Bizarre restaurant tipping incident

[Villanelle]

I just double the tax (8.25% is tax in my area). Round up to the nearest dollar. That's the tip I leave.

This is what I do, though if the change ends in $.50 or more, I add another dollar.  So on $8.10 in tax I would tip $17, but on $8.30 I would tip $18.  That is assuming competent but not unusually great service. 

One of my favorite things about living in Japan was never have to think for a moment about tipping, even with bellmen, hairdressers, and anything else.

Europe isn't quite as easy, but the tips are  token afterthought. 

[Cpa Cat]

I tip post tax. But now that I think of it, I know plenty of people who just double the tax and I've never thought they were cheap or weird.

And actually, the whole post tax vs pre tax is silly. Take Oregon - it has no sales tax, but a whopping 9% income tax rate. So they get tipped less and taxed more?

It's inane to make the customer the arbiter of a fair wage via a murky tipping process.

[Spork]

On another note, I find these tipping threads to be quite entertaining.  I also find American tipping culture to be quite a curiosity and I think that it's paving the way for a fast casual dining establishments which provide similar quality food for cheaper and don't require the patron to tip.

I see the opposite happening.  I see lots of fast casual dining establishments that have tip jars at the register.  In other words: providing no service and expecting a tip.

Anybody can put a jar anywhere. Don't tell me now it's bad also to ignore tip jars? Next time someone will say "if someone asks you for money you *can't* say no"? When I was in the US in 2004 everybody said "tip 10-15%", then "15% is the minimum, 18-20%", some people now say "20% is the minimum...". Sorry, I can't say "yes" every time someone adds an arbitrary new minimum every 3-4 years. Let's see if in 2017 it will be "what? you don't tip at least 23%?"

At least now: I generally ignore them at fast food type locations.  Maybe I'll drop the coins in from my change.

But: I guess like Sheldon Cooper, I tend to bow to social convention.  If tipping in those locations becomes the norm, I'll probably do it or just avoid them.

Yes, tipping is odd.  Yes, it makes sense to have a simpler payout system.  Yes, I'd rather have a known fixed price with tip/tax added in.  Yes, there is even some evidence that tipping is counter productive.  But when it becomes the norm, it is part of those folks' normal income.  I don't intend to be the one to screw folks over because I don't like the social norm.

[MoneyCat]

People complaining about the increase in customary percentage for tip are forgetting that the already miniscule "minimum wage" servers receive before tips has remained the same for years despite inflation.  So, basically, customers are having to make up the difference for cheap employers.

[nereo]

This is a silly topic.  Sales tax is almost always less than 10 percent.  Let's be generous and call it 10.

A bill is X.  The post-tax amount is 1.1 * X.
A 15% tip based on the pre-tax amount is 0.15 * X.
That same tip (0.15*X) calculated the other way is (0.15*X) / (1.1*X) = 13.6% of the post-tax amount.

You guys are arguing about a difference of 1.4%.  It matters far more what the range of your tipping is, and where you anchor the average. 

Do you even know / care to ask what you friend considers a "normal" tip as compared to you?  That's more relevant.  (15% is most common, but it varies widely from person to person what they actually tip on average and it's often different from what they say)

I tip based on the final (post-tax) amount because that's the amount I care about and the number I look at.  (It's what is deducted from my account.)  And my standard tip for average service is 20%.

Tax rates aren't always under 10%.  It's 15% here in Quebec. To follow your math example, if you have a bill for $100 for a dinner, the pre-tax tip would be $15 and the total would be $130.  To tip post-tax you are now paying a 17.5% tip on service.  It's a 2.5% difference in total tip, but it's an almost 15% increase in your tipping amount. 

To put it in another light, let's say I go to some chain restaurant and order a meal in one state/province.  Then the following money I go to the same restaurant in another state/province.  It makes absoltuely NO SENSE to pay one server more than another simply because of a difference in tax rates.  The server is doing the same job, the restaurant is providing the same food.  The tips should be equal.  If you want to tip more, then tip 20%, 25% or 50% for all I care, but all on pre-tip amounts.

[thepokercab]

Gotta say, its never occurred to me to tip on just the pre-tax portion.  I've always just looked at the total at the bottom, and tipped 15%-20% on that.  If I used a coupon or something, i'll be sure to tip on the pre-coupon amount.  This came up recently when the wife and I won a $20 dollar gift certificate to a restaurant.  The bill ended up at $28 dollars.  I tipped on the full $28 even though the gift certificate knocked it down to $8. 

For me, tipping ends up being the most awkward when I end up at a hotel and someone grabs my bag.  I never have cash on me (and always end up forgetting to have some for these situations) so I end up just giving a sheepish thank you.  Not sure what else I can do.  I would have been happy enough to carry my own bag.   

I also don't understand tipping at coffee shops; they'll charge me for the coffee, and then there is a tip line.  No one is going to be cleaning up a table for me, or asking me for a refill.  Admittingly sometimes i'll feel the pressure and put a dollar on that line.  /Shrug.   Probably shouldn't be buying coffee from there anyway.     

[NorCal]

I do it the simple and easy way.  I double the tax and round up or down depending on the quality of service.

No need to overthink it unless there's big coupons or bottles of wine (which we rarely order).

[Gerard]

I get that people are concerned about some kind of creep, and that it's fun to do math, but tipping seems to me to be a really bad place to decide to save a buck or two. Wouldn't it make more sense to eat out less often, and then tip big when you do go out?

[Gin1984]

At restaurants where they automatically include the tip (I've usually seen 18%) for groups of 6-8+ people, I assume they calculate it on the pre-tax total? Anyone know the answer?

I also just tip post-tax since the difference is generally inconsequential. I might make an exception if it was a really large bill with a non-trivial tax.

Depends on the restaurant.  When I work in restaurants in California they all did it post tax, the one restaurant I worked at in NY, it was on the pre-tax bill.

[Gin1984]

People complaining about the increase in customary percentage for tip are forgetting that the already miniscule "minimum wage" servers receive before tips has remained the same for years despite inflation.  So, basically, customers are having to make up the difference for cheap employers.

That isn't actually true. The most recent change to the federal minimum wage was in 2009, and inflation has been mostly negligible since then. (The CPI is largely bullshit as it includes stuff that smart people don't spend money on.) Many states have raised their minimum wage since then.

There's also the fact that minimum wage is not intended to be enough to support your lifestyle. Some jobs are not supposed to provide a living wage. If you want to make more money, you shouldn't be working as a server. See also http://www.joshuakennon.com/second-time-year-added-shares-mcdonalds-krip/

As for people saying that federal law is ignored, that seems like complainypants to me. The USA is a nation of laws. Everything in this country is premised on the rule of law. You shouldn't be afraid to stand up for yourself and make use of the court system. If you're not going to, that's your own fault.

Spoken as someone who never has had to use the court system and/or someone who has enough money to do so.  If your only income is serving, and you can't find another making the money you need to live, you are not going to ruin your entire future income by suing.  And that assumes you can afford to, which most can't.  Most often in restaurants the ones suing are those who quit once they are finished with school and don't need the money/job. Not everyone can say that.

[paddedhat]

As for people saying that federal law is ignored, that seems like complainypants to me. The USA is a nation of laws. Everything in this country is premised on the rule of law. You shouldn't be afraid to stand up for yourself and make use of the court system. If you're not going to, that's your own fault.

Well you probably believe in Santa too, don't you?  Lets just imagine that you are working a low paying, service sector waitstaff job, and are hired at will. You are far from a star performer when compared to the rest of the waitstaff, and now your whiny little ass is crying that your pay needs to be supplemented since you aren't making the federal minimum. Now, do you REALLY think that your manager is going to look you in the eye and say, "tough shit, I don't care about federal labor laws, supplement this", as he grabs his crotch?  No, he is going to get tired of your whiny ass, and tell you that your being let go as things are a little slow at the moment, and there is not enough work to keep you on. Or, your going to look at next week's schedule and find that you have gone from 40hrs to 15, and that's just the way it is.  I have had up to sixty highly paid construction workers on my payroll at some points in my career, and believe me, you never get shown the door, or encouraged to hit the road in any manner that leaves the employer vulnerable to any bullshit you think you are going to be stirring up with the Feds, the state, EEOC, unemployment compensation departments, or your union. Simply put, the person writing your check is usually not that dumb, or poorly trained, to hand you a clean case to go marching off to battle with. Given that some people make a career out of harassment, discrimination and/or worker's comp. claims, there were outfits that I managed projects for, that wouldn't let you make any employee related decisions, no matter how seemingly insignificant, without a conversation with the company owners. This topic is a minefield and most competent management plays it as a chess game that they rarely lose.

[lizzie]

I get that people are concerned about some kind of creep, and that it's fun to do math, but tipping seems to me to be a really bad place to decide to save a buck or two. Wouldn't it make more sense to eat out less often, and then tip big when you do go out?

Well said.

[Noodle]

The more I learn about restaurant work, the more I agree with Gerard and Lizzie. I will be the person cancelling cable and not fixing my car stereo to save money, but it usually isn't more than a few dollars for me between tipping at the minimum and generously, percentage-wise. While I too would prefer to just have a service charge (or build the cost of the service into the food prices), while we're stuck with this system, being generous with people who are working hard, at a job I don't want, seems like a decent place to put my money.

[Prepube]

I get that people are concerned about some kind of creep, and that it's fun to do math, but tipping seems to me to be a really bad place to decide to save a buck or two. Wouldn't it make more sense to eat out less often, and then tip big when you do go out?

Well said.

Yes, well said, BUT, ya'll seem to have forgotten that you are adding the gratuity for good service and good food.  Fuck the percentages and tip an amount that is appropriate for the service and setting.  I tipped a guy at McDonalds the other day (1.00) for dealing with a special order, and I didn't tip a valet recently because he was a dick.  Tipping should not be based on what you believe the underlying wage is.  These are service industries and you should tip well for great service, and you should not tip at all for shitty service.

[lizzie]

I get that people are concerned about some kind of creep, and that it's fun to do math, but tipping seems to me to be a really bad place to decide to save a buck or two. Wouldn't it make more sense to eat out less often, and then tip big when you do go out?

Well said.

Yes, well said, BUT, ya'll seem to have forgotten that you are adding the gratuity for good service and good food.  Fuck the percentages and tip an amount that is appropriate for the service and setting.  I tipped a guy at McDonalds the other day (1.00) for dealing with a special order, and I didn't tip a valet recently because he was a dick.  Tipping should not be based on what you believe the underlying wage is.  These are service industries and you should tip well for great service, and you should not tip at all for shitty service.

I've never had service so shitty that I wouldn't leave a tip. I've had bad service, yes, but it was evident to me that it was because the server was overwhelmed or something else was going on and it wasn't because the server was intentionally being rude or something. In those circumstances I just feel sorry for the person. Ok, maybe they're not particularly good at the job-it's not for everyone-or maybe they're just having an off day. You can feel free not to leave a tip under those circumstances, but, well, it's surprising to me that anyone would claim that it's somehow wrong that I would want to tip anyway.

I said this in another thread, but I've been very fortunate in life and I feel like tipping well is one small way that I can show gratitude for that.  I was once that server working for tips. Now I'm in a position to make that person's day a little nicer and I enjoy doing it-especially because I remember well what it was like to deal with people who enjoyed treating servers poorly just because they could.

[NumberJohnny5]

I've never had service so shitty that I wouldn't leave a tip. I've had bad service, yes, but it was evident to me that it was because the server was overwhelmed or something else was going on and it wasn't because the server was intentionally being rude or something. In those circumstances I just feel sorry for the person. Ok, maybe they're not particularly good at the job-it's not for everyone-or maybe they're just having an off day. You can feel free not to leave a tip under those circumstances, but, well, it's surprising to me that anyone would claim that it's somehow wrong that I would want to tip anyway.

We've had really bad service. And ya know, it's not bad service itself that gets me riled up. It's bad service in relation to those around us.

Often we'll see someone sit down at a table after we do, but they'll be served before us. Their orders are taken first. Their glasses never go empty. They've finished dessert and we're still waiting to order ours. We take less time to order (so you can't blame indecisiveness), and are often twiddling our thumbs waiting for the waiter (so you can't use the "Didn't want to interrupt your lively conversation" excuse).

"Hey #J5, maybe it was just a once-off thing, maybe the food you ordered was really complicated and..."

Nah, seen this happen at buffet restaurants (where the only job the waitress had was to refill the drinks and possibly clear dirty dishes and bring clean ones), and cruise ships with set dining (same restaurant, same time, same wait staff; bad service on day one would be repeated on day two, and day three, by day four we've asked to be moved). My wife explains that we look like bad tippers. Either we were young and poor, or a family with young kids. She used to be a waitress, so she's certainly sympathetic to the cause...but still believes there's no excuse for bad service just because you "might" not tip well. Once you've proven you're a bad tipper...all bets are off.

She also taught me to leave a very small tip for (extremely) bad service instead of no tip. It's certainly possible to "forget" to leave a tip. Leaving a quarter is 100% intentional.

[lizzie]

Often we'll see someone sit down at a table after we do, but they'll be served before us. Their orders are taken first. Their glasses never go empty. They've finished dessert and we're still waiting to order ours. We take less time to order (so you can't blame indecisiveness), and are often twiddling our thumbs waiting for the waiter (so you can't use the "Didn't want to interrupt your lively conversation" excuse.

See, I don't mind this at all. These days when I'm at a restaurant, it's usually with friends whom I don't see that often and I'm happy to have a leisurely meal with lots of time to chat and no guilt about occupying a table too long. Also-and this is another legacy of my days as a server-even if there's some kind of problem, I have this weird feeling of peaceful relief because I don't have to fix it. Everything could be going to hell and I can still just sit back and relax because I'm the customer, not the worker. It feels incredibly luxurious to me.

ETA: Just to make the point of my previous post a bit clearer: I'm not claiming that you must tip even if you are very unhappy with the service you received. I was just reacting to the idea that it is wrong to decide to tip even when the service was poor.

[NumberJohnny5]

See, I don't mind this at all. These days when I'm at a restaurant, it's usually with friends whom I don't see that often and I'm happy to have a leisurely meal with lots of time to chat and no guilt about occupying a table too long.

I get that. But I was talking specifically about the times where it's just my wife and I, who have absolutely nothing in common and prefer to spend our time chewing instead of making idle chit-chat.

I kid, I kid, but still. I'm not talking "loud rowdy bunch that's obviously having a great time." I'm talking "few quiet people that want to get their food, eat, then leave." If there are kids involved, that's even MORE reason to make it snappy. Stretching a 30 minute meal into an hour is really pushing it. Taking over two hours...someone's going to be leaving early and missing dessert, and that someone's usually me.

[lizzie]

See, I don't mind this at all. These days when I'm at a restaurant, it's usually with friends whom I don't see that often and I'm happy to have a leisurely meal with lots of time to chat and no guilt about occupying a table too long.

I get that. But I was talking specifically about the times where it's just my wife and I, who have absolutely nothing in common and prefer to spend our time chewing instead of making idle chit-chat.

I kid, I kid, but still. I'm not talking "loud rowdy bunch that's obviously having a great time." I'm talking "few quiet people that want to get their food, eat, then leave." If there are kids involved, that's even MORE reason to make it snappy. Stretching a 30 minute meal into an hour is really pushing it. Taking over two hours...someone's going to be leaving early and missing dessert, and that someone's usually me.

Yes, I understand the difference. We tended to avoid eating out much with the kids when they were little; for vacations we always tried to rent a house or apartment with a kitchen. Now that they're teenagers, though, eating out occasionally is a nice way to spend time with them. Everybody gets exactly what they want to eat and the kids aren't focused on escaping before getting tasked with the dishes :-) Off topic I know, but I do understand where you're coming from. I guess bad service is just one of those things in life that don't bother me that much. YMMV.

[NumberJohnny5]

I guess bad service is just one of those things in life that don't bother me that much. YMMV.

I can excuse bad service. It's when everyone around us (with the same wait staff) gets good service, and we get poor service. It's deliberate, and it makes me upset.

I do think I'm mellowing out a bit the older I get. Perhaps some day I'll be some old rich white dude who doesn't get upset when he gets worse service than those around him (though to be honest, that's kinda the demographic that gets better service than I currently do).

[arebelspy]

I just double the tax (8.25% is tax in my area). Round up to the nearest dollar. That's the tip I leave.

This is also what I do.  Easy to calculate.  I actually got this idea from an episode of Friends.

You're supposed to double the tax, not double the tax of Romania.

I always tip 20%.  More if it's a small bill (typically 50%, sometimes more, if it's just a few bucks).

And for those claiming if the people aren't tipped at least enough to make minimum wage so the restaurant has to up it to make up the difference then besides the fact that you're saying their service is only worth minimum wage at best, the fact of the matter is, that's a good way to get laid off (or get the worst time slots, etc.) - to demand your employer make that up.  In reality, it doesn't happen.  They rely on those wages.

[larmando]

People complaining about the increase in customary percentage for tip are forgetting that the already miniscule "minimum wage" servers receive before tips has remained the same for years despite inflation.  So, basically, customers are having to make up the difference for cheap employers.

There will always be a different excuse. Anyway I only go to the US for business, and restaurant price + tip is paid by my company, so I have no personal reason to care. Still, this excuse doesn't account why I shouldn't tip a fixed price (in theory). My server does the same job whether I eat just an appetizer or an expensive dish, if the restaurant is cheap the server makes already less money, and of course expensive restaurants have a more well to do clientele, who shows off more on high tips, while cheap places have students and other poorly paid people who can't afford to tip so much.

Now since I know "fixed price" is not the custom I just pay higher percentages at cheaper places (25 or 30%, why not, it's a few dollars more or less) and lower (down to 15% on pre-tax) at more expensive places. All in all I'm still paying the servers at more expensive places more dollars, for the same job, so I can't be starving/mistreating them. Can someone tell me why is this wrong?

(Of course this is the "business trip dinner" case where I am by myself, order only one plate, stay very short, and leave. If I have a more complicated order, or when I'm with another person or a group of people, and we stay long, have many refills, etc, then I adjust for those factors too)

[larmando]

Yes, I understand the difference. We tended to avoid eating out much with the kids when they were little; for vacations we always tried to rent a house or apartment with a kitchen. Now that they're teenagers, though, eating out occasionally is a nice way to spend time with them. Everybody gets exactly what they want to eat and the kids aren't focused on escaping before getting tasked with the dishes :-) Off topic I know, but I do understand where you're coming from. I guess bad service is just one of those things in life that don't bother me that much. YMMV.

Escaping? When I was a kid there was no standing up before everybody was finished (with exceptions granted in case they were strictly needed) and there was no way to get out of both setting up and cleaning up the table. Trying never ever brought up anything good. The only thing we could get away with was cleaning up "too fast" and taking away dad's glass of wine before he was done with it (of course without throwing it away). For that we "just" got some shouting, but as a joke.

[lizzie]

Now that they're teenagers, though, eating out occasionally is a nice way to spend time with them. Everybody gets exactly what they want to eat and the kids aren't focused on escaping before getting tasked with the dishes :-)

Escaping? When I was a kid there was no standing up before everybody was finished (with exceptions granted in case they were strictly needed) and there was no way to get out of both setting up and cleaning up the table.

Yeah, I figured when I wrote that that someone would probably interpret it to mean I'm a pushover. It was a joke, hence the smiley.

[RetiredAt63]

Yes, tipping was easy when I lived in Quebec - just tip the same as the tax  ;-)

In Ontario HST is 13%, so I pay tax amount rounded up a bit.

And looking at this thread, isn't it amazing how little sales tax Americans spend?

Tax rates aren't always under 10%.  It's 15% here in Quebec. To follow your math example, if you have a bill for $100 for a dinner, the pre-tax tip would be $15 and the total would be $130.  To tip post-tax you are now paying a 17.5% tip on service.  It's a 2.5% difference in total tip, but it's an almost 15% increase in your tipping amount. 

To put it in another light, let's say I go to some chain restaurant and order a meal in one state/province.  Then the following money I go to the same restaurant in another state/province.  It makes absoltuely NO SENSE to pay one server more than another simply because of a difference in tax rates.  The server is doing the same job, the restaurant is providing the same food.  The tips should be equal.  If you want to tip more, then tip 20%, 25% or 50% for all I care, but all on pre-tip amounts.

[Cpa Cat]

And looking at this thread, isn't it amazing how little sales tax Americans spend?

It's because there's no federal sales tax. All sales taxes in the USA are state/local.

[Johnez]

I tip to the closest dollar, rounded up always. I never have this problem, but if you do and were doing this as a special occasion, why make such a big deal of it? At most it's a few bucks-one time. The line between cheap and frugal lies here IMO. Now if this is a recurring problem I encourage anyone with it to click the banner top of this forum and start reading from the first post. This is MMM!

[DCJrMustachian]

I've gotten so sick of the American tipping system that with few date-night exceptions I only will eat out at cafe-style or fast-casual restaurants.  However if I do eat out I leave tips between 15-20%

[OutBy40]

I usually tip on the post-tax amount, though not because I think that it's "cheating" the waiter or waitress if I don't.  To me, that's a pretty stupid position. 

[RetiredAt63]

Seriously? Wow?  And low federal income taxes.  Where does your federal government get its money?

And looking at this thread, isn't it amazing how little sales tax Americans spend?

It's because there's no federal sales tax. All sales taxes in the USA are state/local.

[Unkempt Stash]

We need a tax increase. Nobody will get elected on that platform though :)

[Milizard]

Eery article that I've read about how much to tip says it's on the pre-tax total, though you would add back any coupons used.  I usually forget and just tip on the grand total.

[Gin1984]

Seriously? Wow?  And low federal income taxes.  Where does your federal government get its money?

And looking at this thread, isn't it amazing how little sales tax Americans spend?

It's because there's no federal sales tax. All sales taxes in the USA are state/local.

Good question, and the answer is, we are is debt up to our eyeballs.

[nereo]

Seriously? Wow?  And low federal income taxes.  Where does your federal government get its money?

And looking at this thread, isn't it amazing how little sales tax Americans spend?

It's because there's no federal sales tax. All sales taxes in the USA are state/local.

Good question, and the answer is, we are is debt up to our eyeballs.

what's weird is that countries like Canada have a higher public-debt to GDP ratio despite the federal sales tax. By many metrics the US's debt is equivalent to many developed countries. Living in Canada, I've become more worried about debt on this side of the border.  Is it at a level where it will all implode on us? (shrug).

[Joggernot]

I always tip 20% on the post tax amount, unless the service was bad. But breakfast waitresses...I always over tip. My breakfast is usually under $5, and I know they are just barely eeking out a living. I also don't eat out much.

+1
Breakfast is cheap, but you get the same or better service as at lunch or dinner.  So they get a $5 tip no matter the total.

[Roland of Gilead]

Seriously? Wow?  And low federal income taxes.  Where does your federal government get its money?

We have one of the world's highest corporate tax rates, so that is one way the government gets its money.  Yes there are a lot of corps like Apple who skirt the system but some pay.

[wtjbatman]

Damn, son, if you are going to stress over something this trivial, you should probably just stay in your room and slurp down a 15 cent Ramen or, if you feel like splurging, go wild and hit the dollar menu at McDonalds.

The OP would, but they are actually boycotting McDonalds since the price of the McDouble was raised to $1.19

[Left]

random tipping question, but if you tip strictly on the quality of the service and not the price of the meal, does it matter if you are ordering off the $1 menu at McDonalds vs a fancy joint? If the McDonalds worker comes by and offers to refill drinks/clean trash for you, and the waiter does the same, shouldn't you tip both the same? But I don't see people tipping the McDonald's worker? Sure the food isn't the same, but the wait staff can't control the kitchen quality. Or do you argue that McDonald's aren't "wait" staff and are paid more than the service industry's minimum wage of $5 I think instead of $8?

[Spork]

random tipping question, but if you tip strictly on the quality of the service and not the price of the meal, does it matter if you are ordering off the $1 menu at McDonalds vs a fancy joint? If the McDonalds worker comes by and offers to refill drinks/clean trash for you, and the waiter does the same, shouldn't you tip both the same? But I don't see people tipping the McDonald's worker? Sure the food isn't the same, but the wait staff can't control the kitchen quality. Or do you argue that McDonald's aren't "wait" staff and are paid more than the service industry's minimum wage of $5 I think instead of $8?

All the tipping jive seems to be based on social norms, not how good the job is -- which puts the poor MickyDs worker as SOL.   But I think your question has a valid point.

Instead of McDonalds, apply the same question with a low end sit down place vs a high end.

You're at Chilis.  You spend $15.  The waiter is awesome.  20% is $3.
You're at BoyamIFancy Steakhouse.  You spend $60.  The waiter is just so-so.  15% is $9.

The Chili's waiter clearly bends over backwards for you but gets paid 1/3 of the mediocre steakhouse waiter.

[slugline]

The very premise of this discussion is bizarre. Admittedly, it's been a long time since I've been employed in a position that got tips, but I'm pretty certain I never thought once whether a customer was tipping pre-tax or post-tax. I just saw the dollars and cents.

[CommonCents]

I believe you need only tip 18% at pre-tax bill.
I tend to do lazy math, and tip 20% of post-tax bill.
I also round so it often get somewhere in the middle.

at the end of the day, the difference is small.
Imagine a $50 bill plus 6.25% tax.  That's $9-$10.63 by those above methods.

ETA: In a group, I'm more generous because I figure 1) groups are more work and 2) others in the group may not hold to the same tipping standards as I do.  I've been pleasantly surprised that the last ~5 years or so as a group, we've well overtipped (e.g. 30%, where you are trying to get people to take a few dollars back).  I'd never argue over something like this in a group.

[Dalmuti]

Speaking as someone from a non-tipping culture, I find the american tipping system to be perplexing. Why are customers expected to determine the salaries of service employees and not the employers? To me, it makes sense to have people do their jobs with a fixed salary regardless of whether they get stingy or generous customers. Another thing that confuses me is trying to figure out who to tip. Why do we tip certain jobs in the service industry, eg. waiters, hotel housekeeping, taxis, hairdressers, but not other jobs, e.g. retail store assistants, mechanics, tutors, babysitters (correct me if i'm wrong and if tips are expected for them). How do you know if you're supposed to tip someone or not?

Since nobody has addressed acorns questions directly, I guess I'll join the discussion even though it's been beat to death.  The way the tipping system is supposed to work (in theory) is that in many (but not all) service jobs, the person most able to evaluate how well a person is doing their job is the person being served.  A good waitress will get good tips and bad waitress will get bad tips, so people will be paid according to how they are doing and potentially the bad one's will go into another field.  The stingy or generous customer thing averages out over time.  You might have 20 stingy customers in a row, but by the time you have waited on 10,000 customers the average stinginess will be about the same as your coworkers and only the level of your service will make a difference.  This average of all customers' input should be a better performance measure than some manager's evaluation.  On your examples of non-tipping jobs, I would argue that in those professions, the customer isn't always the best equipped to tell how you are doing.  A retail store worker's main job is usually to sell stuff, not to serve the customer (at least in the US).  Most of a mechanic's customers are ill-equipped to tell whether the mechanic did a good job or a shoddy one (otherwise they would do the repair themselves).  Tutors and babysitters are usually doing their work while the paying parents aren't observing and whether they did it well or not is often not known until well after the wages are paid.  Also, tutors and babysitters are often freelancers who set their own rates, so the assumption is that if they want $25 an hour instead of $20, they should charge that much.  In situations where they are provided by a separate company, I think tipping is much more common.   

Of course, the "in theory" is the key part of all this.  Most people agree that the system isn't working as listed above in practice, and my wife's experiences waiting tables suggest that is true.  She knew plenty of terrible waiters and waitresses that subsisted on the guilt that causes people to give good tips for bad service.  Spreading tips among hosts, bussers, and bartenders further disconnects tip amounts from the people that earned the high or low amount, so I agree that the system ends up just lowering the price of restaurant food by making the customers pay the staff instead of the owner paying them. 

All being said, I typically tip 20%+ on the post tax amount since I go out to eat rarely and the extra couple % probably means more to the waiter than to me.       

[Bob W]

Don't know about your world, but I look at the bottom line (with tax) and do some quick math as to what 15-20% of the total is. If we are going out as a couple, the difference between my pre and post tax math would work out to $.40 to $.60 for the meal. If I get to the point that need to worry About tossing an extra $.40 at a waitress, I probably shouldn't be going out in the first place.

If your question is, "am I being a dick?" the answer is ........yes

This is the correct answer.

+1 -- It is not over your philosophy of tipping it is over your social skills with your friends fighting over what amounts to pennies.

I have never even thought of tax or pretax?   I look at the total. 

I agree with others that tipping is weird but reality is that it is how waiters live.  I would be easier to just include it in the bill,  which many restaurants do for large parties.  I guess it only takes one party of 8 failing to tip before that policy is put into place?

[Gin1984]

random tipping question, but if you tip strictly on the quality of the service and not the price of the meal, does it matter if you are ordering off the $1 menu at McDonalds vs a fancy joint? If the McDonalds worker comes by and offers to refill drinks/clean trash for you, and the waiter does the same, shouldn't you tip both the same? But I don't see people tipping the McDonald's worker? Sure the food isn't the same, but the wait staff can't control the kitchen quality. Or do you argue that McDonald's aren't "wait" staff and are paid more than the service industry's minimum wage of $5 I think instead of $8?

All the tipping jive seems to be based on social norms, not how good the job is -- which puts the poor MickyDs worker as SOL.   But I think your question has a valid point.

Instead of McDonalds, apply the same question with a low end sit down place vs a high end.

You're at Chilis.  You spend $15.  The waiter is awesome.  20% is $3.
You're at BoyamIFancy Steakhouse.  You spend $60.  The waiter is just so-so.  15% is $9.

The Chili's waiter clearly bends over backwards for you but gets paid 1/3 of the mediocre steakhouse waiter.

I've worked at lower end restaurants and high ones.  You are expected to know more and do more for each individual table at the higher end restaurants.  Hell, one of the restaurants I worked at trained me longer than the suicide prevention hotline I volunteered at. 
If the chili's waiter was truly awesome, over time he or she will move up high restaurants just like anyone other job where you move to the higher paid positions as you get better.

[projekt]

I used to tip pre-tax, but then I figured that in states without sales tax, the servers don't have to pay sales tax on their spending. In states with sales tax, they should probably make a little more.

[Lia-Aimee]

I usually tip post-tax on my desire to avoid doing mental math.  I have no problem giving 20% for decent service since I don't go out all that much, but I do enjoy generously tipping the people who usually don't get big tips: cheap diner waitress, mall gift wrapper, barista etc. 

[Runge]

Congrats! You're a boorish jerk. Fuck off and die!

Wow...that's pretty rude. Maybe it was meant in humor, but hopefully the irony in your statement is noticed.

[Lia-Aimee]

I fail to see how poor tipping habits and pennypinching are deserving of death.

[Sibley]

I hate doing mental math, so just double the tax and round up. That gets me around 15-20% tip. I only tip at restaurants though. All this crap about tipping the mailman, etc - no. You're outta luck, and if you don't like it find a better paying job.

[GuitarStv]

You're outta luck, and if you don't like it find a better paying job.

Imagine how awesome the world would be if everyone said this about all tipping, across the board?

Do your job . . . get paid your wages.  Don't like your wages?  Find another job.  No more institutionalized pan-handling in restaurants, taxi cabs, and hair salons.