Author Topic: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[  (Read 19397 times)

shelivesthedream

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2015, 11:03:10 AM »
Coldly said perhaps you should make prostitution legal it would help some students and I am from Europe with prostitution legal country.

Now that is not what I wish that students use desperately prostitution, but how to fix the root of problem that is difficult. It is not the governments fault and it is not the parents fault it is those greedy teaching places.

Landlord2015, I've seen a lot of non-sequitur posts from you lately. Every time I read something and think "What? How is that related to the topic?" it seems to be one of your posts. And for some reason you always bring up prostitution and how it is legal in your country (Finland?). Most of your post is very apposite but please think for a moment before your post about whether you are actually replying to the topic or just getting one of your hobby horses out (prostitution, rental income, taxes...).

SirFrugal

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2015, 12:59:49 PM »
The student loan "problem" is a joke.  The average is about 30k...that isn't really a life altering amount of money.  Pick up a second job for a couple years and cut back some luxury items for a while and you can get that paid back no problem.  If you are crushed by 30k in debt so bad you can't ever get out and you have a college degree...congrats, you obviously picked a less than worthless degree.  I know way too many people that want to complain about their student loan payments but somehow manage to afford a new car, a 100+ dollar a month data plan for their 500 dollar smart phone, and have money for a fancy vacation every year, etc.

The handful of people I do know that got buried for an amount well over that 30k average all fell for the same basic traps.  The first and most obvious was opting to go to a ridiculously expensive school.  If you got buried for 100k+ because you had to live at a fancy private college you get no sympathy from me, because 100k was more than I paid for 2 degrees done commuting to a community college and state college.  Sure I wasn't a financial wiz at 18, but I knew enough to know the difference in price between commuting to community/state college and living at a fancy college would work out to almost being enough to buy a house with after 4 years.  They also borrowed more money than they actually needed, and used the difference to pay for cars and vacations.  I know one person that borrowed and extra 8k one semester for a car, and now wants to cry endlessly about her 70k in student loans...its insane!  The thing all these types of people have in common is if they didn't get buried in student loans, they'd have got buried by some other kind of loan because they obviously lack any financial common sense at all.  They are the same types of people that end up in credit card debt, buying a house they really can't afford, taking 6 year loans out for cars and only care about the monthly payment even though they are paying for the car twice over, etc.  If anything they should be ecstatic they are buried in student debt that is preventing them from taking on other higher interest forms of debt.

Landlord2015

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2015, 04:26:38 PM »
Most of your post is very apposite but please think for a moment before your post about whether you are actually replying to the topic or just getting one of your hobby horses out (prostitution, rental income, taxes...).
Yes I do think before I post. However prostitution, rental income, taxes
are not hobby horses for the people who do it. I don't mean to be evil or try to insult you or other people.

It is about MONEY. Rental income is a hobby? What?! Landlord or Landlady is not a fun hobby.
Hobby is for example that I do sports and also play Magic The Gathering.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering
Magic the Gathering that is hobby true, but I have sold for 10k euro MTG cards this year 2015 so again it has to do with money.

Moving on...

What joke is this? Where is the info that 30 000$ is average student loan? Even if it would be true they might count those who do not take any loan.

I have heard about loans like 100 000$+ and that is very much money. Sure if you get that good or super job then you can pay if off, but not all get a good job.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 05:11:27 PM by Landlord2015 »

SirFrugal

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #53 on: November 25, 2015, 05:37:46 PM »
What joke is this? Where is the info that 30 000$ is average student loan? Even if it would be true they might count those who do not take any loan.

I have heard about loans like 100 000$+ and that is very much money. Sure if you get that good or super job then you can pay if off, but not all get a good job.

google it, its true

http://money.cnn.com/2013/12/04/pf/college/student-loan-debt/index.html
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/01/24/the-average-american-owes-this-much-in-student-loa.aspx
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/19/student-debt-map_n_6168396.html

There are tons of sources all giving relatively close figures depending how exactly they derive their data.  People in the hole for 100,000+ are the extremes, and I'd be willing to bet most of the people 100,000+ in the hole don't complain a whole lot about it because they end up as doctors, lawyers, etc and paying it back isn't an issue.  I have a relative that had 250k in student loans when she finished up, but she's a doctor now and making 200k+ a year so its not a big deal for her...its just the ones that end up 100k+ in the hole that got there because they went to a super expensive school and got a bachelors in a low paying field that want to cry.

Plus...THEY SHOULD COUNT THOSE THAT DON'T TAKE LOANS.  Isn't that what an average is?  You take the total amount of loan money, divide it by the total number of students enrolled.  I busted my butt to pay my way through college...why should I not count towards the average, but if I had one semester I came up short and borrowed 1000 bucks...then I'd count?  How would that make any sense.

Here is another pretty awesome source.  The data is 2012 so its a couple years dated, but it has a table ranking your debt load by percentiles.

http://www.frugalfringe.com/numbers-crunching/compare-your-student-loan-debt-to-national-studies-whats-your-percentile/

If you have 100k or more in student loans, congrats, you compromise one of the 4.6%.  If you have 30k or less are part of the 75%.  Every time I've read an article about one of those poor souls buried in six figures of student loan debts its always a joke how many bad choices they made in life, generally a super expensive college and a degree in a low paying field among other things, when the reality is the majority of college grad are still finishing with an amount of student debt approximately equal to buying a new car or less...hardly a life altering amount of money if they are willing to make a few cuts to other areas of their life, and as a mustachian I'm sure you'd agree a lot of people waste a lot of money on extra things they really don't need so for the average person to trim their budget a bit its definitely possible.

Landlord2015

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2015, 06:21:09 PM »
You do have facts that back up your information.
Thats said how about that take a Master Degree
say 6-7 years University.

I can tell you why the loans are not bigger. Because
really many parents sava money for their childrens education.

There are ways to make money of course work part time and study
but, those who do not have parents that pay for anything
are often in bad position regading how big the loan can grow.

I am saying why the loan is so little for many are that parents back them up
financially.

Here is one main budget worry for many parents in USA: How can I save enough money for the childrens studies?

You obviously are wealthy and I am not even near poor for sure. That
said how about those parents that have say many children
that want to study?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 06:29:20 PM by Landlord2015 »

SirFrugal

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2015, 09:04:07 PM »
I can tell you why the loans are not bigger. Because
really many parents sava money for their childrens education.


There are ways to make money of course work part time and study
but, those who do not have parents that pay for anything
are often in bad position regading how big the loan can grow.

I am saying why the loan is so little for many are that parents back them up
financially.


Here is one main budget worry for many parents in USA: How can I save enough money for the childrens studies?

I disagree.  I just graduated 3 years ago.  My last year of taking classes I could enroll full time at the local community college for less than 3k a semester.  Classes at the closest state school were roughly 6k for a full time semester.  Of course, that's commuting.  You are talking 12k for an associates and 24k for the bachelors...or roughly 36k spread out over 4 years and you could have your bachelors.  If you commute and work, and actually throw some money at school instead of wasting it on dumb stuff, its very possible to come in with less than 30k debt with no help from parents.(other than a free bedroom and dinner on occasion, which I suspect an overwhelming majority of parent's won't mind supplying when they see their kid working hard and trying to do well for himself)

Or just do what I did...I spread 2 degrees out over 10 years while working two part time jobs, and eventually one full time job averaging probably 30k during those years.  I bought a condo instead of throwing money away at a dorm.  Between writing off my tuition and mortgage interest I was getting decent tax returns those years, and at the end of 10 years I had equity in a home and was debt free...where as most the people who opted to go live somewhere on credit for 4 years were in much worse shape than I.  There are plenty of ways do avoid student debt that don't involve mom and dad, its just that they generally don't involve living on campus either.

I'm not denying some people luck out and have parents that pay for a good chunk of their schooling but my point is if you view college as what it is, a path to a better career, and don't get caught up in the hype of the college experience and wanting to live on campus at a fancy college and party and not work for 4 years, its not hard to make it through with no, or well below the average debt without help form anyone.

You obviously are wealthy and I am not even near poor for sure. That
said how about those parents that have say many children that want to study?

I'm not wealthy, my parent's didn't pay for any of my college, they made too much for me to qualify for any sort of aid, and I'm not a minority or a single mother so I didn't qualify for any easy to grab grants.  They told me when I was young, I better get scholarships if I want to go to college.  I screwed around in highschool and didn't get any scholarships, so I had to work extra hard to make up for it later on.  I had plenty of days where I was up at 3am to get ready for work and didn't get to bed until 11pm because I had to drive home after my night class got out at 10pm.  At 28 I ended up with an associates and a bachelors fully paid for, and that was even taking a few semesters off to avoid total burn out or I could have done it faster.  Refer to above numbers...36k / 10 = 3.6k per year.  That's not exactly an impossible amount for someone to come up with.

In the end it was a trade off.  It really sucked missing out on much of the "college experience."  I missed lot's of parties and and fun, but in the long run it put me in a much better position financially for the sacrifices I made, and any one of the morons who dug themselves into massive debt could have chose a cheaper school and made some of those exact same sacrifices but they chose not to.

If people want to have many kids, and want them all to attend college, do you know what they should tell them?  Exactly what my parent's told me, if you want to go to college, better get scholarships.  Its not a parent's job to cough up a boat load of cash so their kid can go live on campus somewhere and not work for 4 years.  The kids can take a non-traditional path like I did, or simply work nights and weekends and commute to minimize their debt load, or they always have the option of going in the military or getting into a trade...neither of those are bad options.  The average pay of trades these days is higher than most college grads make anyhow...I know where I work the welders and carpenters are making more than the engineers.  I also know plenty of electricians and plumbers, and most of them make more than the average nurse or teacher.  Of course the work is a little more manual and the schedule might be more hectic, but its still a good living.  The idea that everyone needs to go to college is simply ridiculous, especially with the amount of kids coming out with joke degrees.  As a society we have a need for a certain amount of unskilled/uneducated labor, we don't really need people with degrees doing these jobs, it just serves no purpose.  If I had a son that at 18 said he wanted to be a welder or a carpenter I'd high five him for being smart with the way things are these days, not push him to apply to 60k a year schools so he can go have the "college experience."
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 09:05:47 PM by SirFrugal »

Landlord2015

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #56 on: November 26, 2015, 08:17:19 AM »
SirFrugal I have to give congratulations for your personal success. Very nice that you have a degree student debt payed off and top of it a condo and the mortgage debt for the condo payed off.

I do know about frugal. In my country it does really NOT cost much to study but taxes are high though for an investment apartments interest you get full tax refund in my country Finland(Europe) but landlord tax is 30% but tax is calculated and you can deduct some running costs inlcuding water fee from income before they tax the gross income.

I know these forum is full of frugal posters. I have read about one dude that somehow(sounds like a fairytale) negotiated 0,1% interest with a bank.

Well here is  my achievment. I started seriously saving for an apartment at 18 years age(during study time I did work even with physical labor work whatever to EARN money at least during summers when study places in Europe take a break) and paid of (though small apartment in capitol area) my first mortgage in less then 4 years! This despite me not having good or super salary that I read many have on these forums. I had finished my 4 year engineer studies and also done my military service which took less then 1 year before paying of the first mortgage loan.

Today I rent 3 apartments in the capitol area.

You wanna talk frugal with me? I have never owned a car despite me having a driving license, but cars and fuel is more expensive in my country while bus or metro is decent price.

I did waste much money on buying Magic The Gathering cards, but I was fortunate in the last decade+ the prices have gone up so I have earned thousands of euro due to this
.

Sure I am not extreme frugal I do enjoy good Hollywood movies in the cinema pay for an expensive gym and make holidays and even those not every year holiday. My hotel or flights are usually not expensive(2 star hotel is good enough for me), but I can spend lots of money during my holiday sure I can have date with a lady in a nice restaurant as I did have in Kiev Ukraine.

About Ukraine and Kiev culture this music descibes it:
New Ukrainian Music Жаклин feat Тамерлан - Купи мне любовь
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1qBesZA8kU&feature=player_embedded

Moral police should not go there lol the Ukraine mob is in Kiev, but they don't kill tourists unless you are an idiot and make trouble. A warning the police force in Kiev is not your friend avoid them if they show a street is blocked then you don't go there!

Ukraine is not my favorite country to visit I enjoy more south Europe beaches electronic music including vocal trance, house and other electronic music etc and maybe I will visit middle Europe Germany for 5 stars clubs if you get my meaning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4hUias4kls

I believe I have maken my point clear that I can use lots of money though I really tend not to drink much alcohol that is not my style, but yeah slightly booze, but never to drunk specially if in another country.

My point being SirFrugal I respect your achievment we are many good frugal posters here. That said these 3 example people struggle despite working and despite schoolarship they struggle:
Scholarslip: A documentary about the student debt crisis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFY-PgPA-Uk

You are absolutely right about that we don't need so many students and that physical labor is underestimated in income. However while I am talented at computers I really suck if I would try a car repair and my talent does not lie withing building houses despite me being a landlord.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 03:25:51 AM by Landlord2015 »

therethere

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #57 on: November 27, 2015, 09:31:57 AM »
First off, congrats to all you hardworking people that came out of school with no loans. But PLEASE stop acting high and mighty because you had people guiding you in your youth.

Secondly, not all people who came out with crazy high in student loans are lazy/dumb people with stupid degrees, that spend all their money on vacations and fancy crap. So please stop spreading this bull. Yes, some people did that. But others did not and they still end up in the same position. I worked 2-3 jobs in the summer. Lived in an off campus apartment with poor heat and no car. Worked part time and later full time through school. I went on no vacations, ate boxed mac and cheese or ramen, no cable, no entertainment spending money (maybe a 12 pack of natty light on the weekends?), no fancy electronics, I think you get the point...

I graduated with around 80k in loans from undergraduate. I did compare tuition slightly at the time and the school started out not much higher than other colleges I applied to when considering aid. But let's see how this can easily stack up. Numbers are slightly falsified but should prove the point (tuition annual increase percentages are correct). Please don't nitpick the exact numbers this is just an example.

First year - Tuition is not that much more than other universities when considering financial aid. 12k in loans taken out. 40k tuition.
2nd year - SURPRISE tuition goes up 7%. Aid stays the same. Move off campus to shitty $350/month apartment with poor heat and open wiring. Work part time all year in school, no car to get jobs off campus. Work 2-3 jobs over the summer to save up money. Tuition increases to 42800. Aid stays the same. 14800 in loans taken out, 750 in interest accumulated.
3rd year - SURPRISE tuition goes up another 5%. Aid stays the same. Realize college is expensive but talk to admissions. None of the credits are transferable thanks to the "unique" amount of credits per course and alternative schedule in place of semesters. If you leave now, you have to start from the near beginning at another college..... Tuition increases to 45500, aid stays the same. 17350 in loans to take out + 3350 in interest accumulated on loans.
4th year - Almost there. Tuition increases 8%  to 49000. Aid stays the same. 21000 in loans taken out plus 6250 interest. Everything else above remains the same. Work 40 hours in internship that you have to drive 1hr each way to.

Total Costs
Yr 1 - 12,750
Yr2 - 16,550
Yr3 - 20,715
Yr4 - 27,275
Total = 77,275!!!!

So yeah, a school that doesn't look so bad when you agree to go. Balloons out of control very quickly.... Yes, I went to an expensive engineering school. I did get a good job out of college. I even skipped graduation so I could start full time work within 1 week of completing my coursework. I did work jobs throughout school. I did not go on fancy pants vacations or buy the newest whatever. I was not 21 until halfway through senior year so I did not waste all my money at bars. Tuition increases and interest accumulated on loans accounted for almost 30k of my loans.

I refinanced my student loans with Earnest and cut 1% off my rate. PM me for a referral with $200 credit.

Camarillo Brillo

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #58 on: November 27, 2015, 10:11:40 AM »
<snip>
4th year - Almost there. Tuition increases 8%  to 49000. Aid stays the same. 21000 in loans taken out plus 6250 interest. Everything else above remains the same. Work 40 hours in internship that you have to drive 1hr each way to.

<snip?
Holy shit!  Tuition alone was $49K??   What were your entire expenses for that last year of school?  By the time you add in books, rent, food, etc. it must have been insane.  Congrats on doing it all while racking up just $77K in loans.  Seriously.  Well done.  I'm sure your degree landed you a pretty lucrative job so I suspect you'll have the loans paid off asap.


Landlord2015

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #60 on: November 29, 2015, 05:51:32 AM »
First off, congrats to all you hardworking people that came out of school with no loans. But PLEASE stop acting high and mighty because you had people guiding you in your youth.
Oh yeah me and SirFrugal are proud people to some degree. That said nether of us are millionaires(at least not yet) if you really wanna be envious on people there are tons of millionaires out there in the world.

I do feel sympathy toward those who have student or study loans.

SofaKing while your post is informative and good link to interesting stories thread I don't agree with you. Shameful? Shameful is if yor for example do hard crime example murder or rape.

True not all those decisions what they have done are wise and what is odd I think is those horrible interest rates that some pay for their loans. Example 7-9% loan interest rate?!

Please also stop saying this is YOUNG peoples problem.

Read this story(not mine I have no study debt and I am from Europe).
"
I was fortunate enough to have parents who paid my tuition in undergrad. The deal was I would work to support myself and they would pay for the classes. I worked 40 hours a week as a server at Old Chicago and made it out debt-free. My degree was in Psychology and so I was anxious to get out into the world and help people and contribute to the community. I would stay up every night working on cover letters and resumes, researching open positions, and networking through family friends but even with a Bachelors degree I really struggled to find a job where I felt as though I was contributing to the community in a way that matched up with my gifts and skills. It felt like I had the same employment opportunities after my degree as I did before. I kept working as a server and filled my free time with unpaid internships in domestic violence shelters, youth programs, and religious organizations. After working with homeless youth at Urban Peak for several months I decided to earn my Master of Divinity and pursue ordination in The United Methodist denomination. Although I received a scholarship that eliminated half of my tuition costs, I still graduated with $75,000 in student loans. Then I married a fellow seminarian who had undergrad and graduate student loan debt. The combination of our student loan debt eleven years after graduating from seminary is over 250k. I am an ordained United Methodist Clergy working in Denver, Colorado and my husband serves at a church in Littleton, Colorado. We have a beautiful 7 year old daughter with special needs and a sweet dog named Tracey. While we don't make a lot, I do feel like we make enough if it wasn't for our student debt. A family friend had researched the Student Loan Forgiveness Program for us and for awhile we were on that track until a footnote was added to the legislation disqualifying us from participating due to our professions being religious in nature. I understand the motive behind the exclusion but I also feel saddened by it. As a United Methodist pastor I see my role and the role of my congregation doing so much good in the community without expectation or even mention of conversion. I have felt a lot of shame for the debt we carry and our inability to pay it back. Sometimes I cry because its so overwhelming and I can't get a hold of it. I think about changing careers because maybe in a corporate job I could make more. I know what I do matters more than the money I make but I also have a desire to be able to contribute and to pay back all my loans it's just not possible and really is hopeless. We will never own a home or pay off our loans but I am proud that we will make a difference in this world and in the lives of people who have had a tragedy or feel lost or unloved. We will feed the hungry and cloth the cold and listen to the lonely because we are Christians, not because they are or aren't. At the end of the day, I remind myself of the ways I do contribute to this world and I ask for grace in the midst of falling short on the expectation that we will ever be out from underneath all we borrowed to get us there.
"

"
The combination of our student loan debt eleven years after graduating from seminary is over 250k.
"
What is even more horrible is that due to religious work they were neglected the forgiveness. I would understand if neglected for some other reasons or simply denied, but saying since you have religion that is wrong. Another proof that Evil atheism and Satanism is growing though I don't mean atheists are satanists.

Look I am certainly not even near Saint myself(and I have done military service and would be willing to kill in case of war), but I do believe in God and Jesus. Evil in movies i.e for example Horror or Action or in music can be cool, but in real life not nice.


« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 11:22:29 AM by Landlord2015 »

Trimatty471

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's str
« Reply #61 on: November 30, 2015, 05:19:08 PM »

Great advice! Graduating into the recession of the early '90s...


Is it because we were such a small chunk of the population (not Boomers or Millennials) that people just don't remember how horrible it was for students and new grads from about '89-93?  It's like that recession never happened or something.  With that and Iraq War Part 1 underway, it felt like the end of the fucking world.  Parents were very much not accepting and not okay with 20-something olds  (mostly unemployed with student loans) moving back home to live.  Young people communed together like rats--couch-surfing everywhere, pooling money for beer/smokes, making occasional trips to food banks...  Recent grads lucky enough to find a job were all doing stuff like waitressing, hotel night clerk, dishwashing, all that fun stuff an unemployed teenager could do.  And now I sound like a cranky old man saying, "Back in my day it was bad, blah, blah, blah..,"  But I'm tired of people saying, "You had it easy, blah, blah, blah..."

I graduated high school in 93.  That was the year both of my parents got layed off.  It was hard for me as a teen to find a job because those McJobs that usually went to teens were being taken by seniors.

Trimatty471

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #62 on: November 30, 2015, 05:39:33 PM »
I graduated a state university in 1997 with a $17k loan.  I managed to pay for college via grants (parents were unemployed my first year), scholarship, work study and loans.  It took me 5 years and living at home to pay off my student loans.

I chose the school based on my ability to pay back the loans.   That is a crock that these 18 year old kids shouldn't be allowed to take out loans. 

From my observation, the reasons why they are so in over their heads is:

Went to "designer universities"
Used their loan money for parties, cars, shopping sprees, Spring Break & etc., fancy apartments
Majored in studies that would gain jobs in low paying careers aka passion majors

SirFrugal

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #63 on: November 30, 2015, 06:53:55 PM »
I graduated a state university in 1997 with a $17k loan.  I managed to pay for college via grants (parents were unemployed my first year), scholarship, work study and loans.  It took me 5 years and living at home to pay off my student loans.

I chose the school based on my ability to pay back the loans.   That is a crock that these 18 year old kids shouldn't be allowed to take out loans. 

From my observation, the reasons why they are so in over their heads is:

Went to "designer universities"
Used their loan money for parties, cars, shopping sprees, Spring Break & etc., fancy apartments
Majored in studies that would gain jobs in low paying careers aka passion majors

Thanks for sharing your experience.  I graduated high school in 2002, and college in 2010 and again in 2012, and I can assure you that your observations are accurate.  I watched people do those very things you say, which is why the thought of bailing out college loans absolutely disgusts me.  Even post graduation, I've yet to stumble across someone who can't afford to pay back their student loans who doesn't have a smart phone with a data package, and the reality is if they shut it off they could save 100 bucks a month, and 100 bucks a month thrown at the principal of your student loans could shave years off the payback time, and that is just one small sacrifice they could make to get debt free.  I also know plenty that want to have their own apartment even though a room mate could save a few hundred a month, and who go take out car loans soon as they graduate, because hey, they deserve it, right?

Somebody is going to have to pay for it...and I'd rather have it be the people who signed on the dotted line, who in many cases refuse to make any sacrifices at all to pay their debts, rather than it becoming a burden of the tax payers, which in many cases is people like you and I who made our sacrifices and paid our dues already.

Lady Fordragon

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #64 on: November 30, 2015, 07:51:19 PM »
I graduated a state university in 1997 with a $17k loan.  I managed to pay for college via grants (parents were unemployed my first year), scholarship, work study and loans.  It took me 5 years and living at home to pay off my student loans.

I chose the school based on my ability to pay back the loans.   That is a crock that these 18 year old kids shouldn't be allowed to take out loans. 

From my observation, the reasons why they are so in over their heads is:

Went to "designer universities"
Used their loan money for parties, cars, shopping sprees, Spring Break & etc., fancy apartments
Majored in studies that would gain jobs in low paying careers aka passion majors

Thanks for sharing your experience.  I graduated high school in 2002, and college in 2010 and again in 2012, and I can assure you that your observations are accurate.  I watched people do those very things you say, which is why the thought of bailing out college loans absolutely disgusts me.  Even post graduation, I've yet to stumble across someone who can't afford to pay back their student loans who doesn't have a smart phone with a data package, and the reality is if they shut it off they could save 100 bucks a month, and 100 bucks a month thrown at the principal of your student loans could shave years off the payback time, and that is just one small sacrifice they could make to get debt free.  I also know plenty that want to have their own apartment even though a room mate could save a few hundred a month, and who go take out car loans soon as they graduate, because hey, they deserve it, right?

Somebody is going to have to pay for it...and I'd rather have it be the people who signed on the dotted line, who in many cases refuse to make any sacrifices at all to pay their debts, rather than it becoming a burden of the tax payers, which in many cases is people like you and I who made our sacrifices and paid our dues already.

+1
Debt-free since November 2013!  :-)

FI(RE) by 2020!
Our journey to FI:  http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/five-years-to-fi-for-the-fordragons!/msg713545/#msg713545

SirFrugal

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #65 on: November 30, 2015, 09:49:43 PM »
First off, congrats to all you hardworking people that came out of school with no loans. But PLEASE stop acting high and mighty because you had people guiding you in your youth.

Secondly, not all people who came out with crazy high in student loans are lazy/dumb people with stupid degrees, that spend all their money on vacations and fancy crap. So please stop spreading this bull. Yes, some people did that. But others did not and they still end up in the same position. I worked 2-3 jobs in the summer. Lived in an off campus apartment with poor heat and no car. Worked part time and later full time through school. I went on no vacations, ate boxed mac and cheese or ramen, no cable, no entertainment spending money (maybe a 12 pack of natty light on the weekends?), no fancy electronics, I think you get the point...

I graduated with around 80k in loans from undergraduate. I did compare tuition slightly at the time and the school started out not much higher than other colleges I applied to when considering aid. But let's see how this can easily stack up. Numbers are slightly falsified but should prove the point (tuition annual increase percentages are correct). Please don't nitpick the exact numbers this is just an example.

First year - Tuition is not that much more than other universities when considering financial aid. 12k in loans taken out. 40k tuition.
2nd year - SURPRISE tuition goes up 7%. Aid stays the same. Move off campus to shitty $350/month apartment with poor heat and open wiring. Work part time all year in school, no car to get jobs off campus. Work 2-3 jobs over the summer to save up money. Tuition increases to 42800. Aid stays the same. 14800 in loans taken out, 750 in interest accumulated.
3rd year - SURPRISE tuition goes up another 5%. Aid stays the same. Realize college is expensive but talk to admissions. None of the credits are transferable thanks to the "unique" amount of credits per course and alternative schedule in place of semesters. If you leave now, you have to start from the near beginning at another college..... Tuition increases to 45500, aid stays the same. 17350 in loans to take out + 3350 in interest accumulated on loans.
4th year - Almost there. Tuition increases 8%  to 49000. Aid stays the same. 21000 in loans taken out plus 6250 interest. Everything else above remains the same. Work 40 hours in internship that you have to drive 1hr each way to.

Total Costs
Yr 1 - 12,750
Yr2 - 16,550
Yr3 - 20,715
Yr4 - 27,275
Total = 77,275!!!!

So yeah, a school that doesn't look so bad when you agree to go. Balloons out of control very quickly.... Yes, I went to an expensive engineering school. I did get a good job out of college. I even skipped graduation so I could start full time work within 1 week of completing my coursework. I did work jobs throughout school. I did not go on fancy pants vacations or buy the newest whatever. I was not 21 until halfway through senior year so I did not waste all my money at bars. Tuition increases and interest accumulated on loans accounted for almost 30k of my loans.

Bro you still went to a school charging 40k a year for tuition alone.  I'm not feeling bad for you when I commuted to a community college because it was costing me less than 1/10th of that, even at 18 I knew the different between 40k and 4k.  State colleges here are around 1/4 of that.  You could have done it a lot cheaper if you chose a different school...but grats on at least getting a marketable degree with good job prospects!

mm1970

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2015, 11:04:02 AM »
My kids both went to community college for their first 2 years and then lived at home and finished up at the local university.  We paid for their entire education and my husband and I did not make a lot of money.  It can be done.  But, too many kids want to go away for college to the most expensive Universities.  Unless their parents are willing to pay for it, it should be off the table.

Personally, I don't think kids should be allowed to take out huge student loans for college.  Kids under 21 do not make the best decisions about things and then when they do wise up, (if they ever do) they are suddenly saddled with huge amounts of debt. 

Parents are not very helpful either about steering their kids into fields that will pay decent money. 

                                                                                       Miss Prim
This is interesting because I whisper this to my kids while they sleep.  My husband says "no way, they need to go away for college".  (Because we did.)  But you know, we both were on ROTC scholarships.

Anyway, at this point we can pay cash for wherever our kids want to go.  That doesn't mean I'd rather steer them towards in-state schools, vs. Cornell, for example.

mm1970

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2015, 11:07:40 AM »

Great advice! Graduating into the recession of the early '90s...


Is it because we were such a small chunk of the population (not Boomers or Millennials) that people just don't remember how horrible it was for students and new grads from about '89-93?  It's like that recession never happened or something.  With that and Iraq War Part 1 underway, it felt like the end of the fucking world.  Parents were very much not accepting and not okay with 20-something olds  (mostly unemployed with student loans) moving back home to live.  Young people communed together like rats--couch-surfing everywhere, pooling money for beer/smokes, making occasional trips to food banks...  Recent grads lucky enough to find a job were all doing stuff like waitressing, hotel night clerk, dishwashing, all that fun stuff an unemployed teenager could do.  And now I sound like a cranky old man saying, "Back in my day it was bad, blah, blah, blah..,"  But I'm tired of people saying, "You had it easy, blah, blah, blah..."
Yes!  So I graduated in 1992 and went into the Navy.  In '92, in my area (Chemical engineering), people were just fine on the job front.

But one of my sorority sisters majored in math and graduated in '91. She spent a year temping.  We ended up rooming together in DC, but it took her more than a year to get a full time, non-temp job.  And by then she was competing with new grads.

SirFrugal

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2015, 02:35:27 PM »
This is interesting because I whisper this to my kids while they sleep.  My husband says "no way, they need to go away for college".  (Because we did.)  But you know, we both were on ROTC scholarships.

Anyway, at this point we can pay cash for wherever our kids want to go.  That doesn't mean I'd rather steer them towards in-state schools, vs. Cornell, for example.

I had a friend who had parent's that will pretty loaded...I'd be surprised if they were worth less than 5 million by 60.  When we graduated high school his parent's told him "We saved xxx dollars for you to go to college.  You can go to whatever school you want.  If there is anything left when you finish your bachelors degree it is yours to keep."

He chose to commute to a state school and pocket the remainder.  I thought they were insane for doing that at the time, but looking back at it now I realize it was actually pure brilliance.  What better way to have your kid not want to go to an over priced college and giving him a head start in life than to basically give him incentive to go to a more affordable college and make him think it was his idea.

Landlord2015

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2015, 12:10:59 PM »
Choosing a fancy school can be part vanity and the crowd of friends and girlfriends..

Have I ever done a vanity thing? Buying in year 2014 an apartment built in 2014 that is my vanity treat. Tired of saying my old apartment needs that repair.

Being landlord is party vanity but... here as I see it in my country since you can not get huge study debts and good social benefits if you are a renter and on't own any real estate or have big savings or stock or other investment those are
LOWER MIDDLE CLASS in my country.

LOWER class is very rare in my country, but yeah a drug addict that uses all the money to drugs and can thus even risk of not eating enough food is lower class in my country.

In my mind to be upper class in my country you need to be millionaire as assets-liabilities > 1000 000 euro.

What class are the 1% in USA? Lets not go there those are the unrealistic goal to achieve for the forummembers.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 12:16:32 PM by Landlord2015 »

Landlord2015

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2015, 01:17:36 PM »
Ok posting on topic...

These documentary is slightly old:
The College Conspiracy Full Documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAV17Li1pkM
but if today tuition can cost 40k+

Stop saying you can not go to private school. This is a problem in USA though you still have low tax.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 01:19:09 PM by Landlord2015 »

mm1970

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2015, 04:16:29 PM »
This is interesting because I whisper this to my kids while they sleep.  My husband says "no way, they need to go away for college".  (Because we did.)  But you know, we both were on ROTC scholarships.

Anyway, at this point we can pay cash for wherever our kids want to go.  That doesn't mean I'd rather steer them towards in-state schools, vs. Cornell, for example.

I had a friend who had parent's that will pretty loaded...I'd be surprised if they were worth less than 5 million by 60.  When we graduated high school his parent's told him "We saved xxx dollars for you to go to college.  You can go to whatever school you want.  If there is anything left when you finish your bachelors degree it is yours to keep."

He chose to commute to a state school and pocket the remainder.  I thought they were insane for doing that at the time, but looking back at it now I realize it was actually pure brilliance.  What better way to have your kid not want to go to an over priced college and giving him a head start in life than to basically give him incentive to go to a more affordable college and make him think it was his idea.
Some of my husband's family friends did the same.  They both chose a state school (in a different state, but one that allowed you to get in-state tuition after a year).

MrsPete

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #72 on: December 08, 2015, 07:57:46 AM »
It's no wonder that student loan debt is out of control. We're asking people to make the biggest financial decision of their lives at the age of 17! Of course they're going to screw it up.

It boggles the mind that you have to be 21 to play a $5 hand of blackjack in Vegas, but a 17 year old can strap on $100,000 of student loan debt and nobody seems to care.
That IS a good way to look at it. 
If that were the case, I would be back in my hometown right now shoveling pig shit for minimum wage. Not everyone had the same experiences that you and your children have had. Not everyone has parents that can pay for or are even the least bit knowledgeable about these things. Some of us were actively discouraged from even looking at college, let alone given any encouragement, sensible guidance, or let alone money. Grants, student loans, summer jobs, and college work study programs were a godsend to me and to millions of others.
And I'd be your co-worker.  Your co-shoveler.  However, I didn't borrow.  Being uncertain that tomorrow would be better than today /being uncertain that my ability to pay would be better tomorrow, I was always afraid (rightfully so) of borrowing.  I didn't finish in four years, I worked more than was healthy, and I lived in dangerous places, but I made it through college in spite of -- as you say -- being actively discouraged from higher education. 


Koreth

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #73 on: December 08, 2015, 10:54:17 AM »
I just want to clarify some points here that I think are distorting the conversation.  First of a 17 year old cannot takeout 100s of thousands of dollars in loans.  As per the Federal Student Aid site dependent first year students are limited to $5,500 a year increasing until you are third year and beyond at $7,500 a year.  After that then those become private loans that required a co-signer, ie parent, to get the 30-50k first year loan amounts everyone is quoting.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/types/loans/subsidized-unsubsidized


That's assuming one's parents can get PLUS loans. Not all parents can, nor does every student fall into the 'dependent' student category. The borrowing limits for 'independent' students are higher. Factor in capitalized interest on unsubsidised loans while the student is in school, and an 'independent' 4-year undergrad student who borrows the subsidized and unsubsidised max can graduate with almost $50k of debt. And should our hypothetical graduate have to use his deferment or forbearance options, interest continues to capitalize, not just on his subsidized loans, but on his unsubsidised loans now as well.

And as you said, that's just the federal loans.

Landlord2015

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #74 on: December 09, 2015, 11:24:46 AM »
It's no wonder that student loan debt is out of control. We're asking people to make the biggest financial decision of their lives at the age of 17! Of course they're going to screw it up.

It boggles the mind that you have to be 21 to play a $5 hand of blackjack in Vegas, but a 17 year old can strap on $100,000 of student loan debt and nobody seems to care.
That IS a good way to look at it. 
If that were the case, I would be back in my hometown right now shoveling pig shit for minimum wage. Not everyone had the same experiences that you and your children have had. Not everyone has parents that can pay for or are even the least bit knowledgeable about these things. Some of us were actively discouraged from even looking at college, let alone given any encouragement, sensible guidance, or let alone money. Grants, student loans, summer jobs, and college work study programs were a godsend to me and to millions of others.
And I'd be your co-worker.  Your co-shoveler.  However, I didn't borrow.  Being uncertain that tomorrow would be better than today /being uncertain that my ability to pay would be better tomorrow, I was always afraid (rightfully so) of borrowing.  I didn't finish in four years, I worked more than was healthy, and I lived in dangerous places, but I made it through college in spite of -- as you say -- being actively discouraged from higher education.
Shovering pig shit? I don't do that bad work but it is a bitter smile that I have!

IT career SUCKS in Finland. I am engineer in IT(data-communication) and I work part time and it ain't IT!

I am in Marketing&Sales with a merciless cruel boss. My boss usually fires new recruits in less then 2 weeks!

My wage? It is ok and not minimum salary and I need the money... it is more then that doing enough part time work exactly 26 weeks of minimum 18+ hours works does reboot your good social unemployment benefit unless you drop to low unemployment benefit which is HORRIBLE.

Fortunately for me whole year 2016 I will not drop to that state and if I reboot before that the countdown starts from 0. Wonderful system if you manage to get at least part time work!

The system in Finland works smartly having part time work is 100 times better then no work!

Oh if you count landlording I have 2 part time workplaces.

I am doing fine though this is my 18th/26 week and it would not matter if I would get fired I would take another job in 2016 and then the first week in that job would be 19/26.

Oddly I seem to have a talent for marketing&sales.

You can joke all you want, but I don't smile when I mention my work and my merciless boss.

Funny you mentioned PIGS... my mentor JEDI MASTER an expert teacher for entreprenurs said to me I have 4 options:
A. Move abroad where you can find realistically good IT workplace.
B. Become an entreprenur! I did start an entreprenur course on Tuesday this week which is held 2 evenings/week. I know personally the teacher from before.
C. Continue what I do... do part time work and buy more investment apartments i.e rental income!
D. Do become a PIG have so much passive income that you never need to do work... this term used my JEDI MASTER entrepreneur teacher since he consider it the lazy way. He did not insult with it more meant as teasing and yeah only a minority considers this group as pigs.

D option is realistic for me in future, but not yet. I want very high lifestyle and not some frugal life!

D PIG here has no limit when it comes to booze or hookers i.e the Roman orgie every weekend way IF that is the pigs wishes ,but it is subjective what expenisve wish people have. The PIG is not some frugal or environmentalist that a minority of forum members seem to be about.

Being frugal is ok while trying become wealthy. However in PIG state that time should be over and in the past!

Let me explain a PIG female might buy that expensive jewelery costing 20k-50k. I am not meaing hording jewelery like a millionaire that wants to spend big time, but crystal clear wealthy for sure.

What might I buy as PIG? To many times sex mentioned right?
Well a Ferrari is darn cool car for sure! That said problem is a new Ferrari is huge cost 240 000-330 000$.

Well I am a gamer but lately I haver used frugally and old computer.
I would buy top end Intel SKYLAKE CPU and excellent NVIDIA graphic card and 16 GB RAM if becoming pig today!

The list goes on I don't mean to buy every wish. but at last some wishes though that Ferrari is super expensive.

On the other hand I have seen a Ferrari on the motorway and it was darn fast you can not compare that to a normal car!

Perhaps that is why I don't own a car despite having driving license. Since I like to drive really fast and I am not fond of mediocre cars.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 01:43:45 PM by Landlord2015 »

Wilson Hall

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #75 on: December 09, 2015, 02:00:18 PM »
This is interesting because I whisper this to my kids while they sleep.  My husband says "no way, they need to go away for college".  (Because we did.)  But you know, we both were on ROTC scholarships.

Anyway, at this point we can pay cash for wherever our kids want to go.  That doesn't mean I'd rather steer them towards in-state schools, vs. Cornell, for example.

I had a friend who had parent's that will pretty loaded...I'd be surprised if they were worth less than 5 million by 60.  When we graduated high school his parent's told him "We saved xxx dollars for you to go to college.  You can go to whatever school you want.  If there is anything left when you finish your bachelors degree it is yours to keep."

He chose to commute to a state school and pocket the remainder.  I thought they were insane for doing that at the time, but looking back at it now I realize it was actually pure brilliance.  What better way to have your kid not want to go to an over priced college and giving him a head start in life than to basically give him incentive to go to a more affordable college and make him think it was his idea.
Some of my husband's family friends did the same.  They both chose a state school (in a different state, but one that allowed you to get in-state tuition after a year).

Smart families. Much smarter than, say, the ones around here who pressured their kids to accept a 3/4 or full-tuition scholarship to a local university in exchange for a new car.

Starting in the mid-late '90s, some states flush with revenue began offering very generous merit-based scholarships to any in-state high school graduate with a GPA of 3.5, give or take. Great idea on the surface, but plenty of parents undermined any future mustachianism in their offspring by dangling those car keys. Locals referred to it as the "BMW scholarship."

Cgbg

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #76 on: December 09, 2015, 02:07:14 PM »
As parents, DH and I always told our kids that we'd pay for one of the two state universities or the equivalent amount. As the kids approached high school, we made sure to let them know that they could go out of state but only if they closed the gap between the actual cost and what we were willing to pay with merit money, not loans.

We've been really lucky- both of our kids are high achievers. The oldest has taken 7 college classes for a total of 45 transferable credits (quarter) as well as a bunch of dual enrollment credits that may or may not transfer. He's a senior this year - straight A student and has taken more math in high school then dh and I had to take to get our engineering degrees. He's also done two summer research internships. It's paid off so far - one university that he's targeted for his intended major has offered him a four year full tuition scholarship, regardless of what major he ends up in. That's at least $120k total for four years that we don't pay but really it's just a $60k savings for us.

There's no way he should start at a community college. He can go away for four years for about $10k/year. (He's also in the running for a full ride from that university, so our actual costs could end up being a few plane tickets back and forth.)

I think this is the first year where our state high school graduates can attend community college for two years virtually free. No way am I going to send my kid there, because he already has cleared quite a few starter classes. It isn't worth it because I'd likely have to shell out the full cost of a state school for the last two years- and that's roughly $40k right there.

I may be buying him an MMM-approved car with the savings upon graduation from college. Seems somewhat fair. We still keep a big portion of $ that we intended to spend.