Big Trucks

[BTDretire]

 I got a kick out of MMM's post on trucks, this comic reminded me of it.

http://media.cagle.com/106/2015/09/21/169113_600.jpg

  Near me I have an owner of Hummer that has a rack on the front
bumper, twice a week he puts two garbage cans on the rack and drives
it about 300ft to dump the cans.

[Retired To Win]

Yep... I see a lot of BIG ASS trucks around my rural neighborhood that never seem to actually be used as trucks.

I drive a 1996 Dodge Dakota pick up, which comparatively speaking looks really tiny next to the big trucks.  However, my Dakota is still big enough to transport just about any materials I ever need to bring home from Home Depot, Lowe's, or the farm & feed stores.

I think people should focus on substance, not image... which is what just about all those big trucks are really about.

[Syonyk]

Yes, hating trucks is a popular sport around here.

Pointing out the load limits and GVWR of your typical small hatchback doesn't seem so popular.  It's not hard to overload one substantially, and most of them don't have much of a tow rating to speak of either.  It's probably fine for short trips or if you live in flatter areas, but good luck with your insurance if you're 500 lbs over gross and get in an accident.

[seanc0x0]

Yes, hating trucks is a popular sport around here.

Pointing out the load limits and GVWR of your typical small hatchback doesn't seem so popular.  It's not hard to overload one substantially, and most of them don't have much of a tow rating to speak of either.  It's probably fine for short trips or if you live in flatter areas, but good luck with your insurance if you're 500 lbs over gross and get in an accident.

If you're using the truck to carry large and/or heavy things, then it's fine. It's what they're for.

What most people are mocking are the giant trucks with thousands of dollars worth of chromed accessories that are used almost exclusively for driving to/from work or around town with their beds completely devoid of anything resembling cargo.

[Kitsune]

"big trucks" that are basically perfectly-cleaned-and-shined gas-guzzlers used for no good purpose other than to look like you spend too much money and time on your truck? Ridiculous.

"big trucks" that are the 20-year-old, partially-rusted-but-still-runs pick-ups owned by my in-laws and that are used to lug sheep and the occasional other livestock and wood and construction gear and the like? Actually really useful, and used for their intended purpose.

There's a difference.

[r3dt4rget]

Yes, hating trucks is a popular sport around here.

Pointing out the load limits and GVWR of your typical small hatchback doesn't seem so popular.  It's not hard to overload one substantially, and most of them don't have much of a tow rating to speak of either.  It's probably fine for short trips or if you live in flatter areas, but good luck with your insurance if you're 500 lbs over gross and get in an accident.

There is a reason the most common new pickups on the road have a 4-door cab layout: People use them as cars 95% of the time. It's stupid to buy a new truck for the few times a year you might need to haul something a car cannot handle. How often does the average person need to haul over 500 lbs? You seem to have fallen victim to fear marketing.

[Syonyk]

"Fear marketing"?  I own a nearly 20 year old truck I intend to keep on the road for most of the rest of my life, and if the reliability of the 7.3 Powerstroke is any guide, I should be rather successful in this.

And I commute on an electric bike.  So the truck doesn't get driven particularly frequently, and certainly not as a commuter.

But a typical small car has a total payload capacity of 700-900 lbs, if that.  Throw a driver in, and you can easily overload it very badly with many of the things people seem to haul - with the rear seats down, a load of firewood is almost certainly going to push the car several hundred pounds past designed gross weight.

Hell, you can push most trucks over gross easily enough if you fill the bed with gravel.  Trailers are nice things.  But the good ones can't be towed by a small car.

It just depends on what you're doing with your life.

[Jeddy]

I had a family member in the market for a truck a few years back - it was damn near impossible for him to find a standard/single cab truck with an 8 foot bed. If you want QUAD cab to carry you and SEVEN other people, fantastic. If you want a tiny bed, we've got you covered. But a truck that will carry three people, max, with an 8 foot bed to carry anything with some length to it (you know - everything a truck really needs to be) - you're SOL.

[Syonyk]

Yeah, I know. :/  How dare you want a work truck?

The 4.5' beds are similarly silly, unless you're just using them to tow a 5th wheel or something - that's about all you can fit in the bed.

Which partially explains my lust for a regular cab/long bed F250 of the 7.3 Powerstroke area.  Small cab, 8' bed, and they're just cute. :)

Or just accept that you can't park in a single spot most places, and go for a crew cab/long bed combo.  If you don't need the rear seats at all, you can pull them out, throw some tarps down, and have what amounts to a huge locking tool box that doesn't take space in your bed.

[cb1504]

It ain't just the fuel.  Mama told me long ago: "Honey, those boys with the big trucks have big truck payments to go with."  I was immediately no longer impressed.

[Beridian]

Years ago I had a Ford Ranger compact pickup.  It was economical and handy to have for utilitarian purposes but sucked for hauling passengers.   When it wore out I went and looked at an extended cab Ford F150.  The salesman encouraged me to drive it around a bit and show it to my family.  The damn thing was enormous, I felt like I was piloting the Hindenburg.  When I stood beside it the height of the front hood was at my shoulder level (and this was the standard 2-wheel drive model)!  My petite wife laughed at it and swore she would never drive it (maybe a good thing?).  True, it had a roomy interior, roughly equivalent to two full size living room sofas, but the cargo area was really not much larger than my old little Ranger.  I took it back and told the salesman it was ridiculously huge and I wanted to look at something smaller.  I ended up with a 4 cylinder Escape which is fairly roomy and utilitarian but is small enough that it is still fun to drive, rather like a go-cart.

I can see the attraction of pickups, I just don't understand why the manufacturers make them all so darned big and ugly!

[Drew664]

So much truck hate, lol.

I enjoy mine and would easily repurchase another when it finally goes belly up. The space and utility are the main attractions,  not a status symbol or anything like that. The additional cost of gas is worth the benefits for me. :)

The trucks that are tricked out with lifts, exhaust,  chrome,  etc are a bit eye roll worthy, but then again so are most after market accessories.

[Sid Hoffman]

Yes, hating trucks is a popular sport around here.

There seems to be a rivalry between urban city-dwellers who pooh-pooh anyone that owns a car and claim they are living sustainably (even though cities require a ridiculous amount of constant care to keep the city from falling into chaos) and rural country dwellers who argue that they're being ripped off all the time because everything costs them more than they were paying when they lived in a city and had 6 different options 5 minutes from home.

I think people mostly just like to complain and declare that anybody different from them is wrong.  ;)

[use2betrix]

This website can't fathom that some people that own trucks might not need them to tow all day every day, nor do they understand towing capacities, and the million other things that go with them.

I love full time in a 15k lb 5th wheel I travel in. When I'm not moving, my trucks unloaded.

Not to mention, a lot of you have no idea what kind of financial position some of these truck owners are in.

Who's better off, the person with a 50k truck that makes 200-300k a year as me and most my coworkers do? Or the person making 50k driving a 10k Honda Fit, all other expenses aside?

My fiance drives my 2nd car, which is a 99 camry. I am 27 and easily have the cash to pay off my truck, but I invest it instead.

Oh yeah, 2 of the years since buying my $56k 2013 truck, my employer paid 100% of my gas and gave me a $650/mo truck allowance.

[snogirl]

I love my Tacoma 4x4 truck.
It takes me on all sorts of adventures & my military retirement check pays for its gas.
It provides the means to do odd jobs and help people.
Honestly, the judgement in the truck threads is a huge turn off.

[Matt_D]

Who's better off, the person with a 50k truck that makes 200-300k a year as me and most my coworkers do? Or the person making 50k driving a 10k Honda Fit, all other expenses aside?

Depends on whether "better" means "happier" or "has more money." If it's money... then the person making 200-300k and driving the $10k Honda Fit probably wins ;)

Not sure how you meant this post btw, but you're coming off as more than a bit arrogant and condescending. There are plenty of people on here who make $50k or less, are happy with life, and making good choices; in many cases they're people who the rest of us can learn a thing or two from.

As an aside: if you're using your big truck for work and/or to tow your home, I don't think anybody on here is advocating you get a smaller vehicle, that doesn't make sense. Generally the community is about only buying what you need and what makes sense for your life.

[Syonyk]

"Helping other people" is not an approved use of trucks. So I've been told.

Despite my truck providing a lot of beer... By helping people move stuff. And letting me get stuff cheap because I'm the only person who can move that item.

I get that commuting in a truck is not great, but a small hatchback is not a replacement for a truck if you need a truck.

[use2betrix]

Who's better off, the person with a 50k truck that makes 200-300k a year as me and most my coworkers do? Or the person making 50k driving a 10k Honda Fit, all other expenses aside?

Depends on whether "better" means "happier" or "has more money." If it's money... then the person making 200-300k and driving the $10k Honda Fit probably wins ;)

Not sure how you meant this post btw, but you're coming off as more than a bit arrogant and condescending. There are plenty of people on here who make $50k or less, are happy with life, and making good choices; in many cases they're people who the rest of us can learn a thing or two from.

As an aside: if you're using your big truck for work and/or to tow your home, I don't think anybody on here is advocating you get a smaller vehicle, that doesn't make sense. Generally the community is about only buying what you need and what makes sense for your life.

So what about when I stop at the gym on the way home from work? Or take it to have dinner with my fiance? Then is it acceptable for the mustachian community, or only work and towing?

How does someone REALLY know what "all these pointless trucks on the road" are doing. Sure they may know a few people, but does that mean you should assume it's true for all?

Yes, I did come off as condescending and that was part of the intent. I'm sure you'd see me parked at the gym after work in my big nice truck and automatically assume the crap that gets spread on this forum. What you don't know is I'm in my mid 20's, make a lot of money, and for what I make I'm somewhat thrifty otherwise (hence our $5000 Camry)

So yeah, these threads do strike a bit of a nerve sometimes.

[NICE!]

Yes, I did come off as condescending and that was part of the intent. I'm sure you'd see me parked at the gym after work in my big nice truck and automatically assume the crap that gets spread on this forum. What you don't know is I'm in my mid 20's, make a lot of money, and for what I make I'm somewhat thrifty otherwise (hence our $5000 Camry)

So yeah, these threads do strike a bit of a nerve sometimes.

You sure have spent a lot of time talking about how much money you make. This is not the measure of a man.

Perhaps most people around here are looking at this from an environmental perspective? Have you looked at it that way?

Also, as previous posters have noted many times around here, a work truck is one thing. A luxury truck that maybe carries two loads a year is another.

[MrMoneyMaxwell]

Can we at least all agree that people who modify their trucks to "roll coal" are dickheads? (especially in densely populated urban/suburban areas)

[use2betrix]

Yes, I did come off as condescending and that was part of the intent. I'm sure you'd see me parked at the gym after work in my big nice truck and automatically assume the crap that gets spread on this forum. What you don't know is I'm in my mid 20's, make a lot of money, and for what I make I'm somewhat thrifty otherwise (hence our $5000 Camry)

So yeah, these threads do strike a bit of a nerve sometimes.

You sure have spent a lot of time talking about how much money you make. This is not the measure of a man.

Perhaps most people around here are looking at this from an environmental perspective? Have you looked at it that way?

Also, as previous posters have noted many times around here, a work truck is one thing. A luxury truck that maybe carries two loads a year is another.

My point is that the posters here look at it as the next dumb "purchase."

So what if someone needs a truck sometimes for work, sometimes to tow, but also has a life outside of that?

What's worse, driving the work Truck for 100% of those miles, or having a second car when you don't NEED the truck? I'd imagine the process and pollution of making the 2nd car and then disposing of it might be worse than the environmental aspect of the truck. Not to mention, the only real pollution in which a truck is worse than a car is its mpg. The diesels now have such an insane amount of emissions tacked on they aren't much less clean than a gas vehicle.



What I find arrogant is lumping every person that drives a truck not for its intended purpose 100% of the time, into the same generalized negative category.

[use2betrix]

Can we at least all agree that people who modify their trucks to "roll coal" are dickheads? (especially in densely populated urban/suburban areas)

I think we can all agree on this.

[Syonyk]

Can we at least all agree that people who modify their trucks to "roll coal" are dickheads? (especially in densely populated urban/suburban areas)

Even people on diesel truck forums think those people are idiots.  You're also doing a nice job of washing down the cylinders and pistons, which eliminates the oil film that keeps the piston rings from grinding on the cylinder, so it's really quite hard on the engine.  I'm fairly confident that they also, generally, drive EGTs into utterly insane territory, which is really hard on turbos.  It's flat out not good for a diesel to be running that rich.

That said, it's important to distinguish "rolling coal" from a normal diesel, that will put out a light haze under a heavy load.

[daverobev]

Fuckssake, these threads always do the same thing.

Some people get good use out of a truck. <--- nobody cares, they aren't being talked about

Some people own trucks and really should own a Civic/Corolla <--- these people! It's these ones!

Last month or something, the stats in Canada showed about 2:1 trucks to cars sold. You CANNOT tell me that's right. You can rent a pickup for $20 a day if you just need a load of gravel. In fact I should probably do that, rather than fitting my car with a hitch.

The general point is we're ALL stupid in some ways, but environmentally the rise of SUVs and crew cab trucks is depressing.

Ha, ha, I've got a small penis.

UGH.

[big_slacker]

Trx, we went through the same thing on the jeep thread. It's just garden variety internet straw man stuff. As with anything else it's best to get the details before passing judgement but not everyone does that.

[Johnez]

Can we at least all agree that people who modify their trucks to "roll coal" are dickheads? (especially in densely populated urban/suburban areas)

Just googled "roll coal," am now utterly amazed grown ass men do this....to prove manhood. Wow.

[use2betrix]

I'm curious why 2 door rwd sports cars don't get brought up. Those are far less practical than trucks, and many get about the same mpg.... I see them often. Mustangs and cameros the most, challengers some.

Truck, $40k - gets low 20's on the highway. Comfortably seats 4-5, can use for a LOT.

New Mustang - $40k - gets mid 20's on the highway. Comfortably seats 2, or 2 plus small children in conveniently. Rwd, bad in inclement weather..

Yet somehow trucks always get called out.

Calling out trucks on the MMM forum has been beaten to death as much as all the tools on the fitness forums complaining about, "bro's curling in the squat rack."

[Syonyk]

Some people own trucks and really should own a Civic/Corolla <--- these people! It's these ones!

Yes, and it's very hard to tell, based on an observation, what the case is.  Someone who lives in a 5th wheel & takes their truck to town is, when in town, mostly indistinguishable from someone who owns a truck to commute, unless you're looking for things like the 5th wheel mount rails & some other signs of a heavy tow vehicle.

Just googled "roll coal," am now utterly amazed grown ass men do this....to prove manhood. Wow.

It's mostly teenage boys, near as I can tell.  Maybe into their young 20s.  So, I guess, you're technically correct, but it's very much a thing that's been blown out of proportion by The Internet Justice League.  Or whatever the people who flock to the outrage of the week is.

https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=rolling%20coal

It had a HUGE GIANT WOW THESE PEOPLE ARE TOOLS spike last July or so, then went back to it's normal trend.  Most people have forgotten.  You're a bit late.

[The Beacon]

This should be relative to how much you make.  If you make a lot of money, it does not make any sense to buy a beater. My rule of thumb is 10% of my annual gross.  If I gross a million a year, I would not hesitate to get a brand new GTR. 

[JimLahey]

Came across this on Facebook recently.



I like the idea of having a full size truck but realistically it would not be practical for me 99% of the time. Not to mention the cost of them. I wish that GM, Dodge, etc. had not stopped making proper small sized trucks. The newer Canyon, Tacoma, and Colorado are huge compared to the old Rangers, S10s and Dakotas.

[Syonyk]

I'd love a little diesel Ranger.

[daverobev]

I'm curious why 2 door rwd sports cars don't get brought up. Those are far less practical than trucks, and many get about the same mpg.... I see them often. Mustangs and cameros the most, challengers some.

Truck, $40k - gets low 20's on the highway. Comfortably seats 4-5, can use for a LOT.

New Mustang - $40k - gets mid 20's on the highway. Comfortably seats 2, or 2 plus small children in conveniently. Rwd, bad in inclement weather..

Yet somehow trucks always get called out.

Calling out trucks on the MMM forum has been beaten to death as much as all the tools on the fitness forums complaining about, "bro's curling in the squat rack."

The V6 Mustang, at least, is pretty good on fuel.

And those cars aren't shaped like bricks, at least. Check http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbsSelect

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=35919&id=35660&id=35437&id=35739

True, the F150 doesn't do too badly. If you buy a brand new one ;)

[daverobev]

I'd love a little diesel Ranger.

Move anywhere outside the US and Canada! Ha. http://www.ford.co.uk/CommercialVehicles/Ranger/Models

15k GBP = 30k CAD, about 23k USD. Plus tax.

[Sjalabais]

This is such an odd topic from outside the US. I follow jalopnik.com and similar blogs because I am sort of into cars. The new Ford "Super Duty" is now introduced as the ultimate work truck. But it is the epitome of irrational resource use. A work truck with a giant engine, huge cabin, little work area, that is also hard to access...here's what the rest of the world calls a "work truck", 4x4 if you're so inclined:

Sports cars can be a pretty efficient choice of transport. Also, these cars hold their value well, and may even turn out to be an investment (look at prices for the Toyota Supra or Mitsubishi 3000GT).

[ooeei]

So much truck hate, lol.

I enjoy mine and would easily repurchase another when it finally goes belly up. The space and utility are the main attractions,  not a status symbol or anything like that. The additional cost of gas is worth the benefits for me. :)

The trucks that are tricked out with lifts, exhaust,  chrome,  etc are a bit eye roll worthy, but then again so are most after market accessories.

Are we reading the same thread?  Pretty sure the majority of people up there are all for trucks when used as actual trucks.  I've lived in TX my whole life, and had a truck in high school.  I used it for something a truck was needed for maybe 4 times in the 5 years I had it.  I knew multiple kids who lived in the city and drove diesel dualies to school every day.  The block in town where I lived was full of trucks that were never used for hauling.  It's the same in every TX town I've lived in.  Trucks are something you get just because they're what dudes get.  You move furniture with it maybe every 1-3 years, move maybe 1-2 other things per year, and use it as a car the other 99.95% of the time.  THAT is what people are calling out as being dumb.

See quotes below.

This website can't fathom that some people that own trucks might not need them to tow all day every day, nor do they understand towing capacities, and the million other things that go with them.

I love full time in a 15k lb 5th wheel I travel in. When I'm not moving, my trucks unloaded.

Not to mention, a lot of you have no idea what kind of financial position some of these truck owners are in.

Who's better off, the person with a 50k truck that makes 200-300k a year as me and most my coworkers do? Or the person making 50k driving a 10k Honda Fit, all other expenses aside?

My fiance drives my 2nd car, which is a 99 camry. I am 27 and easily have the cash to pay off my truck, but I invest it instead.

Oh yeah, 2 of the years since buying my $56k 2013 truck, my employer paid 100% of my gas and gave me a $650/mo truck allowance.

Pretty sure almost everyone in this thread can fathom exactly that, as they mentioned in most of the comments above.  Not sure where you're seeing this irrational hate of trucks. 

Yeah, I get it, some jobs (oil field?) use a truck very often and pay really well.  Don't think there's anyone here who'd hate on you for using a truck required for your work.  Congrats, you get paid a lot, but what a silly wage comparison.  Last I checked a big truck isn't required to make $300k.  If you found a job that requires a truck and pays $300k, of course you should do it.  The same way I'd take a job that requires a $5,000 computer to perform if it paid $200-300k.  That doesn't mean everyone else should buy a $5,000 computer though, does it?

How about now we start defending $10,000 suits for the average person because someone here who's a CEO of a fashion company needs to wear them?  Gosh custom 5-figure suits get so much hate here, no one can fathom that they could be something people use for real.

  Near me I have an owner of Hummer that has a rack on the front
bumper, twice a week he puts two garbage cans on the rack and drives
it about 300ft to dump the cans.

I drive a 1996 Dodge Dakota pick up,

If you're using the truck to carry large and/or heavy things, then it's fine. It's what they're for.

"big trucks" that are the 20-year-old, partially-rusted-but-still-runs pick-ups owned by my in-laws and that are used to lug sheep and the occasional other livestock and wood and construction gear and the like? Actually really useful, and used for their intended purpose.

How often does the average person need to haul over 500 lbs?

I own a nearly 20 year old truck I intend to keep on the road for most of the rest of my life,

I can see the attraction of pickups, I just don't understand why the manufacturers make them all so darned big and ugly!

[Syonyk]

Not sure where you're seeing this irrational hate of trucks. 

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what-will-replace-trucks-as-the-next-dumb-purchase/ is a good start.

This is the most civil "truck" thread I've seen on the forum in a long, long time.

[music lover]

This forum is definitely selective in deciding what is wasteful.

Trucks are bad unless you use them 100% of the time as a "truck", but flying half way around the world and back for a 2 week vacation is considered awesome.

[zephyr911]

So much truck irrationality hate

I must take issue with your totally missing the point. I love trucks, and I gleefully rent one every time I need it. It's a fun experience, especially when paying for it out of the thousands I save every year by not using one when I don't need it.

Trucks are great when used appropriately and MMM will tell you so forcefully: the last blog entry on the subject prominently featured a fully loaded semi as a functional and profitable investment. What is mocked here, and rightfully so, are people like my co-workers who drive full-sized work trucks long distances daily with no cargo just to sit at a desk - because it's profoundly irrational. In and of itself, this habit can easily cost a guy (or gal) six figures in a decade, yet people do it en masse for no coherent reason other than "I like to sit up high" or "men drive trucks".

Nope.

This forum is definitely selective in deciding what is wasteful.

Spending substantially more than necessary to achieve desired results is wasteful. The consensus is pretty high on that one.

Trucks are bad unless you use them 100% of the time as a "truck", but flying half way around the world and back for a 2 week vacation is considered awesome.

So much exaggeration and oversimplification. "If the numbers work out for you, own a truck - but they usually don't" is more apt. Trucks get the treatment they do here not because they're inherently bad, but because so many buyers of trucks fail to practice the MMM concept of choosing only mindful spending that maximizes results.
MMM describes occasional air travel as a ridiculous luxury, even cites it as proof that he's not extremely frugal; I rarely see it praised here outside the context of someone getting an insane deal (overseas for a few hundred bucks, etc) via travel hacking. Wasteful and overpriced travel is criticized every bit as much as wasteful and overpriced transportation.

[Syonyk]

I think the point with air travel is that if you're going to go off on truck owners for their horrible environmental effects (which is about half the thread I linked), air travel is probably something you should be going after even more.  And, probably, hybrid owners, because the mining involved in battery production isn't a pretty thing either.

Also, for renting trucks, can you rent them with a good tow package/5th wheel hitch?  I wasn't under the impression anyone would rent vehicles to be used for heavy towing.

[zephyr911]

This website can't fathom that some people that own trucks might not need them to tow all day every day, nor do they understand towing capacities, and the million other things that go with them.

I love full time in a 15k lb 5th wheel I travel in. When I'm not moving, my trucks unloaded.

Not to mention, a lot of you have no idea what kind of financial position some of these truck owners are in.

Who's better off, the person with a 50k truck that makes 200-300k a year as me and most my coworkers do? Or the person making 50k driving a 10k Honda Fit, all other expenses aside?

My fiance drives my 2nd car, which is a 99 camry. I am 27 and easily have the cash to pay off my truck, but I invest it instead.

Oh yeah, 2 of the years since buying my $56k 2013 truck, my employer paid 100% of my gas and gave me a $650/mo truck allowance.

"This website can't fathom" anything, nor can any other website. Servers store data. If you were trying to generalize the thoughts and feelings of the literally thousands of people who post here, you might want to rethink that - for one, it's never that simple, and for two, you're simply incorrect.

Using income level to explain a spending decision will bring nothing but uproarious laughter upon you here. The rationality of the decision is 100% unaffected by the quantity of currency you have, or the rate at which you receive it.

If your truck is a good investment for you, have at it. Nobody here has a problem with that. But take note, that would be true regardless of your income level.

[zephyr911]

I think the point with air travel is that if you're going to go off on truck owners for their horrible environmental effects (which is about half the thread I linked), air travel is probably something you should be going after even more.

I can't find it, but there was an entire thread about air travel and the environmental implications not long ago. It started out with someone asking "why don't we talk/think about this more", and a bunch of people talking about how they actually DO think about it, how MMM affects their habits, etc.

And, probably, hybrid owners, because the mining involved in battery production isn't a pretty thing either.

I know this concern is still being kicked around, but it's truly overstated. Today's batteries are expected to last 10-20 years in their primary use alone (even some 20yo Prius batteries are still on the road), with reuse in utility-scale storage for another decade-plus, after which 95-98% of the material is recyclable. Compared to mining/pumping combustible fuels for one-time use, it's pretty damn low-impact.

Also, for renting trucks, can you rent them with a good tow package/5th wheel hitch?  I wasn't under the impression anyone would rent vehicles to be used for heavy towing.

I rented a solid F-250 once to move a trailer I was buying... it didn't seem to be an issue. But anyone who regularly pulls heavy loads is a good candidate for truck ownership anyway.

IN SUMMARY: I do realize that a few people on the forum take the scorn too far, but most MMM criticism is explicitly or implicitly directed at mindless and irrational consumption, whether it be a truck or a plane ticket, and not the thing being consumed per se; likewise, most objections stem from someone missing that distinction and getting mad because they chose to procure that thing and feel personally insulted.

[NICE!]

I definitely think about air travel, so much so that I donate to environmental organizations every time I do it (the offset options the airlines give you are hit or miss, you can often find better ones elsewhere if you look).

But a person that goes on one LA to NY trip a year emits far less CO2 than someone who drives their truck/SUV/etc 400 miles/month. 400 miles a month might seem like a ton to most of us on the forum, but that is not an uncommon number. Air travel is a big ticket item that you can control and get a "big win" out of, like Ramit Sethi would say. Unfortunately there isn't any traction to control emissions in this realm...unlike passenger vehicles. As ridiculous as trucks/SUVs/etc can be, at least the fuel efficiency requirements are going to dramatically alter them over time.

On another note, just eating food and doing other normal human stuff typically equals more than air travel (and even the 400 mile/month truck). Being more conservation-minded in all the non-air travel aspects of your life can yield more gains, but it takes more actions (walking/biking/taking the train, eating less meat/food overall, composting, etc etc).

This is certainly something to talk about, but it doesn't excuse needless truck driving, particularly for those who cannot afford it.

[zephyr911]

But a person that goes on one LA to NY trip a year emits far less CO2 than someone who drives their truck/SUV/etc 400 miles/month. 400 miles a month might seem like a ton to most of us on the forum, but that is not an uncommon number.

Hell, 3x that is common here.

[use2betrix]

This website can't fathom that some people that own trucks might not need them to tow all day every day, nor do they understand towing capacities, and the million other things that go with them.

I love full time in a 15k lb 5th wheel I travel in. When I'm not moving, my trucks unloaded.

Not to mention, a lot of you have no idea what kind of financial position some of these truck owners are in.

Who's better off, the person with a 50k truck that makes 200-300k a year as me and most my coworkers do? Or the person making 50k driving a 10k Honda Fit, all other expenses aside?

My fiance drives my 2nd car, which is a 99 camry. I am 27 and easily have the cash to pay off my truck, but I invest it instead.

Oh yeah, 2 of the years since buying my $56k 2013 truck, my employer paid 100% of my gas and gave me a $650/mo truck allowance.

"This website can't fathom" anything, nor can any other website. Servers store data. If you were trying to generalize the thoughts and feelings of the literally thousands of people who post here, you might want to rethink that - for one, it's never that simple, and for two, you're simply incorrect.

So members generalizing people that own trucks is perfectly ok... But me generalizing the consensus on truck ownership on this forum, is not.

Pot meet kettle.

[Drew664]

So much truck irrationality hate

I must take issue with your totally missing the point. I love trucks, and I gleefully rent one every time I need it. It's a fun experience, especially when paying for it out of the thousands I save every year by not using one when I don't need it.

Trucks are great when used appropriately and MMM will tell you so forcefully: the last blog entry on the subject prominently featured a fully loaded semi as a functional and profitable investment. What is mocked here, and rightfully so, are people like my co-workers who drive full-sized work trucks long distances daily with no cargo just to sit at a desk - because it's profoundly irrational. In and of itself, this habit can easily cost a guy (or gal) six figures in a decade, yet people do it en masse for no coherent reason other than "I like to sit up high" or "men drive trucks".

Nope.

This forum is definitely selective in deciding what is wasteful.

Spending substantially more than necessary to achieve desired results is wasteful. The consensus is pretty high on that one.

Trucks are bad unless you use them 100% of the time as a "truck", but flying half way around the world and back for a 2 week vacation is considered awesome.

So much exaggeration and oversimplification. "If the numbers work out for you, own a truck - but they usually don't" is more apt. Trucks get the treatment they do here not because they're inherently bad, but because so many buyers of trucks fail to practice the MMM concept of choosing only mindful spending that maximizes results.
MMM describes occasional air travel as a ridiculous luxury, even cites it as proof that he's not extremely frugal; I rarely see it praised here outside the context of someone getting an insane deal (overseas for a few hundred bucks, etc) via travel hacking. Wasteful and overpriced travel is criticized every bit as much as wasteful and overpriced transportation.

I get both sides of the argument - I just don't agree with where the line is drawn on the commuter vehicle portion as personal preference is given no value - why go through life like a robot that can't accept any other outcome that doesn't allow one more cent in a bank account that is probably too full anyway? Agree to disagree on this one.

 Saving money out of fear of spending it isn't healthy, nor is the inverse.

[Bardo]

I'm sure that some people occasionally use their trucks for towing or whatnot, but I'm also convinced that 95%+ of the time trucks are just gas-wasting commuter vehicles. 

Pick-ups are basically sold to make men feel manly.  Just look at any truck ad (deep ad voice growls "getting things done").  I swear there's nothing in the world that can't be sold by implying that it validates men's masculinity.

Me, I'm perfectly content with my little hatchback.

[paddedhat]

After a lifetime in construction, and always having at least one full sized truck/van/suv in the driveway, and others in the company fleet, I retired. I sold my last company van and immediately grabbed a cheap 1/2 ton stripped out work truck. Naturally, the thought was, "how can I ever do without a truck? Even if it's parked in the driveway most of the time, every man in rural America needs a truck"  I started driving the wife's CRV and, for the first time in decades, was actually piloting a vehicle that wasn't stupid big. It didn't take long until I really fell in love with the whole idea of being able to zip around, and park just about anywhere, while using half the fuel. I sold the truck about a year after I bought it. I didn't put 500 miles on it, in that time.

It's been two years now, and you couldn't give me a full sized truck at this point. The biggest take away has been really seeing the issue from all three sides. #1 as a business owner who really had a need for big work trucks #2 As a properly trained mindless American consumer who joined the herd, and wasted countless dollars on driving oversized personal vehicles. #3 becoming independent enough in my thinking to drive what suits my needs 99% of the time, and learning to adapt to those times when a three ton truck would be the right tool for the job.

Never thought I would be in this place, and it makes me one hell of an outlier in this patch of the woods, but it still is the best choice, by far.

[2ndTimer]

Best use of big truck I know is an acquaintance who owns auto shop.  He hauls all kinds of huge heavy stuff several times a week.  Wouldn't make sense for us who haul a piece of furniture once a year.  It's not trucks we dislike it's trucks that never haul anything heavier than somebody's big butt.

[use2betrix]

I'm sure that some people occasionally use their trucks for towing or whatnot, but I'm also convinced that 95%+ of the time trucks are just gas-wasting commuter vehicles. 

Pick-ups are basically sold to make men feel manly.  Just look at any truck ad (deep ad voice growls "getting things done").  I swear there's nothing in the world that can't be sold by implying that it validates men's masculinity.

Me, I'm perfectly content with my little hatchback.

thanks for stating that you don't drive a truck. After the first two paragraphs I was convinced you drove a lifted dually or something. Whew. That was a close one.

I almost feel like those who make negative statements about trucks being manly, only do so to validate their own "manliness."

In fact, I think anyone who even has to discuss others masculanities or their own, is glaringly insecure.

[Apples]

Slightly different take on why to choose a smaller truck.  I chose my Toyota Tacoma, with it's extended cab and 6 foot bed, because I need it for work.  I actually put 2-4 people in it almost every day, and put ladders, equipment, and parts in the bed regularly.  Why not a bigger truck?  So my 5 foot 7 inch self can actually reach items laying in the bed.  All the "regular" sized pickups are too tall nowadays to reach over the tailgate or the side of the truck for me.  I have to climb up and over every. single. time.  Arrggghhhhh.  But our farm has a 1994 F150 that's even smaller than my Tacoma, that I just love.  I can reach everything in it!  I've heard the problem is that people started racing pickup trucks, and once that happened, trucks started sitting higher off the ground for less friction from airspeed.  And from there they just got bigger.  Is that true at all?