Being laid off and thinking about learning computer coding

[Bartleby_the_Scrivener]

About a week ago, I received notice my employer has decided to cut my position next year.

The prospect of looking for a new employer and starting again from nothing fills me with anxiety, and I haven’t been satisfied with my career for some time, anyway. After talking with my wife, we made the decision that I ought to look for a career in a different sector.

Initially, I looked into law. After talking with two friends of mine who are lawyers and looking at the costs of tuition (and time), I decided that was a poor choice. I looked into accounting, but I would have to take so many courses that it would be cost prohibitive as well.

After some more thinking and reading, I have another course of action that I am considering. A nonprofit in my city offers a course on learning to code. It’s a short course, only a semester long with another month of training after, but the nonprofit offers apprenticeships to those who perform well during the course, apprenticeships designed to lead to full-time employment.

I’m curious if anyone here might be able to tell me a little more about coding from the perspective of someone inside the industry. I would appreciate any and all observations that you might have to share.

• Would I have trouble finding a position without a degree? From what I have read, that does not seem to be the case, but it just runs so counter to my experience in other sectors that I thought I would ask.

• Do most people stay at one company for a while, or is there a lot of switching between companies?

• What is the day-to-day experience of someone employed in coding? I realize that this may differ greatly based on where one is employed and what type of coding one does, but I’m interested in any accounts.

• Any other thoughts / considerations that spring to mind?

[obstinate]

• Would I have trouble finding a position without a degree? From what I have read, that does not seem to be the case, but it just runs so counter to my experience in other sectors that I thought I would ask.

Any time someone asks this question, people who have a job in the industry with only HS diploma come out of the woodwork to say that you don't need a degree. But the fact is that YES, it will be harder, all things being equal, than if you had a degree. When I look at a resume, someone without a diploma definitely needs to prove themselves more conclusively to pass my interview.

It's not impossible, but harder. You'll get less benefit of the doubt.

• Do most people stay at one company for a while, or is there a lot of switching between companies?

Varies. I've been at my current employer about nine years, but I think a typical number is closer to three or four.

• What is the day-to-day experience of someone employed in coding? I realize that this may differ greatly based on where one is employed and what type of coding one does, but I’m interested in any accounts.

Probably 1-2 hours of meetings, 1-2 hours of face-to-face conversations, and 3-5 hours writing, thinking, and programming, and an hour for lunch. That's me though. Most of your time is spent in conversation with peers, or writing in some form (notes, documents, code). Lots of trying different things and thinking about the best approach to a problem. A bit like solving a complicated and annoying riddle with ever changing parameters.

• Any other thoughts / considerations that spring to mind?

You should start with one of the websites like Learn Code the Hard Way. You'll find out pretty quickly whether you have the aptitude+work ethic to make it. You will need to build a portfolio if you hope to get hired without a degree.

[bacchi]

@obstinate

Thank you for that detailed reply.

Any time someone asks this question, people who have a job in the industry with only HS diploma come out of the woodwork to say that you don't need a degree. But the fact is that YES, it will be harder, all things being equal, than if you had a degree. When I look at a resume, someone without a diploma definitely needs to prove themselves more conclusively to pass my interview.

It's not impossible, but harder. You'll get less benefit of the doubt.

What about degrees in other fields? I do have a bachelor's (journalism) and a master's (teaching). Obviously, neither is nearly as good as a computer science degree, but are they irrelevant?

Some coding is simple. Serving a dynamic web page? Query the database, render the page with the variables (user name, etc.), and serve it up. That doesn't take much experience or classwork.

Some coding is more complicated. Handling multiple processes all talking to the same resource (aka, multi-threading synchronization) or clustering a database? That takes more experience and classwork than a bootcamp or coding academy can provide.

The former pays less but eventually pays better than most teachers. The latter pays more but requires more classwork.

So, yeah, getting a web dev job (usually ruby, python, or even -- god-forbid -- php) is achievable with just academy classes. As obstinate alluded to above, you'll need to talk the talk and walk the walk during the interview.

That said, my client was so desperate that they hired very junior developers and they were frighteningly devoid of  basic knowledge. It's like they had only read a few pages on the internet. They don't make much ($35k) but, if they learn and do the work, they'll advance.

[maizefolk]

Condolences. Even when I was still in school is struck me as particularly stupid that budget cuts often meant our favorite teachers (who tended to be young and enthusiastic) were the first ones on the chopping block, and four jobs in seven years sounds brutal.

I want to echo obstinate's point that no one is going to be able to tell if being a programmer is a viable career path for you until you're dug in and tried it for a while.

In both my day job and side hustle (side business), I work with lots of folks with STEM backgrounds who have been realizing they need to start learning at least a little programming to deal with datasets where excel just won't cut it. Some people take to it like a fish to water once you get them over the initial activation energy, and others never get past the frustrating slow slogging bit. I've never able to tell which people will end up in which camp before they start but it becomes obvious quite rapidly.

My advice would be to block off two weeks to sit down with one of those websites and just try it. If you're still miserable at the end of two weeks and it's not getting any easier, you've figured out it's not for you without losing a lot of time.

Also, there are lots of jobs, some of them quite well paying, where being comfortable with basic scripting (something like Perl, Python, or Java) and data wrangling will get you through the door even though the job title doesn't include the words software/programmer/developer.

[Roland of Gilead]

A semester to learn how to write computer programs?   With some math/engineering background or starting from scratch?

Could I take a semester and then become a teacher?

[Rubic]

• Would I have trouble finding a position without a degree? From what I have read, that does not seem to be the case, but it just runs so counter to my experience in other sectors that I thought I would ask.

Three of my recent hires were completely self-taught.  Only one of them had a college degree and it was in English.  I have a degree in Computer Science (including some graduate work) and although I appreciate my education for its own sake, I've had good luck with many people who did not seek a CS degree.

Whenever I chat with other employers in my area, the subject of a CS degree never comes up.  We're more interested in experience and willingness to learn.  Contributing to open source projects is a major plus.

• Do most people stay at one company for a while, or is there a lot of switching between companies?

Many programmers I know don't stay at a single job for long for a couple reasons:  1) It's easier to get a salary boost by jumping ship;  2) boredom with their current assignments (and possibly dealing with pointy hair bosses).

• What is the day-to-day experience of someone employed in coding? I realize that this may differ greatly based on where one is employed and what type of coding one does, but I’m interested in any accounts.

It's all over the map, but generally you get to spend some of your time telecommuting.

• Any other thoughts / considerations that spring to mind?

If you think you have an interest in coding, give it a shot.  You'll be learning new skills and whatever your future endeavors bring, you may have an opportunity to apply those skills in your career.  Good luck!

[Vilgan]

I think there are two parts to this question:

1) Should you learn to code?

Absolutely. It will be helpful regardless of where you end up. The skills are applicable in a ton of career fields and many people I know end up benefiting by knowing how to write python scripts or interact with databases and such.

2) Can you got a job as a programmer without a CS degree?

This is a lot harder. Everyone sees "XYZ programmer" with a giant salary without realizing how realizing just how much there is to learn and just how hard it is to get your foot in the door. There's a LOT of knowledge to absorb: Databases, network communications, a variety of protocols, design patterns, coding best practices, a lot of platform peculiarities etc. I feel bad for perpetuating the problem, but when I look at hiring people - the junior devs who don't know much yet are usually not worth the risk. I would rather pay someone twice as much who already has the requisite knowledge than hire a junior dev and spend tons of time teaching them all the necessary skills and knowledge I've accumulated over years of coding. I've also seen a lot of people really struggle to get the first decent job. I make plenty now and also pay people a lot of money, but that's after 4-10 years of varied experience and exposure to a whole lot of various problems.

People like to say you don't need a CS degree, but many of those without a degree have learned more on their own than those with a degree and have cool projects/Open Source contribs/clear aptitude such that the degree doesn't matter. Many of the "code camp" graduates I've seen others hire were complete disaster and people were a lot less willing to give them a try after getting burned several times.

So overall: I think it makes sense to go play around with coding. Learn Python. Understand the web better. Build a web page. If you find that you love it then dig in and see where it takes you. Just don't assume taking a few free courses and then switching careers will be an easy path to riches because there's a lot more to it than many realize.

[shadowmoss]

I'm assuming that with a journalism degree you know how to write.  An ability to be concise and understandable is an asset in the technical world.  You might want to look more at technical writing.  Knowing how to code would be a plus, but you know all those manuals?  They are written by someone.  And hard-core coders tend not to be great writers, or at least understandable writers.  Take your current background and veer over to technical writing.  Code Academy is good for a starting place.  It is free.

[obstinate]

What about degrees in other fields? I do have a bachelor's (journalism) and a master's (teaching). Obviously, neither is nearly as good as a computer science degree, but are they irrelevant?

I don't think they would count for much, but it'd be better than nothing.

The nonprofit suggests that beginners start with Code Academy or Khan Academy just to see, which I assume is similar to your site.

I'd take the Learn X the Hard Way books over any other, personally. I don't have any experience with Kahn Academy or Code Academy.

[big_slacker]

Is it coding specifically you're interested in or IT in general?

There are a ton of specialties out there which also pay well and may be a better fit. Software dev isn't for everyone, you might find it (as I do) incredibly tedious compared to say infosec, VoIP, network, DBA, datacenter, etc.

No more hijack than that, but if you're interested in something else there are a ton of random IT folks on the board who can give more info.

[jim555]

I would avoid this field.  When I worked at Megacorp they moved most of the coding to India, or Indians with visas. 

[slackmax]

Getting straight A's in a coding school and enjoying the tasks doesn't mean  you will enjoy real world coding or be good enough at it. It's a whole different world once you get an actual job coding.

Your brain has to be able to do it. If you are good at chess you may be good at coding. If you are good at memorizing driving directions instantly and remembering where you went 15 minutes ago and being able to visualize the whole thing at once (not in bits and pieces) that is a big plus. 

I was a coder (programmer/analyst/project leader)  and thought it was great when it was only moderately complex, but I really got stressed out when things got what they used to call "very complex".  And you can't avoid the "very complex" stuff unless you want to be in "operations" as opposed to development. And even in operations you had to have the right sort of physical brain to do it well. 

For coding/programming you have to have an excellent short term VISUAL memory and be able to VISUALIZE many many logical connections SIMULTANEOUSLY and know what will happen when connection A is changed.
Some people have the gift, most do not. 

 



 


 

[Roland of Gilead]

For coding/programming you have to have an excellent short term VISUAL memory and be able to VISUALIZE many many logical connections SIMULTANEOUSLY and know what will happen when connection A is changed.
Some people have the gift, most do not.

My wife is like that.  She can look at a software task and immediately break it up into the correct parts, figuring out what type of objects, classes or whatever are needed to efficiently solve the problem.

I just hack everything in between main { }

Maybe why she made $250K and I made $50K

[big_slacker]

I'm really pleased with the advice and perspective that have been offered so far. I have been lurking on the boards for a few months and just recently decided to join, and I am glad that I did.

Honestly, I'm open to a lot of suggestions right now. I just want to avoid dragging myself into debt slavery again chasing after a credential that's more of a signaling device than an actual representation of a hard skill.

Debt slavery would only occur if you took expensive classes to learn what you can learn for free online. Most IT training IMO is a racket that offers very little actual value for the amount of $$ spent. The promise is 'come for a week and learn X tech!'. The reality is you can't learn the material needed in any useful fashion in that time period unless you have a ton of background and the class is very specialized.

Good news is almost any IT tech they days you can run a virtualized version of and learn it over time sitting in your house. GNS3 for networking, virtualbox/vmware/xen for hosts, kali linux for hacking/infosec and so on. Even some of the high end appliances have virtual versions these days.

I guess my advice would be to do some reading about what each specialization is all about and decide on one that sounds like something you'd want to do. All the specializations make decent money once you get rolling, and that will happen if you're interested and have fun learning. That's the key.

[obstinate]

(1) From my perspective the tech industry is very cyclical.

This view is not very well supported by the data. Besides the single downturn in 2001, tech salaries have been up and to the right for the entire history of the computer industry. That includes the 2008 recession, where tech salaries were pretty resistant overall to the downturn. It's now probably the best-compensated profession in existence, especially given the relative brevity of the required training. Computers are not likely to become less important in the future, either.

[Outlier]

I would suggest taking what you're educated in and what you enjoy then finding a niche in the technology world. Saying you want to code is just not enough. Look for the end result that would mesh well with what you enjoy and refine from there. Just learning some random language and applying for jobs isn't going to get you far.

[ShumateWB]

OP, what subjects do you teach at school?  If you have taught Science or Math, I think you will find it easier to learn to code. How did you do in your SAT and GRE?  Did you do well in the Math portion and do you like doing basic logic puzzles? Think about whether you want to do combinatorial math problems, logic problems for the rest of your working career if you want to be a software engineer.  Others have advised you about project management and tech writing, so if your inclination runs in that direction, you will do well.

I live in Silicon Valley and work as a software engineer at a major software company even though I don't have a CS degree. However, I do have other engineering degrees, and took a couple of basic CS courses in programming and Data Structures/Algorithms. You will find that except for the most elite software jobs and companies, the rest are happy to hire somebody with a college degree as long as they display the ability to code during the interview process. For most companies, a degree is check box to fill in for filtering out candidates.  You have two and so it should not be a deal breaker.

If you are serious about this, you should take a step by step approach to mastering the coding process and gaining the confidence needed to pass coding interviews. It will take you at least a year and maybe two, but in the long run, it will be well worth it.  Your first step is to study up and get the coding knowledge and skills. Your coding boot camp will help, but highly motivated self study will be much better. Take courses on data structures, algorithms and diligently do all the exercises. Then do the exercises at codeacademy, hackerrank etc.  Once you are done, then look at coding interview books and see if you can solve the problems. I recommend http://www.amazon.com/Cracking-Coding-Interview-6th-Edition/dp/0984782850.  If you can understand those problems and solve them, then you should be ready for a coding job.

[ShumateWB]

I teach English. My SATs were 90th percentile, I think. My GRE scores were 710 on the verbal section and 630 on the quantitative reasoning section, although I hadn't had a math class in three years when I took the GRE. I was a much better student in college than in high school, mostly because I finally discovered a love for learning just about anything.

If you look at GRE statistics, you will find that getting high scores in Verbal is more difficult than getting one in the quantitative section. While 710 V is a very good score, 630 Q is a low score, but perhaps your gap of 3 yrs may have been the reason.  For comparison, I got 690V and 800Q.

The more that I read about coding here, though, the more that I'm thinking it wouldn't be a good idea to try to become a hardcore coder.

Perhaps, but your should try out the exercises and see if you like them and if you are good at solving them. Even if you end up not being a hardcore engineer, having an idea of how difficult and how long a task should take will be a good thing. You will gain that skill only if you try your hand at it. If you end up being a manager, you should be able to call bullshit if someone overestimates tasks, or do reasonable estimates yourself.

[Lordy]

Hello,

if you have a background in teaching you might also consider becoming an IT-Trainer down the line. I hear that Cisco, Red Hat and Oracle instructors can make a very decent amount of money. Of course that requires some study and expertise first but may be a worthwhile medium-term goal.

What I will write now may sound like a joke but I don't mean it to be. If you want to find out if coding is for you spend $10 and buy the game "Human Resource Machine" (http://store.steampowered.com/app/375820/). It is a programming-based puzzle game that requires a coder's thinking to get far. If you enjoy figuring these type of challenges out, coding could be a good choice for you.

Kind regards,
  Lordy

[AZDude]

Hi, I have spent about ten years in the software development field.

• Would I have trouble finding a position without a degree? From what I have read, that does not seem to be the case, but it just runs so counter to my experience in other sectors that I thought I would ask.

As others have said, it will be harder, but not impossible. You can get a certification that will help, like an MCSE. Also, non-profits and government(the shit jobs that pay less) will be more likely to hire you than say, IBM. I had a hard time finding jobs even with a degree but no experience. Now, I get recruiters(both third party and corporate) calling/emailing/linkin-ing me a few times a week, every week. Once you are in, and you keep your skills fresh, you will never have to worry about finding a job.

• Do most people stay at one company for a while, or is there a lot of switching between companies?

I have had 7 jobs in ten years, including one brief stint and my current job, where I have been for just over a month. Much of that has to do with working through the recession, where I saw layoffs every year from 2009 to 2013.

• What is the day-to-day experience of someone employed in coding? I realize that this may differ greatly based on where one is employed and what type of coding one does, but I’m interested in any accounts.

Obviously it varies, but generally you sit at your desk working on an assigned project, with a daily or weekly meeting where you go over your progress with the group. The stress level runs the entire spectrum. I've had 60+ hour weeks where I was working friday night, saturday night until the AM, and I've had literally weeks where there is little to nothing to do. The time of year can influence this as well. Winter and summer are generally slow, the spring is usually the busiest time. Overall the flexibility and pay keep me in this career even though I don't enjoy the work anymore. 

• Any other thoughts / considerations that spring to mind?

Technology changes rapidly, so you will have to make sure you stay up to date, even outside of work. Good organizations will pay for training or encourage you to use newer technologies. Shitty ones will have you coding in ten year old languages with no concern for your obsolete skill set.

[big_slacker]

Hello,

if you have a background in teaching you might also consider becoming an IT-Trainer down the line. I hear that Cisco, Red Hat and Oracle instructors can make a very decent amount of money. Of course that requires some study and expertise first but may be a worthwhile medium-term goal.

I did a 3.5 year stint as a Cisco cert trainer. Pay really depends on the company, classes and your level of experience. Some of the CCIE training places can pay upwards of 200k/yr but constant travel. Teaching the low-mid level classes at a training company or college will more likely be in the $35-70k/yr but a more 'normal' existence. Also worth mentioning I know that Global Knowledge pays $1k/day + expenses for 1099 contract trainers (CCIE level) which can be awesome for somene who lives in a LCOL area and flies out to teach a 1 week class once a month.

At a minimum you can get in with the cert you're teaching yourself and probably some kind of training credentials for the tech/manufacturer you'll be teaching. For Cisco that would be a CCNA and the CCSI (instructor cert). I'll say though that you'll probably struggle greatly teaching those classes with no real world IT experience. For instance you passed the CCNA which teaches some basic networking and router config. You're teaching the class and someone raises their hand and says, "What should I be using at work for routing, OSPF or EIGRP?" You've never worked in the industry and have no clue what the real world pros and cons are of those routing protocols, only the 5 lines of config you know how to do for the CCNA test. It's a case of not knowing what you don't know. And you'll get 50 of those questions throughout the week of the class. You could be in for a lot of early stress, embarrassment and questioning your choice to do this.

Not trying to scare to OP away because classroom control of an experienced teacher will go a long way. But going into IT training with no IT experience is an uphill battle. On the positive, I had a great time as a trainer, meeting people and helping them along, no stress in really breaking things, etc.

[Zamboni]

In addition to Kahn Academy, there are free online courses which are more course like (might have assignments, lab, quizzes, tests) offered via platforms such as Coursera and Udacity. It might be work checking these out. One of my friends learned basic coding concepts through a Statistic course she took via Coursera because they used a program called R for a bunch of the practice labs. Also, I think one of the Coursera founding professors is in Comp Sci, so that seems to be one of their big push areas.

People seem to list these on their resume as if they went to that college for the course (aka Modern Poetry course, spring 2016, University of Pennsylvania, famous Prof. So and So.) Not sure how kosher that is if the online platform isn't mentioned, but people definitely use it as a way to show progress in educating themselves.

Good luck!

[Northwestie]

Oh Dog - why would you want to learn how to code?  IMO it seems to be one of the most boring jobs I could think of - sitting at a desk all day typing away at some matrix.  Ugh.  Surely someone will reply that it pays well.  Pause for running away quickly.

[scottish]

It's actually very creative.   At least if you have a good project.    Maybe not so creative if you're stuck fixing problems in 20 year old business software.

[Northwestie]

OMG - well, some folks like sitting in an office staring at a screen all day - that would drive me crazy.  IMO it seems so boooooring. Akkkk!   To each their own I suppose..............

[MrsDinero]

Have you considered being a professional trainer?  In my experience if you are a good teacher/trainer then it is easy to teach you the material to pass on to the students (usually professional adults).  It is a way to use your teaching credentials but wouldn't subject you to school district budgets.  I know a few professional trainers who work for full time for corporations designing the presentations and giving the class.  Some also work as government contractors or independent contractors for companies like Global Knowledge or SANS Institute.

[Annamal]

What I will write now may sound like a joke but I don't mean it to be. If you want to find out if coding is for you spend $10 and buy the game "Human Resource Machine" (http://store.steampowered.com/app/375820/). It is a programming-based puzzle game that requires a coder's thinking to get far. If you enjoy figuring these type of challenges out, coding could be a good choice for you.

Maybe have someone ready to prod you away from the computer when you've spent 5 hours powering through the game and you're hung up on finding how the heck to go from 13 steps to 12...

On a more serious note HRM is a good way of checking to see if you have the constitution to sit down and plug away at a problem until it solved (and then optimise your solution)

[bryan995]

Start watching some comp sci courses.

Lots of very good beginner ones on youtube.
e.g.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6U-i4gXkLM

or sign up for free mit/harvard/stanford courses on https://www.edx.org/

If you like math and enjoy super complicated puzzles, then comp sci is for you.
Might I suggest comp sci with a focus on biology (bioinformatics) - it will be the future.

high level examples of how quickly things can become quite complicated :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ5jsbhAv_M&list=PLUl4u3cNGP61Oq3tWYp6V_F-5jb5L2iHb&index=19
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGd06MTRMHs
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PwhiWxHK8o

[AZDude]

OMG - well, some folks like sitting in an office staring at a screen all day - that would drive me crazy.  IMO it seems so boooooring. Akkkk!   To each their own I suppose..............

Indeed. Plenty of us fantasize about working outdoors, but the money, flexibility, and job security keep me here.

[Jack]

• Would I have trouble finding a position without a degree? From what I have read, that does not seem to be the case, but it just runs so counter to my experience in other sectors that I thought I would ask.

There are two kinds of "people without degrees."

The first kind is the hardcore obsessive computer geek who has been programming for fun since he was in elementary school and doesn't have a degree because he went directly into being a professional software developer after high school. That sort of guy gets hired instantaneously if the interviewer has any sense.

The second kind is the person who has no inherent interest in computing and who worked in some other industry, but has decided to switch careers because programming sounds like an easy way to earn a quick buck. This kind of person almost always sucks at programming, and will have a very hard time getting hired if the interviewer has any sense.

OP, you will be successful to the extent that you resemble the first kind of degree-less programmer. Or in other words, if you're in the subcategory of "obsessive geek who just didn't realize it until later in life." Proof of competency (e.g. a portfolio) will be required. On the bright side, you'll know real fast whether you're cut out for it or not, just by taking one MOOC (or maybe playing that game others have mentioned): you'll either love it and find it easy, or it will be impossible torture.

[big_slacker]

OMG - well, some folks like sitting in an office staring at a screen all day - that would drive me crazy.  IMO it seems so boooooring. Akkkk!   To each their own I suppose..............

I used to work with a guy I'll call snowboarder Dave. He was a graveyard computer operator (babysitter) and I was a sysadmin at the time. Some office drone was in working with us and playfully called us computer nerds. Snowboarder Dave immediately said, "We're not nerds, this just buys our passes. Both of us do over 80 days a season riding."

I don't get 80+ days anymore, but snowboarder Dave's statement is still correct. Yesterday I checked some e-mails, wrote a troubleshooting doc so others can do work instead of me and then took off at 11am to go snowboarding. Up on the hill I smoked a J and had a beer. (I wasn't driving, weed is legal in WA, so responsible of me!)

Today I'm working from home because I have 2 new wheelsets for my bikes coming and they're signature required. When they get here you're damn right I'm going for test rides. The wheelsets are paid for by my employer, they give us $800 a year for fitness equipment.

So yeah, it's terrible being chained to a desk bent over a computer screen 12 hours a day. ;)

[scottish]

Aye, Northwestie, what do you do for a living?    Park ranger?   Mounted police (i.e. the north west mounted police)?   

I don't get much skiing in since we moved back to Ottawa from Calgary, but I don't feel like I'm stuck staring at a screen all day either.

[MilesTeg]

Some of the best developers I have ever worked with and/or hired were from other fields: biology, economics, etc.

Exactly zero of my co-workers and subordinates have a development background that includes only a 6 month intro to programming class. I would never, even for a second, consider hiring someone like that other than as an unpaid intern or similar.

Not sure why there are so many folks who think that programming is not something that takes serious effort to learn and do. Those coworkers of mine that did not have a programming specific background were also able to demonstrate a real track record of work experience (often starting from internships or by contributing to open source projects), and were able to demonstrate sufficient knowledge and skill.

None of those qualities will result from just a few weeks of effort. Don't fool yourself into thinking you can, but if you really want to take it up you can. It's just going to take real effort.