Bizarre restaurant tipping incident

[arebelspy]

I hate doing mental math, so just double the tax and round up. That gets me around 15-20% tip. I only tip at restaurants though. All this crap about tipping the mailman, etc - no. You're outta luck, and if you don't like it find a better paying job.

I find it weird that people that don't like math double the tip. If you can double, can't you shift a decimal one place and the double?  Then you aren't relying on a multiple of the tax (and whatever percentage that happens to be at).

[purplish]

To the anti-tipping comments:

If you're against tipping, the correct thing to do: Attempt to pass a law requiring it is outlawed and waiters/bartenders make a normal wage.

Wrong thing: Not tip!

As a former bartender, who made $2.25 an hour plus tips.... you realize if you didn't tip, I'd essentially be making your drink for free?  Sorry but no, since tipping is the norm, do it.  When I bartended I made about $25 an hour in tips... so you're saying people should feel fine going to just minimum wage?  Again, since its the norm, that's what you need to do.  Otherwise, don't go out.

And on the topic of "just sue them".  Umm.... your privilege is showing.  As said above, there would be no real proof, plus a low wage individual going up against a big chain, I HIGHLY doubt that would work, and then they'd be in debt from the ordeal.  I mean seriously, I've had lots of illegal things happen at jobs (sexual harassment, etc), and I'm not exactly alone in this... most women in general have experienced this type of things at jobs, it's almost the norm.  When I started my last bartending job, I wasn't even legally on the books for the first 6 months.  So if they refused to pay me, how would I have sued?

[GuitarStv]

To the anti-tipping comments:

If you're against tipping, the correct thing to do: Attempt to pass a law requiring it is outlawed and waiters/bartenders make a normal wage.

Wrong thing: Not tip!

As a former bartender, who made $2.25 an hour plus tips.... you realize if you didn't tip, I'd essentially be making your drink for free?  Sorry but no, since tipping is the norm, do it.  When I bartended I made about $25 an hour in tips... so you're saying people should feel fine going to just minimum wage?  Again, since its the norm, that's what you need to do.  Otherwise, don't go out.

Alternatively, you are making the drink for your wage.  The choice to stick with a job where you depend on panhandling to supplement this wage is entirely your own, and shouldn't be used to attempt to blackmail folks. 

[austin]

Lol, looks like there are a few people on this site who probably think Mr. Pink was supposed to be a sympathetic character.

I try to provide a good eample as a frugal person - act as an ambassador for financial responsibility and frugality. I do this by quietly riding my bike to work, packing my lunch, using a "dumb" phone, and giving financial advice when asked. Hopefully other folks here try to the same. The greatest way I could undermine that attempt to portray frugality positively is by going to a work lunch and leaving a terrible tip. Even worse would be to then agrue about it. I'd be outing myself as a cheapskate, not frugal.

[Villanelle]

I agree that tipping is silly.  But it is a cultural expectation in certain situations.  If I don't want to tip, the way I accomplish that is by not choosing situations where tipping is expected, not by benefitting from the cheaper food that goes with the tipping culture and then also not tipping.  If you don't want to tip, don't go to restaurants, carry your own bags, etc.  To put yourself in situations were tipping is the standard and then not tip makes you an asshole.  It is not civil disobedience or anything akin to that to stiff people who rely on tips. 

[James]

I find tipping to be a very personal thing. Telling others how to tip is just rude in my opinion. If asked, I would let anyone know how I tip, but I wouldn't presume to instruct others, argue, or criticize.

I do alter my tip to the situation. I tend to tip a higher amount when ordering cheap food and no alcohol, and less when the meal is expensive but service wasn't anything special. The quality of the food, the timing of the glass fillings, the professionalism of the server, and anything else I see fit comes into the general feeling I have about how much I am going to tip. I would absolutely leave nothing for a tip if I felt the service deserved it, and I have left a tip of over 50% well. Average is probably around 18%. (I look at post-tax number, but wouldn't argue against using the pre-tax number, life is too short and who cares. The argument for using pre-tax numbers is sound, but who cares, most use post-tax)

At a local Mexican restaurant we visit, my typical order is two tacos and water. I ask for pico with the chips and on the tacos, and they don't charge extra. The meal is extremely good and very cheap, so I end up giving a 50% tip on my part of the meal, and am happy to do so.

Don't be an ass with how you tip, and don't be an ass in telling others how to tip.

[Copperwood]

I fail to see how poor tipping habits and pennypinching are deserving of death.

i hope "poor tipping" isn't defined as less than 20% and/or on the pre-tax amount

[I'm a red panda]

Our tax is 8.5%, so I just double tax. 
So I guess I tip on pre-tax amount, and tip 17%.
I would never leave less than a dollar per person.


I hate people who say that 20% instead of 15% should be the minimum acceptable tip because "cost of living has gone up". Well, so has cost of food. Percentages take care of that already.

[frugalnacho]

Didn't read the entire thread...

I agree that in reality the difference between pre-tax and post tax is probably not much.  I don't know what the actual sales tax rates are across the US, but I can't imagine more than a 10% difference between the highest and lowest, and if you tip 20% then you are effectively adding maximum 2% to your total bill in the worst case scenario - not a huge amount.  Michigan sales tax is 6%, so if I leave a 20% tip and include the tax the waiter is effectively getting an additional 1.2% on my bill (or

However I always understood it that you calculate the tip pretax and I don't understand the hatred lobbed at the OP, or calling him "cheap".  I dislike the entire concept of obligatory tipping, but tipping on sales tax? That doesn't even make sense.  Why would you tip the waiter a percentage of tax that is going directly to the tax man and has nothing to do the service or the price of the food?  The waiter gets a better tip because the state he lives in imposes a higher sales tax?  Michigan sales tax is 6%, so if I leave a 20% tip and include the tax the waiter is effectively getting an additional 1.2%

I also don't buy the "it makes the math easier" argument.  Everyone should be able to calculate 15% or 20% on any amount - pre or post tax.  And if you can't, every person I know has a calculator in their pocket.

[frugalnacho]

It's only been like 5 minutes, but the more I think about it the more insane tipping on post-tax amount is.  The increase in tip seems trivial as a percentage of the total bill, but not as a percentage of the actual tip.  The difference in pre-tax and post-tax calculations will be directly proportional to the sales tax.  So in michigan with a 6% sales tax the server is getting an increase in tip of 6% between the two calculations.  In places with higher sales tax it's even higher. 

[slugline]

Emily Post (and her descendants) say that tipping is done on the pre-tax amount:

http://www.emilypost.com/out-and-about/tipping/89-general-tipping-guidelines

Consider that the custom of tipping in America was established well before most sales taxes were enacted. If you wish to calculate your own personal tipping on the post-tax amount, knock yourself out -- technically, you can claim that you're tipping at a slightly higher percentage than necessary.

[Sid888]

I recently got together with a few friends, and since we hadn't seen each other in a while we decided to go to a nice sushi restaurant for dinner.  When the check came one friend took it to start calculating how much each person owed, including tax and tip.  When I got around to looking at the check, I noticed something strange - she had calculated the tip based on the post-tax total, not the pre-tax.  I assumed that she'd just mis-read the total bill, but when I asked her about this, she informed me that it was cheap and inappropriate not to tip on the post tax amount.  I tried to explain that the restaurant doesn't receive that tax money, and so tipping on it makes no sense.  She replied by telling me I was cheating the waiter.  I would have argued further, but my head was too busy exploding.  I ended up only tipping on the pre-tax amount, and I'm pretty sure she thinks I'm some kind of boorish jerk.

So is tipping on the post-tax total at restaurants now the standard protocol?  Or is my friend just crazy?  I just can't believe that this is a thing.

I tip post tax (15-20%) mostly because I'm too lazy to find the pre-tax line but you are correct and you shouldn't feel cheap - at all - for tipping pre-tax.  Our tip economy came about in an era of a large middle class, retirement security, cheap college, full employment, annual raises and bonuses...there's a reason everyone pays with a credit card at Starbuck's these days...the tip culture is getting a little overbearing for current economic conditions.

[TheFrugalFox]

Some really weird responses - plus some guys really coming off as cheapskates.

I just look at the total amount and add the tip on - but round up. Irritates me when people are that pedantic that they work out tips to the cent.
Waiters do not get paid well because there is an unwritten rule that the customers tips make up a fair wage - people saying that they do not get a tip, why should waiters, are just cheapskates in my book. You that cheap you probably did not enjoy the meal (and horror, the expense) in the first place. Just stay at home.

[Silverwood]

This is why I dont eat out.

I dont like tipping for something I consider to be your job. If you did an amazing job then sure I guess 15%. To feel bad because you decided to get a job based on tips and not your wage... well not my problem

[Guses]

Irritates me when people are that pedantic that they work out tips to the cent.

What the heck is this board? The Mr. MoneyPaymore board where societal expectation is how our money should be spent?! Why would you pay more... just cause? Do you also Paymore at walmart because who looks at cents on the receipt anyway?

I don't get the angst and anger this topic is generating. A job is a job is a job, most get hung up on the 2$ per hour figure, but as said earlier some waiters/bartenders generate 25+$/hour just in tips. That is several times what the walmart greeter/cashier gets. And yet, nobody tips these guys....

Most places I go, they have credit card terminals where you can specify the percentage of tip that you want to leave (calculated pre-tax FYI). So I just set this at 15% and don't worry about that.

[Sofa King]

To put yourself in situations were tipping is the standard and then not tip makes you an asshole.  It is not civil disobedience or anything akin to that to stiff people who rely on tips.

I concur.

[Sofa King]

What about tipping a Valet who is getting your car in all types of weather? From extreme cold to extreme hot and heavy rain or snow.   How much should that tip be?

[arebelspy]

What about tipping a Valet who is getting your car in all types of weather? From extreme cold to extreme hot and heavy rain or snow.   How much should that tip be?

I choose not to use those situations.  But if I did, I'd research the proper amount and pay it.

Just like I rarely stay in a hotel, but I tip the maid when I do (though I typically do "do not disturb" for multiple days, then tip the last day, the only one requiring service).  I don't use bellhops when I go to hotels, so no need to tip there.

I do eat out at restaurants, and always tip 20%+.

If you are putting yourself in the situation where you should tip, then you ought to tip.

[Timmmy]

Well since I live a life of extreme luxury where people cook me whatever food I want from a list, bring it to me along with unlimited glasses of my beverage of choice, and then clean everything up after I am gone.  I have no problem tipping like the insanely rich person that I must be.  I tip well.  All the time.  There are a few places that I go on a regular basis and waitresses that I see on a regular basis.  I get insanely good service as a result of my previous good tipping when I go there.  The few extra dollars here and there won't break me but it guarantees that I get good service and hopefully it makes my servers day better. 

[Sofa King]

If you are putting yourself in the situation where you should tip, then you ought to tip.

I concur.

[frugalnacho]

Why don't you extend that same logic to all things in life?  I mean this computer I am typing on...someone extracted metal ore from the earth, and someone else smelted it into metal...meanwhile someone was extracting crude oil and sending it to someone else who turned it into plastic, then multiple other someones combined it all into this computer using years of research and development.  And someone else created the internet, and physically built all the connections, and provided me service...

And here I sit on my computer with high speed internet access.  Arguably orders of magnitude more complex than simply cooking your food and cleaning it up.  And yet not one of those people in the chain got tipped by me.  They all charged a fair price for their service, and got paid that price without tip.

I also never tip hotel maids.  It's literally their job, and they don't rely on tips - they get paid at least minimum wage.  I (and my coworkers) stay at hotels all the time and no one ever tips the maids unless they make a huge mess for the maid, like vomit in the bathroom or something disgusting that the maid should probably not be responsible for cleaning up.  But washing my towels and making the bed?  That's their god damn job.

[Spork]

What about tipping a Valet who is getting your car in all types of weather? From extreme cold to extreme hot and heavy rain or snow.   How much should that tip be?

I go out of my way (when remotely possible) to park somewhere that doesn't have a valet.  Walk a ways?  Yes, please.  I don't begrudge the guy that parks cars.  I just don't want him parking mine.

I still remember the Christmas party from 20 years ago where my wife's shiny new Mustang came back from the valet dragging its front spoiler on the ground with a grinding noise.  "It was like that when you came in."  Right.

[golden1]

I wonder how many of the anti-tip people have ever worked a job where your wages are dependant on tips?  A little empathy goes a long way....

A lot of compensation practices are stupid.  Tipping is particularly stupid IMO.  However, it is the reality for now, and as someone who worked a variety of service jobs, I remember how the occasional big tip would brighten my day.  I would rather pinch pennies some other way, so I usually tip generously. 

[frugalnacho]

Who else do you guys tip?

Mail men?

Garbage men?

Hair dresser?

Maid?

Teachers?

Dog groomers?

I don't tip any of these, and i've had discussions with other people and been accused of being cheap for not tipping them.  I wonder where everyone else falls on this issue.

[arebelspy]

Everyone makes the choice for themselves on which of those they feel necessary to tip.

I don't feel I need to tip on any of those, no.  If I voluntarily parked at a valet, yes, I would feel I ought to tip.

[frugalnacho]

Next time you should ask her why the customer, who has already paid for the product and service, is expected to pay additional amounts for service that was already paid for? Ask her why the customer is the jerk for not paying a tip, but the employer is not a jerk for not paying higher wages?

Tipping is one of the worst customs in our society. And one of the most misunderstood. It's one of those things that no one can talk about because people are uninformed. Waiters make minimum wage in wages + tips or their employer has to make up the difference. You aren't cheating anyone but yourself for being a sucker and wasting money paying for a simple service.

I don't tip at all. Which doesn't cause much problems because I don't to spend money at places that would expect a tip.

This always seems like such a cop-out to me.  Yes, it'd be easier if the employer paid more and we weren't expected to tip.  But you know what - eating out would be more expensive then.  I see it as a six of one, half a dozen of another situation. 

I will say that if you hold this position then r3dt does the right thing by not going to places that expect tips.  If you don't want to tip then don't go out to eat at a sit down restaurant.  If you find yourself in that situation then suck it up and tip.  I feel like those that take a "moral" stance or whatever against it are just looking for an easy way out of spending more money.

How so? If i'm paying 15-20% extra, then why can't that just be incorporated into the price?  That's what i'm paying now and it is apparently sufficient.

[Alenzia]

My sister who worked as a server for a few years always told me to just double the tax and round up for the tip, which usually ends up in the 15-18% range - that would imply that the tip is on the pre-tax amount, not post-tax.

[frugalnacho]

Next time you should ask her why the customer, who has already paid for the product and service, is expected to pay additional amounts for service that was already paid for? Ask her why the customer is the jerk for not paying a tip, but the employer is not a jerk for not paying higher wages?

Tipping is one of the worst customs in our society. And one of the most misunderstood. It's one of those things that no one can talk about because people are uninformed. Waiters make minimum wage in wages + tips or their employer has to make up the difference. You aren't cheating anyone but yourself for being a sucker and wasting money paying for a simple service.

I don't tip at all. Which doesn't cause much problems because I don't to spend money at places that would expect a tip.

This always seems like such a cop-out to me.  Yes, it'd be easier if the employer paid more and we weren't expected to tip.  But you know what - eating out would be more expensive then.  I see it as a six of one, half a dozen of another situation. 

I will say that if you hold this position then r3dt does the right thing by not going to places that expect tips.  If you don't want to tip then don't go out to eat at a sit down restaurant.  If you find yourself in that situation then suck it up and tip.  I feel like those that take a "moral" stance or whatever against it are just looking for an easy way out of spending more money.

How so? If i'm paying 15-20% extra, then why can't that just be incorporated into the price?  That's what i'm paying now and it is apparently sufficient.

Sorry - which part are you paying now?  Confused by your post.

I'm saying that a meal that costs $10 in the US now would probably cost between $11 and $12 if tipping wasn't the norm here.  So in place of a tip you'd pay a higher price for restaurant food. 

Regardless, the point is that wait staff in the country is expected to receive a tip of some kind.  If you disagree with that it's completely fine, but then stay out of restaurants all together.  You're not 'sticking it to the man' or whatever - you're sticking it to the college kid that's waiting on your table.

I don't think you are confused, you understand exactly.  Instead of having a social obligation of tipping, just build that 15-20% into the actual price.  Everything will increase 15-20%.  It's not the total price (which should end up the same either way), it's the entire practice of tipping.  Tipping should be for excellent service above and beyond what the job entails.  My boss does not bid jobs 15-20% low, and decrease my pay with the expectation that our clients will subsidize my wages through tips - he pays a fair wage and builds that into the cost of his services.  That's exactly what restaurants should also do.

[TheFrugalFox]

Who else do you guys tip?

Mail men?

Garbage men?

Hair dresser?

Maid?

Teachers?

Dog groomers?

I don't tip any of these, and i've had discussions with other people and been accused of being cheap for not tipping them.  I wonder where everyone else falls on this issue.

In South Africa  mail men and garbage men usually get a some money around Christmas.

We also have a unique and rather irritating "job" where unemployed guys "help" you park then guard your car - along with a few others. For this service you expected to give a tip - which I give sometimes - unemployment is pretty high out here.

We also have guys that fill our cars with gas/petrol - they also usually get a tip when they do a bit extra like clean the windscreen/ check tire pressure ect.

We tip small amounts but quite often through out the day.

[Runge]

I don't think you are confused, you understand exactly.  Instead of having a social obligation of tipping, just build that 15-20% into the actual price.  Everything will increase 15-20%.  It's not the total price (which should end up the same either way), it's the entire practice of tipping.  Tipping should be for excellent service above and beyond what the job entails.  My boss does not bid jobs 15-20% low, and decrease my pay with the expectation that our clients will subsidize my wages through tips - he pays a fair wage and builds that into the cost of his services.  That's exactly what restaurants should also do.

There are probably a few ways that could make that change in the restaurant business, but the one that sticks out to me is simply customers not tipping. Yes, it temporarily hurts the server's wages, and it does place a financial burden on the servers. The servers would have to quit waiting tables to find better paying jobs, and guess what? Now there's a huge demand for waiters and waitresses. Businesses need waiters and waitresses to keep their business going, so what do they do? They increase their wages paid to waiters and waitresses, but to make that financially feasible for the business, they must increase the price of the meal. And the end result is the customer paying the same price as they were before while creating a huge temporary hardship on the servers and businesses.

I'm personally of the camp that at $10 meal pre-tip is going to cost $11-$12, and the same meal at the same location with the tip rolled into the price is going to cost $11-$12. If you're uncomfortable paying that amount for a meal, then don't eat there. Otherwise the price you pay will be the same whether or not the business include the price for service or not. It's economics, people.

[The_path_less_taken]

Who else do you guys tip?

Mail men?

Garbage men?

Hair dresser?

Maid?

Teachers?

Dog groomers?

I don't tip any of these, and i've had discussions with other people and been accused of being cheap for not tipping them.  I wonder where everyone else falls on this issue.

*****************


Everyone on that list except mailmen and teachers do expect some sort of acknowledgement at Xmas. Most count on it, and yes maids do too. I didn't realize this EITHER until I stayed at a hotel with a friend but when I looked into it and spoke to maids...they do expect it and are often paid minimum wage.

Your mileage may vary on a lot of this. Example: There were 100+ mile an hour winds here last week. But I tip my garbage guy and he always brings the can back to the locked gate, versus me chasing it through miles of sagebrush in the dark/snow. A deal, in my book. He also takes some stuff he probably isn't required to take, like a broken window I jammed in the can that stuck out 3-4 ft...no idea if it's because I tip or he's a nice dude. Don't care, going to tip him again this year.

Due to the wind and no actual house mail delivery here in the boonies, I go to the post office about once a week. They know my NAME and greet me by name as I walk up to the counter. When I get live chicks/ducklings delivered they phone me at 6am to come and get them: versus 9am when they are supposed to, which is better for my animals. I appreciate it, and drop them a few bags of chocolate at xmas. And yes...this first year of MMM I'm going to do it as well. I might scale down to one bag next year though...

frugalnacho...have you ever considered doing your own research in your area? I know that regions of the country vary. But I've know hairdressers in NYC, New Orleans, NV, CA and they all expect a tip.

I do my own hair now but if I went to them, I would tip. ESPECIALLY around the holiday when most consumer suckas really need that cash.

[Cassie]

Yes hairdressers expect tips.  The only time you don't is if they own the salon.  Yes you should tip the maids for every night you spend in a motel/hotel.  I don't know a soul that does not do this. At xmas I give a good tip to my hairdresser, house cleaners, groomer, newspaper carrier.  I have known people that work as servers & they need the tips to live.  Also casino dealers, etc depend on tips.  don't want to tip then stay home.  It is economics-food would be more expensive if the restaurant paid more & you would be paying the same amount of $.  When my kids were in school we sent gifts to the teachers at xmas.  We have always been frugal but there is a big difference between that & being cheap.  Tipping a decent amount at xmas shows people that provide services to you all year long that you appreciate the service they provide.

[GuitarStv]

All work provides a service.  Some allow panhandling to supplement income.  A very few have become so accustomed to the begging, that it's now expected as a part of their wages.  The fact that so few people question this is bizarre.

[plainjane]

Yes you should tip the maids for every night you spend in a motel/hotel.  I don't know a soul that does not do this.

Some of us who grew up never staying a night at a hotel (we always camped or stayed at friends/family), I didn't realize this was a thing until I was informed. Ditto taxis (I still am not sure what proportion to tip).  This is not something people magically know.  At some point it was taught in some way.

And it's likely a regional thing too.  I mean, do you tip the maids in New Zealand?  You don't tip the waiters.

[GreenPen]

I agree that in reality the difference between pre-tax and post tax is probably not much.  I don't know what the actual sales tax rates are across the US, but I can't imagine more than a 10% difference between the highest and lowest, and if you tip 20% then you are effectively adding maximum 2% to your total bill in the worst case scenario - not a huge amount.  Michigan sales tax is 6%, so if I leave a 20% tip and include the tax the waiter is effectively getting an additional 1.2% on my bill

On each individual table, the difference might not be much. But seen from the server's perspective--who sees lots of tables--its tantamount to a 1-2% difference in pay, which is a big deal.

I've worked as a server at 4 different restaurants over the years, including one restaurant for fancy-pants. At least at the fancy-pants place (where I worked the longest), most servers would consider a tip to be on the pre-tax amount. So if someone tipped 20% on the post-tax amount, I would consider it a tip of over 20%. It's also the pre-tax amount that we would "tip-out" on (so for example, I would give ~3% of my pre-tax total sales to food runners and bussers). And it wouldn't make sense to tie server pay to tax rates.

I tip 15-20% depending on service, but never on tax or a bottle of anything served with the meal.

I can never wrap my head around why someone would tip on food but not wine. The server doesn't make the wine, but the server doesn't make the food either. Also, at the fancy-pants place, I would spent much more time studying wine than I would studying the menu. And serving wine takes longer than serving food (because it requires a presentation, and often decanting), and it also requires that the server babysit a table throughout the meal to continually pour.

But the wine issue isn't that important for most of us here, since only a sucka would buy wine at a restaurant.

[arebelspy]

I don't think you are confused, you understand exactly.  Instead of having a social obligation of tipping, just build that 15-20% into the actual price.  Everything will increase 15-20%.  It's not the total price (which should end up the same either way), it's the entire practice of tipping.  Tipping should be for excellent service above and beyond what the job entails.  My boss does not bid jobs 15-20% low, and decrease my pay with the expectation that our clients will subsidize my wages through tips - he pays a fair wage and builds that into the cost of his services.  That's exactly what restaurants should also do.

Sure, that'd be great.

And that is the way certain societies are set up.

But others underpay their workers in order to be able to have cheaper prices by 15-20% and the customer pays that gap via tips.

I agree with you that skipping the tipping and having fair wages built in would be a lot better.  But that's simply not the case, so I'm not going to be the asshole undertipping the server when that is the expectation in that society.

[Cassie]

You tip maids between $1.00-2.00 per night.  Taxi drivers get 20%.  I tip maids when I am in other countries.  I also don't know anyone that does not tip on the whole bill.  I saw the post about excluding the wine & thought that was strange.

[frugalnacho]

I don't think you are confused, you understand exactly.  Instead of having a social obligation of tipping, just build that 15-20% into the actual price.  Everything will increase 15-20%.  It's not the total price (which should end up the same either way), it's the entire practice of tipping.  Tipping should be for excellent service above and beyond what the job entails.  My boss does not bid jobs 15-20% low, and decrease my pay with the expectation that our clients will subsidize my wages through tips - he pays a fair wage and builds that into the cost of his services.  That's exactly what restaurants should also do.

Sure, that'd be great.

And that is the way certain societies are set up.

But others underpay their workers in order to be able to have cheaper prices by 15-20% and the customer pays that gap via tips.

I agree with you that skipping the tipping and having fair wages built in would be a lot better.  But that's simply not the case, so I'm not going to be the asshole undertipping the server when that is the expectation in that society.

Unless you calculate your 15% tip on a pre-tax basis.  Then people that calculate theirs on a post-tax basis will call you an asshole undertipper.

[Gin1984]

I don't think you are confused, you understand exactly.  Instead of having a social obligation of tipping, just build that 15-20% into the actual price.  Everything will increase 15-20%.  It's not the total price (which should end up the same either way), it's the entire practice of tipping.  Tipping should be for excellent service above and beyond what the job entails.  My boss does not bid jobs 15-20% low, and decrease my pay with the expectation that our clients will subsidize my wages through tips - he pays a fair wage and builds that into the cost of his services.  That's exactly what restaurants should also do.

Sure, that'd be great.

And that is the way certain societies are set up.

But others underpay their workers in order to be able to have cheaper prices by 15-20% and the customer pays that gap via tips.

I agree with you that skipping the tipping and having fair wages built in would be a lot better.  But that's simply not the case, so I'm not going to be the asshole undertipping the server when that is the expectation in that society.

Unless you calculate your 15% tip on a pre-tax basis.  Then people that calculate theirs on a post-tax basis will call you an asshole undertipper.

I'd call you that not because of the pre-tac vs post tax but because you are tipping 15, not 20%.  But that just means I would not go out to eat with you again because I won't walk out under tipping (which I think 15% is) and I don't wish to tip because you won't. 

[frugalnacho]

I was just making a point, but you only tip 20%, like an animal? 25 is the new 20 in case you haven't heard.

[GreenPen]

So there are obviously two different issues. One is whether or not tipping is is a proper custom. The other is whether or not we have some obligation to tip, given that the custom is in place.

I think that most people (including servers) think the tipping system in America is a shitty one. On top of reasons already mentioned in this thread, tipping tends to be a place where all of our implicit biases come out. White servers get tipped more than minorities, men get tipped more than women, and attractive women get tipped more than women who people find unattractive. It's a crappy racist and sexist system.

But I'm not convinced that the way to get rid of it is by not tipping, as suggested in the quote below. Given that the custom is in place, I would argue that the customer enters into an implicit contract when she agrees to be waited on by the server. If he doesn't want to tip, he shouldn't enter into that contract by going to the restaurant. (Or at least: he should let the server/restaurant know that he will not be tipping beforehand, so the server can make an informed decision on whether to offer her services).

Keep in mind that we enter into implicit contracts all the time. When a kid asks if she can shovel my driveway, it would be wrong for me to let her shovel my driveway and then not pay her (since saying that she could shovel it implies that I would pay her). If I didn't want to pay her, a better response would be to not let her shovel it in the first place or to get someone else to do it (or do it myself). Along these lines, if you don't want to tip a server, you shouldn't imply that you will tip them by accepting their services. A proper response would be to go to a restaurant that doesn't require tipping, or cook the food yourself.

Note that a restaurant near us pays all employees $12/hour and asks customers not to tip. In the rare occasions that I do eat out, I like to go there. That seems like a better way to change our society's tipping norms.

I don't think you are confused, you understand exactly.  Instead of having a social obligation of tipping, just build that 15-20% into the actual price.  Everything will increase 15-20%.  It's not the total price (which should end up the same either way), it's the entire practice of tipping.  Tipping should be for excellent service above and beyond what the job entails.  My boss does not bid jobs 15-20% low, and decrease my pay with the expectation that our clients will subsidize my wages through tips - he pays a fair wage and builds that into the cost of his services.  That's exactly what restaurants should also do.

There are probably a few ways that could make that change in the restaurant business, but the one that sticks out to me is simply customers not tipping. Yes, it temporarily hurts the server's wages, and it does place a financial burden on the servers. The servers would have to quit waiting tables to find better paying jobs, and guess what? Now there's a huge demand for waiters and waitresses. Businesses need waiters and waitresses to keep their business going, so what do they do? They increase their wages paid to waiters and waitresses, but to make that financially feasible for the business, they must increase the price of the meal. And the end result is the customer paying the same price as they were before while creating a huge temporary hardship on the servers and businesses.

I'm personally of the camp that at $10 meal pre-tip is going to cost $11-$12, and the same meal at the same location with the tip rolled into the price is going to cost $11-$12. If you're uncomfortable paying that amount for a meal, then don't eat there. Otherwise the price you pay will be the same whether or not the business include the price for service or not. It's economics, people.

[arebelspy]

I was just making a point, but you only tip 20%, like an animal? 25 is the new 20 in case you haven't heard.

I plan on tipping 100%+ this weekend.

(True story.  We're "regulars" at a local pub for the Sports Games, and so we're bringing our regular server baked goods and leaving a large tip, even though we generally tip 20%+.)

Do whatever you feel like.

But yes, I feel in a tipping society, one ought to tip.  Whether or not that society is stupid (it mostly is) is a different question.

[Milizard]

The main issue is tipping creep.  I'm old enough (barely) to remember when the standard went from 10%-15%.  Then it went from 15% to 18%, but 18% was too hard to figure out, so just bring that up to 20%.  Now people are saying you're a stingy mo-fo if you figure that on the pre-tax total vs. the post-tax total.  WTF???  I wish that I could completely avoid this nonsense, but unfortunately can't.  However, the more people that consent for fear of looking like a cheap-ass, the more this will escalate and the more servers will feel entitled. (And to listen to them and read their comments, they feel very entitled regardless of their effort.)

[Left]

I know I alluded to it in my last post but does anyone ignore the price of the meal and just give a flat amount each time? I mean regardless of the ticket price? Like $2-3 for a meal that takes 30 minutes to eat? $5 if you occupy the table for a hour, more if service is good? Etc? I mean having three tables, that is still 15 per hour that they are making on tips alone, and that's a good salary in my book for waiting on people. Not sure how many tables wait staff monitors though, I pciked three tables out of the air. But why should I, the customer be footing the majority of the salary of the wait staff instead of business owners figuring that into their cost of business? And it isn't a tipping culture thing to me, but business owners trying to pass costs of their staff onto someone else to manage.

[Chuck]

I tip pretax. That is how this is supposed to work.

Similarly, you are only supposed to tip 15% if the service was good. It's not a minimum. Tip creep is lame.

[arebelspy]

I know I alluded to it in my last post but does anyone ignore the price of the meal and just give a flat amount each time? I mean regardless of the ticket price? Like $2-3 for a meal that takes 30 minutes to eat? $5 if you occupy the table for a hour, more if service is good? Etc? I mean having three tables, that is still 15 per hour that they are making on tips alone, and that's a good salary in my book for waiting on people. Not sure how many tables wait staff monitors though, I pciked three tables out of the air. But why should I, the customer be footing the majority of the salary of the wait staff instead of business owners figuring that into their cost of business? And it isn't a tipping culture thing to me, but business owners trying to pass costs of their staff onto someone else to manage.

I don't tip less if my meal is more, but I do tip more if my meal is less (e.g. I might leave a 50 or 100% tip on a very small bill).  So I do a similar flat amount for small amounts, but don't flat amount to make my tip smaller.

[Runge]

...

But I'm not convinced that the way to get rid of it is by not tipping, as suggested in the quote below. ...

Although I do think the way I mentioned could viably work, I'm not convinced it's the best way either. I'm sure they're are many other ways that we as a society could execute such a change that would end up being better for all parties and some that would be just awful. I don't know what those options are.

And since I'm of the mindset that it's expected to be in the server's income, who am I to deny them of their income because I didn't feel like paying a few extra bucks? If it's truly poor service, then the tip would be adjusted accordingly, just as if it was exceptional service. I typically tip 15% rounding up to the nearest half-dollar for average service, and the number I go off of is post tax because I'm lazy and simply look at the number right above the tip line.

But really...if we're being a typical mustiachian, I'd think we're only eating out on special occasions because we're making our own food. And if we're splurging on going to a place that has someone who hands me a list of dishes and I can pick whatever I want knowing it'll be delivered directly to me on a platter all the while my drink (which I can also have whatever you want) is constantly being complimentarily refilled sounds pretty fancy pants to me (as someone mentioned earlier up thread). And best of all, I don't have to do any dishes! Knowing all this and that the person serving my food on a platter expects me to furnish some of their income because their employer doesn't adequately makes me glad to provide them with a few extra bucks for their service. If their employer provided them with a fair wage that reflected the quality and quantity of the server's work, then I wouldn't feel bad about not leaving a tip.

[Guses]

Ok, I think I get it:

Those who tip <20% are cheap disks
Those who tip >=20% are sheeple/snobs

[smilla]

I was a server for 4 years back when 10-15% was the normal tip and my experience (and that of every server I knew in and out of the province where I was living) was that poor servers made a decent per hour wage, average servers like myself made good money and exceptional servers made a killing.  That's including the low or no tips and after tip-outs.

This probably had something to do with:
1.  This was in Canada so servers get minimum wage which is currently around $10 per hour (although now some liquor servers get about $1 less so around $9.00/hr). 
2.  I worked in mid-price chain restaurants and independent bistros so the bills weren't super small.

Anyway, I tip pretax 15 to 20%, more on smaller bills, less if we have wine.  My experience made me much more patient with servers but it did not make me feel that 20% for average service was in any sense an obligation. 

That said, I will be sure to tip 20% whenever I am in the States.

Also for those servers who wish all the low or no tippers would just stay home, you do realize that if they all did, some servers (and restaurants) would be out of a job entirely.

[Cassie]

I tip a lot bigger if it is a small bill because I am taking up the time & table that the server could be making a bigger tip on.  The last  time we went to San Fran we had a different experience. We never use the bellhop to carry our luggage-we do it ourselves.  Well all motels/hotels are in general expensive there but I managed to snag a really expensive hotel for the same price I would have paid for a much more mediocre one.  Well you had to use the bellhop-they would not let you carry up your own luggage or park your own car.  We really were taken by surprise & of course you had to tip on this.  Because it was very walkable we did not need our car much.