EDIT:  Yes, it appears some do tip their letter carrier (I personally never have).  My point above was meant to emphasize that tipping is overwhelmingly for private-sector, service-industry individuals. 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 12:19:27 PM by nereo »

frugalnacho

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #235 on: January 26, 2015, 11:55:32 AM »
Again, from a non tipping country.

The one that stands out from this thread is that in the US you are meant to pay government employees to do their job?  (Mail men and garbage workers). Do that in Hong Kong and both of you are at severe risk of jail time for bribery, for offering and accepting a bribe.  It's much easier to just have zero tolerance of giving money to government workers, than to try and work out the line of a gift for better service versus a bribe.

No - in the US you don't tip government employees.  Ever (i think).
Tipping is for private sector jobs, and for the service industry.  The main examples of people we tip are restaurant servers (in sit-down establishments), taxi-drivers, barbers/hair-stylists, bartenders, and the food-delivery guy (i.e. the guy that brings the pizza to your door).

These are all private industry peeps.  I can't think of a single example where it is appropriate (or even legal) for you to tip a government employee.

Mail workers are government employees and it has already been discussed in this thread that some do tip their mail carrier.

Some people tip the garbage man too, but he isn't a goverment worker.  He just works for some company that is contracted by the government.

nereo

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #236 on: January 26, 2015, 12:31:27 PM »
Mail workers are government employees and it has already been discussed in this thread that some do tip their mail carrier.

Some people tip the garbage man too, but he isn't a goverment worker.  He just works for some company that is contracted by the government.

I edited the earlier post, because yes - some people do tip their mail carriers and garbage men, even though Ms Manners says there is no need.
Also, the USPS is in that quasi-land where it is neither a true private company nor a government branch*.  UPS and FedEx are firmly private companies.   The garbage-man (or woman) is also a bit fuzzy; depending on where you live, he/she can work for an independent contractor hired by the government, or paid for by the building/HOA/landlord.  The former makes them independent government contractors, the latter a private business hired by a private entity.

But I would say it's very illegal to 'tip' your congressman, public-works inspector, DMV employee, IRS auditor, TSA officer, FBI agent or other 'direct' government employee.

* http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/consumerawareness/a/uspsabout.htm

Milizard

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #237 on: January 26, 2015, 12:50:21 PM »

This thread is exhausting (TBH I've skipped the middle pages).

We've been in SE Asia 2.5 yrs now.  No tipping.  It's wonderful. 

In the states, tipping now feels absurd. I sit there, staring at the check wondering why!?  Why must I do this math, navigate the latest 'norms' and customs, make all these judgments about waiter performance, living wages and what's fair in life?  God, I just want to eat a sandwich.  It shouldn't be this complicated.  Plus, I'd like to keep those $5 in my wallet. 

Yes yes I know, if tipping goes away then the bill will increase.  Sure.  But it'll require way less hand wringing.  I, for one, am all for this kind of simplicity. 

So, could you guys maybe start your movement to remove tipping now?  I'm likely to be back home this summer.  I'd like this all cleared up by then.  Thanks.  You're super.

+1   :-)
I just want to eat my damn sandwich too!

I hate having to judge people, and somehow be "above" someone else that way, but not really.  I don't need the extra work.  Actually, I'd prefer to find my own table, and I have no problem going up to the counter to order myself and get my own GD food.  It's quicker that way!  I get the table I want.  I don't have to sit around waiting for the server to come around.  And, I don't have to sit and analyze how well the server did.  Actually, I hardly ever notice how servers do, I just want to get out and get on with my day.  Not F around with the check, and the change, and the math, and the wondering, "is this enough or does it make me a cheap bastard/bitch?"  Screw that!  I have to judge just to be judged in return.  I find that distasteful.

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #238 on: January 26, 2015, 04:22:32 PM »
People need to be honest in this thread and just admit that they aren't tipping not because they are making some bold social statement, but because they are cheap f&*ks who lack empathy and critical thinking skills.  How convenient that your way of "changing the system" is the least confrontational one and the one that benefits you the most!   

Seriously, I'll gain some respect if one of you tells your server at the start of the meal, before you are served, that you will not be tipping them and why.  Perhaps you could write an article explaining your position and get it published, or go the political route and run for office or start a petition to have a bill drafted to raise the minimum wage.  Otherwise, you are putting the burden of changing an admittedly messy and bad system onto the servers, which is simply not appropriate.  Otherwise, you are cowards, cheapskates, and you are rationalizing your own behavior at someone elses expense.

I agree. I think everyone here who does not tip, should inform the server that they are not going to tip ahead of being served. If you are going to make a statement, make a statement! In my Dad's restaurant, if there was a situation where a customer said there was no tip or similar statement, my father make sure to speak with the customer to find out what the issue is. though knowing my father, if the person said, no offense to you, your restaurant or the server, I am against the institution of tipping for service at restaurants, my father would gently suggest getting a meal to-go or go to a fast-food establishment where tipping was not required, as if to someone simple, as you have no business being in a restaurant being waited on, if you do not intend to tip for service.

He could also pay his employees enough not to need to rely on the generosity of others. That would do far more good for his employees than kicking out paying customers.

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #239 on: January 26, 2015, 10:25:46 PM »
People need to be honest in this thread and just admit that they aren't tipping not because they are making some bold social statement, but because they are cheap f&*ks who lack empathy and critical thinking skills.  How convenient that your way of "changing the system" is the least confrontational one and the one that benefits you the most!   

Seriously, I'll gain some respect if one of you tells your server at the start of the meal, before you are served, that you will not be tipping them and why.  Perhaps you could write an article explaining your position and get it published, or go the political route and run for office or start a petition to have a bill drafted to raise the minimum wage.  Otherwise, you are putting the burden of changing an admittedly messy and bad system onto the servers, which is simply not appropriate.  Otherwise, you are cowards, cheapskates, and you are rationalizing your own behavior at someone elses expense.


Sorry, but I don't need to earn your respect.

A tip is a gratuity...not a requirement.

As a customer, I am under no obligation to inform anyone working there whether I will be tipping or not.
That is not my job.

However, if the establishment states up front, in plain English, that a tip/ service charge  will be added to my bill automatically, I will then make a decision to stay or leave.

To inform intentions upfront of not tipping, why would I risk my food being tampered with.

If a restaurant owner ever questioned me after the fact, of why I didn't tip, and then state I should order take away in the future, then I would not ever dine there again.

Why should it matter to others, whether I tip or not?

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #240 on: January 27, 2015, 01:45:22 AM »
Why should it matter to others, whether I tip or not?

Because it matters to the server.

Why go to establishments where a part of the experience, right or wrong, is interacting with a person who is solely dependent on you for making a living?

To exploit them over your selfish desire to live in a tip free society in some sort of attempt to change the service industry?

To help them see the errors in their ways in choosing their current job?

Do you think they'd thank you for enlightening them with your passive aggressive ways? Do you not care what they think? I have to ask what the heck are you doing interacting with them again?

Some of you people are ridiculous.

I rarely go to restaurants and prefer homemade meals. When I do go to a restaurant I tip generously.Tips are such a minute portion of my overall spending. I don't feel the need to be an asshole to a random person.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 01:49:40 AM by dhlogic »

Peacefulwarrior

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #241 on: January 27, 2015, 02:41:16 AM »
Why should it matter to others, whether I tip or not?

Because it matters to the server.

Why go to establishments where a part of the experience, right or wrong, is interacting with a person who is solely dependent on you for making a living?

To exploit them over your selfish desire to live in a tip free society in some sort of attempt to change the service industry?

To help them see the errors in their ways in choosing their current job?

Do you think they'd thank you for enlightening them with your passive aggressive ways? Do you not care what they think? I have to ask what the heck are you doing interacting with them again?

Some of you people are ridiculous.

I rarely go to restaurants and prefer homemade meals. When I do go to a restaurant I tip generously.Tips are such a minute portion of my overall spending. I don't feel the need to be an asshole to a random person.

I live in Europe and here the waiters make a fine living with no tips and tipping is not common here. But in many restaurants I've been to in the US they automatically add a 10% tip to the bill (and write this in the bottom of their menu for example). How common is this these days?

kathrynd

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #242 on: January 27, 2015, 03:34:33 AM »
Why should it matter to others, whether I tip or not?

Because it matters to the server.

Why go to establishments where a part of the experience, right or wrong, is interacting with a person who is solely dependent on you for making a living?

To exploit them over your selfish desire to live in a tip free society in some sort of attempt to change the service industry?

To help them see the errors in their ways in choosing their current job?

Do you think they'd thank you for enlightening them with your passive aggressive ways? Do you not care what they think? I have to ask what the heck are you doing interacting with them again?

Some of you people are ridiculous.

I rarely go to restaurants and prefer homemade meals. When I do go to a restaurant I tip generously.Tips are such a minute portion of my overall spending. I don't feel the need to be an asshole to a random person.

I certainly don't know where or why you go to a restaurant, but the server is not on my list of priorities.

I do not care if they have a family,if they are  paying their way thru school, or having a bad day etc.
I am always polite to them, give them my order, don't ask for anything special.

Obviously you consider yourself a 'big spender', and that is fine.
That makes YOU happy.

By me not wanting to give a stranger money, for simply doing their job and calling someone an asshole...

When I go into the store, and someone waits on me and asks if there is anything they can help me with...I certainly don't tip them

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #243 on: January 27, 2015, 05:57:28 AM »
I live in Europe and here the waiters make a fine living with no tips and tipping is not common here. But in many restaurants I've been to in the US they automatically add a 10% tip to the bill (and write this in the bottom of their menu for example). How common is this these days?

It varies from establishment to establishment.  I'd say what's most common is the phrase "Gratuity of 15% (now often 18%) is added to parties of 6 or more."  You see that quite often.  I also don't understand that philosophy much... I know larger parties take more work and subsequently have higher bills - i guess servers are worried about getting 'stiffed' from a large party...?   But then it takes the optionality away from the whole thing.

caliq

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #244 on: January 27, 2015, 06:47:56 AM »
I live in Europe and here the waiters make a fine living with no tips and tipping is not common here. But in many restaurants I've been to in the US they automatically add a 10% tip to the bill (and write this in the bottom of their menu for example). How common is this these days?

It varies from establishment to establishment.  I'd say what's most common is the phrase "Gratuity of 15% (now often 18%) is added to parties of 6 or more."  You see that quite often.  I also don't understand that philosophy much... I know larger parties take more work and subsequently have higher bills - i guess servers are worried about getting 'stiffed' from a large party...?   But then it takes the optionality away from the whole thing.

It's also probably got a lot to do with the fact that big parties usually split the bill, and most people are not that great at figuring out tips or remembering to leave 1/6 of the proper tip amount...so I would guess that servers often got stiffed even when the big parties meant to tip properly.  From personal experience, 100% of my friends are big fans of the automatic gratuity on big parties, because they don't enjoy figuring it out for themselves. 

OSUBearCub

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #245 on: January 27, 2015, 09:02:56 AM »
I'm a former restaurant manager and some of the attitudes on here are despicable.  How low some of you think of a very valid and very challenging profession!  (Fair warning, I'm only speaking of the US in my comments.)

First - most of the anti-tippers have NO idea what a server is expected to do when they walk away from the table.  No one has mentioned preparing your (often complicated) salad, preparing your soup, or preparing your desert.  No one has mentioned communicating with the kitchen line to ensure your burger/steak is prepared right, that your request to omit an ingredient is fulfilled, or to prod on the line cooks to get the plate out in a reasonable time.  No one has mentioned navigating the bottle neck of a kitchen line when her five tables worth of food are queued up behind the OTHER 25 tables in the restaurant.  Also, no one has mentioned that there is an equal and equivalent level of server duty when she orders from the bar.  And let's not forget about bussing your table, grabbing your child a high chair/bib/crayons, and then cleaning her section (wipe, vacuum, dig into banquette crevices to get the crumbs out, reset the entire table in finer establishments - which includes polishing crystal and silver).

Your server isn't a mindless robot that jabs an order into a screen and waits to pick it up...one table at a time.  It's a physically, mentally challenging juggling act - that when done well - must look effortless.   

We tip because our society developed the custom at a time when we were willing to recognize the skill and talent of waitstaff.  Unfortunately, as our culture became more casual, we never bothered to develop specific norms for the restaurants that fall into the "casual" or "family" categories (table service but fewer courses/options/complications).  You may not value the level of service at these establishments as much as a fine steakhouse, but please refresh yourself on what I laid out two paragraphs above.  Servers in the US are not paid minimum wage.  They are almost universally paid 1/2 the minimum wage in their state.

If you can't appreciate the services a server provides you and if you are not willing to bend to the convention of tipping based on the quality of that service, you have no business sitting at a table in any restaurant and expecting service.   And honestly, the McDonald's drive-thru will save you more money over all and provide less mental anguish when the bill doesn't have a tip line.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 09:29:47 AM by OSUBearCub »

arebelspy

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #246 on: January 27, 2015, 09:13:21 AM »
I certainly don't know where or why you go to a restaurant, but the server is not on my list of priorities.

I do not care if they have a family,if they are  paying their way thru school, or having a bad day etc.

Wow, seriously?  What the *.

You're saying you don't care about other people.

Got it.

I can't do anything but laugh and shake my head.  To me, treating people well is important, yes.  It seems as though there's no point in trying to reason with you, because we're coming from two completely different ethos.
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dd564

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #247 on: January 27, 2015, 09:18:39 AM »
Wow.

I only browse this forum occasionally, but this thread is revelaing who the pathetic and self-centered people there are on here.


dd564

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #248 on: January 27, 2015, 09:36:32 AM »
If you are not going to tip (in America), don't dine out. It just isn't for you. You not tipping is not some groundbreaking rebellion from societal norms, it is you being a cheap jerk and giving frugality a bad name.

Feel free to break societal norms by not dining out at all.

I should have just quoted this as it's 100% accurate.
I dont' eat out often (maybe twice a year), but when I do the last person I'm going to try and save a buck over is the person working hard serving food.
If you want to live in a closet and not participate in the outside world where currency is used, that's fine, but don't take advantage of the people working hard to help yourself retire early. 

olivia

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Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #249 on: January 27, 2015, 09:41:03 AM »
I certainly don't know where or why you go to a restaurant, but the server is not on my list of priorities.

I do not care if they have a family,if they are  paying their way thru school, or having a bad day etc.

Wow, seriously?  What the *.

You're saying you don't care about other people.

Got it.

I can't do anything but laugh and shake my head.  To me, treating people well is important, yes.  It seems as though there's no point in trying to reason with you, because we're coming from two completely different ethos.

Yeah I want to tell myself it's a troll because I sometimes forget that incredibly selfish and cowardly people like kathrynd exist since I choose to surround myself with people who aren't total assholes.