Author Topic: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[  (Read 20122 times)

M237

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Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« on: November 09, 2015, 10:11:06 PM »
I saw this link on my friends FB status.
https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3rw2nw/til_student_loans_have_passed_credit_cards_and/

It is under reddit's TIL (Today I Learned)
TIL-student loans have passed credit cards and auto loans to become the second biggest source of personal debt in the U.S., trailing only mortgages. The post is 2 days old and has 6k+ comments.

I'll try to summarize it as best as possible. They talk about a lot of different things
  • They talk about the education system.
    Over-priced tuition. Inflation does not account for the drastic increase in tuition. Professors don't even get paid that much. Administration takes the money or its spent on upkeep. (Some college campuses look SUPER nice) It's nearly impossible to go to college without getting a loan. A lot of degrees are not worth it. Education has been sold as the key to financial freedom and predatory lending was born to poach on those who bought into that dream. Some talked about jobs vs careers. It might be more financially sensible to not go to college. But some jobs are just crappy; over-worked, underpaid and disrespected.
  • They talk about real estate.
    Housing in Boston is insane. All of the normal people are moving away. All the rich folks are buying up houses and all the poor folks have to rent. Eventually the rich will own everything and the poor will have nothing. House prices are too expensive for the average person to afford
  • They talk about other stuff
    Young people are struggling to pay off student loans. Hardly anyone is focus on retirement. A whole generation is set up to fail. The generation doesn't even vote, not even at the local level.
    There is a debt system that is making slaves out of us. The borrower is a slave to the lender. 

I'm about 3/4 of the way through. Overall it has a strange vibe to it. A mix of anger, disappointment, sadness, and despair even.

I use to feel the same way. Back in undergrad I could feel the weight of the financial system bearing down on me. My parents helped with housing and I had to pay for everything else. Busting my butt working for minimum wage totally sucked. My parents told me about the Rat Race. I desperately wanted a way out. I didn't think my college degree would cut it. I thought there has to be some sort of secret. There was all of this talk about 'doing what you love', 'F 9-5, dont be a drone', 'entrepreneurship' and 'passive income'. My parents did the best they could with what they knew, yet I still felt like something was lacking.  I just needed someone to show me a way!

Turns out I was lacking the mindset and a few key pointers. Thanks to MMM I found what I needed. (Well and also the wonders and possibility of real estate, but that's another story). In short I'm definitely grateful that I found MMM, his fellow financial freedom bloggers and this forum. Y'all are awesome

Changing someone's perspective is always hard. I'll let MMM and his blogs do that. Afterwards you still need the tools (financial education) and the personal desire to follow through with it. So to help out with the financial education I made a power point (shameless promotion here). I post it on an earlier thread and got a lot of feedback from you guys and friends. I haven't had a chance to update it yet but I will soon!

Other than this, what are your thoughts about the struggle and agonies of the non-Mustachians?

Sailor Sam

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2015, 11:17:48 PM »
Hereís my personal anecdote. Iím financially stable because of good education and some innate personality quirks. Yay me!

BUT Iím also one of the umpteen-million chubby Americanís currently in existence. Even worse, the fat is in my belly. Iím perfectly aware that I have all the resources I need to be skinnier, and that people judge me for being visibly overweight, and that my life expectancy is shortened, and that my weight is free reign for perfect strangers to lecture me. Yet here I sit, overweight, because I repeatedly fail at emphasizing the long term goal of being lean over the short term pleasure of eating left over halloween candy for lunch.

When I think about people in financial difficulties I really try to remember that every life has itís agonies, and we could all practice being less judgmental.

patrickza

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2015, 11:30:07 PM »
Hereís my personal anecdote. Iím financially stable because of good education and some innate personality quirks. Yay me!

BUT Iím also one of the umpteen-million chubby Americanís currently in existence. Even worse, the fat is in my belly. Iím perfectly aware that I have all the resources I need to be skinnier, and that people judge me for being visibly overweight, and that my life expectancy is shortened, and that my weight is free reign for perfect strangers to lecture me. Yet here I sit, overweight, because I repeatedly fail at emphasizing the long term goal of being lean over the short term pleasure of eating left over halloween candy for lunch.

When I think about people in financial difficulties I really try to remember that every life has itís agonies, and we could all practice being less judgmental.
Very well put... We all struggle with something, but it is so satisfying when you beat your personal struggles. Good luck.

WildJager

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2015, 05:34:54 AM »
Hereís my personal anecdote. Iím financially stable because of good education and some innate personality quirks. Yay me!

BUT Iím also one of the umpteen-million chubby Americanís currently in existence. Even worse, the fat is in my belly. Iím perfectly aware that I have all the resources I need to be skinnier, and that people judge me for being visibly overweight, and that my life expectancy is shortened, and that my weight is free reign for perfect strangers to lecture me. Yet here I sit, overweight, because I repeatedly fail at emphasizing the long term goal of being lean over the short term pleasure of eating left over halloween candy for lunch.

When I think about people in financial difficulties I really try to remember that every life has itís agonies, and we could all practice being less judgmental.

Poor processed food readily available, legal drugs, lifestyles built for convenience (cars, delivery, etc), and retail therapy (boosted with insane advertising) make it beyond challenging for people to avoid all of these vices.  We are creatures based on habit and instinct.  When those instincts are screwed with for profit, the onus may not necessarily fall on the individual.  We need to take a hard look at the direction our global society is going, and decide collectively if this is really how we want to live.  Immediate gratification vs long term health is really the issue at question.

Miss Prim

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2015, 05:42:09 AM »
My kids both went to community college for their first 2 years and then lived at home and finished up at the local university.  We paid for their entire education and my husband and I did not make a lot of money.  It can be done.  But, too many kids want to go away for college to the most expensive Universities.  Unless their parents are willing to pay for it, it should be off the table.

Personally, I don't think kids should be allowed to take out huge student loans for college.  Kids under 21 do not make the best decisions about things and then when they do wise up, (if they ever do) they are suddenly saddled with huge amounts of debt. 

Parents are not very helpful either about steering their kids into fields that will pay decent money. 

                                                                                       Miss Prim

ChaseJuggler

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2015, 05:44:51 AM »
It's no wonder that student loan debt is out of control. We're asking people to make the biggest financial decision of their lives at the age of 17! Of course they're going to screw it up.

It boggles the mind that you have to be 21 to play a $5 hand of blackjack in Vegas, but a 17 year old can strap on $100,000 of student loan debt and nobody seems to care.

Pooplips

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2015, 05:50:38 AM »
It's no wonder that student loan debt is out of control. We're asking people to make the biggest financial decision of their lives at the age of 17! Of course they're going to screw it up.

It boggles the mind that you have to be 21 to play a $5 hand of blackjack in Vegas, but a 17 year old can strap on $100,000 of student loan debt and nobody seems to care.

Wow. I have never thought of it that way.

Eric222

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2015, 06:18:35 AM »
  • They talk about real estate.
    Housing in Boston is insane. All of the normal people are moving away. All the rich folks are buying up houses and all the poor folks have to rent. Eventually the rich will own everything and the poor will have nothing. House prices are too expensive for the average person to afford

Housing in Boston is kind of insane. Still, my biggest annoyance with my rent is that I live a bit further out (not in one of the 'fancy' neighborhoods) and if it rent were lower my SR would go up.  If I lived where I want to live...damn, rent would be high!

Kris

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2015, 06:37:26 AM »
It's no wonder that student loan debt is out of control. We're asking people to make the biggest financial decision of their lives at the age of 17! Of course they're going to screw it up.

It boggles the mind that you have to be 21 to play a $5 hand of blackjack in Vegas, but a 17 year old can strap on $100,000 of student loan debt and nobody seems to care.

Not to mention that student loans are loans taken out by people with no proven ability to pay them back, no credit rating, no collateral... and they cannot be gotten rid of in a bankruptcy. And a student can pretty much take out unlimited loans, to the low-to-mid six figures.  The conditions for lending are unlike any other type of loan.

ash7962

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2015, 07:35:48 AM »
It's no wonder that student loan debt is out of control. We're asking people to make the biggest financial decision of their lives at the age of 17! Of course they're going to screw it up.

It boggles the mind that you have to be 21 to play a $5 hand of blackjack in Vegas, but a 17 year old can strap on $100,000 of student loan debt and nobody seems to care.

Not to mention that student loans are loans taken out by people with no proven ability to pay them back, no credit rating, no collateral... and they cannot be gotten rid of in a bankruptcy. And a student can pretty much take out unlimited loans, to the low-to-mid six figures.  The conditions for lending are unlike any other type of loan.

Also, how many 17 year olds know what their passions really are?  I'm sure some do, but I didn't start figuring that out until I was 23-24 (26 now).  When I was 17 I felt so much pressure to choose something to do for the rest of my life, and I had no idea what to pick.  I also felt very pressured just to go to college and it didn't matter what I did as long as I went.  Luckily I liked programming enough to pursue computer science.  Other than comp sci I was thinking about doing French as a major.  I could have easily fallen into the trap of getting a "passion" degree that I'd have trouble finding a job for (and turns out I'm not actually that passionate about French).  It seems that college is sold as something that will make your dreams come true, and is a way to prey on a teenager's naivety.  I'm not sure what the answer is, but I feel that some kids would be better served learning a trade if they're unsure of their passions.  There's nothing wrong with finding and pursuing your passions later in life.

elaine amj

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2015, 07:45:58 AM »
College loans are such an awful trap. I see some of the good behind it - but mostly, it's an awful burden. And the worst part of it is - it has now become as acceptable in society as a crushing mortgage. Everyone has one so why worry about it? You see students taking on more and more and more debt...and I bet a huge part of it is because it is so acceptable. At that age, most people just follow "the norm" and figure that if it's normal, that means it is probably manageable.

So few kids sit down and really calculate how much their degree will cost, what type of pay they can expect, and just HOW they are going to pay it all off. I think it's much worse in the US than here in Canada. Yes, I know people in their 40s and 50s still paying off student loans...but I hear of much crazier loans in the US where college is exponentially more expensive.

I was very very blessed - my parents paid for my education. But even back then, I had a practical bent and knew I wasn't going to go to school for a fluff degree. I had REALLY wanted to teach - but in my country, teaching is a miserably paid non-profession. So instead I got my Bachelor of Commerce degree. I ended up staying in Canada and kind of wish I had gotten my teaching degree since it is paid much better here in Canada...but all in all, I am glad I didn't. The job prospects of teachers in my city is miserable. My close friend has been on the substitute list for 6-8 years now.

LouLou

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2015, 08:02:06 AM »
My kids both went to community college for their first 2 years and then lived at home and finished up at the local university.  We paid for their entire education and my husband and I did not make a lot of money.  It can be done.  But, too many kids want to go away for college to the most expensive Universities.  Unless their parents are willing to pay for it, it should be off the table.

                                                                                       Miss Prim

Are we comfortable with the consequences of this stance as a society? Meaning that college degrees become limited to those whose parents saved for it?

My parents saved $0 for my college education, despite me clearly being college bound my entire life.  Plus, since I grew up in a HCOL area and could not live with either of my parents, going to my local community college would have actually been far more expensive than the fancy out-of-state private university that I went to because the fancy place gave me HUGE scholarships.  Even with those scholarships, and working during school, I could not have afforded college without some student loan.  I would hate

Now the student loan system we have set up is just stupid - the feds give money to any school regardless of how terrible it is (think unaccredited for-profit schools), they aren't dis-chargeable in bankruptcy, and there is no limit on the amount you can borrow.  The feds exert no pressure on the schools to keep tuition down.

Tetsuya Hondo

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2015, 08:23:36 AM »
Unless their parents are willing to pay for it, it should be off the table.
                                                                                      Miss Prim

If that were the case, I would be back in my hometown right now shoveling pig shit for minimum wage. Not everyone had the same experiences that you and your children have had. Not everyone has parents that can pay for or are even the least bit knowledgeable about these things. Some of us were actively discouraged from even looking at college, let alone given any encouragement, sensible guidance, or let alone money. Grants, student loans, summer jobs, and college work study programs were a godsend to me and to millions of others.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 09:17:21 AM by Tetsuya Hondo »

dude

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2015, 08:37:41 AM »
  • They talk about real estate.
    Housing in Boston is insane. All of the normal people are moving away. All the rich folks are buying up houses and all the poor folks have to rent. Eventually the rich will own everything and the poor will have nothing. House prices are too expensive for the average person to afford

Housing in Boston is kind of insane. Still, my biggest annoyance with my rent is that I live a bit further out (not in one of the 'fancy' neighborhoods) and if it rent were lower my SR would go up.  If I lived where I want to live...damn, rent would be high!

Having moved here from NYC back in '06, I thought the prices were eminently reasonable!  But I've also seen the value of the condo we bought in '07 skyrocket (25% or more), and hearing from other friends who rent, it does seem like it has gotten pretty pricey.  And man, the pace of development here -- holy shit.  Everywhere I look there are new buildings going up.  The corollary to this is jobs are plentiful and salaries better than average.

mrteacher

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2015, 08:47:08 AM »
  • They talk about real estate.
    Housing in Boston is insane. All of the normal people are moving away. All the rich folks are buying up houses and all the poor folks have to rent. Eventually the rich will own everything and the poor will have nothing. House prices are too expensive for the average person to afford

Housing in Boston is kind of insane. Still, my biggest annoyance with my rent is that I live a bit further out (not in one of the 'fancy' neighborhoods) and if it rent were lower my SR would go up.  If I lived where I want to live...damn, rent would be high!

Sure is! Roommates are a necessity if you want a high savings rate. I currently live with three friends, in part to reduce costs.

If you want to buy in Boston, even a simple 1 or 2 BR condo will start around $300,000. It's unbelievable!

runningthroughFIRE

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2015, 09:55:55 AM »
I have mixed feelings about the increasing amount of student loans people are carrying.  My sister and I were both fortunate enough to have parents who encouraged us to think about how practical our degrees might be while we were applying for colleges.  As long as we showed we had a plan and kept grades up, they were willing to help pay.  I was lucky enough to find out that accounting interested me and was potentially lucrative early on, and had good professors who kept me interested through college.  My sister opted for a "soft" degree in music, and had the work ethic and talent to have been a professional flutist if she wanted (still does, imo),  but she wanted a little more job security and opted for an educational specialization instead of performance.  She still plays in choirs (and on one occasion, a pretty kickass rock and roll band) on the side.  Not everyone's passions are that simple to monetize and I think we've both had a fair bit of luck, so in an effort to not be a *completely* elitist ass, I try to sympathize.  Ours are the only two cases where I know all the gooey details.

On the other hand, while I was in college I knew plenty of people who took the "passion" degree route and threw caution to the wind regarding student loans.  These were people who either 1: had absolutely no idea how big or small their loans were, or 2: didn't care and had no idea how they were going to pay it off.  Even before I started spilling the blood of starbucks cups on the MMM altar, I knew this was stupid. Over and over I found otherwise resonably intelligent people displaying reckless disregard for their own futures, which kind of kills the attempt to be sympathetic to some of these same people after they have their 'oh shit' moment.

honeybbq

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2015, 10:14:49 AM »
  • They talk about real estate.
    Housing in Boston is insane. All of the normal people are moving away. All the rich folks are buying up houses and all the poor folks have to rent. Eventually the rich will own everything and the poor will have nothing. House prices are too expensive for the average person to afford

Housing in Boston is kind of insane. Still, my biggest annoyance with my rent is that I live a bit further out (not in one of the 'fancy' neighborhoods) and if it rent were lower my SR would go up.  If I lived where I want to live...damn, rent would be high!

Sure is! Roommates are a necessity if you want a high savings rate. I currently live with three friends, in part to reduce costs.

If you want to buy in Boston, even a simple 1 or 2 BR condo will start around $300,000. It's unbelievable!

Seattle is the west coast equivalent, I think. 2 bed 1 bath starter home is minimum $500k. It's rough.

mrteacher

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2015, 10:18:43 AM »
  • They talk about real estate.
    Housing in Boston is insane. All of the normal people are moving away. All the rich folks are buying up houses and all the poor folks have to rent. Eventually the rich will own everything and the poor will have nothing. House prices are too expensive for the average person to afford

Housing in Boston is kind of insane. Still, my biggest annoyance with my rent is that I live a bit further out (not in one of the 'fancy' neighborhoods) and if it rent were lower my SR would go up.  If I lived where I want to live...damn, rent would be high!

Sure is! Roommates are a necessity if you want a high savings rate. I currently live with three friends, in part to reduce costs.

If you want to buy in Boston, even a simple 1 or 2 BR condo will start around $300,000. It's unbelievable!

Seattle is the west coast equivalent, I think. 2 bed 1 bath starter home is minimum $500k. It's rough.

It seems $300k is the entry point for any sized starter home in the Boston suburbs. $400k+ if you want good schools and a home that is not in need of substantive work.

fattest_foot

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2015, 11:37:43 AM »
Just this morning a coworker came by and was talking about how they wanted to buy a house, but that it was hard to find a place he could afford. We make a very good amount of money for the area and live in a relatively low housing cost area, so I told him "You should pretty much be able to afford anything in town."

"Not with $500 a month in student loans." Ouch.

Granted, even with $500/mo. in student loans he should have no issues, but I didn't want to lecture him on how he's likely living outside his means.

I feel lucky that neither my wife nor I had student loans. She was able to get scholarships and part time jobs to cover it, and I had the GI Bill and a part time job. I can't imagine having $6-12,000 a month (if we both had loans equal to his) being siphoned out of our paychecks every year. It's not a good excuse though, because that really only amounts to slightly more than an annual IRA contribution.

mrteacher

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2015, 11:40:31 AM »
Just this morning a coworker came by and was talking about how they wanted to buy a house, but that it was hard to find a place he could afford. We make a very good amount of money for the area and live in a relatively low housing cost area, so I told him "You should pretty much be able to afford anything in town."

"Not with $500 a month in student loans." Ouch.

Granted, even with $500/mo. in student loans he should have no issues, but I didn't want to lecture him on how he's likely living outside his means.

I feel lucky that neither my wife nor I had student loans. She was able to get scholarships and part time jobs to cover it, and I had the GI Bill and a part time job. I can't imagine having $6-12,000 a month (if we both had loans equal to his) being siphoned out of our paychecks every year. It's not a good excuse though, because that really only amounts to slightly more than an annual IRA contribution.

Thankfully I, too, do not have student loans to pay back. Several of my friends have staggering amounts of college loans (to the tune of $1,000/month), and it is crippling. It's like signing up for a mortgage at age 18. Certainly not an impossible-to-surmount roadblock, but it makes even basic financial freedom/flexibility hard to achieve, nevermind FIRE.

Lady Fordragon

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2015, 12:58:45 PM »
I had about $17k in student loans, which I paid off in a year.  I also paid off the parent loans (~$30k) that my Mom took out on my behalf.  Now $47k in student loans is by no means a meager amount; however, it's definitely a lot less than what I hear from other people.  (Note:  This amount would have been either nothing or less than $10k if I had opted to commute ~3 hours/day via public transportation.  I don't regret living on/near campus, but I do regret not looking into renting a nearby apartment for much less than the college was charging.)  When it came time to choose a grad school, I opted for the free one in LCOL area that was paying me a stipend.  Overall, I thoroughly enjoyed my college experience, but have definitely learned from my past choices.

Kaspian

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2015, 01:08:14 PM »

I'm about 3/4 of the way through. Overall it has a strange vibe to it. A mix of anger, disappointment, sadness, and despair even.


I hear this so much these days.  Is it because they spent their youth coddled and sheltered?  "What's that you say?  Life is hard?  Yeah, no guff.  Now put on your big girl panties and deal with it."    You might want to watch some early 90s interviews with Nirvana fans and ask them if life was unicorns and rainbows.  Or British 1970s kids who listened to the Sex Pistols and ask them how prospects for future and joy were.   Some things don't change--now go write some good angry songs, sleep on your friend's floor, and drink lots of beer like the rest of us did.

sol

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2015, 01:36:46 PM »
Seattle is the west coast equivalent, I think. 2 bed 1 bath starter home is minimum $500k. It's rough.

Yes, but the Seattle commuting scene is better.  That same house 30 minutes from downtown Seattle is only $200k.  Boston seems to have fewer outlying options.

Landlord2015

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2015, 02:07:27 PM »

I'm about 3/4 of the way through. Overall it has a strange vibe to it. A mix of anger, disappointment, sadness, and despair even.


I hear this so much these days.  Is it because they spent their youth coddled and sheltered?  "What's that you say?  Life is hard?  Yeah, no guff.  Now put on your big girl panties and deal with it."    You might want to watch some early 90s interviews with Nirvana fans and ask them if life was unicorns and rainbows.
Yeah no doubt hardships have been in youths to many. For example I had to do mandatory(MUST DO!) military service not that I have something against guns, but it was not fun. I remember one classmate who forgot to come to military enlisting. Finland police went to his home and brutally by force took him to military enlisting. We are neighbors to Russia. You can opt for civil service i.e free worker but military service is shorter and  I did military service and it ain't no fun camping in the woods thing.

That said even I recognize my army experience is NOTHING in hardship it did not cost me money or ruin my life.
The system in America is hard you do have less tax in America then Europe, but there is a problem.

Scholarslip: A documentary about the student debt crisis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFY-PgPA-Uk

Now these students do get my sympathy. I only wonder why not more students literally try to get a sugardaddy or sugarmom from MMM forums... I mean some of them are desperate.

Look I am not an angel in morals, but I do feel sympathy for this problem and I hope it gets better for students in America.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 02:11:59 PM by Landlord2015 »

partgypsy

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2015, 02:07:56 PM »
I remember thinking with horror when I was college-age going to a community college for 2 years, then the "real" college. But for many people that is a better use of their time and money than a traditional 4 year college. It also ticks me off that colleges are spending on so many things that make them look better, but doesn't really improve the education or the college graduate's ability to get a job afterwards. Maybe someone needs to create a mustachian college, that dispenses with huge expensive buildings, landscaping, super expensive room and board plans, also has electives on plumbing, electricity, budgeting, home ec etc. Basically a college when kids get out they are assured to have at least some real world skills. 

RFAAOATB

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2015, 03:36:16 PM »
At what point does the cost of student debt outweigh the benefits of a degree?  Degree inflation has made a degree both mandatory and less valued at the same time.  Considering most jobs don't really require a degree, and job growth has been in the low wage sector, being saddled with debt is a lot more worrisome now than before.

Perhaps we should just stop many to all student loans and let colleges lower tuition to what students can afford or go out of business.  If you aren't smart enough to get a scholarship or a grant from the Bank of Mom and Dad, then college isn't for you. 

Wilson Hall

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2015, 07:35:25 PM »

I'm about 3/4 of the way through. Overall it has a strange vibe to it. A mix of anger, disappointment, sadness, and despair even.


I hear this so much these days.  Is it because they spent their youth coddled and sheltered?  "What's that you say?  Life is hard?  Yeah, no guff.  Now put on your big girl panties and deal with it."    You might want to watch some early 90s interviews with Nirvana fans and ask them if life was unicorns and rainbows.  Or British 1970s kids who listened to the Sex Pistols and ask them how prospects for future and joy were.   Some things don't change--now go write some good angry songs, sleep on your friend's floor, and drink lots of beer like the rest of us did.

Great advice! Graduating into the recession of the early '90s, missing out on the stock market run of the late 20th century because I didn't start saving for retirement until I was out of grad school at almost 30...yeah, I have some gripes. But so does everybody else. It's like one of my sixth-grade teachers said when any of us started acting up: you put your pants on one leg at a time, just like everyone else.

Now drink that beer and quit whining.

coppertop

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2015, 08:43:21 AM »
My kids both went to community college for their first 2 years and then lived at home and finished up at the local university.  We paid for their entire education and my husband and I did not make a lot of money.  It can be done.  But, too many kids want to go away for college to the most expensive Universities.  Unless their parents are willing to pay for it, it should be off the table.

Personally, I don't think kids should be allowed to take out huge student loans for college.  Kids under 21 do not make the best decisions about things and then when they do wise up, (if they ever do) they are suddenly saddled with huge amounts of debt. 

Parents are not very helpful either about steering their kids into fields that will pay decent money. 

                                                                                       Miss Prim

I totally agree with Miss Prim.  All three of my kids started out at community-type colleges and transferred to universities later.  Daughter transferred to private university here in PA and because of top grades in community, immediately had her tuition halved.  She had some grants as well and ultimately had a stipend to obtain her Ph.D. in science.  Older son started out at community and transferred to Temple; he paid his own way by working his butt off at a car dealership full time days while attending full time nights.  Hard work, but he did it and ultimately became an attorney.  Younger son started out at a state commuter school and transferred to private university, where he also had tuition slashed due to top grades.  He was fortunate to have a stepmother by then who paid his tuition.  All three kids had some loans, but very small and manageable ones; law school loans were the worst for son #1, but he has paid huge amounts off already, as each time he won a case for his clients, he received a large amount of money, with which he has paid down his loans.  Every one of them held paying jobs while they were students and still kept their grades up.  I guess you can tell I am really proud of my kids, particularly since I only have an Associates' degree myself and my father did not even graduate from high school.

JustAChild

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2015, 09:17:03 AM »
As a teen who will enter the college system next year (albeit in Germany), I think one of the main issues I see in my generation is that people feel entitled/don't want to give up on the things they grew up with. Things like a clothes from a second hand shop, an old(read small) tv or a rustbucket car seem like a downgrade compared to what they have now/had as kids. I personally can't wait to go out on my own and become independent though :)

honeybbq

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2015, 09:20:11 AM »
Seattle is the west coast equivalent, I think. 2 bed 1 bath starter home is minimum $500k. It's rough.

Yes, but the Seattle commuting scene is better.  That same house 30 minutes from downtown Seattle is only $200k.  Boston seems to have fewer outlying options.

30 minutes or 30 miles?? LOL. Seattle is one of the worst commuting cities in every top 10 list I've ever seen! So time wise you have to quantify it with traffic times - sometimes 30 minutes won't get you out of downtown!

But yes, you are correct,  30 MILES from Seattle, you are golden!  Certainly the density of the population is higher on the east cost in that area.

sol

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2015, 09:52:45 AM »
30 minutes or 30 miles?? LOL. Seattle is one of the worst commuting cities in every top 10 list I've ever seen! So time wise you have to quantify it with traffic times - sometimes 30 minutes won't get you out of downtown!

But yes, you are correct,  30 MILES from Seattle, you are golden!  Certainly the density of the population is higher on the east cost in that area.

I think the two are very related.  Seattle commuting traffic is worse than average precisely because the gradient in real estate prices is steeper.  People will put up with a pretty unpleasant commute to save a quarter million dollars on housing.  Even MMM's anti-commuting blog post seems to favor the clown commute around here.

mm1970

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2015, 09:55:31 AM »
Unless their parents are willing to pay for it, it should be off the table.
                                                                                      Miss Prim

If that were the case, I would be back in my hometown right now shoveling pig shit for minimum wage. Not everyone had the same experiences that you and your children have had. Not everyone has parents that can pay for or are even the least bit knowledgeable about these things. Some of us were actively discouraged from even looking at college, let alone given any encouragement, sensible guidance, or let alone money. Grants, student loans, summer jobs, and college work study programs were a godsend to me and to millions of others.
I have to say though, that Miss Prim has a point.

I borrowed money for college (some), but most of my education was paid for by my uncle.  Uncle Sam, that is.  Honestly ROTC and the military academies and the GI bill are a way (if not THE) way that many poor, rural kids go to college.

Most of the problem here was pointed out by someone else - that we let 17 year olds make $100,000 decisions.  Really, there should be a "guideline" set out and taught in HS.  And maybe limits, like borrowing for a mortgage (Your income/ debt ratio, etc. etc.)

I don't know the answer, but something like:
1.  What is your major
2.  What is your planned job
3.  What is the typical starting salary of your job with your major from your chosen institution
4.  What percentage of students graduating get a job in this field.

So, let's say you get an accounting degree from NC State.  The average starting salary is $40k a year, and 70% of the students work in the field.  That means $40k x 0.7 = $28k.
There, you can borrow $28k.  Or $42k.  (1.5x)

I know that personally, I didn't know what the hell I was doing signing loan papers.  My mother worked at a bank and didnt' either.  Nobody in my family had gone to college.  I graduated with NO IDEA how much I had borrowed ($11k.)  I'm just lucky that I was smart and cheap and conservative, and decided that 5 years in the Navy was a small price to pay for 3 years of tuition paid for at a top-10 engineering school.  Damn lucky.

Many kids aren't practical (and they are young), and many parents don't know how to navigate the college funding thing either, because they didn't go through it themselves.

coppertop

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2015, 10:53:08 AM »
My niece has three undergrad degrees.  One is in art history, one is in English, and I forget what the third is.  She works in retail.  What a waste that was in terms of remuneration.  Kids should have more guidance in choosing their majors.  How many are coming out of college with degrees in social work and the like and wind up flipping burgers because their fields are saturated?  Ridiculous.  They should major in something that will provide them with a means to obtain work that will sustain them; if they are interested in art, it should be a minor for them.  They are coming out of college with useless degrees and student loan debt of six figures.

OneCoolCat

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2015, 11:20:59 AM »
I honestly don't think anyone who graduated college pre-2008 really understand how bad college education has become.  I graduated in 2009 on a free ride so I was fortunate in that regard.  But the young people going to college today undoubtily have it worse and it's not their fault.

Tuition has skyrocketed in the last decade.  These students have been pushed toward college since they were in grade school.  They have been told they were going to college all their lives so it was ingrained in them.  Things were different when their parents told them college was their only option; tuition was affordable and jobs were plentiful.  Every year tuition has increased significantly since and there are fewer jobs available for recent grads and they pay even less.  Schools lured students in with colorful ads boasting about their employment numbers and the "value" of their degrees.  You can't entirely fault these young adults, the precedent of how ridiculous it was to pay sticker at a private college wasn't there when most of them enrolled.  When people started to realize college had become ridiculously expensive, the colleges presented them with misleading data on the employment prospects of their grads.

I went to a state university for law school and paid sticker.  I went at a time when information on the real value of a JD was just becaming mainstream so I chose a cheap school with legit great employment prospects.  Even there, my tuition had gone up significantly every year.  My first year was 17k, second year was 18.5k, and my final year was 20k.  I took less credits for the second two years of law school as well.  This year tuition was over 21k and I suspect the trend will continue.  I worked throughout law school and still graduated with 50k in student loans.  It was worth it for me but at this rate it won't be worth it for new students even at my tier 1 institution because he in-state-tuition is becoming insane.  There are real problems with what is happening to our high education institutions and it's not just limited to private for-profit colleges.

FenderBender

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2015, 11:57:43 AM »
It boggles the mind that you have to be 21 to play a $5 hand of blackjack in Vegas, but a 17 year old can strap on $100,000 of student loan debt and nobody seems to care.

18 year olds can star in a porn movie too getting gangbanged over and over again often done in CA but can't drive 2.5 hours north east to LV to play black jack.   no body cares about these folks either.   i keep having to remind myself as i watch that pretty thin blonde just out of high school.... it's art. 

18 year olds drive tanks and blow shit up in foreign lands yet can't drink a beer at home.

14 years olds can have an abortion without parental consent yet can't see an R rated movie....probably can't have a tooth extracted without parental consent but the baby, no problem.

those are just off the top of my head.

coppertop

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2015, 12:03:23 PM »
Another problem is that so many employers will not even consider an applicant unless they have that four-year degree.  My husband has a certificate as a medical technologist, and the governing organization for his discipline is pushing hard to require degrees for certification in the future.  Ditto in my original field: paralegal studies.  I went to certificate programs, but the paralegal society is pushing to require bachelors' degrees.  The trouble is those jobs don't pay enough money to justify spending so many thousands of dollars on education.  Villanova has a paralegal program, but those graduates don't make more money than the paralegals who went to the community college's certificate programs unless they get hired by the elite firms.

I was promoted from within and although I do not have an accounting degree, I am the controller of the organization.  I learned on the job and daresay I am doing fine.  There are firms who will not consider a legal assistant who does not have a bachelor's degree. 

mm1970

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2015, 12:52:34 PM »
Another problem is that so many employers will not even consider an applicant unless they have that four-year degree.  My husband has a certificate as a medical technologist, and the governing organization for his discipline is pushing hard to require degrees for certification in the future.  Ditto in my original field: paralegal studies.  I went to certificate programs, but the paralegal society is pushing to require bachelors' degrees.  The trouble is those jobs don't pay enough money to justify spending so many thousands of dollars on education.  Villanova has a paralegal program, but those graduates don't make more money than the paralegals who went to the community college's certificate programs unless they get hired by the elite firms.

I was promoted from within and although I do not have an accounting degree, I am the controller of the organization.  I learned on the job and daresay I am doing fine.  There are firms who will not consider a legal assistant who does not have a bachelor's degree.
and if you ever wanted to get a new job, you would have many fewer options.  I work with many people without degrees, and some companies will not even consider you.  One guy is mid-50's with 30 years of experience in facilities management, but only about 1/4 of companies would consider hiring him.

mm1970

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2015, 12:58:32 PM »
Quote
I honestly don't think anyone who graduated college pre-2008 really understand how bad college education has become.  I graduated in 2009 on a free ride so I was fortunate in that regard.  But the young people going to college today undoubtily have it worse and it's not their fault.

Tuition has skyrocketed in the last decade.
I'd be interested in actual statistics. 

Granted, I went to an expensive school.  On a whim last year I looked up the tuition.  I compared it to the tuition when I attended, and did a little excel magic on it.  Tuition has gone up exactly 5% a  year since 1988.  But it was true back then too.  (that's average per year).  When I was there it went up by that amount or more, each year.  From $12k to $13k to $14k to $15.25k (1988 to 1992).

I think the thing that really harms more recent graduates is the saturation aspect.  I've hired many a new engineer who graduated post 2008.  They are all doing just fine.  But they have engineering degrees.

The percentage and flat numbers of graduates with "any degree" has gone up. So even though jobs like receptionists require a degree (when they didn't before), there is more competition.  So there is "debt" without a higher paying job at the other end.  Receptionists don't all of a sudden get paid more if they have a degree.  Not in my industry.

Kaspian

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2015, 02:12:10 PM »

Great advice! Graduating into the recession of the early '90s...


Is it because we were such a small chunk of the population (not Boomers or Millennials) that people just don't remember how horrible it was for students and new grads from about '89-93?  It's like that recession never happened or something.  With that and Iraq War Part 1 underway, it felt like the end of the fucking world.  Parents were very much not accepting and not okay with 20-something olds  (mostly unemployed with student loans) moving back home to live.  Young people communed together like rats--couch-surfing everywhere, pooling money for beer/smokes, making occasional trips to food banks...  Recent grads lucky enough to find a job were all doing stuff like waitressing, hotel night clerk, dishwashing, all that fun stuff an unemployed teenager could do.  And now I sound like a cranky old man saying, "Back in my day it was bad, blah, blah, blah..,"  But I'm tired of people saying, "You had it easy, blah, blah, blah..." 

therethere

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2015, 02:41:58 PM »
It's no wonder that student loan debt is out of control. We're asking people to make the biggest financial decision of their lives at the age of 17! Of course they're going to screw it up.

It boggles the mind that you have to be 21 to play a $5 hand of blackjack in Vegas, but a 17 year old can strap on $100,000 of student loan debt and nobody seems to care.

I know I'm quoting from way far back. But this has always been a sore spot for me and most people fail to recognize how young you are when you are signing up for loans. At that age (esp in middle class suburb america) you have barely made any decisions for yourself yet other than what elective class to take. You  decide on the schools you are applying to your junior or very beginning of senior year. At the start of the decision process you're what 16? Most kids can only just get their first job at 16. There's not much of a concept of how much full-time salaries are. So you are 16 and pretty much agreeing to a school and making plans. Then you're 17 when you are signing loan docs, 16 when you are "making the choice" (really following whatever parents or counselors tell you to do and major disappointment if you back out of it).

I was 17 for the first semester of college. Worse than not being able to smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, or gamble.... I couldn't even DRIVE AFTER 9PM!!!!!!
and they let me (and acted like it was no big deal on top of that) take out 100k in loans (50k at 9% interest rate WTF?).

Luckily I did not get a completely useless degree. But I only went to college because that's what was supposed to be next. There was little to no thought about what job I was targeting or what my interests were. To be honest, I had no clue even what engineering was until my 2nd or 3rd year. The system fails because there is zero guidance.


mxt0133

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2015, 03:00:05 PM »
I just want to clarify some points here that I think are distorting the conversation.  First of a 17 year old cannot takeout 100s of thousands of dollars in loans.  As per the Federal Student Aid site dependent first year students are limited to $5,500 a year increasing until you are third year and beyond at $7,500 a year.  After that then those become private loans that required a co-signer, ie parent, to get the 30-50k first year loan amounts everyone is quoting.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/types/loans/subsidized-unsubsidized

Second, everyone is quoting what I call the MSRP price of college this is the published tuition rate, there is also what the actual students pay for after all the financial aid and scholarships are applied.  This has dramatically gone up as well as the cost of college to a point where some institutions like Harvard, Princeton, and Stanford completely wave the tuition if you make below a certain income.

So yes tuition is going up but so are the financial aid packages and scholarships.  Seems like quite a few people on this forum received scholarships or some kind of tuition reduction based on merit.  I say that even though there is a form of degree inflation, those that are capable will still be able to get a college education at reasonable prices, because guess what college compete for those students to keep up their rankings.

What is happening now that is new is the greater number of people being convinced that they need to go to college to have a future, without having any idea what to actually study or how much they will actually earn, i.e. for profit colleges or degrees in underwater basket weaving.

use2betrix

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2015, 04:46:42 PM »
While college is expensive and rising, I know a LOT of students who were using student loan money for far beyond just what's required. I know some that bought vehicles with that money, amongst many other things. I spent the hell out of some money through school. I ended up changing my major several times then leaving and going to a tech school. I left that with a total of 40k in student loans. Had I of been "smart" I would have skipped the other college, not needed a loan for the tech school, and finished 2 years earlier debt free.

Hindsight is always 20/20 of course and when I finished high school I obviously wasn't exactly sure what I wanted to do. My payments were 550/mo til I started knocking out some loans. I ended up paying them off after around 5 years or so.

While my loans pale in comparison to many, it is what it is. I took out the loans, I signed for them (parents co-signed for some) so I made some sacrifices and paid them back. That's life. I'm amazed at the amount of people who think they got some sort of raw-deal. I know it's an unpopular opinion here to hold anyone under 25 accountable for their futures, but I will again resort back to that opinion. Of course, there's the obvious occasional exceptions, but those are the outliers.

TheBuddha

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2015, 12:59:46 AM »
Enjoyable reading material on this general subject: http://professorconfess.blogspot.com/

ChaseJuggler

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2015, 04:00:54 AM »
9%?!

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


dude

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2015, 06:24:06 AM »
Unless their parents are willing to pay for it, it should be off the table.
                                                                                      Miss Prim

If that were the case, I would be back in my hometown right now shoveling pig shit for minimum wage. Not everyone had the same experiences that you and your children have had. Not everyone has parents that can pay for or are even the least bit knowledgeable about these things. Some of us were actively discouraged from even looking at college, let alone given any encouragement, sensible guidance, or let alone money. Grants, student loans, summer jobs, and college work study programs were a godsend to me and to millions of others.
I have to say though, that Miss Prim has a point.

I borrowed money for college (some), but most of my education was paid for by my uncle.  Uncle Sam, that is.  Honestly ROTC and the military academies and the GI bill are a way (if not THE) way that many poor, rural kids go to college.

Most of the problem here was pointed out by someone else - that we let 17 year olds make $100,000 decisions.  Really, there should be a "guideline" set out and taught in HS.  And maybe limits, like borrowing for a mortgage (Your income/ debt ratio, etc. etc.)

I don't know the answer, but something like:
1.  What is your major
2.  What is your planned job
3.  What is the typical starting salary of your job with your major from your chosen institution
4.  What percentage of students graduating get a job in this field.

So, let's say you get an accounting degree from NC State.  The average starting salary is $40k a year, and 70% of the students work in the field.  That means $40k x 0.7 = $28k.
There, you can borrow $28k.  Or $42k.  (1.5x)

I know that personally, I didn't know what the hell I was doing signing loan papers.  My mother worked at a bank and didnt' either.  Nobody in my family had gone to college.  I graduated with NO IDEA how much I had borrowed ($11k.)  I'm just lucky that I was smart and cheap and conservative, and decided that 5 years in the Navy was a small price to pay for 3 years of tuition paid for at a top-10 engineering school.  Damn lucky.

Many kids aren't practical (and they are young), and many parents don't know how to navigate the college funding thing either, because they didn't go through it themselves.

I didn't start college until I was 25.  I chose a cheaper state university in my home state (tuition was @$2500/semester back then) because I was paying for it out of pocket.  Excelling at that state university not only earned me a full academic scholarship there, but got me into a Top 15 law school (Georgetown), where many of my fellow students were Ivy Leaguers.  In this day and age, it really is the way to go.  As with anything in life, you get what you put into it.

dude

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2015, 06:28:23 AM »
I honestly don't think anyone who graduated college pre-2008 really understand how bad college education has become.  I graduated in 2009 on a free ride so I was fortunate in that regard.  But the young people going to college today undoubtily have it worse and it's not their fault.

Tuition has skyrocketed in the last decade.  These students have been pushed toward college since they were in grade school.  They have been told they were going to college all their lives so it was ingrained in them.  Things were different when their parents told them college was their only option; tuition was affordable and jobs were plentiful.  Every year tuition has increased significantly since and there are fewer jobs available for recent grads and they pay even less.  Schools lured students in with colorful ads boasting about their employment numbers and the "value" of their degrees.  You can't entirely fault these young adults, the precedent of how ridiculous it was to pay sticker at a private college wasn't there when most of them enrolled.  When people started to realize college had become ridiculously expensive, the colleges presented them with misleading data on the employment prospects of their grads.

I went to a state university for law school and paid sticker.  I went at a time when information on the real value of a JD was just becaming mainstream so I chose a cheap school with legit great employment prospects.  Even there, my tuition had gone up significantly every year.  My first year was 17k, second year was 18.5k, and my final year was 20k.  I took less credits for the second two years of law school as well.  This year tuition was over 21k and I suspect the trend will continue.  I worked throughout law school and still graduated with 50k in student loans.  It was worth it for me but at this rate it won't be worth it for new students even at my tier 1 institution because he in-state-tuition is becoming insane.  There are real problems with what is happening to our high education institutions and it's not just limited to private for-profit colleges.

I came out of Georgetown in 1997 with @$75,000 in student loans, and that was with generous grants of around $9k/year.  Tuition back then was $21k my first year, and went up each year by a couple grand.  Of course, the legal employment picture back then was quite a bit better than it has been for the past decade or so.  Bottom line is I don't regret going to law school, even with the debt (still have $15k of it, but at 2.32%, I'm not in any hurry to pay it off, even though I could tomorrow if I wanted to).

Miss Prim

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2015, 06:37:44 AM »
My kids both went to community college for their first 2 years and then lived at home and finished up at the local university.  We paid for their entire education and my husband and I did not make a lot of money.  It can be done.  But, too many kids want to go away for college to the most expensive Universities.  Unless their parents are willing to pay for it, it should be off the table.

Personally, I don't think kids should be allowed to take out huge student loans for college.  Kids under 21 do not make the best decisions about things and then when they do wise up, (if they ever do) they are suddenly saddled with huge amounts of debt. 

Parents are not very helpful either about steering their kids into fields that will pay decent money. 

                                                                                       Miss Prim

I think some people misunderstood what I was trying to say.  I was talking about kids who could go to a state university but WANT to go to a private college that cost 4 times what the state university would cost.  That is what I meant by it should be off the table.  I would never have paid for some of our expensive private colleges for my kids  unless they had full scholarships or were willing to wait and save up money by working.  By the way, they also held jobs while going to college as we made them pay for their books.  I think it means more to students if they have something invested in their education. 

What I didn't mean was that if parents aren't willing to pay for college at all or can't, that someone shouldn't go.  In those cases, student loans, scholarships and working are the only options, but I think student loans should be kept to a minimum.  Sorry if I offended anyone who had to struggle to get through college with no help from parents.   That was not my intention.     

                                                                              Miss Prim

Landlord2015

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #47 on: November 25, 2015, 07:14:39 AM »
"Back in my day it was bad, blah, blah, blah..,"  But I'm tired of people saying, "You had it easy, blah, blah, blah..."
Fine you had a tough youth. We believe you. However it is still worse today and you fail to see it.

The system in America is hard you do have less tax in America then Europe, but there is a problem with study fees.

Scholarslip: A documentary about the student debt crisis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFY-PgPA-Uk

Now these students do get my sympathy. I only wonder why not more students literally try to get a sugardaddy or sugarmom from MMM forums... I mean some of them are desperate.

Look I am not an angel in morals, but I do feel sympathy for this problem and I hope it gets better for students in America.

Miss Prim you sound like a nice and wise parent, but unfortunately some students do not have wealthy parents or get abandonden by parents.

The horror stories are those that get so big debt and they never manage to pay it off. Another typical horror story is that they get their degree, but for rest of their lives work at some fast food place or something else that has nothing to do with their studies.

Coldly said perhaps you should make prostitution legal it would help some students and I am from Europe with prostitution legal country.

Now that is not what I wish that students use desperately prostitution, but how to fix the root of problem that is difficult. It is not the governments fault and it is not the parents fault it is those greedy teaching places.

Question could USA convert to say typical Europe model? Yes in theory, but that would require lots of law changes and a big budget support from the government. The whole process would be very complicated and I am not expert enough to evaluate how that could possibly be done. On the other hand you have lower tax in USA and world is grey there is no perfect country.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 07:30:11 AM by Landlord2015 »

Gyosho

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2015, 08:53:02 AM »
Quote
I honestly don't think anyone who graduated college pre-2008 really understand how bad college education has become.  I graduated in 2009 on a free ride so I was fortunate in that regard.  But the young people going to college today undoubtily have it worse and it's not their fault.

Tuition has skyrocketed in the last decade.
I'd be interested in actual statistics. 

Granted, I went to an expensive school.  On a whim last year I looked up the tuition.  I compared it to the tuition when I attended, and did a little excel magic on it.  Tuition has gone up exactly 5% a  year since 1988.  But it was true back then too.  (that's average per year).  When I was there it went up by that amount or more, each year.  From $12k to $13k to $14k to $15.25k (1988 to 1992).


I graduated  in college in 1985. My tuition was $1000 a year. If tuition had only been raised according to the rate of inflation, (I used the inflation calculator at dollartimes.com) tuition at that institution would now be $2229. Instead it is over $7000.

Went to graduate school for a few years, and finally finished in 1993. My total undergraduate and graduate school loans were $23000. According to the same inflation calculator, that amount in today's dollars is $38000.

I feel very lucky that I paid off my student loans in 4 years, and have been debt-free ever since. It would have been much harder if I had been paying today's inflated tuition/fees/administrative costs.


Prairie Stash

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Re: Behold, the agony of the non-Mustachian's struggles =[
« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2015, 09:07:46 AM »
I went to university and left with a loan a little under $40k, initially the time I paid $500/month for repayment (it decreased with time). It delayed my path to home ownership, investing etc. However it also allowed me a chance to break the cycle of poverty, being poor sucks more than paying off loans. I'm a fan of Canada's Student Loan program. 

Some people buy lottery tickets, I bet my loan money on education. Its a shame not everyone's experience is positive, there always will be an element of personal responsibility for life's choices.

I remember despairing when I was 17 that I was screwed in life (relative to my classmates). Initially I was unaware of loans and lined up work doing manual labour after high school, I almost left early because there wasn't much point in finishing I thought. I skipped a few days of school to pick up work, I needed cash more than biology. I wasn't looking forward to 40 years of labour so I did finish high school, overall high school is pretty fun and work generally was not. When I got my loans it gave me an opportunity to succeed, it never guaranteed I would though. I realized I always had the labour job as a fall back, it was motivation to not fail.

Although loans are a burden what would the majority of peoples lives be like if they hadn't received those loans? How many doctors, engineers, teachers and other professionals would be doing manual labour because they never had the opportunity for University? Although the first few years after school are tough (low wages as a junior employee) how does that compare with lifelong expectations? One of my fears with the current loan crisis is it will cause exceptionally gifted students to not pursue advanced degrees as doctors etc., all this pessimism might have made me reconsider.