Bike commute and time value

[mskyle]

It's a hardship that makes you tough

What if you're already tough?  I do plenty of DIY stuff (I'll be spending Memorial Day weekend digging out my sewer line by hand for instance), and I served in the military for several years, for crissakes.  But the biking mafia acts like the only way to really be happy, or tough, or physically fit, or frugal, or what have you, is with a bike.  It's horseshit.  It's A way, not THE way.

I suspect the biking mafia acts that way because it's SOOOOOO easy to get  a rise out of you. For every one person in this thread that is taking a hardcore stance there are about 10 who are saying "do whatever the heck you want." But that's boring and doesn't get reactions.

[Chris22]

It's a hardship that makes you tough

What if you're already tough?  I do plenty of DIY stuff (I'll be spending Memorial Day weekend digging out my sewer line by hand for instance), and I served in the military for several years, for crissakes.  But the biking mafia acts like the only way to really be happy, or tough, or physically fit, or frugal, or what have you, is with a bike.  It's horseshit.  It's A way, not THE way.

I suspect the biking mafia acts that way because it's SOOOOOO easy to get  a rise out of you. For every one person in this thread that is taking a hardcore stance there are about 10 who are saying "do whatever the heck you want." But that's boring and doesn't get reactions.

It's not just this thread I'm referring to.  MMM himself has a long history of wildly overstating the effects of bikes on things like finances, and I don't think I've ever engaged him on it.  He's not doing it to get a rise out of me. 

[robartsd]

Biking can save a ton of money if it does not mean a rapidly depreciating car is sitting unused. The key do saving money by biking is reducing automotive costs (since you don't use a car as much you buy a cheaper car or own fewer of them to reduce depreciation costs in addition to not having to fill the tank as often). Many cyclists simply enjoy cycling (or detest driving). Many people get much more excercise if they make excercise part of their routine transportation. Many people overestimate the extra time cycling will take them because they do not recognize that some of the extra time it takes initially is due to inefficencies of changing a routine. If you're sure than none of these statements apply to you, then don't bike; however, I personally think people should give it a good try to see if it is an exploding volcano of awesomeness to them.

[mskyle]

It's a hardship that makes you tough

What if you're already tough?  I do plenty of DIY stuff (I'll be spending Memorial Day weekend digging out my sewer line by hand for instance), and I served in the military for several years, for crissakes.  But the biking mafia acts like the only way to really be happy, or tough, or physically fit, or frugal, or what have you, is with a bike.  It's horseshit.  It's A way, not THE way.

I suspect the biking mafia acts that way because it's SOOOOOO easy to get  a rise out of you. For every one person in this thread that is taking a hardcore stance there are about 10 who are saying "do whatever the heck you want." But that's boring and doesn't get reactions.

It's not just this thread I'm referring to.  MMM himself has a long history of wildly overstating the effects of bikes on things like finances, and I don't think I've ever engaged him on it.  He's not doing it to get a rise out of me.

Not to get a rise out of you personally, but to get a rise out of people in general? I absolutely think he is. He's a rabble-rousing kind of guy.

[GuitarStv]

It's a hardship that makes you tough

What if you're already tough?  I do plenty of DIY stuff (I'll be spending Memorial Day weekend digging out my sewer line by hand for instance), and I served in the military for several years, for crissakes.  But the biking mafia acts like the only way to really be happy, or tough, or physically fit, or frugal, or what have you, is with a bike.  It's horseshit.  It's A way, not THE way.

Well, yeah.  There are plenty of ways to be happy.  Pick one that you like.

Cycling has a unique set of benefits, which I think have been well covered in this and various other threads.  If you don't think that you would benefit from the extra exercise, have a commute where there's significant time savings driving, get plenty of outdoors time in other ways, are sticking to circumstances that prevent you from saving money cycling, and just generally don't enjoy cycling at all . . . then do something else.

Cycling is very often dismissed out of hand without really thinking about the many positives simply because it's not a common form of transportation.  That's why you'll find many people on this board quick to jump out in defense of riding a bike.  It's not because they want you to be miserable and pedaling, but because they want to share the good times.

[JoRocka]

Driving is a pretty damn nice way to get around if you value time with your family.  There is zero plausible financial case for biking instead of driving, unless you are able to own one less car as a result.  The case for biking is that it's a way to get exercise while borrowing your commute time to do part of it.  It's not even better for the environment unless maybe if you're vegan.

So, just to pick at one part of this post . . . I don't understand your last sentence at all.

There are obviously millions more choices.  None of them are going to break the bank, or are significantly environmentally damaging.  There's no difference if Person A is a vegan or not.

So, WTF did you mean?

I assume he meant something like eating an extra pound of chicken to get the extra 800-1000 calories. I'm too lazy to look up the CO2 emissions per pound of chicken vs a 15 mile drive..

Sorry to say, but personally I don't really care much about the "saving the planet" feelgood aspect. If I don't ruin the environment someone else will anyway. What I do in my life will have 0.00000001% impact on the inevitable destruction of the earth so why bother. Now I don't throw shit in nature, but I don't believe in driving less to save the world either, sorry.


edit: found another option for your list:
- eat 110 hardboiled eggs ($28).
And per my source you'd need to eat 1.5 cup of hummus. About $3-4 worth

110 hardboiled eggs?

That's like 7700 calories.

500 calories is only like 7 whole eggs.
Or 29 and change egg whites.

edit- I have nothing really to add to the biking situation- I live 5.5 miles from work and drive every day- I have multiple stops after work and taking a bike will make my schedule impossible and I'm not willing to trade what I do now to ride a bike.
I wish I could- but it would be a 200-300$ investment for riding to work 2-3 days a week. not worth it for me.

[Scandium]

Driving is a pretty damn nice way to get around if you value time with your family.  There is zero plausible financial case for biking instead of driving, unless you are able to own one less car as a result.  The case for biking is that it's a way to get exercise while borrowing your commute time to do part of it.  It's not even better for the environment unless maybe if you're vegan.

So, just to pick at one part of this post . . . I don't understand your last sentence at all.

There are obviously millions more choices.  None of them are going to break the bank, or are significantly environmentally damaging.  There's no difference if Person A is a vegan or not.

So, WTF did you mean?

I assume he meant something like eating an extra pound of chicken to get the extra 800-1000 calories. I'm too lazy to look up the CO2 emissions per pound of chicken vs a 15 mile drive..

Sorry to say, but personally I don't really care much about the "saving the planet" feelgood aspect. If I don't ruin the environment someone else will anyway. What I do in my life will have 0.00000001% impact on the inevitable destruction of the earth so why bother. Now I don't throw shit in nature, but I don't believe in driving less to save the world either, sorry.


edit: found another option for your list:
- eat 110 hardboiled eggs ($28).
And per my source you'd need to eat 1.5 cup of hummus. About $3-4 worth

110 hardboiled eggs?

That's like 7700 calories.

500 calories is only like 7 whole eggs.
Or 29 and change egg whites.

You're right. I didn't notice that the stupid site I used had egg WHITES as the first result. Who the hell only eat whites??

So 10 eggs then. $2.50

[JoRocka]

Driving is a pretty damn nice way to get around if you value time with your family.  There is zero plausible financial case for biking instead of driving, unless you are able to own one less car as a result.  The case for biking is that it's a way to get exercise while borrowing your commute time to do part of it.  It's not even better for the environment unless maybe if you're vegan.

So, just to pick at one part of this post . . . I don't understand your last sentence at all.

There are obviously millions more choices.  None of them are going to break the bank, or are significantly environmentally damaging.  There's no difference if Person A is a vegan or not.

So, WTF did you mean?

I assume he meant something like eating an extra pound of chicken to get the extra 800-1000 calories. I'm too lazy to look up the CO2 emissions per pound of chicken vs a 15 mile drive..

Sorry to say, but personally I don't really care much about the "saving the planet" feelgood aspect. If I don't ruin the environment someone else will anyway. What I do in my life will have 0.00000001% impact on the inevitable destruction of the earth so why bother. Now I don't throw shit in nature, but I don't believe in driving less to save the world either, sorry.


edit: found another option for your list:
- eat 110 hardboiled eggs ($28).
And per my source you'd need to eat 1.5 cup of hummus. About $3-4 worth

110 hardboiled eggs?

That's like 7700 calories.

500 calories is only like 7 whole eggs.
Or 29 and change egg whites.

You're right. I didn't notice that the stupid site I used had egg WHITES as the first result. Who the hell only eat whites??

So 10 eggs then. $2.50

I'm an egg nazi/affecanado. I go through about a dozen every day - or every 2 days. So It really jumped out at me LOL.

I eat usually 3 whole eggs to 6 egg whites in my cutting season for my dinner. So- I go through quite a bit of egg whites- but never plain- that's just gross.

Bulking season it's fucking game on.

[GuitarStv]

You're right. I didn't notice that the stupid site I used had egg WHITES as the first result. Who the hell only eats whites??

Rich people, it would seem.

[JoRocka]

You're right. I didn't notice that the stupid site I used had egg WHITES as the first result. Who the hell only eats whites??

Rich people, it would seem.

I'd argue and say uneducated people with poor taste buds given that the bulk of the good stuff is in the yolk- and it makes it taste better LOL

[big_slacker]

I regularly rode 50-60 kms in sneakers and studded flats last year.  No problems climbing hills, no problems with efficiency.  With clipless shoes I go faster sprinting away from a light, and seem to be able to put out more power going up a hill.

I would not recommend them to someone who is new to cycling . . . there is a learning curve.  You will probably fall off your bike at some point because of the pedals, and you really don't want this to be in traffic.  You do have to spend extra money on shoes and pedals.  You have to position the cleat on the bottom of your shoes properly, or it can cause all sorts of strange problems/injuries.

I rode SS for years road and MTB, went back and forth between flats and clipless. I currently have two SS with flats (MTB and a beach cruiser) and two other bikes with clipless (MTB and my commuter). Definitely there with you on the pros and cons of both. I was just saying not to discount clipless as never needed by a bike commuter, but to figure out how they might or might not benefit you and make a good choice.

[Goldielocks]

Robartsd is on the right track, about financial value for biking.

I have found, that there is a minimal return, if you will own and insure a vehicle anyway.   e.g., not get rid of a car that you own...

The benefit of cycling to work, financially, comes after a bit of time, and you go down to one car due to scrapping, repairs, move to a new situation, and then don't rent a replacement and you extend the time until you get another car, sometimes for a year or more....

OR, if you sell a money hog of a car to get rid of HAIR ON FIRE....

OR, when your kids start to drive, if you are a cycling family, then you don't feel the need to go and acquire a second or third car.

The financial benefits are real, but sometimes are not immediate.

[ender]

Driving is a pretty damn nice way to get around if you value time with your family.  There is zero plausible financial case for biking instead of driving, unless you are able to own one less car as a result.  The case for biking is that it's a way to get exercise while borrowing your commute time to do part of it.  It's not even better for the environment unless maybe if you're vegan.

For a lot of people, they get a very good return on their time biking. My door to desk car commute is 15 minutes and biking is about 30 minutes, so if I choose to bike to work I basically am trading 30 minutes of actual time for an hour of exercise PLUS the benefits of not driving.

Some people can't get as good of a "return" on their time spent biking. For me though? Huge return on that time. I basically can exercise and get a "2x the benefits!" coupon every time I do so.

And regarding the financial benefits, I disagree. Because I can bike to work and often do, we are able to have older and less reliable (aka cheaper) cars. It is less important for our family to have multiple reliable vehicles because I don't need one in order to get to work. This will save us a lot of money both short and long term.

[JJ-]

Robartsd is on the right track, about financial value for biking.

I have found, that there is a minimal return, if you will own and insure a vehicle anyway.   e.g., not get rid of a car that you own...

The benefit of cycling to work, financially, comes after a bit of time, and you go down to one car due to scrapping, repairs, move to a new situation, and then don't rent a replacement and you extend the time until you get another car, sometimes for a year or more....

We went from a 2-car to a 1-car household after biking.

[robartsd]

Even if the cost of the cars you choose only decreases by a few thousand dollars because you choose to bike, it can significantly tip the scale for cost savings, with a significant bend point when the value of the car is low enough that you drop full coverage and another significant bend point where you own fewer cars. Cost of parking at work also can have a significant impact on the available savings to a bike commuter. I'm with ender on the exercise gained negating any extra time taken making all cost savings a plus with no time downside.

[GuitarStv]

Robartsd is on the right track, about financial value for biking.

I have found, that there is a minimal return, if you will own and insure a vehicle anyway.   e.g., not get rid of a car that you own...

The benefit of cycling to work, financially, comes after a bit of time, and you go down to one car due to scrapping, repairs, move to a new situation, and then don't rent a replacement and you extend the time until you get another car, sometimes for a year or more....

We went from a 2-car to a 1-car household after biking.

The only way that our family has managed to stay 1 car is due to my cycling.

[Scandium]

Even if the cost of the cars you choose only decreases by a few thousand dollars because you choose to bike, it can significantly tip the scale for cost savings, with a significant bend point when the value of the car is low enough that you drop full coverage and another significant bend point where you own fewer cars. Cost of parking at work also can have a significant impact on the available savings to a bike commuter. I'm with ender on the exercise gained negating any extra time taken making all cost savings a plus with no time downside.

Yes if that's the case it's certainly possible to save money. But this area is insanely car-dependent. Going 1 car with a kid is pretty much out of the question. Although maybe it would allow is to keep a crappier car at some point.

I likewise don't see much value in the exercise. I'm in "good enough" shape, additional biking isn't likely to get me much. And as discussed would involve eating at least $2/day more in food so not a total savings anyway. Bike vs driving could lead to couple bucks per day saved, maybe. But a very low hourly rate.

[GuitarStv]

Yes if that's the case it's certainly possible to save money. But this area is insanely car-dependent. Going 1 car with a kid is pretty much out of the question. Although maybe it would allow is to keep a crappier car at some point.

I likewise don't see much value in the exercise. I'm in "good enough" shape, additional biking isn't likely to get me much. And as discussed would involve eating at least $2/day more in food so not a total savings anyway. Bike vs driving could lead to couple bucks per day saved, maybe. But a very low hourly rate.

As was discussed, the food costs are entirely up to you.  You could grab a couple sugar packets from the coffee station at work and not spend anything.  You could buy a 50lb bag of discount oats, and spend only a few cents to replace your calories.

[Chris22]

Even if the cost of the cars you choose only decreases by a few thousand dollars because you choose to bike, it can significantly tip the scale for cost savings, with a significant bend point when the value of the car is low enough that you drop full coverage and another significant bend point where you own fewer cars. Cost of parking at work also can have a significant impact on the available savings to a bike commuter. I'm with ender on the exercise gained negating any extra time taken making all cost savings a plus with no time downside.

And that's all fine and true, but for someone who doesn't bike commute, telling them bike commuting a few days is a huge financial benefit because maybe they can go down a car is a stretch.  You're assuming a huge level of commitment from someone currently not biking at all in order to really see a return.  I could bike commute a few days a week a few months a year.  But all that really does is save me a couple bucks a day in gas and pushing out oil changes and tires a few weeks.  I cannot give up a car, because my spouse and I work in opposite directions and we share responsibility for collecting our daughter from school, which can't realistically be done via bike given the hours the school is open (I work 8:30-5:15-530 most days, and school opens at 8:10 and closes promptly at 6, it's just not reasonable to build in additional time for biking and maintain my work hours and school hours). 

Basically not bike commuting is a commitment of 0/10, commuting a few days a week in nice weather is a 2/10, and giving up one of 2 cars is an 8 or 9/10.  Most people are not going to get from 0 to 8-9, and that's where you actually get material savings. 

[Northwestie]

Lifestyle choices I suppose.  My motto has always been if I can't bike to work it's too far away.  So it's always guided my job choice.  Why would I want to spend a chunk of time in a vehicle going back and forth in a line every day?

[GuitarStv]

And that's all fine and true, but for someone who doesn't bike commute, telling them bike commuting a few days is a huge financial benefit because maybe they can go down a car is a stretch.  You're assuming a huge level of commitment from someone currently not biking at all in order to really see a return.  I could bike commute a few days a week a few months a year.  But all that really does is save me a couple bucks a day in gas and pushing out oil changes and tires a few weeks.  I cannot give up a car, because my spouse and I work in opposite directions and we share responsibility for collecting our daughter from school, which can't realistically be done via bike given the hours the school is open (I work 8:30-5:15-530 most days, and school opens at 8:10 and closes promptly at 6, it's just not reasonable to build in additional time for biking and maintain my work hours and school hours). 

Basically not bike commuting is a commitment of 0/10, commuting a few days a week in nice weather is a 2/10, and giving up one of 2 cars is an 8 or 9/10.  Most people are not going to get from 0 to 8-9, and that's where you actually get material savings.

Telling someone to stop buying useless shit and invest the money is a big commitment.  The usual response is that they couldn't possibly improve their life . . . it's far too much hard work.  Spending that money is essential due to inflexibility that they have created in their life.  The cool thing is, it's your life.  That inflexibility is your choice though.

If you want to hang on to your choices that create a situation where biking to work is impossible, that's cool.  If you want to keep living at the edge of financial catastrophe, that's also cool.  But on this forum people are going to try to prod you in a better direction.

[Chris22]

Lifestyle choices I suppose.  My motto has always been if I can't bike to work it's too far away.  So it's always guided my job choice.  Why would I want to spend a chunk of time in a vehicle going back and forth in a line every day?

That's your priority, and that's fine.  I place upward career mobility and home ownership in a desirable area higher on my priority list than pure proximity to work.  Add in a child and a working spouse and it gets even more complicated, and then maybe you need to switch jobs for whatever reason and how does that affect you?  I've lived as close as 2 miles and as far as 35 miles from my office, and occasionally those were not my choices to make, like when I was laid off and my best opportunity was pretty far from my house. 

[Chris22]

If you want to hang on to your choices that create a situation where biking to work is impossible, that's cool.  If you want to keep living at the edge of financial catastrophe, that's also cool.

Yes, because those two are highly correlated all the time.  Thanks for your concern. 

[GuitarStv]

If you want to hang on to your choices that create a situation where biking to work is impossible, that's cool.  If you want to keep living at the edge of financial catastrophe, that's also cool.

Yes, because those two are highly correlated all the time.  Thanks for your concern.

No, they're not highly correlated all the time.  But it's the same set of excuses in both cases.

[Erica]

Lifestyle choices I suppose.  My motto has always been if I can't bike to work it's too far away.  So it's always guided my job choice.  Why would I want to spend a chunk of time in a vehicle going back and forth in a line every day?

That's your priority, and that's fine.  I place upward career mobility and home ownership in a desirable area higher on my priority list than pure proximity to work.  Add in a child and a working spouse and it gets even more complicated, and then maybe you need to switch jobs for whatever reason and how does that affect you?  I've lived as close as 2 miles and as far as 35 miles from my office, and occasionally those were not my choices to make, like when I was laid off and my best opportunity was pretty far from my house.

When you are single, your choices are vast. Depending upon our status, kids and their ages, spouse, it's easy to forget

[Erica]

If you want to hang on to your choices that create a situation where biking to work is impossible, that's cool.  If you want to keep living at the edge of financial catastrophe, that's also cool.

Yes, because those two are highly correlated all the time.  Thanks for your concern.

LOL!!

[robartsd]

I cannot give up a car, because my spouse and I work in opposite directions and we share responsibility for collecting our daughter from school, which can't realistically be done via bike given the hours the school is open (I work 8:30-5:15-530 most days, and school opens at 8:10 and closes promptly at 6, it's just not reasonable to build in additional time for biking and maintain my work hours and school hours).

Some people have flexible enough work schedules to work an eariler shift if responsible for kid pick up or a later shift if responsible for kid drop off. Many people bike with kids (this does require a significantly greater equipment expense). I don't think people here are judging you for your choice not to bike, just providing nudges that say you can probably make it possible and you might find that it is an exploding volcano of awesomeness: "You do not like [it], so you say. Try [it], try [it], and you may. Try [it] and you may I say!" Of course, it is easier to decide if you like Green Eggs and Ham in one bite than it is to decide if you like cycle commuting in one day (or even one week).

[Tyson]

I don't commute from work anymore, but I do still bike for transport.  What I found is that it takes more time to get where I'm going, but I save time later that I'd normally use going to the gym or doing other exercise specific activities.  So for me it's not so much a cost  savings as it a time savings. 

Most people look at time biking vs time driving (40 minutes vs 20 minutes for example).  But biking can also save time because you don't have to drive to a gym (10 minutes to and from), or do "aerobic" exercise at the gym (another 30 minutes at least).  You might still go to the gym for the resistance exercise.  I started doing bodyweight exercises at home and biking everywhere, which let me drop my gym membership and still keep in shape, but it less time.  Also saved the $35 per month gym fee. 

[Northwestie]

Lifestyle choices I suppose.  My motto has always been if I can't bike to work it's too far away.  So it's always guided my job choice.  Why would I want to spend a chunk of time in a vehicle going back and forth in a line every day?

That's your priority, and that's fine.  I place upward career mobility and home ownership in a desirable area higher on my priority list than pure proximity to work.  Add in a child and a working spouse and it gets even more complicated, and then maybe you need to switch jobs for whatever reason and how does that affect you?  I've lived as close as 2 miles and as far as 35 miles from my office, and occasionally those were not my choices to make, like when I was laid off and my best opportunity was pretty far from my house.

I haven't found these items incompatible.  My career is at an apex, I get paid very well, the house is paid off, $1.5M in retirement savings, raised the kid, live in  great neighborhood, kept the marriage strong, blah, blah.

And I have a 30 minute bike ride to work.  And I made that a conscious choice. 

[Chris22]

Lifestyle choices I suppose.  My motto has always been if I can't bike to work it's too far away.  So it's always guided my job choice.  Why would I want to spend a chunk of time in a vehicle going back and forth in a line every day?

That's your priority, and that's fine.  I place upward career mobility and home ownership in a desirable area higher on my priority list than pure proximity to work.  Add in a child and a working spouse and it gets even more complicated, and then maybe you need to switch jobs for whatever reason and how does that affect you?  I've lived as close as 2 miles and as far as 35 miles from my office, and occasionally those were not my choices to make, like when I was laid off and my best opportunity was pretty far from my house.

I haven't found these items incompatible.  My career is at an apex, I get paid very well, the house is paid off, $1.5M in retirement savings, raised the kid, live in  great neighborhood, kept the marriage strong, blah, blah.

And I have a 30 minute bike ride to work.  And I made that a conscious choice.

They aren't inherently incompatible or compatible.  I just find it simplistic to say "well, if I can't bike to work it just means I live or work in the wrong place."  Well, changing either of those can have an extremely high switching cost.  And then you add in a working spouse, and now you have to triangulate three locations, and if one or more can be dynamic (lose your close to home job, are you going to turn down a further away job?  Or move and all the costs that entails?) it can really throw a wrench into things. 

I've basically optimized our location as far as CURRENT jobs and school systems go.  My office is 17 miles from my wife's.  Her office is 15 miles from our house.  My office is 7 miles from our house (offices are basically due N/S from one another, House is a few miles west of the midpoint due to schools and $$$ of real estate).  And all that could get thrown in the air tomorrow if one of us needs to change jobs, for reasons either good or bad (better opportunity or job loss).

[Eric]

Chriss22, don't you ever get tired of continually posting about how you can't bike commute?  Because you sure do have a bunch of them.  It's pretty funny.  Any thread that even mentions riding a bike must require you to pop in and post about how you don't.  Do you have a google alert set up or something?  For someone who continually claims to be happy with his choices, you sure seem to feel the need to continually justify them.

[Chris22]

Chriss22, don't you ever get tired of continually posting about how you can't bike commute?  Because you sure do have a bunch of them.  It's pretty funny.  Any thread that even mentions riding a bike must require you to pop in and post about how you don't.  Do you have a google alert set up or something?  For someone who continually claims to be happy with his choices, you sure seem to feel the need to continually justify them.

Nope.  I work in O&G, business is slow.  Gotta entertain myself somehow.  #TeamAntiBike

[Northwestie]

Lifestyle choices I suppose.  My motto has always been if I can't bike to work it's too far away.  So it's always guided my job choice.  Why would I want to spend a chunk of time in a vehicle going back and forth in a line every day?

That's your priority, and that's fine.  I place upward career mobility and home ownership in a desirable area higher on my priority list than pure proximity to work.  Add in a child and a working spouse and it gets even more complicated, and then maybe you need to switch jobs for whatever reason and how does that affect you?  I've lived as close as 2 miles and as far as 35 miles from my office, and occasionally those were not my choices to make, like when I was laid off and my best opportunity was pretty far from my house.

I haven't found these items incompatible.  My career is at an apex, I get paid very well, the house is paid off, $1.5M in retirement savings, raised the kid, live in  great neighborhood, kept the marriage strong, blah, blah.

And I have a 30 minute bike ride to work.  And I made that a conscious choice.

They aren't inherently incompatible or compatible.  I just find it simplistic to say "well, if I can't bike to work it just means I live or work in the wrong place."  Well, changing either of those can have an extremely high switching cost.  And then you add in a working spouse, and now you have to triangulate three locations, and if one or more can be dynamic (lose your close to home job, are you going to turn down a further away job?  Or move and all the costs that entails?) it can really throw a wrench into things. 

I've basically optimized our location as far as CURRENT jobs and school systems go.  My office is 17 miles from my wife's.  Her office is 15 miles from our house.  My office is 7 miles from our house (offices are basically due N/S from one another, House is a few miles west of the midpoint due to schools and $$$ of real estate).  And all that could get thrown in the air tomorrow if one of us needs to change jobs, for reasons either good or bad (better opportunity or job loss).

Everyone makes choices in their life.  And yea, working where I live was on top of the list.  It's worked out great.  If you have other priorities  have at it.  I just wanted to keep my stress down and maintain a healthy lifestyle - and keep the frugal thing going. 

[JJ-]

Robartsd is on the right track, about financial value for biking.

I have found, that there is a minimal return, if you will own and insure a vehicle anyway.   e.g., not get rid of a car that you own...

The benefit of cycling to work, financially, comes after a bit of time, and you go down to one car due to scrapping, repairs, move to a new situation, and then don't rent a replacement and you extend the time until you get another car, sometimes for a year or more....

We went from a 2-car to a 1-car household after biking.

The only way that our family has managed to stay 1 car is due to my cycling.

It gets easier the longer you do it, too. 10 miles is no longer "far." It's also much faster by bike now a few years after riding every where.

[JoRocka]

I don't commute from work anymore, but I do still bike for transport.  What I found is that it takes more time to get where I'm going, but I save time later that I'd normally use going to the gym or doing other exercise specific activities.  So for me it's not so much a cost  savings as it a time savings. 

Most people look at time biking vs time driving (40 minutes vs 20 minutes for example).  But biking can also save time because you don't have to drive to a gym (10 minutes to and from), or do "aerobic" exercise at the gym (another 30 minutes at least).  You might still go to the gym for the resistance exercise.  I started doing bodyweight exercises at home and biking everywhere, which let me drop my gym membership and still keep in shape, but it less time.  Also saved the $35 per month gym fee.

Do people think you're crazy if you take the bike to the gym?    I go to essentially a powerlifting gym. They lost their damn minds when I ran home one day.  It's only 3.5 miles LOL.  like- guys. I'm at the gym.  working out.sweating.
gotta get some fucking cardio in some how!

[mm1970]

Even if the cost of the cars you choose only decreases by a few thousand dollars because you choose to bike, it can significantly tip the scale for cost savings, with a significant bend point when the value of the car is low enough that you drop full coverage and another significant bend point where you own fewer cars. Cost of parking at work also can have a significant impact on the available savings to a bike commuter. I'm with ender on the exercise gained negating any extra time taken making all cost savings a plus with no time downside.

And that's all fine and true, but for someone who doesn't bike commute, telling them bike commuting a few days is a huge financial benefit because maybe they can go down a car is a stretch.  You're assuming a huge level of commitment from someone currently not biking at all in order to really see a return.  I could bike commute a few days a week a few months a year.  But all that really does is save me a couple bucks a day in gas and pushing out oil changes and tires a few weeks.  I cannot give up a car, because my spouse and I work in opposite directions and we share responsibility for collecting our daughter from school, which can't realistically be done via bike given the hours the school is open (I work 8:30-5:15-530 most days, and school opens at 8:10 and closes promptly at 6, it's just not reasonable to build in additional time for biking and maintain my work hours and school hours). 

Basically not bike commuting is a commitment of 0/10, commuting a few days a week in nice weather is a 2/10, and giving up one of 2 cars is an 8 or 9/10.  Most people are not going to get from 0 to 8-9, and that's where you actually get material savings.

I don't really see how you only get material savings at an 8 or 9 out of 10?  I have a pretty small car with good gas mileage.  If you estimate $0.50 per mile, the round trip 20 miles is $10 a day.  That's not nothing.

It comes out to maybe $8 a day.  I figure gas is part of it, and wear and tear.  I don't factor in insurance because I'm paying for it anyway.  Then, if you have a car that you paid $20k for, and you keep it for 200,000 miles, that's 0.10 a mile.  The less you drive it, the longer it lasts and the longer you can go before replacing it.

Now husband and I work near each other, so we used to each bike one way.  We biked a little bit after kid #2 was born.  But then it got to be logistically difficult.  Even though we have flexible enough schedules -
-Kid #1 drop-off is at 8:20, pick up is before 5:30
-Kid #2 drop-off is at 8:30 approx, pick up is before 5:30
-Kid #2 daycare is 5 miles in the opposite direction from work.

We could do it, but it lengthens the day (basically, whichever person goes in "early" bikes in and the other does dropoff.  The one that went in early does pickup and the other could bike home).

However, to work a full day, that means the person biking home would have to work until at least 6 pm, and wouldn't get home until 7 pm.  That's sort of late for dinner, and add in baseball practice and music practice to the mix...It was much easier for us to manage it when I was working part time.  It's kind of like playing calendar tetris.  And I just don't have the energy for it right now. 

This fall kid #2 is moving to a preschool that is between home and work.  The following year, we will have one GLORIOUS year of both kids in the same school.

I imagine that we'll revisit biking at that point.

[Chris22]

Even if the cost of the cars you choose only decreases by a few thousand dollars because you choose to bike, it can significantly tip the scale for cost savings, with a significant bend point when the value of the car is low enough that you drop full coverage and another significant bend point where you own fewer cars. Cost of parking at work also can have a significant impact on the available savings to a bike commuter. I'm with ender on the exercise gained negating any extra time taken making all cost savings a plus with no time downside.

And that's all fine and true, but for someone who doesn't bike commute, telling them bike commuting a few days is a huge financial benefit because maybe they can go down a car is a stretch.  You're assuming a huge level of commitment from someone currently not biking at all in order to really see a return.  I could bike commute a few days a week a few months a year.  But all that really does is save me a couple bucks a day in gas and pushing out oil changes and tires a few weeks.  I cannot give up a car, because my spouse and I work in opposite directions and we share responsibility for collecting our daughter from school, which can't realistically be done via bike given the hours the school is open (I work 8:30-5:15-530 most days, and school opens at 8:10 and closes promptly at 6, it's just not reasonable to build in additional time for biking and maintain my work hours and school hours). 

Basically not bike commuting is a commitment of 0/10, commuting a few days a week in nice weather is a 2/10, and giving up one of 2 cars is an 8 or 9/10.  Most people are not going to get from 0 to 8-9, and that's where you actually get material savings.

I don't really see how you only get material savings at an 8 or 9 out of 10?  I have a pretty small car with good gas mileage.  If you estimate $0.50 per mile, the round trip 20 miles is $10 a day.  That's not nothing.

I was talking about a scale of "commitment" where you've making a commitment of 2 versus a commitment of 8-9.  It was arbitrary, just trying to make a point.

I did have a thread though where I calculated the incremental cost of driving to be about $.18-.25 depending on how you factored depreciation.  That tells me that assuming I still own the car and just chose not to drive it it costs me about $2.50-$3.50 per day to drive versus riding.  It's mostly gas, plus a small amount of maintenance.  Insurance, registration, etc, are all a wash.   

[Northwestie]

Parking can be a big cost in cities.  Then there are more intangibles - adding to traffic, larger carbon output, and (for me) the pain in the butt of traffic and sitting on my butt when I could be getting fresh air and exercise, which also affects (my) stress level.

I get it - some folks 1) don't like biking, 2) hate exercise, 3) have chosen a lifestyle that directs them to drive, or whatever. 

But for me not having the convenience of a bike commute just would not work.

[rocklebock]

I only started bike commuting when there was a change in transit routes, such that biking would actually be faster than taking the bus (parking at work is cost-prohibitive so it's not even in the picture, and I think biking would still be faster than driving). It does not save me any money, though it might if I decided to drop my work-subsidized transit pass. For me, the point is 30 minutes of biking (even in the pouring rain) beats the hell out of 45 minutes on the bus.

[Northwestie]

I used to take the bus once in a while.  Now never.  In the winter the heat is cranked up like a sauna and there is always someone hacking away with a cold.  Akkkkk!

[Rollin]

My sedan is a ULEV (ultra low emissions vehicle) and I drive it about 15 miles a day, using about 2/3rds gallons of gas.  I'm not losing any sleep over the environmental impact of doing so.

Yeah, not much impact producing that car from limited resources. Although I did hear that there is significant resources consumed just getting that car built and to the car dealer so you could buy it and only use so little fuel. Not to mention the billions of dollars spent on roadways, crashes, death and destruction (crush bodies, etc.), etc. Good on you, you must feel great.

[Chris22]

I do, thanks.  Dramatic much?

[Metric Mouse]

I do, thanks.  Dramatic much?

:D Well said Chris22.  Maybe if you change the name of the team to "Biking Agnostic", I might sign up!

[Chris22]

I do, thanks.  Dramatic much?

:D Well said Chris22.  Maybe if you change the name of the team to "Biking Agnostic", I might sign up!

In reality, I'm actually pro-bike.  I ride all around my neighborhood with my daughter in the trailer, we ride to our little downtown area tons of summer nights to go to the park, etc.  It's just in comparison to the "OMG if you aren't moving to a place and taking a job specifically so you can ride to work no matter the weather and the time schedule and sell all your cars" crowd, I'm anti bike.

My normal evening's entertainment:

[Retire-Canada]

So does bike commuting only make sense if I want to save 3 bucks, and want to see my family slightly less? I see little downside and pretty good upside to driving.

I've had long stretches of solid bike commutes and long stretches of driving to work. When I look back at both it's not the money I saved biking that I care about [not sure I even saved any money given the extra food needed] it was the sense of well being and lower stress levels that all that extra exercise gave me that sticks out as positive.

I'm pretty sure if you asked my GF what she would rather have 1) me at home longer in the evening after driving or 2) me home less, but in better health/mood after biking...she'd pick #2.

[Tyson]

I don't commute any more, but when I did I never realized how toxic being in traffic is to the soul.  Nowadays I'll find myself in traffic every once in a while and I can feel my stress level go up.  Makes me glad I'm done with commuting.

[Scandium]

So does bike commuting only make sense if I want to save 3 bucks, and want to see my family slightly less? I see little downside and pretty good upside to driving.

I've had long stretches of solid bike commutes and long stretches of driving to work. When I look back at both it's not the money I saved biking that I care about [not sure I even saved any money given the extra food needed] it was the sense of well being and lower stress levels that all that extra exercise gave me that sticks out as positive.

I'm pretty sure if you asked my GF what she would rather have 1) me at home longer in the evening after driving or 2) me home less, but in better health/mood after biking...she'd pick #2.

A lot of people talk about biking improving their mood. My wife has been trying to push me to run or go to the gym so I'll feel better. But it doesn't really have that effect on me, and when I feel crappy I don't want to work out.. And I don't think I sweaty bikeride in 90 degree weather dodging idiots walking on the phone will do much better. Probably no worse than driving, but I don't believe I will improve my mood either.

[dandarc]

If exercise doesn't lift your mood, try working out harder.  I personally have to be totally drenched in sweat to get a noticeable runner's high - and it doesn't hit until 15 to 30 minutes after the run.

Less temporary mood improvement takes time to build up.  Working out just today isn't likely to help very noticeably, but 3X+ per week for 6 months, and now you're talking.

Nobody wants to work out when they feel crappy - do something anyway.  Cut back if you have to or adjust your schedule.

[rocklebock]

I used to take the bus once in a while.  Now never.  In the winter the heat is cranked up like a sauna and there is always someone hacking away with a cold.  Akkkkk!

I used to get bad colds every winter at least once, but usually 2-3 times a season. This past winter - nothing, not even sniffles. I have no evidence, but I totally attribute it to biking instead of being on the bus every day.

[Chris22]

If exercise doesn't lift your mood, try working out harder.  I personally have to be totally drenched in sweat to get a noticeable runner's high

Sounds like exactly what I want on my way to work.