Biggest spending category - taxes!

[tracylayton]

I was solidly liberal in HS and college and mocked Reagan mercilessly in the 80's.
In the 90's I jumped off the corporate wagon and onto a "consulting" horse.
Becoming a "1099er" meant setting aside "cash in hand money" to file my quarterly taxes and hope to hell I was setting enough aside.
It dawned on me the harder I worked, the bigger and bigger my check to the IRS became.
When I started cutting checks sometimes larger than my W2's from earlier in my career my politics started swinging conservative.
If everyone in the "taxpaying class" were switched to quarterly taxes that were not magically removed from regular paychecks I think we would see a tax revolt in this country.

I asked my sister what she and her husband paid in income tax last year, and she said I don't know...it comes out of our paychecks. She is a registered nurse, and all she knew is that they get a decent refund every year. I have to send in quarterly estimates to the IRS four times a year, so I have to personally write that big check and still usually owe more. You are a lot more aware of what you pay in taxes, when you have to physically hand that check over. I also have to write out several checks for property taxes every December...making it even more obvious how much I pay in taxes.

[GetItRight]

O.K., time to cut through the bullshit.  Although the U.S. is a low tax country compared to most other developed nations, I think most of us can agree that paying 20-25% of gross income in payroll and income taxes is a pretty sizable chunk.

Indeed it is, 25% of your working life stolen. 25% slavery essentially, for everyone not on the government dole with their hand out.

Here's where federal spending goes:

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=1258

Social security = 24%
Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP = 22%
Defense and international security = 19%
Safety net programs (i.e., welfare) = 12%
Benefits for federal retirees and veterans = 8%
Interest on the debt = 6%
Transportation/infrastructure = 3%
Science and medical research = 2%
Education = 1%
Non-security international = 1%
Everything else = 3%

So yes, working person, your taxes are high, but it's not because the government is wasting your money on research or welfare.  It's because politicians choose to give preferential treatment to the people who pay for their campaigns.

By those numbers it looks to me like the top 5 categories are completely unnecessary and would be hard pressed to justify the use of violence to fund them. It's not research, but it's mostly welfare and a large amount of warfare as well. The welfare/warfare state is detrimental to everyone as well as society as a whole.

That's 85% of the budget completely unnecessary, all that wasted time and money, stunted development, harmed and broken families, etc.. It's a shame. The rest of the spending should of course all be cut or funded in non-compulsory ways but it's easier to go after the huge high return items first.

[NoraLenderbee]

O.K., time to cut through the bullshit.  Although the U.S. is a low tax country compared to most other developed nations, I think most of us can agree that paying 20-25% of gross income in payroll and income taxes is a pretty sizable chunk.

Indeed it is, 25% of your working life stolen. 25% slavery essentially, for everyone not on the government dole with their hand out.

This is what I find objectionable--the idea that paying taxes is the same thing as theft and slavery. As if roads and sewage systems built themselves. As if it's morally OK to deny poor people medical care. As if you should get all the benefits of living in this society for free. GMAFB.

[rocketpj]

O.K., time to cut through the bullshit.  Although the U.S. is a low tax country compared to most other developed nations, I think most of us can agree that paying 20-25% of gross income in payroll and income taxes is a pretty sizable chunk.

Indeed it is, 25% of your working life stolen. 25% slavery essentially, for everyone not on the government dole with their hand out.

This is what I find objectionable--the idea that paying taxes is the same thing as theft and slavery. As if roads and sewage systems built themselves. As if it's morally OK to deny poor people medical care. As if you should get all the benefits of living in this society for free. GMAFB.

No kidding.  As if our society is magically generated without any centralized thought or planning.  Schools magically appear without taxes.  As if the money I pay in taxes that goes to pay for my kids schooling (and that of their friends) was taken from me at gunpoint.

I'm happy to pay taxes, and it isn't because I am a brainless sheeple.  It is because taxes are property and life insurance for the rich.  Go to some of the places without adequate social safety nets and wealthy people are targets for kidnapping and worse.  So they spend their money on private security instead.  No thanks.

[Norioch]

Calling taxation slavery is extremely disrespectful to victims, past and present, of actual slavery.

[Gin1984]

Calling taxation slavery is extremely disrespectful to victims, past and present, of actual slavery.

I agree!

[SaintM]

Remember, only the first 118,500 of earned income is subject to the payroll tax that funds social security and medicare.  CEOs who are earning millions a year only pay the tax on the first 118,500.  People who live off their investments pay nothing toward SS and medicare.

No, they pay an extra 3.8% in Obamacare taxes on top of the highest marginal income tax rate.  Just like income tax rates, that "low" percentage will grow over time.  In 1913, income over $250,000 (nearly $6M in today's dollars) was taxed at just 6% or 7% total.  Today, $250,000 is taxed at 43.4%.  Add state taxes and over half of their income is lost to the government before they even see it.

I really feel bad for those on this site that are plowing money into traditional IRAs, although I feel less bad for them if they vote for tax and spend Democrats.

[caliq]

I'm just wondering -- do any of you hardcore libertarian/anti-tax folks actually know anybody who relies on social services like disability or Medicaid?  As in, know them well enough to be privy to their medical/financial details?  If so, how do you reconcile this with your macro political stance? 

[Norioch]

Taxing and spending is exactly what a functional government is supposed to do. What's the alternative? Except for tyrannical governments which can compel people by direct threat of violence, governments need to spend money to operate. They can get that money by taxing, issuing new currency, or borrowing. Anyone who actually cares about the budget deficit should prefer taxation to borrowing. I consider myself incredibly fortunate to earn enough money to be in the 28% marginal tax bracket, and if I were in the higher tax brackets I'd be even better off.

[SaintM]

Most of us libertarian types prefer reduced spending in the form of reduced war, reduced government waste, reduced desire to regulate, reduced welfare, and reduced debt to service.

[Dr. Pepper]

I don't mind paying taxes, but we got a big shock this year. My wife's salary increased 50% yoy and bumped us into a different bracket, in addition many of the deductions I had used in years past no longer applied, ie child tax credit, student loan interest deduction. Total federal tax this year was 30k compared to 18k last year. At least I paid my fair share.

[The_Captain]

Last year Taxes were my third biggest expenditure after rent and food, but thanks to a pretty generous raise they may be my biggest expenses this year, which I like to think of as a sign of good things. A lot of the benefits from my taxes I'll never actually see, but I've always thought it's important to play my part in supporting a system that reduces risk for all of us. That said, I'll have to see what next year is like, because once my debts are paid off I'll be able to throw a lot more money at RRSPs which might bring my taxable back under my rent...

[RetiredAt63]

+1

For Canadian taxes, my understanding is that we pay less tax on dividend income because the company has already paid taxes before they distribute the dividend.

For a comparison, the Fraser Institute calculated tax freedom day for 2014 as June 9 for the "average" Canadian family.  It was April 21 for the "average" American family.  Wikipedia has an interesting entry on "tax freedom day" which includes a table of how many days it takes to pay your taxes before you are working for yourself.  For this blog, Australia is third lowest, then the US.  Canada is well down the table.  In between are New Zealand and the United Kingdom.  Germany, France and Norway are waaaay down.

This is not to say I don't like paying taxes - I appreciate what my taxes pay for, and am glad my retirement income is large enough that I am still paying taxes.  It does seem odd to hear Americans complaining, when their overall tax rate is relatively low.  However, I do realize that some of their living costs (medical care and higher education are the obvious ones) are much higher then ours.  Of course, some are a lot lower - food and gasoline are obvious winners.

I worry about taxes sometimes, but then my kids go to a great school with great teachers.  And my wife has a cough for 4 weeks and goes to the doctor without hesitation (we live in Canada so we get a better deal for our taxes than you folks in the US).  And I realize I live in one of the safest, cleanest, healthiest and most well educated jurisdictions on the planet, by far, and think that my tax bill is a bargain.

Not that I love paying them - I'd love to have all those things for less, and I am of the opinion that the way it gets collected (and from whom) is a bit skewed, but generally I am not too bothered by taxes.  Sure, there is some waste and we need to hold people accountable or it all breaks down, but the lockstep 'all taxes=baaaad' mantra of much of our media and Conservative politicians is a hopeless oversimplification of a necessarily complex topic.

[GetItRight]

O.K., time to cut through the bullshit.  Although the U.S. is a low tax country compared to most other developed nations, I think most of us can agree that paying 20-25% of gross income in payroll and income taxes is a pretty sizable chunk.

Indeed it is, 25% of your working life stolen. 25% slavery essentially, for everyone not on the government dole with their hand out.

This is what I find objectionable--the idea that paying taxes is the same thing as theft and slavery.

Taxes are slavery, it is stealing your earnings, your labor, your time, at gunpoint. Consider yourself a free range slave, in that you get to choose the work you do to benefit someone else. You are livestock for your government, they just figured out that they get more yield if they allow the slave to choose  labor that interests it.

As if roads and sewage systems built themselves.

No, generally they are build by private individuals and contractors hired by the government and paid with stolen money which the government slices a large chunk off the top to line their own pockets. As if roads never existed and would not continue to exist without government.

As if it's morally OK to deny poor people medical care.

You do not have positive rights, only negative rights. Positive rights, such as the "right" to medical care requires you take something from others (theft), be it their property of their time, which is one and the same if you recognize that a man owns his body and the fruits of his labor. Negative rights only require that others do not interfere with, or take from another. You cannot have both positive and negative rights as any positive right infringes upon negative rights. If we recognize negative rights then there can be no positive rights as the "right" to madical care would have to be a voluntary agreement, be it trade or charity.

As if you should get all the benefits of living in this society for free. GMAFB.

I don't want to steal from others, and I don't wnat others to steal from me. With all your "as if" statements you seem to be making a lot of assumptions in this post.

[GetItRight]

No kidding.  As if our society is magically generated without any centralized thought or planning.  Schools magically appear without taxes.  As if the money I pay in taxes that goes to pay for my kids schooling (and that of their friends) was taken from me at gunpoint.

Plenty of private schools are not on the government dole. At least in the area I live private schools cost about half as much as government school per student, have better teacher to student ratios, and students perform better and learn more. There are also other private schools in the area that cater to mentally challenged and developmentally disabled kids that seem to do a much better job of getting these kids to a point where they can function in society in some capacity. It is a stark difference to the government school method of push them through, threaten and punish as much as required, and get them out the doors either into crime or onto the welfare handout dole for life.

As for nobody taking your taxes at gunpoint, opt out of paying those taxes and see what happens. Men with gun will come to cage you and steal your property, if you resist they will kill you. It's just like mob "protection money" except the mob, being a private organization with limited size and scope, actually has an incentive to protect those they extort money from.

[GetItRight]

Calling taxation slavery is extremely disrespectful to victims, past and present, of actual slavery.

Could you explain that in more detail how that is disrespectful to victims of slavery? Which victims? I'll venture a guess that you are referring to slavery in the United States as that is where the majority of this forums members seem to be. Slavery in the US was a government institution, forced on the masses by government and was not economically viable without government enforcement (laws, forced slave patrols, returning freed slaves, navies to escort and protect slave ships importing from foreign lands, etc.). If slave owners had to pay the full cost it would have been cheaper to hire people and mechanization and automation would have taken off far earlier.

Slavery in the US was a government institution, they've just figured that human livestock are more profitable if you allow them to choose their own labor, their own place to live, and allow them to keep a portion of what they earn.

[Gin1984]

Calling taxation slavery is extremely disrespectful to victims, past and present, of actual slavery.

Could you explain that in more detail how that is disrespectful to victims of slavery? Which victims? I'll venture a guess that you are referring to slavery in the United States as that is where the majority of this forums members seem to be. Slavery in the US was a government institution, forced on the masses by government and was not economically viable without government enforcement (laws, forced slave patrols, returning freed slaves, navies to escort and protect slave ships importing from foreign lands, etc.). If slave owners had to pay the full cost it would have been cheaper to hire people and mechanization and automation would have taken off far earlier.

Slavery in the US was a government institution, they've just figured that human livestock are more profitable if you allow them to choose their own labor, their own place to live, and allow them to keep a portion of what they earn.

People were killed, beaten, raped, removed from the families, lost culture, from slavery, none of which happens as an employee. 

[Capsu78]

Calling taxation slavery is extremely disrespectful to victims, past and present, of actual slavery.

Could you explain that in more detail how that is disrespectful to victims of slavery? Which victims? I'll venture a guess that you are referring to slavery in the United States as that is where the majority of this forums members seem to be. Slavery in the US was a government institution, forced on the masses by government and was not economically viable without government enforcement (laws, forced slave patrols, returning freed slaves, navies to escort and protect slave ships importing from foreign lands, etc.). If slave owners had to pay the full cost it would have been cheaper to hire people and mechanization and automation would have taken off far earlier.

Slavery in the US was a government institution, they've just figured that human livestock are more profitable if you allow them to choose their own labor, their own place to live, and allow them to keep a portion of what they earn.

People were killed, beaten, raped, removed from the families, lost culture, from slavery, none of which happens as an employee.

Sorta like ISIS just last week...

[GetItRight]

I'm just wondering -- do any of you hardcore libertarian/anti-tax folks actually know anybody who relies on social services like disability or Medicaid?  As in, know them well enough to be privy to their medical/financial details?  If so, how do you reconcile this with your macro political stance?

Yes, I have known many socially or in passing and I have known a few as close friends or extended family. Growing up poor with a single mother living in various poor neighborhoods I am familiar with the results of the welfare state. Most are perfectly capable of working, and do in fact work from time to time but won't hold down a job long term or earn more. It's easier to get on welfare and work a bit when needed (usually under the table). Big TVs and expensive cable packages are ubiquitous among those on welfare and indicative of the rest of their poor financial decisions. For others it's drugs and alcohol. Getting a windfall, which could be a few hundred or a few thousand (one example of a windfall is a tax refund) means a new car, new TV or video game, or maybe just the status quo but not working for a while.

Unemployment is an opportunity to sit back and relax, go fishing, drink beer and watch TV all day, do hobbies, or generally do whatever leisure activity they want and of course get some under the table work as needed but never take another job on the books until unemployment dries up. Unemployment pays as much or sometimes more than whatever jobs are readily available without applying oneself too much. I have offered jobs where I work to these people as well as offering to pay them for odd jobs for myself and never had any take me up on it as they have preferred to sit around and do nothing as long as the gravy train is flowing.

SO's parents have both been on welfare for decades... Father is genuinely disabled with a medical condition that limits mobility. Since being on the welfare dole he has worked some jobs under the table to get extra money without risk of losing welfare moneys. His wife claims to have mental health issues as well as physical issues (obese) and is in a constant state of intoxication from the drugs government buys her (subsidizing both her doing nothing and big pharma too). She did work various low income/low effort/part time jobs previously but I believe that was a long time ago. All "extra" money goes to children and grandchildren to buy them cigarettes/alcohol/drugs as well as phones, clothes and food. These "kids" (all adults) bounce in and out of their home and are all ungrateful, some steal money and anything of value that can be sold quick.

In her family it seems like the victim/entitlement mentality is passed from one generation to the next. Her father is the only one that actually has a legitimate inability to work and he did work in his younger years. He could certainly work in some capacity but it wouldn't be enough alone and would disqualify him from welfare so he won't do it. Most of the rest of the family just has excuses that they can't do things because it's difficult or stressful, so they never try. Easier to mooch off the welfare state directly, or indirectly through the parents who enable.

I don't see what there is to reconcile about any of this. Aggressive violence is unethical and an infringement upon an individuals rights, it is never acceptable. All of these people rely on stolen money from a gang of thieves. I can't fault them much as they're just maximizing value to themselves within the system government sets up, but when they get cut off eventually they'll have to do something else. Those who choose to live their life such as to minimize work and maximize government handouts will do just fine as they always seem to find work and make enough to get by whenever the gravy train slows down. Others, maybe not but that does not entitle them to steal some percent of my life. When the time comes I will not be helping the in laws financially as even on welfare they had excess and chose to use that to subsidize and enable their other kids and family to be unemployed drug addicts and help them get on the welfare dole. If government did not steal money from me at gunpoint I would consider being more generous when the time comes. As long as there is compulsory income tax and the welfare state I will not give any charity either to relatives or strangers.

[caliq]

I'm just wondering -- do any of you hardcore libertarian/anti-tax folks actually know anybody who relies on social services like disability or Medicaid?  As in, know them well enough to be privy to their medical/financial details?  If so, how do you reconcile this with your macro political stance?

Yes, I have known many socially or in passing and I have known a few as close friends or extended family. Growing up poor with a single mother living in various poor neighborhoods I am familiar with the results of the welfare state. Most are perfectly capable of working, and do in fact work from time to time but won't hold down a job long term or earn more. It's easier to get on welfare and work a bit when needed (usually under the table). Big TVs and expensive cable packages are ubiquitous among those on welfare and indicative of the rest of their poor financial decisions. For others it's drugs and alcohol. Getting a windfall, which could be a few hundred or a few thousand (one example of a windfall is a tax refund) means a new car, new TV or video game, or maybe just the status quo but not working for a while.

Unemployment is an opportunity to sit back and relax, go fishing, drink beer and watch TV all day, do hobbies, or generally do whatever leisure activity they want and of course get some under the table work as needed but never take another job on the books until unemployment dries up. Unemployment pays as much or sometimes more than whatever jobs are readily available without applying oneself too much. I have offered jobs where I work to these people as well as offering to pay them for odd jobs for myself and never had any take me up on it as they have preferred to sit around and do nothing as long as the gravy train is flowing.

SO's parents have both been on welfare for decades... Father is genuinely disabled with a medical condition that limits mobility. Since being on the welfare dole he has worked some jobs under the table to get extra money without risk of losing welfare moneys. His wife claims to have mental health issues as well as physical issues (obese) and is in a constant state of intoxication from the drugs government buys her (subsidizing both her doing nothing and big pharma too). She did work various low income/low effort/part time jobs previously but I believe that was a long time ago. All "extra" money goes to children and grandchildren to buy them cigarettes/alcohol/drugs as well as phones, clothes and food. These "kids" (all adults) bounce in and out of their home and are all ungrateful, some steal money and anything of value that can be sold quick.

In her family it seems like the victim/entitlement mentality is passed from one generation to the next. Her father is the only one that actually has a legitimate inability to work and he did work in his younger years. He could certainly work in some capacity but it wouldn't be enough alone and would disqualify him from welfare so he won't do it. Most of the rest of the family just has excuses that they can't do things because it's difficult or stressful, so they never try. Easier to mooch off the welfare state directly, or indirectly through the parents who enable.

I don't see what there is to reconcile about any of this. Aggressive violence is unethical and an infringement upon an individuals rights, it is never acceptable. All of these people rely on stolen money from a gang of thieves. I can't fault them much as they're just maximizing value to themselves within the system government sets up, but when they get cut off eventually they'll have to do something else. Those who choose to live their life such as to minimize work and maximize government handouts will do just fine as they always seem to find work and make enough to get by whenever the gravy train slows down. Others, maybe not but that does not entitle them to steal some percent of my life. When the time comes I will not be helping the in laws financially as even on welfare they had excess and chose to use that to subsidize and enable their other kids and family to be unemployed drug addicts and help them get on the welfare dole. If government did not steal money from me at gunpoint I would consider being more generous when the time comes. As long as there is compulsory income tax and the welfare state I will not give any charity either to relatives or strangers.

Well, you clearly have very strong opinions on this subject and based on the fact that you've gone through this entire thread and responded to every post you disagree with, I don't think anything I or anyone else can say to you will change them.  I am sorry that your wife's family is so dysfunctional and that having to deal with people like that has colored your opinion of an entire subset of the population.

I don't agree with you, and honestly am rather personally offended by your assumption that everyone receiving any type of transfer payment from the government is a worthless freeloader.  I'm sure my disabled Marine husband would really have some strong words for you on that subject.  But, there's a rather strong undercurrent of your mentality (though less extreme) in this forum as a whole, which is a big reason I haven't started a journal -- I don't really want my decision to buy anything above and beyond lentils and rice to be criticized and questioned by those who think they have any right to make assumptions about my life or choices, just because they, in some abstract way, are technically paying part of my grocery bill. 

[GetItRight]

Calling taxation slavery is extremely disrespectful to victims, past and present, of actual slavery.

Could you explain that in more detail how that is disrespectful to victims of slavery? Which victims? I'll venture a guess that you are referring to slavery in the United States as that is where the majority of this forums members seem to be. Slavery in the US was a government institution, forced on the masses by government and was not economically viable without government enforcement (laws, forced slave patrols, returning freed slaves, navies to escort and protect slave ships importing from foreign lands, etc.). If slave owners had to pay the full cost it would have been cheaper to hire people and mechanization and automation would have taken off far earlier.

Slavery in the US was a government institution, they've just figured that human livestock are more profitable if you allow them to choose their own labor, their own place to live, and allow them to keep a portion of what they earn.

People were killed, beaten, raped, removed from the families, lost culture, from slavery, none of which happens as an employee.

We are discussing slavery, not a voluntary arrangement such as employment. I am guessing that Norioch was referring to government slavery primarily in early America as type of direct slavery or possibly or previous government implementations of slavery, vs a partial or indirect free range slavery such as currently exists in America.

The current slave owners certainly don't kill, beat, rape, remove from families, etc... (note sarcasm)

People were killed,

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20100517/METRO01/5170340/Family-grieves-death-of-girl--7--in-police-raid
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/335957f8540e4dc189869a9ce841de0b/boy-fake-gun-dies-after-shot-ohio-officer
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95475
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/10/08/1335146/-59-year-old-Georgia-man-killed-in-no-knock-raid-no-drugs-found
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/police-kill-unarmed-man-doorstep-brought-dinner-family/
http://www3.alternet.org/drugs/10-shocking-examples-police-killing-innocent-people-war-drugs
http://www.innocentdown.org/

beaten,

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/27645689/ft-bend-police-prosecutors-accused-of-abuse-in-swat-incident
https://www.victoriaadvocate.com/news/2014/dec/13/victoria-police-officer-investigated-for-tasing-dr/
http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/santiago-hernandez-nypd/
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cops-beat-wives-girlfriends-double-national-rate-receive-promotions/
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/07/us/california-police-videotape-beating/
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cops-beat-man-7-month-pregnant-wife-deleted-video-survived-cloud/
http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/cops-beat-woman-filming-another-beating

raped,

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/fla-month-rapes-woman-patrol-car-hood-cops-article-1.1994103
http://rt.com/usa/handcuffed-immigrant-police-rape-465/
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/01/29/she-dialed-911-the-cop-who-came-to-help-raped-her.html
http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/federal-case-against-fired-officer-goes-to-jury-d73p0jt-137110398.html
http://www.koco.com/news/16-charges-against-oklahoma-city-police-officer-include-rape-burglary/27796126#!bNeMZa
http://www.nj.com/monmouth/index.ssf/2012/11/former_cop_sentenced_judge_cites_utterly_hideous_actions.html
http://www.policemisconduct.net/2010-q3-national-police-misconduct-statistical-report/

removed from the families,

http://www.wptv.com/news/state/arnold-abbott-90-year-old-arrested-for-feeding-the-homeless-in-fort-lauderdale
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Foster-mom-says-shes-willing-to-lose-infant-over-flu-shot-mandate-288001051.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/medical-marijuana-laws-in-minnesota-could-land-mom-in-jail-for-2-years/
http://reason.com/reasontv/2015/01/06/detained-for-19-days-immigration-checkpo
http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/troubleshooters/Mom-Defends-Daughters-Choice-to-Deny-Chemotherapy-287393141.html
http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-population-total?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All
https://www.facebook.com/justiceforalexhill/info?tab=page_info

[GetItRight]

Well, you clearly have very strong opinions on this subject and based on the fact that you've gone through this entire thread and responded to every post you disagree with, I don't think anything I or anyone else can say to you will change them.  I am sorry that your wife's family is so dysfunctional and that having to deal with people like that has colored your opinion of an entire subset of the population.

I don't agree with you, and honestly am rather personally offended by your assumption that everyone receiving any type of transfer payment from the government is a worthless freeloader.  I'm sure my disabled Marine husband would really have some strong words for you on that subject.  But, there's a rather strong undercurrent of your mentality (though less extreme) in this forum as a whole, which is a big reason I haven't started a journal -- I don't really want my decision to buy anything above and beyond lentils and rice to be criticized and questioned by those who think they have any right to make assumptions about my life or choices, just because they, in some abstract way, are technically paying part of my grocery bill.

Yes it is a shame about her family. Some like her either got away from it when they could and others hung around and got into the victim and entitlement mentality. My experiences are not limited to just her family though, as I said I grew up in poor neighborhoods with a single mother so I have seen all sorts of poor people on welfare. Most choose that life and actively refuse any opportunities to earn more and better themselves or their families as it means they'll get less for "free" from the government or get cut off entirely. It's a choice, but it's hard to fault people for their choices in an extortionate and violent system they cannot change. Some choose that life because of how government has driven up the cost of medical care through the roof and outlawed charity and they may have medical conditions they couldn't, others choose it because they're lazy, others for reasons only they know, but none are wrong given the current system forced upon us. I can only fault them when they advocate and vote for more government theft, as that is just outsourcing their violence so the government will do the dirty work of theft and extortion that these people would never do themselves to random individuals.

Sorry to hear about your situation with your husband having become disabled. Though some would put you out to hang for anything more luxurious than rice and beans I certainly would not. It's not your fault you have to live in the system government sets up. You make your choices under duress in a rigged system, as government uses aggressive violence to crush reasonable and voluntary alternatives. I dislike when hardcore conservative or neocon types rail against those on welfare. If the government didn't steal that money and give some of it to those on welfare, they wouldn't be in that situation.

[abhe8]

O.K., time to cut through the bullshit.  Although the U.S. is a low tax country compared to most other developed nations, I think most of us can agree that paying 20-25% of gross income in payroll and income taxes is a pretty sizable chunk.

Indeed it is, 25% of your working life stolen. 25% slavery essentially, for everyone not on the government dole with their hand out.

This is what I find objectionable--the idea that paying taxes is the same thing as theft and slavery. As if roads and sewage systems built themselves. As if it's morally OK to deny poor people medical care. As if you should get all the benefits of living in this society for free. GMAFB.

Um, they could just charge for those things. Think toll roads and price tags, on your xray or your amoxicillin or your use of the public toilet. We would get better services for less money. Win!

[libertarian4321]

I generally get what I pay for and then some so I don't complain.

If you ever spent one day working in any Federal government agency, you'd know that isn't true. 

The inefficiency, waste, and general stupidity involved in the Federal government goat screw would be comical if it weren't so sad.

I don't know if State and local government are as bad, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were.

[gaja]

Taxes aren't really "spending".  It's not like you went out and bought a basket or a box of taxes.  People who bitch about taxes are the ones who never notice the roads they drive on, the streetlights which illuminate their neighbourhood, the snowplow which allows them to get to work, and they're the first who would call the fire department or police in an emergency.  ...And it's the reason lots of places had to cut city water purification systems and now the people buy bottled water.  Yeah, that's a smart move--get your taxes lowered $100 a year and now you have to buy $400 a year in bottled water for life.

I have estimated that, based on the last ten years, my family has recieved several hundred thousand more in medical care, education, etc, than we have paid in taxes. I'm planning to make a spreadsheet and start a downpayment plan. As a start, I'm reporting all income (also passive income) as normal income, and I don't take deductions for stock and dividents.

The new right wing government threw a wrench in my payback schedule by lowering the income taxes. I'll be fighting hard to get them thrown out of office in 2017.

[PatStab]

My husband has and is working in some of those countries with no taxes.  They live in compounds, are not allowed to drive, furnished drivers, satellite phones.  They have to know where they are all the time and watch out for them.  They do not go out at night.

There is no health care, food for people, no sewage systems, you should see the crap running down the middle of the "streets".  You wouldn't get near it for the diseases carried in it.  He has every vaccine known to man I think and takes anti malarial drugs.  It's hot there but they are not allowed to wear short sleeved shirts.  The only people in the country that gets on those projects are ones that have influence.  He is supposed to be helping train their people but some don't bother to come to work.  The corruption is so rampant this project has bee shut down several times before because the money gets siphoned off by all those touching it till nothing is left to pay for it with.

There is no law enforcement as such at least like we know.  In one country they were told DO NOT stop in front of the palace or you could be shot, do not take pictures or you could be shot.

I wish many of you black or white had the opportunity to live in some of these no tax utopias.  Oh they make sure he has an exit visa before he goes in, no one stays over, they make sure you don't.  I don't know who would want to anyway.

One thing you need to understand, get ready to pay more taxes.  The less living wage jobs we have in this country the more the welfare sector will have to be funded.  If you don't there will be anarchy as people will only starve so long.  That's why the African countries are overthrown all the time.  People will eventually fight back.  So push for a legislature that works in our interest instead of the rich, do things to get them to pay taxes, big industry is paying less and less all the time.  Get them to bring back jobs or tax the hell out of the imports so they are encouraged to have jobs here or you are going to face a very bad future.  I am much older then most of you.  I had relatives that indeed did work and were paid in script where the only place they could use it was the company store.  They were born in the late 1800's and I learned so much from them about the labor movement.  My great aunts mother was alive in the civil war, very hard for me to believe but true.  Like I said my side of the family was long lived.

[Unique User]

When my taxes look like this at the end of the year, it makes me nauseous.  When I hear Democrats whine about closing "loopholes" on any possible break imaginable, it makes me want to scream.

Because so many of the truly ridiculous ones apply to you?  Like private equity and hedge fund managers that get to treat their income as capital gains and pay the 15% gains rate?  Or NASCAR being able to write down their cost of buildings and equipment at the greatly shortened seven year period rather than 39 years like most other categories?  Or allowing companies that misbehave to write off their fines/punitive damages as a business expense?  Or being able to write off the interest on a yacht loan? Or classifying your corporate jet as security so you don't have to pay taxes on that perk?  Or the ridiculous last in, first out corporate accounting smoke and mirror trick?  The one most of us use 401k deductions, mortgage interest deductions aren't the ones that politicians whine about.  And Republicans seem to be pretty darn good at spending money also, they just hide it behind whining about mythical welfare queens.  I'll legally do what I can to reduce my taxes, but I count myself lucky to have been born here.     

[waltworks]

Dude, between the home office deduction and the self-employed 401k (knock $52k off your taxable income every year...), plus a tIRA of course, if you are paying any income taxes at all as a self employed person it's because you are either too stupid to read the tax code, or you make so much money you should be retired already. Yeah, you have to pay FICA and SS. Boo hoo. My total tax burden as a self employed person is MUCH lower than an equivalently salaried W2 employee, because of all the stuff I can write off and the huge advantage in running my own retirement program.

-W

I received my last W-2 16 years ago, entering into the world of 1099s (and small business taxes). I've never understood how anyone who is self-employed or a small business owner is not staunchly conservative.

[NoraLenderbee]

O.K., time to cut through the bullshit.  Although the U.S. is a low tax country compared to most other developed nations, I think most of us can agree that paying 20-25% of gross income in payroll and income taxes is a pretty sizable chunk.

Indeed it is, 25% of your working life stolen. 25% slavery essentially, for everyone not on the government dole with their hand out.

This is what I find objectionable--the idea that paying taxes is the same thing as theft and slavery.

Taxes are slavery, it is stealing your earnings, your labor, your time, at gunpoint. Consider yourself a free range slave, in that you get to choose the work you do to benefit someone else. You are livestock for your government, they just figured out that they get more yield if they allow the slave to choose  labor that interests it.

As if roads and sewage systems built themselves.

No, generally they are build by private individuals and contractors hired by the government and paid with stolen money which the government slices a large chunk off the top to line their own pockets. As if roads never existed and would not continue to exist without government.

As if it's morally OK to deny poor people medical care.

You do not have positive rights, only negative rights. Positive rights, such as the "right" to medical care requires you take something from others (theft), be it their property of their time, which is one and the same if you recognize that a man owns his body and the fruits of his labor. Negative rights only require that others do not interfere with, or take from another. You cannot have both positive and negative rights as any positive right infringes upon negative rights. If we recognize negative rights then there can be no positive rights as the "right" to madical care would have to be a voluntary agreement, be it trade or charity.

As if you should get all the benefits of living in this society for free. GMAFB.

I don't want to steal from others, and I don't wnat others to steal from me. With all your "as if" statements you seem to be making a lot of assumptions in this post.

We disagree fundamentally on whether taxation is theft and slavery. I don't see any point continuing the discussion, since we are not going to change one another's minds.

[CDP45]

Imagine if restaurants were banned, and only a government version of McDonald's existed, and 5% of our income went to the burger tax, and I said, I wish I could have a burrito. Then all the government brainwashed supporters chime in saying, "hey, there's calories in those hamburgers and if these McDonald's weren't here then there could be no other conceivable option of restaurant! Those burgers are consistent and reliable, and the rich and the poor can access this service, so it's fair, and you want to take burgers out of the hands of starving children if you suggest any change to this scheme because you must be a raging narcissist libertarian. Just because the burgers cost the gov $237/ea is no matter because we only pay $42 at the counter when out number is called. And don't be a selfish jerk and forget to buss your table else receive a $139 fine and have your McDonald's license revoked."

[cbgg]

I worry about taxes sometimes, but then my kids go to a great school with great teachers.  And my wife has a cough for 4 weeks and goes to the doctor without hesitation (we live in Canada so we get a better deal for our taxes than you folks in the US).  And I realize I live in one of the safest, cleanest, healthiest and most well educated jurisdictions on the planet, by far, and think that my tax bill is a bargain.

Not that I love paying them - I'd love to have all those things for less, and I am of the opinion that the way it gets collected (and from whom) is a bit skewed, but generally I am not too bothered by taxes.  Sure, there is some waste and we need to hold people accountable or it all breaks down, but the lockstep 'all taxes=baaaad' mantra of much of our media and Conservative politicians is a hopeless oversimplification of a necessarily complex topic.

Ditto.  I enjoy things like transportation infrastructure, law & order, public schools, parks, healthcare, and - heck - even social safety nets for those who need them.  Do I want the government to use my money efficiently?  Of course.  Will I maximize tax havens that I'm allowed?  Sure.  But I don't get my panties in a bunch over paying my share. 

[RetiredAt63]

General comment/question - where the poster's country can be identified, those of us from Canada/Aus//NZ/EU seem to be relatively OK with our taxes and value the services they provide, whereas those in the US are much more divided in their comments, and the big unhappiness seems to be in the US.  Yet people in the US generally pay much less income tax, so they are complaining more about less.  I don't understand this.  Does anyone have any insights/explanation for this dichotomy?

[Kris]

General comment/question - where the poster's country can be identified, those of us from Canada/Aus//NZ/EU seem to be relatively OK with our taxes and value the services they provide, whereas those in the US are much more divided in their comments, and the big unhappiness seems to be in the US.  Yet people in the US generally pay much less income tax, so they are complaining more about less.  I don't understand this.  Does anyone have any insights/explanation for this dichotomy?

Cynical politicization by politicians who use the issue to sow misplaced anger at the shortcomings of the political system, so they can pass legislation that does less for people and still trick them into believing their difficulties are the other party's doing.

[JohnnyDollar]

General comment/question - where the poster's country can be identified, those of us from Canada/Aus//NZ/EU seem to be relatively OK with our taxes and value the services they provide, whereas those in the US are much more divided in their comments, and the big unhappiness seems to be in the US.  Yet people in the US generally pay much less income tax, so they are complaining more about less.  I don't understand this.  Does anyone have any insights/explanation for this dichotomy?

Speaking as an American, I think a larger percentage of our population takes a "yay-me, screw-you" approach to life.  Perhaps this is also true in the regions you mentioned, but they're better at hiding it?  Or perhaps our zealots are just more zealous, fueled by internet attention, political babble and media's glorification of violence?  If it bleeds, it reads...

I imagine any finance board is going to attract a share of virulently anti-whatever posters, but Libertarian/anarchist zealots usually make me chuckle sadly.  They put me in mind of Ambrose Bierce's definition of piracy:  "Commerce without its folly-swaddles, just as God made it."  The catch, so to speak, is that piracy sucks if you're on the wrong end of the cutlass.

For all we as a nation romanticize our "lawless, wild west" and its attendant need/justification to own and operate weapons as part of daily life... I can't help but think folks would like the vision of being wild, armed, free, and independent less if, in their heads, they actually lost those contests-of-arms.

[Capsu78]

I toured the London Tower and complimented a Beefeater on it's tremendous historical value.  He replied "Well, Yank, for want of paying your taxes, this could have been your history too!"

[KCM5]

General comment/question - where the poster's country can be identified, those of us from Canada/Aus//NZ/EU seem to be relatively OK with our taxes and value the services they provide, whereas those in the US are much more divided in their comments, and the big unhappiness seems to be in the US.  Yet people in the US generally pay much less income tax, so they are complaining more about less.  I don't understand this.  Does anyone have any insights/explanation for this dichotomy?

I also wonder how much it depends on the perceived value of the taxes that we pay. Perhaps if our government spent less money of things we are less likely to see (eg, the myriad dying defense projects) and more on things that we see daily (single payer healthcare? more funding for higher education or public transportation?) there would be less complaining. Not that I think the people complaining about taxes would like these suggestions in general, but maybe that attitude would be less likely to develop if our social programs were more up to par.

[CDP45]

The problem can always be broken down to efficiency, but what is troubling is the resistance so many have to examining government waste. I guess good enough is the enemy of better and yes we have it great, but so does a 60yr old with $1.5mm in savings who says well just 5 more years working this job I hate (bogleheads..).

There's an unquestioned assumption about government efficiency and intentions. Yet there are endless examples of unfathomable waste and harm done to citizens, and due to the false assumption that we enjoy this lifestyle because of government, any critique of waste is met with calls of anathema.

This MMM website is meant to showus up into questioning our assumptions, the way things are now, to improve! Of course anyone can just say I like my life so nope I will consider no different action.

Think about it.


Also,  what percentage of calls does a firefighter respond to that involve fires? Should it be most of them? http://www.ocregister.com/taxdollars/strong-478777-fire-ocregister.html   

[Gin1984]

The problem can always be broken down to efficiency, but what is troubling is the resistance so many have to examining government waste. I guess good enough is the enemy of better and yes we have it great, but so does a 60yr old with $1.5mm in savings who says well just 5 more years working this job I hate (bogleheads..).

There's an unquestioned assumption about government efficiency and intentions. Yet there are endless examples of unfathomable waste and harm done to citizens, and due to the false assumption that we enjoy this lifestyle because of government, any critique of waste is met with calls of anathema.

This MMM website is meant to showus up into questioning our assumptions, the way things are now, to improve! Of course anyone can just say I like my life so nope I will consider no different action.

Think about it.


Also,  what percentage of calls does a firefighter respond to that involve fires? Should it be most of them? http://www.ocregister.com/taxdollars/strong-478777-fire-ocregister.html

Actually no, it should not be.  They are cross trained in first aid and they are sent out on calls that may need imminent assistance.  Part of the problem is that we privatized ambulances.

[Capsu78]

The mission creep of our governmental agencies at all levels- Federal, state and local- is another problem that stands out in my mind.  The Center for Disease Control getting funding for study of "life style choices", yet appearing clueless or at least "not responsible" for our Ebola response or Measles outbreak. The Department of education mandating "mandates" on issues that should be decided locally. Being the main "Uncle Sugar"  of the United Nations, which is filled with parties that are neither United or actually openly cheer for our demise.
But when one brings up those issues, the debate predictably gets flipped to the debater - How can you let children starve? and other dishonest discourse. 

[waltworks]

I'm happy to examine all those things, but in return, I ask for a sense of perspective: almost the entire budget is Medicare/Social Security/Defense:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/2/2b/20150205015819!U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2011.png

So while I'm happy to talk about inefficiency, bringing in the UN, or foreign aid, or the research budget, dept. of education etc, just ain't on the radar until you deal with the 80+% of the budget that has nothing to do with those things, because they are quite literally rounding errors in that context.

Talk to me about the big stuff and how you want to cut it, and how you'll convince the voters it's a good idea. So far nobody has managed to get elected promising to cut granny's checks or let veterans die waiting for care (the DOD's biggest expense is...  you guessed it - healthcare).

-W

The mission creep of our governmental agencies at all levels- Federal, state and local- is another problem that stands out in my mind.  The Center for Disease Control getting funding for study of "life style choices", yet appearing clueless or at least "not responsible" for our Ebola response or Measles outbreak. The Department of education mandating "mandates" on issues that should be decided locally. Being the main "Uncle Sugar"  of the United Nations, which is filled with parties that are neither United or actually openly cheer for our demise.
But when one brings up those issues, the debate predictably gets flipped to the debater - How can you let children starve? and other dishonest discourse.

[Capsu78]

Seems others not typically in the core "taxpayer complainers" demographic are complaining today too:
http://www.michellesmirror.com/2015/02/who-dealt-this-mess-anyway.html#.VONmME10yUk

...and more of those anti tax "don't want to pay my fair share" folks found here:
 http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/21218/

[waltworks]

I agree with that blog's author that the ACA is terrible legislation. Medicare for all!

-W

Seems others not typically in the core "taxpayer complainers" demographic are complaining today too:
http://www.michellesmirror.com/2015/02/who-dealt-this-mess-anyway.html#.VONmME10yUk

[RetiredAt63]

Well, mission creep happens - we just had an article in the Ottawa Citizen by Lester B. Pearson's Grand-daughter (he was Prime Minister in 1963).  Those were heady days - new flag (our OWN flag! February 16, then coming up on 100 years of Confederation), safety networks (CPP, health care), fights with the US over foreign policy (can't think of two heads of state less alike than LBP and LBJ, and one had the Nobel Peace Prize).  So in a sense our government had mission creep, and it could be argued that some were provincial domain (health care is provincial, the feds just set out national guidelines and give supporting money).  But now these are some of our most cherished social institutions.

Sometimes it is just making tough choices.  CPP pension contributions and payout schedules were changed a few years ago, and its financing is arm's length from the government, so payouts today are made from investment income, not from the payments of those far from retirement - in other words, it is not a Ponzi scheme, and my CPP pension is a pension I earned, not a handout from working Canadians.

And examining assumptions - oh yes.  We all have them, and sometimes names promote them.  The Conservatives (or should that be the Harper^TM government?) have just as bad a spending record as the Liberals - it was a Liberal Finance Minister (Paul Martin) who got the deficit and debt down, but Conservative sounds like they should be conservative about money.  Money, no.  Reading party policies (we have 5 who actually elect members, Conservative, NDP, Liberal, Bloc Quebecois [only in Quebec], and Green), who are the most fiscally conservative?  The Green Party!

Life is interesting and educational when you get past the obvious.

[Capsu78]

Retiredat63,
This has zero to do with the thread but one of my childhood memories is my uncle taking me over to the base of the Skylon tower to see PET speak!  Second comment is the previous flag actually told a story of the founding of Canada, much the same way as Austrailia and NZ does- the current one less so...I like it and have Canadian roots as well as surname, so I am pro Canadian on most issues not involving Olympic hockey :-)

[PatStab]

We don't mind paying taxes, its what keeps the services in place so we can continue with a civilized society. Savings is one of our biggest expenses not taxes.

We may have to rely on the government eventually to care for our daughter when our money runs out so I hope those services, pitiful though they are, are still in place.

You never know what you might need before you die.

[Kaspian]

General comment/question - where the poster's country can be identified, those of us from Canada/Aus//NZ/EU seem to be relatively OK with our taxes and value the services they provide, whereas those in the US are much more divided in their comments, and the big unhappiness seems to be in the US.  Yet people in the US generally pay much less income tax, so they are complaining more about less.  I don't understand this.  Does anyone have any insights/explanation for this dichotomy?

I think it's because the very foundation of the country was built on hating taxes.  It was the main (only real) reason for the American Revolution--"No taxation without representation", the Boston Tea Party, and all that stuff.  The gun lovin' which the rest of the world thinks is crazy also comes from the same historical event.  As for slavery?  Whole lotta crazy going on in this thread!!

[CDP45]

Also,  what percentage of calls does a firefighter respond to that involve fires? Should it be most of them? http://www.ocregister.com/taxdollars/strong-478777-fire-ocregister.html

Actually no, it should not be.  They are cross trained in first aid and they are sent out on calls that may need imminent assistance.  Part of the problem is that we privatized ambulances.

Right, we should nationalize ambulances just like they did in Britain: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/10150635/Patients-facing-eight-hour-waits-in-ambulances-outside-AandE-departments.html

[Capsu78]

In Ireland, taxi's are considered part of the medical emergency "rapid response team":

http://www.thejournal.ie/ambulances-prime-time-1385569-Mar2014/

Just hope you don't feel chest pains when it's raining outside and a cabbie can choose to respond to your 911 call and wait 6 weeks to get his fare reimbursed at highly discounted rates- or choose to park outside of the pub at closing time for a full fare and maybe a healthy tip on top of it.

"If you like your taxi company, you can keep your taxi company..."

[Monkey Uncle]

General comment/question - where the poster's country can be identified, those of us from Canada/Aus//NZ/EU seem to be relatively OK with our taxes and value the services they provide, whereas those in the US are much more divided in their comments, and the big unhappiness seems to be in the US.  Yet people in the US generally pay much less income tax, so they are complaining more about less.  I don't understand this.  Does anyone have any insights/explanation for this dichotomy?

I'm guessing single payer health care (and in the EU, a full cradle-to-grave welfare state) is the big reason.  People don't mind paying for tangible security that they can experience on a daily basis.  But a big reason this is possible is that the US is footing the bill for most of the civilized world's military security.  If those countries maintained military expenditures comparable to the US, would they be able to afford their welfare states?

[RetiredAt63]

Oh, yes, Trudeaumania  ;-)   Memories . . . .    From quiet LBP to him - what an interesting variety of PMs we have had.

The Montreal flag does represent its founding groups - fleur de lis, Irish shamrock, English rose and Scottish thistle.  The Union Jack only represented the British side - if we had gone with some thing more varied that would have been fine too, but Montreal got there first! The ironic thing is that there are more species of maple in Japan than Canada, and because the border starts at the 49th parallel west of Lake Superior there are no maples there, too far north for them.  It does make a nice colourful, easy to recognize flag though, not to mention pins for backpackers   ;-)

And to get even more OT, when we went through New Zealand and Australia, we didn't even need the pins, everyone knew we were Canadian by our accents - I was amazed they could tell the difference between Canadian, and say upper New York State accents.  I can't.

Sorry, back to the regularly scheduled topic . . . .

Retiredat63,
This has zero to do with the thread but one of my childhood memories is my uncle taking me over to the base of the Skylon tower to see PET speak!  Second comment is the previous flag actually told a story of the founding of Canada, much the same way as Austrailia and NZ does- the current one less so...I like it and have Canadian roots as well as surname, so I am pro Canadian on most issues not involving Olympic hockey :-)