Best Locations in the Southeast

[tyleriam]

Are there any places in the Southeast where you can live day to day without a car by biking or walking that have good/great schools?  Whenever I research walkable places it is typically the big cities.  Bikable places all seem to be out West.  Am I missing someplace?

[the_gastropod]

Charlottesville, VA is a pretty great little city that suits your needs. It's also a rather beautiful place.

[WildJager]

I have relatively limited exposure to the southeast, but I can give input to where I've been for the last four years for what it's worth.  Little Rock, AR is awful for both biking and walking outside of the built up areas of the city.  Near the river there is a nice biking trail and the city has been doing quite a bit of work to make that region more bike friendly.  However, only a few miles out of downtown sidewalks are nowhere to be found (nor road shoulders).  Plus, the mentality of the locals is that bikers are bad and they enjoy trying to run you off the road with their trucks.  There are pockets of Arkansas that are more friendly to pedestrians and bikers, mostly northern cities like Eureka Springs, but they are generally tourist towns.  Not the best for normal living (read: Expensive).  Public transportation is also non-existent besides a couple expensive and unreliable cab companies.

I know this is addition by subtraction, but I figured I'd throw in my input on where I'd rather choose not to live from my experience.  :)  Conditions could improve down the road, but right now I'd cross central Arkansas off your list.

[bogart]

I'd say Chapel Hill/Carrboro NC are candidates, though you'd have to be strategic about where in town you lived, and the state's educational system is under attack (from its elected officials) in ways that threaten the public schools even in this college-professor-saturated area.

[tralfamadorian]

I've lived in the Charlottesville, VA area for many years and have to respectfully disagree with it as a suggestion.  Parts of downtown are bikable but you would still need to drive to the grocery store and many other basic amenities.  As far as schools the best are in the county, which is not bikable at all, not the city.

I would recommend Charleston, SC.

[soccerluvof4]

Asheville,NC

[Geekenstein]

I don't know the rest of your requirements, but Inverness, Fl is worth a look.  It's not walkable, but definitely bikeable.  Very good schools.

[Mr. Green]

I'm not sure what the OP's definition of a big city is but Wilmington, NC is pretty walkable/bike-able. Like any city it has better neighborhoods/schools and worse neighborhoods/schools. It's on the coast so you have the beach. It also sits on the Cape Fear river so you get some river life as well. It's a college town. At roughly 100,000 people it has all the stores or amenities you could want, but it's not so large that it has much traffic.

I suspect you're finding there are more qualifying places out west because everything on the East Coast is 100 years older.

[tyleriam]

When I said big cities I meant New York, Boston, Chicago, Miami, etc.

By West coast bikable cities I meant Portland, Boulder, various town in California like Berkeley, etc.  Places with a Platinum level bike rating all seem to be out West. 

Wilmington, NC is a very good suggestion to look into.

I have been to Asheville for work and on a 2 week vacation once.  I'm not sure how bikable it is outside of the downtown core.

I will throw one out there myself that I have thought a lot about.  Peachtree City, GA.  Look it up.  It's south of Atlanta, it's where a lot of airline pilots live because it is close to the airport and opposite commute direction.  It is a planned community with good schools and it is a golf course community.  There are golf cart paths running all through town, to every shopping center, all through the parks, etc.  Everyone that lives there owns a golf cart pretty much.  Everyplace in town has golf cart sized parking spaces, it's a 'thing' there.  You can ride bikes on the paths just as easy as a golf cart.  An electric golf cart is probably a mustacian form of transportation too although you don't get any exercise.  Houses there are generally pretty expensive for Georgia but nothing compared to prices on the West coast.  There are smaller townhomes and condos there too though.  You are close to Newnan which has all the bigger shopping and Atlanta which has everything.  Like I said, close to a major airport where you can fly anywhere in the world.

[CanuckExpat]

Roughly speaking, what do you consider Southeast?
Do Miami and Charleston fit your criteria?

[nazar]

Gainesville, Florida as a college town is pretty pedestrian and bike friendly.  As a teen there years ago I got around without a car very well, between bike, bus, and my own two feet.

[tyleriam]

Miami and Charleston fit the bill as South for sure but Miami is too big/expensive for me to consider.  Charleston is a good suggestion though.

Gainesville is interesting.  I have read about Gainesville in articles as a bikable place.  I have a slight aversion to it though as both my wife and I went to Auburn so seems like it would be setting up shop in enemy territory :)  (I realize that is silly though).

[zippyc]

When I was visiting Raleigh, NC, I was surprised by the number of paved trails for biking and walking. I don't know if they are interconnected enough to make it bikable, but you might check it out.

Richmond VA would be bikable downtown in the city, but the good schools are in the burbs.

New Orleans? Not sure about schools there, though.

[geekette]

Raleigh's not particularly bikeable, IMHO, if need to go somewhere in particular.  Nor Cary, although there are a lot of attempts (I'm not brave enough to go along with 45 mph traffic just because there are "sharrows").

Carrboro and Chapel Hill are better, at least according to a friend who has lived there sans car.  Between the bike and the busses, he got around fine.  Of course, he had my SIL and her car for longer trips.  Car sharing really hasn't caught on here - not enough demand.

[CanuckExpat]

How far north would you consider? The Mid Atlantic, or do you stop somewhere South?

Any other criteria, is it somewhere you would want to be able to find work, or will you be FI?

I'm kind of curious to follow along and hear about your thinking process because the wife and I occasionally talk about moving back to the East Coast to be closer to home, but don't necessarily want to deal with Winters (or humidity) in the North East full time. The South East is appealing for nicer winters, not too much further, and more affordable. Not sure what to think about the humidity in the South East, so I always thought the Mid Atlantic might be a reasonable compromise with not horrible winters nor totally horrible summers. 

[tyleriam]

Based on where my family is Tennessee/North Carolina is about the farthest I would go.  If I go beyond that I might as well head out West where I would REALLY like to live.

I definitely would not be FI.  Just daydreaming about an affordable place I could live without needing a car day to day.  I think I am just wishing there was a Boulder in the South but it just does not exist. 

[tyleriam]

I guess I should just be looking here http://www.bikeleague.org/bfa/awards

It mentions what we have talked about.

[Jack]

In Atlanta, Midtown is walkable and has good schools, the suburb of Decatur is walkable and has great schools, and the neighborhoods between the two have good-to-great schools but are slightly less walkable.

[andy85]

It is really hard to judge an entire city...

For instance, i really like Louisville. But, on it's face, it doesn't seem very mustachian or particularly  bike-able at all. But there are pockets within the city that would be fantastic. "The Highlands", for example, in louisville is probably a mustachian's dream....awesome restaurants, bars, night life, grocery, parks, farmer's markets, entertainment, etc, all within probably a 2-5 mile stretch of road. It is a very 'hippy' and trendy place to live...and for good reason. It is really hard to intimately know how a city would be unless you have first hand experience.

Schools are another thing...most of the 'good' schools around here are either private or out in the outlying county areas

[Tetsuya Hondo]

I've seen Charleston mentioned a number of times. I love the city and am there often. However, the areas that are walkable (the historic Peninsula area, Daniel Island, historic areas of Mt. Pleasant) aren't cheap and the cheap(er) areas aren't that walkable. The COL is rising by the day as it's a small metro area that has experienced a large influx of new residents.

[tyleriam]

I was just thinking the same as the last two posters...it seems like the thing that is mutually exclusive is walkable/bikable and good schools.  It seems like it is either one or the other.  Maybe that is why we are drawn to much to Boulder, it seems like it has both but then again it is not affordable.

We were on a big Boulder kick but have realized it might just be too expensive.

We have talked about Colorado Springs as a more affordable version of Boulder.  Never been there though so don't know much about it.

[tralfamadorian]

Now that you have specified that you are primarily looking at the south because you expect it to be inexpensive, I withdraw my recommendation of Charleston.  It's an amazing place but the most desirable, walkable areas are quite expensive for the region.

[Jack]

I was just thinking the same as the last two posters...it seems like the thing that is mutually exclusive is walkable/bikable and good schools.  It seems like it is either one or the other.  Maybe that is why we are drawn to much to Boulder, it seems like it has both but then again it is not affordable.

Walkable, good schools, cheap: pick two.

[tyleriam]

Walkable, good schools, cheap: pick two.

Very good point.

[startingsmall]

Another vote for Gainesville, FL. Very bike-friendly (I rarely drove during undergrad or vet school), good schools (because it's a college town), and affordable. The only problem can be jobs.... the college is basically all that's in town, so unless you are working for the university or providing a service for college students, jobs can be limited. Pay is also often low, because you're competing against a zillion college students, grad students, and recent grads. Still, it's a great town if you can find work!

[CanuckExpat]

As some others have said, I think it's difficult to make blanket judgement about cities as expensive or cheap, or good for biking or bad: Sure the average COL of some areas is higher than others, but every area has it's relatively affordable pockets and it's expensive areas. Similar to biking, while some cities are more dense and classically pictureesq and walkable, it's possible to live a bike friendly life in most urban areas.
If there is something that draws you to a city, you should check it out and see how you can make an awesome affordable life there.
Things like climate, geography, that happen on a larger scale might be easier to generalize about, but perhaps Imy opinion is coloured by the things I look at when evaluating a potential place to live.

Though speaking of climate and geography, if you like the West, you should consider it.. there is awesome climate and geography :)

[hoping2retire35]

http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Clemson-SC/pmf,pf_pt/house,mobile,land,townhouse_type/72677737_zpid/10855_rid/34.677,-82.786124,34.654233,-82.822301_rect/14_zm/

cheap, walkable, bikable, good schools, favorite beer store is 3 minute walk away from this place. other houses nearby too that are closer to grocery stores. clemson university is like a giant park with buildings in it, and a giant library.

I'm sure there are other college towns that are similar in the region.

[Rubic]

To avoid selection bias, I'll avoid recommending my own hometown, and instead offer: downtown Chattanooga.  Located on the Tennessee River, close to the mountains, plenty of outdoor activities, city-funded broadband Internet, with a low cost of living (TN has no state income tax).

https://www.walkscore.com/TN/Chattanooga/37403

[Kriegsspiel]

To avoid selection bias, I'll avoid recommending my own hometown, and instead offer: downtown Chattanooga.  Located on the Tennessee River, close to the mountains, plenty of outdoor activities, city-funded broadband Internet, with a low cost of living (TN has no state income tax).

https://www.walkscore.com/TN/Chattanooga/37403

I've been looking at Chattanooga a lot lately as a relocation area for a different job. It looks pretty solid. In addition to what rubic said, the real estate looks pretty cheap, and from what I can tell, you can rent it out with no taxes other than property tax, which are very low. Also has a pretty diversified economy.

[VAR]

To avoid selection bias, I'll avoid recommending my own hometown, and instead offer: downtown Chattanooga.  Located on the Tennessee River, close to the mountains, plenty of outdoor activities, city-funded broadband Internet, with a low cost of living (TN has no state income tax).

https://www.walkscore.com/TN/Chattanooga/37403

I've been looking at Chattanooga a lot lately as a relocation area for a different job. It looks pretty solid. In addition to what rubic said, the real estate looks pretty cheap, and from what I can tell, you can rent it out with no taxes other than property tax, which are very low. Also has a pretty diversified economy.

Chattanooga is gentrifying -there's still a LOT of crime around those cheap houses. So look into that carefully. People I know in Chatt would not consider living in that area - they live 15+ minutes out in the suburbs and nearby towns. TN has no income tax but they have certain taxes on investments and the sales tax is high. For people interested in traveling by air, the airport there is very small.

[Kriegsspiel]

To avoid selection bias, I'll avoid recommending my own hometown, and instead offer: downtown Chattanooga.  Located on the Tennessee River, close to the mountains, plenty of outdoor activities, city-funded broadband Internet, with a low cost of living (TN has no state income tax).

https://www.walkscore.com/TN/Chattanooga/37403

I've been looking at Chattanooga a lot lately as a relocation area for a different job. It looks pretty solid. In addition to what rubic said, the real estate looks pretty cheap, and from what I can tell, you can rent it out with no taxes other than property tax, which are very low. Also has a pretty diversified economy.

Chattanooga is gentrifying -there's still a LOT of crime around those cheap houses. So look into that carefully. People I know in Chatt would not consider living in that area

What area?

they live 15+ minutes out in the suburbs and nearby towns.

Which ones?

TN has no income tax but they have certain taxes on investments and the sales tax is high.

Right, from what I gather, they tax dividends and interest (not capital gains) at 6%, with a $1,250 deductible (so, about $41,000-62,500ish of stocks/bonds would be deductible). But for someone who wants to invest in real estate, you can use the FONCE exemption.

For tax purposes, I like the low property and income taxes, and high sales taxes, because I don't buy anything. Most states don't tax groceries, but TN does (at 5%), so if you buy $200 of groceries a month it's $10. Florida has no income tax, medium sales tax, but higher property taxes. South Carolina also has pretty low taxes.

[Dee18]

Georgia, just a few minutes from Chattanooga, does not have a state sales tax on groceries, although there can be local taxes.

[zephyr911]

http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2016/02/study_ranks_alabama_city_as_th.html

It's not the most walkable city, but there are some affordable and fairly safe neighborhoods that are getting that way. Our last move was driven by walkability - we're 2 blocks from groceries, library, dentist, possibly a doctor, tons of restaurants and bars, and the county courthouse satellite office (license/tax/everything). Paid barely $100K. Love my neighbors and have had no problems with safety/security.

We still both commute 10+ miles by car, but we drive less overall, and I could easily find a bike/walk commute if I felt like changing jobs within my field. I'm close enough to the end that I just don't feel like the effort at this point. I'm about to start adding more telework into my schedule, which is progress enough for now.

[Jack]

If it weren't for the fact that the kind of job I want is pretty specific and there likely isn't any company in that industry there-- or if I could keep my current job and telecommute -- I'd consider moving to Chattanooga. I've never really explored the city though, just gone to the aquarium once or twice.

One thing I like about Chattanooga (and Huntsville, AL) is that it's on the Tennessee River, which is navigable all the way to the ocean. After FIRE, I'd like to sail the Great Loop, and a city like that would make a good "home base" (if I felt the need for one).

Georgia, just a few minutes from Chattanooga, does not have a state sales tax on groceries, although there can be local taxes.

According to Google Maps, from intown Chattanooga neighborhoods to the Costco in Ringgold, GA is about 10 miles (one way) with about 500 feet in elevation gain (which comes in the form of two large ridges with the rest of the route mostly flat). No idea how safe for biking the available routes are, though. There's also an ALDI in Fort Oglethorpe, GA, a similar distance away.

[Rubic]

According to Google Maps, from intown Chattanooga neighborhoods to the Costco in Ringgold, GA is about 10 miles (one way) with about 500 feet in elevation gain (which comes in the form of two large ridges with the rest of the route mostly flat). No idea how safe for biking the available routes are, though. There's also an ALDI in Fort Oglethorpe, GA, a similar distance away.

There are bike routes, though the terrain is somewhat strenuous.  Each year I come down to ride Three State, Three Mountain:

 http://www.chattbike.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63&Itemid=37

Some friends and I have occasionally done 24 hour rides where we'd end up in downtown Chattanooga at sunrise.
 

[BBub]

I've heard St. Augustine, FL is a very nice little town.  Never been, but a friend lived there for a while & loved it.

[VAR]

I've been looking at Chattanooga a lot lately as a relocation area for a different job. It looks pretty solid. In addition to what rubic said, the real estate looks pretty cheap, and from what I can tell, you can rent it out with no taxes other than property tax, which are very low. Also has a pretty diversified economy.

Chattanooga is gentrifying -there's still a LOT of crime around those cheap houses. So look into that carefully. People I know in Chatt would not consider living in that area

What area?

they live 15+ minutes out in the suburbs and nearby towns.

Which ones?

TN has no income tax but they have certain taxes on investments and the sales tax is high.

I worked at a place where we had a branch in Chatt. Last year I asked the former coworkers - as remember I was warned off the in town areas very strongly and the area between Chatt and GA (South of town) Ooltewah was recommended in particular. And believe signal mt and  red bank.
What I noticed when looking at the cheaper houses in town while I was still considering Chatt.last year was that many of the houses have bars on the windows and security doors.

I have another friend who works around signal mt. and seems to like the area but she has a lot of trouble with winter weather and getting to work.

I ended up not going there because I was concerned about not liking the job but not having many choices to have another employer without moving. This is what has happened to 2nd friend above- we work in the same field and she just has to take what they offer which is significantly below what I make in ATL suburbs a couple of hours away.

[asauer]

I live in NC and would recommend checking out the following:
1. Asheville
2. Chapel Hill/ Carrboro
3. Downtown Raleigh (other areas of Raleigh would be VERY difficult for biking)
4. Wilmington (near UNC Wilmington)- set up nicely for bikes
5. downtown Charlotte

As others said, these cities have good and bad areas/ schools.  Additionally while downtown areas certainly cost more than the 'burbs, it is still a low cost area compared to 75% of the rest of the US.

[Jack]

I'd be interested in comparing crime statistics for in-town Chattanooga vs. southwest Atlanta (and also vs. southeast Atlanta). Anybody know a good source?

[eccdogg]

Raleigh is decent if you live/work inside the beltline.  They have added many dedicated bike lanes.  Area around NC State/Cameron Village is very walkable bikeable and has good schools.  Housing is fairly pricey in that area but you can get a two bedroom one bath 1000 sqft town house waking distance to grocery, bus stop, high school, big park for around 170k.

[Dee18]

Crime statistics are very, very localized.  I lived in DC for many years in a precinct where there was no murder for many years, but other parts of the city had a high murder rate.  Many police departments now have crime statistics online.

[Jack]

Crime statistics are very, very localized.  I lived in DC for many years in a precinct where there was no under for many years, but other parts of the city had a high murder rate.  Many police departments now have crime statistics online.

Yeah, but I'm lazy so I'd like to have [somebody else find for me] a single site that presents the neighobrhood-by-neighborhood (or zip code-by-zip code, at least) statistics from different cities in the same format.

[katsiki]

New Orleans is out.  Schools are not good for the most part.  Other parts of LA are better but walkability will vary a lot.

[VAR]

I'd be interested in comparing crime statistics for in-town Chattanooga vs. southwest Atlanta (and also vs. southeast Atlanta). Anybody know a good source?

I don't know a good source other than city-data. But that would be an interesting comparison.
The thing is that the bad parts of ATL are going to far outspread anything in Chattanooga and you will experience it more. I've been here (Atlanta) since last August, there have been numerous shootings of people sitting in traffic or driving down the road. That problem and the need living here ofgoing to parts of the city you'd prefer not to(for example going to the tag office. Had to do it.It had a police officer there to monitor the crowd. unsettling)...that's would apply no matter how nice your home neighborhood is.

[Dexterous]

Within the SE... I've lived in Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Florida.  Florida had the best places for biking by far.

Several people I knew in Destin, Ft Walton Beach, and Navarre rode their bikes to work/school.  Destin would probably be the best of those, but the cost of living is much higher than the others mentioned.

Peachtree City, Georgia is a town I've been to that seems biker friendly also.  Everybody rides golf carts there, so I imagine you could bike on the same paths.

[TomTX]

Crime statistics are very, very localized.  I lived in DC for many years in a precinct where there was no under for many years, but other parts of the city had a high murder rate.  Many police departments now have crime statistics online.

Yeah, but I'm lazy so I'd like to have [somebody else find for me] a single site that presents the neighobrhood-by-neighborhood (or zip code-by-zip code, at least) statistics from different cities in the same format.

Pshaw, actual crime is WAY more granular. In college I was literally 2 blocks from the edge of the BAD part of town. However, I was in a "cheap college student" cul-de-sac. Other than the occasional noise complaint or "mow your grass" citation, there was no crime activity at all. The only real cultural mixing was at the corner gas station at the border. Would not have wanted to live 2 blocks over, however.

[Jack]

Crime statistics are very, very localized.  I lived in DC for many years in a precinct where there was no under for many years, but other parts of the city had a high murder rate.  Many police departments now have crime statistics online.

Yeah, but I'm lazy so I'd like to have [somebody else find for me] a single site that presents the neighobrhood-by-neighborhood (or zip code-by-zip code, at least) statistics from different cities in the same format.

Pshaw, actual crime is WAY more granular. In college I was literally 2 blocks from the edge of the BAD part of town. However, I was in a "cheap college student" cul-de-sac. Other than the occasional noise complaint or "mow your grass" citation, there was no crime activity at all. The only real cultural mixing was at the corner gas station at the border. Would not have wanted to live 2 blocks over, however.

True -- in my area, the vast majority of the crime is limited to a few particular low-end/subsidized apartment complexes and/or streets with a "problem house." However, at that level of granularity it becomes hard to talk about "statistics" because everything becomes an anecdote.

[freeat57]

I'd be interested in comparing crime statistics for in-town Chattanooga vs. southwest Atlanta (and also vs. southeast Atlanta). Anybody know a good source?

One nuts and bolts way would be through the crime reports on Trulia.  Just look up a house in the area of interest and scroll down to the colorful map and reports.

On another note: Jack, could you look at my thread and see if you have any insight?  http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/real-estate-and-landlording/bubble-reforming-in-atlanta/

[tryathlete2011]

Throwing in Greenville SC. Very bike friendly so you can live outside of the city center and still be able to get around. Kind of feels like a slightly less collegey version of Austin to me. Well, less music too.

[zephyr911]

I just thought back to my time in Tampa and I barely even drove there. This was pre-MMM for me and it didn't take much effort to make that happen... just came naturally. I found a place about 6 miles from where I worked, mostly along the waterfront, and my commute was the best part of the day.