Author Topic: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident  (Read 77257 times)

NumberJohnny5

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 780
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #150 on: December 19, 2014, 05:02:48 PM »
Who else do you guys tip?

Mail men?

Garbage men?

Hair dresser?

Maid?

Teachers?

Dog groomers?

I don't tip any of these, and i've had discussions with other people and been accused of being cheap for not tipping them.  I wonder where everyone else falls on this issue.

That's one of the reasons I love (currently) living in a tip-free country. I don't have to worry if I'm supposed to be tipping the person who's paid to ring up my order, the cook who's paid to cook my food, the mailman who's paid to deliver my mail (unless it's a package and just soooo much easier to leave a "Sorry we didn't bother knocking!" card), the taxi driver who's paid to, um, taxi me, etc. I mean seriously, if the guy never leaves the car and I handle all my luggage, wtf am I supposed to be tipping for? "Thanks for not driving over that cliff back there, here's an extra $5."

Yeah, the listed price for a Pizza Hut buffet is higher here. But I don't have to add nearly 10% for tax (I'm originally from a high sales-tax state), or 15-is-it-18-oh-heck-make-it-20 percent tip (is that pre-tax or post-tax). BTW, why the heck am still tipping 15-20% if I'm getting all my own food AND all my own refills? Just give me a place to take my dirty dishes and the wait staff does as much as at McDonald's (coincidentally, at a chinese buffet I finally found in Australia, that's exactly what the customers do).

In tipping cultures, tipping tends to get MORE out of hand, not less. I've never heard of LESS people asking for tips, or a waiter saying "The higher cost of the meal means my wage is already adjusted for inflation, 10% is more than adequate." Nope, it's "Hey, I provide a valuable service, where's MY tip??!!" and "Hey, the cost of stuff has gone up, so I need a higher tip percentage you cheap bastards!"

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9922
  • Registered member
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #151 on: December 22, 2014, 10:35:15 AM »

Also, not that I'm saying this is a definitive authority, but it's probably more authoritative (as to the custom) than BlueMR2:  http://www.emilypost.com/out-and-about/tipping/89-general-tipping-guidelines


How did this thread continue for three pages after this correct answer was posted on page 1???

This thread is dumb, but not for the reason everyone thinks.  People who tip post-tax aren't doing anything wrong -- they are just being more generous than customary.  If your friend tips 15% post-tax, that's no different from tipping 17% pre-tax (depending on your tax rate).  Would you really chastise your friend for tipping a couple extra percent?

FWIW, I tip pre-tax, but it's usually 20% for fine service.  So if you want to say I'm "cheap" for tipping only 18% post-tax, fine.

I wouldn't be able to place anything in a tip jar even if i wanted, since I never carry cash.

The insidious thing is the spread of a "tip line" at the bottom of credit card receipts in "inappropriate" circumstances.  Like at counter-service places.  I mean, it's fine to give me a way to tip you on my card, but don't give me a dirty look if I write a big fat zero (which is an extra level of work for me to prevent fraud).

People complaining about the increase in customary percentage for tip are forgetting that the already miniscule "minimum wage" servers receive before tips has remained the same for years despite inflation.  So, basically, customers are having to make up the difference for cheap employers.

LOLwut?  Presumably the cost of food has increased due to "inflation?"  Thus a percentage-based tip would also increase the same amount.  Automatic COLA.


Spoken as someone who never has had to use the court system and/or someone who has enough money to do so.  If your only income is serving, and you can't find another making the money you need to live, you are not going to ruin your entire future income by suing.  And that assumes you can afford to, which most can't.  Most often in restaurants the ones suing are those who quit once they are finished with school and don't need the money/job. Not everyone can say that.

If you truly believe that there is endemic violation of Federal laws at restaurants, then the answer is not to tip heavily.  The answer is to boycott those restaurants.

Irritates me when people are that pedantic that they work out tips to the cent.

What the heck is this board? The Mr. MoneyPaymore board where societal expectation is how our money should be spent?! Why would you pay more... just cause? Do you also Paymore at walmart because who looks at cents on the receipt anyway?


Love it!

Wow, now I know why this went on for 3 pages after the correct answer was posted ;)
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 10:36:57 AM by dragoncar »

CommonCents

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2363
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #152 on: December 22, 2014, 11:04:41 AM »
Yes you should tip the maids for every night you spend in a motel/hotel.  I don't know a soul that does not do this.

Really?  No one?  Or maybe just no one that tells you.
I don't tip maids in the US.  I sometimes tip maids in other (non-European & lower income) countries, but it depends if I have local currency at the end of the trip and if I remember.

I tip 15-20% depending on service, but never on tax or a bottle of anything served with the meal.

I can never wrap my head around why someone would tip on food but not wine. The server doesn't make the wine, but the server doesn't make the food either. Also, at the fancy-pants place, I would spent much more time studying wine than I would studying the menu. And serving wine takes longer than serving food (because it requires a presentation, and often decanting), and it also requires that the server babysit a table throughout the meal to continually pour.

But the wine issue isn't that important for most of us here, since only a sucka would buy wine at a restaurant.

I tend to tip less on wine.  It's not nothing, but I see nothing wrong with tipping on the wine at 15% instead of 20% (or maybe even 10% though never less), particularly if the server isn't helpful/knowledgeable about the wines.  I might calculate the normal 18-20% then take something off of it so my guess is I would even up tipping overall somewhere around 15-18%.
1. The markup on wine is huge.  I don't see why I would pay them a big percent on an already big markup.
2. I disagree about the extra work.  Beyond the brief presentation, there is no extra work for the server between that and running to the back refilling my coke or water a few times.  Less in fact sometimes, as after the first pour, I prefer to pour the wine bottle myself when I can, so I have it refilled when I want it.  (And more so when a table is sharing a bottle.  My husband drinks much faster than me, and they'll keep refilling his and he'd have 4 of the 5 glasses in the bottle, unless he waits to refill till I'm ready, or holds off at the end.)  Most waiters don't babysit the wine, and I've never gone to a place that decants it.  If you have a $35 bottle of wine versus a $2.50 coke, that's $7 tip versus 50 cents, which is insane before you even consider a $50 or $100 bottle of wine.  I'm not going to stiff them - but I don't need to pay out the wazoo for it either.
3. I've heard that this is common practice.  I just looked into it now, and it seems it's a pretty grey area, and hinges on your relationship with the restaurant, how much the wine was in relation to the overall bill and if it was more than one bottle of wine.  Apparently restaurants wouldn't be at all surprised by a 15% overall tip instead of 20% though on expensive wine bottles.  http://dinersjournal.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/01/the-answer-man-tipping-on-wine/?_r=0

But I don't order wine out often.  It's just too expensive out to have it be worthwhile.  It's usually when other people are out with us or its a special occasion.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4929
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #153 on: December 22, 2014, 07:01:45 PM »
Yes you should tip the maids for every night you spend in a motel/hotel.  I don't know a soul that does not do this.

Really?  No one?  Or maybe just no one that tells you.
I don't tip maids in the US.  I sometimes tip maids in other (non-European & lower income) countries, but it depends if I have local currency at the end of the trip and if I remember.

I tip 15-20% depending on service, but never on tax or a bottle of anything served with the meal.

I can never wrap my head around why someone would tip on food but not wine. The server doesn't make the wine, but the server doesn't make the food either. Also, at the fancy-pants place, I would spent much more time studying wine than I would studying the menu. And serving wine takes longer than serving food (because it requires a presentation, and often decanting), and it also requires that the server babysit a table throughout the meal to continually pour.

But the wine issue isn't that important for most of us here, since only a sucka would buy wine at a restaurant.

I tend to tip less on wine.  It's not nothing, but I see nothing wrong with tipping on the wine at 15% instead of 20% (or maybe even 10% though never less), particularly if the server isn't helpful/knowledgeable about the wines.  I might calculate the normal 18-20% then take something off of it so my guess is I would even up tipping overall somewhere around 15-18%.
1. The markup on wine is huge.  I don't see why I would pay them a big percent on an already big markup.
2. I disagree about the extra work.  Beyond the brief presentation, there is no extra work for the server between that and running to the back refilling my coke or water a few times.  Less in fact sometimes, as after the first pour, I prefer to pour the wine bottle myself when I can, so I have it refilled when I want it.  (And more so when a table is sharing a bottle.  My husband drinks much faster than me, and they'll keep refilling his and he'd have 4 of the 5 glasses in the bottle, unless he waits to refill till I'm ready, or holds off at the end.)  Most waiters don't babysit the wine, and I've never gone to a place that decants it.  If you have a $35 bottle of wine versus a $2.50 coke, that's $7 tip versus 50 cents, which is insane before you even consider a $50 or $100 bottle of wine.  I'm not going to stiff them - but I don't need to pay out the wazoo for it either.
3. I've heard that this is common practice.  I just looked into it now, and it seems it's a pretty grey area, and hinges on your relationship with the restaurant, how much the wine was in relation to the overall bill and if it was more than one bottle of wine.  Apparently restaurants wouldn't be at all surprised by a 15% overall tip instead of 20% though on expensive wine bottles.  http://dinersjournal.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/01/the-answer-man-tipping-on-wine/?_r=0

But I don't order wine out often.  It's just too expensive out to have it be worthwhile.  It's usually when other people are out with us or its a special occasion.
I found that interesting because at every place I worked at, I tipped out the bar based on bar sales so cutting that may meaning cutting the server almost out (my last place tipped out 10% of bar sales) and none were accepting of lower tips (and they do judge the server by tip percentage).

loftygoal

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • Location: Portland, OR
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #154 on: December 22, 2014, 07:46:42 PM »
I tip on the total, which has no tax. Move to a state with no sales tax!

I generally calculate 20% tip, and round down to the nearest whole number, so it ends up being around 18%.

minority_finance_mo

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 784
    • Minority Finance
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #155 on: December 22, 2014, 08:13:42 PM »
!@#$%^&*, son, if you are going to stress over something this trivial, you should probably just stay in your room and slurp down a 15 cent Ramen or, if you feel like splurging, go wild and hit the dollar menu at McDonalds.

The OP would, but they are actually boycotting McDonalds since the price of the McDouble was raised to $1.19

Are we really making fun of one person's incredulity at deliberately paying 20% more than what he/she consumed IN A MMM FORUM? I see the irony is lost on many here... I think a facepunch is in order.

minority_finance_mo

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 784
    • Minority Finance
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #156 on: December 22, 2014, 08:19:07 PM »
I used to tip pre-tax, but then I figured that in states without sales tax, the servers don't have to pay sales tax on their spending. In states with sales tax, they should probably make a little more.

I'm sure they have daycare costs too while they work... Mind chipping in for those too, bud?

minority_finance_mo

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 784
    • Minority Finance
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #157 on: December 22, 2014, 08:23:12 PM »
Lol, looks like there are a few people on this site who probably think Mr. Pink was supposed to be a sympathetic character.

I try to provide a good eample as a frugal person - act as an ambassador for financial responsibility and frugality. I do this by quietly riding my bike to work, packing my lunch, using a "dumb" phone, and giving financial advice when asked. Hopefully other folks here try to the same. The greatest way I could undermine that attempt to portray frugality positively is by going to a work lunch and leaving a terrible tip. Even worse would be to then agrue about it. I'd be outing myself as a cheapskate, not frugal.

+1

While I have serious qualms with the American tipping system (especially as someone living in NYC - the over-tipping Mecca), this is an excellent POV to have.

clarkfan1979

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3352
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Pueblo West, CO
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #158 on: December 23, 2014, 08:33:55 AM »
Post-tax. You are not a dick. However, the difference is between pre-tax and post-tax is very small.

When I waited tables in 2001-2005, I always tried to make it to $400 gross sales because that would mean I was taking home $50 in cash. I also earned minimum wage in CA at the time which was $6.75. The restaurant was more family oriented so it wasn't open late. The shifts were short typically 4-5 hours total.

I would typically earn 17% on $400, which is $68. However, I would have to tip out .0375% to the host and bus boy. This would mean that I would take home $53 cash in tips, which was worth it for me. This averages out to be $18.50/hour. 
It was a low stress restaurant. We got busier in the summer with added stress and money, but I didn't mind because I wasn't in school during the summer. When it was busier we typically had a food runner and I would have to tip out another 1%.



 

CommonCents

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2363
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #159 on: December 23, 2014, 10:07:31 AM »
Yes you should tip the maids for every night you spend in a motel/hotel.  I don't know a soul that does not do this.

Really?  No one?  Or maybe just no one that tells you.
I don't tip maids in the US.  I sometimes tip maids in other (non-European & lower income) countries, but it depends if I have local currency at the end of the trip and if I remember.

I tip 15-20% depending on service, but never on tax or a bottle of anything served with the meal.

I can never wrap my head around why someone would tip on food but not wine. The server doesn't make the wine, but the server doesn't make the food either. Also, at the fancy-pants place, I would spent much more time studying wine than I would studying the menu. And serving wine takes longer than serving food (because it requires a presentation, and often decanting), and it also requires that the server babysit a table throughout the meal to continually pour.

But the wine issue isn't that important for most of us here, since only a sucka would buy wine at a restaurant.

I tend to tip less on wine.  It's not nothing, but I see nothing wrong with tipping on the wine at 15% instead of 20% (or maybe even 10% though never less), particularly if the server isn't helpful/knowledgeable about the wines.  I might calculate the normal 18-20% then take something off of it so my guess is I would even up tipping overall somewhere around 15-18%.
1. The markup on wine is huge.  I don't see why I would pay them a big percent on an already big markup.
2. I disagree about the extra work.  Beyond the brief presentation, there is no extra work for the server between that and running to the back refilling my coke or water a few times.  Less in fact sometimes, as after the first pour, I prefer to pour the wine bottle myself when I can, so I have it refilled when I want it.  (And more so when a table is sharing a bottle.  My husband drinks much faster than me, and they'll keep refilling his and he'd have 4 of the 5 glasses in the bottle, unless he waits to refill till I'm ready, or holds off at the end.)  Most waiters don't babysit the wine, and I've never gone to a place that decants it.  If you have a $35 bottle of wine versus a $2.50 coke, that's $7 tip versus 50 cents, which is insane before you even consider a $50 or $100 bottle of wine.  I'm not going to stiff them - but I don't need to pay out the wazoo for it either.
3. I've heard that this is common practice.  I just looked into it now, and it seems it's a pretty grey area, and hinges on your relationship with the restaurant, how much the wine was in relation to the overall bill and if it was more than one bottle of wine.  Apparently restaurants wouldn't be at all surprised by a 15% overall tip instead of 20% though on expensive wine bottles.  http://dinersjournal.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/01/the-answer-man-tipping-on-wine/?_r=0

But I don't order wine out often.  It's just too expensive out to have it be worthwhile.  It's usually when other people are out with us or its a special occasion.
I found that interesting because at every place I worked at, I tipped out the bar based on bar sales so cutting that may meaning cutting the server almost out (my last place tipped out 10% of bar sales) and none were accepting of lower tips (and they do judge the server by tip percentage).

Well, if I'm tipping 15% of the bar cost (wine) and 20% of the food cost, and you tip out the bar 10% on the bar cost, then you are still getting 5% on bar and 20% on food cost.  At $35 bottle of wine example used above, 5% is $1.75...which is still more than the $0.50 you'd get on the soda, almost triple in fact.)

(Really it seems that the restaurants might want to rethink the obligatory 10% tip out on wine, if it turns out that I'm not unusual in sometimes tipping less on it.  The proliferation of articles with questions about if people should/do tip less for wine, suggests that is the case.)

viper155

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 255
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #160 on: December 23, 2014, 10:47:11 AM »
Next time you should ask her why the customer, who has already paid for the product and service, is expected to pay additional amounts for service that was already paid for? Ask her why the customer is the jerk for not paying a tip, but the employer is not a jerk for not paying higher wages?

Tipping is one of the worst customs in our society. And one of the most misunderstood. It's one of those things that no one can talk about because people are uninformed. Waiters make minimum wage in wages + tips or their employer has to make up the difference. You aren't cheating anyone but yourself for being a sucker and wasting money paying for a simple service.

I don't tip at all. Which doesn't cause much problems because I don't to spend money at places that would expect a tip.

you are wrong on so many levels here.

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7946
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #161 on: December 23, 2014, 03:01:43 PM »
I am surprised that some people tip differently on their alcohol. Everyone I know just tips on the total of the check. 

GrossAnatomy

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #162 on: December 23, 2014, 03:18:35 PM »
This topic is off the wall intriguing giving great insight to people's thoughts and perceptions on tipping.  Tipping is not mandatory, but it's expected for services rendered.  When do you tip then?  Tip when you feel gratitude for something done for you.  How much do you tip then? 

I tip 10% when i know my server sucked and has only done 2 things, taken my order and given me my check.  No check ins, no drinks, no body in sight.  No work needed and runners do food delivery.  You suck and don't deserve a big tip and you just trounced your team that has done all the work cuz i just tipped your team less as a whole.  Work harder, no excuses.

I tip 15% when you've taken my order and delivered the food yourself and gotten me the check, i don't expect more, but you're not delivering more either so that's where we call it Even Steven. 

I tip 18% most of the time (80% of the time I go out to eat).  The tax here in my county is 10% (9.75% to be exact).  I double the tax and be done with it.  What do i get for that?  You say "Hi!", take my order, bring me a drink, set down the meal and then the check.  In between you refill a drink and ask if I want some dessert.  You are about as close to what I'd ask every F'n server to do which is not a f*cking whole lot to ask for. 

I tip 20%+ when the server is asking me in-between bringing me my meal and taking orders if the food and everything else is Ok.  A little tug on under the table wouldn't hurt, but if you're excelling and trying hard and making a f*cking effort then I will make an effort to tip you well. 

To everyone else saying 20% post-tax is the minimum and be done with it:  Have fun with that, but don't tell others that it's the norm.  It's not.  We feed mediocrity with 20% mandatory tips and there should be no expectation that others should follow suit.  Tip however you feel the service dictates.  It doesn't dictate 20% minimum, no one should be obligated to pay that.  Those who feel sorry for their server and for what they do are just feeding this cycle. 

Don't make enough as server and you don't like it then move on!  Don't make enough as a bartender and don't like it?  Move on!  I didn't make enough either, but I finished a degree and got paid what I expected and don't have to be a server.  The expectation that a server should make $25-$30/hour is ridiculous.  Some kids who rack up $60k in college tuition don't even make that much coming out of school.  And that's for specialized skills like a scientist or building rockets.  You're serving food.  I'm paying you for that specialized service, not rocket science.  I'd rather tip the cook $20 than you.  He's actually giving me a much better service in preparing my food vs. you bringing it to my table.  Stop the madness people...but continue the conversation. 

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23128
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #163 on: December 23, 2014, 03:46:15 PM »
I actually like the tipping system and here's why.

If tips were not culturally required, the price of the food would just be proportionally higher, but it would be a mandatory part of the bill that you are forced to pay.

With the tipping system, part of the bill is transformed to somewhat optional territory where you can pay less if the service was unsatisfactory, etc.

From the perspective of customers, we should prefer the tipping system.

Nice theory, but it's bullshit.  If you give a low tip the server thinks 'cheap' , not 'I didn't do my job'.  Probably 90% of people leave a tip after receiving shitty service due to social pressures.

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7946
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #164 on: December 23, 2014, 03:50:49 PM »
Most of the time we leave 20% but if the service is shitty we only leave 10. I don't care about the reason the server thinks that happened.

Spork

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5742
    • Spork In The Eye
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #165 on: December 23, 2014, 06:25:54 PM »
I actually like the tipping system and here's why.

If tips were not culturally required, the price of the food would just be proportionally higher, but it would be a mandatory part of the bill that you are forced to pay.

With the tipping system, part of the bill is transformed to somewhat optional territory where you can pay less if the service was unsatisfactory, etc.

From the perspective of customers, we should prefer the tipping system.

Nice theory, but it's bullshit.  If you give a low tip the server thinks 'cheap' , not 'I didn't do my job'.  Probably 90% of people leave a tip after receiving shitty service due to social pressures.

along those lines... I read an article some years ago by a restaurateur that did a social experiment.  He ran 2 restaurants: one as tipping and one as non tipping.  His observations were that the really good servers DID NOT KNOW what they had been tipped.  They were working their asses off all night and (more often than not) most of the tips went on credit card receipts that they didn't see until the end of the night or the next day.  On the contrary: the folks that noticed their high or low tips where the less-than-awesome servers.  [ It was not a scientific study... Just one guy and his observations. ]

MrsCoolCat

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 446
  • Age: 2019
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #166 on: December 23, 2014, 08:13:02 PM »
tip on the pre tax amount

The restaurant's receipts calculate it this way, pre-tax. I feel it really only makes a noticeable difference when the bills are larger...

frugalnacho

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5055
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #167 on: December 24, 2014, 12:14:51 PM »
I actually like the tipping system and here's why.

If tips were not culturally required, the price of the food would just be proportionally higher, but it would be a mandatory part of the bill that you are forced to pay.

With the tipping system, part of the bill is transformed to somewhat optional territory where you can pay less if the service was unsatisfactory, etc.

From the perspective of customers, we should prefer the tipping system.

Most bills are optional.  That's how businesses stay in business, they offer a product or service and you voluntarily choose to pay for it.  If you don't feel it's worth it then you don't purchase that product/service. Some how almost every other industry is able to stay afloat despite not participating in the bullshit tipping system.  From my perspective as a customer I like transparent pricing and knowing exactly what I am getting and exactly what I am paying.

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28444
  • Age: -997
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #168 on: December 24, 2014, 12:22:44 PM »
I actually like the tipping system and here's why.

If tips were not culturally required, the price of the food would just be proportionally higher, but it would be a mandatory part of the bill that you are forced to pay.

With the tipping system, part of the bill is transformed to somewhat optional territory where you can pay less if the service was unsatisfactory, etc.

From the perspective of customers, we should prefer the tipping system.

Most bills are optional.  That's how businesses stay in business, they offer a product or service and you voluntarily choose to pay for it.  If you don't feel it's worth it then you don't purchase that product/service. Some how almost every other industry is able to stay afloat despite not participating in the bullshit tipping system.  From my perspective as a customer I like transparent pricing and knowing exactly what I am getting and exactly what I am paying.

Do you complain when prices don't include tax?  Or do you mentally adjust for the fact that your total amount will be X% higher (depending on your local taxes)?  Why is that different with tipping?

I'm just referring to the mental part of "knowing exactly what [you are] getting, not the which system is better and whatnot part of it - I'm just thinking the practicalities of dealing with the system as is, and how you deal with it mentally. To me it seems like it should be the same as taxes, and having to mentally adjust for that.  I'm curious if that annoys you as well.  And yes, a system where it's included, such as VAT, might be less annoying, but again, in terms of dealing with what we have, does mentally adjusting for taxes annoy you?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 12:24:44 PM by arebelspy »
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

frugalnacho

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5055
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #169 on: December 24, 2014, 12:36:05 PM »
I actually like the tipping system and here's why.

If tips were not culturally required, the price of the food would just be proportionally higher, but it would be a mandatory part of the bill that you are forced to pay.

With the tipping system, part of the bill is transformed to somewhat optional territory where you can pay less if the service was unsatisfactory, etc.

From the perspective of customers, we should prefer the tipping system.

Most bills are optional.  That's how businesses stay in business, they offer a product or service and you voluntarily choose to pay for it.  If you don't feel it's worth it then you don't purchase that product/service. Some how almost every other industry is able to stay afloat despite not participating in the bullshit tipping system.  From my perspective as a customer I like transparent pricing and knowing exactly what I am getting and exactly what I am paying.

Do you complain when prices don't include tax?  Or do you mentally adjust for the fact that your total amount will be X% higher (depending on your local taxes)?  Why is that different with tipping?

I'm just referring to the mental part of "knowing exactly what [you are] getting, not the which system is better and whatnot part of it - I'm just thinking the practicalities of dealing with the system as is, and how you deal with it mentally. To me it seems like it should be the same as taxes, and having to mentally adjust for that.  I'm curious if that annoys you as well.  And yes, a system where it's included, such as VAT, might be less annoying, but again, in terms of dealing with what we have, does mentally adjusting for taxes annoy you?

Yes it bothers me, but no I don't complain (I also don't complain about tipping - except in a tipping thread on the internet).   

It also seems like a different issue to me.   There is no ambiguity in the tax rate, it is very precise and no one will give you flack about calculating down to the penny when you pay it.  All the people in this thread making comments that the op is an animal for tipping less than some arbitrary amount they decided is correct, or the methodology (pre or post tax?), well I have very little doubt that when they purchase goods and are charged an exact tax rate set by their state that they pay exactly the correct amount of tax and not a single penny more.

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28444
  • Age: -997
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #170 on: December 24, 2014, 12:53:06 PM »
Yes it bothers me, but no I don't complain (I also don't complain about tipping - except in a tipping thread on the internet).   

It also seems like a different issue to me.   There is no ambiguity in the tax rate, it is very precise and no one will give you flack about calculating down to the penny when you pay it.  All the people in this thread making comments that the op is an animal for tipping less than some arbitrary amount they decided is correct, or the methodology (pre or post tax?), well I have very little doubt that when they purchase goods and are charged an exact tax rate set by their state that they pay exactly the correct amount of tax and not a single penny more.

Pick your number and calculate it exactly.

Any who gives a flying fuck what others think?
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

frugalnacho

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5055
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #171 on: December 24, 2014, 03:00:59 PM »
Yes it bothers me, but no I don't complain (I also don't complain about tipping - except in a tipping thread on the internet).   

It also seems like a different issue to me.   There is no ambiguity in the tax rate, it is very precise and no one will give you flack about calculating down to the penny when you pay it.  All the people in this thread making comments that the op is an animal for tipping less than some arbitrary amount they decided is correct, or the methodology (pre or post tax?), well I have very little doubt that when they purchase goods and are charged an exact tax rate set by their state that they pay exactly the correct amount of tax and not a single penny more.

Pick your number and calculate it exactly.

Any who gives a flying fuck what others think?

That's what I do, but as evident from this thread others disagree with my method and would be verbal about it if we dined together.  The issue comes up with family and friends too. 

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7946
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #172 on: December 24, 2014, 03:42:26 PM »
They probably do not want to dine out with someone that is cheap on tips & also don't want to make up the difference themselves. The only way I would dine out with someone that did not tip decent would be to get separate checks so it would be obvious who the bad tipper was.  There are many other ways to save $. Also please remember that there is a difference between being frugal & being cheap.

MrsCoolCat

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 446
  • Age: 2019
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #173 on: December 24, 2014, 04:26:32 PM »
I actually like the tipping system and here's why.

If tips were not culturally required, the price of the food would just be proportionally higher, but it would be a mandatory part of the bill that you are forced to pay.

With the tipping system, part of the bill is transformed to somewhat optional territory where you can pay less if the service was unsatisfactory, etc.

From the perspective of customers, we should prefer the tipping system.

I don't. If the restaurant included the tip into the price of the bill then people that are too cheap to tip decent won't eat out. It would also be slightly less of an a$$ move when customers arrive 10 minutes before closing time. Currently, this only benefits the restaurant owner. I've ate in countries where tip was included into the price and the service is pretty much the same as your average TGI Fridays, etc. I've noticed  and also hate it when servers give crappy service to large tables because they automatically know that 18% is given to them per restaurant rules. I only recently noticed this and now hate large groups when eating out.

Latwell

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 137
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #174 on: December 24, 2014, 08:48:50 PM »
Being a mustachian in progress, I avoid getting food delivered. I find it a little funny that my side gig is delivering food.

Every time someone gives me a zero buck tip, it hurts. Makes me want to turn around and ask "wtf did I do wrong?" More often I just want to turn around and tell the person, "if you don't want to tip, don't ask me to bring your food to you."

I also find it amazing how many people have no clue how to tip. It is very awkward standing in front of someone while they are trying to figure out how much to give you. There have been times where people have asked me if $xx.xx is a good tip? At that point, I just tell them I'm grateful they are tipping me at all (could never ethically feel okay w/ telling them what's a good tip and what's a bad tip). Other times, people are so flustered at doing simple math. How hard is it to just pull out your phone and use the calculator or use a nice round number to figure it out?

Funny story (at least to me, lol):
I had a friend who was in need of some cash. Instead of lending my friend money ($20-$40), I give them the option of earning it so they don't have to worry about paying me back. All they have to do is come w/ me for deliveries, sit in my car and wait for a delivery, then go up to the door and give the food and get their tip. They keep the tip, I keep the hourly wage since I'm doing the driving and doing the inside work.

So my friend goes up to the door, gets the money/gives the food to the customer. The order is like $23.73. I have my window rolled down and can hear my friend talking to the customer. Customer essentially wants friend to round the cost to make it easier to find the money for the order. Friend says $23 and received $25. So when friend gets back in the car, I ask her how much she received as a tip, she says $2. She's the type of person who is not lying when they say they're bad at math. I had to explain to her to round up, not down, because she just screwed herself out of $0.73. lol

Villanelle

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6651
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #175 on: December 24, 2014, 10:19:35 PM »
What an epic sense of entitlement that one should be able to go to restaurants and then just skip out on the very clear society expectation that one tip!  You are entitled to eat at the restaurant, but free to skip the expectations that go with that choice.  That's so stingy and entitled and selfish.   If you don't want to tip, don't go to a tipping establishment. 

Do you also leave a group meal early, before the check arrives, so you can avoid paying entirely, telling yourself it is mustachian since it saves money, even if it at the expense of your friends?  Or is it only strangers you feel okay screwing for the sake of a few bucks?

firelight

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #176 on: December 25, 2014, 12:36:43 AM »
I come from a country where tipping is not the norm and had a tough time the first few months in US. Seriously, wtf is it with every single person that I meet in service industry standing by expecting tips, right from valet to bell hop to maid to waiter, even when I didn't want their services? Too many horror stories where I didn't tip or under tipped or (in later months) overtipped. It's super confusing. I'd rather that any wage cost be part of bill and people give tips only if they want to and not because they are pressured by some stupid system. Just because a system is broken, it doesn't mean we need to contribute to it. I think wait staff like the tips system because most of the tips can be unaccounted for and it gives a lot of leeway.

That said, I finally settled on giving 18% pretax for food and $ for others.

Villanelle

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6651
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #177 on: December 25, 2014, 11:26:50 AM »
I come from a country where tipping is not the norm and had a tough time the first few months in US. Seriously, wtf is it with every single person that I meet in service industry standing by expecting tips, right from valet to bell hop to maid to waiter, even when I didn't want their services? Too many horror stories where I didn't tip or under tipped or (in later months) overtipped. It's super confusing. I'd rather that any wage cost be part of bill and people give tips only if they want to and not because they are pressured by some stupid system. Just because a system is broken, it doesn't mean we need to contribute to it. I think wait staff like the tips system because most of the tips can be unaccounted for and it gives a lot of leeway.

That said, I finally settled on giving 18% pretax for food and $ for others.

I agree with most of this.  I loved living in Japan, where you basically tip no one, ever.  And Europe is almost as good.

And if one thinks the system is so broken, I wont' argue that, either.  But I think they way to not contribute, if one decides not to do so, is to avoid restaurants that "require" tips.  Take your business elsewhere.

firelight

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #178 on: December 26, 2014, 10:56:08 AM »
I've been in us for the past five years and haven't yet seen even five sit down restaurants that have a no tips policy. So the argument that we shouldn't go to restaurants that allow tipping wouldn't work unless a critical mass of people decide to not tip at the same time. IMO, I don't see that happening....

Villanelle

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6651
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #179 on: December 26, 2014, 04:18:35 PM »
I've been in us for the past five years and haven't yet seen even five sit down restaurants that have a no tips policy. So the argument that we shouldn't go to restaurants that allow tipping wouldn't work unless a critical mass of people decide to not tip at the same time. IMO, I don't see that happening....

So you aren't willing to give up anything for your principles. Got it.  You want to have what you want and not give anything up to get it. 

firelight

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #180 on: December 26, 2014, 08:37:57 PM »
Haha... Did you read my earlier post where I said I tip nowadays? I tip 18% pretax for waiters and $ amounts for others. I've given up expecting the society to change in this regard and have changed myself instead. All I'm saying is asking people to vote with dollars wouldn't work in this case without a critical mass of people doing it at the same time....

minority_finance_mo

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 784
    • Minority Finance
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #181 on: December 26, 2014, 09:02:07 PM »
I've been in us for the past five years and haven't yet seen even five sit down restaurants that have a no tips policy. So the argument that we shouldn't go to restaurants that allow tipping wouldn't work unless a critical mass of people decide to not tip at the same time. IMO, I don't see that happening....

So you aren't willing to give up anything for your principles. Got it.  You want to have what you want and not give anything up to get it.

Relax. He was only stating the obvious: saying don't go to restaurants that require tipping is basically saying don't eat at restaurants. Stop being so combative.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4929
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #182 on: December 26, 2014, 09:42:55 PM »
Haha... Did you read my earlier post where I said I tip nowadays? I tip 18% pretax for waiters and $ amounts for others. I've given up expecting the society to change in this regard and have changed myself instead. All I'm saying is asking people to vote with dollars wouldn't work in this case without a critical mass of people doing it at the same time....
True.  What is the problem then?  Either you chose to go with society or you step out, whatever you do is up to you.  Not that step out will change anything, just that those are the only two decent choices.

MrsCoolCat

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 446
  • Age: 2019
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #183 on: January 23, 2015, 08:34:06 PM »
What an epic sense of entitlement that one should be able to go to restaurants and then just skip out on the very clear society expectation that one tip!  You are entitled to eat at the restaurant, but free to skip the expectations that go with that choice.  That's so stingy and entitled and selfish.   If you don't want to tip, don't go to a tipping establishment. 

Do you also leave a group meal early, before the check arrives, so you can avoid paying entirely, telling yourself it is mustachian since it saves money, even if it at the expense of your friends?  Or is it only strangers you feel okay screwing for the sake of a few bucks?

Agreed. People have no business eating out in a restaurant in America and not tipping or under tipping (granted service didn't blow), Mustachian or not. They simply should stay home and prepare their meals. Of course ideally, we should do away with tipping and just include it in the price of the meal to prevent cheapskates from going, but that's another issue.

dunhamjr

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 241
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Kent, WA (Seattle)
  • mustachian in training est. July 14
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #184 on: January 23, 2015, 09:32:07 PM »
Pretax.
Tax rate is 9.6% already, so I don't feel the need to tip on the tax as well.

Tax is not part of the food you purchased or service received, so why would you tip on it?

MBot

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 506
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #185 on: January 23, 2015, 09:52:06 PM »
:
1.  This was in Canada so servers get minimum wage which is currently around $10 per hour (although now some liquor servers get about $1 less so around $9.00/hr). 
.

Which province were you in? In Ontario, servers get a much lower "server wage" than minimum, and usually new servers lower on the seniority food chain only work the busiest few hours so they aren't paid for a full shift

Peacefulwarrior

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 132
  • Location: Europe
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #186 on: January 24, 2015, 12:32:22 AM »
I never tip. If they don't have money to pay their waiters they need to raise their prices, cut costs or find another type of business to be in.

milesdividendmd

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1913
  • Location: Portlandia
    • Miles Dividend MD
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #187 on: January 24, 2015, 02:16:23 AM »

Next time you should ask her why the customer, who has already paid for the product and service, is expected to pay additional amounts for service that was already paid for? Ask her why the customer is the jerk for not paying a tip, but the employer is not a jerk for not paying higher wages?

Tipping is one of the worst customs in our society. And one of the most misunderstood. It's one of those things that no one can talk about because people are uninformed. Waiters make minimum wage in wages + tips or their employer has to make up the difference. You aren't cheating anyone but yourself for being a sucker and wasting money paying for a simple service.

I don't tip at all. Which doesn't cause much problems because I don't to spend money at places that would expect a tip.

Good that you don't frequent places where a tip is expected, since you don't have a clue, and would just end up fucking over somebody who works hard for a living. In the real world a lot of wait staff is paid FAR less than minimum wage ($2.83/HR in my state) and get taxed on THEORETICAL tips. As in, you're a dick who doesn't tip, due to some f'ed up philosophy, and the waitstaff ends up getting taxed on the money you didn't pay.......nice.

While I agree that to not tip in our current system would be wrong, One can make a sound argument that tipping is, in fact, a terrible way compensating for service rendered by employees.

Here's a nice article on the subject.

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5888347/one-more-case-against-tipping


dividendman

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1899
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #188 on: January 24, 2015, 02:57:46 AM »
I find it odd and amusing that so many people here are saying things like "how can you not tip! it's a societal norm! people are counting on those wages!".

If you're on this forum you're all about breaking societal norms and in fact influencing society at large to move towards new norms. Biking (won't someone think of the new car salesmen MMM has put out of jobs! for heavens sake, think of the salesmen!), saving money, not having credit card debt, not buying a new widget every week, nickel-and-diming your poor ETF vendors to get the lowest possible fees (putting the poor desk cleaners at Rip-Off Investments out of jobs), all of these societal norms are fine to break and screw those workers of jobs/money for a better overall outcome but the tipping one is not.  I don't know. It's craziness.

I see so much hypocrisy in this thread vs what is posted on the rest of the threads by the same folks.

Roads are for cars is a societal norm in most places in the USA. I'm sure there are drivers everywhere that get pissed off when a slow-ass bike is in their way and car salesman and all of the auto industry is impacted with less car sales. Do you know how to change the societal norm of this guy being pissed off and the people getting less cash from the auto sector? Get more bikes out there so it's more routine. Sure, more guys get pissed off at first and the massive increase in biking hurts the auto sector, but they get used to it, hell, some will even start biking themselves and new bike companies emerge, not to mention the environmental and health benefits to the population (putting the poor hospital staff out of work).

It seems like everyone agrees it would be better if the restaurant just charged more and paid their workers fair amounts - yet most are not willing to actually implement that change via the tough medicine of not tipping. Societal changes only happen when people start doing it! Sure, maybe with higher listed prices and no tips less people would go to restaurants and jobs would be lost (and in the interim the wait staff wouldn't get tips and thus quit/have hardship), but it's the same as biking and overall we'd be in a non-tipping utopia! :P

All of this being said I always tip - so I'm a hypocrite too. But now I'm reconsidering this position. Perhaps, instead of tipping, I will contribute the money I would have tipped to charity to help feed the poor. This will hopefully slowly enact the societal change on tipping that I want and help those in need (which I also want to do).

Captain and Mrs Slow

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 414
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Munich Germany
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #189 on: January 24, 2015, 04:03:02 AM »
back in Canada over the holidays and paying by debit/credit card they give you an option to give an amount or percentage, saves the hassle of calculating it. In reality you're adding 30% with tip and tax to the bill.

Spork

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5742
    • Spork In The Eye
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #190 on: January 24, 2015, 09:29:44 AM »
I find it odd and amusing that so many people here are saying things like "how can you not tip! it's a societal norm! people are counting on those wages!".

If you're on this forum you're all about breaking societal norms and in fact influencing society at large to move towards new norms. Biking (won't someone think of the new car salesmen MMM has put out of jobs! for heavens sake, think of the salesmen!), saving money, not having credit card debt, not buying a new widget every week, nickel-and-diming your poor ETF vendors to get the lowest possible fees (putting the poor desk cleaners at Rip-Off Investments out of jobs), all of these societal norms are fine to break and screw those workers of jobs/money for a better overall outcome but the tipping one is not.  I don't know. It's craziness.

I see so much hypocrisy in this thread vs what is posted on the rest of the threads by the same folks.

You do understand there's a big difference, right? 

The analogy to bike vs car wouldn't be "don't tip".  It would be "don't dine out."   If you want to make an analogy to car buying, buy a car, pay the amount negotiated but subtract out the salesman's commission (because the dealership should pay him more!).  In this case, you'd probably have to run like hell with the keys.

If you don't like it, you need to be talking to the restaurant management, not the server.  Or eat at home. 

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17496
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #191 on: January 24, 2015, 10:13:05 AM »
back in Canada over the holidays and paying by debit/credit card they give you an option to give an amount or percentage, saves the hassle of calculating it. In reality you're adding 30% with tip and tax to the bill.
Only problem with this method is that by choosing the "%" option, it's calculated on the total bill (i.e. the bill + the tax).  So if you elect to pay your server "15%" of the total, you will in fact be giving him/her 17.25%. 

austin

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 147
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #192 on: January 24, 2015, 10:23:23 AM »
If you are not going to tip (in America), don't dine out. It just isn't for you. You not tipping is not some groundbreaking rebellion from societal norms, it is you being a cheap jerk and giving frugality a bad name.

Feel free to break societal norms by not dining out at all.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 10:53:20 AM by austin »

Villanelle

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6651
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #193 on: January 24, 2015, 10:38:45 AM »
I find it odd and amusing that so many people here are saying things like "how can you not tip! it's a societal norm! people are counting on those wages!".

If you're on this forum you're all about breaking societal norms and in fact influencing society at large to move towards new norms. Biking (won't someone think of the new car salesmen MMM has put out of jobs! for heavens sake, think of the salesmen!), saving money, not having credit card debt, not buying a new widget every week, nickel-and-diming your poor ETF vendors to get the lowest possible fees (putting the poor desk cleaners at Rip-Off Investments out of jobs), all of these societal norms are fine to break and screw those workers of jobs/money for a better overall outcome but the tipping one is not.  I don't know. It's craziness.

I see so much hypocrisy in this thread vs what is posted on the rest of the threads by the same folks.

Roads are for cars is a societal norm in most places in the USA. I'm sure there are drivers everywhere that get pissed off when a slow-ass bike is in their way and car salesman and all of the auto industry is impacted with less car sales. Do you know how to change the societal norm of this guy being pissed off and the people getting less cash from the auto sector? Get more bikes out there so it's more routine. Sure, more guys get pissed off at first and the massive increase in biking hurts the auto sector, but they get used to it, hell, some will even start biking themselves and new bike companies emerge, not to mention the environmental and health benefits to the population (putting the poor hospital staff out of work).

It seems like everyone agrees it would be better if the restaurant just charged more and paid their workers fair amounts - yet most are not willing to actually implement that change via the tough medicine of not tipping. Societal changes only happen when people start doing it! Sure, maybe with higher listed prices and no tips less people would go to restaurants and jobs would be lost (and in the interim the wait staff wouldn't get tips and thus quit/have hardship), but it's the same as biking and overall we'd be in a non-tipping utopia! :P

All of this being said I always tip - so I'm a hypocrite too. But now I'm reconsidering this position. Perhaps, instead of tipping, I will contribute the money I would have tipped to charity to help feed the poor. This will hopefully slowly enact the societal change on tipping that I want and help those in need (which I also want to do).

Choosing not to drive it not comparable to not tipping.  It is comparable to not going out to eat.  If people don't want to tip, challenging that societal norm by not going to tipping establishments is fine.  Violating a social contract--which is not the same as challenging a societal norm--forces someone else to pay (literally) for one's decision to challenge that norm.  That's when it stops being okay.

It's more like suggesting someone go to their friends' homes to eat and never invite them over in return, in order to avoid paying for groceries.  Only in that case, at least your friends can refuse.  Your waiter doesn't have that choice. 

Tabaxus

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 452
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #194 on: January 24, 2015, 10:42:22 AM »
Next time you should ask her why the customer, who has already paid for the product and service, is expected to pay additional amounts for service that was already paid for? Ask her why the customer is the jerk for not paying a tip, but the employer is not a jerk for not paying higher wages?

Tipping is one of the worst customs in our society. And one of the most misunderstood. It's one of those things that no one can talk about because people are uninformed. Waiters make minimum wage in wages + tips or their employer has to make up the difference. You aren't cheating anyone but yourself for being a sucker and wasting money paying for a simple service.

I don't tip at all. Which doesn't cause much problems because I don't to spend money at places that would expect a tip.

Wow.  You (and everyone in this thread that agrees with you) are despicable.  Legally, yes, restaurants are supposed to make up the gap between minimum wage and tips + server minimum wage.  (A) This doesn't actually happen on a pretty frequent basis, and any server who tried to push the issue would be fired.  Rightly or wrongly.  (B)  Your food is priced around the expectation that you will tip when service is good, i.e., for your position to hold, the food would need to be more expensive.  (C)  You literally cause your server to lose money for the time they spent on your table, because a percentage of your bill is tipped out to other folks, but the "server minimum wage + tips" rule is done on an aggregate basis (when it's followed at all). (D) This smacks of "they're only entitled to minimum wage!" which, given the difficulties of the job (to the extent you think it's an easy job--have you ever done it?  It's not intellectually challenging, and it doesn't require formal education, but it's a very demanding job physically) is absurd.  (E)  If you want your server to only be making minimum wage--with the commensurate savings on your meal--go to a counter joint, not a sit-down restaurant.

You should not be going out to eat, and I hope that you are recognized at every restaurant you enter and receive godawful service as a result.

Personally, I don't think all restaurant prices should be upped and the tipping convention eliminated.  I appreciate the fact that servers have incentive to provide good service.  But as long as that social contract exists, people who don't observe it are assholes.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 10:46:10 AM by Tabaxus »

Gilead1986

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #195 on: January 24, 2015, 11:01:40 AM »
I find it odd and amusing that so many people here are saying things like "how can you not tip! it's a societal norm! people are counting on those wages!".

If you're on this forum you're all about breaking societal norms and in fact influencing society at large to move towards new norms. Biking (won't someone think of the new car salesmen MMM has put out of jobs! for heavens sake, think of the salesmen!), saving money, not having credit card debt, not buying a new widget every week, nickel-and-diming your poor ETF vendors to get the lowest possible fees (putting the poor desk cleaners at Rip-Off Investments out of jobs), all of these societal norms are fine to break and screw those workers of jobs/money for a better overall outcome but the tipping one is not.  I don't know. It's craziness.

I see so much hypocrisy in this thread vs what is posted on the rest of the threads by the same folks.

If you don't like it, you need to be talking to the restaurant management, not the server.  Or eat at home.

Having worked in a restaurant for 11 years; the management could really care less whether the employee lives or dies.  Theres always a stack of applications 40 high in the office reminding us so.  Occasionally a guest will wave a manager over and declare "He/she deserves a raise", and not tip but 5% on decent service, so they may deserve more money, but apparently not from the guest. 

Spork

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5742
    • Spork In The Eye
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #196 on: January 24, 2015, 11:03:47 AM »
I find it odd and amusing that so many people here are saying things like "how can you not tip! it's a societal norm! people are counting on those wages!".

If you're on this forum you're all about breaking societal norms and in fact influencing society at large to move towards new norms. Biking (won't someone think of the new car salesmen MMM has put out of jobs! for heavens sake, think of the salesmen!), saving money, not having credit card debt, not buying a new widget every week, nickel-and-diming your poor ETF vendors to get the lowest possible fees (putting the poor desk cleaners at Rip-Off Investments out of jobs), all of these societal norms are fine to break and screw those workers of jobs/money for a better overall outcome but the tipping one is not.  I don't know. It's craziness.

I see so much hypocrisy in this thread vs what is posted on the rest of the threads by the same folks.

If you don't like it, you need to be talking to the restaurant management, not the server.  Or eat at home.

Having worked in a restaurant for 11 years; the management could really care less whether the employee lives or dies.  Theres always a stack of applications 40 high in the office reminding us so.  Occasionally a guest will wave a manager over and declare "He/she deserves a raise", and not tip but 5% on decent service, so they may deserve more money, but apparently not from the guest.

My point was: stiffing the server isn't a valid form of protest for the way the tipping system works.

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7946
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #197 on: January 24, 2015, 11:41:07 AM »
YOu are so right!

dividendman

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1899
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #198 on: January 24, 2015, 11:59:56 AM »

You do understand there's a big difference, right? 

The analogy to bike vs car wouldn't be "don't tip".  It would be "don't dine out."   If you want to make an analogy to car buying, buy a car, pay the amount negotiated but subtract out the salesman's commission (because the dealership should pay him more!).  In this case, you'd probably have to run like hell with the keys.

If you don't like it, you need to be talking to the restaurant management, not the server.  Or eat at home.

Yes I understand there is difference hence why I still tip, however I am looking for ways to change the system quickly. I didn't see any other ideas to actually change the system most of us agree isn't good (besides not eating out - which also hurts the server, just not directly, but everyone is fine with that, I guess). The way I like to view my actions is: if everyone behaved like me today, would this be good in the long run or bad? If everyone stopped tipping tomorrow, what do you think would happen? Would all the servers just work for less or would the restaurants pay more?

People also hurt car salesman commission all the time by negotiating like crazy over cars (which is fine) but don't negotiate at other stores due to silly societal norms as well.

superone!

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 112
Re: Bizarre restaurant tipping incident
« Reply #199 on: January 24, 2015, 01:27:44 PM »
Choosing not to drive it not comparable to not tipping.  It is comparable to not going out to eat.  If people don't want to tip, challenging that societal norm by not going to tipping establishments is fine.  Violating a social contract--which is not the same as challenging a societal norm--forces someone else to pay (literally) for one's decision to challenge that norm.  That's when it stops being okay.


+1000 to this. I get that there is an issue in America about how waitstaff are paid--and that system should be changed. But the answer is certainly NOT to break a social contract and shortchange the waitstaff.

I tip 20% post-tax and pre-coupon, unless the service was bad, in which case I have gone as low as 15%.